Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The (Read 493825 times)

ginny · « **Reply #1320 on:** April 29, 2011, 10:38:37 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:

April 29-----Book XII: Scylla, Charybdis and the Cattle of Helios

Scylla

Odysseus and the Cattle of Helios
Pelegrino Tibaldi
1527-1596

Discussion Leaders: Joan K & ginny

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus on a makeshift raft
Attic black figure vase
7 BC

Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

roshanarose · « **Reply #1321 on:** April 30, 2011, 01:59:54 AM »

Ginny - I have been meaning to thank and compliment you on the beautiful pictures that you illustrate our story with. They set the scene perfectly.

As I was reading about the Sirens, I was reminded of a movie released in 2009 with Colin Farrell (Alexander the Great - Oliver Stone). The movie, which I haven't yet seen, is about a selkie. The following is a brief description:

"Storyline
On the coast of Cork, Syracuse is a fisherman, on the wagon, living alone. His precocious daughter, Annie, about 10, has failing kidneys. One day, a nearly-drowned young woman comes up in his net; she speaks oddly, calls herself Ondine, and wants no one to see her. He puts her up in an isolated cottage that was his mother's. Annie discovers Ondine's presence and believes she's a selkie, a mythical seal turned human while on land. If this is a fairy tale, is there a happily ever after, or do the realities of alcohol, illness, and worse intrude, including Syracuse's inveterate bad luck? As his priest tell him, misery's easy, it's happiness you have to work at. Any hope of that? Written by <jhailey@hotmail.com> "

I thought it was somewhat apt that the fisherman's name is Syracuse. The way Syracuse is described here reminds me so much of our Odysseus.

Babi · « **Reply #1322 on:** April 30, 2011, 09:12:31 AM »

Yes, I thought it a bit odd that Teiresias didn't mention the sirens
while giving his prophetic warning. Odysseus sails all that way to seek
out this seer, and he sends them off with only half the dangers revealed.
Isn't that rather typical of oracles? It was so easy to misinterpret what
an oracle said, never mind what they neglected to say.

JudeS · « **Reply #1323 on:** April 30, 2011, 12:17:27 PM »

In this chapter we see how important Circe is to the plot. She loves O. with a selfless love and gives him sound advice on how to overcome the grave dangers of the Sirens, Scylla and Charybis and eating te cattle of Helios. It is not for nought she spent seven years with O. She knows him well. (lines 12:125-127)

"So stubborn!" the lovely goddess countered.
"Hell bent yet again on battle and feats of arms?
Can't you bow to the deathlikw gods themselves?"

When we discussed Circe (chapter 5) for some reason I mentioned how much I liked Circe since her love for O. seemed so real. Here again is the final evidence of her love . Even though O. is returning to Penelope she helps him.His safety is more important than her love.

ginny · « **Reply #1324 on:** April 30, 2011, 12:19:02 PM »

Thank you RoshanaRose, I appreciate that. I'm glad you are enjoying the heading art. I hesitated to put all that in as it does make a long scroll every day but I figure how CAN we read this and not at least SEE some of the historic art it spawned? Already this discussion is not like any other, it's broken all the records here on SL, it's got more than 1,300 posts, it's got record page views, and it's DIFFERENT. And so is the Odyssey. The issue is, is there anything here we can actually relate to in 2011?

Writing in the April 25th issue of Newsweek on Greg Mortenson, of Three Cups of Tea fame, in The Fall of Greg Mortenson and our Longing for Heroes, in an article titled:

Shattered Faith
What the fall of Greg Mortenson tells us about America’s irrepressible longing for heroes, the author Hampton Sides makes this point:

Quote

Americans have a profound longing for heroes—now perhaps more than ever. We need our explorers, our sports icons, our Medal of Freedom winners, our Nobel laureates. We need our Greatest Generation warriors, our “Sully” Sullenbergers, our Neil Armstrongs. On some level, we still subscribe to the myth of the man in the white hat. We yearn to believe not only in his good deeds but in his inherent goodness as a person. Perhaps it’s something rooted in our Puritan past, but we seem to have a monochromatic view of heroism. We have a hard time believing that the doer of a heroic deed could have serious defects or even be rotten to the core. Heroes are supposed to be heroic—period. We prefer to take ours neat.

Here is the entire article: http://www.newsweek.com/2011/04/24/shattered-faith.html

"Heroes are supposed to be heroic- period. We prefer to take ours neat."

And here's Odysseus. Is he a hero by 2011 standards? Captain Sullenberger kept his cool, too. Would O be considered a hero today?

It's been a long time since we've encountered goddesses like Circe and bird women. Of course we can see whirlpools, even mega pools in movies, but here Odysseus the MAN is being heroic-- by the standards of his day, or is he?

