Author Topic: Poetry Page (Read 725153 times)

bellamarie · « **Reply #4800 on:** November 25, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »

Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets

2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.

April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.

A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.

Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Discussion Leaders: Barb

Oh Barb, I love your insight here. I so badly longed to have the friendship and approval of my sister in law years ago. When I first met her she was so close to her brother (my hubby) that had I not known I would have thought she was his girlfriend the way she hung all over him and hugged on him. It made me just a little uncomfortable since I came from a family of non-huggers and no open display of affection what so ever. She friended me early on, but as I became the mother of his children she got more and more distant, by the time our third child was born she made up a untruthfulness to cause a rift in our relationship. I desperately wanted her approval and love, and I know my hubby wanted his sister/brother relationship back. I went to confession and mentioned this to our priest. He gave me the best advice ever, he said, "Not everyone is going to like you, do as Jesus did, knock on the door, if it opens enter, if they do not answer, walk to the next door."

Shakespeare could use this advice...... let it go, walk to the next door. We don't need to demean, slander, hate, or gossip about others who choose not to accept us. In reading these sonnets I have seen Shakespeare use the most beautiful descriptives, and the most ugly descriptives where the young boy Will, and this mistress are concerned. No one should have to work so hard at having love, as Shakespeare has in these sonnets.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4801 on:** November 26, 2016, 12:40:10 AM »

It is even more confusing isn't it when the one whose affection or attention we desire is a family member - regardless how we see their behavior differently from our own, we just really want a smooth relationship - I do like the advise given to you by the priest in confession - I need to remember that because I too have family who gossips untruths about me - I struggle and struggle - I feel that if I attempt to say anything it becomes a she said / I said and then also I lower myself to their ways - one thing I have learned is the one acting in the unfriendly way to put it mildly is actually feeling inadequate - but then it is not up to us to shore up their self-esteem especially at our expense.

If nothing else these Sonnets have a few times allowed us to share some important facets of life that I have received new insight - not exactly what I expected from Shakespeare's Sonnets but like walking any new path you never know what you will see or hear till you start walking.

And yes, I missed the last post again and so you are in the heading - at least I've learned that as long as I do not put lines across the post to separate the heading from your comments, all is well.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4802 on:** November 26, 2016, 12:45:45 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXVIII

O me, what eyes hath Love put in my head,
Which have no correspondence with true sight!
Or, if they have, where is my judgment fled,
That censures falsely what they see aright?
If that be fair whereon my false eyes dote,
What means the world to say it is not so?
If it be not, then love doth well denote
Love's eye is not so true as all men's 'No.'
How can it? O, how can Love's eye be true,
That is so vex'd with watching and with tears?
No marvel then, though I mistake my view;
The sun itself sees not till heaven clears.
O cunning Love! with tears thou keep'st me blind,
Lest eyes well-seeing thy foul faults should find.

Shakespeare Sonnet 148
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3WCy-a6uPk

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4803 on:** November 26, 2016, 06:35:46 PM »

Yes, it is true when we look at anyone with love we just do not see their faults or even their chicanery - any behavior problems we either overlook or brush aside as not serious - I think that is the most difficult to deal with when you are a mother, sister, daughter, wife of someone addicted to either drink or drugs - to have to face that reality is difficult when you see them through your loving eyes.

It is even a problem for women who are being mistreated - till it really gets bad it is dismissed as - oh he didn't mean it or he is under a lot of stress - and if we react to every time we feel we are being ignored by someone, it is really about us and our feeling or our fear of being thought less of, rather than accepting it is the other who has the problem.

It really is easy to see the world through our own eyes regardless, if love is blinding us or, if our desire to be accepted or, to just please the one we love is self-centered rather than, other-centered. And I do think there is a difference between noting what is going on that is not best for the other in order to bring opportunity for them to change versus, judging, blaming and pulling away or even bemoaning what we observe.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4804 on:** November 26, 2016, 11:06:36 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXIX

Canst thou, O cruel! say I love thee not,
When I against myself with thee partake?
Do I not think on thee, when I forgot
Am of myself, all tyrant, for thy sake?
Who hateth thee that I do call my friend?
On whom frown'st thou that I do fawn upon?
Nay, if thou lour'st on me, do I not spend
Revenge upon myself with present moan?
What merit do I in myself respect,
That is so proud thy service to despise,
When all my best doth worship thy defect,
Commanded by the motion of thine eyes?
But, love, hate on, for now I know thy mind;
Those that can see thou lovest, and I am blind.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 149
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox4Hv2zlEdg

bellamarie · « **Reply #4805 on:** November 26, 2016, 11:47:50 PM »

Sonnet 148

O cunning Love! with tears thou keep'st me blind,
Lest eyes well-seeing thy foul faults should find.

