Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online

[straudetwo]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

January Book Club Online  "Little Bee" by Chris Cleave Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined. In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion.

Facts: *Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960.  Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens. *Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world.  Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high.  There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse? *The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens  for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called,  to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing  numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense.

Reading Schedule

January 2,   Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9,   Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16,  Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31,  Conclusions  

Discussion Leaders:  Traude and Andy

Ella, yes, we are trying to digest the enormities in Chapters Six and Seven now.

Thank you for the link on the Border Agency's Immigration Removal Centres in the UK. I read  it several times.  It is an orderly overview and sounds less grim than the reality of it might be. i

There is no mention whether men and women are housed in the same building(s) but separated in different wings for the night - which was LB's reported experience.

The list of available facilities is impressive :
a library,  formal education classes,  and on-the-job training (!) to prepare them for their return home,
and so are the photos.

We know that medical help was available at the fictional Black Hill Immigration detention center, a nurse, psychiatrists,  volunteers, as LB told Sarah. And the repeated advice for her  was "to move on" - while remaining locked up.

As for visiting a detainee : I wonder how many people avail themselves of that possibility ? Wouldn't they afraid to death?

As for returning to the homeland : I believe persons who are certain to be killed when they go back are not likely to turn themselves in and agree t return voluntarily. The only remaining  option is  enforced removal, aka deportation.  

Sarah tells us that it did not take her long to discover that she and Andrew did not have much in common.  He was always so certain, analytical,  and had very firm opinions. Even though she argued and rebelled, she depended on his practical advice; perhaps she was a bit afraid of him.

She also says she lost interest (in Andrew) after Charlie was born.  Could she have had post partum depression without knowing it ?

And then she met Lawrence. She fell into his arms like a ripe fruit. She began to need him, to adore him, thought she loved him.  For six months she risked a scandal, appearing at parties and public functions with Lawrence, never once thinking of Lawrence's wife or children, but using every occasion to meet him duing the day and evening, as long as she could find a baby sitter for Charlie, while Andrew was working day and night on the special Times project.
But one night they met a party,  with Lawrence making the introductions.

Andrew left home that night and did not come back for a week. Charlie, about two years old and not yet in his Batman persona, missed his father -  Sarah pleaded and he agreed to return. That's when the idea was born that they'd take a beach holiday and patch up their marriage.  And the choice was Nigeria.

By way of explanation Sarah says (in the middle of Chapter Four ) "That season in Nigera there was an oil war. Andrew and I hadn't known. The struggle was brief, confused, and scarcely reported. The British and Nigerian governments both deny to this day that it even took place. ..."  (emphasis mine)
(Those who have the paperback, there's more on pg. 99.)

They came home, emotionally devastated. Andrew withdrew even more, Sarah was persuaded by Lawrence "to forget all about it". And the affair went on.  Each had made their choice.   We readers are the horrified bystanders, unable to intervene in any way. The story is gripping at this point.
Lawrence is a light-weight in every way,  petty, jealous, Unlike Andrew, Lawrence has no opinions, certainly not the courage of opinions. Was Cleave possibly taking a stab at British civil servants ?  He describes them as Sarah observes them that morning as they enter the Home Office building.
Lawrence is weaselly and a liar.  He concocted the idea of the workshop ( 3 nights!) in Birmingham,  even bought presents beforehand for his children - lest he forget later. Did his wife believe him ? Did she take a lover in revenge (as Sarah belatedly speculated) ? Had he walked out on Linda before?
We don't know.
And Sarah allowed him to stay, conditionally, one imagines. But in the marital bed ! A week after Andrew's death!
Now I need to find the passage where Sarah opines that adultery is not a major transgression ...
I could not disagree more.

Jude, of course it makes perfect sense that Charlie sought refuge in Batman and all he represented, and give him the power to poke for baddies in the garden, or swinging his toy golf club along the sidewalk, decapitating roses.

Next the struggle for Sarah's affection and Andrew's encounter with a ghost from the past.
He might well have experienced such an encounter many times in the past two years in his sleepless nights, a half empty bottle nearby and his daily Cipralex tablet.

[Babi]

  Well said, JUDE. You're right, Andrew and Sarah were both struggling so hard they were
unable to help each other. Ideally, they should have been able to support one another in
getting through that trauma, but apparently they had never built that kind of structure
in their marriage.
  I had to smile at your image of Lawrence as a 'comfort blanket'. It fits!

 Thanks for that link about the detention centers, ELLA. Little Bee's did have books and
classes, and provided basic medical care as needed.
 
 I agree, TRAUDE, that Sarah's behavior after Andrew's death is unjustifiable. Sarah, however,
seems quite able to justify what she wants to do.  It is a side of her character that does not
appeal.  At the same time, there are facets to her that are appealing.  So...what am I saying?
She's human, just like the rest of us?
   And the Little Bee says of herself,   “There is nowhere to go.  I have discovered the person I am and I do not like her.  I am the same as Andrew.  I am the same as you.  I tried to save myself.”    Isn't it the most basic of human instincts, to try to save oneself?  To be glad when
we survive?  Yet we are ashamed when our actions betray that.  What complicated creatures
we are.

[straudetwo]

Babi,  exactly.
Human frailty is responsible for all kinds of trespasses. According to the ancient saying :  Errare humanum est , to err is human.  

Minor and major misdeeds are  committed all the time and - despite fervent promises  that "it will never happen again"-  are often repeated.  Again. In sum,  we all  bear responsibility for our own conduct and  must follow our own moral compass.