Dana has already suggested perhaps Homer went out on a limb with Achilles shown regretting his decision for Kleos over family. O is the essential family man, or would you say so? His abiding interest so far has been:

(1) to get home
(2) to gain fame and kleos

In that last one he's pretty much in touch with our 2011 Celebrity Culture: fame at whatever cost

But equal in his striving is the desire to get home. He's not done particularly well with it, or has he? He COULD have stayed with Calpyso or Circe and not left. What caused him TO leave? Was it he?

IF Homer is showing any of these storied heroes as thinking feeling people other than heroic symbols that would be a great change. Is O changing at all?

Where is the rash braggart of the Iliad (Ajax conflict) bragging on his mental prowess or the rash hollerer to the Cyclops?

Is he changing?

RoshannaRose I loved your parallel of the selkie! Man that description looks to me like a modern tale OF Odysseus, doesn't it, the "or do the realities of alcohol, illness, and worse intrude, including Syracuse's inveterate bad luck? " especially.

Now the Temple questions have me wondering. "How is his crew like the suitors back in Ithaca?"

ARE they like the suitors? The suitors are eating them out of house and home, they are greedy, they are abusing the ideas of hospitality, they are making demands and they are plotting murders. What else are they doing? How is this like the crew?

Babi, good point on Tiresias, I wonder if he did that (as you say the prophesies and oracles sure were vague sometimes) to hone in on the one important danger where O actually could lose it all?

I was interested that it was Circe not O, who came up with what to do to avoid being caught by the Sirens. Several places on the Amalfi coast have been considered to have been the home of the sirens, I like to think Sorrento is because it sure has a siren call even today.

I loved the description of Scylla and Charybdis, talk about being between a rock and a hard place!

Let's look at the crew a bit. I have considered them blameless. How responsible are they in any of this for their own deaths and misfortunes, do you think?

A water logged drachma for your thoughts.

JoanK · « **Reply #1325 on:** April 30, 2011, 05:24:35 PM »

The first thing I noticed was that on the greek vase, thesirens weren't women at all! or at least, you could hardly tell. We had Circe, who lured men in and then distroyed them (i.e. turned them into animals). Are the sirens just a version of that? Is the sexuality in your translation of the text, or do we add it?

And why, why did circe, if she loved him, send him off to hades to hear Tiresis' prophacy, when she could have told him exactly the same thing?

I hope PatH will come in and explain what the keel is. I think it's the rib that runs along the bottom of the boat fron front to back. I'm trying to visualize it tied to the mast. Perpendicular, so the result is L-shaped, and he can stand on the keel (base of the L)?

JoanK · « **Reply #1326 on:** April 30, 2011, 05:26:41 PM »

Ginny: the point you made about our longing for heros is important. I clearly am one who wanted to see Mortenson as a hero -- now you HAVETO tell me what he did to fall?

PatH · « **Reply #1327 on:** April 30, 2011, 08:05:44 PM »

I'm surprised I beat Gumtree to this one, but she is the one who first called this poem to my attention. What was the song the sirens sang? Thanks to Margaret Atwood, we now know.

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/siren-song/

roshanarose · « **Reply #1328 on:** April 30, 2011, 09:42:40 PM »

PatH - Thank you for Margaret Atwood's version of what it is like to be a siren, albeit a somewhat disgruntled one.

The poem I am about to post is actually lyrics of a song by one Jeff Buckley of whom some of you may have heard. YouTube has the song being sung by the two women who formed the duo "This Mortal Coil". Like most of Jeff Buckley's work it is very mournful, very Greek. However, when I re read the lyrics it called selkie to me.

Lyrics to "Song to the Siren" by This Mortal Coil

On the floating, shapeless oceans
I did all my best to smile
til your singing eyes and fingers
drew me loving into your eyes.

And you sang "Sail to me, sail to me;
Let me enfold you."

Here I am, here I am waiting to hold you.
Did I dream you dreamed about me?
Were you here when I was full sail?

Now my foolish boat is leaning, broken love lost on your rocks.
For you sang, "Touch me not, touch me not, come back tomorrow."
Oh my heart, oh my heart shies from the sorrow.
I'm as puzzled as a newborn child.
I'm as riddled as the tide.
Should I stand amid the breakers?
Or shall I lie with death my bride?

Hear me sing: "Swim to me, swim to me, let me enfold you."
"Here I am. Here I am, waiting to hold you.".

PatH · « **Reply #1329 on:** April 30, 2011, 09:55:45 PM »

Roshanarose, yes, that seems very selkie, and very good.