Sonnet 149

But, love, hate on, for now I know thy mind;
Those that can see thou lovest, and I am blind.

Well this is a huge contradiction to him finding all her faults in the earlier sonnets, and now he says, love has blinded him to them.

PatH · « **Reply #4806 on:** November 27, 2016, 03:46:14 PM »

Yes, he goes through a lot of mood changes: loving in spite of faults, jealousy at the betrayal of her and the young man, a self-loathing for his own behavoir, which turrns more and more to criticism of her, ending up savagely in 147: black as hell, as dark as night.

Now he's turned softer again.

PatH · « **Reply #4807 on:** November 27, 2016, 03:48:26 PM »

Barb, if it's easy to answer, what is the picture for 148?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4808 on:** November 27, 2016, 08:26:20 PM »

Pat, it is Austrian Symbolist painter Gustav Klimt 'Crying Woman'

I guess we question if he is really professing love or an obsession but that is neither here nor there - for sure this one he is seeing her actions as a lack of love and in fact hate - and his woebegone self-concern or maybe it is his love that blinds him to the sting that he knows is there but would like to ignore. Not completely because he does write about it.

I guess anyone who has been hurt unnecessarily by another they care about goes past the sting - this is where forgiveness is a muddle - some say to forgive is not to forget and so there would have to be a change of feeling - a feeling of being wary rather than full trust - or for some they successfully set boundaries to protect themselves realizing no one is going to protect them, even this person they love - this business of independence versus dependence in relation to the circle of humanity gets confusing and muddled.

Is the truth that we think everyone we care about shares the same values as we and if not than a boundary - hmm sure explains national boundaries then - I guess peace on earth also must include boundaries or we are not honoring differences - lot to think about that this simple Sonnet that may be about his love or obsession can easily be transferred to anyone or group we care about.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4809 on:** November 27, 2016, 08:38:26 PM »

Barb that's an interesting point of view on boundaries. I just don't know if Shakespeare even knows what real love is. He has throughout these sonnets gone from obsessive love for young Will, to almost destructive love for the Mistress, back to obsessiveness yet cruelness toward young Will, then to as Pat points out a very savagely toward her in 147. The man is a mess! But I suppose if we the readers hundreds of years later, can take away something from any of these sonnets, then hurray or us!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4810 on:** November 28, 2016, 12:36:13 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXX

O, from what power hast thou this powerful might
With insufficiency my heart to sway?
To make me give the lie to my true sight,
And swear that brightness doth not grace the day?
Whence hast thou this becoming of things ill,
That in the very refuse of thy deeds
There is such strength and warrantise of skill
That, in my mind, thy worst all best exceeds?
Who taught thee how to make me love thee more
The more I hear and see just cause of hate?
O, though I love what others do abhor,
With others thou shouldst not abhor my state;
If thy unworthiness rais'd love in me,
More worthy I to be beloved of thee.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 150
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRRgGGeOLzo

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4811 on:** November 28, 2016, 08:23:10 PM »

Sounds like others do not think her worthy or pretty or whatever but they do abhor her - and he sees that she abhors him because he is besotted with her - and he loves her because she is abhorred by others and therefore he pleads she should love him the more...

Which sounds nuts since for her to love him the more she has to accept her inferior position or inferior looks that are the cause of others abhorring her - what a circle -

bellamarie · « **Reply #4812 on:** November 28, 2016, 09:27:41 PM »

Sonnet 150

If thy unworthiness rais'd love in me,
More worthy I to be beloved of thee.

I hear misery loves company. Two unworthy people deserve each other.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4813 on:** November 29, 2016, 03:59:04 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXXI

Love is too young to know what conscience is;
Yet who knows not, conscience is born of love?
Then, gentle cheater, urge not my amiss,
Lest guilty of my faults thy sweet self prove.
For thou betraying me, I do betray
My nobler part to my gross body's treason;
My soul doth tell my body that he may
Triumph in love; flesh stays no farther reason,
But rising at thy name, doth point out thee
As his triumphant prize. Proud of this pride,
He is contented thy poor drudge to be,
To stand in thy affairs, fall by thy side.
No want of conscience hold it that I call
Her 'love,' for whose dear love I rise and fall.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 151
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V02lJM7NNeY

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4814 on:** November 29, 2016, 04:11:41 AM »

Decided to celebrate with a heading photo of art, the last line rather than the admission of either of their cheating - So, as a glorious procession - "Her 'love,' for whose dear love I rise and fall."