I belvie Chapter Seven is the most important in the story. We thought we knew all the "facts", the whole truth; we believed in the reliability of the narrators. So LB's confession that she had arrived at the house  three days before the funeral, hid in the garden, watched Andrew (who did not play withCharlie),  and eventually showed herself to him,  is extraordinary.

Equally startling is the fact that she reveals all that to Lawrence, who is anything but an ally and will never be a friend.

In this chapter the author makes  the dilemma of  his characters the readers' own conundrum.
What would we do in such a life-and-death situation?
Aren't we expected to love our neighbors like ourselves?
Can we simply ignore and wish away what we don't want to worry about, like NIMBY for wind turbines?

I'd like to go into the conversation between LB and Lawrence. I'd love to hear Jude's assessment.

More later

[JudeS]

Well Straude you asked for my opinion and here it is.
First you suggest that we should love our neighbor like ourselves. What happens if you don't love yourself? Neither LB or Lawrence like themselves very much.
We know why LB is that way and she has good reason but the author gives us no background on Lawrence--something that might have turned this from an interesting book into a great one.
Why does Sarah chooses men like this?-Andrew , a depressive and a coward and a bit insane as well and Lawrence: a clever empty vessel. A person so shallow I fear he would drown in two inches of real sorrow. Again no background.
The confession of LB is the pivotal turning point of the story.  It shows that LB has not emerged unscathed from the horrors she has experienced. Although these events have made her adult in some senses they have left her traumatized and childlike  in other aspects of her development. Her Post Traumatic Stress is so severe that she may never be normal again.
This is so sad! Man's inhumanity to man and especially to young girls.

[ALF43]

BRAVO JUDES-your assessment was very well put forth and as I've said time and again throughout our read the atrocities that our fellow men subject others to are impossible to imagine.  This is all so barbaric, heartless and vicious, it is difficult to endure.
There's that old saying that kept coming back to me as I reread those chapters.  I don't know who "coined" the phrase but it is:
"the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".
How many times during this story could someone have stepped up to the plate?

[straudetwo]

Jude,  thank you for your  assessment.  Lacking your expertise,  none of us could have formulated it so well. Your insights also address questions that have formed in our winds  as we  read together -  and that's precisely what we expected.  None of it could have been be articulated beforehand.

My questions in the previous posts were based on those Cleave seemed to be intimating, not my own.  Even so, I believe the book is meant to be a wake-up call.  It has attracted world-wide attention, and earlier today I read that Nicole Kidman and her production company have acquired the film rights to  LB,  in which Nicole K will play Sarah,   starting next year (I think).

Man's inhumanity to man,  indeed.  None worse in human memory than the Holocaust. An  unforgettable experience for those wo lived there at that time. as I did.  This is not the time for my personal story, even though my experience has made me more responsive to the plight of the fictional LB,  although the circumstances were altogether different.

Andy, life is transitory, and while we're here,  we have to do good so that  the good  BEin the world.[/b]

Ny  imporessions and related questions :

※ I do not believe  LB could have been a physical danger to any one, in Kingston or anywhere else.
※ LB was a teenager,  quite possibly having  arrested personal and social development, as Jude suggested, how could she have known about depression or 'mind games' ? Can we even begin to imagine her upbringing?
A TV without innards; the same movie four or five years in a row,  no sound but that of the generator.
※ Cleave is deliberately vague on the oil war, but there must be more than kernel of truth in what he said in this book.  We might also consider the possibility that BP was facilitating the drilling in Nigeria all along.

※ How would you describe the "conversation" Lawrence had with LB the next morning ?
IMHO it was threatening,  an amateurish attempt atf an  (FBI) interrogation, which produced no result (other than LB's confession).  What the reader clearly sees is Lawrence with  his insecurities, vulnerability and utter emotional dependence on Sarah, plainly laid open.
But we cannot sympathize, we have no background and no idea of the root f the problem.
That is a flaw that must be attributed to the author.

Back tomorrow.
Traude

[deems 2]

I think that is a lovely assessment, Jude.  An empty vessel is a good description of Lawrence. 

All of the characters leave me feeling somewhat empty.  Sarah, Andrew and Lawrence certainly.  Batman is okay, but he is pretty young and unformed.  Little Bee is the most accessible character.  But even Little Bee confuses me.  Sometimes she shrugs things off and sometimes she flashes temper.  Her confession is a result of that temper.  She is angry that Lawrence doesn't see her as a real person.  This child has been through incredible horror.  She has the right to be furious about so many things.  And yet being ignored by empty old Lawrence enrages her. 

To me the book seems very plot driven.  The characters are instruments of the plot.  I think this is a shame because it is easy to separate from the book because I am not invited in by the characters.  I would like to feel the horror with Little Bee, the despair with Andrew, the confusion and terror with Sarah, the desperation with Lawrence, and the uncertainty with Batman.  I don't need to like the characters, but I think the book would be stronger if they were more three dimensional.

[bellamarie]

deems 2~   I completely agree with what you are saying. To me the book seems very plot driven.

I've been trying to put my finger on why I haven't been able to attach myself to any of these characters.  They ALL are void IMO.  Yes, all humans have character flaws, but I do feel Cleave has not allowed enough feelings to let the reader really root for one or more of the characters.  Sure we all would like to see Little Bee get her papers and continue to live legally so she can have the life she wants and deserves to have.  But other than that where do you see all of this going? 

Sarah seems rather lost and empty now that Andrew is not here to make her decisions for her.  Lawrence actually realizes she is now trying to get him to pick up where Andrew left off and tell her what to do.  I respect the fact Lawrence advises her not to quit her job at this time.  He says wait six months and see how you feel.  He also is the voice of reason where it would seem natural for a loved one to voice their concern for someone making impulsive decisions and putting herself in harms way.  Lawrence is right when he points out Sarah harboring a refugee is breaking the law and taking a risk of her own freedom.  Prison could be the result of her actions.