PatH · « **Reply #1330 on:** April 30, 2011, 10:02:49 PM »

The keel: JoanK is right, the keel is the rib that runs along the boat from front to back. The mast is in a socket which is strongly attached to the boat in some way. The mast is held straight by forestays (ropes or leather) leading to the front of the boat and backstays leading to the back. In Lombardo:

First the wind snaps the forestays, and the mast falls backward, killing the helmsman. Then Zeus’ thunderbolt sends all the men overboard. Odysseus

…”kept pacing the deck until the sea surge
Tore the sides from the keel. The waves
Drove the bare keel on and snapped the mast
From its socket; the leather backstay
Was still attached, and I used this to lash
The keel to the mast. Perched on these timbers
I was swept along by deathly winds.”

He gets caught in Charybdis, but grabs on to a fig tree and, when the mast and keel are spat out again, drops down, swims to them, climbs on, and rows with his hands.

This seems mostly clear (the mast seems to have been snapped out twice and we're not sure if more timbers than the keel were left)—O is left with two long pieces of wood lashed together by the leather backstay. Floating or rowing on this he comes to Calypso.

JoanK, I’m sorry the words don’t seem to fit your vision of O standing on the keel with the mast upright, because that would make O literature’s first windsurfer.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1331 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:11:03 AM »

My knowing of a Silkie is from the myth of the Orkney's - the Great Silkie is half human and half seal - there is a belief that at times through out history silkies come ashore to mate with a woman and they later return to take the small child out to sea where they live forever more. One of the most haunting versions of this ancient Ballad is sung by Joan Baez - since I play the Dulcimer that enables the use of the modes the music for this ballad is written in an ancient mode no longer used to compose music. Here is the Great Silkie [or sometimes spelled Selchies] of Sule Skerrie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zZy2Q3QY0Q

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1332 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:51:54 AM »

Trying to get a picture of what is left of this ship is not easy - the ship does not need a keel - all a keel does is keep a sailboat from drifting sideway - there can be a center board dropped in place of a keel or there were ancient crafts that used what looked like center boards but they were attached on both side of the boat - and so the fact that the keel remains is helpful to allow the timbers to go with the wind and tides -

A mast is not a stationary attached part of a ship - there are plates or elaberate sockets that the mast slips into - these plates or sockets could be attached to the keel but the fact that the mast split or broke low near the keel would simply means there is quite a length of timber that is the mast sheered off and held on with the backstays - which are the lines [ropes] that are from the mast attached to the stern of the boat

What is confusing is that Homer simply says the sea tore the sides from the keel - it does not say the sea tore the sides from the hull - it says that the timbers shivered at the blow referring to Zeus sending a bolt - I am assuming lightening - even if the sides were torn from the hull there is still a frame that is like ribs which is referred to as Timbers - Homer says the mast fell into the hold which is the space created by the hull.

And so even if all the siding was torn from the ship there are still the timbers that give the ship shape that the keel is attached to allowing this floating barge to move forward rather than sliding sideways in the water with when the waves hit it. The value of saving the mast I would think is the work of finding a tree that large and getting it to the shoreline where it can be dressed into a mast is backbreaking labor and time consuming so he has the mast lashed to the skeleton of a ship with a keel - he is still subject to the currents drifting at sea.

Here is a pretty good site that if you wait a minute all the photos come up with the various parts of this ship labeled - it is a large 3 mastered schooner but you can get an idea if you are not familier with how a sail boat is constructed and the terms used to define the parts of a sailing ship. http://www.sailclassics.com/pdf/instructions/Atlantic-inst.pdf

Here is a video of a small boat being timbered - you will notice you cannot see the Keel which is under the hull being timbered
http://woodenboatbuilder.multiply.com/video/item/5/Timbering_the_Gig

A fun site showing the building of a wooden boat that I think I read is 22 feet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QeRt9PPy00&feature=related

Babi · « **Reply #1333 on:** May 01, 2011, 08:31:40 AM »

And doesn't Circe know how to flatter men, JUDE?! She welcomes O's crew with
"Hearts of oak!, did you go down alive into the homes of Death?
One visit finishes all men but yourselves, twice mortal!."
No wonder they were in 'high humor'.

Considering that the crew were supposed to stop up their ears in order not
to hear the sirens' song, I was a bit amused by Mr. Draper's version. He
depicts lithe, naked women swarming over the bows of the ship. I can't imagine
the crew ignoring that!

