Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter

"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete. Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962."  - Goodreads Discussion Schedule: January 2-7  Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback) January 8-15      Part II  High Sea  (first third:  p. 71-170 - hardback) -ending  before: "The Cuban Medical students, a hermetic society." January 16-23   Part II  High Sea cont.   (p.171 - 274- hardback) - ending before "The greasers are up to something.  Denny to David" - January 24-31   Part II  High Sea cont. (p. 274 - 360 - hardback) February 1-end  Part III The Harbors  (p. 361-497 - hardback)

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
January 8 - 15  Part II High Sea (p. 71-170 hardback)
-ending  before: "The Cuban Medical students, a hermetic society."

1. Jenny refers to herself as a fool, I think more than once. Have other characters referred to themselves as fools? (from nlholme)  Have you noticed Jenny's character develop as the story progresses?  Do you find any of the characters to be comfortable in his/her own skin? Would you call them "fools?"

2. What characterizations of the person you are "shadowing" (if you are shadowing one) or of any of the people on the ship were of particular interest to you in this section?

3.  Are you a cat person or a dog person?  There are many animal metaphors throughout this section. Which ones stand out for you?

4.  What do the  German fraus have in common?  What do they expect to find on their return to Germany after living some time in Mexico?  Are the German women passengers as alike one another as they appeared to be in the opening chapter?

5. Are the following references a possible commentary on Hitler's Germany? Are there other references you found?
---(p. 81) Herr Hutton says in reference to his dog, Bebe, "How blood and training do form and sustain character. Look at the good animal: he will never fail us."
---(p. 97) Herr Lowenthal's thoughts: "Ah, he needed to be more careful and clever than he was -- he suffered waves of fright sometimes because he feared he was not clever enough, they would play him a trick someday and he would not know until it was too late. It occurred to him often that he was living in a world so dangerous he wondered how he dared to go to sleep at night."

6.  There are quite a few references to religion and also to sex and to love in this section. What are some that you found? What do you think Porter is saying about religion? about sex? about love?

7.  How are the Spanish dancers characterized?  Why are they travelling first class? Do you find the Spanish  twins, Ric and Rac frightening?  If so, why?

8.  "Mexicans loathe the Americans, despise the Jews, hate the Spaniards, distrust the English, admire the French and  love the Germans."   Are you finding this generalized statement to be accurate among the passengers aboard the Vera?
 

Discussion Leaders:  Joan P  and  Marcie

[Jonathan]

I can see where a misanthrope might really enjoy this book. The rest of us will be left shaking our heads over this motley crowd. Even the narrator is prejudiced, it seems to me, in dismissing them all as a bunch of misfits of one kind or another. But she's great at pairing them up. Jenny and David for example. And then Jenny and Elsa. Is there method in this madness. And that is only for the romantic angle in the novel.

I've just become aware of the questions. Very thought-provoking.

I have wondered why Totsky chose Mexico as a refuge, or a place where he might be out of Stalin's reach.

[bellamarie]

I finally got my book so I will try to catch up on my reading and be back to read the posts.  Can't wait to set sail with all of you.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

I'm finding I read the book in chunks--have now read the second chunk, which brings me up to date.  I still can't like any of the characters very much, but I have sympathy for many of them.

Someone asked if Porter has a sense of humor.  I don't see much, and there is none of the lightheartedness that often goes along with humor, but she makes a lot of very clever, insightful remarks that are a sort of dark humor.  Examples:

Frau Lutz, talking to her husband: "...and long years of deeply cherished, never-to-be-settledgrudges lay in her tone."

David, observing Jenny: "...even when Jenny seemed intelligent, or sincere, he still distrusted her female mind, crooked and cloudy by nature: she was no doubt asking questions designed to lead the man to talk about himself, meaning to trap him into small confidences and confessions that later she could use as a weapon against him when needed."

