Author Topic: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online  (Read 62207 times)

JoanK

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: March 17, 2009, 04:06:27 PM »
The Book Club Online  is  the oldest  continuing book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Team of Rivals
by
Doris Kearns Goodwin

                         

"More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times

The Team:
William H. Seward
Salmon P. Chase
Edward Bates
.........     Links:
NPR Review
Wilmot Proviso
Dred Scott Decision
Kansas-Nebraska Act
Fugitive Slave Law
March 15 -Chapters 8-11
March 22 - Chapters 12-15
.........March 29 - Chapters 16-19
April 5 -      Chapters 20-23
April 12 -    Chapters 24 -26

To Consider in Chapters 12-15

1.  Could Lincoln have avoided war by giving in to the South’s demands?

2.  Do you think Lincoln was deliberately aiming for war by reinforcing Forts Sumter and Pickens?

3. How did Seward’s attitude toward Lincoln change?  Why?

4. At the start of hostilities, Lincoln authorized the suspension of Habeas Corpus under limited conditions.  Were you surprised?

5. What would have happened if Lee had accepted the Union Command?

6. What do you think of Mary’s redecorating and entertaining?

7. In this section we start to see the results of Lincoln’s policy of surrounding himself with rivals and men of different factions.  How is it working out?

8. At the start of the war, Lincoln was plagued with a series of ineffective generals.  Was this inevitable?

9. What happened in the battles so far?

10. So far, Lincoln is still insisting that the war is about preserving the Union, and not about slavery.  What do you think of this?

11. Lincoln and Mary coped with their grief for Willie in very different ways.  Was either preferable?

 
 

Discussion Leaders:
Ella & PatH








                                                                                                             
JoanK's post
One of the "Lincoln seminars on CSpan, it was pointed out that students of Lincoln and his days divide sharply on whether they are "pro-Mary or anti-Mary., with the pendulum swinging toward the pro-Mary. It's good to hear that point of view. Like any human being, she had good and bad qualities. We don't have to labor her as "good" or "bad". Perhaps if her diabetes had been treated, we wouldn't have these stories of wierd behavior. She was also a "shopoholic", which led to much criticism. Neither she nor the people around her understood this as an addiction.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: March 18, 2009, 08:41:08 AM »
JEAN has a good question about the people hearing what is being said at the convention; I have always wondered the same about the public speeches given by candidates where thousands came to hear them - long before the microphone!  How?  And Lincoln had a rather high squeaky voice, I think I read.  I doubt he would project very well on our TV’s!

Pat tells us there were 33 states represented at the 1860 convention, I hadn’t realized that either.  Many Southern states and one has to wonders if they were worried about the winner of the race for the nomination. 

Thanks for the post, JONATHAN, and I quite agree that all history is an abridgement, but Goodwin is pretty good at it as you said,; she has written a book that reads well and yet gives us insight to the period of Lincoln, the genius -  the man who managed his own campaign strategies, who said "make no contracts that bind me" and the man who inspired people.  One man observed: that:  "Most of them worked con amore, chiefly from love of the man, his lofty moral tone, his pure political morality." Wow!

Commentators on TV have marveled at Obama’s campaign strategies and reading about Lincoln’s one realizes that our president followed many of Lincoln’s steps, don’t you agree?    I was particularly interested to read that Seward stated:  "The leader of a political party in a country like ours is so exposed that his enemies become as numerous and formidable as his friends."    Further - "Lincoln, by contrast, comparatively unknown, had not to contend with the animosities generally marshaled against a leader."

Speaking of history repeating itself!  Hillary, McCain and all the others, the country knew them.

At the top of Page 254 are more comments that Goodwin makes about Lincoln’s victory in Chicago, the grain yard of America in 1860; later to become the butcher shop.
 
THANKS, LUCKY, for your post.  Those remarks of Lincoln have been criticized extensively  Weren’t those views on race in his Cooper Union speech?   And you make the point that no provisions were made for the slaves after the war, but at the time I think the country was so weary, and its president assassinated, and, no doubt, the coffers were empty.  What could have been done?   And, as you say, women were left out of any rights at all until 1920 I believe it was. 

EMILY, what a great post about Mary Todd Lincoln, THANK YOU!  I enjoyed hearing, for a change, something good about her , she has been so abused by most historians and I have always thought  she must have been a burden on Lincoln before and after he was president.  But your statements indicate she was an asset ,  particularly in helping with his campaigns and his presidential years. 

BLUBBERING BUFFOONS!  Hahahaa    I like that, and I would love to hear your pick on those on TV!  I have  looked at the book on first ladies at the Library and now I must read about Mary!

