Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin-Prediscussion

[Ella Gibbons]

Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin "More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times The Team: William H. Seward Salmon P. Chase Edward Bates

Links: NPR Review Wilmot Proviso Dred Scott Decision Kansas-Nebraska Act Fugitive Slave Law

___________

Discussion Schedule: March 1 -  Chapters l-3 March 8 -  Chapters 4-7 March 15 -Chapters 8-11 March 22 - Chapters 12-15 March 29 - Chapters 16-19 April 5 -      Chapters 20-23 April 12 -    Chapters 24 -26

Discussion Leaders: Ella & PatH

students today are very "visual" in their psyche.   And now.....

Iphones and Blackberrys.  I haven't caught up to those hand-held devices yet have you, JEAN?  I feel fortunate that I have mastered (somewhat) the stationary computer.

PAT - are you hearing anything new about Lincoln in the media?

JOANK?

JONATHAN?

ANYONE?

[Ella Gibbons]

TO OUR PRESIDENT ABRAHAM LINCOLN ON HIS 200TH BIRTHDAY

[Ella Gibbons]

When Lincoln was born in a crude one room log cabin on this day 200 years ago," he entered a world as harsh and primitive as if he had been born a thousand years earlier.  The simple act of giving birth put his mother in mortal danger, and her only protection was the old 'granny woman' summoned from miles away.  Her baby was washed in water carried uphill from a dripping spsring, then wrapped in animal skin against the winter cold and put in a bed of corn husks standing on a damp earth floor beside a smoky fire." - TIME

[Jonathan]

'anything new about Lincoln...?'

There is for me, Ella. With this extraordinary interest in celebrating the 200th anniversary of Lincoln's birth. What a deluge of information about the sixteenth president. And I'm reacting with Tolstoyan suprise. Does Lincoln really leave such greats as Napolean, Caesar, and even George Washington in the shade?

I found last night's Looking For Lincoln, on pbs, very entertaining, listenting to the historians, Doris Kearns Goodwin among them, discussing Lincoln among themselves. Hearing what past presidents think about their predecessor in the White House. Someone said every president has to come to terms with Lincoln. Nixon, for example, found that  Lincoln was the most vilified president. G. W. Bush thinks of Lincoln as the ultimate wartime president, implying that Lincoln's life as president was made more difficult thereby than his own. Bush did feel Lincoln's abiding presence in the White House. Bill Clinton had generous things to say about Lincoln.

There are still individuals in the South who think of Lincoln as a war criminal. And some Blacks who see Lincoln as a white supremicist. Goodwin feels he was ambitious. But then so were the other guys. And there are some who say that her book TEAM OF RIVALS has already become part of the Lincoln canon.

[mabel1015j]

the History Channel is "doing" Lincoln all day...................jean

[Emily]

While driving from Chicago headed south, we traveled along the Blue Ridge Parkway toward I65 and at a stop in Kentucky, I saw a sign with directions to Lincoln's birthplace. I talked my husband into driving off the interstate toward the homestead. The road was into farm country and finally down a lane on Nolin Creek.

It was June, and the cabin was canopied by trees, bushes and grass in every color of green. The shade made it seem cooler and the sound from the creek gave this place a quiet and serenity that Thomas Lincoln may have felt when first seeing, and later purchasing this property. Lincoln was born in Hardin Co. Kentucky (later LaRue county) in this simple log cabin, but the setting was glorious. All three of the Lincoln children were born there. His baby brother is buried there.

Hodgenville, Kentucky celebrates Abraham Lincoln as a native son. There are two bronze Lincoln statues on the town square which intersects with Lincoln boulevard. They deposit their money in the Lincoln National Bank, dine at Abe's Country cooking, go to Abraham Lincoln school, enjoy live music every Saturday night at the Lincoln jamboree. They celebrate 'Lincoln Days' each October. They have a 'look-a-like' contest for two of Kentuckys most famous natives, Mary and Abraham Lincoln.