[PatH]

Marcie and I are right now discussing ways to slow down a bit, break down Part II even further.  We could  extend the discussion into February.  Will that help?  Can those of you reading library books renew?

I'm good with whatever schedule anyone else wants.  I think I'll mostly keep up if we stick to 4 weeks, but don't mind having more time.  I own the book, so don't have access problems.  Jean, I also read the book when it came out, but have only the dimmest memory of it.

[salan]

I think extending the book is a good idea.  I am having trouble "slogging" through it.  Easy to put down, hard to pick up again.  I have my own copy; so have no trouble with extension.
Sally

[JoanP]

Ok, we've adjusted the schedule  - see it in  the heading.  We'll start discussing Part II tomorrow as planned - but not cover quite as many pages.  Pages 171 - 274 (hardback) is still quite a few to "slog" through, Sally - let's see how this goes - once the action begins.
PatH - how did you manage to read so quickly?  What is your secret?

" I still can't like any of the characters very much, but I have sympathy for many of them. PatH"  

I guess I feel the same way, Pat.  

Which leads me to the question - is it possible to enjoy a book, if you don't enjoy the company of the characters?  Do you spend time with people with whom you have nothing in common?  Why was this book such a best seller when it came out in 1962?  Is there something we're missing?
Maybe the critical eye of the narrator is someone we can appreciate.  Is the narrator Porter?  Do we share her distaste for these people on board the ship?
  I think I'd like to spend time with her on this ship.  Although Jonathan is finding  her "prejudiced in dismissing them all as a bunch of misfits of one kind or another."  
I think the author is succeeding if she is attempting to enlist our disdain - though she seems to risk losing us, don't you think?  She'd better hurry up and portray them with more understanding - and sympathy.

What did you think of the ship's doctor, Dr. Schumann? I'm going to watch him - he seems noteworthy.   Aren't there other first class passengers who express pity for the steerage passengers who boarded the ship in Havana?  Did you notice how many of them there are?  Eight hundred and seventy six!  This  ship is much bigger than I had imagined.

We're watching for you in our wake, Bella , Hats and Mippy!  Don't give up!
 

[JudeS]

Yes-Please extend the time to complete part 2 of this book. I am a very fast reader but I can't take too much of these people at one time. Porter is an in depth writer and there is much to think about on almost every page.
I was surprised that she made the Captain of the ship(pages 103& 104) rather stereotypical.  Perhaps we will see his inner thoughts at a later date.

Jomnathan:In answer to your question...
Trotsky had left Russia to escape the Stalinists who were plotting to kill him. He spent time in many countries(Norway, England etc.) always on the run. Mexico offered him the possibility of remaining in one place in the year 1936 .Diego Rivera, already a famous personage, was a Trotskyite and gave him and his wife a home.  Rivera and Kahlo liked and reapected Trotsky and spent much time with him and in making arrangements for his safety. Ultimately a Canadian, wielding an Axe and posing as a Trotskyite writer, managed to hack him to death in his own office.
If you are interested, the novel by Barbara Kingsolver, The Lacuna, is a marvelous read and deals with many issues of the 20s, 30s and 40s in Mexico and in the United States.

[Jonathan]

I'm ok with whatever changes are made to the reading schedule. I'm all over the book anyways and worried about giving something away and spoiling it for other readers. Like, for example, saying that it's futile to look for action from this crowd of fools. But they can certainly be the cause of much action in the reader's mind. We can only guess at the turmoil they created in the author's mind. I can see something of Porter in four or five of the women. In fact she may be coming to terms with her past in this novel. Looking for understanding.

With Jenny a prime example. You've found a good example, Pat, of the dark humor in the book. Isn't she a mystery to both David and herself? Logging on just now a headline flashed across my screen. It has Stephen Hawking wondering at the mystery of women, and comparing them with the blackholes of the universe. Crooked and cloudy by nature. Surely that's a false perception. If so, she's something other than a fool.

Who is following the newlyweds? They must represent the dream of someone. Such innocence and self-satisfaction seem almost out of place in this menagerie of lost souls.

