Author Topic: Poetry Page (Read 725185 times)

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4760 on:** November 16, 2016, 01:04:40 PM »

Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets

2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.

April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.

A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.

Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Discussion Leaders: Barb

bellamarie · « **Reply #4761 on:** November 16, 2016, 04:38:30 PM »

Sonnet 138

That she might think me some untutored youth
Unlearnèd in the world’s false subtleties.
Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
Although she knows my days are past the best,

These lines make me see him writing in his own little world of fantasy, because he knows he is old yet he says "vanity thinking she thinks me young." Maybe he is struggling with aging, and these sonnets are his way of recapturing his youth.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4762 on:** November 16, 2016, 07:02:27 PM »

Yes I think you are on to something - sounds like a guy going through a mid-life crisis doesn't it...

PatH · « **Reply #4763 on:** November 16, 2016, 07:40:05 PM »

I have trouble with the wording if this poem. He starts out by saying they're both lying, but then:

But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
And wherefore say not I that I am old?

which I take to mean neither has denied their nature.

Anyway, whatever their arrangement, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

PatH · « **Reply #4764 on:** November 16, 2016, 07:41:57 PM »

Shakespeare keeps calling himself old, but although it isn't known exactly when the sonnets were written, I gather it was somewhat early in his career.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4765 on:** November 16, 2016, 10:25:48 PM »

Anyway, whatever their arrangement, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4766 on:** November 16, 2016, 11:07:59 PM »

Yes, he keeps referring to himself as old, and I have read that the sonnets were written when he was in his late twenties-early thirties, so my theory is that the sonnets are not autobiographical, but of his own fantasies which he can make himself be old and young, if he is indeed seeing himself as both "Wills" in the sonnets. I keep getting a strange feeling he is writing in the first and third persona. It's not a stretch for me to see Shakespeare as a narcissist.

PatH.,

Quote

I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Now that's a line I haven't heard in years!

These sonnets just get creepier and creepier IMO.

Frybabe · « **Reply #4767 on:** November 17, 2016, 06:42:24 AM »

Well, I don't think it was autobiographical. Shakespeare married at 18 Anne Hathaway who was 25. (That may be where the "untutored youth" comment comes in.) He died at age 52 which, at that time, was probably considered old, but these days is only middle age.

I like the sonnet. It shows a certain forgiveness and tolerance (maybe even compassion) toward and by each other. It seems a way of saying in spite of our faults we love each other and will overlook these faults for the sake of love. I assume that the lies involved are small, rather than major.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4768 on:** November 17, 2016, 09:44:25 AM »

Frybabe - glad to see you - taken alone this Sonnet and circumstance is filled with compassion, forgiveness and tolerance that in spite of their faults they love each other - I think the several Sonnets preceding gives another slant - he has been lusting after this woman who is not a love in the sense of a loving partner but someone he has grappled his own feelings over this sexual relationship.

There is a young male lover who he writes about over and over in many of the Sonnets that has also bedded the lady. The issue is a ménage à trois and his own desires knowing she is unfaithful and says she loves him but he knows she does not - I think in that context the Sonnet is part of a storyline and beyond the life experience of Pat, Bellamarie and myself - so we joke and had some fun with it.

However, so glad you could read the Sonnet with fresh eyes and see it separate from the storyline - it does include the kind of phrases any of us would want to hear from a loving companion - so thanks for giving us another viewpoint.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4769 on:** November 17, 2016, 09:45:05 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXIX

O, call not me to justify the wrong
That thy unkindness lays upon my heart;
Wound me not with thine eye but with thy tongue;
Use power with power and slay me not by art.
Tell me thou lovest elsewhere, but in my sight,
Dear heart, forbear to glance thine eye aside:
What need'st thou wound with cunning when thy might
Is more than my o'er-press'd defense can bide?
Let me excuse thee: ah! my love well knows
Her pretty looks have been mine enemies,
And therefore from my face she turns my foes,
That they elsewhere might dart their injuries:
Yet do not so; but since I am near slain,
Kill me outright with looks and rid my pain.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 139
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnmGUtoe2XI

bellamarie · « **Reply #4770 on:** November 17, 2016, 02:42:34 PM »

Frybabe, Thanks for dropping in.

