Author Topic: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online  (Read 73162 times)

rosemarykaye

  • Posts: 3055
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #320 on: January 23, 2011, 05:42:58 PM »




The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

January Book Club Online

 "Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave

Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.

In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion.


Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960.  Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.

*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world.  Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high.  There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?

*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens  for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called,  to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing  numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense.
 
 

Reading Schedule

January 2,   Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9,   Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16,  Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31,  Conclusions
 


Discussion LeadersTraude and Andy



Hi All,

I've just been trying to catch up after a night in Edinburgh (again).  I thought you might be interested in a book that I picked up at the library - Voice of America by EC Osundu.  He is a Nigerian writer and a teacher at Providence College in Rhode Island.  The book is his first collection of short stories - they are all about Nigerians, some in the USA and some in Nigeria; they tell you a lot about Nigerian society and beliefs, and perhaps fill in some of the background for Little Bee.

Rosemary

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #321 on: January 23, 2011, 10:28:21 PM »
Rosemary, I can imagine your house hunt very well. Years ago I was in the same boat when my husband's company transferred him to Massachusetts.
He and and three colleagues left right away,  the company rented a house for them near the company's quarters and hired a real estate agent to assist in finding housing here.  

The wives were given two paid visits up to meet with the real estate agent individually. Nothing was suitable. During a third visit we found a house. The company sent packers and moved us.
I was heartbroken.  Good luck to you.

Bellamarie, Cleave's answer to a reader who asked why he wrote th book, or what effect he was seeking,  reminds me of the saying Comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable, wich is attributed to Finley Peter Dunne, 1867-1936, an American writer and humorist based in Chicago.

It's not so hard to guess why he wrote the book, now it's up to us to say what it meant to us.

Andy, I just saw the decision in the classics book club. Yippee !


ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #322 on: January 23, 2011, 11:04:00 PM »
Here's hoping I will be here in the morning if this thing boots up.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #323 on: January 24, 2011, 12:38:52 AM »
Oh Andy, please.....you can't possibly leave us now.  I will pray your computer will be up and running smoothly in the morning.  I hope you have not gotten a virus, which is what it sounds like.  I got one a few months back and not to depress you, but it cost me $250.00 to get it fixed and it took me a week without it.  Luckily I had an old desktop that runs as slow as molasses in January..he he he he  does anyone use that any more, anyway...it worked til I got my laptop back.

More in the morning. 

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #324 on: January 24, 2011, 08:46:28 AM »
Good morning!

Andy, here's hoping your computer responded!

We are in the deep freeze here, -1° F. Brrr  Must make more coffee....
 



bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #325 on: January 24, 2011, 09:18:24 AM »
Traude, not sure where you are in the country, but I am in Ohio and last night we went down to -4.  I am beginning to think spring! 

So I have the book on my nook and realized in the very back there is an interview that Cleave has with some book club members and he also gives us the insight as to his reason for writing the book etc.  Does everyone have that in their book?  I would imagine so.  It's very interesting and would like to discuss it after we take on the last chapters of the book this week.  Okay, more coffee sounds good to me too so be back later......

Andy~I'm praying we see you today.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #326 on: January 24, 2011, 09:42:20 AM »
 ALF, it was DC, and that was a long time ago. We barely knew
each other then, and didn't have the time to discover how much
we had in common. Other, of course, than the love of books.

  That 'if he will allow it' is an important reservation to the
idea of being one's brother's 'keeper'. My answer to that question
has always been, "No, I'm not my brother's keeper. But I am my
brother's brother"(or sister).
 We tend to forget that those words were Cain's, not God's. And you
will notice God did not dignify them with an answer.

  Such a disappointing ending.  That long description of LB slowly waking up on the beach.  Did anyone else find that tedious?
   I was most disappointed at the entire ending.   I found it unbelievable.  Did the Nigerian government so fear one teen-age girl that they keep a guard on her night and day and send  a half-dozen soldiers to hunt her down?  Would a soldier start firing a rifle at a 4-yr. old running down the beach?!  I don’t think so.  The whole thing felt so contrived. 
  There had been hints that there might be a place for Little Bee in Abuja.  That she could find work, a niche, a way to make a life there.  I don’t understand Cleave’s decision to go the other way.   I wasn’t expecting a ‘happy ending’, but I did expect a chance to make a new life.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #327 on: January 24, 2011, 12:23:15 PM »
Well here I am, for the time being anyway.  I don't think it's a virus Bella, I think the fan has been working too  hard and--- well who knows.  I just defraged again, did a disc cleanup, etc and the proof will be when I try to reboot.  I'm going to keep this puppy running until I can get back in here.  I just returned from aerobics and need to eat before I continue my trek with LBee. 

Babi- Yes, I thought that it was DC.  Maybe we shall both be fortunate to meet up again at one of our "gatherings."  I'd love to have one in Texas.

I'll be back soon.  (I hope)
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #328 on: January 24, 2011, 12:31:29 PM »
Bellamarie,

At the end of the book, the paperback has

Notes
Acknowledgements
About the Autho
A tw0-paragraph synopsis on
11 Discussion Quesions
Enhancing Your Book Club
and
Author Q and A  - 10 questions for the author and is answers to same.

Is that what you were referring to? If so, which Qs would oo like to discuss ?

Babi,  o I understand.  Somewhat of a shock, for sure.
It may seem rushed to some, and perhaps it was.
However,  the stark reality was always in plain view. The outcome could never have been different.