Sarah's actions before the trip to Nigeria, on the beach, before Andrew's death and afterwards is impulsive.  She acts before thinking things through.  I'm not a big fan of Lawrence but I  must say in these chapters he at least is thinking clear, and is very concerned for Sarah and Charlie, as well he should be.

Traude~  Nicole Kidman playing the role of Sarah sounds perfect.  I wonder who could play Little Bee....maybe Dakota Fanning?

I'm off to finish the assigned chapters to see where this is going.

Ciao for now~

[rosemarykaye]

I agree, Bellemarie, that is exactly what is wrong - the book is plot driven, and Cleave is determined to tell us what he wants to tell us, at the expense of credibility at times.  Unfortunately this spoils the book for me.

I suppose Lawrence is really Mr Average UK, and as such the most believable character.  The things he says and does make us dislike him - but at least we believe in him, we all (I expect) know people who would behave just like him; in fact I expect I would think along the same lines as him about Sarah having all these fanciful ideas of saving Little B from deportation.  We've all said we loathe Lawrence - at least we feel something about him.

I have to add a tiny word about oil companies here - it might not have been BP!  It could have been Shell or half a dozen others, I am not too sure who is most active in Nigeria.  There are wars and atrocities going on in many places because of oil.  It has been shown, I understand, that the terrible BP oil disaster in the US arose from cost cutting and mismanagement.  Unfortunately, so long as people want cheap petrol these things are going to continue.  Living in an oil city, I know many people who work for BP, Shell, etc, and I am 100% sure that they are horrified about these things - they are not bad people, they are decent hardworking people under pressure just like the rest of us to keep their jobs and do the best they can.  I cannot answer for the top management - don't know any of them! - but the people lower down are all constantly pressurised to produce better results for less money.  The shareholders also consistently press the companies for better income, and many of the big shareholders are pension funds - ie the companies that manage our private pensions, if we have them.  They are under constant pressure to provide more income for their pensioners.  So, IMO, there is no one person or company to be blamed for all of this - we all (and maybe especially the US) want cheap petrol, we all want better pensions, etc.

My husband left the oil industry to work in developing wave power.  many of his colleagues said they really wished they could do the same thing, but they felt it was too much of a risk when they had young families to support, etc.  He was lucky in that he has academic background in wave technology - and also in that we were prepared to take the risk (so far, so good!).  However, that certainly does not absolve us from the collective blame - we are just as concerned about our pensions, the cost of food (which depends so much on the oil price), etc etc.  I think we all have to look at our consciences here, because in the end does it not boil down to we in the west not being prepared to share our comfortable, secure lifestyle?  I am just as guilty of this as the next person.

Rosemary

[serenesheila]

I am having trouble letting go of thoughts about how many in this world, are living in a similiar situation to that of LB.  Until reading this book, I heard about some of this, in the news.  I really feel for the people who are living in chaos, or detention centers.  I also wonder, how much I would be affected, if I were in that situation?

I am very glad that I am reading LB.  This is one of those books which I doubt that I will ever be able to forget.  It is changing my view of the world.

Sheila

[nolvikarn]

Hello all!
Reading all your analyses of the three grown ups, it seems to me that you don't like or admire or accept theirs behavior.
Who am I to judge anybody? In this case those three miserable people are each one captured in their narrow lives.
Sarah as a career woman, temporarily a housewife. Unsure of herself and her mission.
Andrew a journalist losing his engagement, feeling as a failure.
And Lawrence, the civil servant with no opinions outside his set of regulations. His crutches.

This is not an excuse for adultery, suicide or lack of civil courage. I don't think either me nor my wife would have excused such a behavior. So, by all means, I don't think you are bigot in any way. But if circumstances work against you, everything could happen.
And the only person whom is coming out of all this is as a better person in fact Sarah. But she has got a long way to go to become a full human being. In my opinion she has grown and wants to be a strong woman who can take her own decisions and decide what best for her an her boy. I think she will succeed.
 
Much about Sarah. Next time about Lil Bee and our guilt, neutrality or disinterest.

olle

[serenesheila]

ROSEMARY, thank you for your last post.  You gave me a lot of food for thought!  My monthly income includes two pensions.  Yet, I had never connected that my pension fund is invested in the oil industry.

In 1955 my husband was stationed in Saudi, Arabi.  He sent home pictures to me, of people who had broken the law, having parts of their body cut off.  They horrified me!  Yet, that was a common practice there.,is it still? 

I watched a program on Book TV from last weekend.  The author of "Hero" was one of those interviewed.  He talked quite a bit, about Lawrence of Arabi, who is the hero of the book.  How L. was so disappointed by the UK's unwillingness to honor the commitments L. had made to the Arabs.  Makes me want to know more, about the middle east from that time in history.

Sheila

[bellamarie]

Ollie~  Hmmmm....so far I have not seen much growth in Sarah and I think that's what is bothering me where she is concerned,  I am into chapter 8 and she is saying how much she misses Andrew because he pretty much guided her to make her decisions and now wants Andrew to do it for her.  When she returned to work (which I believe was much too soon) she seemed hither skither, and kept expecting Clarissa to make the final decision on the refugee article as though Clarissa was her supervisor rather than subordinate.  Clarissa treats Sarah almost as if she is a child, much like Andrew and Lawrence do, and strangely even Little Bee takes on the adult role with Charlie and Sarah seems perfectly comfortable allowing this total stranger, illegal refugee step into her spot.  I think Clarissa's statement expresses my feelings best when she learns Lawrence has spent the night.  Clarissa shivered.  "I know.  It's just a bit creepy, that's all.  Sudden, I suppose I mean."  Well it wasn't my idea, if you must know."  "In which case, I revert to my original choice of word, Creepy."