I have to say with reading all the sonnets prior, there is no love in these sonnets. A whole lot of infidelity, self gratification and obsession. The lies are not small by any measure, but because they all seem deplorable, they are able to lust for each other.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4771 on:** November 17, 2016, 08:56:27 PM »

He is still begging for her attention and in the process puts himself down for her to walk all over him. Ah so... he does get in a space doesn't he that we have to listen to his moaning - part of it I think is we do not esteem his choice and yet, we do not want to throw him, the poet aside - let's just imagine he is writing all this to flush out a character for one of his plays.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4772 on:** November 17, 2016, 11:32:59 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXX

Be wise as thou art cruel; do not press
My tongue-tied patience with too much disdain;
Lest sorrow lend me words and words express
The manner of my pity-wanting pain.
If I might teach thee wit, better it were,
Though not to love, yet, love, to tell me so;
As testy sick men, when their deaths be near,
No news but health from their physicians know;
For if I should despair, I should grow mad,
And in my madness might speak ill of thee:
Now this ill-wresting world is grown so bad,
Mad slanderers by mad ears believed be,
That I may not be so, nor thou belied,
Bear thine eyes straight, though thy proud heart go wide.

Shakespeare Sonnet 140
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GbIiIKCTE

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4773 on:** November 18, 2016, 06:20:44 PM »

The dichotomy between this poem and his pity-wanting pain compared to the book we are reading Two Old Women is striking and makes him sound silly and inept.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4774 on:** November 18, 2016, 09:27:03 PM »

Whoa..... now he is pretty much blackmailing her to chose him, or else he may decide to turn against her, and slander her because as he states,

Mad slanderers by mad ears believed be,

This is what is wrong with the world today, if you don't do what I want I will release falsehoods about you, and once it is out in the media it will be believed whether it is slander or not. He is a very nasty person, and sounding desperate.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4775 on:** November 19, 2016, 03:49:29 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXI

In faith, I do not love thee with mine eyes,
For they in thee a thousand errors note;
But 'tis my heart that loves what they despise,
Who in despite of view is pleased to dote;
Nor are mine ears with thy tongue's tune delighted,
Nor tender feeling, to base touches prone,
Nor taste, nor smell, desire to be invited
To any sensual feast with thee alone:
But my five wits nor my five senses can
Dissuade one foolish heart from serving thee,
Who leaves unsway'd the likeness of a man,
Thy proud hearts slave and vassal wretch to be:
Only my plague thus far I count my gain,
That she that makes me sin awards me pain.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 141
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ-9ArBYooM

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4776 on:** November 19, 2016, 10:28:58 PM »

I did learn from reading this there are 5 wits in addition to the 5 senses - still remember being a school child learning the senses - touching our arm to learn the sense of touch - but never heard of the 5 wits - well here they are: Five Wits (1) Common sense, (2) imagination, (3) fantasy, (4) estimation, and (5) memory.

I could have quite the discussion about common sense that in my thinking is simply common based on a shared tradition, experiences and learning. So that what is common sense for us may not be common sense for a tribe living in Mongolia.

I believe we are near the end of his poems about this woman who has tantalized him.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4777 on:** November 19, 2016, 10:53:33 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXII

Love is my sin and thy dear virtue hate,
Hate of my sin, grounded on sinful loving:
O, but with mine compare thou thine own state,
And thou shalt find it merits not reproving;
Or, if it do, not from those lips of thine,
That have profaned their scarlet ornaments
And seal'd false bonds of love as oft as mine,
Robb'd others' beds' revenues of their rents.
Be it lawful I love thee, as thou lovest those
Whom thine eyes woo as mine importune thee:
Root pity in thy heart, that when it grows
Thy pity may deserve to pitied be.
If thou dost seek to have what thou dost hide,
By self-example mayst thou be denied!

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 142
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ-9ArBYooM

bellamarie · « **Reply #4778 on:** November 20, 2016, 08:32:15 PM »

I sure hope this self deprecating, and lust for this woman with all her sins and infidelities are coming to an end. He speaks the word love but it's hard for me to see love in any of these past sonnets. He admits she is as deplorable as he is, so they deserve each other, yet she wants nothing to do with him. Is his obsession for her the same as his obsession for the young boy, wanting what is unattainable? Again, I will say I don't think these sonnets were written of a real life person, I think he indulged himself in the fantasies of these lovers and yes, possibly used the sonnets to help him with writing his plays, or vice versa, used his plays to to write these self indulgences.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4779 on:** November 21, 2016, 04:58:31 AM »

Bellamarie there are some characters in some of the plays I have seen or read that are filled with self-indulgence but they are only once character among many so it is not as all consuming as these Sonnets - he sure gets on a tangent doesn't he - what was it in the beginning 17 or maybe 19 Sonnets urging someone to have children - only 12 more to go - horrible to say only 12 more to go - I would prefer to be saying ah we only have 12 more... ah so - there have been several though that were every bit the wonderful - almost need to review them all just to pick out the few...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4780 on:** November 21, 2016, 04:59:51 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXIII

Lo! as a careful housewife runs to catch
One of her feather'd creatures broke away,
Sets down her babe and makes an swift dispatch
In pursuit of the thing she would have stay,
Whilst her neglected child holds her in chase,
Cries to catch her whose busy care is bent
To follow that which flies before her face,
Not prizing her poor infant's discontent;
So runn'st thou after that which flies from thee,
Whilst I thy babe chase thee afar behind;
But if thou catch thy hope, turn back to me,
And play the mother's part, kiss me, be kind:
So will I pray that thou mayst have thy 'Will,'
If thou turn back, and my loud crying still.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 143
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJqRa_9ZoKI

bellamarie · « **Reply #4781 on:** November 21, 2016, 03:46:04 PM »

Barb, I agree, there were a couple that really did jump out at me and I loved a couple lines in them, although, too few and far between I must admit.

Sonnet 143

So runn'st thou after that which flies from thee,
Whilst I thy babe chase thee afar behind;

I have to giggle because the first thought that came into my head reading this was:

Three blind mice, three blind mice.
See how they run. See how they run.
They all ran after the farmer's wife
Who cut off their tails with a carving knife
Did you ever see such a sight in your life
As three blind mice?

Three decrepit rodents chasing after each other....

Sorry, I don't intend to criticize our Shakespeare, but he sure has run amuck with these sonnets.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4782 on:** November 21, 2016, 04:50:10 PM »

Frybabe · « **Reply #4783 on:** November 21, 2016, 04:51:38 PM »

What an interesting sonnet. The first thing that came to my mind was a very busy mother trying to do several things at once. Mom's truly do need eyes in back of their heads and octopus arms at times when several things demand their attention at the same time.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4784 on:** November 21, 2016, 10:04:18 PM »

Frybabe, she was far from a busy mother...... according to Shakespeare, she was busy chasing after not only young Will, but many others who she could bed. More like a paramour, from Shakespeare's account. But then how much of any of this is true?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4785 on:** November 22, 2016, 01:21:24 AM »

Yes, I can see Frybabe's image if you only read the first 8 lines it sure sounds like a domestic scene where chickens rung wild - it is the next 6 lines that give the image that Bellamarie you are seeing - he is likening himself to this domestic metaphor as the babe who wants attention while chickens fly about grabbing the attention of the mistress - lots of images going on that frankly are a bit disturbing aren't they - And play the mother's part whoa, OK... However, those first lines are a lovely image that does not match any domestic image I can recall in any of his plays.

In fact I do not think he includes a 'lady of the evening' type character in any of his plays either - it is what Don John slanders the reputation of Hero with no basis, to her beloved and his brother Claudio in Much Ado... Oh yes, Othello, his wife Desdemona is whispered to him that she is supposed to be busy elsewhere.

Well this dark lady sure rumples up his emotions so that he is reaction in every Sonnet he writes about her.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4786 on:** November 22, 2016, 01:23:17 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXIV

Two loves I have of comfort and despair,
Which like two spirits do suggest me still;
The better angel is a man right fair,
The worser spirit a woman colour'd ill.
To win me soon to hell, my female evil
Tempteth my better angel from my side,
And would corrupt my saint to be a devil,
Wooing his purity with her foul pride.
And whether that my angel be turn'd fiend
Suspect I may, but not directly tell;
But being both from me, both to each friend,
I guess one angel in another's hell:
Yet this shall I ne'er know, but live in doubt,
Till my bad angel fire my good one out.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 144
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS8WY0HTS14

Frybabe · « **Reply #4787 on:** November 22, 2016, 08:09:25 AM »

Bellamarie, I don't really see what you are seeing in Sonnet CXXXXIII. Maybe I take what it says too literally?
It
Barb, I do love the artwork you find to match with the sonnets. The one with Sonnet CXXXXII reminds me of Andrew Wyeth. I've never seen it before, so probably not. My sister adores Wyeth's work.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4788 on:** November 22, 2016, 12:07:15 PM »

Frybabe, That's okay, we all see things differently and that is what makes it so fun and interesting.