PatH · « **Reply #1334 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:52:09 PM »

Barb, I really like your video of the boat building. It gives a great notion of the keel, too. Starting at about 4 min 23 seconds, you can see it--the big, pinkish, curved piece of wood in the foreground. By another minute it's been partially painted orange, making it easy to spot as they attach timbers to it. The structure of the boat is quite clear.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1335 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:13:12 PM »

Only that is not a keel Pat - if you notice before they start adding the timber there is a space worked into the main beam - it is long and about a third of the thickness of that piece - that is where the center board will be dropped - if you look when the boat is closer to being finished you can see the housing for the center board - this is not a keel boat - a keel would be continued below that beam - it has no storage space - it does have siding with a structure - I will see if I can find a Youtube with a keel but you can imagine I bet if you saw a boat out of water and the bottom is not rounded off but continues down as if coming to a sharp edge at the bottom.

I will try and track at what time in the video above you can see where they have prepared the space for the Center Board and then at what time in the video the housing for the center board is visible in the hull.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1336 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:31:32 PM »

OK on the video clock at 1:48 you see the large saw on a large table that straddles the piece of wood is cutting the space for the center board - then on either side of the newly cut rectangle space are pieces of thinner wood poking skyward on a perpendicular angle - they paint this area on the video blue at 2:24 and then at 4:12 you can see the housing for the center board - that white almost rectangle with a what looks like a piece cut out of it towards the bow.

Now that center piece they are working on- I forgot the name - it is not a beam - on a ship since the beam of a ship is the width from hull side to hull side at its widest - I just flat forget the name of that piece but I used the expression the beam as a piece of large thick lumber that we are used to calling a beam - like an eye beam in a building that spans a large open space that does not have upright supports every 18 to 24 inches apart.

A center board is a large flat piece that can be dropped in open water and pulled back into its housing allowing the boat to get closer to shore or to travel up a river - the weight of a boat means some of the hull is below the water line so a keel or center board is adding to the depth requirement. Again, all it does is keep the boat going forward rather than moving sideways with wind, current, tide etc.

Let me see if I can find a keel being built - most keel boats are large and most likely built commercially - I saw one but the video was all about how he and his family ended up shipbuilders rather than showing the process of building.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1337 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:51:38 PM »

Success - I found some Youtube of building a boat with a keel - it does not show them constructing the keel but you can see the difference and it is probably good to have seen the other video first to have a better idea of what is going on and the difference

This is a Turkish wooden boat. - Yes it starts with a jewelery ad and then the line of dialogue disappears shortly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hctvrogbE5Q&feature=related

And that can more easily be followed up with this glimpse of a keel boat built in Bristol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YSUcuzC7C4&feature=related

JudeS · « **Reply #1338 on:** May 01, 2011, 06:47:16 PM »

Sorry to interrupt the boat talk but I can't get over my urge to share my favorite poetic lines which were influenced by the sirens. They are the ending of T.S.Eliots "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock". These lines are supposedly some of the best written ones of 20th century poetry .
They are the end of a long and wonderful poem about growing old.

"Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing , each to each.

I do not think they will sing to me.

I have seen them riding seaward on the waves
Combing the white hair of the waves blown back
When the wind blows the water white and black.

We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

ginny · « **Reply #1339 on:** May 01, 2011, 08:43:45 PM »

Oh that's a good one, Jude! I love TS Eliot and had not made that connection at all! I used to wonder about the peach when I was younger, I didn't know what it meant. I would ask people why should he dare to eat a peach? I think I know now. hahaa

I totally forgot the bit about the mermaids, in that one, good one!

I like your perspective on Circe's love for Odysseus, too, that point keeps sticking with me, SHE'S the one who told him about plugging up his ears, it wasn't his idea. If she hadn't he'd not have made it, apparently.

My goodness and here's RoshannaRose with Lyrics to "Song to the Siren" by This Mortal Coil, that's marvelous. It's astounding the modern derivatives of this poem.

And here's Pat H with Margaret Atwood's Siren Song, I had never head of that either till Gum mentioned it, thank you for that!

I have LOVED the boat discussion. I'm not entirely sure I know what a keel is, even now, I keep thinking "keel haul" and am not sure but I sure have watched those boat things, absolutely love them.

In the first one with the speeded up motion I had no earthly idea that it took so long to build a boat. I don't know what I was thinking. For the longest time it didn't look like a boat, at all. I actually watched that twice. It's kind of fascinating. I wish it had narration other than the sign, oops we left the camera on all night. hahaha

Then I watched the one on the model boats and I have to tell you, I once thought I'd get a small sail boat? Forget it, there's entirely too much STUFF to have to deal with, never saw so many ropes and masts and what not.

KEEL still escapes me. I can't picture him on this thing whatever it is, and it still floating. Why would one beam sort of thing float? Is he clinging to it like a piece of flotsam?

Golly what gifts you've all brought.

