Presidents Club, The by Nancy Gibbs and Michael Duffy~September Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

SEPTEMBER BOOK CLUB ONLINE  

As we head into another overheated and polarizing presidential campaign, at least it's a comfort knowing that former presidents have learned to mostly put aside partisan politics and work together.  Thanks to the brilliant investigative work of Time magazine's Nancy Gibbs and Michael Duffy, The Presidents Club uncovers a powerful secret fraternity, in which ex-leaders stay in the game by counseling inexperienced successors. - USA Today

Realizing that membership in the Presidents Club bestows a singular perspective can help explain certain minor mysteries of our political life. How, for example, could Clinton ever forgive George H.W. Bush, who in the 1992 campaign all but charged him with being a traitor, if not a Soviet stooge, for visiting Russia as a college student and protesting the Vietnam War “from foreign soil”? Why has Obama, whose presidential quest embodied a repudiation of everything George W. Bush stood for, heard scarcely a grumble about his policies from his once-belligerent predecessor? The answer lies in what Kennedy said to Arthur Schlesinger when asked to rank the presidents: “Only the president himself can know what his real pressures and his real alternatives are.” It’s a sentiment that virtually every president voices at one point or another in this book. - Washington Post

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

Chapters 1-9           9/1 through 9/8
Chapters 10-14       9/9 through 9/15
Chapters 15-19       9/16 through 9/22
Chapters 20-26       9/23 through 9/30

 
Related Links: Secrets of the Presidents Club - Video;  
Book TV with Nancy Gibbs and Michael Duffy;

Discussion Leaders:  Ella and Harold

[Ella Gibbons]

"I'm not so sure we are actually even seeing "the club" in these past chapters- BELLEMARIE

And I'm not so sure what exactly "the club" is - a political history of the presidency that HAROLD mentioned is more in line with the theme of the book, but titling a club has some merit -  one way of looking at it.  A club has members and the former presidents are all members, I suppose.  It's stretching..........

Still, it's a very interesting read, I love the history of it all.   I lived through these years.

As CALLIE and BELLEMARIE stated it would have been shorter if the authors just wrote about the relationships of members to each other and to the president.

JOANP - Welcome!   Happy you got your book!!! You are coming in halfway through the book and Nixon is still on stage.   I'm just amazed at the material on Nixon.  Personally, I wanted nothing more to do with that president once he left offfice.  Those awful tapes, our local paper published them, or parts of them, I can't remember; but they downgraded the Office of the President.  I was ashamed of them.

I agree that history will treat Nixon with a bit more respect, but he will always be tainted by Watergate, etc. etc.  I doubt that the club, even if there were some, would have prevented his deviousness.

This book is not soft on Nixon, do you think?  

  

[HaroldArnold]

 I now think the author's inclusion of the detailed pre club history of each president was necessary to prepare us reader's for understanding how each of them functioned as members of the club.  In particular I was surprized at nixon's come back after his forced resignation in disgrace.  In the club he may have been the most persistently active member actively seeking out the attention of the sitting President. In particular the sitting President could not ignor his several trips as ex President to China and Russia.

[mabel1015j]

I liked the way the authors characterized the JFK Profile in Courage award to G Ford at the end of chapter 14 "It was almost as if the Kennedys had issued Ford a pardon for pardoning Nixon." i remember that ceremony and thought it was very nice of them to give him that award. I didn't realize how controversial it had been.

Nixon's return to China in 1976...........Nixon just couldn't play nice, could he? He just could not be a team player, even for the Republicans. he was so self-centered.

Re: Reagan/Ford..........I am wondering - in order to run for president, do you have to have a huge ego and a bushel-full of pride? Generally to say "s/he had too much pride" means a person is preserving their own dignity from doing something stupid, but with these guys, i think we can see how "pride" just means "highly sensitive to slights." Not that they didn't need to be cautious about the slings and arrows of the other guy, but "pride" seems to get in the way of sensible thinking. Obama and Hillary Clinton seem to have resisted continuing the pattern. Obama being willing to offer his opponent the Sec of State job -ala Lincoln - and Hillary being willing to work FOR Obama. What a change from these stories we're reading about.

Jean

[JoanP]

I've just finished Chapter 15 - intending to look for the authors' tendancy to stray far from "the club"...  I can see what Harold is talking about.  All of the material in Chapter 15 was interesting - and as Harold says, "necessary to prepare us to understand how each funcionned as members of the club.

I have no complaints about straying too far afield so far...but I do get uncomfortable (and a bit annoyed)  when I read judgemental comments from the authors like this:

"Nixon was being his usual self-centered self."

I think it's one thing for us to reach such conclusions as Jean does -  after reading the facts, what took place, who said what, etc. But I'd prefer authors  leave that for us to decide after they provide the details. What do you think?  Should they give their own personal opinions - after digging up the facts? They did the hard work.  Do they deserve it to express their own opinions?  Am I being too critical?

