Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online

[rosemarykaye]

Thanks Andrea - I must say I really enjoy these boards and can't wait to log onto them and see what has been going on overnight.  The contributors are all so interesting - and so kind - I love the way we can have conversations without any aggression or posturing - so unlike most politicians (I have been subjected to Sky News all day for the past 2 weeks at the office and if I have to listen to one more minute of David Cameron et al sounding off I think I will scream).

I am not really a very confident person, and usually shut up if someone talks loudly enough over me (I am only too used to having to put up with the older generation of male lawyers, who tend to like the sound of their own voices) - that is another great thing about this group, we all respect each other's right to "speak".  I hope one day I will make it to one of your gatherings and meet some of these truly lovely people.

I still wouldn't say I like "Little Bee" - but I have enjoyed this discussion much more than I thought I would - so you were right!

Many thanks for your warm welcomes and continuing friendship.

Rosemary

[bellamarie]

Traude~ Thank you for sharing your families plight.  My grandparents immigrated to the U.S. from Italy, they spoke little to broken English as long as they lived here.  I wish I could have gotten to know them and talked to them to know how it was when they entered this country.  I feel sad and so ill informed after reading this book, and your life story.  I suppose I can only hope to be better educated, and hope for one day as Little Bee glimpsed, the unitedness of all races, colors, and creeds.  I am thankful that at least the United States welcomes all.  I suppose that is why we are referred to as the melting pot of the world.

Rosemary~ I so agree with what you said about the money and power.  I fear government no longer sees the people they are elected to serve, they seem to work for the companies that can help their self interests and profit the most.  We have gotten so spoiled and comfortable with our way of life that its easy to turn a blind eye, rather than to stand up and demand more from our government.  Not to get too political, I do think the tea party movement is doing just that, demanding accountability, asking for transparency and holding the elected officials to the job they are elected to do, which is  serve the people, not wall street, oil companies, banks etc.  Money and power does and I fear will always be the downfall of men, yet the strength of nations, if that makes sense.

Andy and Traude I want to thank the two of you for taking on this book discussion.  As I said in the beginning when some were dropping off like flies, this book is not for sissies.  Now that in no way refers to anyone personally who was not up to staying with this book as a sissy, its just a figure of speech.  Traude, I know I can be very passionate at times with my posts and please never feel I would in any way try to sway another's opinions with my posts.  My Italian personality comes through and if you could only see me in person, instead of my hands on the keyboard, they would be flying all over in the air and me ending with Mama Mia watsamadderyou?   lolol  I respect each person's right to have their own opinions and feelings and I do feel because of our many walks of life we bring to the discussion bits and pieces of that in our posts.  Andy its so true when you say how different, yet alike we all are.  I love that at SeniorLearn we all respect that and can have healthy and enlightening discussions.  If you and Little Bee won't mind sharing, I shall end with....UDO!

Ciao for now~

[ALF43]

Thank you Rosemary and Bell, you have warmed my heart.

[straudetwo]

Andy, I agree with Rosemary. The oil companies had a different motivation - money, profit.
It can be assumed that  wherever they wee based,  they made thedecisions about exploring and drilling when and where, etc.  And that they had hired hands,  contractors, perhaps mercenaries.  Whoever the "executioners" were,  they knew what they did was wrong and tried to cover it up.
Which did not work.

The UK is not the only country in Europe facing ever new waves of immigrants.  And every country deals with them in accordance with its laws and policies.

The man who handed LB over to the authorities in Ajuba was was less doctrinaire and much less condescending than the female officer in the airport had been. He did this job because it paid well and he couldn't find anything else. He also told LB that he was working for a Dutch company, running "the show, the detention centers, the repatriations
 
Bellamarie,    in an earlier post you asked how could Sarah be allowed to make contact with LB again.  There was no law against it, was there ?

After seeing LB in prison for the allowed time, Sarah went home with Charlie and Lawrence. We are not told that she was given the order to stay away from LB.

When Lawrence found out on which flight LB would be, Sarah went to the airport with Charlie and bought tickets for that flight.  And they sold them to her.  Nobody stopped her. Nobody bodily prevented her from sitting down next to LB.

Andy, how LB got to the port is described in Chapter Five, pages 134-135.
---------
The scene at the customs is still fresh in my mind.  The tone of the officer's voice was mocking. He clearly did not believe me. It shocked me that someone could believe I was lying at such a solemn moment. I believe he was  embarrassed. That's why he left.

We have several days left for discussion and I will make full use of them.
We are digging out from more inches of snow on top of what is still there.

[straudetwo]

P.S. Thank you so very much for today's posts. I just saw them while going over my own.