Rosemary~ Thank you for the info and opinions on our dependence, comfort and cupability on oil.  We all want the comforts from what oil brings to our lives, but when we read, hear or see instances such as these and the BP oil spill, we sort of want to look the other way.  I am very good friends with many workers here in Ohio where there is a BP refinery.  My friend Rick (yes the same one who says, "It's just a movie.") he was very worried about losing his enormous income when BP's reputation and stock was falling.  Morally, I think all of our group of friends felt uncomfortable to even discuss the wrongdoing on BP's part.  Yes, indeed it was caused due to trying to cut costs and poor management.  Much like in this story, government didn't want to admit or deal with it at first.  I think the frame of mind was, it will go away if we keep it out of the press.  It reminded me of how they handled the Vietnam and Iraq wars, don't show the public the pictures so they can go on living in their comfy lives and the ugly realty can be denied.  But the pictures began getting released, and much like this story, reality began hitting us in the face. 

Shelia~ I'm with you, this story is awakening and will last with us long after some close the last page or others as myself shelve it in my Nook.  But....much like Clarissa, I'm afraid we will react as she did, how can we make a difference in bringing it to the forefront when people want what sells......fashion, food, movies etc. things that keep us comfortable and can escape the harsh realities such as this. 

Ciao for now~










l

[Babi]

Excellent!, JUDE, about people who don't like themselves.
And this line, "A person so shallow I fear he would drown in two
inches of real sorrow." That is wonderful.
  Traude mentioned your expertise, JUDE. What is your field? If
it's been posted before, I missed it, but you definitely have a
way with words.

 In the midst of all these horrendous revelations, I felt that I didn’t want to know all that.  I felt like an intruder, as though I was eavesdropping on something really private.  Obviously, I was being
shoved out of my comfort zone. Probably good for me.

[Ella Gibbons]

Two days ago in my city at 1 a.m. in the morning a black man came to a few doors in a nice neighborhood; he was naked and bleeding and begging to be let in.  He was refused at several and police were called.  They didn't find him.  The next day a blood trail led to a shed where the man lay dead from hypothermia; he was identified later as a person with bipolar and schzophrenic disorders.  It is not a perfect world. 

People are weak and fearful.  Nigeria is a country being robbed of its resources, too weak to protest.  The characters in the book all have flaws, I enjoyed reading a book that can be discussed in such detail and I will see the movie when it comes out.  Kidman is a good choice.

[Ella Gibbons]

Character flaws in real life.  I am reminded today of President Kennedy (see Google); a man who is honored for his charm, his speeches, his presidency.  But we have to remember his mistakes, his weaknesses, his female associations - to put it mildly:

  http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2009/01/4-kennedys-failure-at-the-bay-of-pigs-top-10-mistakes-by-us-presidents/

[ALF43]

Oh hello to you all today.  Your posts are wonderful and I don't know where to start.  Plot driven story vs. character driven.  I think we have both; Characters are central to this story and the events arise from the characters and their interactions, with one another.
In a plot driven story the intricacies of the plot are the most important aspect of the story and the characters are secondary.  If that is true and characters act in accordance with the plot then what the heck is the plot?  I think that is where I became confused.  Aren't there elements of both?

In a character driven story why can't the characters be flat as long as they have enough traits to fulfill their function in this work?  Dynamic vs. static characters?  Now I'm really confused.  I sure agree with Rosemary and bella that a three-dimensional developed characterization would be a heck of a lot better but----

Now this thought takes me (notice how my mind never stays put where it belongs) to the whole gist of this mess which is OIL EXPLORATION.
As we speak there is a growth trend in Nigereia with growing numbers of Wall Street pro talking up Africa as the next "great investment."  Goldman Sachs asset-management chief, known for spotting opportunities in Brazil, Russia, China and India (the BRIC phenomena) declares that Africa has interesting potential.  Even Walmart made a $4 billion dollar bid to buy So. Africa's Massmart.  These investors are looking for these natural resources i.e. Africa which holds 40% of the world's strategic raw materials, such as gold, iron ore and OIL!  Now China has tapped in and money is coming forth.
Guess which country gets the investors most excited?  Yes, Nigeria.  I don't see the "big boys" ever playing nice. They will mow down anyone who gets in the way, just as described in Little Bee.

I think we all have to look at our consciences here, because in the end does it not boil down to we in the west not being prepared to share our comfortable, secure lifestyle?  I am just as guilty of this as the next person.

Well said Rosemary.

Back after water aerobics.

[JudeS]

Deems.
In answer to your question re: my background...
By profession I am a Psychotherapist. Last April I retired (finally).
Now my spare time is spent in writing..I had non fiction professional articles published while working but now I am trying to write some fiction. I also belong to the CA Poets Society for my little attempts at that genre.

Once you try writing on your own you learn how difficult it is to really accomplish something in that arena.

[bellamarie]

Jude~ How exciting!  I too am a writer and have been published in the Poet's Society.  I have a few children's books I have written and hope to publish.  I would love to find the time to write a novel but that is not likely for some time with owning my full time in home day care.  Good luck to you on your venture into writing fiction, you've certainly got insight and a way with words.

