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May 9-----Book  XIII:  Home at Last!    

The Homecoming of Odysseus
Claude Lorrain
1644

Of course this looks nothing like the scene that Homer painted but gives us what impression we'd like to think when we think homecoming, the reality was quite starkly different.

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus is put ashore in Ithaca
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)

   
The Phaiakians put Odysseus ashore in Ithaca, where he is met by Athene:

It was into this bay they rowed their ship. They knew of it beforehand.
The ship, hard-driven, ran up onto the beach for as much as
half her length, such was the force the hands of the oarsmen
gave her. They stepped from the strong-benched ship out onto the dry land,
and first they lifted and carried Odysseus out of the hollow
hull, along with his bed linen and shining coverlet,
and set him down on the sand. He was still bound fast in sleep. Then
they lifted and carried out the possessions, those which the haughty
Phaiakians, urged by great-hearted Athene, had given him, as he
set out for home, and laid them next to the trunk of the olive,
all in a pile and away from the road, lest some wayfarer
might come before Odysseus awoke, and spoil his possessions.

Then they themselves turned back toward home.

Odysseus asleep laid on his own coast
John Flaxman
1805

The great seafaring ship
Was closing in fast when Poseidon slapped it
With the flat of his hand and turned it to stone
Rooted in the seafloor...lines 165-70)

just touching base to say how wonderfully much I am learning,
recipes  
boating
poetry & quotes "I measure out my life in coffee spoons"-love that phrase
not to mention Odysseus and his journey
I just wonder as a few have mentioned -why does he seem to keep some of his knowledge hidden thus it seems setting the others up for failure as they don't know the repercussions of their actions!

Deb

[JoanK]

Good question, DEB. It's frustrating to read, isn't it.

Lombardo's introduction made an interesting point. He was talking about the sheme of accents in The Odyssey. (Is that the right term? you know duh DUH duh DUH). He saidevery line started and ended in a fixed pattern, but the middle could vary all over the place. He compared it to Greek storytelling. In the beginning, we're told what will happen. In the middle, the character (in this case O) does everything he can to avoid his fate. But no matter what he does, the end is always the same.

No veggies! I noticed that to. And also in stories of Medieval England. Loads of meat and fruit, but no veggies!

[Frybabe]

Right Barb. In fact, the only one of the four I mentioned that originated in the Mediterranean area is cabbage. Potatoes also came from the Americas and cucumber comes from India. It surprises me to see that cabbage came from the Mediterranean area. I thought it would have come from farther inland with cooler climates or from China. Head cabbage like we use today apparently didn't exist in Greek and Roman times; theirs was a leafy type.

[Dana]

Now, I have a delightful Roman cookbook that my husband found someplace .  many of the recipes are from a guy called Apicius and the vegetables include cabbage, kale, cauliflower, sprouts, lettuce , endive, onions, leek , asparagus,French beans, artichokes, radishes, cucumber, turnips, beetroot, carrots, parsnips, pumpkin, courgettes and as a spice the famous laserpicium, now extinct thanks to over use by the Romans.  I expect many of these veggies were available in ancient Greece, too.

[BarbStAubrey]

Dana looks like according to several sites the veggies available in Ancient Greece follow closely to your list

I thought this was an interesting bit of information from the first site linked below

All the meals in ancient Greece revolved around their religious beliefs and philosophical theories. The Greeks never consumed the meat of a domesticated animal, as they considered it to be barbaric. The only meat that was consumed was that of the animals that were either first scarified to god, or were hunted in the wild.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/ancient-greek-foods.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_cuisine#Foods

http://www.heavenly-greek-islands.com/ancient-greek-food.html

[roshanarose]

JoanK - I think what you may be referring to is iambic meter/  After a couple of glasses of white wine and a big day I won't attempt to describe it in too much detail.  But it is something like that example you gave DUH duh DUH, and is used for literary effect etc.  I always though that Greek was difficult enough to learn, rather than worrying about iambic meters and such.  You may like to do a search to check if iambic meter is what Lombardo is referring to in the example you gave.  

This is from wiki - their linguistic section is very good imho.

The most important Classical meter is the dactylic hexameter, the meter of Homer and Virgil. This form uses verses of six feet. The word dactyl comes from the Greek word daktylos meaning finger, since there is one long part followed by two short stretches.[2] The first four feet are dactyls (daa-duh-duh), but can be spondees (daa-daa). The fifth foot is almost always a dactyl. The sixth foot is either a spondee or a trochee (daa-duh). The initial syllable of either foot is called the ictus, the basic "beat" of the verse. There is usually a caesura after the ictus of the third foot. The opening line of the Æneid is a typical line of dactylic hexameter:

Armă vĭ | rumquĕ că | nō, Troi | ae quī | prīmŭs ăb | ōrīs
("I sing of arms and the man, who first from the shores of Troy. . . ")

This particular meter can turn people off who wish to recite Homer's work.  Little wonder!  Obviously your AG (or Latin) needs to be better than excellent.