I have a very negative and frustrated attitude lately where these sonnets are concerned. Shakespeare has gotten into a self deprecating, self indulging, twisted, obsessive behavior with these sonnets for far too long. He refers to love in a sense of possessiveness, and ownership. He is willing to smear, smudge and blackmail this mistress he professes to love, if she refuses to return his affections, all the while complaining about how she and his young male boy has betrayed him. They are a web of deceit, lies and infidelities and yet he calls it "love." Each sonnet has gotten more and more weird for me, it's almost like watching a movie where the triangle is about who can be more destructive to each other in the name of love. Brings to mind that strange Tom Cruise movie "Eyes Wide Shut."

Frybabe · « **Reply #4789 on:** November 22, 2016, 02:52:45 PM »

I never saw Eyes Wide Shut. The look of it didn't appeal and I am not all that fond of Tom Cruise.

...a sense of possessiveness, and ownership Hah, that is exactly why my best friend runs from relationships. As soon as his lady friends get emotionally close and start expecting an exclusive relationship, he bolts. It is a wonder he ever managed to get married - twice.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4790 on:** November 22, 2016, 04:13:59 PM »

Yep that was the decision when we started this project of reading all 154 Sonnets to commemorate the 400 year anniversary of his Death - that we would share how we reacted to the poems - not so much analyze them - enough pundits over the years and Shakespeare Scholars have done that, and some very well, so we planned not to repeat their thoughts and analysis or to break apart the Sonnet like tearing into the engine of a vehicle.

So we are in affect reacting - reacting to the sentiment of each Sonnet, the storyline they tell, some of the words chosen have grabbed us - and since we are reacting of course our own values and sensibilities are what we use as we read the poems - early on, we had a contributor that linked for us a great article on how we look at everything and read using our individual memory of life experiences - so much so that it directs our attention to things, ideas, places etc that match something or a line of somethings we have in our stored brain.

All to say we will as Bellamarie says, ... see things differently and that is what makes it so fun and interesting.

With that it is a treat to see your posts and your take on what you are reading - fun, and yet, to know this man in real life may not have been as much fun. The idea that he married twice in spite of feeling claustrophobic in a close relationship with women, oh my all kinds of questions and thoughts come up - I'm sure he worked out what he can do and from the many stories we read he is not alone with those feelings.

Haha now if our poet felt a bit more claustrophobic these Sonnets may have lived up to the skinny we hear that they are supposed to be love poems - yikes but then if your sensibilities are challenged when guys lust after both young boys and although married, lusts after 'ladies of the night' reading about all this feels unwashed.

This one got to me as a prime example of women's place - grrrr - reminds me of the Burka's and head scarves, cover her up she may tempt me...

The worser spirit a woman colour'd ill.
To win me soon to hell, my female evil
Tempteth my better angel from my side,

The anachronism, The Devil Made Me Do It - and she is the devil.... grrr

Frybabe the painting is probably either a Waterhouse or a Leighton - I'll see if I can find the original again.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4791 on:** November 22, 2016, 05:39:26 PM »

I LOVE Tom Cruise movies, but he made a few that were just strange, that is why Shakespeare's Sonnet 143 brought that particular movie to my mind. I am pretty sure I have watched every movie he has ever made. I adored Katie Holmes, she is from Toledo, Ohio where I live, my oldest granddaughter went to the same modeling school and high school as Katie. I was overjoyed to see two of my favorite actors marry and be so full of love, but much like Shakespeare's sonnets, it did not last and the separation and divorce turned very dark and sad.

Sonnet 144

The better angel is a man right fair,
The worser spirit a woman colour'd ill.

Okay now this sonnet reminds me of the song Devil or Angel by The Clovers 1956

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3NgHVcnjVg

Poor Shakespeare, he has himself in a bit of a quandary.

I guess one angel in another's hell:

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4792 on:** November 23, 2016, 02:52:06 AM »

Found it Frybabe - the artwork is Waterhouse - here is a link

http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/a/waterhouse/jwwaterhousedolcepainting.html

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4793 on:** November 23, 2016, 03:01:45 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXV

Those lips that Love's own hand did make
Breathed forth the sound that said 'I hate,'
To me that languish'd for her sake:
But when she saw my woeful state,
Straight in her heart did mercy come,
Chiding that tongue that ever sweet
Was used in giving gentle doom,
And taught it thus anew to greet:
'I hate' she alter'd with an end,
That follow'd it as gentle day
Doth follow night, who like a fiend
From heaven to hell is flown away;
'I hate' from hate away she threw,
And saved my life, saying -- 'not you.'