[JoanP]

I'm totally dumbfounded reading about the interaction between Ford and Reagan - the trade-offs Reagan was willing to make to get Ford to agree to the Vice Presidential slot on the ticket!  Where was I?    Was everyone (but me) aware of all this?  If not, where did our authors pick up this detailed account of what Ford was demanding?

The real irony - neither of the two men wanted Ford on the ticket!  (Not Ford himself, who might have had the powers of a co-president!)

Jean, I think that both of them had their own very different reasons for naming Hillary  Secretary of State - but that our authors either decided not to go there, or the reasons were never made public.  Have you finished the book?  Perhaps this will be discussed at the end.

[mabel1015j]

No i haven't finished the book, just thinking about what has happened.

Joan, i agree about the authors personal opinions. Their "facts" can give the book direction that provides the reader w/ their opinions. But, it's their book, i guess they can write it the way they want.

Jean

[HaroldArnold]

In Chapter 16 the authors give an account of what is probably the most dangerous exposure that the Club members have been subject.  This was the 15,000 mile flight from Washington, D.C. to Cairo, Egypt in 1981 where ex-Presidents Ford, Nixon, and Carter with his wife, Rosalyn attended the funeral and internment of the assassinated Egyptian President Adwar Sadat .  Also aboard the 707 aircraft was the delegation chief, the Secretary of state; also the Secretary of Defense and a number of Senators and Representatives, and a large press corps contingent.  The trip was deemed too dangerous for the President or Vice President.  Our book describes flight and the interesting interaction of the three ex-Presidents as they probed for opportunities to promote their own particular interest. 

Regarding the exposure of the three to physical dangers, there was a tense moment during the ceremony that was resolved by the quick action of an Egyptian officer present.   The return trip gave the Press reporters present an opportunity to interview Ford and Carter.  Nixon was not present on the return flight since he had left the group to fly on to his own previously planned visit to Saudi Arabia.

[Ella Gibbons]

1981 - and here we are in 2012, some 30 years later and Middle East problems are still plaguing, much the same problems; violence, Palestine/Israel relationships.  Seems as though we should have made some progress in all the time toward  a peaceful settlement.  It remains a hotbed to this day doesn't it?  Comparisons in history over time, we are not pointing the way to a peaceful world for out children.  

JOANP - There are NOTES in the back of the book as to sources, but I agree there are opinions now and then of the authors.  I think they have a right after extensive research to do this; TIME magazine is noted for the opinions of the editors.  I'll look for critical reviews of the book later.

As HAROLD stated, an historic trip to Egypt; I remember Anwar Sadat as  force for peace in that troubled region; I was impressed with him, the Camp David Peace Accords at the time.

JEAN, I agree with your comments about Nixon, so intelligent, so well informed and so nasty in so many ways.   And here he is still making headlines (as he intended to do) with his trip to Moxcow.  Still and all, I enjoy reading about his exploits.   "A first rate intellect but a third-rate person." - H.W. Bush.

 President Reagan dreamed of a nuclear-free world and we are still in fear of it in Iran.  We all have our particular memories of each president.  I wasn't fond of Reagan for president but I will never forget "Mr. Gorbachev tear down that wall" ending the Soviet's era of great power in the world.

 

[bellamarie]

I just finished ch 15 and my mouth is hanging open at even the remote consideration and possibility of a co-presidency.  Why on earth would Reagan even approach the idea, and more so, why on earth was Ford playing Reagan?   Ford would never accept VP after being the President.  I have to say the entire negotiations of the idea was weird for me. 

IMO  Hillary and Obama had and still does have bad blood amongst them.  She was pushed out of that convention by the DNC.  They had chosen Obama for the ticket, and she was not to be a part of the equation.  I worked on her campaign, and there were rumors before she bowed out, that she was being pressured to give the spot to Obama.  When Diane Feinstien held that late night meeting with Hillary & Obama, and the next day she announces her withdrawal and her support for Obama I was in shock.  She was leading in the polls.  I have NO doubt she would have won that election had the DNC not split her electoral votes from Florida and Michigan.  I don't for one second think Bill or Hillary have forgiven the DNC or Obama for what they did to get him elected, and I suspect when history is written years from now we will learn so much more about the private deal that was made that night at Feinstein's.  Secretary of State was part of the deal, but I am thinking they promised to back her in her run in 2016 after Obama has his 8 yrs.  Afterall, the Democrats would be able to claim history making with the first black president, and then the first woman president. That is in part what turned me away from the Democratic party and made me declare myself an Independent.  I could never see myself a loyalist to one party ever again. Egads....sorry for getting off the beaten path, Jean, you got me remembering how I felt about all of this....lolol

Politics are a game, just as Reagan and Ford were playing a game with each other.....NO way would Reagan share his duties as president with Ford, and NO way would Ford ever go to VP after being President. 

So let the games begin....or should I say....continue.   lolol

Nixon just does not want to go away, he is like this annoying kid on the block, who no one really likes and wants to run in their house when they see him coming down the block.  Ughhh...back to my reading.

I really don't mind authors giving their personal opinions or comments, it does not in any way influence my own, while reading the book. 