I had an emergency  in the house this morning and am expecting a repair man soon.  I'll be back
as soon as I can for more on the ending.




bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #329 on: January 24, 2011, 01:29:14 PM »
Babi~  You have expressed all my exact thoughts to the ending.  It is so unbelievable, first off...Lawrence found out what flight Little Bee would be on and so Sarah brings her four year old son along to escort Little Bee back to a hostile nation.  REALLY?  Lawrence was a part of harboring an illegal refugee, yet no charges were brought against him or Sarah, and they would give him access to that information.  Hmm....REALLY??  Then they allow the three of them to remain in a hotel for how long?  Sarah bribing the guard so they could come and go as they please...REALLY?  Throughout the book I saw Sarah as an impulsive person who relied on others to lead her in life and care for her son, but to return to the very beach where such horrible acts occurred with her son was too much for me to accept.  The entire beach scene in the end for me was as you said Babi, contrite, but more so for me it was unbelievable.  Seems our author wanted to wrap it up and didn't have a real believable ending so he leaves it hanging.

Cleave said in his interview he would like it if the reader did not like Sarah.  Well, its not about liking or disliking her...its about did he make his story believable to the reader.  For me the answer is NO!  I asked early on where did we see this story going?   Well, Cleave left the ending to be determined by the reader, so my conclusion is, Little Bee was taken into custody, placed in a detention center, Sarah and Charlie returned home, she wrote her book and continued her affair with Lawrence.  Since I did not see any true maturity or growth in her character I could actually see her going back and asking for her job back.  She did make a haste decision and had second thoughts even about that.

Cleave said, he was inspired to write the book "from a story of Manuel Bravo, a refugee from Angola.  In 2001 an Angolan man named Manuel Bravo fled to England and claimed asylum on the grounds that he and his family would be persecuted and killed if they were returned to Angola.  He lived in a state of uncertainty for four years pending a decision on his application.  Then, without warning, in September 2005 Manuel Bravo and his 13-year-old son were seized in a dawn raid and interned at an Immigration Removal Centre in southern England.  They were told that they would be forcibly deported to Angola the next morning.  That night, Manuel Bravo took his own life by hanging himself in a stairwell.  His son was awoken in his cell and told the news.  What had happened was that Manuel Bravo, aware of a rule under which unaccompanied minors cannot be deported from the UK, had taken his own life in order to save the life of his son."

So, my question is this, Is it a law in the UK that when accompanied by an English woman/reporter, (although she had NO credentials as a reporter since she no longer worked at the magazine,) a Nigerian refugee who fled the country, can not be taken and placed in an Immigration Centre immediately once they land on Nigerian soil considering she was a flight risk and the woman who harbored her was with her?  Or is that part of the fictitious story?  Because as soon as Sarah showed up on the plane with Charlie I was done with this story.  No mother in her right mind would bring her child to a country of such hostility.  Her excuse for going with Andrew was she wasn't aware of the oil war, well she knew of it now, and yet she brings Charlie along.  Unbelievable! 

I guess Cleave felt we needed for Charlie to finally take off the Batman costume so we have Little Bee finally telling him her real name.  Wow if that's all it took then why didn't she tell him days ago?  Again, unbelievable!  So, he runs off into the sun playing with the Nigerian children, globalization is the theme and all is well with the world.  Unbelievable, but what I can believe is each and everyone one of us can take from this book the fact that there is danger in these countries, it would do us good to heed the news, don't put yourself or your loved ones in the danger by visiting hostile nations, and do your part whatever it is to help, even if its in praying for globalization.  I believe oil will continue to dominate the world and the wars will continue to be fought for the power and riches oil brings to nations.  Governments will continue to cover up the real horror of the treatment of those who gain the knowledge of such horrific acts such as what took place in Little Bee's town and in the detention centres.  So I welcome the authors and reporters who are willing to bring these issues to the forefront with hope that one day one person, or one book will make a difference in some way.

Okay...I hear my friend Rick saying, "It's just a story Marie, it's just a story." lol
I am anxious to hear everyone else's views. 

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #330 on: January 24, 2011, 03:03:37 PM »
The ending of this book is very sad. In Africa (and elsewhere) there are many , many victims of injustice. The author tried very hard not to be too didactic but he was. However it is a story that needed to be told and Cleave really worked hard at trying to hold our interest throughout.
If anyone is interested in the issue of African  children trying to get out of Africa I would like to suggest a fascinating movie called "Live and Become". It is a joint French\Israeli  film about a nine year old Ethiopian boy who is living in a refugee camp in Ethiopia where there is a chance of being allowed into israel as a "Falasha Jew" (one of the lost tribes of Israel).  The scenes in the refugee camp are a sight you will never forget..  The boy poses as a Jew and grows up in Israel but the problems he faces as he becomes an adult tore my heart to pieces. I wept and wept.  When he returns to the camp as an adult the story is even harsher.
Thousands of Africans (not Jews) WALK from Africa through  Sinai to slip into Israel.  The numbers are staggering. The ones from Sudan voted for an independent Southern Sucdan but when asked if they would return they said they like it in Israel and want their children to become citizens there.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #331 on: January 24, 2011, 04:56:13 PM »
Jude~ Indeed the ending is sad, but it was predictable.  How else did anyone see this ending differently?  I think Little Bee told us how it would all end many times throughout the book.  I found this interesting in the q & a in the back of the book.
Q:  Throughout the book, Little Bee was alert to her surroundings and imagined how she would kill herself, should the men come.  At the end of the book, when the men finally came for Little Bee on the beach, why didn't she try to kill herself?