So, without delay I will be the first to open the discussion about the trip to London and how Little Bee attempted to leave to begin her new life on her own.  I was shocked to think she actually crossed the bridge, but in my own thoughts I did not see her actually leaving.  Why does she see Lawrence as a threat, and why so much anger when she saw Sarah, Lawrence and Charlie together?  He has not done anything to give me suspicions he would harm Sarah or Charlie.  And now of all things chapter nine ends with Charlie missing.  Oh my heavens, can anything more go wrong with this story? 

I had such a difficult time reading how Charlie is afraid if he takes off his Batman costume his Daddy will be gone forever and then Little Bee tells him of the baddies inside her and that everyone has baddies inside of them.  Now seriously, this is not something she had any right to tell Charlie knowing he has such fears as a four year old.  Just the mention of monsters/baddies is going to stick in a child's mind.  Charlie already was dealing with the baddies in his world outside his body, but now how does he deal with her telling him there are baddie inside his body.  As my Italian Grandmother would say....Mama Mia!

Ciao for now~

[Babi]

 Good for you, JUDE.  I believe you have the talent; all you need is a
compelling inspiration.   

 To divert a bit...It made my heart ache when Little Bee wrote of the tattered Bible in her village.   The pages were missing after  Matthew 24:46, so their Bible ended with “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”  She says  “We understood that this was the end of the story”.   Quite outrageously,  I found myself wanting to smack Chris Cleave for writing that.
   
  Lawrence, commenting on the fact that most people aren’t interested in treading about the important issues of life,  ”So people’s lives are hard enough.  You can see how they might not want to be reminded that everyone else’s lives are shit too.”  I hadn’t thought of it quite that way, though I should have.  I quite understood that much of the pleasure of my reading was pure escapism, but I’m afraid I have tended to  feel superior to people who read what I consider trashy magazines.   Mea culpa.



 

[ALF43]

Babi- It always amazes me to read your selected quotes.  Most of them are the exact ones that I've taken from the text, as well.  
We must surely be on the same wave length.  Oh boy, watch out.
Most of my reading has always been escapism ever since I was a child too but now I find myself venturing and reaching into uncomfortable areas, like Little Bee.

Jude and Bella- I tip my hat to both of you.  What you are doing takes such a huge commitment it has always frightened me away.
Bella- you ask

Why does she see Lawrence as a threat, and why so much anger when she saw Sarah, Lawrence and Charlie together?  

I am certain that she sees Lawrence as a threat because he has threatened her!  He even reminded her that it was just a matter of time until they "come for her."  He retreated some when LB threatened him back by her caution that she would tell Linda of his philandering.  
As she witnessed them all together could she have been a bit angry because she had lost her family and Sarah still had her family?  (of sorts)

[bellamarie]

Andy~ I am certain that she sees Lawrence as a threat because he has threatened her!

The entire conversation that Lawrence and Little Bee had was about his concern for the fact Sarah was harboring an illegal refugee and what it would do to her life and yes, his. Lawrence says, "I've just admitted to you that I'd sell you down the river if I could.  You're the brave little refugee girl, and I'm the selfish bastard.  I think our roles here are pretty clearly delineated, don't you?"

Little Bee seemed as much of a threat when she responded, "Now you think I am  a sweet little girl, do you?  In your mind you still don't think I exist.  It does not occur to you that I can be clever, like a white person.  That I can be selfish, like a white person." I realized I was so angry I was shouting.  "I left Sarah's husband hanging in the air," I said." Then she goes on to say, "I wanted to punish Andrew for letting my sister be killed."

For me, I see Little Bee more of a threat than Lawrence.  Yes, I do think she is jealous of the love and happiness she sees Sarah has when she is with Lawrence and she wants to be the person there for Sarah.   When she saw the three of them on the beach happy she realized she was not a part of it and that I think is what made her angry enough to leave.  Little Bee has issues with men, and I think that is why she does not want Lawrence around Sarah.  As she stated, "Maybe you are the kind of help that only arrives when it wants sexual intercourse."  I sense Little Bee can not phantom a man loving a woman emotionally, she only sees them wanting the physical act.  Her statement in judging Lawrence's feelings for Sarah comes from her only just meeting Sarah and Lawrence. "A wolf must be a wolf and a dog must be a dog."  So are ALL men in Little Bee's eyes the same as the ones who raped and terroriszed her sister?  

Ciao for now~

[straudetwo]

We had more snow over night, and what remains of my grotesquely severed rhododendron is heavily weighted down.
Sorry to be late. Thank you for your comments posted both yesterday and today.

EWith respect, I am not yet ready for Chapter Nine, nor have we discussed Chapter Eight adequately enough IMHO. 

First, a few responses to earler posts. 

Re plot-driven.
Early in this discussion some of you remarked on the absence of a plot, and I answered at that time (and I paraphrase) "so far LB's journey IS the plot".  Aa bit of a shift, then ? We can revisit this point when we sum things up.

We don't know whence Cleave's inspiration for this book came, but we do know that he worked as a volunteer in an immigration center for a year.
Yes, he is determined to bring home his point.  Oil exploration and connneced violence, the exploitation and safety of oil workers are hot-button issues. We see and read about it every day from all parts of the world. Indifference is widespread, and its best spokesma in this story is Lawrence.
Immigration, especially the illegal kind, is intricately linked,  but right now I'd like to talk about characters a little more.

Take Sarah, founder with Clarissa of her own fashion magazine, deliberately pandering to sexual phantasies, a magaine she calls  edgy, brazen and successful in an earlier chapter.

In Chapter Eight sh tells us why they named it Nixie, what they meant by it, and at the same time she questions whether it is really all worth while,  even proposing a lead article about female asylum seekers (!). for the July issue.
Clarissa's  reaction is predictable - though likely true.