Regardless who said what or who did or did not do what - bottom line he does love her and that is what is important.

Reminds me of last Sunday night seeing the last in the first series of Poldark - they each cheat but bottom line they are as he says, regular, normal people that are not perfect and his wanting all those years his perfect love was impossible - all he did was bring his years of fantasy down to the level of average.

And so, for what ever happened between these two that Shakespeare writes about, bottom line they are regular, normal, average people who make mistakes and sin. If sin was not a part of life there would be no sacrament of confession. And so with their faults he loves her...

bellamarie · « **Reply #4815 on:** November 29, 2016, 03:23:00 PM »

I see him saying his body won out, in betraying her, and she can not judge him for she can in fact find herself doing the same. His conscious calls her "love" yet his body/flesh is the betrayer/treason. He says, just because his conscious calls her "love" don't be fooled, because his body rises and falls for her love. His lust wins out still!

I don't think Shakespeare is at all "in love" he is simply saying they both are responsible for allowing themselves to betray and cheat on each other, because they allowed their flesh (lust) to win out over love. I'm not seeing a mea culpa, nor a reunion. I see him and her, incapable of loving. Not that we can believe she ever did love him in the first place. I am still seeing him writing these as a grand fantasy in his mind.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4816 on:** November 29, 2016, 05:00:04 PM »

And it appears the Grand Fantasy continues doesn't it Bellamarie - ah so - I was tired of seeing the cheating and and and so decided to only take to heart the words of the Sonnet that allowed me to feel good

- had someone email me today and I am thinking it is what makes it so hard to be upbeat -

My note from a friend here in Austin - Is it just me or did this election suck the sense of humor away from our country? I feel like I'm walking on eggshells over here. Everything hurts everyone's feelings. Life ain't that serious folks. Have a little fun along the way.....smile, LAUGH....come on people!

When I was a kid we had a laughing record - I would give my eyeteeth for a copy of that laughing record to play on my CD now...

Well we only have 3 more of his Sonnets to go - Bellamarie I am thinking - I do not know about you but I am ready to get into another mood - Let's just finish this up - I will post another today and if you do not get back it will be here and then tomorrow is the last day of November and I'm thinking let's do the last two Sonnets tomorrow so that we can start December off with a glow -

These sonnets were more of a drain than uplifting - although for two reasons I am glad we did them - one to have the knowledge for ourselves and then there were some that really had me thinking and relating what was said to my own values and thoughts. I enjoyed hearing them and the one thing I noted looking for a clear read - there are many that are either over dramatic reading these Sonnets and some who are so dull I wish they were not on Youtube - as to the Sonnets the more famous are probably the loveliest and the only ones worth repeating without the story of several preceding or continuing his issues or storyline.

So next post is the next Sonnet and then two tomorrow and thanks for staying with this - it was a slog but we did it...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4817 on:** November 29, 2016, 05:09:24 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXXII

In loving thee thou know'st I am forsworn,
But thou art twice forsworn; to me love swearing,
In act thy bed-vow broke and new faith torn,
In vowing new hate after new love bearing.
But why of two oaths' breach do I accuse thee,
When I break twenty? I am perjured most;
For all my vows are oaths but to misuse thee
And all my honest faith in thee is lost,
For I have sworn deep oaths of thy deep kindness,
Oaths of thy love, thy truth, thy constancy,
And, to enlighten thee, gave eyes to blindness,
Or made them swear against the thing they see;
For I have sworn thee fair; more perjur'd I,
To swear against the truth so foul a lie!

Shakespeare Sonnet 152
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xd0d8nB92U

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4818 on:** November 29, 2016, 05:11:39 PM »

Same ol' same ol' isn't it - I need to walk away for a bit and see if I can see something else in this Sonnet - as if it were not part of this string of Sonnets about their infidelity and unworthiness but yet this declaration of love that as you say Bellamarie is really about Lust... be back

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4819 on:** November 30, 2016, 02:13:41 AM »

In loving thee thou know'st I am forsworn,

Ok but then he has to ruin it with all this about her - oh it is easy to blame him for this or that being the cause of his accusing her of unfaithfulness but frankly, let's face it - if you have ever been betrayed you do blame yourself for trusting - you feel angry and vindictive and when it comes down to it it still hurts even though you have done some betraying yourself -

I am thinking of Ross Poldark and how hurt he felt when he learned that Demelza had courted in her room his old army buddy Captain Henshawe - tit for tat but he did not feel it was justified - not just because she was a she but he was hurt - he did not see it as payback - that would belittle his hurt as if he had no right to feel.