Later, eg

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: March 18, 2009, 08:59:11 AM »
THE DEMOCRATS!  OUR TWO-PARTY SYSTEM FAILED!  THEIR CONVENTION IN SOUTH CAROLINA ENDED IN CHAOS.

WHY?  What did the Dred Scott decision have to do with it?  We should linger a bit here in our historic trip through history.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: March 18, 2009, 09:04:12 AM »
THE DEMOCRATS!  OUR TWO-PARTY SYSTEM FAILED!  THEIR CONVENTION IN SOUTH CAROLINA ENDED IN CHAOS.

WHY?  What did the Dred Scott decision have to do with it?  We should linger a bit here in our historic trip through history.

Yes, let's get to that, but one last comment first: as JoanK points out above, the pendulum is swinging back from anti-Mary to pro-Mary, so maybe she will be more fairly treated now.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: March 18, 2009, 09:15:47 AM »
OUR TWO PARTY SYSTEM FAILED!
I was startled at the shuffling and re-dealing of political parties going on at this time, and slavery was by far the biggest issue.  Ella, I thing you've put your finger on a crucial event in the process.  Give us your thoughts, everyone.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: March 18, 2009, 09:52:14 AM »
Right, PAT!  For reference, see the link in the heading , and on pags. 188-189 in our book the scenario is written very well by Goodwin.  "Initially, the decision appeared to be a stunning victory for the South/"

mabel1015j

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: March 18, 2009, 03:55:04 PM »
WHOPEE! I got my book from the library! Oh my! The DVD is VERY abridged. i've read about 80 pages of the book and what a good read! Of course, i've always enjoyed DKG's writing. I don't understand how they could put out a DVD that is abridged w/out stating that it is somewhere on the packaging. The book provides such good in-depth background on the whole team, i'm thoroughly enjoying it. My decision now is to whether i try to catch up, or go to Chapter 8 and read w/ you all.  :-\ .........i'll probably do both..............

Some of you have alluded to whether AL could be elected today in our TV world. I think his look and his voice would have been a major detriment. How long has it been since we even had a "balding" president??? IKE? Yes, Ford, but he lost election in his own right. Perot was the only candidate we've had recently who did not have a "pleasant" speaking voice. If the majority of the country could have seen and heard AL and if he had had a "history" for people to scrutinize..............................??.................ummmmmm. I don't know.

I'm not going to go back and comment on the early part of the book, but i did love the Emily Dickinson quote "There is no Frigate like a Book....." They can take you anywhere and to any time and it is one of the reasons i love reading so much. On the next page (52) there is one thing about AL that i think many of us could identify with............."Everywhere he went, L carried a book w/ him......... " Certainly is true for me and i'm sure for many of you.

Every young person should read an intimate bio of Lincoln and discover that self-education can be very beneficial and reading is the foundation of self-education.

DKG's use of language is so enjoyable. On pg 54 she writes, .."What L lacked in preparation and guidance, he made up for w/ his daunting concentration, phenomenal memory, acute reasoning faculties, and interpretive penetration."  I love the adjectives.......................jean


PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: March 18, 2009, 05:37:57 PM »
Jean, hooray! you're going to enjoy all the tidbits that were probably left out of the audio.

"My decision now is to whether i try to catch up, or go to Chapter 8 and read w/ you all.   :-\ .....i'll probably do both."

I hope you do do both; there is a world of amusing machination in this section.

Could Lincoln be elected today looking as he did?  There are a number of incidents in this section of someone meeting Lincoln for the first time and being dismayed by his appearance, but ending up totally impressed when he talked for a while.  I like Joank's picture of him threatened with a TV makeover.  I can't quite see him submitting.

One of my favorite quotes so far is from Simon Cameron, Pennsylvania political boss:
"an honest politician is one who, when he is bought, stays bought"
Cameron didn't understand why Lincoln wouldn't appoint him Secretary of the Treasury.

mabel1015j

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: March 18, 2009, 08:41:52 PM »
The Winter 2009, American Heritage Magizine, has a special section on Lincoln: L as Cmdr in Chief; Douglass and L: Fight to end Slavery; L as Speech Maker; L sinks the Merrimack; If he hadn't Died? And there's a terrific picture which is done by Robt Silvers of Matthew Brady's haunting portrait of AL made up of tiny pieces of pictures from the civil war. I tried to find it on line to give you a link, and it is for sale, but the pics that i saw on line weren't distinct enough for you to see the Civil War pics.  It is, of course, done digitally.  It is one of those things that if you stand back from it, you see the portrait very clearly, but when you look closely you see it has been made by piecing together tiny pics of people or events of the CW.........