Thomas Lincoln lost the farm in Kentucky due to title problems with his deed. He moved the family across the state line to Indiana. He lost the farm in Indiana with the same title problem. His wife Nancy Hanks Lincoln also died there. By this time Abraham Lincoln was twenty-one years old. His father Thomas then moved the family onto public land in Illinois and Abraham moved with them, but soon struck out on his own, moving goods down the Samgamon, Illinois, and Mississippi on a flat boat to New Orleans.

I often hear and read about Abraham Lincoln being a native son of Illinois. He was an adult male past twenty-one years of age before he ever set foot in Illinois. He came there not by choice necessarily but because of his fathers poor business practices and being forced to move four times in a little over twenty years. Lincoln's personality was already set and his ambition carried him far in Illinois, as it probably would have in any other place.

Emily

[BarbStAubrey]

I always thought Lincoln a pragmatic man and after the PBS show last evening I am convinced - further - The stories of Mary Todd Lincoln were a puzzlement - Living in Lexington Ky. there was not much discussion but when brought up in conversation Mary's name was always couched with "the rest of the nation said" - in the 1950s and 60s there was still a "polite" silence rather than vocalizing disagreement and so the tone suggest the nation accepted gossip to be dismissed and then the rest of the remark spoke of the high esteem held for the Todd family and how she isolated herself in her house after the death of her husband.

And so with that I am not sure we can get an intimate knowledge of Lincoln either - the information available is third party therefore, we do not know his true heart versus, his bringing order to the nation and if order required freedom and liberty it was supported. I see him as a pragmatic leader, a gifted orator, who used words to go about the business of creating an orderly society within a unified nation that subscribed to one constitution.

[JoanP]

Have you read any of  Doris Kearns Goodwin's other works?  She reminds me of David McCullough - a true historian, a careful researcher - with an eye for often overlooked detail.  If anyone can get up close and personal with Abe Lincoln, she can.

If you lived in Washington DC, you would see the big hullabaloo associated with the 200th birthday celebration.  We are heading out to the reopening of Ford's Theater...it's been closed for two years undergoing renovation.  The Library of Congress, the National Archives, all putting on special exhibits...
No parades, no holiday, but you can bet schoolchildren are hearing all about Abe!

[mabel1015j]

DKG's "No Ordinary Time" about Eleanor and F Roosevelt during the war years reads like a novel rather than a non-fiction facts and figures book - altho she puts plenty of those in there also.................yes, it is similar to McCullough's writing.................jean

[PatH]

Lincoln's birthday has just become even more important.  As of 11pm last night, it's also the birthday of my first grandchild.

[ANNIE]

Oh, PatH, what a thrill for you and your family.  Will you have pictures soon.  Do bring one in to show us.  Congratulations!!!

Sorry I didn't get in here to wish old Abe a happy birthday but better late than never!  Did anyone listen to the President's speech about Lincoln???  That was televised yesterday.

I watched the PBS program and found it interesting.  Two things that stood out were the many remarks about Lincoln being just a human being like all of us with all our own warts.  Also, I did not know that he wanted to send the freed slaves back to Africa. 

About Mary Lincoln, I have read several books about her but can't remember the titles.
She and Lincoln both suffered migraine headaches and other ailments. She was a very unhappy woman but she did lose thee sons and had reason for her unhappiness as did her husband. OH, I do remember that Irving Stone wrote a book about her entitled "Love Is Eternal" which by reading the following link, I discovered where the titled came from.  Its engraved on her wedding ring! 
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jan/25/tr-book-shows-2-sides-of-mary-todd-lincoln/
For those of you who might want to continue reading about the Lincolns, there is a plethora of titles out there including the one mentioned in the link.  It is a brand new book which is supposed to be an accurate story of Mary Todd Lincoln. 
In looking for books about Mrs Lincoln, I found that she had also written her own biography.  That might be worth perusing.

[Jonathan]

Congratulations all around, Pat. What a distinction for your grandchild and what a delightful happening for you.

I like the comparison being made with the David McCullough style of writing history. We all know how readable he is, and now I have evidence that Goodwin's history also has that quality. My reserved library copy of TOR was finally available. It was acquired by the system in 2006, and has obviously been in circulation ever since. It very obviously has been read many times from cover to cover. It may be 'history lite', but I'm genuinely impressed by all the meat left on the bones to chew on.