Shakespeare Sonnet 145
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM9RimYWDFQ

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4794 on:** November 24, 2016, 02:50:12 AM »

Not sure who she hates - she said it - even with her lips made by love's own hand - she said she hates - but then the last says - she saved his life - I imagine he means his feeling of doom since according to this she says to him "not you" so then whom does she hate or did he imagine she was referring to him when she said, "not you" - whatever - this Sonnet sounds rather wimpy compared to the passion, even if mis-placed of the other Sonnets - as if he ran out of steam - ah so my mind is not into the mystery of his obsession with this woman - it is Thanksgiving and I am NOT feeling thankful to someone who says they hate but excludes someone from their hate - sounds like an exclusive club to be a part of her hate - also, thanksgiving and hate remind me too much of the Pipeline army versus the water protectors most of whom are members of a native tribe - Onward...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4795 on:** November 24, 2016, 02:51:15 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXVI

Poor soul, the centre of my sinful earth,
[Why feed'st] these rebel powers that thee array?
Why dost thou pine within, and suffer dearth,
Painting thy outward walls so costly gay?
Why so large cost, having so short a lease,
Dost thou upon thy fading mansion spend?
Shall worms, inheritors of this excess,
Eat up thy charge? is this thy body's end?
Then soul, live thou upon thy servant's loss,
And let that pine to aggravate thy store;
Buy terms divine in selling hours of dross;
Within be fed, without be rich no more:
So shalt thou feed on Death, that feeds on men,
And, Death once dead, there's no more dying then.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 146
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vm4BpI3mlY

bellamarie · « **Reply #4796 on:** November 24, 2016, 08:21:05 AM »

These last two sonnets sounds like he is returning to prior ones referring to death and cheating it. Hum drum.....

On a happier note, hope you have a very Happy Thanksgiving Barb!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4797 on:** November 25, 2016, 01:09:08 AM »

Full day - after eating more than usual and re-reading this Sonnet I thought the one thought too perfect - worth a smile

Shall worms, inheritors of this excess,
Eat up thy charge? is this thy body's end?

And then I had to backtrack because it was fascinating to dwell on the thoughts in the preceding few lines added to the line thinking, not so much of what we put into our body or how we care for our body but interesting, we pine within for many reasons and keep it inside covering our suffering by dressing our body, our outer public self and acting as if all is well - some would call it putting on a false front and yet, we do not want to either affect others with our suffering which is a downer for all in our company nor do we want to call attention to our suffering because we do not want to attract the attention albeit compassion to our suffering.

Why dost thou pine within, and suffer dearth,
Painting thy outward walls so costly gay?

This thought as well - reminds me of Tevye, in Fiddler On the Roof shaking his fist at God - and yes, why so large a cost - for some, a really large cost to experience when we really have a short lease on life - that our soul is encased within our body as our mansion for a short time given the history of mankind much less the history of the universe.

Why so large cost, having so short a lease,
Dost thou upon thy fading mansion spend?

Yep, truth - And, Death once dead, there's no more dying then. I guess an ironic benefit to look forward to.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4798 on:** November 25, 2016, 01:13:03 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXVII

My love is as a fever, longing still
For that which longer nurseth the disease,
Feeding on that which doth preserve the ill,
The uncertain sickly appetite to please.
My reason, the physician to my love,
Angry that his prescriptions are not kept,
Hath left me, and I desperate now approve
Desire is death, which physic did except.
Past cure I am, now reason is past care,
And frantic-mad with evermore unrest;
My thoughts and my discourse as madmen's are,
At random from the truth vainly express'd;
For I have sworn thee fair and thought thee bright,
Who art as black as hell, as dark as night.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 147
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM2OYHunShM

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4799 on:** November 25, 2016, 05:10:25 PM »

Well he is not getting the love and attention he seeks is he... and so to him she is as black as hell and as dark as night -

Taking the poem away for the idea of this women we have been reading about and place the suasion towards anyone whose attention we've longed, that we desperately try to get their approval with an appetite to please; from a boss or client or even a family member whom you see only infrequently and there is no reaction much less action from them, if we're smart enough and not really want the attention then, we can see our actions to gain approval as a disease and that is where it becomes confusing.

How often we try to please someone with no acknowledgement or response. We may feel good about what we have done but without any response and later, we see no particular attention to our friendly and loving gesture we seldom think we have a problem - It is only when there is out and out disdain to our overture by this person whom we though incapable of such ugly or unbecoming behavior that we have dark thoughts about them and still we seldom see our own actions as vanity - wanting friendship or approval. Relationships are tricky and it is not always an inappropriate relationship that allows our emotions to be toyed with. Even being taken for granted stings.

News:

Author Topic: Poetry Page (Read 725185 times)