Joan K, The first thing I noticed was that on the greek vase, thesirens weren't women at all! or at least, you could hardly tell. We had Circe, who lured men in and then distroyed them (i.e. turned them into animals). Are the sirens just a version of that? Is the sexuality in your translation of the text, or do we add it?

That's a good question. I was struck, too by their unattractiveness half bird, it's interesting and I don't know the answer because some Sirens don't sing. It was the song, tho, right? I mean it can't be the body, half of them are fish and half of them are mermaids. I like the bird ones, so ugly.

On this one: Ginny: the point you made about our longing for heros is important. I clearly am one who wanted to see Mortenson as a hero -- now you HAVETO tell me what he did to fall? Apparently he lied about being abducted by the Taliban, stumbling into the country and vowing to help, some of the schools he built weren't built, people are denying a lot of what he said, his organization for which he went about soliciting funds may have some non existent bookkeeping and on and on. I don't KNOW, this is what I've been able to gather here and there, I don't know if it's true or not, but it's what's been said. I didn't see the 60 Minutes, did any of you? I wonder if there can actually BE a resolution to this?

Here's something you have GOT to see. I went looking for whirlpools this morning because I wanted to show the one in the Pirates of the Caribbean movie which also references the Odyssey as an example of Charybdis and I found this, it's absolutely marvelous and who knew, he references every piece of literature there is EXCEPT the Odyssey, even Poe, Melville, you name it, they are all here except the Odyssey (obviously he needs to read more? hahaha)

PLUS the Pirates, wonderful footage but he explains what a whirlpool IS and what it ISN'T and how it would NOT take a ship down. He's also got footage of the biggest ones in the world (and they are something else) and what causes them, they are called properly, the big ones, Malestroms.

I found this early on and came rushing in with it and found all this great stuff and got lost for a while in boats and selkies and poetry, just a marvelous day today!

What Are Whirlpools?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_123uDqgsIs

This is another GOOD one!

PatH · « **Reply #1340 on:** May 01, 2011, 09:37:22 PM »

Jude, thank you for reminding me of the Eliot; I hadn't thought of it in this context, but of course that's it.

Ginny, I've been wondering about what the sirens looked like too. There seems to be a convention of them being birds with human heads and shoulders, as on the Greek vase. And Atwood's siren complains about "this bird suit" and the "feathery maniacs", her fellow sirens. Hamilton says no one knows what they looked like, because if you got close enough to see them you never came back.

Hamilton also describes how Orpheus saved the Argonauts from the sirens. When the ship first came in hearing distance, Orpheus picked up his lyre and played a song "so clear and ringing that it drowned the sound of those lovely fatal voices."

roshanarose · « **Reply #1341 on:** May 01, 2011, 10:42:07 PM »

Sirens - It seems that throughout antiquity and even relatively modern art Harpies and Sirens have been used interchangeably. Hiowever, there is a theory that originally Harpies became Sirens to fit more into the aesthetics of Classical Greek myth. The Harpies, however, do appear in The Odyssey in the Book about Aeolus. They are "storm winds". Harpies are the winged birds with human heads and birds' feet; the Sirens are the beautiful temptresses. The Harpies appear in Jason and the Argonauts and also torment thre blind king Phineas. The Sirens number three; confusingly I think so do the Harpies. This link should help:

www.theoi.com/Pontios/Harpyiai.html

Jude - I, too, love Mr Prufrock. I always wonder about the peach too. My interpretation, not at all scholarly, had to do with him wondering if he should wear white flannel trousers as Peach stains so badly. One must always avoid wearing white or other light colours while eating peaches and walking.

I have that problem with Laksa, a wonderful Asian soup, but it is quite messy to eat. Although, I admit I don't eat it while walking. If I wear white I usually get laksa all over my continental shelf.

Babi · « **Reply #1342 on:** May 02, 2011, 09:28:45 AM »

It’s become clear from the song of the sirens that these tales were meant to be teaching tools well as entertainment.
“ Sea rovers here, take joy
Voyaging onward,
As from our song of Troy
Greybeard and rower boy
Goeth more learned.”
I learned something new about the sirens, too. “Charmed out of time we see,
No life on earth can be
Hid from our dreaming.”
I see, too, that youngsters could begin their manhood careers as 'rower boy'. The old songs
are still teaching us.

JoanK · « **Reply #1343 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:29:30 PM »

I also always loved "Prufrock", but never associated it with the Odyssey before.

And I had always heard about centerboards, but never knew what they were for.

But I'll stick to my mis-interpretation, and always visualize O balancing on the keel, grasping an upright mast, and windsurfing. Even if it's rediculous, it's glorious!

ginny · « **Reply #1344 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:42:02 PM »

Well if I could fathom (pun intended hahaaha) what a keel is, I'd join you, right now I've got him clinging to a log in the water. hahahaa

I simply can't visualize anything. At all. I mean it's a failing, I can't "see" what a house might look like or a room might look like furnished.