I long ago gave up waiting for my reserve and went out and bought my own copy, so I'm well into it. I'm enjoying Goodwin's unique approach to this epochal event in a nation's history, and to the many characters and their roles in her historical panorama. Take for example this statement:

'Few recognized the insecurity behind Mary's outlandish behavior, the terrible needs behind the ostentation and apparent abrasiveness.'

This follows some graphic description  of the 'peril threatening the city' at the outbreak of hostility. Wonderful how the president could keep his head while all around him were losing theirs.

[Ella Gibbons]

Congratulations, Grandma Pat! 

THANK YOU, EMILY, for that lovely post about Lincoln's birthplace.

"Hodgenville, Kentucky celebrates Abraham Lincoln as a native son."

A small little town in Kentucky!  I didn't know the name of the town although I knew he was born in Kentucky.   Actually, I've never been to any of the places in Illinois where Lincoln's name is proudly displayed.  SPRINGFIELD has certainly been in the news due to Obama's great tribute on the steps of the Statehouse there.  Isn't he a gifted orator!   As was Lincoln!!

I hope you join us, EMILY, as we read the book.

What would be Lincoln's rection to our president?

Hello, JONATHAN!!  Don't read too far in advance of the group!  We will be posting our Reading Schedule soon; it is an estimate but we'll try to stick to it as closely as possible.  Yes, and I agree, Goodwin is readable, factual, and you mentioned Mary's behavior.  What a pair they must have been!  Lincoln's depression, his melancholy periods, must have been difficult to live with and you can't blame his marriage for his moods. 

Perhaps his very sad childhood?

Thanks for the post, BARBARA!

"I am not sure we can get an intimate knowledge of Lincoln either - the information available is third party therefore, we do not know his true heart"  I agree,  but there are scraps of Lincoln's own feelings, via letters, in this book that give us some insight.  And letters of colleagues that talk of Lincoln that afford us a better glimpse of the man.

As, JOANP says, Goodwin can get up close and personal with her subjects.

HELLO ANN!   That was a good program about Lincoln on PBS!  There were several on different aspects of his life; it's unbelievable that historians can still write more and more books about him when one believes that everything has been said!

History is never dead.

[JoanK]

Lincoln and Darwin's birth on February twelfth two hundred years ago was just a prelude to the birth of Robert Vernon Kaiser, PatH's grandson and my greatnephew!! Expect great things to happen in about thirty years!

But when I asked Pat if she'd rather he looked like Lincoln or Darwin, we were both stumped. Luckily, he looks like himself.

I loved "No Ordinary Time" by Goodwin. It's not "History lite at all, just because it's readable.

[Mippy]

Just checking in ...  looks like a great group!
I've got my book and have started reading!

[JoanK]

MIPPY!! HI. HI! Come join us.

[Ella Gibbons]

WE DO HAVE A GREAT GROUP, MIPPY!   And I know you will be here opening day, right?

Hi JOANK!!

Lincoln!  Lincoln!  Again, more about the man on Presidents Day,

Our newspaper said out of 65 historians Lincoln was judged to be the best president!  I wonder what those 65 historians based their beliefs on.  What criteria was used?

The next best presidents were, predictably, George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt and FDR.

Do you think that warfare brings out the qualities of leadership that enable men to become great?  All those men presided over the nation (with the exception of Teddy, perhaps) during times of great stress.

There are three families who produced subsequent presidents in the country.  The Roosevelt family, the Bush family and the Adams family.  Heredity?   Know-how?

[Pat]

On my PBS station I am watching the Assassination of Lincoln.

[Ella Gibbons]

Tell us about it, Pat.

[Jonathan]

I watched the Assassination of Lincoln a week ago in my broadcast area, followed two  days later by Looking for Lincoln. Made me eager to start talking about the book.