A:  Cleave.."I think by the end of the novel she'd become much stronger.  She'd gone through that post traumatic stage characterized by persistent thoughts of suicide, and she'd come out at the other end as a tougher cookie.  I was interested to explore this idea that suicidal thoughts might be part of a process in which she took back control of her destiny.  In choosing not to succumb to the suicidal impulse, she became the master of her situation again.  In her own words, she had "killed herself back to life."

I thought when reading the ending on the beach Little Bee would in fact walk off into the water showing she chose her own destiny.  But then how could she do that and still be able to have the final scene with Charlie taking off his costume?  Once that scene became a part of the story there is no way she could commit suicide with Charlie watching.  Her revealing her true name was IMO Little Bee finally accepting who she was, no more Queen Elizabeth voices imagining it would make her fit into a world she knew she would never belong to.  Or who knows...maybe Cleave just needed to get Charlie out of that Batman costume to show he would be okay being Charlie.  Food for thought. 

Thank you Jude for suggesting the movie.  I don't think I am up to a tearful movie at this time, just watching the nightly news every day is dismal with all the talk of illegal immigrants, the dangers in Mexico etc., etc.  The Diary of Ann Frank was probably my first introduction to the cruelty of concentration camps and then the Holocaust was my reality that shook me to the core.  I can not bring myself to watch anymore movies dealing with such atrocities.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #332 on: January 24, 2011, 06:43:50 PM »
hi there

just a short post to say have been following the comments and finding all the input so interesting

am being knocked off the computer when have a bit composed so finding it very frustrating

have so many tabbed pages in my book that caught my interest; felt like we were skipping double dutch rope and couldn't quite jump in with my comments.....was like this as a student as well way back when so don't think this is a reflection on the going ons...just know I am here and appreciate being a part even though a silent part of this group

thank you
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #333 on: January 24, 2011, 09:21:18 PM »
The emergency is over and I'm back.
Andy, before I get into my answers, I wanted to say how glad I was to see you on line -- later in the day.  I did not see the your post when when I posted this morning in haste.  Good luck in finding the cause of the problem.

Your posts are greatly appreciated.  I will respond as best to the last I've read.  
With respect to the disappointment, disbelief or incredulity about the ending, let me say that only those who have lived under a dictatorial system can really understand  situations like this.  Whether we take notice or not, killing and strife go on eg. in  the former Belgian Congo and in Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe - to name  just two African co.untries.
Both independent autonomous nations and operate by their own laws.

Babi,
Little Bee was deported to her native country, Nigeria, by the British because she had entered the country illegally = without papers. She was in default of the rules. She was a drain on the economy. She did not belong;  so said the officer at Heathrow.

Except  for the presence of Sarah and little Charlie, the Nigerian authorities could and would   have seized LBimmediately on arrival in Ajubam, the capital.  Sarah knew that. They retreatred to a hotel. Of course they were watched ! Under  comparable circumstances, wouldn't the FBI or CIA, or both, have kept close tabs too? This one had the clear markings of a cause célèbre. So the three of them were hunted.

Sarah, passionately motivated,  did not realize how tenuous her plan was when she suggested gathering stories similar to LB's. The idea as to present them with Andrew's detailed documentation in an effort to make a case for LB. But to what court ?  She had not been indicted.

The soldiers on the beach fired into the sand, but if LB had not run toward Charlie, crying
I'm the one you want ..., they might have aimed at Charlie.
Under their law, they might even have been justified.  

Bellamarie, yes, we knoww,  Lawrence found out where LB was held before deportation and what flight she'd be on. He was not a totally bad guy, after all. But he's no longer in the picture. Nor do we learn whether he was going to be in Sarah's life when everything was over.

Well, Sarah didn't want to be separated from Charlie again and took him along to Ajuba. Foolish?
Perhaps. Unbelievable.? Not necessarily, 
Whatever we think and feel, we didn't write the story, Cleave did. We can accept it or denounce it, but  IMO it's  a call to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.=

To Jude,  thank you.



bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #334 on: January 24, 2011, 10:33:39 PM »
Traude~ Cleave said, "I wanted to leave the story open-ended."  In doing so he left the ending hanging for the reader to conclude, each one in what ever way they individually would end it.  I chose to keep Lawrence in Sarah's life, since she seemed to not be able to make life choices by herself.  And yes, Sarah said to Little Bee on the plane about Lawrence, "He's not entirely bad, at the end of the day."  So that is why I see her returning to him in my ending.

My point in Lawrence finding out what flight Little Bee was on was that I could not imagine that really happening,  since the authorities knew he was cupable for helping in harboring her.  In all reality, he would have been fired and charged along with Sarah.  So if Cleave would have kept it believable, Sarah would never have gotten on the plane to accompany Little Bee to Nigeria, she would have been charged and not able to leave the country. If Sarah did not want to  leave Charlie, then she was indeed putting him in harm's way, so much so he is being shot at on the beach.  Sarah never really thought through too much in the story, she did what she wanted, when she wanted, how and where and did not give much thought for the others around her.  She saved Little Bee's life in cutting off her finger, but ultimately in the end, taking her to the beach was putting Little Bee's chances of being saved at risk, since it looked as though they were trying to flee once again.

Each person individually can conclude what was believeable or not for them.  There are too many discrepancies, IMO, in those last pages for me to find any of it believable.  It does not mean I did not like the book, I personally, was just disappointed.