That is the message I am getting from this Sonnet - not the string of Sonnets or the story behind these Sonnets but from this Sonnet as a stand alone I am seeing he is hurt and is justifying the hurt by remembering his own miss-deeds - and he is caught in his own logic because he still feels love for her -

I think he feels more than simply lust - lust wears thin after a time - yes, with his love there is lust but I do think there is hurt here - Lust does not feel wounded - lust can be denied, ignored, minimized, degraded, shamed, belittled but not hurt or wounded - do not see it - I can see a hurt or wounded pride that may be behind lust - but pride in not love unless it is pride in the one loved - where as wounded or hurt pride is self-pride - you can lust for someone without necessarily loving them but then there is no hurt or wound - and so I think he loved her.

OK I am going to upload one more Sonnet tonight and the last Sonnet tomorrow late afternoon...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4820 on:** November 30, 2016, 02:20:59 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXXIII

Cupid laid by his brand, and fell asleep:
A maid of Dian's this advantage found,
And his love-kindling fire did quickly steep
In a cold valley-fountain of that ground;
Which borrow'd from this holy fire of love
A dateless lively heat, still to endure,
And grew a seething bath, which yet men prove
Against strange maladies a sovereign cure.
But at my mistress' eye Love's brand new-fired,
The boy for trial needs would touch my breast;
I, sick withal, the help of bath desired,
And thither hied, a sad distemper'd guest,
But found no cure: the bath for my help lies
Where Cupid got new fire; my mistress' eyes.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 153
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERehCH06NsU

bellamarie · « **Reply #4821 on:** November 30, 2016, 12:18:17 PM »

Barb, before I post on the last sonnets I want to respond to the feelings of your email you received. I do feel the election has taken the wind out of all of us no matter who we were voting for. It went on way too long to begin with.... months and months of news media stuffing it down our throats. I would be excited to open my Facebook account to see what was new with my friends and family and instead what do I see.... more political jabs and horrible behaviors from the people I would least expect to see it from. I went to lunch with my group of high school alumni friends and it was so difficult hearing them express how disappointed they are in their family and friends hurtful comments, because they do not vote along the same party line with them. Never in my lifetime have I felt the need to suppress my words and feelings to prevent a family blow up or ending a friendship. I truly thought we were better than this. I quit watching tv the past few weeks, and only watched some of my shows I dvr so I would not get over stressed with all the ugly, smearing of both candidates. Let's face it, as a nation to bring it down to having to decide on two characters with the baggage they brought to the ticket was appalling to say the least. I focused on the issue that was the most important to me personally, and then blocked all the rest out. Phew... I am so glad it is over, I am glad for the outcome, and I am going to keep my prayers strong that this nation can find it in their hearts to try to mend the damage done over this election cycle. The hate displayed is overwhelming.

And, if that was not enough to deal with I am a Michigan football fan and the biggest game of the year is against our rival Ohio State. So, just off of Thanksgiving we had the big game on Saturday. The officiating was atrocious to put it mildly. Michigan lost in the second over time with the officials interfering greatly with the one sided calls throughout the game and into overtime. I'm pretty sure there is no game in history that had only two penalties called against them, for a loss of only six yards, in an entire game with two overtimes to boot. So, of course.... more hateful remarks all over the media and Facebook. Is it because we have such easy access to a large format now, that the hate seems to be more so than ever?

Phew........ Shakespeare's sonnets was actually a nice change even in his darkest moments.

I hope the spirit of the Christmas season can change the narrative in the news and on social media. Tis the season to be jolly!!

bellamarie · « **Reply #4822 on:** November 30, 2016, 12:42:50 PM »

Sonnet 152

And, to enlighten thee, gave eyes to blindness,
Or made them swear against the thing they see;

I see Shakespeare struggling with all he has said and felt about her. He feels he has allowed himself to be tricked into seeing her the way he wanted her to be, only to find he sees the truth, she is not any of the things he hoped for.