"... Your're the boss. Of course I'll get you a feature on refugees if you really want it. But I really don't understand how quickly people's eyes will glaze over.It isn't an issue that affects anyone's own life..."
Exactly.
Fewer readers, less happiness at the cash register. Not advisable. The gospel of Lawrence. 

Who threatens whom is in the eye of the beholder/reader. I agree with Andy.
This whole exercise, the conversation in the kitchen between LB and Lawrence was a shake-down.
To do that without Sarah being present was underhanded, to say the very least. LB was not his problem; he was not the master of the house,  he was  not the husband but the paramour, and his concern for Sarah  did not give him the right to take matters into his own hand, which was a betrayal of Sarah - not an act of love.

He badgered LBrelentlessly, he threatened her with exposure, he explained the rules about refugees. When she said : "I have been in your country for two years. I know your rules." (emphasis mine) Bellamarie read this as "I know your rules."

But LB had no rules of her own, how could she ?
As I said before, I  do not believe she would ever have been a danger to Sarah or Charlie and will say no more about this aspect.'

In despair she told Lawrence the story of Andrew's last days. Lawrence realized it as crucial  information.  But  he acted right then, it would unravel the whole ball of wool, reveal the affair with Sarah, ruin his career, destroy his marriage to Linda. In the end hry agreed to not mention any of this to Sarah.  Another betrayal.

Sheila, I am so glad you do not regret reading the book,  neither do I. LB's story tugged at my heart strings, especially as she described  the agonizingly slow killing of her sister. The hinted-at cannibalism made me shudder.

Tre's be more;  I'm working on other responses.
 

[bellamarie]

Traude~ "Who threatens whom is in the eye of the beholder/reader."

Well said Traude, and I think in this case I must agree to disagree with Lawrence being the only threat, and Little Bee being the victim.  I have not read ahead so I will have to wait and see if my suspicions hold true.  I for some reason have not been able to feel compassion for Little Bee.  She is very cunning and yes, she is betraying Sarah by not telling her she came before Andrew's suicide, and that she actually was there, saw it all and did nothing to help him.  That for me is the ultimate betrayal.  How will Sarah react if and when this is finally revealed?  Sarah has put her complete trust in Little Bee, she gave her finger to save her life, at the least she deserves to not be lied to.   Little Bee began her betrayal to Sarah long before Lawrence came to her home.

Just knowing the two of them are deceiving Sarah upsets me, regardless of their reasons.  Sorry if I seem to keep addressing this, for some reason I can't get past this whole plot of deception.

Ciao for now~

[straudetwo]

Correction.  A word missing from the second sentence in the penultimate paragraph of my earlier post. The sentence should read "But had he acted ... etc.

Now to finish my thoughts on Sarah.
Both she and Andrew were unable to forget the horror that had shaken their lives to the foundation. The depth and seriousness of Andrew's depression totally eluded Sarah, whose attempt to forget were similarly unsuccessful. Her reconstructed existence crashed with Andrew's unexpected death and LB's appearance at the house on the day of the funeral. She did what was nrequired, automatically, in a mental and emotional void,  not able to mourn, not even cry.

Slowly, when  LB began her story,  part of Sarah's memory of that fateful day returned, and with it a new consciousness, and the feeling of responsibility for LB.  Her plans to hunt down LB's non-existent papers and caseworker were as unrealistic as the idea to hire a solicitor to file an appeal when no charge had even been brought.  Sarah was in no condition to pick up at the magazine where she had left off.

Babi,  yes, it's well worth turning back to the earlier chapters; there are many lovely thoughts exquisitely formulated.  Thank you for those you quoted.

Wonderful to hear of your writing , Jude, and Bellamarie. Self-publishing has become very popular in recent years and the way to go for those who don't have an agent.

[serenesheila]

It is the middle of the night, here at my home.  I just finished our book.  As I have said before, I almost stopped reading after Chapters 1 & 2.  Tonight, I am so very glad that I kept going.  From the begining I was drawn to Sara.  By the middle of the book, I was attached to LB.  In addition, I felt that Batman was adorable and loveable.

IMO, both Sara and Lawrence were equally dependent upon the other.  I am under the iimpression that Lawrence showed more emotion to Sara, than Andrew ever had.  Other than depression, I do not remember it was never mentioned that Andrew showed any emotion.  If I am in a relationship with a man, I want him to show me his emotional side. 

I loved the relationship that LB had with Batman.  They seem to have really bonded with each other.  It was beautiful.  I found it wonderful that Charlie was allowed to BE Batman, so much of the time.  I also was unhappy with how little emotional energy both Andrew and Sara seemed to have invested in their child.  Often he was with other care givers both day and night.

It seems to me that it was foolish, for Sara, LB and Charlie to be on the beach in Nigeria.  It was a similiar foolishness to the time Andrew and Sarah did the same thing. 


Time for bed now.  More tomorrow.



Sheila

[Babi]

 ALF, it's a pleasure to be on a wave length with you. If we could
meet we would probably be constantly interrupting one another with
"Oh, yes! Isn't that...."

 

So are ALL men in Little Bee's eyes the same as the ones who raped and terrorized her sister? 

BELLAMARIE
  I would think, under those circumstances, it would be hard not
to regard all male strangers with fear and anger. Little Bee
must have some good memories of the men of her family and village,
but they may be the only ones she could trust now. It would surely
take a long acquaintance to allow her to wholly trust men now.

 TRAUDE, don't you think that all men who love or 'possess' a woman
feel, to some degree, that they take on the role of protector. It
seems to be a very deep instinct in human nature. Men who lack it
seem to become predators and abusers instead.  Perhaps I am
over-generalizing, but I can't see Lawrence's protectiveness as a
betrayal of Sarah's rights.  Somewhat officious, perhaps.