Ciao for now~  

[mabel1015j]

Isn't it interesting how once Ford and Carter were no longer competing in the game that they could see their  commonalities and become good friends. There must be a lesson to be learned there.

I understand, Bellemarie, about a deal of some kind being made w/ Hillary. Where i see a new positive behavior is that Hillary and Obama seem to have been able to look at the positives of each other and continue to work together after a hard-fought campaign. I wonder how much that has to do with their being of different genders? If it was Barack and Bill would it work? I don't think so, men seem to have much stronger competition and defenses against each other - just by nature?

I wish the authors had included more about the wives and the Club, but maybe that's another book. I think it is no longer, if it ever was, possible to talk about presidential administrations w/out including the mportance of the wives.

Jean

[JoanP]

Interesting that Roslyn insisted on accompanying "Jimmy" on that plane with Dick and Jerry to Sadat's funeral, wasn't it?  She seems always at his side.  Sometimes I think she's there to protect him.  As I was reading the description of Air Force One - it sounded as if it was on its last legs.  I'm hoping it's been replaced? Does anyone know?  

The passengers were cramped, close together for many hours on that trip  - except for Haig - who refused to give up his space to Roslyn and Jimmy.  What a guy!
So  what was the significance of that trip abroad in cramped quarters? It seemed to me that Jerry and Jimmy found they had more in common than they had thought - and their warmed up relationship would continue.  Not so much with Nixon -   He wanted so much to be liked, walking up and down the aisles shaking hands...and then he disappeared and didn't make the return trip with the others.

It seems the necessary ingredient was COMMUNICATION.

So what was it that brought Nixon back into the club?  Was it Bill Clinton?

[Ella Gibbons]

Politics are a game, just as Reagan and Ford were playing a game with each other.....NO way would Reagan share his duties as president with Ford, and NO way would Ford ever go to VP after being President. 

So let the games begin....or should I say....continue.   lolol


Ciao for now~  

[Ella Gibbons]

A game, BELLEMARIE, I know, but such a game!  The older I get the more frightened I am of the position the USA holds in tshe world.  Our decisions can affect the future for decades.

HI JOANP, didn't they call Reagan the Great Communicator?   That is, when they didn't call him sthe Gipper.  Maybe my memory is faulty.

If President Nixon was not a joiner, neither was Jimmy Carter.  But the difference in character is like night and day. 

Did they do justice to Carter; it seemed very negative to me.  He did not appeal to the public except to  the conservatives; couldn't make speecheshave ; but his attitude towards the Gulf War (pg.406) was my own.  We should not entered the Middle East; the Persian Gulf War should never have happened.  Trouble every since.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTINUING COMMENTS, I love reading them, I love your interest in the book that Harold and I chose for a nonfiction discussion.

Do you read many nonfiction books?  And, if so, what kind?

If you were writing a biography of a president, which of these we have discussed would you choose?

[HaroldArnold]

We have had an interesting burst of activity today.  Thank you all.   Regarding Ford, I think he was lucky in being limited to his short 30 month term during which the nation pretty much recovered from the Nixon fiasco.  I firmly believe the pardon was the best since it cut short the Watergate problem.  Thereafter like a long inactive volcano, it remained a historical scar, but the nation move on with its many active issues through the remaining months of Ford and Carter terms. 

Bellamarie, it may be a bit early for a full discussion of Obama and Hillary but I will note Hilary is certainly the one who got the WORK out of the arrangement.  I suspect she has come to be the most traveled Secretary of State throughout the nearly 3 years since she took office.   I too was impressed with her 2008 campaign that suddenly faded with Obama’s surge in the early summer.    It would have been interesting with her as President in the Whitehouse and Bill as -  -  -  -  would it have been “first Gentleman”?  I am sure you had a great experience working for her, and great experiences are always welcome here.

Jean and Joan regarding Ford and Carter the author’s noted the point that the Sadat Funeral trip did raise memory of the Ford/Carter campaign against one another that resulted in Ford’s defeat and Carter’s victory.  They seemed to see a cooling of the remaining animosity as the Flight progressed.   At least I got that impression.  Also I don’t think the 707 Aircraft that they traveled in was Air force One. I think it was an old 707 that happened to be available at the time.   I think Air Force One with its ultimate Communication Equipment Facilities including nuclear warfare computer capability must always be available should it be required by the President in a sudden war situation.

Thank you every one for the Interesting Comments you are making about the material in this book.  It makes an interesting story, doesn’t it?

[bellamarie]

Jean 

I understand, Bellemarie, about a deal of some kind being made w/ Hillary. Where i see a new positive behavior is that Hillary and Obama seem to have been able to look at the positives of each other and continue to work together after a hard-fought campaign. I wonder how much that has to do with their being of different genders? If it was Barack and Bill would it work? I don't think so, men seem to have much stronger competition and defenses against each other - just by nature?