This is the first sonnet that actually mentions "bed-vow" meaning she is married. Is he saying the two of them are married, and she has broken her marriage vow to him, or is he saying she is married to someone else and has broken her marriage vow to her husband, by sleeping with him (Shakespeare)? I am assuming because he used the word, "mistress" to describe her throughout the sonnets, it is her committing adultery with Shakespeare, and many others according to him.

In this sonnet he seems remorseful for not seeing her for who she really was all along. He allowed his lust for her to blind him. I see him as being angry at himself. She has made a fool of him, and sadly enough, he has made a fool of himself.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4823 on:** November 30, 2016, 12:57:41 PM »

Sonnet 153

Cupid laid by his brand, and fell asleep:
A maid of Dian's this advantage found,
And his love-kindling fire did quickly steep
In a cold valley-fountain of that ground;
Which borrow'd from this holy fire of love
A dateless lively heat, still to endure,
And grew a seething bath, which yet men prove
Against strange maladies a sovereign cure.
But at my mistress' eye Love's brand new-fired,
The boy for trial needs would touch my breast;
I, sick withal, the help of bath desired,
And thither hied, a sad distemper'd guest,
But found no cure: the bath for my help lies
Where Cupid got new fire; my mistress' eyes.

WOW! Where do I begin? Cupid has always been thought of as the angel of true love, but he is in fact, "In classical mythology, Cupid (Latin Cupido, meaning "desire") is the god of desire, erotic love, attraction and affection."[/b] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid

All these are lustful, not loving emotions.

We have read throughout mythological writings how this little devil shoots arrows at people, and they end up miserable. In knowing this, it appears poor Shakespeare is saying, Cupid shot him with his arrow, which only brought him misery and pain, by being lustful and seduced by this mistress.

And thither hied, a sad distemper'd guest,
But found no cure: the bath for my help lies

It seems Shakespeare has caught some sort of venereal disease from having sex with this mistress, and it is incurable. Does not surprise me after knowing she has slept around with many others. Like the saying goes,

"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas"

(has been attributed to Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richard's Almanack. The Latin has been unreliably attributed to Seneca, but not linked to any specific work. The quote has a large almost universally agreed meaning of "You should be cautious of the company you keep.) https://www.google.com/search?q=meaning+of+bed+vow&rlz=1C1RNRA_enUS507US507&oq=meaning+of+bed+vow&aqs=chrome..69i57.3969j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=saying+about+lying+with+dogs

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4824 on:** November 30, 2016, 03:20:03 PM »

oh I forgot that saying, "He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas" - yes, it fits almost too well doesn't it.

I'm wondering when cupid became this cute symbol of love - it is almost like growing up and learning the myth that is Santa Clause. However, I think most folks today, at least here in the states think of cupid and this cute symbol of love.

the last two lines suggest to me she finds another - oh yes, I do think the word mistress is just how women are referred to - many of the stories even into the nineteenth century refer to women as mistress - the mistress of the house, kind of thing.

But found no cure: the bath for my help lies
Where Cupid got new fire; my mistress' eyes.

I am reading it that Cupid has new fire meaning another that my mistress' has an eye on - saying my mistress' suggests ownership - it could be a feeling of ownership with an exclusive sex partner because certainly someone that is a prostitute would not be exclusive to any one of their clients.

Almost could build a scenario that it was about his wife who was if I remember 5 years older then he so, this desire to marry at a young age for him, I believe he was only eighteen, could be what he is writing about. Then it seems reasonable to question all those years he is in London and she is in Stratford on Avon - granted they had 3 children, the older girl then twins, a boy and a girl and the boy dies when he is around 10 or 11 but, he does not return home till the girls are married - who knows maybe there was more reason for that than just his career required he be in London.

Probably though you earlier take is the most reasonable - he was writing from his own fantasy or creativity where stories are made up and then would explore various ways of saying whatever the thought.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4825 on:** November 30, 2016, 03:36:13 PM »

Barb, I found this which concurs that he was not referring to his "mistress" as his wife. Back in Shakespeare's days it had a vulgar connotation, as in being a kept woman.

http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/19281/why-was-use-of-mistress-was-considered-vulgar-during-1800s

I don't see these sonnets being biographical as I stated before. If he was indeed a lonely man being separated from his family for so many years I can see him sitting and fantasizing about what she was doing while he was away. I tend to think of the young Will he mentions in these sonnets, as Shakespeare seeing himself being that particular character in his fantasy. He was known to have affectionate feelings for a certain young man, so I can see him adding that into his sonnets, the what ifs..... the life he imagined, played out in his sonnets, much like in his plays.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4826 on:** November 30, 2016, 03:40:57 PM »

Ah so - not his wife - yes, I can see that regardless of his personal life, like his plays he wrote from his imagination or fantasy life.