 SHEILA, thank you for bringing up the bond between LB and Charlie.
That was, I believe, a great comfort to them both and needed to be
recognized.

[Ella Gibbons]

BABI, far and away (so far away that I've only dated 2 men in my life and one was my husband of 54 years) from being any kind of an expert on men, I agree with you when you stated:  "all men who love or 'possess' a woman
feel, to some degree, that they take on the role of protector. It seems to be a very deep instinct in human nature.

However, I have no opinion on those who do not as being abusers, but that's an interesting observation!

How do the rest of you feel about this issue?

LB said to herself - "there is no them.  This endless procession of people, walking along beside this great tiver, these people are you."     I loved that - there is no "them."  But, of course, she was wrong. 

[straudetwo]

Sheila,   thank you very much for your post. You expressed exactly what I felt all along.  

Babi,  I understand your point. It's just that in this case, I believe, Lawrence was protecting not only Sarah but himself, for all the reasons stated on page 195, Chapter Seven. But trying to take action without telling Sarah is dishonest. The most benevolent thing he says to LB is "I wish I could just make you disappear".

In London by the Thames, LB and Lawrence are again alone for a few minutes, and he begs her again to go away - even offers her money. "You offer me Money to go away ?" is all she says. Then she asks for the names of his wife and children. The reader sees the children's names for the first time.

"Sonia, Stephen. And Simon's the - hm - the baby ...", he says  (a baby conceived during the affair) "You should go back to them" , LB says quietly. Lawrence looks at her, his eyes expressionless. But the handwriting is clearly on the wall.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the rapidly unfolding events.
Thank you.
Traude

[JudeS]

'Sheila
I too agree with your opinions.Thank you.
Now I want to bring up the fact that a certain part of the New testament is mentioned. I think Cleave is a clever writer and there had to be more to this so I went to the Book of Mathew as it appears in the Bible I own (There are different translations I know) and Chapter Six ends in this way:
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own".
Chapter Seven begins: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
The exact part mentioned Mathew 27:46  "My God,myGod, why have you forsaken me". would be in my mind if I was LB's sister being raped, tortured and killed by the men. I was close to tears as that scene was brought to mind because of these words.

[straudetwo]

Ella, indeed, the protective instinct is one men share (and should all possess). When there isn't  sufficient emotional support from either spouse, or if expressions of tenderness and affection are lacking, a marriage can falter.  I saw it happen with my parents.  Their marriage ended with my father's death,  but it was over years before.  

Since then enormous societal changes have brought a very different concept and dynamic to  traditional relationships. With the women's liberation movement there came more recognition for women in careers, some have broken through the glass ceiling, but there still is no full pay equity. Over he years came more changes of a different sort, not all to my liking - if I may say. But that is another story.

Sheila, yTrue,  Andrew did not show any affection for Sarah. He talked down to her,  ridiculed her career efforts and told her to grow up.  He lectured her. They had loud arguments. And the f-word became relentlessly automatic.  No wonder Charlie found his model in the world of Batman and Robin!

Words can inflict as much pain as a knife. And I believe that it is important not only what we say but how we say it. "The tone makes the music."

At this point in the story, Sarah has decided to throw in her lot with Lawrence  ("I've a son to raise". ) She's made another decision, but she has no chance telling what it is, because Charlie has disappeared.  We are ready for Chapter Ten.

Andy, I'd like to reply belatedlyto an earlier post of yours talking about the inequalities and injustice  in the world.  I agree with you.  We cannot always help directly.  But I feel strongly that we should return kindnesses shown to us, not necessarily to those who extended them, but in order to do good so that it BE in he world.

Jude,, special thanks for quoting from Matthew's gospel. The images Cleave evokes in context are deeply moving.   A tattered bible, pages missing, the story unfinished, are all that is left after the missionaries went home.  But their efforts must have been valiant. In he hour of her need,  Nkiruka sang out hymns that they'd been taught as children.  The writing is beautiful.

Good night.

[bellamarie]

Jude~ Yes, it is interesting how Cleave has used scripture, but as I see it, God did not forsake Jesus, for he was one in the same, and Nikuria was such a faithfilled girl amazingly so I might add, that even in those last minutes of rape and torture she clung to her belief that her God was with her and would receive her in his loving arms.  For me, that was powerful and brought tears to my eyes.  I could only imagine having that much faith and love of God.  Nikuria's faith described in this book probably so far is the most emotional attachment I have felt.  If I had one character that has truly touched me, it would be Nikuria for her strong faith.  Its interesting how Cleave gave Nikuria so much faith and yet Little Bee seems to have none.

Shelia~

It seems to me that it was foolish, for Sara, LB and Charlie to be on the beach in Nigeria.  It was a similar foolishness to the time Andrew and Sarah did the same thing.

Hmmm...I haven't gotten that far so I had no idea Sara, LB and Charlie  end up on the beach in Nigeria.  I had to read that a few times before realizing what it meant.

On the topic of men loving, possessing and protecting, I think it is human nature for anyone who loves someone to want to protect them (male or female), but possessing I don't see as healthy, and I don't see Lawrence possessing Sarah.  I see Lawrence seeing Little Bee as a threat not only to Sarah and Charlie but also to his relationship with Sarah.  He already sees Sarah making risky decisions just by taking her into her home.  Lawrence is obviously no saint, but IMO, all his points for wanting Little Bee to leave are valid. 

I'm off to read this week's chapters.

Ciao for now~

[Babi]

 Oh, yes, TRAUDE. I wholly agree there. Lawrence's protectiveness
was not purely for Sarah; he was concerned for himself, too. My
comment was simply that I could not see his actions as a betrayalof Sarah. She was, I believe, able to look after herself well
enough, but that doesn't usually stop people who love you from
sticking their oars in, too.  My grown children are perfectly
well able to look after themselves, but they don't always do so
to my satisfaction. 

 

[nolvikarn]

Hi!
I will not try to defend Sarah, Andrew and Lawrence. They are all disappointed with their lives, careers and the way they are as persons.
 I think they (in a way) are models for the western type of educated (quite normal, competitive) people.
Contrary from the Africans living in small villages, with their background and living standard, where  every day is a struggle for life. A kind of life that we hardly can understand or visualize.
And that's the plot; LB is the (reminding) person who is meant to point out the reality of the third worlds fight.
Can we ever understand it fully? And what can we do as private persons? As Cain says: "Am I my brothers keeper?”
I'm not a religious man, but i can't help finding a religious undertone in this novel.
LB's love/gratefulness for Sarah and Charlie is so big that she is willing to risk her own security, in fact her life, for helping them.
As  one of you said: "love thy neighbor" and LB showed that she's ready to sacrifice herself for them.
I think that LB has given up or accepted her fate.

[ALF43]

Sheila-  Your sensitivities to each of the characters gladdens my heart.    Isn’t it wonderful when we find ourselves vicariously drawn into other’s lives to the point of experiencing genuine fondness for them?
As far as Lawrence emoting, he certainly displayed a strong response when they argued after her adultery was revealed.  He was mad as a wet hen but other than that, No, I think he lived in a depressed, saddened state most of the time.
 Actually now that I think about it, I am feeling some genuine concern and distress for Sarah.  It is difficult to be in a marriage where it is all one sided, emotionally.  One hears the echoes of silence and "feel" the absence of emotions and sensitivities.  It is a barrier and a hindrance if you are the partner struggling to exist in a marriage like theirs.  It can only lead to an unhappy ending- of that I can attest.

Ella- In regard to man’s instinctive right to be protective I was going to argue that case and believe it or not while writing my rebuttal, I convinced myself that you are absolutely correct.  When I saw the word abuser, it derailed me.   I wasn’t even thinking of the multiple verbal attacks that are now classified as “abuse.” 
Traude summed that up with “The tone makes the music.””  Oh yes!

Babi- we have met!!   I think it was in DC when we first met- maybe the Isle of Palms.  I can’t remember when it was.  Isn’t it such fun though when you spend time with someone and you can’t wait until your next discussion?  Oh, how I miss that with friends.   

Traude- I loved that when Lbee asked Lawrence the names of his children.  It was a subtle reminder that he didn’t belong in Sarah’s life and it could be construed as a threat, as well.  Subtle, yes, but it was there.

JudeS- I agree that the biblical verses are skillfully placed throughout this entire novel and I felt myself reflecting on how incredibly it is that the Bible continues to guide us, even through death and destruction.  Good for you to pick up on those applicable verses.  Do you think our author is a spiritual man?

Keep your fingers crossed, my computer is acting very strange Traude.  When I first boot it up, it shuts itself off.  It took me three reboots today.  If anything happens I will let you know. X    X fingers crossed.

[ALF43]

Olle-  Good morning to you.  I'm sorry we were posting at the same time and I missed your post.  I echo your thoughts here. 

I'm not a religious man, but i can't help finding a religious undertone in this novel

.

That is a very astute thought that the plot is to remind us through LittleBee what the third world countries endure daily.  In the western world, as you said, one has a tendency to get caught up in the "material", object oriented, tangible things in life.  We live in such a high tech competitive environment we chase our tails all of the time, round and round we go and yet we always come back to meet  "ourselves." 

You ask:

Can we ever understand it fully? And what can we do as private persons? As Cain says: "Am I my brothers keeper?”

IMO we must try and yes, I am my brother's keeper, if he will allow it.

[straudetwo]

Good Sunday morning!

Andy, not to worry.   Good luck with the computer ! I'll be here,   have no plans to go anywhere. On Tuesday, the local book group will come here. We have shivered through extremely cold nights (11° last night), and worse is to come.

I am so very grateful to all of you for being here and sharing this extraordinary book. I just finished it for the second time. My heart is too full for words now. Of course I will be back online later in the day. Many thanks, Andy, Babi, Olle.

[ALF43]

Traude- Which book is your group reading this month?  I was pleased to see you in the Classic book selection for February.  I'll be dragging my feet, I'm sure, but I will give it a shot.

[straudetwo]

Andy, we are reading Year of Wonders by Geraldine Brooks, a historical novel about the 1666 outbreak of the plague in Eyam, a small village in Derbyshire, which quarantined itself to avoid further spreading.

We read Geraldine Brooks' last novel here, People of the Book.
Year of Wonders was her first historical novel.  She started out as a journalist and foreign correspondent for the Wall Street Journal.

Oh yes, the classics project is exciting and I'm anxious to see what be the final selection will be.
In our schools in my time there were no electives, all were required subjects, including Latin. I loved it. Here we'll be reading English translations of the text. It will be fun, I'm sure.

[bellamarie]

I just finished the book and find myself feeling exactly the way Cleave says a reader said to him after she finishes his books. 

Cleave said, "I was talking with a reader once who said that my novels tended to leave her with "a stone in [her] shoe," and I suppose that might be the effect I'm aiming for.  Not that I want the stone to be uncomfortable for you, mind.  Just that I want the character to stay with you, and I don't think that happens by tying off the ending neatly.

Lots to talk about in the last chapters, just gonna go process it for awhile first.

Ciao now~