I think the jury is still out, and I will wait for history to be written on the results of this relationship.  I sense its ALL smoke and mirrors.  The Clintons, be it male or female do not strike me as a forgiving politician.  Hillary is in the same league as the big boys, she is one of them, her gender has no baring.  IMO  LOLOL  I would LOVED to have seen her win, but now, not so much, she has been tainted, her spirit has been crushed.  When I see her now, she looks like an empty shell of a person.  I suppose the only thing that will bring back that sparkle in her eyes will be the birth of her first grandchild.  The glass ceiling was broken in a million pieces, along with her dreams of being the first woman president.  Bill knows this and makes nice with Obama, for the party's sake, and maybe, just maybe for the club's sake.

Yes, Harold, it may be a bit early to discuss the Clintons, but I could not resist replying. lolol  I can't wait to get to them because I seriously got so excited for politics with Bill & Hillary.  He came to my hometown and I went to see him speak when Hillary was still running, it was cold and raining and I stood in line to get in,  and oh how he could capture and audience......

Getting back to our most recent chapters....I am shocked at how much Reagan relied on Nixon.  Tricky Dick was not to be trusted.  I knew he was an awful person, but after finishing these chapters I am simply appalled with his underhanded actions.  He went to great lengths to get attention and stay involved with Russia.

So now my question is this....the book is titled "The President's Club" it seems to be more about Nixon and his personality, presidency and shenanigans.  The authors could have covered more on Ford or Carter, yet they seem enamored with Nixon.  Granted, he was like a bad virus that wouldn't go away, but do you think it was necessary to give him so much attention in the book?

Ella,

The older I get the more frightened I am of the position the USA holds in tshe world.  Our decisions can affect the future for decades.

I could not agree with  you more.  I fear the politicians, the congress, the house, the supreme court and the president are forgetting who they swore to serve.  The world does not see America as a strong force to be reckoned with.  When you owe trillions of dollars to China, who is the stronger nation? 

[threadheadnet]

The description of the Oct 1981 trip to Egypt was so vivid; did anyone find the transcript or audio of the Ford and Carter ruminations, aboard the 707 on the way back from Sadat's funeral? I found this piece describing the behaviors among Nixon, Ford, and Carter during that same trip
http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Article.aspx?id=167088

This book is making me think about each president handled loyalty (to personal values, country, peers, political party, family, office of the President). 
Kathleen

[Ella Gibbons]

"He (Nixon) went to great lengths to get attention and stay involved......" - JEAN.    Indeed he did and so did the editors!  Perhaps they might have had more material on Nixon than on the others?

And even on that trip to Egypt, Nixon was still attempting to gain publiclity for his many achievements in office, as was stated in  that video/essay KATHLEEN was kind enough to find for us.

President Ford - our gentlemen president:  I quote - "As he sat down Ford was heard to whisper into Kissinger’s ear, “Sometimes I wish I had never pardoned that son of a bitch.”

Thanks Kathleen!

All the pictures were good, weren't they?  Clinton looks so young, well, most of them do!  And to think that four of them are still living.  No one has proposed cutting perks for a former president.  Besides their exorbitant fees for giving speeches, untold board memberships, a pension, an office, a secretary, Secret Service.  One good reason to become a president - the benefits.

Carter goes rogue -  he wrote a letter clearly "lobbying foreign heads of states, and leaders of the countries on the U.N. Security Council , lobbying them to work against a sitting U.S. president as war loomed.  And from a former president of the USA that letter would have been opened and commented on. 

As I recall (and probably somewhere in this book it is stated) that Bush went to war in Iraq without approval of the U.N.

Trusting memory here, am I right?  Is it illegal for the president to declare war?

(my eyesight due to aging and needful of a cornea transplant soon) is not very good and I am probably making many grammatical errors, please pardon.  I have my computer practically sitting on my lap)

[HaroldArnold]

I have observed that several recent participants, myself included, have made recent posts noting an individual club member’s special interest.   Such a special interest tends to trigger a particular activity relative to the club,most often promoting his individual special interest.   Some members had more reason than others and as a result were more active than others.  Nixon certainly falls into this category and in fact often succeeded in achieving what might described as the sitting Presidents go to Guy among the other members. 

I want to wait until next week to say more on Nixon’s relation with Bill Clinton.  For now let us just note that Nixon was making progress in achieving a measure of redemption through making is considerable experience in foreign affairs refreshed by contemporary travel available to several receptive sitting Presidents.   

[bellamarie]

Ella, I haven't gotten up to the Bush/Iraq chapter, so I can't comment on if they explain if indeed he went to war without the UN's approval.  I do know their was a vote taken in the Senate because I recall hearing it was voted with approval of the Senate, because Colin Powell made a great argument on WMDs.  I remember watching the TV that day Powell was giving the visuals of where the WMDs were suppose to be hidden, and I thought to myself, that is not enough proof.  It obviously, at the time was enough for the votes to approve the invasion.

Yes, Harold, it seems Nixon was nagging the heck out of the sitting presidents to be given face time.  Constantly writing to them with his advice.  I come away with a new found respect for Nixon's actual knowledge and intelligence, when it came to foreign affairs.  He knew the ins and outs of D.C., but yet was so extremely ignorant to think he could get away with Watergate.  Was this a man with just too big of an ego, that he ended up tripping over it?  lol  I think because of "the club" it made it possible for Nixon to be accepted by the other presidents, past & present.  Had they NOT had "the club" do you suppose they would have given him the opportunity to be involved?