Another subject - got thinking - your quote fits more than Shakespeare - I think if fits this nation we are both bemoaning over how folks are in reaction - both candidates were awful and so it was pick one awful over the other awful. Which is amazing they are still fighting without realizing it, which awful was the better awful - anyhow...

"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas"

Trump may or may not be awful as a leader - we do not know but he chose to lower himself to the worst aspects of the population - I do not think all folks voted for him because of the things he said about others but because he seemed to be the best hope for a different future and as a bully he could match the bully behavior shown by those in Congress. So he had fleas if only because of the aspect of some in this nation he chose to acknowledge. And of course she had fleas because of years of manipulating and staying with Bill, which I am sorry that is not love - that is either need or more manipulation so she would not end up on the wood pile or forgotten.

So this nation had two dogs, both with fleas and the media churned up like the cupid of mythology which dog we were going to choose - problem - now the entire nation has fleas and we are itching and scratching and growling at each other with no relief in sight. And to top it off the pedestal many of us had place Obama is chipped away as we are seeing many of his initiatives or lack of initiative to help those who need it and who he promised he would help, all this is making him less perfect - as a couple and family top honors but the pedestal is been badly chipped and leaning. All our heroes have been laid to waste in just a matter of months - Bernie Sanders did an about face that the best of thinking is he was threatened, Elizabeth Warren lays down with the flea infested dog, on and on it goes.

I think we need to pray for some flea powder - even war would only take the flea bitten nation into a mindset that would take away from the scratching but the fleas would still be a huge infestation. Well for sure we cannot look to the media for flea powder. The media laid down with the flea ridden dogs long before the public was required to in order for us to vote one dog over the other flea bitten dog.

hahah well I sure used up that metaphor... onward I will upload our last Sonnet...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4827 on:** November 30, 2016, 03:46:05 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXXXXIV

The little Love-god lying once asleep
Laid by his side his heart-inflaming brand,
Whilst many nymphs that vow'd chaste life to keep
Came tripping by; but in her maiden hand
The fairest votary took up that fire
Which many legions of true hearts had warm'd;
And so the general of hot desire
Was sleeping by a virgin hand disarm'd.
This brand she quenched in a cool well by,
Which from Love's fire took heat perpetual,
Growing a bath and healthful remedy
For men diseased; but I, my mistress' thrall,
Came there for cure, and this by that I prove,
Love's fire heats water, water cools not love.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 154
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5OLBs-vX7Y

Frybabe · « **Reply #4828 on:** November 30, 2016, 04:20:57 PM »

I like this one better than the last one, Barb. I can understand it. The other was mostly gibberish to me, other than remembering in my mythology something about a nymph swiping Cupid's bow and arrows.

Now I wonder about this quenching in a pool business. It reminds me of the mineral hot springs that people go to for "the cure". Did that feature in a cupid story somewhere?

PatH · « **Reply #4829 on:** November 30, 2016, 11:17:10 PM »

In both these poems Cupid's fire is stolen by one of Diana's maidens, and quenched in water, which becomes hot and healing, a fountain in one, a well in the other. The poet seeks relief in them, but doesn't find it. In the first, only the flame in his love's eyes can heal him, in the second, love's fire heats water, water cools not love. They are the same thing, but the second one is neater and clearer.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4830 on:** December 01, 2016, 12:24:24 AM »

Ok what we know about Cupid - some of which we read while reading Ovid last winter -

Cupid is winged, allegedly, because lovers are flighty and likely to change their minds, and boyish because love is irrational. His symbols are the arrow and torch, "because love wounds and inflames the heart." Cupid is also sometimes depicted blindfolded and described as blind, not so much in the sense of sightless—since the sight of the beloved can be a spur to love

Cupid carries two kinds of arrows, one with a sharp golden point, and the other with a blunt tip of lead. A person wounded by the golden arrow is filled with uncontrollable desire, but the one struck by the lead feels aversion and desires only to flee. - In Metamorphous we read how Apollo taunts Cupid as the lesser archer, Cupid shoots him with the golden arrow, but strikes the object of his desire, the nymph Daphne, with the lead. Trapped by Apollo's unwanted advances, Daphne prays to her father, the river god Peneus, who turns her into a laurel, the tree sacred to Apollo.