Deb~ Please join in, its always so nice to hear others views.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #335 on: January 24, 2011, 11:43:41 PM »
It is a tenuous situation while my computer is undergoing the exorcism but I am here for the time being.  ::)

Bella and all:  I agree that the ending was foretold by the story itself.  LittleBee was and would have remained an illegal, without any papers. There was no way for her to become a part of Sarah's life there in the UK.  She would be unable to disappear into the human race  there as simply as a bee vanishes into the hive.
  (I love that statement- it summed everything up for me)

 Ergo, Cleave had to return hersomehow back to her native country of Nigeria where she fundamentally and legally belonged.
 I agree with you Marie, I think that she had passed the stage of “how will I kill myself”.  (She shows the most growth of character , IMO, than all of the other characters.)
  
 I, too,  thought about LBee walking off forever into the water as you did Bella.  In fact when I read that, I thought Oh no, not after all she’s had to endure.  I don't think that she went into that water with any thoughts of suicide I believe that she was solely immersing herself into the memory of her sister.  

Quote
My point in Lawrence finding out what flight Little Bee was on was that I could not imagine that really happening,  since the authorities knew he was culpable for helping in harboring her.
I don’t believe that Lawrence would have told the authorities of his being complicit in knowing of  lBee's illegal status.  Why would he have? He would have been charged or worse- lose his job. He could still get that information without revealing any involvement, couldn’t he?  Did I miss something there?  I just assumed that he checked her name on the list of transports out of the country and then informed Sarah of the time and date of her flight. I always acclaim to be such a realist but I found myself looking for Sarah when lbee and the "guard" were conversing on the plane.  I wanted someone in her corner and I guess so did Cleave. :)
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #336 on: January 25, 2011, 12:00:31 AM »
Deb- please don't let these postings knock you off kilter here.  Little by little, just come in, like you did, and tell us what problem you are having with your "reply."  We can help you.  The only way to learn is to do it and then let us know what you need assistance with. We've all been there and would love to help.

Yes, the story was left open ended Traude and Bella.  I love to fill in the blanks with the book itself and I did.  UDO was her name and it means peace!
Remember how shocked she was when she saw the multi-racial family?  She said that she would not be able to tell that story to the girls back home- they wouldn't believe her.  They would scoff at her if she attempted to explain how they held hands and smiled with pride.  That just tore me up.  My dad used to say that someday our world would be gray and prejudice would abate.  I only wish that I believed as he did.  Anyway, in the final chapter Charlie with his very white skin plays on the beach with the surprised black children.
This is my favorite and I cried when I read it: "I cried with joy when the children all began to play together in the sparkling foam of the wave that broke between worlds at the point."

UDO- Peace be unto you.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #337 on: January 25, 2011, 12:36:47 AM »
Andy~ I am so glad to see you are able to post.  I do hope your computer will be okay.

Quote
I don't believe that Lawrence would have told the authorities of his being complicit in knowing of  lBee's illegal status.  Why would he have? He would have been charged or worse- lose his job. He could still get that information without revealing any involvement, couldn’t he?  Did I miss something there?

Lawrence did not offer the information of his involvement, the authorties were aware of it.  After Little Bee was taken into custody in the UK, Sarah, Charlie and Lawrence go to see her. pg 190-191 in our Nook, "Outside the cell, Lawrence was arguing with a police officer.  "This is a bit excessive, isn't it?  They shouldn't deport her.  She has a home to go to.  She has a sponsor."   "They're not my rules. sir.  The immigration people are a law unto themselves."  "But surely you can give us a bit of time to make a case.  I work for the Home Office, I can get an appeal together."  "If you don't mind my saying so, sir, if I worked for the Home Office and I knew all along this lady was illegal, I'd keep my mouth shut."  And this, exactly, is what Lawrence did.  I did not hear his voice after that.

The authorities were well aware of Lawrence and Sarah's part in harboring Little Bee and yet neither was charged and Lawrence was able to keep his job with Home Office, when in all reality IMO, he would never have been allowed near Home Office computers to find out the information about Little Bee.  How could the woman who harbored an illegal refugee be allowed to go free, and be allowed to accompany her out of the country, be placed in a hotel with her for days, and bribe a guard to allow them to come and go as they pleased in a vehicle with NO legal license?  For me that is just too far a stretch to be believed.  

I do like your Dad's way of thinking.

And now I hear my friend Rick once again saying, "It's just a book."  lolol


Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #338 on: January 25, 2011, 02:29:02 AM »
I am not surprised at the ending of the book.  LB would always be illegal in the UK.  She wanted to return to her homeland.  She was homesick.  Her memories were in Nigeria.  She missed the weather, the ocean, and the feeling of belonging.

I can understand Sarah's desire to gather 100 stories of other Nigerians.  What I had trouble understanding was LB, Sarah, and Charlie, leaving the safety of their hotel, to go to the beach!  That was what originally happened with Sarah and Andrew when they left safety, and went to the beach.  It seems to me that Sarah would have learned.

I feel so sad, that "civilized" countries make it so difficult for people from the countries of war, dictators and poverty, to immigrate.  I will never accept that when someone comes to America, from Cuba for example, they can stay if they gain access to land, but if they are caught iin the ocean, they are deported back to Cuba.  Those, too, from Haiti.

There is a lot of news about the conditions in 3rd world countries.  I have heard it.  However, I have not really comprehended how devestating the lives of their people are.  Reading this book, has brought a new and deeper awareness to me, of how fortunate I am to be a US citizen, and how dangerous the lives of those in 3rd world countries are.

Sheila

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #339 on: January 25, 2011, 08:46:00 AM »
 I think a Texas location was suggested this past year, ALF, but the East Coast
prevailed again. A Texas meet would at least offer me the possibility of
attending. With me, nothing is certain.