I haven't read ahead, but I can't wait to get to Bill Clinton and Hillary's run for presidency. 

Ella, So sorry to hear about your eyesight, but rest assured, your typing skills are perfect!

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

That is not enough proof

You were certainly right there, Bellamarie; too bad nobody could listen to you.

Nixon was an odd mixture, wasn't he?  He was so good at foreign affairs, and knowledgeable about political strategies, but when it came down to anything about himself, he was fiercely paranoid and vindictive and willing to do anything, no matter how unscrupulous.  It's too bad we couldn't have split him in two, kept the good side for public life, and banished the bad side to private life.

[JoanP]

Kathleen, thanks for the great link - filling in more of the details of the Air Force One trip to Sadat's funeral.  I found a bit more about that plane -

Several aircraft have been used as Air Force One since the creation of the presidential fleet, including two Boeing 707s introduced in the 1960s and 1970s, respectively; since 1990, the presidential fleet has consisted of two Boeing VC-25As – specifically configured, highly customized Boeing 747-200B series aircraft. The Air Force is looking into replacing the two VC-25 aircraft with three replacement aircraft beginning in 2017.

So, Nixon did not endear himself to Jerry and Jimmy on that trip - but as we see in these chapters, Nixon  had Reagan's ear.  I guess that wasn't surprising.  Jimmy and Jerry "had no use for Reagan."  Reagan is the new guy in town and needs some guidance regarding how things worked in Washington - and foreign policy too. As  Bellamarie points out - Nixon  knew the ins and outs of D.C - and foreign policy.  Reagan wasn't getting these offers of help from the other members of the "club."

Once again I'm struck by the authors' bias - when they described Nixon's reasons for endorsing Haig for Secretary of State:

"...he sold the president-elect an unusually large helping of hokum about how Haig would 'reassure the Europeans, give pause to the Russians, and in addition, because of over five years as Henry Kissinger's deptuy in the White House and two years at NATO, he has acquired a great deal of experience in dealing with the Chinese, the Japanese, the various factions in the Mideast, the Africans and the Latin Americans."

We're also told in the next paragraphs that Nixon "offered lots of advice freely and even if Reagan didn't always take it, much evidence suggests he did."
If Nixon's role as a member of the club is to offer advice from his experience, I don't find it surprising that Nixon would do so.  I also don't see Haig's credentials amounting to "hokum"  as our authors characterized it...

[mabel1015j]

I would think that all following presidents would have had great ambiguous feelings about Nixon. Here was a man they probably knew on one hand they couldn't trust to be forthright with them and yet, he was a brilliant political stratagist and often gave valuable advise. Here was the most disgraced recent president, how much redemption did they want to give him? Here was a man who was once the most powerful man in the world and had squandered it all with criminal acts, did they want to be seen in pictures w/ him, or seem to be friendly w/ him? I can see how it could be enjoyable for them to have history conversations, or speculative conversations w/ him. I never did understand his seeming redemption by these guys and by the public, but i guess if you have some value to others, they can forgive you.

He was always seeking ways to turn the spotlight to himself. The scenario of kicking off his "Nixon Center" in the middle of G. H. W. Bush's campaign was so symbolic and incredible. He not just set up the event and asked Bush to speak, but undercut Bush w/ the press release on Russian policy. yet everybody came!?!

Carter is in many ways the same ego-centric personality, but in miniature, altho perhaps treasonous!?! Amazing! Amazing!

I'm glad you folks got me to read this book..........Jean

[threadheadnet]

Me, too: glad to have a chance to read this book and discuss it with y'all.

I've been wondering how history would be different if Nixon had not screwed up so badly so he couldn't complete an eight-year term; would he have been as busy-busy-busy asserting himself in the next administrations? Also, what would have happened if there had been one or two living ex-Presidents watching his administration? They all were capable of manipulating events, triangulating, behind the scenes.

What was the main reason Ford and Carter disliked Reagan? Was it jealousy that they only had one term, or that they vehemently disagreed with his philosophy of confronting communism head on? Seems like Nixon was more about containment than Reagan, so why the bond between Dick and Ronnie? My head swims thinking about these complex relationships!   

[bellamarie]

Nixon & Carter just seemed to "NEED" attention, and want to hold on to power with their foreign affairs.  Both committed acts of treason, but their sitting president chose not to hold them accountable for the sake of the club & presidency.   Do you believe that???

I think, the reason the sitting presidents did NOT take any action against them, because they would have had to expose how they took into their own hands, the power that belonged to the president.  How embarrassing would that have looked?   It was like these two guys spit in the eye of the sitting president.  Just the fact they were not held accountable, and then was allowed to continue in some capacity, was a bit disgusting for me. 

I am really enjoying this book.  I have learned so much, and my hubby is a history buff, and I am sharing things with him that he had no idea happened between these presidents.