Why did 65 historians choose Lincoln as the best president? What were the criteria? I believe everything comes together for the historian in the life and times of Lincoln...character, events, fate, the destinies of nations and individuals...it's awesome. There's always a fresh aspect of Lincoln's life to research and tell about. The other day at the bookstore I saw half a dozen new things on Lincoln, including a book with the title THE GREAT COMEBACK, with Lincoln losing the senate race to Stephen Douglas, in 1858, despite 'winning' the great debate series, and then coming back to win the presidency  in 1860, which in turn was so fateful for the nation. I must get that.

Last night I watched something called Stephen Fry's America, an Englishman's travels across America in his London cab. with a stop at Mt. Rushmore. Even there it struck me...Lincoln's position on the mountain face...the best set apart somewhat from the greatest.

How to explain that look of tragedy or sorrow that so often haunted Lincoln's portraits. I sure hope we can get to the bottom of that.

[kidsal]

Received my book today.
For those of us who live along old Highway 30 - The Lincoln Highway - now Interstate 80.
There was a PBS show on what is left of the original alignment.  Many towns having a Lincoln Way or Lincoln St as the highway passed through.  Between Laramie and Cheyenne, WY, there is a large statue of Lincoln along I-80.

[Ella Gibbons]

It's 22 degrees out and so windy.  I opened my front door to get the paper and was just about blasted off the earth!

Great post, JONATHAN!   Mt. Rushmore.  The best vs. the greatest!  Is there a difference?  Wasn't there a book about the carving of those faces?  And if someone were to do that today whom would they choose?  Interesting speculation.

KIDSAL, I am so happy you will be joining our group.  I didn't know that Interstate 80 is the Lincoln Highway, I wish I had seen the PBS show.  I've always wanted to travel the whole Interstate #40, the oldest I believe, and have traversed some of it.  Lincolnmania!

And another:   The Lincoln Town Car 

Kidsal, have you read other books by Goodwin?  To be truthful, I have not, this will be my first adventure into this historian's views and as someone said earlier we will be on the lookout for biases; however, her 100 pages of source notes are daunting to look at.  Ten years it took the author to research and write the book!  Why?  When there are so many others?

By researching and writing about three other men, who were closely allied to Lincoln for several years, she has a different story to tell and one that illuminates Lincoln in various ways.

One of the men, Salmon P. Chase, is from my home state of Ohio so I will be looking at him in a critical light; hoping the state can be proud.

Our schedule is posted in the heading now and, as you can see, we will take our time, as much time as we desire, to discuss the book.

[Emily]

Thank you Ella for the welcome. I do not plan to read the book, as I have too many commitments at present. I have read other works on Lincoln and found the pages about his cabinet boring, but maybe Goodwin can bring them to life.

I am interested in Lincoln's family and have picked up the book, The Last Lincoln by Charles Lachman. Mary Todd and Abraham Lincoln had four children, but only one lived to adulthood and produced children. The last Lincoln died in 1985. He was Abe's great grandson, Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith, and he died without producing any children.

So no more Lincolns, which makes it perhaps easier to heap praise on Lincoln without the spector of his offspring winding up in the tabloids. Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith was roundly derided by almost everyone including the author as a ne'er do well.

Emily

[kidsal]

Glad to be here!  Haven't read any of her books but have seen her often on talk shows discussing history.

[hats]

Good morning Ella and All,

I see the Dred Scott Decision and The Fugitive Slave Law in the heading. I am definitely interested. Abraham Lincoln is such a complex individual I doubt if we can ever learn enough about him and this period in History. President Obama has refocused our eyes on Abraham Lincoln making him a part of American History that can not be forgotten.

[mabel1015j]

Just read an article in a month-old Newsweek about Obama using the Lincoln Bible to be sworn in.............a secondary, or perhaps the primary, story of that happening is that Chief Justice Taney who swore in Lincoln on that Bible was the person who wrote the Dred Scott decision. That decision said not only were Blacks not citizens of the U.S., but that Blacks were "beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate w/ the White race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the White man was abound to respect."!!! The IRONY! and perhaps the real reason Obama used that Bible?

Dahlia Lithwick, the author of the article says "It is in some ways the symbolic closing of a constitutional circle. What a wonderful closing..................jean

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks for the post, EMILY!  Stop in once inawhile next month and say hello to us.  I read THE LAST LINCOLN and and I am somewhat sorry that I did.  It puts everything about Lincoln in such a different light, but I won't spoil it for you. 