In Ovid’s Metamorphoses we also have the story how Cupid accidentally wounded Venus with one of his arrows when he leaned in for a kiss, he causes the goddess’s tragic infatuation with Adonis. We also have Venus eager to demonstrate love’s power over the underworld. At her command, Cupid fires an arrow at Pluto who becomes enamored of Ceres’ daughter, Proserpine.

Cupid is often shown riding a dolphin. One interpretation is the image represent the soul's journey, originally associated with Dionysian religion. Dolphins were often portrayed in antiquity as friendly to humans, and the dolphin itself could represent affection.

Cupid's triumph over mankind is signified by his driving a chariot pulled by lions

Cupid sleeping became a symbol of absent or languishing love in Renaissance poetry and art, including a Sleeping Cupid (1496) by Michelangelo that is now lost. The image of Cupid or Amore sleeping represents the indolence of Love in the lap of Idleness.

I cannot find anything in the Cupid Psyche myth where Cupid is sleeping by the water with his bow and arrow by his side however, there are several paintings of that scene.

In his play, Midsummer Night's Dream there are all sorts of children type angles and there is a time they are often shown by a pond as well as asleep in the forest or in a large bed. The play does not specify that any of them represent cupid but given the nature of the story it could be and therefore in this Sonnet Shakespeare could be carrying that thought describing cupid and water both heated by fire or cooling love.

Now here is a story I did not know and I find fascinating - According to Cicero and Pausanias, Cupid had a brother, born after him to the same parents: Venus and Mars. Anteros is sometimes viewed as Cupid’s enemy, representing spiritual rather than carnal love, and featured struggling for victory in a contest over a palm. Anteros is symbolic of Reciprocal or Virtuous love, and his tussling with Cupid is associated with the celebration of marriage, which required both Loves to prove fruitful and fulfilling.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4831 on:** December 01, 2016, 12:35:41 AM »

Haha I just thought I wonder if that last Sonnet is where we get the jest of taking a cold shower - or when I was a kid there were dogs that ran wild and if they were at it some adult always threw a basin of water on them, usually a women with a look of annoyance on her face, including my grandmother. The men usually just yelled at them and waved their arm yelling to get out of here. I'm chuckling with the memories.

Well I can say bath water is the perfect ending - at times he did fire up the imagination and the Sonnet was as delightful as a warm bath and other times it was like drenched by a pail of cold water and sometimes they were as tepid as a bath that sat too long and left you feeling dissatisfied and glad to get into your Pj's.

Thought it appropriate to end this with a photo of his oldest daughter's home in Stratford upon Avon

Hall's Croft - home of Shakespeare’s daughter, Susanna

Frybabe · « **Reply #4832 on:** December 01, 2016, 07:37:41 AM »

Thanks for the comparison of the two last poems, PatH. I've been quite lazy about even trying to figure out what Shakespeare was saying let alone figuring out to what he was alluding. It needs more mental energy than I cared to make.

When I first read Shakespeare's plays in high school (Hamlet and Julius Caesar), it was tough going trying to figure it out. What helped immensely was the class discussion and actually seeing the plays which had the advantage of visual clues to the verbiage. It is much easier to read his plays now, but the sonnets seem even more convoluted and difficult to understand what he was getting at than his plays did back then.

Barb, what a great association you've made between the hot/warm water baths and cold showers. My first chuckle of the day.

PatH · « **Reply #4833 on:** December 01, 2016, 10:42:41 AM »

Yes, some of the sonnets are really tough going. The grammar is so convoluted, and some of the words have changed meaning, and the constrictions of the sonnet form twist things even more. sometimes you have to read one several times to match up subject and verb.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4834 on:** December 01, 2016, 01:12:42 PM »

Oh Barb you did give me a bit of a chuckle with the comparison of the dogs in heat, needing to be hosed down with cold water to break them up. Seems our Shakespeare, the mistress and young Will could have used a good hosing down throughout these sonnets.

I remember in Ovid how Cupid was a bit of a devil and shot men with his arrows causing them to go after fair maidens and actually raping them. I sure do look at Cupid in a whole new light since reading Ovid.

PatH., I'm with you, these sonnets had double and triple meanings. Just like in these last two sonnets they are full of double entendres of sexual intercourse followed by venereal disease. He goes to the water to be cured, yet in his last sentence he says:

Came there for cure, and this by that I prove,
Love's fire heats water, water cools not love.

He chooses to end this sonnet as a chiasmus.... but without an end of time or love: "Love's fire heats water, water cools not.
love.