Okay I am going on to the next chapters because I can't wait til Saturday.  I promise not to post any spoilers. 

Ciao for now~

[Ella Gibbons]

Enough NixonQ    And Carter, too?  Like BELLEMARIE I'm ready to go on to THE GOLDEN AGE OF THE CLUB - Chapter 20.

Is that all right with you HAROLD?

Are there any other comments about the preceding chapters before we proceed?

These next chapters are so current it seems -  we just heard a white-haired Bill Clinton speak on national TV in this campaign.

W. Bush is keeping very quiet and I wonder why he is not campaigning for Romney.

So much to talk about that is current.

If you all agree let's go on.

[Ella Gibbons]

I have one comment to make.  It would help us all in our conversations if, when commenting on a particular incident in the book, you would put the page numbers  of the book you are citing.

We can then read it over and comment further.  As KATHLEEN stated this material, these relationships,  are so complex , each page so full of references to conversations, actions, etc.,  that  a re-reading is necessary. 

Thanks much.

[JoanP]

Just finished chapter 19 last night - all comments are from that chapter - sorry I didn't note page numbers. Most comments are impressions I got - and questions I had after reading this chapter.

Earlier someone asked, was it you Ella - which president would you like to learn more about?  I've been thinking about that since you asked.  Right now, I think it would be Jimmy Carter.  So many unanswered questions about this man - especially since his term in office.

~ My questions - starting with HOW did he ever get elected President in the first place?  How much was known about him - how closely was he scrutinized by the press, by the public?  Was it just that the country was tired - tired of Nixon and then Ford who had pardonned him?

I thought President Bush treated him kindly, included him in peace talks, let him know his experience was useful.  What happened to this relationship?

~ He seems to have had a bad time in the "CLUB" - as authors say, every club needs a black sheep - and after Nixon died, Carter stepped seemlessly into this role."  Do the authors really mean this?  Who is the "black sheep now"  Is it still Carter?  Or?

~  "Carter goes rogue"  What on earth made him change his mind about using force if necessary  as he stated in his speech before the UN...which became known as the "Carter Doctrine" - When Bush deemed it necessary to get Sadam out of Kuwait using force, Carter does the unthinkable and turns against the sitting president in what many have called an act of treason.  Can it be looked at any other way? It was suggested that he didn't understand Bush's intentions...thought he wanted to chase SH all the way back to Iraq and started a bigger war.  Thought peace talks were in order, but why not have this conversation with  Bush before his mass mailing. It was all a misunderstanding, is that what we are told? 

The authors say he's never apologized or admitted he did anything wrong - in fact says he'd do it over again.  
So, Bush cut him out of the loop - and the State Department ignored his requests for aircraft and international travel expenses which he had used so extensively in the past.  Do the other members of the club also ignore him at this time?

  I'm looking forward to the next chapter to see how his reputation was restored under Clinton...

[JoanK]

I'm delighted to be back online after dealing with computer trouble. And caught up on the reading!

In an era where party differences have grown so wide and so devisive, it's amazing to read about these things which are all about the strengths and weaknesses of the people, not about party!

[Ella Gibbons]

WE'RE HAPPY YOU WITH US, JOANK!

That's just how I remember, JOANP.  The country couldn't forgive Gerald Ford for pardoning Nixon; he was a criminal after all.   Shouldn't he have been punished somehow regardless of status?  The country had been in a turmoil after Watergate and Jimmy Carter, an outsider, unknown to politics, seemed refreshing.

Nixon and the Watergate affair - it all seemed so unseemly (for lack of a better word).

Do the rest of you remember it that way?

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANP, let us know if you find a good book on Jimmy Carter.  We all know of his HABITAT FOR HUMANITY program; he has said "I am a better ex-president than I was Presdent."  Well, in some ways that is true.

Meanwhile on an American EXperience site I found this concerning his campaign for President:

"The country approached the 1976 election season already exhausted by a decade of war and scandal. The divisive Vietnam conflict and Richard Nixon's Watergate saga had undermined confidence in government and left public spirit at an all-time low. Traveling around the country long before other candidates began their campaigns, Carter listened, assessed the national mood, and decided it was the perfect time for an outsider like himself to run. While running essentially as a moderate to conservative Democrat, Carter emphasized his message of honesty, integrity, and character over specific issues. "I will not lie to you," he said, and he meant it. "The fact that he was unknown was part of his appeal," remembers Carter speechwriter Hendrik Hertzberg. "And he brought simple verities to the campaign trail: a promise not to lie to the American people, a promise to be good, a promise to love. And this was enough to bring him through the early primaries."

"http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/carter-election1976/

[threadheadnet]

... American EXperience site I found this concerning his campaign for President:

... "I will not lie to you," he said, and he meant it. ...

"http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/carter-election1976/

I'll have to remember where I read it (think it was a Bob Woodward book) that on Carter's *first* two days in office, he actually told four lies. The author's point was not that Carter was devious but that it was necessary to withhold facts from the media and therefore the public. What a burden our Presidents carry.