Oh yes let's talk about the peach. How does it go? (Tried to do it from memory, had to look at Jude's; it didn't have the whatever rolled, found it on the internet)

I grow old ... I grow old ...
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.

This can't be because of dress because anybody eating a peach drools it all over them, man, boy, child, baby and the man would be the one more likely to hold the peach out while bent over to avoid drooling all over himself so it can't be associated with being old. And the white flannel comes after the peach.

(I know, I know, but I've waited a long time to discuss this).

I first thought it was false teeth but peaches are normally soft.

It has to be digestion and the trots. An apple would do the job better. Ever since I read that I have avoided peaches if I had to go somewhere. Got to be digestion?

PatH, maybe because of the unattractive bird descriptions that they morphed into fish. It's hard to think of seductive songstresses who look like birds. hahahaa Interesting site on the Harpies, RR, it's even harder to think of them as seductive at all.

Orpheus, poor man. It seems that the singing thing gets a lot of the singers in trouble.

PatH · « **Reply #1345 on:** May 02, 2011, 09:10:51 PM »

The thing that used to confuse me about Prufrock was the "trousers rolled". Finally, someone told me that just meant trousers with cuffs. Apparently at the time the poem was written that was a stuffy old-man style. This must have hopped back and forth a lot since then.

This turn in the discussion gives me a feeble excuse for sharing my favorite lines from "Prufrock".
The first:

"I have measured out my life in coffee spoons."

The tally of all the pointless social events that make up his days. Sometimes when I'm doing something recurrent like setting out the garbage for the once a week collection or paying some once-a-month bills I think of this and wonder if I'm measuring out my life in setting out the trash.

The other, with no lifestyle implications, but I really like it:

"I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floor of silent seas."

PatH · « **Reply #1346 on:** May 02, 2011, 09:59:57 PM »

Barb, it's a good thing you are around to set me straight. I didn't have time to watch the videos until now. Yes, the centerboard case is quite clear. And you can see the keel function very clearly in the Turkish boats. Aren't they lovely, especially the bare wood, where you you see the beauty of the design and they aren't yet painted up to be rich men's toys (though Mrs. Angel looks good to the end). Boats are so beautiful.

But what is the name of that piece of wood that I mistakenly called the keel? In terms of holding the boat together, it seems to be doing the same thing, though it doesn't do anything for lateral stability.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1347 on:** May 02, 2011, 10:45:42 PM »

I have a call into my sister who is on her way home to her house in SC and where her reception is awful so it may be another week before she can get into town for reception - because for the life of me I cannot recall the name of that piece - you want to say it is a beam but we know on a boat the beam is a term used to define the width of the hull from port to starboard - there are so many ways to construct a hull and some do not have at all that center 'beam' for the want of the correct word -

To ask someone it takes more than someone who sails - it takes knowing how the boats are constructed and when I was a teen I helped several ahum young men - it was our (8 of us) way of getting together - anyhow we built a couple of small boats and an airoplane would you believe - using sheets we begged and borrowed from our mothers to stretch and glue over the frame work - which is how using canvas we made one of the boats. The difference the boat we tarred the stretched canvas in place.

I guess the best way to describe a keel is to say it is like a shark's fin only upside down - as if the shark was swimming on its back with its tummy on top.

PatH · « **Reply #1348 on:** May 02, 2011, 11:16:08 PM »

I'll also ask my neighbor tomorrow, if I can catch him and if it's appropriate. He and his 11 year old son just built a 20 foot dory in a yard in Annapolis sort of like that in your video. It's sitting on his porch now, making everything else look small. I don't remember if it has that particular piece of wood. It has a daggerboard, not a centerboard, but I've forgotten the surrounding details, and of course it doesn't have the keel.

I'm really envious of your boat-building experience.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1349 on:** May 03, 2011, 03:03:14 AM »

Haha - she called - my sister got my message before she crossed the bridge - and we laughed with all the old terminology that brought back memories - and yes, the piece even with a centerboard trunk is a keel - it is called an 'inner keel' - there are several different kinds of keels and according to the size of the boat the keel can contain ballast - the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding video shows an inner keel.

And Joan you are fine with your image - I found in my 55 year old Britannica Dictionary an explanation of how boats in the time of Homer had the mast stepped to the boat. I will try to be faithful without necessarily using word for word.