I've made a note of the Kingslover book, thanks, Jude. I'm going to follow that up. What a shock to hear that it was a Canadian who was the assassin. We're all so unpolitical up here.

[nlhome]

I am reading so slowly, I'm not sure I'll ever finish. I get caught at a certain point and have to put the book down and think of something else. I want to finish - it's a personal challenge. But at the same time, so many books, so little time.....is it worth it to spend the little reading time I have? I do enjoy the discussion, just am always behind, and no, I don't expect anyone to slow to my pace, just that I won't be contributing that much.

[serenesheila]

I am giving up on this novel.  I find myself not wanting to open the book, again.  Reading it, depresses me!  It is much too dark, for my taste.

I am at a point where I want to read something lighter, with some humor in it. There is already too much darkness in the world.  I read for enjoyment.  As well as for new information.

Sheila

[JoanP]

nlholme - that's great you are staying with the book - no matter what speed you can comfortably read it.  I'm sure you'll agree with JudeS - she "can't take too much of these people at one time."  What do you think of this? - Read a small "chunk" as PatH described her method, and then come here to share your thoughts on just that small section.  We really want to hear from you.

Sheila, I think the author is trying to describe  the conditions, the demonstrations,the revolutions, the  prejudices and biases that led up to the second world war.   You bet, it was a dark period.  How do you think our world situation  compares to the unrest  preceding that war?

[JoanP]

One thing we haven't really talked about...those German haus fraus and the way their lives were defined by their husbands.   Did you think they were so very different from our experience back in the 60's? Was your husband the head of the house?

Jonathan, I like your method...you're "all over the book."  Honestly, I don't have a problem with that.  It doesn't hurt if you give something away - provides incentive to read on.   This ship seems a stage, the passengers making their appearances and then exiting stage right, making room for the next strolling pair.  I had to smile when you described those newlyweds'  "innocence and self-satisfaction"....  I had been thinking that the groom may have been satisfied with the situation, but that young bride with the dark circles under her eyes, never a smile...just doesn't seem  all that happy to me.

[marcie]

Sheila, the book does portray, as JoanP describes, the prejudices and biases and attitudes that led to World War II and is dark, as you say but I am also finding her descriptions of the people interesting, in a somewhat voyeuristic way. Her writing is compelling me to keep reading.

 While Jonathan tells us not to expect much action in the story, I think he's right that Porter's portrayals can be the cause of much action in the reader's mind.

Your description of the book as a stage is a good one, JoanP.  "This ship seems a stage, the passengers making their appearances and then exiting stage right, making room for the next strolling pair." That seems to be Porter's method for spiraling back to each of the characters, round and round the ship.

[nlhome]

Jenny refers to herself as a fool, I think more than once. Perhaps I am not reading closely enough - have other characters referred to themselves as fools?

[JoanP]

That's a great question, nlholme!  That's something we need to  watch for.  So far, I notice the characters showing disdain - criticizing others - feeling superior to most other passengers - never self-critical.  Do you suppose we will begin to see various passengers admitting to their own insecurities and shortcomings - even to the point of calling themselves "fools" - as you noticed Jenny doing?  Great question!

[Jonathan]

As far as I can see (out in left field), only Herr Graf and Herr Lowenthal are without insecurities and short-comings. Even the Captain's stomach is churning at times. Jenny, alone, seems eager and willing to examine her life and learn from her mistakes. I wonder, will she end up being another La Condesa? A nymphomaniac. Despite the lack of action the passengers all slowly reveal their secrets and  their failings. Jenny seems so alive. So in love with David. If only he wouldn't go on painting the same picture over and over. Preoccupied with the oppressed and downtrodden. Will these two ever hit it off? They can't even agree on their destination. She for France. And he for Spain. Let's not forget. The ideological battle known as The Spanish Civil War attracted artists as well as fighters in the thirties.

[JudeS]

Since I am shadowing Herr Glocken I must report on him through Jenny's eyes(Page 86)"a hasty outline of Herr Glocken's harmonious , interesting, deformity....." That is definitely a different and artistic way of observing a hunchback.

Then we must remember David's reaction to Herr GLocken:pg.76 " David noted with intense surprise that he wore  a bright res silk pajama coat. Profusion in color  in anything was offensive to David; it offended more than his eyes, he distrusted it on moral grounds, and nowhere more so than in dress..."
Then on page 77 "David in the wave of repulsion he suffered at the sight of Herr Glocken's pajama hated Jenny for a violent moment, as he did ofen and oftener"

The author is using color to give us insight into these characters. She isalso, perhaps, using Glocken the way Shakespeare uses a "jester" or "Fool" in his plays. The character is an outsider who elicits feelings that seem directed toward him but really reveal aspects of the thinkers inner workings.

[hats]

Hi Everybody,

I have the hardback copy. It's a library copy. Looked at the first few pages and threw the book down. Came back to the discussion to see this is week 2. Picked up the book again. Began reading from page 71. Found it interesting to read about the dying man and his nephew and Ric and Rac, the twins. Felt a yearning to go back and read the beginning of the book at some point.

[retired]

Just a joke regarding the young newly wed bride:
Those dark circles under her eyes may be due to too many hours of
lost sleep . Too much night time sex.

Jenny and David: I became progressively disgusted with these two.
What a neurotic co-dependent relationship depicted in this novel.
Except for their choice of art as a life choice they were mismatched
as a couple. Yet not able emotionally to go their separate ways permantly.
Jenny also flirts with other male passengers and almost has an affair with
one when she and David have a disagreement and a short dis-attachment
from each other.

I did not get the impression from my reading that Herr Lowenthal was without
insecurities of his own. He had to always be on his guard when around those he
regarded as anti-semitic .
Jonathan gave an excellent example of this from his documentation regarding his
recent post.

The Steerage passengers : Very sad . The space provided for such a large number
was grossly inadequate . The ship's Captain says he has taken on twice the
number the space was designated for.
This herding of poor sugar farm workers from Mexico now exiled back to Cuba
(men and women ) in inadequate Steerage accommodations were a breeding
place for disease ,lack of adequate sanitation, death.
Some of the women gave birth during the voyage with Dr. Schumann
attending to some of those births and also attending to illness and some
injuries there as well .
There were examples of fights breaking out there and orders from
the Captain to open the water hoses on them due to the extreme heat in Steerage
and some fights.

The German passengers would view the sights of the steerage passengers
from an open grating . They were not sympathetic to their plight at all.
This was just a past time for them. Very sad . They could not identify with
them at all . Not even as other humans.
The German mind set.

This example of the crowding  and unhygenic conditions would remind one of
the various immigrent groups that sailed to New York harbor for a new life in
the USA . Another example would be the African slaves brought to the USA .

Enough said for now . I will continue this voyage with the Discussion group .

 

[JoanP]

It's a good thing we have shadowers on individual characters.  Considering them as a group, we seem to be missing their differences.  For example, Jonathan sees "only Herr Graf and Herr Lowenthal without insecurities and short-comings."  I'll have to agree with retired, who said "from my reading I did not I get the impression that Herr Lowenthal was without insecurities of his own. He had to always be on his guard when around those he regarded as anti-semitic .

And Dr. Schumann - he seems a sympathetic character - eager to help those who need a friend...like the odd Contessa for one.  And he really does seem to take notice and pity those steerage passengers, doesn't he?  I'm going to watch him closely to see if he bears up under closer scrutiny.  I know he is ill himself...is it his heart.  I'm forgetting more than I care to admit - relying on you all to fill in the gaps.

And what about Herr Glocken, Jonathan?  Jude is shadowing him - and sees him through Jenny's eyes - at ease with himself, despite his deformity.  An interesting comment about the author's use of color giving us insight into her characters, Jude.  If Herr Glocken wished to be left alone, unnoticed, would he have chosen that red silk pajama coat?

Let's watch Glocken to see how Jude's idea of Porter's use for his character develops.  She sees him as "an outsider who elicits feelings that seem directed toward him but really reveal aspects of the thinkers' inner workings."

Hats - the twins, Ric and Rac - and that awful nephew supposedly caring for his ailing, dependant uncle frightened me to death. So devoid of emotion.  What do you think the author intends to say with her portray of these young people?

I've been thinking of Marcie's comment - that Porter's portrayals can be the cause of much action in the reader's mind.   Still I do expect some action...but maybe I'm wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time.  Do you wonder how a writer could spend 20 years writing one book?  I mean, how did she do it?  Did she spend the time rewriting the same chapters, fleshing out the characters even more, every few years?  Or did she write some and then put it aside for a couple of years before going back?  I'd really like to know more about how this book came about.  How do you decide when it is actually finished?

[marcie]

Jonathan, Jenny seems a puzzle to me. She appears spontaneous and free-spirited though we know that David has dampened that (he doesn't like color-- on moral grounds!) yet she does seem to reflect on her situation.... but then we see her from David's point of view and her reflections seem self-serving (gathering ammunition to use against him or another guy). Is David right about her? Is he projecting from his awful childhood?

JudeS, I'm glad that you brought up the use of color to give insight to the characters. I'll have to pay more attention to that. Also, Herr Glocken's role as Shakespeare's jester or fool. The film that was adapted from the book gives Glocken that specific role.

Hats, I'm glad that you are back with us. I somehow lost my place and missed some pages in section 1. After reading this week's allotment of section 2, I went back and found it  helpful to read the last part of section 1. As many of you have said, it's difficult to remember who is who in this large cast of characters.

Retired, yes, the conditions of the farm workers in steerage reminds one of the cattle cars used by Hitler to transport Jews. Inhuman conditions, though the Captain is trying to mitigate the circumstances.

[JoanP]

Marcie, Jenny is a real puzzle, maybe the most difficult to understand.  I agree with Jonathan about her character - she seems eager to examine her life and learn from her mistakes.  A nymphomaniac like La Condesa, Jonathan?  Dunno about that.  Jude's previous mention of Diego Rivera and now yours about Jenny's character, reminded me of the author, her four husbands and many lovers.  It was interesting to learn of the time Porter's spent with the Mexican revolutionaries and her affair with the artist, Diego Rivera.  While looking for the author in one of the characters in her book, might we consider Jenny?

Here's a revealing article abput KA Porter's time spent in Mexico among the Revolutionaries and her time with Diego Rivera:

"In 1919, she met a group of Mexican revolutionaries, and they persuaded her to go to Mexico to write about the coming revolution there.  At the time, it was an extraordinary thing for a woman to travel alone to a foreign country, and especially to a country that was so politically unstable as Mexico. South of the border, she found herself associating with revolutionaries, artists, anthropologists, and politicians, and it was there that she began to write the first of her serious short stories.  She became a lover to Diego Rivera and befriended other revolutionaries, with whom she would frequently party and smoke marijuana. " http://www.amsaw.org/amsaw-ithappenedinhistory-051504-porter.html
 

 
  

[JudeS]

Joan P.
I didn't know that Porter was one of Diego Rivers's many lovers.I just saw the meeting of Barbara Kingsolvers novel with this one.

That knowledge gives me more insight into the novel we are reading.Really interesting. Need to think more about this fact.
Thanks!

[Jonathan]

'Looking for the author.' That is a most interesting biographical article, Joan. What interesting lives she lived. She can probably be found in all the characters. Still, she manages to give them all distinctive individualities. The fun of the book lies in getting involved in each one of them. She certainly did.

My life has been incredible, I don't believe a word of it.

So, Ship of Fools is a make believe project? Can she convince us? Make believers out of us? Or is it disillusionment that she intends.

Look for her in Jenny, primarily. With Mrs. Treadwell, Frau Rittersdorf, and La Condesa acting as foils. But also keep Amparo, Lola, Concha and Pastora in reserve.

No wonder David is bewildered.

[retired]

Herr Glocken:
His insecurities are related to his poor physical health.
He is sharing a small crowded cabin with two other passengers;
David and Denny. He asks for assistance daily due to his mobility problems
and daily pain, need for pain medication before getting out of bed. David is very helpful
to accommodate is needs. Including giving him the lower bunk .
Dwarfs usually have or develop developmental orthopedic problems during their life span.

He tells David that he has sold his small tobacco/newspaper stand in Mexico and is returning to
Germany . I do not remember if a reason is provided to his cabin mate.
As to his choice of red : does not a bright color usually more cheerful than
a selection of a drab color. Can indicate the desire to be happy.
He also tells David that his dream was to be a Violinist in his youth .
When David questions why he did not follow his dream ?  Herr Glocken
tells him to look at his body .
An unfullfilled dream . Sad but understandable.
I thought about his future in Nazi Germany which would be grim due to
Hitler's perfection for the German citizen.  He might end up in a Nazi oven.

The Zarzuela company of singers and dancers were probably designated
first class passengers because their roles were to entertain the passengers .
They seem to be a Gypsy group and we learn they are very talented .
The stereotype of the Gypsy as thief will be developed as the novel
continues.

Herr Graf the elderly ill "dying " wheelchair bound man is an example of
a religious zealot. He believes he has the power of healing the sick .
He is depicted as a kindly person who is accompanied by his teen
age nephew who resents the burden of his care.
We learn that the nephew becomes infatuated sexually with one of the
dancers in the Zarzuela group and demands  money from his uncle to
pay for her services. The uncle finally gives him some money but he he is not told his purpose.

Here we have the author incorporating religion, sexual desires and the stresses and
resentments of the care taking role .

Enough said. I will continue to watch the events unfold on board the Vera.
 

[marcie]

I am not sure how kindly Herr Graf is. He intends to be "good" and to give his new gift of healing to others (whether they want it or not) but he thinks that it would be beneficial to his nephew if he could beat the knot of willfulness out of him, which he doesn't have the strength to accomplish.

Herr Glocken seems not to be vindictive, even though he has a frail body, constantly in pain...somewhat akin to Herr Graf's situation.

[hats]

Yes, I can renew my book. Eight hundred seventy-six people??? Wow!

[marcie]

I'm glad you can renew, hats. That reminds me that I need to renew my book today!

Far too many people in steerage; roughly 2/3 more than it's supposed to hold.

[hats]

Oh my goodness, I haven't read much of the book, but I'm reading about deeply felt prejudices immediately. I'm thinking about Frau Hutten's feelings about the Spanish dancing troupe. Was this novel published immediately after WWII? I guess feelings of bias ran deeply before the war?? Ms. Porter compares Ric And Rac's companionship to a "state of intense undeclared war with the adult world."

[JoanP]

 

Was this novel published immediately after WWII? I guess feelings of bias ran deeply before the war??

An interesting question about the writing and the publishing of this book, Hats!  The answer makes your head spin.  Porter took the voyage in 1931 or 32.  She took notes on her observations of her fellow passengers.  Ten years later (1942) she began writing this novel...and didn't finish it until the early 1960's!  So you're right - we're seeing the growing biases back in the 30's...leading up to the war.  Since she continues to work on the novel for 20 years after the war, I'm assuming that she sees the  same problems existing right into the 60's.  Do you?

I'm smiling at your inclusion of Frau  Rittersdorf as one of the characters who embody the author's personality, Jonathan. - She describes her as "slightly deaf, slightly nearsighted...with a poor memory,"  yet she is the one chronicling the journey.  Do you really believe her journal resembles Porter's?  Funny!  This author has a sense of humor!

I did some quick math after reading your observation on Ric and Rac's companionship, Hats... "a state of intense undeclared war with the adult world."
These are youngsters now.  So is Herr Graf's cold-hearted nephew.  But ten years from now -  these children will be fighting in that war.

[JoanP]

Retired, I share your concern for Herr Glocken's future in Germany.  Though he himself is making the most of what life has dished out to him, in spite of his broken dreams, he seems comfortable with his deformity.

Have you considered the men as a group?  To me they are ALL either ill, seriously ill, dying - or heavy, heavy drinkers?  Who do you see not fitting into this catergory?  I like Dr. Schumann more and more, but fear he won't make it to the end.  He tries  to make the most of the days he has left though - "patching up the deceived, the foolhardy, the willfully blinded, the lover of suffering..."  Does he include himself in this group?  I'm watching for more of the passengers who admit they are "fools, nlholme."

[JudeS]

Joan P
One of your questions is "what does the author think of sex?"
Well I think she sums it up very well on page 112 when she is writing about Ric and Rac..
The difference between the two children is "the mysterious stigmata of sex."
I can't get that remark out of my head. It leads to many interpretations:
Sex is Holy
Sex is painful
Your sex marks you for life
and on and on.
After reading the biographical article of Porter's life I would say she is an expert in this field and knows quite well what she writes on this subject.

[Jonathan]

the mysterious stigmata of sex

What a wonderful example of a certain peculiarity of Porter's style, that you have selected, Jude. You give us a choice of meanings. I choose the 'marked for life' interpretation. In fact a light seems to go on. I see something satirical in that. To be stigmatized by this or that can mean that someone is marked out for disapproval. Or the person is demeaned by that. Is Porter also suggesting that race or physical features can be seen as stigmas. Ship of Fools is beginning to strike me as intensely satirical. In the Mark Twain, Jonathan Swift manner.

Ric and Rac are identical except for that. I wonder how their story ends. In the meantime, they seem to have been seriously predjudiced. Have you noticed. Only German things are thrown overboard. The Hutten's dog. Frau Rittersdorf's deckchair cushion.

[JoanP]

On interesting observation, Jude. 
And Jonathan, I agree, the author is saying:"To be stigmatized by this or that can mean that someone is marked out for disapproval.   Do we find that observation to be true of the female passengers aboard the Vera?  Or merely disapproval of certain races?  The American girls - the young ones -  are boisterous and rowdy. (I'm shadowing Mary Treadwell, but so far see nothing much but the fact that she is well-dressed. No disapproval there.

The Spanish dancers are no more than ladies of the night - of course she disapproves of them. (Why are they traveling first class?)

What of the German ladies?  They regard themselves as beyond reproach.  Does the author agree with that assessment - or is she criticizing them in her own inimitable fashion?

[marcie]

Jonathan, you say "Ship of Fools is beginning to strike me as intensely satirical. In the Mark Twain, Jonathan Swift manner." I agree. There continue to be a lot of (almost fable-like) animal comparisons in relation to the characters. Most are not flattering.

[retired]

Regarding Mary Treadwell:
She is also depicted as quite a drinker .
Introverted not a friendly outgoing person.
Not receptive to her cabin mate's chatter when in the room or in
the cares and chatter of others who may want her to listen to them.
Comes across as depressed using alcohol as a buffer.
She is attractive and dresses well and is seen as desirable to some
men on the ship.
I believe it was the Purser of the ship among a few others.

Ric and Rac ( twins) undisciplined little monsters are finally physically disciplined by
their parents when they steal a necklace off a women passenger's neck and throw it overboard.
When the loss is reported and the item is deemed valuable their gypsy parents are angry.
Due to the value of the Pearl necklace the parents were planning to steal the item themselves.

Lola the mother of the twins lashes out at them severly. Punishing them physically
particularly the boy twin . She inflicts severe bodily bruises on the male child causing him to
spend a few days in the cabin to recuperate.

Here we have the stereotype of the gypsy as thief and severe physical discipline as a cultural
norm .

Enough for now . I will continue the journey another .



               

[JoanP]

retired...we don't get much of a picture of Mary Treadwell, though you point out she is a heavy drinker.  Is the author including herself in her portrayal of the 40 something divorcee?  I think so. 

Jonathan writes that even the narrator (the author?) is prejudiced - "dismissing them all as a bunch of misfits of one kind or another." 

I keep pondering what Porter's purpose in writing this book really was.  Did she intend it as a warning to the Post WWII generation?  A warning that the same thing might happen again?  Another war?  Or a satire as has been suggested here - a satire to entertain?  Or to warn...

I would give anything to read the actual notes she took on that 1931 voyage.  Have you read anything about them?  Do they still exist?   I remember reading somewhere that portions of Ship of Fools were published as short stories in the years before the book was finished in the early 60's.  These short stories left her readers hungry for more - wanting to know more about these characters.

retired...I haven't read of the theft of that necklace yet - do see David and Jenny discussing its value, however.  A great example of Porter's brand of humor - the parents' beating of their children - for tossing the necklace overboard.  Not because of the theft, but because they had intended  to steal it themselves. 

How is everyone doing with the reading?  Or have you tossed the book overboard?  I'm hooked now - want to learn more about the characters and hope that Porter won't let us down by the end.

[Jonathan]

'Have you tossed the book overboard?' Hahaha. Of course not, Joan. I'm enjoying it too much. Perhaps it's the dark side of our human nature on display, but there it is. Haven't we all experienced the things Porter writes about? So packed with human experience. A brilliant book.

Thanks, retired, for drawing our attention to Mrs Treadwell. Here she is at 46:

The last day of August was a nondescript time to be born...here she was arrived at that stage in human life supposed most to resemble the insect-riddled month...when nothing blooms but weeds in earth, and the soul puts out rank growths, too, according to dreary popular opinion. The lower instincts take alarm for fear they may have missed something, are hot for marginal enjoyments. Hearts grow hard and cold, they say, or go overripe and pulpy; women especially, one is told, so often lose their modesty, their grace. They become shrill, or run to fat, or turn to beanpoles, take to secret drinking or to nagging their husbands; they get tangled up in disreputable love affairs; they marry men too young for them and get just what they deserve; if they have a little money, they attract every species of parasite, and Lesbians lurk in the offing, waiting for loneliness and fear to do their  work; oh it is all enough to scare anybody, said Mrs. Treadwell, shaking her head and taking up her magazine again.

She's doing something about. She's off to Paris and other French delights. As for the notes that Porter made on that 1931 voyage, could they have been something like Frau Rittersdorf's notebook entries? No...too predjudiced for that.

I'm still shadowing Herr Lowenthal. He is, after all, the main character in the book. He does stand out. It wouldn't be any voyage at all without him. Nobody likes him, but nice things are said about him. I believe he is the only one always thought of as a human being. All the others, well, many of them, are sooner or later given an animal name; like cackling hyenas, monkeys, swine, rats, crickets, and many others. The Germans, especially, don't come out of this looking very good.

[retired]

Herr Lowenthal:
I was perplexed why the author identifies him as " a Jewish manufacturer and salesman of Catholic church furnishings ". He tells one of the passengers that there is" good business in these items."
Understandable but as a observant Jew one could think the author would identify him as selling Judaica .
Jewish religious items.
Any one find the author's description of his trade puzzling ?
Is she possibly indicating that when there is such a large market ( many Catholic churches ) available
for an item religious identification would not be a factor for the salesperson .
The opportunities for the sales would be paramount.

I did not believe that Herr Lowenthal was liked at all .
He was assigned to a small seperate table in the dining room.
The " stigmata " of the Jew .

Did anyone see the author's description of Herr Lowenthal differently ?
Please enlighten this reader.