[bellamarie]

I think just reading this book, and looking back at the elections throughout the years I have been politically aware, in my opinion, the American people make decisions on their mood/emotions at the time of elections.  If they are happy with the sitting president, then they generally stay with that party.  Jimmy Carter, like Barack Obama, had perfect timing. The American people were upset with wars they did not agree with, Viet Nam/Iraq, so they were determined to change the party.

Were either of these men experienced and ready to lead this country?  I would say NO!  If anything it was the perfect timing for Hillary Clinton who was ready and experienced or even John McCain.  Americans can be very fickled and swayed easily.  I think this election just may be the first in all the years, more information is available for voters to be better informed than ever before.  The country is in an economic crisis and now a Middle East crisis.  So let's see if the pattern consists, and the American people once again feel its time for a party change.  

"And he brought simple verities to the campaign trail: a promise not to lie to the American people, a promise to be good, a promise to love. And this was enough to bring him through the early primaries."

Do you really think this was what got Carter and or Obama elected, since they were basically unknowns?  

Many presidents before them, and after them have pretty much said the same things.  If that is the case, then are Americans voting with their emotions, rather than their knowledge, and policies, these candidates stand for?  If so.... is this an intelligent way to elect anyone to the highest office of the United States, putting our trust and safety in their hands?  Food for thought.

Okay on to Clinton.... Ciao for now~

[JoanK]

"Carter listened, assessed the national mood, and decided it was the perfect time for an outsider like himself to run."

Exactly. The fact that he was an outsider with no connection to anything that had gone on before was a large part of his appeal. Probably the same with Obama.

[Ella Gibbons]

Yes, KATHLEEN, what a terrible burden is on the shoulders of a president - it's as if taking on the whole world and not just Americans.  And although he has many advisors of all kinds, he makes the decisions.  As Harry Truman said THE BUCK STOPS THERE.

What kind of man wants the job and then wants another term at it?  Something beyond my imagination.

Thanks, BELLEMARIE, for the comments.  What do  you think?  ON what basis do most Americans vote?   We stumble some of the time, but on the whole, America doesn't look bad when we look around the world.

China and Russia are a llittle frightening to look sometimes, both communist, China doing well economically, Russia  full of corruption and unrest from what I read.  Perhaps we should discuss a book on those two countries.  Would be interesting.  

CLINTON  - LUCKY - a member of a club which had five former presidents living!  

They wanted to be used; life was boring in their retiring years and he used them in different ways.
In many ways, they were the only ones able to help the young and the charming new president.

Were you surprised by who was the most helpful to Clinton?

[bellamarie]

Wow!  That Jimmy Carter is a real snake in the grass.  He is a rouge ex president who has no respect for the commander in chief.  Not once but twice he goes it on his own after being told by Clinton to NOT make any deals only go to feel these leaders out.  And the nerve of Carter to go public on CNN before even reporting back to Clinton.  What is it about Carter that NEEDS the power to be the one who negotiates the deals and then has to make sure he gets full credit by going public?  He reminds me so much of Nixon.  The both of them use the club, and the fact they want to keep the presidency maintained with honor, to do what ever they want, with the confidence they will not be revealed for their treasonous acts.

I personally have never been fond of "clubs" be it for colleges, sports, tree clubs as kids, sisterhood, brotherhood, presidents, etc., etc.  For me they hold a connotation that "we in the club" are better than those not chosen to belong to our club.  This chapter really annoyed me, especially this:

pg. 451-452

A Moment of Majesty.......And yet what Ford was suggesting in his Times op-ed was highly irregular.  He urged members of the House Judiciary Committee to proceed with their inquiry, but suggested the full House resolve the crisis with a parliamentary device that had no name.  Clinton, Ford argued, should voluntarily go to  the well of the House during a joint session of Congress and receive "not an ovation from the peoples' representatives, but a harshly worded rebuke as rendered by members of both parties.  I emphasize: this would be a rebuke, not a rebuttal by the President...the President would accept full responsibility for his actions, as well as for this subsequent efforts to delay or impede the investigation of them...Let it be dignified, honest and above all, cleansing.  The result, I believe, would be the first moment of majesty in an otherwise squalid year."

And that was the most important mission: members of the club tend to put protecting the presidency above protecting individual presidents, and the Oval Office, sullied by the whole episode, needed a ritual bath.  However appalled they were at Clinton's private conduct, the former presidents understood the profound but intangible costs of putting him on trial before the United States Senate.  A certain amount of the president's power comes from the "majesty" that adheres to the office; they did not want to see it diminished by the squalor of one individuals conduct."

One individual's conduct???  So, let me get this straight, to protect the club and presidency, these presidents found it justified, to allow Nixon to be pardoned for criminal acts, and also treasonous acts.  Carter committed treasonous acts, not once but twice, but that needed to be covered up.  Ford, made efforts to try to keep Clinton from impeachment, and I am sure I missed listing other implorable acts.  IMO,  I think the club is used for self serving interests.  It rather sickens me, that these presidents did not hold these men accountable for their actions.  NOT only, did they NOT hold them accountable, but they continued to feed their egos by calling upon them in future endeavors.  I have lost so much respect for the presidents in this book, after reading and finding out their actions and cover ups.  But then I suspect these are only the tip of the iceberg.  Cover ups and conduct unbecoming a president seems the normal.  Then, they award these guys with medals of honor.  REALLY??  In reality if someone commits a felony, could you ever imagine a President rewarding them with medals of honor?  In the military, when a soldier commits an act of treason, do they get rewarded with medals of honor?  I think NOT, they get a dishonorable discharge, and the shame they carry the rest of their lives.  As it should be!!

Ella~

They wanted to be used; life was boring in their retiring years and he used them in different ways.
In many ways, they were the only ones able to help the young and the charming new president.

Were these past presidents the "only" ones that could be used?  I have to say NO.  What if....they were not around, died?  What would these sitting presidents have done in place of them?  Did these presidents fall back to these past presidents because they felt they were not capable of achieving the goals.  In the end how much help were they actually?

I am shocked that Clinton used Carter as much as he did, especially after knowing he was rouge and could not take a direct order.  To this very day Carter sees himself so much more important than what he in reality is.  He is trying to rewrite is awful presidency by trying to make himself ingratiating to the presidents who came after him.

[HaroldArnold]

Sorry I didn't realize I was away as long as I was' but my last post was the 17th and today is the 21st.  I did have a network problem Wednesday that I didn't trouble shoot until yesterday.  Today we had a Day trip to Castorville and I didn't get back until 6:00 PM.  I do have more to say about Carter and Regan.

Regarding Carter, he comes through to many as a weak and in effectual President.  Fortunately for us the Cold war was beginning to cool as the Soviet Union was feeling the pinch of the weaknesses inherent in its Communist economic system.  U.S. International problems as I recall was mostly in the near east principally in Iran where the U'S' Embassy was attack and the staff was held hoatage for over a year during the Carter Presidency during which negotiations for their release were carried out mostly through friendly foreign embassy's.  I suppose Carter's slow negotiation's were necessary for the safety of the hostages, but the incident made Carter appeared a weak and ineffectual President an probably contributed substantially to his reelection defeat in 1980.  Other events such as the Treaty with Panama giving them sovereignty over the Panama Canal and his pardoning of American draft dodgers who had fled to Canada also contributed even though these acts are today considered necessary and correct.

Ronald Regan was the principal beneficiary of these events.  His greatest asset was his communication skills and his low Tax Policies led to what I suppose is the longest US period of economic prosperity and growth.   It was a happy period that may have ended in 2008 although a continuing low tax medication have continued to be administered through the Obama first term.        

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding Carters years as a member of the club, his early year's  were marked with an interesting civic activity that was "extra club,"  I am of course referring to, what is the group called---, Habit for Humanity.  I had an acquaintance who lived in one of these homes in San Antonio.  He was a janitor at the National Historical Park where I do volunteer work.  It was a nice little 1100 sq ft, 2 bed room house, on the San Antonio south side.  I let him trap feral hogs on my ranch Property near San antonio.

[Ella Gibbons]

BELLEMARIE, I do appreciate your comments and opinion, but in some respects I must disagree.  The Presidency, not particularly, the one who is holding the office in any year, must be honored and respected for the sake of the country's reputation as a democracy abroad and throughout our history.  I think the club members realize the importance of maintaining this respect.

I agree with:

"A certain amount of the president's power comes from the "majesty" that adheres to the office; they did not want to see it diminished by the squalor of one individuals conduct."

However, an in-house rebuke in full view of the Congress  should be sufficient to punish a wayward president.  But not Nixon.  He committed an offense against our law  while in office - unlawful breaking and entering, or he sanctioned it, and a president should not be obove the law.

I think what you are referring to was Carter's acts out of office??

I don't have my book in front of me, must go back to those pages.

HAROLD, did you agree with giving up the Panama Canal at the time?  I remember being outraged, it was Teddy Roosevelt who finally was able to get that thing cleaned out wasn't it?  I'm forgetting that part of history for the moment.

As I remember people died by the hundreds from malaria in the attempt.   American workers.

[JoanP]

Ella, I think that it was not unheard of - "breaking and entering" party headquarters before an election...both parties knew subterfuge, bugging went on, both parties knew they were breaking the law. That's not to say that "everybody does it" is an excuse -  It was  Nixon's cover-up, lies, passing the blame  to protect himself that brought him down.   His defensiveness at any expense, his character flaw.

I agree, it was an amazing come-back, though.   I marvelled as I read of their "mutual admiration society" - Nixon and Clinton's!  Clinton drew from Nixon's knowledge and experience...and his ability "to look beyond minor worries - and take the long view."  This probably explains how he was able to carry on after his disgraceful exit from Washington and make his bold come-back.
Clinton knew how to make use of the club - approached each of the former presidents - and learned from them.

Harold, I'm still trying to picture those feral hogs on your property.  Are they still there?  Good eating?