There is a false outer keel that can be retracted in order to pull the boats onto shore - my guess is the false outer keel is like what today we call either a center board or a daggerboard. [Pat just a different shape - narrower and longer - like a dagger] The keel was cambered [means bowed] with a keelson above - the keelson would lay close to the keel but not down on it where it is hogging [bowing] It is to the keelson that the ribs are attached and above the keelson with the attached ribs spaced every 3 feet is a false keel where the mast is stepped.

The first layer of a step is thick 6 inch or more piece of lumber that is attached to this false keel and reaches the sides of the hull - then a series of 4 to 6 or more thinner blocks of wood till the last is just a bit larger than the base of the mast. There were uprights that were decorated with breastwork. When the mast was dropped there were wedges used at the uprights or apron. There was a collar that the mast passed through. The collar was attached to the upper deck or if no cover the gangway and to the false keel. The collar would allow the mast movement with the weight of the sails full of wind while keeping the mast from too much movement that could tip the boat. And then the lines that hold the mast to all four sides of the boat.

According to how low the mast was broken in Homer's story there would be some of the mast upright held in the apron even if the lines holding the collar went slack when the other lines broke.

The story says the broken section of the mast was lashed to the keel but which keel or all three - which sounds to me like a bit of simplified story telling for affect or maybe in translation over the years the exactness was not included or those hearing the story did not need to know the exactness because the article in Britannica does reference Homer's boat along with the specific differences to the Trireme - a Quinqueremes - an Attic vessel and a Corinthian built boat.

Surfing the west wind on a cambered keel with the keelson and false keel still attached along with the breastwork where the mast is stepped with part of the mast wedged in and the remaining broken part of the mast lashed to the whole thing with ribs sticking out on both sides - quite a sight - why not...

If he hangs in the fig tree like a bat - till the mast and keel comes along - he then lets go and plumps into the water alongside the spars - hmmm not spar, which the mast could be called a spar but spars - that says there was rigging attached to this mast that made it through the storm - or spars suggests more than one mast but more likely spars indicates yards or booms which are what the sails are attached.

So whatever - he has - keel and broken mast and spars - he had to have more than one keel since the broken mast still had to be attached and we know that on a Greek boat at the time the mast was stepped onto a false keel below which is a keelson and below that is a cambered keel. Sounds like a pile of lumber that an intrepid soul like O could drift on for 9 days.

JoanK · « **Reply #1350 on:** May 03, 2011, 03:23:59 PM »

wow! I envy your boat-building experience. Did you take it out? did you take the airplane up?

It's not clear whether the mast was "stepped" or laid alongside the keel and lashed together to make a (very narrow) raft. In any case, O made it. If he had 9 lives like a cat, I think he's already used them up.

Babi · « **Reply #1351 on:** May 04, 2011, 08:33:04 AM »

I've never been on anything bigger than a ferry, and my sea-faring knowledge is pretty much
limited to reading things like the 'Hornblower' series.
Umm, ....where were we?

ginny · « **Reply #1352 on:** May 04, 2011, 10:23:54 AM »

We're between Sylla

and Charybdis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_123uDqgsIs

or a literal rock and a hard place. ahhahaaa

ginny · « **Reply #1353 on:** May 04, 2011, 10:36:04 AM »

I'll tell you you just cannot get away from the Odyssey. Last night I was reading up on Naples and it's just absolutely full of it, and it's strange things. For instance (this is Naples and Pompeii, the Knopf Guides), I bought it for the stunning art it has in it, but for instance, did you know that the Tarantella, the dance, is related to the Odyssey?

Quote

Legend has it that this was created by the Graces in order to seduce Ulysses after his recent escape from the spell of the sirens' song.

I about fell out of the bed where I was innocently reading before sleep. hahaha

And THEN there's Baia, which I love so naturally I'm reading up to see if there is anything I missed and behold:

Quote

From the 2nd century BC to the end of the Roman Empire, Baiae, named after Baios, the navigator of Odysseus, who died near these shores, was the most fashionable result on the Bay of Napes.

Who is Baios?? Is this book just making this stuff up?

I just loved that description of the passage thru Scylla and Charybdis and in both that and the evading of the Sirens, O has used his wits (or followed Circe's wits and instructions, it's a good thing he's got her, she's done more for him than any of the others except I guess Athene, where IS she by the way?), but in these he's definitely using his wits.

Now we come to the cattle with the spiral horns (I love that, let me go see what I've got on that) of Helios, and here we encounter a major caveat.

I think this little episode is quite telling, what did you think about it? First O tries to skirt around even GOING there (and remember this is the last of the books in which he speaks to US directly) so as to... avoid the entire thing? He's using his wits but it's the MEN who talk him into landing, is that right? Then how many times does he try to get them NOT to bother the cows? And what happenns? Zeus is avenging his son Poseidon here so the weather kicks up again, who in this must we blame for the plight of the sailors and O at this point?

Frybabe · « **Reply #1354 on:** May 04, 2011, 01:23:40 PM »

I was particularly taken by the cattle story. Zeus knew exactly what he was doing in creating such bad weather as to force O and his men to stay on the island so long. They ran out of food and were near starving before they decided to defy the prophecy in order to survive. The crew had no choice. They were dead men either way.

Babi · « **Reply #1355 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:12:40 AM »

Too true, FRYBABE. DOOMED! plays a large part in this story.

You all recall how we discussed Odysseus emotionalism, his ...and other Greeks.. easy tears? I came across this excerpt from Arrian, a Greek historian to whom we are indebted for much we know about Alexander the Great.
Alexander had successfully pursued his conquest of much of the known world, up to the borders of India. At this point, his troops refused to go any further. Alexander was most
upset of course, attempting to persuade them unsuccessfully. He withdrew to his tent for three days, refusing to see anyone, hoping their love for him would bring about a change of heart. He made a sacrifice with a view to crossing the river, but the omens were unfavorable.
To quote Arrian: “Then at last he called together the most senior of the Companions and in particular his closest friends, and said to the army that as eerything indicated that they should withdraw he had decided to turn back. There was a shout of joy such as a motley crowd of men would raise in their delight, most of them burst into tears. Some flocked to the king’s tent, calling down blessings on Alexander because he had allowed himself to be defeated by them alone....” I found the story very moving.

ginny · « **Reply #1356 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:25:52 AM »

Me, too, Frybabe!

You have to wonder about these gods. It seems that Zeus, who could have destroyed them all, leaves just enough rope so they get to make the decision, will they be foiled by temptation or will they not? And how will THEY get out of it because I'm not seeing any god assisting O here with the keel and the spars thing?

Or do you all?

Babi what a good point!!

Who gets your sympathy here? Who is the first to buckle? I am beginning to feel sorry for the men actually, but why did O not tell them from the get go, what the issue WAS? Did anybody go with O into Hades? I can't remember, would that person then know or is O on his own there AND here? I'm not seeing him confiding in many, is he?

Then possibly if he HAD, they could have avoided the entire spiral horned cows entirely?

Food sure makes a big splash in this! I wonder when roasted meat first became the style, does anybody know? Just in reading this I found self drooling for saltimbocca of all things. I found three recipes for it and the original one on all recipes.com (a wonderful APP with a rotating dial) has 610 calories!!! I've lost interest. hahaha

But just as in Pearl Buck's books the food seems to play a big part here. So many themes in what seemed to be almost an action/ adventure movie.

What are your thoughts on the overarching (love that word) theme here? What IS the overarching theme? hahahaa Babi adds DOOMED to the list, we've got going home, wits over...brawn, what else?

Listen how could Homer show something for a hero to triumph OVER unless he threw in all these natural challenges?

Dana · « **Reply #1357 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:48:11 AM »

I do wonder about their vegetables--endless feasts of roasted chines (whatever they are) and thigh bones wrapped in fat, fresh bread on silver platters, wine by the gobletful--BUT NO VEGGIES.

Frybabe · « **Reply #1358 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:58:25 PM »

Dana,

Just the kind of meal my BF likes. He thinks anything green is poison. He will eat cole slaw, corn on the cob and potatos. That is pretty much it. Oh yes, and cucumber salad (the cream sauce kind).

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1359 on:** May 05, 2011, 01:05:24 PM »

Butchering an animal, even as small as a Lamb is a lot of work - without refrigeration you know that most meat was salted and made into a sausage like mixture with lots of herbs - so to have enough folks assembled to immediately roast fresh part of the animal I can't help think was special and like today a story that would include the menu is to set a scene - so that talking about a meal that included the peas and carrots is seldom part of the story where as the meal described would be special.

As to the veggies themselves - that takes farmers - growing veggies and ground fruit takes water - this part of the world has very dry scrubby land and so a farmer, who needs to make his labor pay is probably more than likely to grow barley, wheat and millet; which can be stored and made into bread.

There would be no elaborate dishes since there is no recipe books - only memory and watching what the older generation did with food - However, even today when you look at a typical French Meal the veggies are most often a course separate from the meat course and most everyday meals that included veggies was a thick soup. Again, no refrigeration the veggies do not stand up very well in the heat and this is a part of the world similar to our climate that many of the old recipes include hot peppers not only because they grow easily in hot dry poor soil conditions but they hid the taste of food not refrigerated.

Frybabe the Greeks would not have known about corn till after 1492 - Corn is from the Americas...

News:

Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The (Read 493825 times)