[Babi]

 Dana, I'm pretty sure the chines are the shinbones. I suppose they would be
easier to deal with than those huge thighbones.  I believe BARB is right on
when she says most meals with veggies would be thick soups. In fact, back
when meals were cooked over an open fire, one-pot meals were the standard fare. Porridge for breakfast, stews the rest of the day, and of course, whole grain breads.  In fact, those old breads were often a meal in themselves, containing multiple grains, lentils, nuts and herbs.

 Odysseus did warn the crew about not eating Helios' cattle, but if you're
starving, what other recourse do you have? On other occasions, since there was
no possible way to avoid what lay ahead, telling his men of what awaited them
could serve no purpose except to terrify them.  The theme of DOOM! again.

[Dana]

Well, you prompted me to look it up, Babi, and interestingly it says the word chine comes from the old German shina which means shinbone, but the word means backbone, or a piece of meat including the backbone!  Not the same as shin which is surely the long bone between knee and ankle, the tibia ( had to get my Grey's anatomy--have messed up my bookcase now....imagine not remembering tibia after all that anatomy I once did....)  So the chines might be that nice piece of meat the tenderloin (especially if they wrapped it in fat to roast)....what do you think?

[BarbStAubrey]

You have to wonder if these stories are embedded in our DNA - The Sirens remind me of the Mexican myth of La Llorona.

A few years back - oh it must be 20 years ago now - in Lockhart, a small community south east of Austin surrounded by ranch land, in class there were a couple of Mexican girls who were convinced La Llorona was in the girl's rest room - it got so that none of the Mexican girls would use the restroom. Their bladder not big enough to last the day - which they tried - they were staying home from school - the school had to close down - they could not get about a quarter of the student population, all Mexican American girls to use the rest room they were so frightened - the parents of these girls were just as frightened and would not cooperate with the school - the school board had to arrange to close down the rest room and have a new facility built by September.

La Llorona is a women ghost dressed in white who lives near water, usually lakes, rivers and streams while wailing she is looking for children to replace her own. - sounds like wailing myrtle - however this is a myth that is far older and has more than one version - the most popular versions are -  

When the Spanish arrived in Mexico, they were impressed by the beauty of the Indian children. The Spanish took the children and gave them to their wives. Some of the Indian women killed their children in order to keep the Spaniards from taking them. La Llorona is one such woman. She is now searching constantly for her children, whose faces she sees in all children. She kills the children to be united with her own. Rather than abandon their children to the cruelty of the Spaniards, Indian mothers chose to escape their own helplessness over the situation by deciding their children’s fate themselves.

Another that is more common: La Llorona, a female figure represented in varying Mexican and Chicano myths in which she bears the children of her lover, [usually two children] only to be abandoned by him for a woman of his own high rank. La Llorona,  in a fit of rage, revenge, and/or insanity, drowns her children in the river, and is then doomed to roam eternally, weeping, looking for her dead children -- or perhaps ones to replace them. In Spanish, llorar means “to cry.”  Thus, La Llorona is the “Weeping Woman.” She is crying for the lover who has abandoned her, the children she has drowned. La Llorona is often used by parents to “coerce obedience from misbehaving children” because she is searching for other children to murder.

[JudeS]

The version of La Llorona I learned about from Mexican friends is as follows:

La Llorona is a figure from Aztec Myth who is known to lure men with SIREN SONGS.She then turns them into stone as punishment for their evil ways.
There are many, many known versions of this most popular of Mexican folk ballad. I wonder how it transmogrified into a horror that attacks young girls who, as I imagine, are rather sinless?
I also wonder how the idea of Sirens got into Aztec Legend?
I don't imagine that Aztec legend got into Greek myth. Curious.

[JoanK]

The story of La Llorona in the bathroom reminds me of Moaning Millie from the Harry Potter books. Although she was not a mother.

[BarbStAubrey]

Jude hadn't heard of turning folks to stone -  interesting the many versions - I bet the surrounding landscape has something to do with how the story is wrapped into the community culture - Aztec - interesting - but then that is why I wonder if some things are some ancient knowledge that we are born with - I know sounds crazy but I just read a book on DNA and how if we can inherit all the aspects of our ancestors we can also inherit parts of the way their brain functions and the books went as far as suggesting we can inherit memory.

IF this is true than all we have to do is look at the history of man - and see where it goes - there was that guy who had a TV program and large thick book where he traced the flow of humanity using DNA - along the way of our populating the earth DNA is carried with each generation and if some along the way inherit bits and pieces of past memory that could explain a lot.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/12/09/us/20061210_DNA_GRAPHIC.html

[Frybabe]

This all reminds me of reincarnation, past life regression, Edgar Cayce, etc.  The brain is a wonderful and still mysterious thing. Who knows, it might be possible for a very few people to recall inherited memory. I think most of them think, though, that it is memories of their own past lives, not ancestral memories.

[Babi]

I have no idea, DANA. I still, rarely, come across the word 'chine' used in reference
to the shinbone. Or at least it appears to do so in context.

 BARB, inheriting memory might explain one or two of my own odd bits.  

 Hmm, it's Saturday.  Are we about ready for Book 13, JOAN, GINNY?  It's got me exasperated and eager to speak out.

[Gumtree]

Inherited memory - is this what is referred to as 'tribal' memory that I think Jung called the 'collective unconscious' .  more recently there are references to 'genetic memory' which theorise that our ancestor's memories are imbedded in our DNA and genetically passed on through subsequent generations. There appears to be a lot of work done in this area in the study of the inherited memory held by birds and bees which the studies purport to show that the knowledge of the habits is imbedded in their DNA- so if the birds and bees have genetic memory in their DNA why not humans. The big task is for us to recognise the memories and be able to release them.

I'm behind with the reading but hope to catch up over this weekend -

[ginny]

Oh man, what great posts, I want you all to know last night I had no end of nightmares on the chine thing, woke up in a panic, it seemed this meat discussion had me reliving  the Odyssey  meat/ sacrifice/ chine thing but in NYC, was doing a modern Odyssey, on the one hand it made me laugh because one could see that one was reliving it, but on the other hand one was stuck in it and it was most strange.

I  also had a giant royal wedding going on,  which included this meat thing, down a subway tunnel with the grossest stuff to eat presented as a delicacy you ever saw,  so funny.

Wow, don't think your posts go unread haaa.

Babi, yes, let's move on. I looked ahead and behold! Chapter 13 (could it be any  shorter?) is  called in Fagles (If I could find Lombardo I'd quote it) Ithaca at Last!

Chapter 13 has you exasperated?  OH boy! More drama, this is better than the Real Housewives of NYC.

Let's go for it, I'm dismayed how far 13 is in Fagles, half way through.  

At last,  the famous homecoming!!  But first more banqueting.

That was a good point JoanK on the middle of the Odyssey made in the Lombardo introduction!

PatH, have you had a chance to corner your neighbor?

And in 13  O stops talking to us, because it's only 9-12 that he narrates from his own POV. Let's do 13 for Monday, what do you all say?

You wouldn't believe what I've just eaten in my dreams. hashahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa LOVE the discussion here! You've all made such good points, just look at them, vegetables, rhyme scheme, sacrificial meals, not telling the men of the dangers and the possibly repercussions of same, La Llorona (had never heard of her), collective memory, DNA, inherited memory,  reincarnation (just realized what that word actually means),  the tibia, chine, what was that character in Harry Potter? Moaning Myrtle? Or something, it does remind you of that, doesn't it? How strange the tie in.

This is a good question from Babi: Odysseus did warn the crew about not eating Helios' cattle, but if you're
starving, what other recourse do you have?

He did finally warn them when they said they were tired and must turn in to the island to rest.  He did not tell them and wanted to avoid the island but they were tired. He didn't mention Scylla either but excused that by saying how can you fight such a thing? So he's making executive decisions as he should as leader.  And I am sure they were tired, after all that, , and that Eurylochus, what does his name mean, he's certainly got a lot to answer for here, he says You must be made of iron from head to foot but we need a break.

No, let's give way
To the dark night, set out our supper here.
Sit tight by our swift ship and then at daybreak
board and launch her, make for open sea! (Fagles).

So it was to be an overnighter.  It makes logical sense after the Sirens and Scylla and Charybdis. But I think perhaps here O should have prevailed and sailed to the next one, they could sleep on the ship as well as the land.

And here you notice this time O did not fall for the flattery or did he? He didn't insist on his own way. That's new.

And of course we know what happened, here comes  the

"howling, demopnic gale, shroudling over in thunderheads
the earth and sea at once--- and night swept down from the sky."

Having just seen on TV  the absolutely terrible devastation in Alabama this seemed quite alive.


So then he says Friends we've food and drink aplenty aboard the ship---
keep your hands off all these herds  or we will pay the price!

But a month later, marooned in the  Zeus caused storm,  they were hungry and all the supplies ran out.

And so O gives in to sleep and Eurylochus again says who wants to starve? Not me.

Why couldn't they just sail away? Were they out hunting in all the fury of the storm?

And didn't you love the Sci Fi element here?

the hides vegan to crawl, the meat, both raw and roasted,
bellowed out on the spits, and we heard a noise
like the moan of lowing oxen.

And yet they stayed 6 more days and on the 7th the wind dropped.

So Babi's question is important, what else could they have done, really? If they were boy scouts I bet they could have found something. If the cows are eating there has to be grass? Cows eat legumes, right? And there should be seaweed (is there seaweed in Greece? or wherever they are? I realize that's an ignorant question but I don't know.)

I kind of liked Eurylochus's reasoning, if Zeus wants to smash us up, I'd rather that than starve to death here.

Were there no trees or grass or anything?

Spark Notes says here it's a question of goals and obstacles and O can't avoid Scylla and Charybdis tho he would like to have.  He has no choice but to navigate a path thru them (twice).

They say "but many of the obstacles are temptations."

I don't personally see the cattle of Helios at temptations because they were stuck there and starving. I do see the choice to GO there a temptation and here again this  Eurylochus has a lot to answer for. The Sirens are obstacles and temptations both but O wins that one by following advice.

Spark Notes  says "some scholars believe the straits between Scylla and Charybdis represent the Straits of Messina, which lie between Sicily and Italy....But Homeric geography is notoriously problematic. ...it is entirely possible that Homer neither knew nor cared about the location of the straits that inspired his Scylla and Charybdis episode---or that they were simply the creation of his and his predecessors' imaginations."

Here are the questions from Temple we haven't addressed:

Why doesn't O tell his crew all of Kirke's warnings?
Does he follow all her advice himself?
How is his crew like the suitors back in Ithaca?
 Has Odysseus' behavior changed after his experiences in Hades?

How would you answer any one of those? Does he follow all  Circe's advice himself?

When did he  not?

Has his behavior changed? I think it has. I know it's fashionable to say he does not change in the Odyssey, I think he has here. He listens to Eurylochus when he knows better, why? I think seeing Achilles and hearing him say he sort of regrets his death as a hero, he'd rather be out plowing the simplest field than there in Hades AS a hero has sobered O. I am not seeing the ME ME ME thing here, he seems "a sadder and a wiser man," to quote the other great sea tale, Coleridge, and I think it shows.

Do you all agree or disagree?

But each time he's listened here, he's sorry later on. When the crew listens to HIM they turn out OK  since he's started to change but when he listens to THEM it's bad news.

How is his crew like the suitors? They sure abuse the hospitality of where they go, killing the cows is as bad as their behavior in the Cyclops cave.

And he  on Monday, he arrives Home at Last!  And we've got half a book left. Things are not how he left them, what an exciting tale this is, I hate for it to end.

What thoughts do you have on anything so far?

[ginny]

OH my goodness, who knew? Who knew? The things you can learn innocently reading a book.

Seaweed in the Mediterranean? It's a MODERN curse! Check out NOVA:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/algae/chronology.html

[roshanarose]

Ginny - A very interesting article.  It has spread very far, very quickly here, in Australia.  This snippet in the article you added alarmed me ...

Researchers discover that the aquarium strain is genetically close to a native strain of C. taxifolia that occurs off the Australian coast at Moreton Bay, which appears to be the original source of the alga that was cloned to form the aquarium strain.

[Frybabe]

I saw a program a while back about the Mediterranean which had a segment about the algae and how and where it is spreading. I believe they were able to trace it back to the source area of infection in the Mediterranean. Pretty interesting.

[ginny]

Me either, RoshanaRose and Frybabe, I thought seaweed was natural, who knew?

But now we're HOME!! I mean a Homecoming, but it's not as he (or we?) envisioned! Home at last!

What a book, it's got everything.

First off we've got the Phaecians and their amazing ship which went so fast with him asleep that it drove  up on the land half way the length of the ship, what a picture and him asleep and laid out.

Next we've got Athene in disguise again, where has SHE been? She's taking all the credit for his successes so far, and he's giving it to her but he starts out lying to her big time as he doesn't recognize her or where he is, due to her spells.

Now why would he lie, one wonders?

Now she's going to disguise HIM, and he agrees,  he says iif she had not been there he'd have met the same end as Agamemnon, he'd have waltzed right into  murder.

But the circumstances are not the same, are they? This shows us how powerful this horde of suitors really is, they can, being younger (? are they?) easily overpower one man. This is why she got Telemachus out to the safety of Menelaus, now she's going after him and O is to go to the swineherd, talk about  humble and a comedown and he's disguised as an old beggar.

Things are heating up here, what excitement!

That's very handy, that disguise.

So we've got deceit and lies, cleverness rather than brawn, disguises, and oh my goodness Poseidon, gee that gave me chills:

Poseidon (Lombardo):

I want to smash that beautiful Phaecian ship
As it sails for home over the misty sea
Smash it, so that they will stop this nonsense
Once and for all, giving men safe passage!

I have GOT to find that old black and white photo of the ship turned to rock in the old Latin book, it's startling.


And that's just what he does, but the Phaecians don't understand it till Alcinous repeats the prophesy he heard his own father give.

So here we have once again a series of reminders:

...we have the importance of prophesy coming true and we've had quite a bit of it to date, the last being that of Tiresias... or wait, I'm wrong, they went back to Circe so she's the last one with the  Sirens and the cattle of Helios.
...we have lying and wits and going from the most incredible presents and gifts to the most humble of estates, going to stay with the swineherd.
---we have the Nostos or Homecoming at last and it's nothing we could ever have imagined, is it? Is this the way you'd like to see YOUR homecoming?
---we have the dates at last: the suitors have been there for 3 years, that makes more sense than 10!

So what surprised you or struck YOU the most in this chapter?

Babi says it exasperated her. Why?

Homecomings are a loaded possibility. We have so many hopes and dreams of what was. Are they always as we found them? After 20 years would they be?

I once took my children on a drive thru Pennsylvania where I grew up, starting in Philadelphia and then to Bensalem township and then to Moorestown NJ where I lived from the 8th grade on....and it had been a long time, since my parents had moved here to  SC.

It had been about 27 years I guess, giving them time to be old enough and so forth. Well the first thing that happened was I got lost.

I could not FIND the row house in Philadelphia where I grew up. At all.  A lovely elderly lady passing by on the street smiled, I should have asked her, but am too shy. Stupid me. She probably dated from the time I lived there or might even have beenone of our old  neighbors! All those years later, stupid shyness.

 I did find the house in Buck's County but I got hopelessly lost trying to find the one in Moorestown NJ. ALL the markers, the landmarks, had changed. I finally stopped at a filling station which was not 5 miles from the town and asked and the gentlemen had no idea where Moorestown was! This was the year in which it was voted the Number 1 place to live in the US!!  FINALLY we came in from the long side of town and I had no idea, again, even how to find the house. The children said, Mama did you really live here? hahaha


Well one wonders. That actually happened to me twice, along with a friend the second time who said the same thing, are you sure you lived here?

So I can  relate here to O not recognizing his surroundings after 20 years and I had no Athene to help. ahahaha   And of course I was going on memory and reality was quite different, things HAD changed as they would in an urban environment, the old landmarks were, a lot of them, gone.

But it's the people not the places we think of in "homecoming," and some movies treat this amazingly well, that Four Christmases is priceless in this regard.

We grow up, we change, do the people left behind change? Have you ever had a "homecoming," and did it turn out as you hoped?

It's amazing how much SMALLER everything looks.

Here also O shows restraint again, I think I'm going to have to vote that his character has evolved. No strutting in and saying come one come all, I'll take any of you on! (Why could he not do that armed with powerful Athene?)

What do YOU think about this Homecoming at Last chapter? I've got some stunning art on it, hold on.... have got to find that boat turned into stone thing.

OH and why, do you think, we are reminded we've been reading a flashback here?

Two drachmas for your thoughts, this is an exciting chapter!

[Babi]

  Okay, on to Book 13, titled by my translator as "One More Strange Island".
    Lord, can’t these people ever stop their all-day feasting?  They rise at dawn to load up a ship ready for Odysseus’ departure, but does he leave?  No.  First they must spend another day feasting!  I don’t understand.
     (I do note, tho’, an indication that the Greeks considered their kings to be divinely appointed.  Alkinoos is referred to as “the gods’ anointed’,  who made offerings on behalf of his people.)
 But,  I digress.  It is not until evening that Odysseus finally sets sail, the “hour that brings fulfillment to the longing of my heart”.    I well remember how Odysseus and his crew were out on the sea only during the day,  pulling into shore when it grew dark...if at all possible.  But these hardy island seamen are not in the least worried about night sailing, which I suppose may be attributed to their ships’ magical ability to steer themselves.
  Or, I wonder, could it simply be a matter of waiting for the tide to go out?
It's so easy to read too much into a story.

[ginny]

So you were exasperated by yet another meal! Instead of leaving with the dawn he spends the day feasting!

OK in addition to getting him snookered so he'd ride unconscious to his destination (and not see their magic?) Spark Notes says that:

One of the most important cultural values in the Odyssey is that of xenia, a  Greek concept encompassing the generosity and courtesy shown ot those who are far from home.....Odysseus's journey takes place in a world in which vast swaths of uninhabited land separate human civilizations. ....The code of hospitality operated as a linchpin that allows individuals such as Odysseus to undertake these kinds of journeys at all. ....the Phaecian royalty prove their worth to Odysseus by showering him with selfless generosity and kindness. Within the Odyssey, adherence to the code functions as a kind of imperfect currency. If one acts in accordance with the rules, one will generally, but not always, be rewarded. "

And that's kind of the sad thing about it, they do help but it turns on them. Ol Poseidon is angry and so Zeus says do what you want and he does. But I noticed also Alcinous saying how they had to group together and levy a tax was it so they could afford this generosity.  And Poseidon says "And the Phaecians, yet, my own flesh and blood!" (somewhere around 130-135, Lombardo).

[ginny]

But I found it! And I am so proud of finding this old thing and isn't it dramatic? This is from an old old Latin book and they didn't apparently have the depth of pixels or something that we do now, so it's not of good quality  and is on yellowed page but:

They label this as:

The ship of the Phaecians that brought Ulysses home was turned into a rocky island-- and here it is, so they say, near the island of Corfu in the Adriatic.

Going to put that in the heading too!

[Dana]

Well, the thing that delighted me most about this chapter was the description of Zeus as diplomat.  No thunderbolt throwing here, he smoothes over his brother's ruffled feelings......
"are you not always free to take reprisal?
Act as your wrath requires and as you will."

but then,  when Poseidon wants to turn the ship to stone and landlock the port, Zeus "says benignly", go ahead, turn the ship to stone, BUT "throw no mountain round the seaport city."

And Poseidon happily agrees.

I just love these little psychological bits (for want of a better word, I don't know what to call them--like when Telemachus is rude to his mother because he's just got a boost to his ego, and Helen comes down to join the men with all her bits and pieces and takes over the show......)

[JoanK]

I love that picture! You can really see how the island could have been a sailboat.

Late with my reading. Back when I've read 13. What is Homer going to do with a whole half a book in Ithaca?

[Frybabe]

I love Pope's poetry in this chapter.

At the beginning:

     Whatever toils the great Ulysses pass'd,
     Beneath this happy roof they end at last;
     No linger now from shore to shore to roam,
     Smooth seas and gentle winds invite him home.
     But hear me Princes! whom these walls inclose,
     For whom my chanter sings: and goblet flows
     With wine unmix'd (an honour due to age,
     To cheer the grave, and warm the poet's rage);

I especially like the last two lines 
Then there is this:

     Thus with spread sails the winged galley flies;
     Less swift an eagle cuts the liquid skies;
     Devine Ulysses was her sacred load,
     A man, in wisdom equal to a god!

Oh, so now O is wise? Do you think he as gained wisdom in his travels and travails?

I am at the passage where Athena is chastising O for telling her a fib and not recognizing her or his own country.

     Oh still the same Ulysses! (she rejoined)
     In useful craft successfully refined!
     Artful in speech, in action, and in mind!
     Sufficed it not, that thy long labours pass'd,
     Secure thou seest thy native shore at last?
     But this to me? who, like thyself, excel
     In arts of counsel and dissembling well;
     To me? whose wit exceeds the powers divine,
     No less than mortals are surpass'd by thine.
     Knows't thou not me; who made they life my care,
     Through ten years' wandering, and through ten years war;

     
Great stuff!

     

[JudeS]

Frybabe-
Do I think O. has attained wisdom  in his travels?
He would be a poor hero and protaganist if he remained impervious to all he has been through. However we may not agree on what exactly the word wisdom means in this context.
He is not perfect nor will he ever be. However he has lost most ,if not all , of his naivety. He is still a swashbuckler but a more prudent and cunning one.

But what I thought of as a question refers to Penelope.  How old do you think she is? I figure at least 35. How old are the suitors? I can't believe that there are so many unmarried men of her age around. Are they much younger than she? Is Penelope a "Cougar"? What was the accepted age of marriage in Greece? Are the suitors closer to her son's age of 20 ?

Perhaps some of these questions will be answered in the  upcoming chapters or perhaps some of you know the answers.
Another question is-Were the suitors interested inPenelope as an attractive wife orsimply pursuing her wealth?

[PatH]

Frybabe's, quote from Pope:

Oh still the same Ulysses! (she rejoined)
     In useful craft successfully refined!
     Artful in speech, in action, and in mind!
     Sufficed it not, that thy long labours pass'd,
     Secure thou seest thy native shore at last?
     But this to me? who, like thyself, excel
     In arts of counsel and dissembling well;
     To me? whose wit exceeds the powers divine,
     No less than mortals are surpass'd by thine.
     Knows't thou not me; who made they life my care,
     Through ten years' wandering, and through ten years war;

This is a great opportunity for showing the extremes of translation.  Here's Lombardo:

"Only a master thief, a real con artist,
Could match your tricks--even a god
Might come up short.  You wily bastard,
You cunning, elusive, habitual liar!
Even in your own land you weren't about
To give up the stories and sly deceits
That are so much a part of you.
Never mind about that though.  here we are,
The two shrewdest minds in the universe,
You far and away the best man on earth
In plotting strategies, and I famed among gods
For my clever schemes.  Not even you
Recognized Pallas Athena, Zeus' daughter,
I who stand by you in all your troubles
And who made you dear to all the Phaeacians.

Wow! What a difference!Which does anyone like better?

[roshanarose]

Ginny - I love your pic of the petrified ship.  This island is close by the coast of Corfu (Kerkyra), said to be the home of the Phaecians.  We know that to plot Odyssey's sea adventures to "real" places is extremely difficult.  In this case, in particular, I am somewhat confused.  

Corcyra (Kerkyra) is actually North of Ithaca.  I remember noting a while back in these pages that it would be extremely unusual that Arete and Alcinous had not heard of Odysseus and his exploits, as Kerkyra is very close to Ithaca and word would have travelled there re Odysseus and the Trojan War.  So if the small island of Palaiokastritsas (the island said to resemble the petrified ship) was near the Phaecians home, then that obviously means that when Nausicaa and Odysseus met he had actually drifted (if that's the right word) right past Ithaca, as he would have to have been heading North to land on Palaiokastritsas. That is assuming he was sailing in the Ionian Sea.  If he was sailing in the Adriatic, then it is a whole new ball game.  

There probably isn't any proof that this theory is true, as the words South, North only apply to winds in The Odyssey, and not directions as we know them. I have always had the idea in the back of my head that the island of the Phaecians was Crete, specifically Knossos, which had very advanced technology compared to many other islands of the Bronze Age.  Or possibly even Santorini, which many have said was the ancient Atlantis.  

Comments would be most welcome.  Thanks.

]

[Gumtree]

PatH: Not sure which I like best - but here's  Albert Cook's version which seems to lie somewhere between the two posted :
Lines 291 -302 -

"Cunning would he be and deceitful, who could overreach you
In various wiles, and even if a god should confront you.
Versatile minded wretch, insatiate in wiles, you would not
Cease from deceits though you are in your own land,
Or from fraudulent stories that from the ground up are dear to you.
Come, let us say no more of this, as both of us are skilled
In shrewdness, since you are by far the best of mortals
In plans and in stories, and I among all the gods
Am famed for planning and shrewdness, and you did not know
Pallas Athene, daughter of Zeus, who always stands
Beside you and guards you in all sorts of troubles
And made you beloved by all of the Phaeacians".

[Babi]

 Athena is back!   It appears that we all enjoyed her tirade at Odysseus.
  She first appears as a shepherd, but soon switches into a woman right before O’s eyes,  so obviously she is dispensing with concealment for the moment.  Perhaps she wants him to be in no doubt as to who is berating him when she says,
              “Whoever gets around you must be sharp and guileful as a snake;  even a god might bow to you in ways of dissimulation.  “You!  You chameleon!  Bottomless bag of tricks!  Here in your own country would you not give your stratagems a rest or stop spellbinding for an instant?”
        Wow! That’s telling him, Lady!  On the other hand, she is apparently responsible for that rich outpouring of gifts from the Phaecians.   She made them ‘befriend you, to a man”.
     I really like that translation.  I can visualize Athena, right up in his face and
'letting him have it'. 

[Frybabe]

Oh, this is a blast.

Pope reads more like a Shakespearean verse. So I do have to do a little mental translation into the modern for a few of the words.

The Lombardo translation reminds me of someone, but I can't pull who out of my mental archives just now. I am thinking some TV or movie character with a smart a** mouth and a big ego. Lombard is very colorful. Was he translating with the younger set in mind? It is almost flip and in your face. Is the whole book like that?

Cook does indeed seem to be taking a more middle of the road approach.

Babi, I love the quote. I can almost see Athena standing there, brow furrowed and looking stern, poking O in the chest with a finger as she says that. Which translation is that?

[JoanK]

Fry: " It is almost flip and in your face. Is the whole book like that?"

Yes!

[ginny]

I can't tell if you dislike the Lombardo or not.  hahaha When I first read the two comparisons I thought well the second  (Lombardo) does not mention the 10 and 10 so it must not be good and then Gum posted the Cook. And he doesn't either.

Here for a 4th comparison is Murray's, lines 291-302. His needs to be more literal as it's a Loeb.

"Cunning must he be and stealthy, who would go beyond you in all kinds of guile, even if it were a god who met you. Stubborn man, crafty in counsel, insatiate in deceit, not even in your own land, it seems, were you to cease from guile and deceitful tales , which you love from the bottom of your heart. But come, let us no longer talk of this, being both well versed in craft, since you are far the best of all men in counsel and in speech, and I among all the gods am famed for wisdom and crafty. Yet you did not know me, Pallas Athene, daughter of Zeus, who always stands by your side and guards you in all toils. Yes and I made you beloved by all the Phaecians."

No 10.

I know there is something wrong with me but I don't see a lot of difference in Murray, Cook, or Lombardo, (although I admit Lombardo  is more flamboyant), the message seems to be the same.

Or is it?  

I love Pope's writing there but I don't see anything in the other three about 10 years? When something like that happens I mistrust the entire rest of the text. Could be just me.

RoshanaRose, I don't know where Phaeacia might have been. The OCCL (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature) also identifies the island of the Phaeacians as Scheria, and says "Some have identified it with Corcyra (modern Corfu)."  So in that they are consistent.  But who knows, you may be right! I do recall we discussed this earlier, but I am totally  geographically challenged, so I have to leave this part of it to others.  "Here be sea monsters" is about my speed, I like things imaginary.

Those are excellent questions, Jude! How old is Penelope?  O has been gone 20 years, so was she 15 when he left?

 I can't remember, was Telemachus born when he left? Was he small or something? That would help in determining her age.

I have  sort of thought the suitors were younger than O. There's no reason O and P have to be the same age. For them to be a threat to O, I would think they would be somewhat younger tho they may be her age. I guess I think that because of the parallel made by Homer with the young Phaecian men challenging him, one of them the son of the host.

Of course I don't know how old Alcinous was either but I assumed he was about O's age. I had not thought of it, but suddenly there does appear another parallel with young and old here. I mean the wisdom of the elders like Alcinous who, when Poseidon turns the ship into stone, and everybody says why? He remembers the elder wisdom passed on to him by his own father. There seems to be a lot of this going on actually which I never noticed.

Babi hahaha where does Athena get off telling O off? Where has SHE been? She says she's stood by his side, oh really?  Where was she with Scylla? Where was she with Carybdis? Where was she in Hades? Where was she with the cattle of Helios? She's worse than he is which to me she admits here.

I liked this, Jude: He would be a poor hero and protaganist if he remained impervious to all he has been through. However we may not agree on what exactly the word wisdom means in this context.
He is not perfect nor will he ever be. However he has lost most ,if not all , of his naivety. He is still a swashbuckler but a more prudent and cunning one.

Well of course here comes a storm (that seems to be my constant refrain so I better get off and look forward to seeing what you've made of 13, so far it's quite invigorating!

[ginny]

Let's talk about Homecomings.  Is this how you pictured O's arrival after all these years and all these struggles? If I had written this book I think I'd have the angels singing. Instead what happens?

Imagine how he feels. He doesn't even,  (at least Moses got to SEE the promised land) get to SEE it and experience it as they sail up to it.

Why do you think this is?

And why does he lie and present himself as something he's not? I can't figure that out.  And what's with Athene and her own disguise and why has (for his own protection lest he go happily in and get killed?) has she caused him not to know where he is?

Further thinking on Jude's questions I really think it's the kingdom they are after and not Penelope, because they desire to kill Telemachus, otherwise there would be no need, they could spirit HER off like Helen and T could stay and rule the country himself.

I did like Dana's remark about the the interplay between Zeus and Poseidon which reminds us they are brothers. That's a super point on his diplomacy, I guess you'd need it. Poor Poseidon, if we made up a list of things HE'S angry about it would fil its own book. I just read something about his Ethiopian trip, he was there out of anger too, he seems to have anger management issues, big time, always being insulted. But then again he didn't get the prize like Zeus did.

I have loved all the different translations and versions and I think this is the first time we've done it this way. We've always SAID bring your translations but we've always HAD one to assign by, this time it's a true bring your own and I love seeing how the different translators have expressed themselves, but are they different? That's the issue. They are different in how they express themselves, for sure, but is the bottom line different?

The thing about translation is:  has the translator captured in the idiom of today what the ancient said in the idiom of his own times and understandings?  Sometimes ancient idioms can't BE translated as we have nothing to compare them to, that's certainly true of Latin and I can't imagine it would not be true of 1000 years before it.

  Do you understand what's happening? And why? That's the issue.

This lying thing has me baffled.  Why did he do that? He did that immediately when he encountered Athene in disguise, why? He thought she was a man, why disguise self and lie?  (She irritates the crap out of me, she says you did not recognize me...well how could he? She's always in disguise, tiresome person)....

Is it because of the need to keep up the "man of constant sorrows" theme to the end? While it's true this is a sort of rocky island and not Philadelphia, 20 years is a long time. Would anything have changed other than the people? We're about to have a poignant reminder of what 20 years can do.

I think this development is quite stunning, it's not what I expected and it may parallel the surprise Agamemnon got when he confidently arrived home. Arriving home then was not what it is now, it was unexpected and amazing. LOOK at O's "homecoming!" His quest, one of two, for nostos: to get home finally realized what what does he get when he opens the homecoming present?

This is some kind of book!  What do you think? What does this SAY indirectly about any homecoming? Anything?

[Babi]

That's the Robert Fitzgerald translation, FRYBABE, and I'm loving it.

 GINNY, I think Athena explains that. She says "For my part, never had I
despaired; I felt sure of your coming home, though all  your men should perish;
but I never cared to fight Poseidon, Father's brother,in his baleful rage with
you for taking his son's eye."  It sounds as though she knew she needed to
pick her fights.

[Frybabe]

Ginny, the Lombardo sounds like something I'd laugh my head off a good bit of the way through. What I thought of when I read it was a play. Not the whole thing; that would take too long. Different scenes or skits, done by the youngsters would be a riot. The kids like something with attitude.

[ginny]

Babi that explains Athene's disappearance, good for you! So she's choosing her battles, she drives me nuts. If we have a contest at the end for "most irritating character," she's got my vote, and here for a bit it looks as if she's got his.

Who, to you all, is most irritating so far?  

Frybabe, oh he's got attitude, I find these differences fascinating! (And he's a Zen master in real life, too.) I can see a high school doing some of these chapters, too, no wonder Colin Firth loved it as a young man!

But I am seeing more in this read this time than I did the last time. We don't have that discussion saved, it was in 1997, but  I am seeing more overarching (love that word) themes than I did initially. His life is still an uphill battle even WHEN he reaches the goal. Surely that's a message there.

What do you all think of Book 13? Is everybody still trying to finish it?

[ginny]

Actually that's not true. I just remembered I've got a loose leaf notebook somewhere with a good many pages of the original Odyssey discussion printed out. I wonder if I can find it.

[kidsal]

Put the treasure by the olive tree so passers-by won't steal it   Passers-by??
O - where did I leave my teasure? Thinks Phaeacians might have stolen it from him -- after they have treated him so well??  He counts it and all is there. 
Why is always a "black" ship?
Do numbers have a meaning -- haven't kept track, but not many even numbers.  As in the Bible, 3, 7, 11, etc.