Goodwin does an excellent job with Lincoln's cabinet, particularly the three rivals he had before taking office.  She makes them come to life for us and I daresay I find them so interesting because of the light they shed on our "best" president.  What difficult decisions Lincoln had to make and what courage they must have taken.

I'd love to ask high school students about the Civil War and Lincoln's part in it, wouldn't you?

I don't have grandchildren and am so sorry I do not.  I had a short discussion in the waiting room of a dentist's office about the Great Depression and was asked my opinion from a high school student.  He was studying it at the time and, although a child at the time I had a few impressions; one of my most vivid was the day I found out that the country has elections and changes presidents.  Hahahaa

Hi KIDSAL.   Our author is knowledgeable on TV isn't she?  It helps when an author can talk as well as write; makes one wonder about the interviews with authors that BookTV must have or how do they make such decisions?

HATS!  Those laws of the land in the heading are probably the most important that led to the Civil War, but there are others that we will be discussing.  I am so happy you will be joining us!   

Thanks for the post, JEAN!   Could be the reason why Obama used that bible and could be many other reasons, could we ask him?  The Dred Scott decision was described by Justice Fellix Frankurter as "one of the Court's great self-inflicted wounds."  Chief Justice Taney was an ardent supporter of the South and slavery and Goodwin writes quite a lot about him, as she does about other characters of that period that we may not have thought to read about.

[mabel1015j]

I'm on the hold list at the library, but i think there is one person ahead of me for the book, so i went yesterday and got the audio version. My problem w/ that is that i won't be sure of the chapters that you are reading, so i'll try to be a little "behind" you in your discussion so i'm sure not to be "ahead." ........ does anyone understand that besides me??  LOL...............can't wait to get started.............jean

[PatH]

Only a week to go!  We have sure got a good bunch of people ready to discuss this interesting book.  I can hardly wait.

[Ella Gibbons]

Yes, PAT, it's going to be fun, isn't it, to pull the curtain - oops!  I mean open the book, turn the pages.  I watched the Oscars last night, which has no relevance to this discussion, except it has a little to do with entertainment, of which Lincoln was fond..  This morning I thought of Ford's Theater and looked it up on Google wondering how it got its name.

It started as a church, did you know that?  I didn't!  And then a fellow by the name of Ford bought and turned it into the theater.  After the assassination it was used for storage, I don't imagine anyone wanted to go in there again.  It's rather amazing that it survived don't you think? 

[PatH]

It started as a church, did you know that?.... It's rather amazing that it survived don't you think? 

No, I didn't know that, and it is surprising no one tore it down.  When I was growing up, it was a rather uninteresting museum.  The inside had been gutted, so all you saw was glass cases of exhibits.  They re-did it as a theater a long time ago, and have just renovated it, partly to improve the very uncomfortable seats.  JoanP was going to the re-opening.  What was it like, Joan? 

[Jonathan]

It would be interesting to hear more about the Ford Theater. Were the bicentennial celebrations of Lincoln's birthday the occasion for the renovations? Was any attempt made at restoration of the original theater? It must be practically a shrine for many Americans, given the stature of Abraham Lincoln. Could anything staged there  now match the drama of April, 1865? What an awesome place in history he earned for himself. Mountains and highways, parks and buildings, streets and counties, all bear his name. I grew up in Lincoln County

I like the discussion schedule. It should give us lots of time to allow Goodwin to convince us that she has portrayed the real Lincoln, as she set out to do.

[Ella Gibbons]

WE WANT TO HEAR ALL ABOUT IT, JOANP!  Was there a play that night?  What was the name of it?

Was it the play OUR AMERICAN COUSIN (or something like that!) that was staged the night Lincoln was killed?  I could look it up, of course. 

There must be a difference of some sort between the two words - killed, assassinated - because it seems that whenever we speak of Lincoln or Kennedy's death the word "assassination" is used?  Is it ever used for any other person?