 Ah, yes, MARIE. Taking Charlie into that environment was another item on the
list of "Unbelievable!".  Sarah is showing the same fallacy that destroyed
Andrew. She assumes that Little Bee will be safe under her protection. She
cannot grasp that in this country she has little power and no authority.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #340 on: January 25, 2011, 09:44:32 AM »
Aye, aye Babi, let's push the powers that be to have one in Texas. (Now that my ex doesn't live there (or any where for that matter) I feel comfortable breathing the air in Tx.

I like to argue the counter point usually but I have to agree with you ladies:  What the hell were they thinking?
Did they believe that the soldiers would disappear & cease their patrol of the beaches when they left Nigeria. Knowing the risks and perils how could they expose young Charlie to these dangers??????? :(
I agree Sheila.  It was bad enough to be in Nigeria why would they leave the safety of their hotel?  It's like thumbing your nose at the authorities.

Gotta go-- 15 minutes top on the machine.

UDO

Yes!  Thanks Marie, I do remember that now that you point it out but knowing many "bureaucrats" in offices I also must add that it would have been extremely easy for Lawrence to access that information.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #341 on: January 25, 2011, 10:34:52 AM »
It is snowing, fast and furious, and our book group meeting was postponed. I'm glad. It gives me more time to be here than I would otherwise,  and that is both welcome and important in this las week of our discussion of LB.

Andy, I was so glad to see your posts this morning, and happy you could prod your recalcitrant computer forward - until help arrives.

In an effort to cover all angles i'll respond to the posts separately.  And I will be back.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #342 on: January 25, 2011, 11:15:09 AM »
Babi~ "She cannot grasp that in this country she has little power and no authority."

Exactly!  And, she had little power and no authority in the UK either.  It seems our author fancied snubbing his nose at authorities in this story, not only when Andrew and Sarah would not respect the guard's orders on the beach to keep them safe, but then she actually thinks she can go gallivanting around with a captured illegal in a hostile nation.  

I realize Cleave wanted to give Little Bee closure so he brings them back to the beach, but with a four year old child in tow, that was too much for me to accept, but then he needed this,

"I cried with joy when the children all began to play together in the sparkling foam of the wave that broke between worlds at the point."

I have to admit this was touching and gave Little Bee the closure she needed for her plight and hope for all nations to one day be as one.

Andy~ I see your point in the " bureaucrats", but its a stretch for me to accept, because Lawrence had broken the law and should have not had anymore access to that information.  But then I suppose we could conjecture someone else supplied him with it, since there had to be a way of getting Sarah on the plane, which I can't believe because SHE had broken the law, harbored an illegal who was being deported.  How on earth could she be allowed the access once again to Little Bee.  When I read Sarah on the plane my first thoughts were, "Egads its going to be like these crazy movies that make no sense in the end, and want us to accept it without questioning."  But then as I pointed out, I have a tendency to expect believability in my books and movies that are trying to make a political statement, or enlighten me in areas of this magnitude.

I sense Cleave was in a quandary on how he was going to wrap this all up, reveal Little Bee's real name to Charlie, get Charlie to take off the costume, and also bring the closure and hope in the end.  He just didn't do it in a sense for me that was believable by taking a four year old to a hostile nation and have them return to the beach where such horrific acts occurred.  As Andy asks, "Did they believe that the soldiers would disappear & cease their patrol of the beaches when they left Nigeria."  

Shelia~ I share your sentiments on immigration.

Ciao for now~

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #343 on: January 25, 2011, 08:34:08 PM »
"Little Bee, has changed me Lawrence, I can't look at her without
thinking how shallow my life is."


I listen to the way the author has little Bee talking with wonderful descriptive poetical ways of describing something we might just call by a single name,....she talked like the aboriginals of North America who would describe the winds the seasons, they put their souls into their thoughts ....ideas took longer to express but then they didn't really view time as we do I guess

*they thought deeper, they describes richer, they looked at their world with more dimension....
I have heard people in countries as Africa who are poor in 'stuff' (that we find necessary) are happier, more content

Little Bee initially had a wonderful early set of years; do we know how her parents viewed their lives?  were they aware of what was going on around them how their lives were going to change? 'the influences of progress!!

posting this before I lose this post

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #344 on: January 25, 2011, 09:47:35 PM »
Thank you, Andy, Babi, Bellamarie, Sheila.

My own view is closest to Sheila's , as I've said before.

Bellamarie, when there's an open ending, we are free of course to imagine one that satisfies us.  As for me, I had no wish to do so because in my mind  LB's story had ended, and  also because I see that story less as a "regular" nove- a  bestseller iat that -  and more like a parable, providing a lesson with an implied moral,   in which the characters - in short - are secondary to the message being conveyed.
The message in this book is loud and clear and needed to be told.

This is my  opinion  and I make[/b] no attempt whatever to  "convert" anybody else. Whatever a reader imagines as the future of Sarah and Charlie is fine with me. Just don't try to convince me, is all I ask in return.

※ I agree that the last three chapters of the book seem rushed and are rather condensed (and I never could stand those Readers' Digest Books).  But there we are.