The American Heritage Mag had stopped publishing about a hear ago, but has come back. They also have a new website that lists all of the historic sites across the country. It is www.HeritageSites.us. There is also an article about the reopening of the National Museum of American History at the Smithsonian. The first exhibit that you see when you enter is the repaired "STar-spangled BAnner." The whole building has been reconfigured and modernized. You can see their website and what exhibits they are showing at http://americanhistory.si.edu/ ................back to my reading..........jean

JoanK

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: March 18, 2009, 09:03:18 PM »
All the details are great, but can be a problem for a casual reader of history like me. A consciencious historian can put in a lot of detail that might be important to someone else in the field, but isn't interesting in itself. Goodwin gets it about right.

I'm remembering a biography I read of Oscar Wilde, Wilde was one of those people who knew EVERYONE, and the biographer felt that he had to give a biography of everyone he knew, whether they were interesting or not!

One person I wish Goodwin had told us more about was a John Morse, who was involved in Chases election schemes in Ohio. Since my mother's mname was Morse, they lived in Ohio at that time, and there were Johns in the family, I can't help but wonder if we're related.

I do have at least one relative in the story. Goodwin talks about how John brown's exploits fanned the flame for the abolitionists. (He wanted to set up a community that would be a safehaven for runaway slaves. To get arms to defend it, he raided the armory at Harpors Ferry. After a bloody battle, he was captured, and eventually hung. But before that, he was kept in prison for a long time, and reporters were allowed free access to him. Ebvery day, his stiorring speeches against slavery would be reported in Northern newspapers, and it was those speeches, rather than his actual accomplishments, that roused anti-slavery feeling to a fever pitch. Later, Union soldiers would march to the tune of "John brown's Body".

Since PatH and I are distantly related to Brown (we are his fourth cousens four times removed), I have always been interested in him. It's ironic that Goodwin says Herman Melville wrote a eulogy on his death, because it always struck me that Brown was the opposite of Captain Ahab in Moby Dick. Melville has Ahab saying "All my means are sane: omly my ends are mad". It seems to me that John Brown could have said "All my ends are sane, only my means are mad".

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: March 19, 2009, 11:44:29 AM »
It was Mark Twain who said "We have the best politicians money can buy" wasn't it?  And Khrushchev said, "Politicians are the same the world over; they promise to build a bridge even where there is no river."  We could go on and on, and they do!!!!

They are fodder for the comedians, for the witty.  I liked the one you quoted, Pat!

Thanks for those sites, JEAN, I clicked on them.  I've been to many of them, actually, most of the battlefields which my husband wanted to see.  He was so fascinated by their weaponry, their guns and their strategies.  How warfare has changed - and changed again in our lifetimes!  I am going to the Hudson River Valley in May for more glimpses of the early 1900's history and beyond.

I am so glad you have the book, so much more satisfying to have it in your hand and do read the chapters we are on and continue posting.  It's fun to discuss history with others who want to learn more and discuss all these weighty matters that faced these people and our country.

JOAN, here is something just for you and Pat

                  http://www.contemplator.com/america/johnbrown.html

Now I sat here and sang all the verses after I downloaded the midi, but I needed someone to harmonize!!!  Let's all stand up and sing!!

---------------------------------

We complain about Congress, its bipartianship, its agonizing debates, their committees, but they are necessary don't you agree?  The two-party system compromises until usually they get it right. 

There is reference in these pages (and I'm not sure where) that the Democratic Party wanted to nationalize slavery.  I think it was about where Lincoln was giving his House Divided speech - I'll look it up!  IMAGINE!  And I think Chief Justice Tanney was a part of that?  We must look it up. 

They couldn't compromise???

Are any of you amazed at the scant amount of knowledge available for AL's vice-president, Hannibal Hamlin whom L chose?  All of a sudden he just appeared in the book - even in the Index there is little and, of course, he was succeeded by Andrew Johnson in AL's second term and became president.  I must look up Hamlin on Google.  Obama certainly didn't follow that example for his VP.

Why did those Southern States walk out of their convention?  If they had stayed and compromised, might the war never have happened?  What could they have done rather than secede?





 

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: March 19, 2009, 01:19:35 PM »
"Let's all stand up and sing"  No fear, Ella, I'll be singing it the rest of the day--listen hard and you can probably hear me.  I prefer Julia Ward Howe's words, though.  I have a taste for overblown heroics, and stuff like "Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel" is pretty good.

As children, we knew another version:
"(John Brown's baby had a cold upon its chest)3x
So they rubbed it with camphorated oil."