Another thought this morning is that Lincoln is put upon a very high pedestal (actuallly he is on the mall, haha) but one never hears, at least I never have, many negative remarks about him.  He was not a god, he was human.  We have, in several recent books, torn down the god-like images of several of our past heros, such as Thomas Jefferson.  But Lincoln remains.

[PatH]

Here's the website of Ford's Theater.

http://www.fordstheatre.org/

It's one of those annoying sites where you have trouble finding the fact you want, but by implication the theater looks like it did then.  You can take a virtual tour.  They are currently doing a commissioned work, "The Heavens Are Hung in Black", dealing with a portion of Lincoln's life, but they may have had a special program on the 12th.

I read somewhere than "Our American Cousin"  is totally tedious and unwatchable for modern audiences.

[mabel1015j]

Date: 1321
assassinate
1 : to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously
2 : to murder (a usually prominent person) by sudden or secret attack often for political reason

to assassinate seems to have "sudden" attack in all the definitions i've looked at, and "usually a politician or prominent person."

look at that date from Webster Dict'y, i love that kind of trivia

Encarta
1. murder: the killing of somebody, especially a political leader or other public figure, by a sudden violent attack
..................jean

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder if the reluctance to use the word murder has to do with how the killer was disposed - neither Lincoln's or Kennedy's killer was tried in a court room - and where neither was  hidden, so the public did not know who they were, like an assassin their story was not made public in a court of law.

[Jonathan]

All very interesting. It seems to matter how one thinks of Lincoln's death. I would be happiest with the term that has him sharing the glory of all the thousands of valiant soldiers who died in the Civil War. Fallen heroes. All of them. Whether C-in-C, or lowly pfc. What an ill-fated president. Begun with the shot at Fort Sumter, and ended with the shot at Ford's Theater. I believe Lincoln enjoyed the action, loved reviewing his troops, felt drawn to the battlefields and exposing himself to danger. He will never be brought down from his pedestal without seeing his 'house divided' crumble into ruin. His nation's soul still needs him.

The author of a recent book has it all wrong when he insists that Stanton, the secretary of war, declared, in Lincoln's death chamber, 'now he belongs to the angels', and not, as universally accepted, 'and now he belongs to the ages.' What do you think?

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, PAT, for that site on Ford's Theatre; the current play is set in 1862 and the playwright says he chose that date because it is when Lincoln lost his son and other families were losing their sons in battle.  Death is the theme?  I doubt Lincoln would want his legacy portrayed in that manner. 

As JONATHAN said he is a part, a large part of the nation's soul.  Well said!!!  Thank you for your post.

And what does it matter if Stanton said it or not, Lincoln does belong to the ages and the angels.  We know.

That's a good thought, BARBARA!  Thanks for that, it could be that is why the term "assassination" is used, I don't know!!  Interesting!

I'm missing something, JEAN!  What does that date signify?  1321?

--------------------

Comments from Obama's speech last night?  Anyone? 

In his statement that there is crisis in opportunity (which is an interesting thought) he mentioned that during the Civil War they laid a railroad across the United States.  I don't know a thing about this and it is not mentioned in our current book. 

Would anyone have an idea of the projects, the labor involved, that he was referring to.  It seems to me that most of the young men would have been in the war in some capacity, but railroad building out west?  From other books I have the idea that railroads were built to the south to accomodate supplies to the soldiers, perhaps that is what he was referring to, and, being a Lincoln scholar I am sure he is correct.

I was amused that a commentator corrected Obama when he said that America invented the automobile!  Of course, he was referring to the industrialization that Henry Ford invented.  Sometimes Americans get a bit too proud, perhaps?  And I was also amused (as Lincoln would have been) when Obama said "nobody messes with Joe Biden."  I think that was the kind of humor that Lincoln would have inserted.

Much patriotism, love of country, inspired ideas in the speech; no storytelling, though.

[BarbStAubrey]

Two interesting links with information on building the railroad and the Civil War

http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/sherman2.html

http://tiny.cc/L6aNN

[mabel1015j]

Ella - i was just impressed that the word assassination was that old...........i love that stuff........................jean