Seems to me it is a perfect ending, considering he was constantly going a bit in circles in these sonnets. There seems to be no cure for his disease, or for love. Or is he seeing them as one in the same?

Gotta run, Christmas shopping is on my to do list today. Ciao for now!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4835 on:** December 01, 2016, 01:53:03 PM »

Perfect - I feel we did the 400th anniversary of the death of Shakespeare proud - England had all sorts of activities and celebrations but for us to do this in the midst of all that has been happening since July between elections and storms and North Dakota and our own reading and catching up on various TV shows I think we did super.

Thanks folks for sharing - there were a few who posted along the way that are not with us at the end but their contributions were invaluable - we end with the fun of a new word to the discussion - chiasmus - thanks Bellamarie, and to Pat of so often sorted us out, and Frybabe for sharing your thoughts.

The Poetry pages will continue - without a daily change - We'll be in holiday mode when we change the page - just share a poem as you find one that speaks to you - looking forward to holiday and early winter poems by any author.

I'm thinking we may start off next year by featuring poets from the same time frame as the book we are discussing that month - so that in January while reading Cranford here in Poetry we will share poems written during the same time period, Victorian poetry.

Almost hate to see us put Ol' Will to bed - till the new poetry page...

PatH · « **Reply #4836 on:** December 01, 2016, 09:49:08 PM »

Barb, this is a tremendous accomplishment you did here, to put up a sonnet every single day, and comment on it. Your choice of pictures was inspired, and added a lot, and I know it's not quick to find such.

I'm grateful to you for getting me to read all the sonnets. They range from wonderful to awful, and they take a lot of work to understand. I never would have gotten through them without the discussion. I didn't comment as much as I would have liked, because I was often behind, but I read them all, and all the comments, and got many fresh insights in doing so.

Thank you; I'm very grateful.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4837 on:** December 01, 2016, 10:10:20 PM »

Thanks Pat and Bellamarie - glad you found something to stir your thinking and tickle a different way of seeing things - where it was not exactly always fun it was exhilarating to get to the nub of his 'fantasies' as Bellamarie would label the plot of these Sonnets -

Been having fun finding what he had to say about Christmas - not familiar with 12th Night but it appears to have been performed during Christmas time - found this...

Going up the social scale, it is said that Queen Elizabeth herself made a Christmas pudding for the lawyers of the Middle Temple. The story goes that she gave them the twenty-nine foot-long Bench Table which still stands in Middle Temple Hall.

Middle Temple Hall was renowned for its Christmas-time celebrations, with Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night being performed there in 1602. The table was made from an oak tree from Windsor Great Park whose planks had had been sailed down river especially for them, and the first pudding was mixed on this very table. A small amount of this pudding was saved to be mixed in the following year, and this tradition continued until 1966 when it died out until revived by the Queen Mother in 1971.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4838 on:** December 01, 2016, 10:11:16 PM »

Barb thank you so very much for all the work you put into celebrating the 400th Anniversary of Shakespeare's death. The pictures you chose for each of the sonnets were simply amazing. I know you had to have put in a lot more time than ever expected, and it was greatly appreciated. YEA!!! We did get through all 154 in spite of all that was happening in our lives, the country and yes, even our losing our dear Ella. I think the election cycle really took the wind out of our sails these past few weeks, and yet we managed to stay on track with the sonnets.

So now as you said, we shall put Ol' Will and young Will to bed. As he ended this last sonnet leaving us with and endless feeling, I will see his sonnets as timeless. I would certainly not recommend these sonnets to anyone as "love letters," on the contrary more like betrayals and revenge. But I am glad I was able to share them with all of you. So my dear Shakespeare, here is where we shall part, and I will bid you adieu. May he rest in peace.

I like the idea of keeping the Poetry page open for poems of future book discussions.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4839 on:** December 01, 2016, 10:14:09 PM »

Thanks Bellamarie - a double thank you from you and yes, we sure did it - maybe the Sonnets were an touchstone for us - about the only thing we could depend upon and now you have to wonder with all that was going on as Elizabeth stripped her kingdom of Catholics if he too had his writing and maybe even his Sonnets as his touchstone - we were turned upside down and inside out the last few months but nothing like he must have had as a constant between his uncle being drawn and quartered and he hiding not only his own religious affiliation but also his family and friends who were also Catholic - Catholic, Black, Native Indigenous People, Muslim, Jew - golly we just keep it up don't we...

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