[serenesheila]

ANDY, and BELLA, thank you both, for the directions on quoting.  I didn't sleep last night, so in reading them, I am having trouble understanding.  So, I will wait until tomorrow, and see if I have a better understanding.

Sheila

[Babi]

 Unfortunately, ROSEMARY, it would appear that greed is not an
exclusive trademark of Western society. Don'w we hear all too
frequently of a midEastern or emerging African country where all
the money winds up in the hands of those in power, while the
rest of the country remains in deep poverty?  And when the people
rise up in revolt, the heads of government run for refuge, taking
millions with them.

   ALF & TRAUDE, thank you so much for opening and leading a great
discussion.  This is a book I would probably not have read otherwise,
and the contributions everyone has made have been so worthwhile.
Your insights, in particular, added a great deal.  Again, thank you both.

[ALF43]

Sheila- I felt like I had three thumbs when I first was learning to do  the "quote" thing.  It really is easy - perhaps it was my directions.
 Do the first part  and see how that feels.  If you have any questions please feel free to email me.  
Also Jane is the best teacher that we have.  She is patient, understanding and relentless in helping us to understand this stuff- all done in a gracious and affable way.
Here are USEFUL tips that Jane has provided and a place to go on our boards if you need help.
USEFUL TIPS

[ALF43]

Babi- You are very welcome and I was delighted that you agreed to join us.  You always bring a sense of balance to a discussion, many times observing things in a more equitable way.  I like balance, I'm just not good at it.  

Unfortunately, ROSEMARY, it would appear that greed is not an
exclusive trademark of Western society.

AMEN!  Look at the case of Doc Duvalier.  He ran like a chicken for refuge when it got too hot after mishandling millions of dollars, forcing his country further into poverty.  Now he returns at the worst of times to his native country. 
 I would not be surprised if he isn't assassinated.  Lord, they probably have their weapons buried beneath that mess of a rubble that still exists after a year, so maybe he's safe.

[ALF43]

Babi picked up on most of the quotes that I had highlighted.  My fvorite in this book was "Everyone is complicit in grief."

[straudetwo]

Thank you, Andy, Babi, Sheila, and all who posted for more than a month since this book was first suggested.

What makes a discussion are the responses, and the responsiveness, the echo.

[bookad]

When a vast oil spill from BP’s Macondo well in the Gulf of Mexico transfixed millions of people last year, many environmentalists argued that the disaster paled in comparison to the damage Nigeria had suffered through decades of intensive oil exploitation. The country’s problems are compounded by endemic corruption and ethnic violence.

Geert Ritsema of the Friends of the Earth said at the round table that Shell tolerated levels of environmental damage in Nigeria that it would never accept at home. “When will you stop applying double standards?” he said.

quote above from 'The New York Times'

life was so much easier before the internet...I say that with tongue in cheek...how much like ostriches with heads in the sand not realizing our influence on the rest of the world...I have to thank this book for giving me more awareness of my effect on our environment and world and how our western civilization is very hurtful...how did we come to this without any realization of consequence & responsibility!!!

who said fiction wasn't educating people

I am very glad I had the opportunity to be with this group reading this book

thank you
Deb

[bellamarie]

Thank you Deb for the article.  And now just today Egypt is having a revolution in the streets with thousands of protestors and what does our media have to say, " They wonder how this will effect the world's oil."  Just amazes me.  I thank heaven for the internet, although Egypt has cut off all access to the internet at this time.  What is it they don't want others to see or know?  Little Bee was doomed due to what she saw and knew. 

Some things will  never change as long as we continue to stay dependent on oil.  Whether it's ideology, power or money, it will always be the driving force behind inhumane treatment in order to gain it.

Ciao for now~

 

[pedln]

who said fiction wasn't educating people

   

Deb, how true.  Had it not been for this book I would continue to think of Nigerians only in the role of Internet and email scammers.  Now I can find it on a map of Africa and know that it is the most populous country of Africa, and that the North is  mainly Muslin and the South predominantly Christian. And that it is Africa’s largest oil producer.  More importantly, I want to know more about not only Nigeria, but also immigration issues.

My apologies for being such a poor contributor.  I had to return the book to the library and thus was not always sure what had occurred when. But I did keep up with all the discussion and what a marvel it all was/is.  I read your comments, and then wonder about them, and then get distracted and try to find more. 

Andy and Traude, I think this must have been the most difficult discussion ever, to lead.  The structure of the novel itself is difficult to read,  let alone trying to lead discussion in a coherent manner.  You all did wonderfully.

Rosemary, I have put your Voice of America by Oscundu on my Kindle wish list.  The comment about some stories set in America prompted me to wonder if here in the US we had immigration centers, identity papers, etc.  What kind of fears do illegal immigrants who have lived in Arizona for 20 years have?  (I just finished A Trace of Smoke, set in Germany in 1931 just before the Nazis took power, and everyone had to have identity papers then.)  Traude, I can’t imagine what all you have experienced, but your words about your immigration experiences certainly painted a picture of how trying and difficult the process must be.