This was sung with gestures--rocking your arms  for "baby", coughing for "cold", pointing to your chest, rubbing, holding your nose for "camphorated oil", etc.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: March 19, 2009, 03:59:06 PM »
Oh, I never heard that one, Pat!

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2009, 04:04:31 PM »
Tra la la, I'm still singing.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: March 19, 2009, 04:05:48 PM »
The Dred Scott Decision was the culmination of a series of events in the slavery-anti-slavery struggle, mostly going farther and farther to favor the South.

Originally, under the Constitution and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, slavery was permitted in the original States, and forbidden in the Northwest Territory or states formed from it.  As more land was acquired, there were fights over whether slavery would be permitted there.  The Missouri Compromise forbade slavery north of 36 deg 30 min except for the state of Missouri, the Wilmot Proviso, if it had passed, would have forbidden slavery in the land acquired in the Mexican-American War, the Kansas-Nebraska Act nullified the Missouri Compromise by allowing these two territories to choose to become either slave or free states.

This wasn’t solely a battle about the morality of slavery.  It was a struggle for personal opportunity, territory, and political power.  If slavery were banned in the territories, Southerners would be at a disadvantage in the big homesteading move west, for new chances and a better life.  If all the new states were free, the South would become a smaller and smaller minority in Congress, and be unable to defend any of their regional interests.

The Dred Scott decision tipped the balance hugely.  Using some dubious legal arguments, it essentially said that a slave was not a person, but property, and since the Constitution says that no man should be deprived of his property, by implication it allowed slavery everywhere.  The decision greatly emboldened the South in pushing for their demands.

This doesn’t answer Ella’s question about the splitting of the parties, but I wanted to put a summary in somewhere.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2009, 04:44:11 PM »
I see my Northern bias is showing in that last post.  A Northerner would say that the South kept adding areas of slavery.  A Southerner would say they were maintaining parity as the nation expanded.

JoanK

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2009, 07:53:54 PM »
We're proposing a discussion for May of "Three Cups of Tea". I've started the book, and had a hard time putting it down. It's the story of a "climbing bum", who got lost coming down from a failed attempt to climb K2, and wound up in a Pakistani village so small, it wasn't on the map. When he left, he promised he would come back and build a school. He wound up building over 100 schools for girls, in the area controlled by the Taliban.

If you're interested, come let us know in "Proposed discussions" or here:

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=57.0

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: March 20, 2009, 11:46:29 AM »
When Lincoln came to DC before the Inauguration, he stayed at the Willard Hotel.  The hotel is still there, though it looks different now.  An inn was started on the site in 1847, and expanded a lot in 1858.  The building was hugely remodeled at the turn of the century, reopening in 1904.  When I was growing up it was quite a showcase, with a gigantic, ornate lobby, with little lounges off it that were good places to meet people.  It was closed from 1968-86, but restored to its former grandeur, snd is now on the National Register of Historic Places.

Many presidents stayed there, Julia Ward Howe wrote "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" there, Martin Luther King wrote his "I Have a Dream" speech there, etc.  I couldn't find a good picture of it, but here is the rather dry site where I checked my facts.  If you scroll down below the opening letter, you get a listing of historic sites, and the Willard is under "Downtown".

http://www.nps.gov/history/NR/travel/wash/text.htm#willard

Jonathan

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: March 20, 2009, 12:01:56 PM »
That's me, the 'climbing bum' in this TOR discussion, lost in the stormy politics of pre-Civil War America. Thanks, Pat, for the review of the 
'series of events in the slavery-anti-slavery struggle', culminating in the Dred Scott discussion, with the South satisfied with its use of a branch of goverment, the Supreme Court,  in resolving the slavery issue in its favor, and the North, aghast at the abuse of judicial power. John Brown was, perhaps, only the most radical of the abolitionists who looked to exteme measures to free the slaves.

Take Frances Seward for example, the wife of Lincoln's chief rival. How hard Seward worked to elect Lincoln. One of his many speeches however disappointed some supporters, who felt the speech too full of compromise and concession. At this point Frances weighed in with a letter to her husband:

'Eloquent as your speech was it fails to meet the entire approval of those who love you best...Compromises based on the idea that the preservation of the Union is more important than the liberty of nearly 4,000,000 human beings cannot be right. The alteration of the Constitution to perpetuate slavery - the enforcement of a law to recapture a poor, suffering fugitive...these compromises cannot be approved by God or supported by good men....

'No one can dread war more than I do...yet I could not today assent to the perpetuation or extension of slavery to prevent war....' TOR, page 303.

I wonder how she felt later when it became apparent what the cost would be. Even her husband came wiithin a hairs breadth of falling a victim to the violence.