※ Regarding "unbelievable". The point is well taken.  Given my fascination and preoccupation with words I simply must take this opportunity to mention a multi-syllabic noun :   verosimilitude = likelihood. I like the very sound of it. Is the action veering toward the improbable ? Definitely.

i. Yes, it was neither logical nor prudent for Sarah to take Charlie to Nigeria on this daring mission.

ii. The entire venture was "an impossible dream" doomed from the start.

iii Feeling accountable,  Sarah  thought she could change LB's  fate by gathering proof of the government's coverup of similar atrocities, bolstered by Andrew's records.

iv. Sarah bribed he guards soo that the three of them could leave the hotel to gather information and returned at the end of the day. We are not told ehat little Charlie did during those expeditions and interviews.

v. LB did not show much enthusiasm ifor the endeavor, and ultimately it was she who wanted to go back to the sea.  Not her region, one must assume, because she couldn't undersand the language of the women around her. This time,Sarah lgab a lot more money to the guards because, ostensibly, they'd be gone longer.

vi. Not for one minute did I think LB would just wade into the sea and disappear. It would not have been right with the children splashing happily in the surf.

vii. LB told her Charlie her real name, Udo, Peace,  and he, true to his earlier Batman promise,  took off his costume.  He must have felt so much more comfortable in the heat and running on the sand.  Release, for both LB and Charlie.

Perhaps Cleave will write a sequel that tells us what happened when Sarah and Charlie returned to England, but I can't quite imagine that.  It seems to me that we bring to our reading certain preconceived notions, and they determine our outlook and perspective.  Whatever they are, we are blessed for being able to give voice to them in an amicable environment. What I try to do in life is be as objective as I can, which is not always easy.

Back in the morning, T.


straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #345 on: January 25, 2011, 10:16:30 PM »
Hello, Deb !  Good to see you.  I had just finished eliminating the typ;os from my post and hope I caught them all.  Oh my.

A big wave to you, Deb, and to a very dear friend of mine who I know is in the wings.
Fondly, T


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #346 on: January 25, 2011, 10:35:35 PM »
Traude~ I like your word, verosimilitude = likelihood.  :)

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #347 on: January 26, 2011, 12:02:54 AM »
Deb-
Quote
I listen to the way the author has little Bee talking with wonderful descriptive poetical ways of describing something we might just call by a single name,....she talked like the aboriginals of North America who would describe the winds the seasons, they put their souls into their thoughts

I love what you wrote here.   This is the beauty of this novel, IMO- Cleave's ease with the poetic and rhythmic prose.  I just love it.

Traude- Yes!  Condensed ending is just what it is.  As far as my own ending to this story- I've never been one to write an ending.  I trust the author 's finale has been thoughtfully written.  If he ends with everyone going into the drink, then so be it!   :D  Who am I to rewrite the script?
I can honestly say I never enter into the world of a novel with any preconceived notions.  I think that is why I enjoy discussing the intricacies of a book with others.  I like that we can confer with one another as we examine the words.
Good night and oh yes-UDO to all.  (I love that, can you tell?)

 I can not for the life of me conceive of a sequel to this story.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #348 on: January 26, 2011, 01:50:26 AM »
Will someone please give me step, by step information about how to post a quote, here?  I have been trying to figure it out for myself, with no success.

Thanks, Sheila

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #349 on: January 26, 2011, 08:24:23 AM »
 Traude, I have to agree that this book was more concerned with "providing a lesson".
The message was what was important.  I am more covinced of that as I realize that I'm
really not at all interested in what subsequently happened with the various characters.
  It does occur to me that someone like Yvette, who proposed to simply vanish into a
neighborhood where everyone looked the same, had a reasonble chance of success. Look
at how readily so many illegal immigrants manage to mingle and merge here in Texas.
 
  I also appreciate DEB's point about the 'story-telling' beauty of Little Bee's language.
I think all cultures that have little access to the Western forms of entertainment perfect
the art of story-telling.  What is remarkable is how beautifully Cleave managed to capture
that language for us.

 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #350 on: January 26, 2011, 08:35:45 AM »
Shelia~I will do my best to help. 
1.  Highlight the text you want inside your quote.
2. Go up to the top of the tool bar click edit and choose copy. (now this is saved to your clipboard)
4. Before the text you paste, type this bracket [   then type in the word  quote  then type this bracket.  ] now paste your text you want to quote.(or just type the text you want inside the quote.)
5. At the end of the text you pasted or typed,  to end the quote, type  the bracket   [ then use the blackslash     then type  quote   then type the other bracket    ]
The backslash is the cue to end the quote.

I know they have the quote icon when you are in the preview or modify mode, but I find it sometimes will not allow me to highlight the text I want, for me it goes all over the place so I revert back to the old fashion way using the brackets as I type.

Andy~ I like your statement, "As far as my own ending to this story- I've never been one to write an ending.  I trust the author 's finale has been thoughtfully written."

Myself being a writer at heart, I find myself always writing or rewriting the ending or even other parts of a movie or book.  Its just fun for me.  Its also my nature to critique other writers, afterall we must hold them to a certain standard. lolol  It also makes good discussion material.  I don't go into a book or movie with preconceived notions either, I sometimes will not read any reviews or interviews beforehand so it will not alter my thoughts ahead of reading or seeing a story/movie.   I like going in open to what ever the story/movie has to offer to me individually.  I agree authors endings are carefully thought out, but many an author can fall short of being beleivable.

Traude~ This story being a parable to you is interesting, do you suppose Cleave using scripture had that in mind?

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #351 on: January 26, 2011, 09:17:20 AM »
Gosh, I haven't been here for awhile; actually my book is gone, back to its spot in the library.  However, I remember how stunned I was at the ending, stunned to read that Sarah had actually gone back to Nigeria and taken her little son, Charlie, with her.  How could she go to the place that ruined her life, her marriage, mutilated her hand, could have been the cause for Andrew's suicide?