As you can see, easily distracted.  This morning I’ve been looking for pictures, and have come across this, (see link) from someone’s blog

We entered into Nigeria at a border crossing that it is highly doubtful that any overland truck has gone through before. I should mention that the route we have taken recently has been all new and unexplored so while we have missed some known sights we feel like we have discovered some new and exciting ones that others will follow us to, which is pretty cool.  .    .   .   .  The next few days driving through the remote Nigerian countryside on our way to Abuja (the 1970'a built 'neutral' Nigerian capital) were and always will be just about indescribable.We passed through towns and villages that had rarely seen white people, let alone 20-odd (and some are VERY odd) white people in a big open sided truck driving through or stopping in their village .  .     .     .    .   We changed money, had a beer, and then Sarah and i walked up to the market, where after buying some water we turned around to find we had a following of at least 50 people who just stared, smiled, touched my tattoo and looked genuinely amazed or confused that we were really there.
We passed villages on the dirt road and the people would seemingly come from everywhere, with the kids yelling, screaming, waving, dancing, jumping up and down, and running beside and behind the truck for, and I am serious here, at least 2km's and often almost to the next village.
 I have never seen a reaction like that, they were just so happy to see us and it was such a great shame that we could not stop and say hello to them all.

Nigeria travel


Village picture

This is way long.  More later.




 





 

[bookad]

Pedln-what a terrific article and pictures to stumble upon.  Ironically that is how I found the quote about Nigeria and the oil situation...and I was initially trying to find more information about the Egyptian crisis situation...

I am so glad the students, kids, travellers in that blog had a lovely time, took some wonderful pictures for me to enjoy and left safely...(just  because they were able to leave safely doesn't mean the next group would be able to, one never knows....

Their travels remind me of James Michener's book 'The Drifters' I read many years ago and dreamed of travelling with a like group of 20 year olds

Deb

[straudetwo]

Thank you, Deb,  for staying here with us. 

Perhaps life was easier before instant communication worldwide 24/7,  and before the advent of the web. We can not imagine life without it any more,   and the social groups within it have become important agents of change.

Analysts tell us that Facebook was instrumental in the (essentially peaceful) toppling of the Tunisian government,  for decades notorious for the excesses and nepotism of its leaders. Now the winds of change are blowing in Egypt,  a country much larger than Tunisia,  where protesters demand the resignation of President Mubarak, a dictator. While globalization has increased international business, trade and profits for corporation, it brought millions of unemployed, in Egypt, at home, and many other countries. 

Inequity and exploitation are not new; they existed during colonialism and before.  In Nigeria was so much hope when independence came but, sadly,  not every regime change is for the better.  Yet hope springs eternal.

Pedln thank you for your post,  the travel article and the links. They make the perfect (and, ina way, even a happy !) ending for our discussion.  The story forced Andy and me to take an approach different from the form we normally use, but there was no other choice.  The beautiful, lyrical writing made it all worth while.

My gratitude to my pal, Andy, and to all of you.
Traude

[ALF43]

As I said before, all of you make the discussion what is was.  It was a difficult journey but well worth it for both Traude and for me.  I enjoyed it. 
Traude, you are an excellent leader and it showed.
I am particularly pleased that our two "newbies" Rosemary and deb hung in there until the end.  I hope that you both get as much enjoyment from these boards and the wonderful people that bring their thoughts here as I have in the past 11 years.

UDO

[salan]

I was really disappointed in the last quarter of the book.  It seems like the author got overly descriptive and he also put in some unbelievable (to me, anyway) bits.  I do not think Sarah would have returned to Nigeria with her son.  She would not have put him in harm's way.  The ending was a little contrived and it disappointed me.  I think the book started out much better than it ended.  I don't think I could recommend it to others.  It was too depressing.
Sally

[serenesheila]

For the past couple of days, this book has been very much on my mind.  I almost gave up on it in the early chapters.  I am so very glad that I stayed with it.  Although, it was depressing during much of it, I have come to realize that I am inclined to not read things that are depressing!  I had not realized that until now. 

Now, I believe that to be well informed, I need to read, and listening to things that are depressing.  That is often the case in our world.  My view of Africa will never be the same, after this reading.  The characters in LB were a part of reality.  We are each a part of the reality of this world.  I do not want to be an ostrich, with my head stuck in the sand.

I feel it is very important to watch the news about Egypt.  It is a revolution.  How fortunate we are, to live in a country, where even with strong, disagreements, there is no rioting in the streets.  We sure are not a perfect nation, but we have so much to be grateful for.

For the few days I have been wondering something about the book.  Wouldn't LB have needed a passport to fly back to Nigeria?  How could she have gotten into the country without one?  Funny, how questions such as this pop up now and then.

Thank you, so much Traude, and Andy, for leading us.  You did a wonderful job, and I am so glad that I was a part of it. Traude, when did you immigrate to America?  Thank you for sharing about getting here.

Sheila

[straudetwo]

Sally and Sheila,  your posts are appreciated, thank you both.

I had been thinking about an answer for Sally and was warming my cold hands on a cup of tea, there was Sheila's message.

Sheila, you said it beautifully : "The characters in LB were part of reality. We are each part of the reality of this world."  
Exactly.

Sally, Not every book we read will please or appeal to everyone - or displease, for that matter. We've  different tastes,  temperaments and viewpoints (although all of us surely prefer good news to bad any day).  All I can say is  "to each his own", or  "suum cuique", as the Romans said.

Good and evil coexist in the world,  and though we avoid evil in all its manifestations, we are powerless to escape the reality of it.  As far back as we go in history, there have been wars, for women (Helen of Troy), for land, for power and money, and in this century for oil.

Yes, LB is only a story,  the characters and their actions invented by  the author (narrative license),  but the story is based on undeniable facts, on truth.  The innocent rarely have recourse. But in the eyes of the British LB had entered the country without papers,  she was an illegal. So, legally, they had every right to deport her to her certain doom.  

Sheila,  LB didn't need a passport - she had a personal escort who delivered her into the Nigerian authorities. Her fate was sealed.  Still as long as we hear voices of conscience like Cleave's, there's reason for hope and optimism.  Thank you for your kind words. Thank you for the pleasure of your company all this month. Thanks again, Andy.

With sincere gratitude,
T
P.S.  Sheila we came in the summer of 1954.

[bellamarie]

I was really disappointed in the last quarter of the book.  It seems like the author got overly descriptive and he also put in some unbelievable (to me, anyway) bits.  I do not think Sarah would have returned to Nigeria with her son.  She would not have put him in harm's way.  The ending was a little contrived and it disappointed me.  I think the book started out much better than it ended.  I don't think I could recommend it to others.  It was too depressing.
Sally

Sally~  I think the majority consensus agrees with you and have expressed it pretty much using the same words, including me.  While Cleave did an excellent job in bringing awareness to the issues of immigration, discrimination, government cover up, torture, mistreatment in the immigration centres, etc., he fell short to give the ending an acceptable, believable ending.  Its not to criticize the author, its a critique that we the reader are allowed to do, and every author welcomes.  

I would recommend this book to my friends and family members because I feel it is based on facts where the issues at hand are concerned.  The characters lacked emotion IMO, and so I was not able to connect to any of them, except maybe Charlie.  

Thank you Andy and Traude, you did a great job with this difficult book.  To all who posted it made for a very enlightening discussion for me, I will refrain from naming each of you for fear I would leave someone out which would appear thoughtfuless of me.  I look forward to future book discussions with all of you.

We are expecting at least a foot of snow in the coming week, so I am ready for a nice light read to snuggle up with.

Udo~ Bellamarie  

[bookad]

I had posted this information earlier, but somehow it got lost on my computer...I had wanted to tell of a sad scenario I heard related on our home radio of CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) last summer...it related a true account of a man from either Africa or some other third world country who was trying to remain in our country.  He had been in the country for a few years apparently, with sponsors and had become a member of the community he lived in, having a business he began ...somewhere in the maritime provinces...everyone in the community couldn't say enough wonderful things about this man...he had a major struggle to just get into Canada in the first place probably escaping and struggling thru countries evading authorities to reach a hopeful safe haven....
...the sad ending to this tale is the authorities finally said 'no' to his application for landed immigrant status and he was to be returned to ;his country of origin....the man hung himself on a tree on a favourite walking path of his the day before he was to be taken to the airport to leave

that man's tale stayed with me for days, I felt for him (of course there was much more to this story...)  ...how coincidental to find myself in a book of this nature

it just reaffirms the sadness in many parts of our world...and how with the internet we are forced to be more aware of what goes on in other countries 

I am so pleased to be a part to this discussion, and to have read this book (that is one of the best things about book groups is finding books outside of one's usual repertoire)

thank you

Deb

[ALF43]

Traude- You and I could not ask for a more appropriate ending to our discussion than the opinions on this last page.
They have deeply moved me and Sheila said it well-
 

Now, I believe that to be well informed, I need to read, and listening to things that are depressing.  That is often the case in our world.  My view of Africa will never be the same, after this reading.

The grand finale and I thank each one of you, especially my leader, Traude.

Udo~~~ Andy