It occurred to me last night, watching Obama on the Leno show, what a tense period it was for both him and Lincoln, between election and inauguration. For Lincoln the country was coming apart. For Obama the American Dream was turning into a nightmare.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: March 20, 2009, 12:21:44 PM »
It occurred to me last night, watching Obama on the Leno show, what a tense period it was for both him and Lincoln, between election and inauguration. For Lincoln the country was coming apart. For Obama the American Dream was turning into a nightmare.

Yes, good point, Jonathan, and they were both in the frustrating position of having to watch the outgoing president make decisions regarding a rapidly developing situation that they would then have to deal with.  Lincoln and his supporters did a good deal behind the scenes to keep the country from destabilizing more before the inauguration.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: March 20, 2009, 12:40:50 PM »
That speech of Seward's lasted nearly two hours.  It reached Frances in Auburn by telegraph hours after it was delivered.  (p 303)  Pity the poor telegraph operator having to send it!

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: March 20, 2009, 03:44:14 PM »
JONATHAN, you stayed up to hear Obama and Leno go at it!!!  So who got the best dig in?  It seems Obama can hold his own from what I have heard, but the commentators are after him already.  His huge package deal and Congress! 

As PAT said, Lincoln had a great deal on his shoulders too - A GREAT DEAL????  THE WHOLE COUNTRY was going down the tube and Lincoln was determined to somehow hold it together.  What a terrible decision!

What kind of compromise would have worked to avoid war?  Lincoln and others had tried to appease the South in numerous ways, but decisions about slavery had to be made and, as it turned out, it took several years after the war before the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendment abolished it forever.  The South would never have voted for them in 1860.

What kind of state/nations would have evolved if the war had not been won by the North?  Would the Confederacy have held together.  It's something to think about.  Little countries here and there in the south; we would all have to have passports to enter.  Little Europe!

mabel1015j

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: March 20, 2009, 04:52:10 PM »
I can't help but think about Obama's reading this book thru the election and the aftermath. As i read about the way L handled the other candidates, to get them to support him and the party, i think Obama must have used AL's guidance, especially in talking to Hillary. I just can't imagine the depression one must feel after having worked so hard to try to get the nominiation, or to win an election. Of course, Hillary worked even harder than S, C, and Bates. I don't know how she stood up there w/ the tv cameras running and smiled and smiled and then was so gracious. She had been thru many elections before, maybe that helped.

Speaking of the telegraph......AL was able to keep in touch w/ what was going on in the states because of the tlgph. I believe he must have been the first nominee to be able to do that. I mentioned before that w/ the tlgph, it was the first time in history that on a general basis a msg could travel faster than a person. I guess you could say smoke signals and drum msgs could do that, but they were severely limited. It must have seemed like a miracle for information to be able to cross the country in about 24 hours, or less. Imagine what it did for commerce.

How long we in the United States have been enthalled by the "frontiersman," "a man of the people," "an ordinary man." It is interesting how we want our president to be someone like us during the campaign, but much smarter, more sophisticated, able to handle very complex issues, always make the right decision, once they are in office. That "John Wayne" type has had an appeal for a long time. Think of all the stories the country has loved about the "frontiersman" - Andrew Jackson, DAvey Crockett, Daniel Boone, Abraham Lincoln. In recent yrs we've been "sold"  ordinary-man-Truman, the ranchman Reagan, the peanut farmer, the man from small town Hope, the man who cuts down trees, cleans out brush. We've not "bought" the smart guys except by accident, in most cases. And Lincoln was "selling" himself 100 yrs before "The Selling of the President, 1960." And politicians had to careful what they said then also,  AL not wanting to answer questions, but pointing to the party platform. He had a few lapses in judgement - another similarity to Obama - and all the others. It's hitting us  in the face today.

pg 267 -"many Republicans remained hostile to immigrants and their support was essential." How many times can we say "the more things change............."
......jean

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: March 21, 2009, 10:51:53 AM »
Hi JEAN!   I liked your remark about the "ordinary" man, the man of the people.  However, I would say that our President Obama is an "extraordinary" man wouldn't you?  One that will be historical forever.   

Seward seems to have had all the requisites for the office of the presidency and yet..............  why did Lincoln win?  ?  Our book mentions people listening with "rapt" attention to Seward's speeches, tears in their eyes.  I thought his idea of a Constitutional Convention a good one, didn't you?

Would that have produced a solution to the division over slavery?  Avoided war?

Why did Lincoln win I wonder.  Who would I have voted for?  If I had lived in the North?  If I had lived in the South?


Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: March 21, 2009, 11:29:48 AM »
This book, about the loss of culture because of the Civil War, was nominated for a National Book Award.  It looks very interesting, I intend to getit at my library next visit:

This Republic of Suffering by Drew Gilpin Faust, who is President of Harvard University and who holds the Lincoln Chair in History.

http://www.nationalbook.org/nba2008_nf_faust.html

The review: "More soldiers lost their lives in the American Civil War than in all American conflicts combined from the Revolution to the Korean War. Drew Gilpin Faust's highly original, deeply moving account explains the impact of this tremendous loss on American culture. Attending to politics, poetry and rituals of burial, remembrance and mourning, Faust reveals the way that the Civil War Dead came to represent both the ongoing hostility between the North and the South as well as the vehicle through which a new national unity could be imagined."


PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: March 21, 2009, 01:14:51 PM »
Goodwin says on p. 346 that if you lost the same percentage of today's population it would be more than 5 million!  It's hard to imagine such devastation.

Jonathan

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: March 21, 2009, 02:32:10 PM »
Politics is such a fascinating business, and I suppose it's just that, that inspired Goodwin to write Team Of Rivals. Its subtitle, after all, is The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln, and Goodwin piles on the instances of how hard Lincoln worked at it. And got so many others to work for him. So there may be a few insights in the book that might interest  even the professional politician. Like Obama.

Can there be any doubt that Hillary is Obama's Seward? With her tremendous number of supporters, just like Seward, how could Obama neglect to get her on side. The rivals all had their numerous supporters who would have wanted to see their man as part of the administration. Even that 'crook' Simon Cameron of Pennsylvania had enough political clout to get himself a secretaryship. As it turned out he was given the most difficult job of all...raising an army from scratch. It's not difficult to imagine the graft and corruption creeping into the process. Was it fair to blame it all on him? It wasn't pretty, but he got the job done.

Back to Seward, fine presidential material himself. A worthy rival. But just look how Lincoln handles a potential threat to himself politically. He makes Seward Secretary of State. And how could Goodwin resist quoting Lincoln's own words in giving Seward the job:

'Governor Seward, there is one part of my work that I shall have to leave largely to you. I shall have to depend upon you for taking care of these matters of foreign affairs, of which I know so little, and with which I reckon you are familiar.' page 316.

In other words, leave domestic affairs to me.

The Faust book, This Republic of Suffering, does look interesting. It seems to me the private, civil deaths in the book have  as much impact on the reader as the battlefield casualties. There's hardly a major character who does not suffer the loss of a loved one. Chase losing three wives. The Lincolns losing two young sons. Seward losing his teenage daughter, Fanny.

But it was Lincoln  who gave the soldier's death a profound meaning with his Gettysburg address. Those words were worth dying for.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: March 21, 2009, 02:33:29 PM »
Pat, that is so costly in human lives isn't it?  I wonder if that estimate includes all the wounded?  Here is her statement:

"A war  had begun that no one imagined would last four years and cost greater than 600,00 lives-more than the cumulative total of all our other wars, from the Revolution to Iraq."

And then your statistic.

I doubt if any one, any country, any enemy considers how long their war might last and cost in sacrifice of lives?

Out of curiousity, I looked up WWII:  "The U.S., which had no significant civilian losses, sustained 292,131 battle deaths and 115,187 deaths from other causes." (Wikipedia)

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: March 21, 2009, 02:38:56 PM »
"Can there be any doubt that Hillary is Obama's Seward?"  - JONATHAN

No doubt with me.  Obama's campaign strategy and presidency all resemble Lincoln; and had the war not intervened and his assassination occurred would have continued no doubt!

Obama is on his own, and flying all about the town,  and, as you said, JONATHAN, his nightmare has begun.  We all wish him success!

mabel1015j

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: March 21, 2009, 03:17:41 PM »
Ella - the 600,000 does not include the injured, that is the number of battlefireld deaths. I'm sure there were many more deaths whose cause could be attributed to the war if we projected out over a decade or more.

W.D. Brand was just on BookTV talking about his book "The Age of Gold." It is about the 1849 gold rush to Calif. He suggests that the Civil War may not have happened if there had been no gold rush. People had been flowing so slowly into the territories that there was not a great concern about slavery in the territories and the issue had been handled w/ a variety of compromises - as we know. Many in the North were not very concerned about the issue.


However, when 10's of thousands of people swarmed into CAlif and then a constitution was written for the state that excluded slavery, that was the impetus - according to Brand - for the South to get worried and forged the Fugitive Slave Act. It put many northerners in the position of having to apprehend and turn over escaped slaves, and sometimes people who had never been slaves. It put the slavery issue right into the faces of many northerners who hadn't paid much attention before. Also, as people journeyed west they almost all traveled thru Missouri, a slave state, seeing slave auctions and the treatment of slaves, that they had not witnessed before, stirring up the abolitionist movement, pushing the two sides to extremes and heightening the importance of whether the new states would be free or slave states.