Did she think that returning to the scene would heal the heart as some therapist might say?    And, then, an open end to the book, as TRAUDE talked about.

But it's a story, after all, and it does bring the immigration problem to the foreground for us to "mull" over.

Still and all, I loved the book, I questioned it, it stayed with me!

Thanks so much to ALF and TRAUDE for guiding us through it and all of you for your keen remarks.

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #352 on: January 26, 2011, 10:39:41 AM »
Correction
Because of my worsening vision I check my posts several times for typos, but some manage to slip through, unnoticed.  Like verisimilitude.

The correct spelling is verisimilitude (not verOsimilitude) = the appearance, the semblance of truth. I am sorry.

Back later.

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #353 on: January 26, 2011, 12:54:48 PM »
Sheila -BellaMarie has shown you one way to copy a quote.  You may also use the button just below the CHANGE COLOR COMMAND -next to the Font face command. (over on the right)
After you've copied the quote go up there and hit the yellow button under the change color. It looks like a yellow legal sheet .  Press that and your quote will be highlighted.  The only difference is you don't need to put the quote brackets etc. in your post.  By hitting the yellow button with what is highlighted it will do that for you. So there's no need for step #3 and #5.
I hope that I made myself clear and that it helps somewhat.

Traude- yes veri (as in truth) similitude as in similar.  ;)

Bless you heart Ella- it is always a pleasure to have you aboard on one of our discussions.
I have a question that keeps going round and round in my head but before I embarass myself and ask it, I am going to go and research this word globalization.  I shall return and perhaps all of you can help me to understand something.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #354 on: January 26, 2011, 01:20:57 PM »
 Did Little Bee board that ship alone out of fear for her life or was she deported?
At that time weren't many Nigerians resettled in the UK?  Why?  Who had the authority to "resettle" anyone? Maybe I just don't understand globalization as I thought I did.  Who had that right?  Hitler took the right to resettle the Jews.  WE in the USA took the right to resettle the Japanese (even if they were American born.)  I understand the necessity of integration with global economies etc but I can not grasp the tenet of relocation of children.
Can someone straighten my brain out on this point. ::)
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #355 on: January 26, 2011, 11:53:58 PM »
Andy,  yes veri- as in veritas !

I have been looking for the passage that describes LB's lonely trek toward the open sea and will continue to check.  The print in the paperback is small and the magnifying glass is heavy to hold.
LB's  flight began after Nkiruka had been killed and LB felt safe enough to climb out of the boat in which she had been hiding, not seeing much, but hearing ieverything.

Thinking only of getting away, she walked at night, in the shallow water of the coastline to avoid leaving her scent on the sand. During the day she hid in the jungle. She ate something that made her violently ill. She went on for an untold number of nights. On the final night she came to the ocean where two  ships lay at anchor, one Italian, the other British,  with a cargo of tea.  No one was about. She climbed in. An officer found her in the morning, looked at her, not unkindly, and locked her in a cabin,  for her safety.  He gave her Great Expectations to read. The ship arrived in England before she could finish the book. She was turned over to immigration.

About resettling Nigerians in England.  I am not sure there is such an effort.
 British law is clear, and the policy of the 10 (ten)  existing immigration detenion centers is spelled out in the link which Ella provided. Any person entering without valid papers is illegal,  has no right to stay in Britain,  must turn him/or herself in or be forcibly removed and sent back to his/her native land.. There were no exemptions and no exceptions.  
The law of the land decides man's fate.  And LB's future ended in Nigeria because the authorities knew what she knew and wanted her dead.

Hitler, an a simple man with a second-rate education and quite possibly insane, wanted more than to 'resettle' the Jews.  He set about eradicating them.  Only a contorted, criminal mind could contrive to shut away in concentration camps anybody who does not think exactly as ordered or conforms without question to anything he/she is told.  

It began right after he came to power in 1931. The first people he put behind bars and razor-wired fences were the Communists he had defeated (by hook and crook) in the last election, and, paradoxically, members of the clergy, who spoke out against his methods.  Not long after began the systematic persecution of the Jews, the transportation into the camps killings.
Jews had to report to town halls in to be "registered".  They had to wear a yellow star on t heir clothing. Then came Kristallnacht. The rest is history.

I too was an immigrant when we landed on these shores, so were my husband and our little girl.
We had a U.S. visa in our passports.  Immigration and customs were there and inspected our luggage on the dusty pier in the harbor of New York on a hot summer's day.  One piece was my father's footlocker from WW I,full of books.  The customs officer pointed to it and asked, "What's in there?"
"Books," I said.  "Books?" he exclaimed and laughed picking it up.  It was heavy and he dropped it. The fold-over-lock broke, the books tumbled out, some on his foot.  His face became red and he told another man to help put the books back abd secure the piece with metal bands. Then he turned without examining any other pieces.

My husband were resident aliens and issued a green card each. Every January we had to report to the Immigration and NaturaliZation Sservice, as it was called then, whose office was in the Old Post Office building in Washington.

An American family stationed in Germany were our sponsors.  The process took  5 (five) years. In time they were ordered back to Virginia. They too had to fill out all kinds of forms, as did we.
Once admitted to the country,  5 more years must pass before a resident alien can can apply for naturalization. After a formal application is filed, an examination with an immigration examiner is scheduled who questions the applicant about U.S. history, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the basic structure of the government.  We were interviewed separately, my husband by a female officer, I by a male.  Both of us passed and were congratulated.