A curious issue for me was on pg 273 there is the statement about the state elections in New England  being in September and the Indiana and Pa elections in Oct. I guess they were speaking only of the congressional elections, but isn't it curious that they were held in other months than the general election?

I also tho't it interesting that DKG includes C.F. Adams, Jr's comment about SEward's drinking not seeming to impair him, Adams coming from a family of alcholics that would catch his attention, i guess. (pg 269)....................jean

JoanK

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: March 21, 2009, 10:25:10 PM »
JONATHAN: this has nothing to do with Team of Rivals, but you reminded me that you're a climbing bum. Do you remember several years ago, we were in a discussion about a climber in South America, who fell down a crevasse, and crawled his way back to camp? A very good book, and I want to recommend it in "Three Cups of Tea", but I can't remember the name or author.

JoanK

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: March 21, 2009, 10:29:53 PM »
Certainly, Obama couldn't have guessed that there would be such a parallel with Lincoln in the period between election and inaugaration and just after assuming office! Another parallel I see in the new section, people are immediately criticizing him after he takes office for not making things "all right again".

Everyone is still trying to placate the South, especially Seward. But each attempt fails in the South and infuriates the North.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: March 22, 2009, 09:29:38 AM »
Mabel, that's a convincing case for the rapid settling of California setting things up for the Civil War.

I wondered about the earlier state elections, too, especially since the outcome of the congressional races influenced the later vote for President.

Doesn't the campaign style of the time seem weird?  You don't appear yourself, you just let others say what a good President you would be.  Lincoln carried it to extremes, refusing to issue any statements and standing on the record of his published speeches.  It was a smart move, because he knew anything he said would be picked apart and distorted.

PatH

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: March 22, 2009, 09:39:29 AM »
We're ready to add Chapters 12-15 to the discussion, but that doesn't mean we have to stop talking about the earlier chapters.  It looks like we still have things to say.

12 starts with the Inauguration; then we go on to getting the administration going, firing on Fort Sumter, preparations for war, the battles of Bulls Run, in Missouri and in Tennessee, where at last we win some.  We end with the death of Willie Lincoln at the end of chapter 15.  These chapters read fairly fast, especially 14 and 15.

Some questions will go up later today.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: March 22, 2009, 10:29:10 AM »
JEAN, that is such an interesting remark about the relationship between the 1849 Gold Rush (which most school children know about) and the Civil War.  I have never heard that before, but I can see that as a factor; furthermore I didn't know California had made a constitution excluding slavery.  When was their constitution enacted?

I could look it up, of course, but don't have the time right now.

lucky

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: March 22, 2009, 10:46:28 AM »
The question “Was there any possible way the war could have been avoided,” raises a number of important points.  I believe all wars can be avoided.  Kearns doesn’t go into the economic underpinnings of the war but they are there. There are always those who gain economically and those who lose economically from war.  If the powers that be had known that this war would last four years perhaps they would have decided to divide the U.S. into two countries.  If they had known the cost of lives  (over 600,000) and the maiming of those who survived they would have thought differently.  There was a time when England seriously thought of entering the war on the side of the south.  Because of the war a serious recession had hit the textile industries.   In 1860 Liverpool, the main source of imported cotton for the British textile industry, then the mainstay of the Victorian industrial economy, came from the south.  The Confederates believed that because of this, England would under pressure come into the war on the side of the south.  To ensure this, the Confederates imposed an embargo on all cotton imports to Liverpool and consequently cotton prices soared, mills closed and one quarter of the population of Lancashire was on poor relief. The English called it the cotton famine.  Historians believe that if the English had come to the aid of the south, the south would have been the victor.
What was really accomplished by this war?  The south was destroyed and generations of enmity existed between north and south that exploded with the Civil Rights movement.  The slaves were freed, but in the south their status for generations was slave-like, living as sharecroppers.    They lived in poverty for generations.  In the north they were discriminated against.  Nicholas Lehman’s excellent book “The Promise Land” is an excellent source on black migration to Chicago (the Promised Land).  I believe that slavery would eventually have been peaceably phased out.  Brazil, I believe, was last nation in the Western Hemisphere to outlaw slavery in the 1890’s.  From many of the sources on southern slavery, one can extrapolate enough information to determine that slavery was not economically feasible for the south.  White labor was a better and cheaper source of labor than the cost and care of slaves. 
Lincoln did not have much concern for the welfare of the slaves.  In l863 he issued his Emancipation Proclamation.  At a Emancipation Jubilee at Cooper Union he proposed that the blacks leave voluntarily.  In 1862 he had promoted a plan to transport 5,000 blacks to Ile a Vache, a small island off the coast of Haiti.  Most the blacks rejected this colonization plan.  The black citizens of Queens county New York notified him that America was their native land and they had no intention of leaving it.  Emancipation spurred them to join the army and fight for the total liberation of slaves not emigration. 

Jonathan

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: March 22, 2009, 12:13:31 PM »
Joan, you  must be thinking of Joe Simpson's book, Touching The Void. I remember it well. Who could forget a tale such as that? It would be a good one to recommend to a group thinking of reading Three Cups of Tea. I've started reading it myself. Imagine spending every dollar on climbing equipment and airfares to get you to the high peaks on our globe. And when not climbing, using his car for living accommodations. With a rented storage unit for parking his stuff. Getting lost on the glacier below K2 could happen easily enough, by wandering off onto a spur. One can't always have ones wits about one as one plods along hour after hour. It certainly turned his life around. I think the book is getting more  attention all the time. Good luck.

Seward plays a curious role during those months before the outbreak of hostilities. A year or two earlier it was he who was talking publicly about the 'irrepressible conflict'. Now, when it seems imminent, with his southern senate colleagues packing up and saying goodbye, Seward becomes conciliatory and influential with Lincoln to be likewise in his inaugural address. The first attempt by Seward to determine Lincoln's course of action. Seward loved his Union as much as Lincoln, but it wasn't Seward who was about to take the oath to preserve it. An oath is a pretty grim business.

mabel1015j

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: March 22, 2009, 03:47:24 PM »
These comments are a little behind the schedule.

A couple times in chapter's 10 and 11 DKG speaks to the responsibility that L begins to feel.  Right at the beginning of Ch 10 she says quoting Gideon Welles about election night, "The excitement which had kept him up through the campaign had passed away .....and he was oppresssed w/ the load of responsibility that was upon him." I felt that Obama was feeling the same way on election night in his speech in Grant Park. He seemed so subdued. I at first wondered if there had been assassination warnings, what w/ the glass walls around him, but then i tho't maybe all pres-elects have a moment when they say "OMG, now i'm responsible for the country!"

I think we may have AL to thank for something i never tho't of before - politicians giving shorter speeches!...................Seward's speech to Congress was 2 hours!..........remember Bill Clinton being berated in - was it 1988 - for his speech at the convention when he was still Gov of ARk and he talked for 55 minutes? Maybe after AL's wonderful, concise prose, other politicians decided they didn't need to speechify for such a long time!?!

700 people?!? the number that came to the L house the night before they left for Washington.............my first tho't was "how to you get 700 people in that house, even a house w/ "twin parlors?" My second tho't was "how do  you provide food and drink for 700 people in your house?"

DKG says ML was so excited to go to NYC to shop. "After years of making do on a limited budget, this woman who was raised in a wealthy household took great pleasure in acquiring everything she wanted, even to the point of outspending her wealthier sisters."  I know she spent a huge amt of money and bo't way more than she needed, but I didn't think she was on such a limited budget before they were elected. I remember hearing some L expert talk about the fact that L was the atty for one of the railroads and made very good money and was one of the wealthiest men in Illinois at the time." Do any of you have any info about their financial situation?.............jean

JoanK

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: March 22, 2009, 09:08:28 PM »
Jonathan: thanks -- that's the book! Have you signed up for the Three Cups discussion in May yet?

Yes, Seward seems to always be making speeches that don't reflect what seem to be his true opinions. Before the election, he made such ringing anti-slavery speeches that abolitionists saw him as their flag-bearer, now he seems to be more concilitory than he really feels. No wonder neither side were convinced.

MABEL: I'm confused about their financial status, too. Since Lincoln always traveled so simply and dressed so poorly, I think of them as still scraping along. But he was the kind of person who would have always done that.

I have heard comments to the effect that Mary was a shopaholic. If so, whatever their budget was, she would have stretched it, and been limited.

What if the South had seceded, and the North had done nothing -- let them go? What would have happened then?

JoanK

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Re: Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: March 22, 2009, 09:42:56 PM »
I don't know why I've always been fascinated by the Civil War. Maybe because, growing up in Washington DC, I always felt surrounded by it. As a young adult, I visited all the nearby battlefields, famous and obscure, and could have told you (then, not now) how each battle worked out. Whereas I found out by accident that two places I had lived had had signifigant battles in the Revolution, and I had had no idea!

But I don't think I'm alone. This war and period has a unique fascination for many. Do any of you feel it?