A formal ceremony for a large group of new citizens took place a while later in court in Alexandria,  Virginia. A true milestone.  A relief to live like ordinary citizens, no longer required to report to Immigration every January.
Let me say, however,  that the transition and adjustment to a new life, a new beginning, to prove oneself personally and professionally all over again, is not easy for the first generation.
It was easier for my daughter and son, the second generation.

I am very grateful that Andy has been here with me in this discussion with her forthrightness and her unique style. She after all is a true native of this country and has more gravitas.  By comparison I am the outsider.  Thank you for bearing with me.

I am similarly grateful for Ella's presence here; it meant a lot to me.

More to say. Tomorrow.
Good night.


rosemarykaye

  • Posts: 3055
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #356 on: January 27, 2011, 03:14:34 AM »
Traude, thank you for that very interesting insight into immigration.  The book that I mentioned before, "Voice of America" also illustrates the difficulties of first generation immigrants, this time Nigerians, in the US (and I'm sure it would be the same here).  They struggle to fit in, to understand local ways, and at the same time they face a lot of hostility from some people.  There is a particularly sad story about a female college lecturer who is psychologically tortured by her students because they can't understand her accent.  African immigrants often have an entire extended family back home depending on their income.

When West Indians first came to the UK in large numbers (before I was born), there was outright racism and discrimination - for example, boarding houses would not take "blacks".  Although this is of course no longer allowed by law, I can't imagine that the situation of many immigrants has improved much - there is particular hostility to anyone who seems "different" - thus a white American would have no trouble living here, would be positively welcomed, but an African would be viewed with suspicion by many (not all) people.  For some reason people in this city seem to be vehemently anti-Polish too - I can't even begin to understand that one, as the Polish people are no drain on anyone's resources, they all have jobs, work very hard, speak excellent English, etc.  There is a general view amongst the local population that "they" have taken all the jobs, but in fact those jobs are the very ones that people have been unable to recruit for for years, because local people are not prepared to work for the low wages paid in retail, hotels, etc.  Similarly, it has been nigh on impossible to get a reliable tradesman for as long as I can remember - now we have Polish electricians, plumbers, etc, who turn up when they said they would, do a good job and don't treat you like you are lucky they came at all - whereas many local tradesmen fail on all three of these points.

i think you are right, there is no state effort to resettle Nigerians as far as I know, although there are charities doing their best to help.

We have a very interesting programme on TV at the moment about gypsies/travellers.  There is immense hostility to these people in the whole of the UK - they are seen as scroungers, petty criminals, etc.  The programme is showing that they do in fact have much higher standards than many of us do - eg sex before marriage is an absolute no-no, girls are not allowed to drink alcohol at all until they are married, and so on.  These people face antagonism both from other residents and from the local authorities wherever they go - I hadn't realised that they do usually own the land that they try to set up sites on - but as soon as the local councils realise who they are, they refuse to grant them planning permission.  This week's film showed heart-breaking scenes of a camp being bulldozed by a local authority - the bailiffs were sent in and were dragging people (gypsies and their local supporters) bodily away.  Another thing that stood out was how articulate and sensible the travellers were - even young children understood all too well what was going on, and had a vocabulary way beyond the average for their age.

Today is Holocaust Day.  My daughter is singing at a ceremony in Aberdeen at which people will read poems and give presentations about what this means (a girl in her school who is older than her asked yesterday "What is the Holocaust?").

Incidentally, Anna also sings at the Council's citizenship ceremonies from time to time - I suppose that would be the equivalent of your ceremony in Alexandra. 

Rosemary

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #357 on: January 27, 2011, 11:18:58 AM »
Thank you Traude for the account of your family's immigration.  It must be unfathomable to witness our "immigration" laws now. (or lack thereof)  In those days there was so red tape to deal with, now-- well they just go over or around the fence.
Why do you think that the customs officer just ordered your father's footlocker to be taped up and then not examine anything else?  Was it just embarrassment?

Quote
Hitler, an a simple man with a second-rate education and quite possibly insane, wanted more than to 'resettle' the Jews.  He set about eradicating them.  Only a contorted, criminal mind could contrive to shut away in concentration camps anybody who does not think exactly as ordered or conforms without question to anything he/she is told.

Isn't that exactly what these soldiers did to the Nigerian villagers?  They weren't conforming, the oil industry wanted the land for oil exploration and the people were displaced and/or eradicated.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

rosemarykaye

  • Posts: 3055
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #358 on: January 27, 2011, 12:01:53 PM »
Andrea - although equally inexcusable, i don't think the motivation is quite the same.  Hitler was obsessed with an ideology; oil companies are obsessed with money and profits.  When I think about it, the latter two now seem to be the motivation for most things.  I hate the way the whole of society now appears to be governed by money - and as I said earlier, the oil companies, etc can't be seen in isolation, they are all part of the western world (ie us) wanting to preserve our high standard of living and not share it with anyone else.

I am not sure what one can/should do about this.

R

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online
« Reply #359 on: January 27, 2011, 12:57:12 PM »
Well said Rosemary and I agree with you. I don't have an answer either as to what we can do about this mess.
 I am so happy that you have "found" yourself on these boards.  You seem very comfortable and not in the least bit shy about your postings.  You contribute a great deal of information and insight.

Thank you everyone for being ever diligent and hanging in here with the discussion which makes many folks shudder.  You are all an important asset here.
 I love the idea that we each bring a small part of ourselves to the boards from all over the world. It always amazes me how different and yet how similar we are.

This has been my pleasure and I thank you Traude for inviting me to join you.
May we all find, extend and pray for peace.  UDO!
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell