Author Topic: Travels with Herodotus by Ryszard Kapuscinski (Read 49004 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #40 on:** December 23, 2012, 07:59:27 AM »

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Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski

"We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski

Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian

Discussion Schedule:

Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-17 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 18-24 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 25-31 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness

For Your Consideration
January 4-12

1. "--what was important was not the destination ... but the almost mystical and transcendant act of crossing the border." What kind of borders other than physical will the author have to cross as he travels into other countries?

2. Why Herodotus as a companion? Do you think he will be a good one?

3. The author wonders how Herodotus' temptation to know the world was born? Do you have that temptation? Can you tell how it was born? Why do some people have it and others not?

4. He sees language as a wall preventing him from going further. Have you had that feeling?

5. Later, he sees the great Wall of China as a symbol. Of what? How many walls can you find in this book?

6. "Identity here (in India) is determined by the language spoken." How does speaking English affect our identity? Would we be the same people if we spoke a different language?

7. Here we experience life in two Communist countries (Poland and China). How are they alike? Different?

8. How do Chinese and Indian thought differ, according to Kapuscinski? What do you think: if you've read about Eastern thought, do you agree with him? Do you agree with his approach to learning?

Discussion Leaders: JoanK , JoanP, Barbara

JoanP · « **Reply #41 on:** December 23, 2012, 08:04:18 AM »

Good to hear, Fry. That will give you plenty of time to get started.

"I always wondered at what point Herototus put in that caveat, that he didn't know it was true." JoanK, I'm wondering why he was called "Father of Liars" - if he did in fact put in such a caveat - and the acknowledgement that what he was reporting might be rumor, as Babi points out. I wonder not only WHY, but WHO called him a liar! Not fair! Already I'm defending him! (though I've never read his Histories...and only started Kapuscinski's book)

Quote

"He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated."

I think this is important to remember. "Oral tradition predominated." Oral tradition must have been embellished with rumor as it was passed along, don't you think?

Babi · « **Reply #42 on:** December 23, 2012, 09:30:38 AM »

That oral history would also explain why peoples of that time, who mostly stayed
close to home, believed there were actually weird creatures and peoples existing
in other places.
I couldn't find the exact 'caveat ' I was referring to earlier, which stated "There is
a rumor that....". Here, tho', is a line from a description of the actions of Queen
Artemisia at the battle of Salamis. "So Xerxes, they say, in answer to what they had told him, observed, 'My men have become women, and my women men.' That is what they say Xerxes said."

JoanK · « **Reply #43 on:** December 23, 2012, 01:06:33 PM »

Most of the stories he tells must have been told to him, and he must have had an internal compass telling him how much credence to put on them. A Mathematician (Polya) once called science "learning to live with various shades of maybe and perhaps." History must be the same, since you're almost never in position to witness directly what you're writing about.

I'll make a wild guess: if it was a Greek telling H what the Persian commander Xerxes said, H might well have thought "How could he know?" and put in those disclaimers. If one of Xerxes' generals said it, he might have reported it as fact.Or maybe he didn't believe it anyway, but thought it was too good a story not to report.

Babi · « **Reply #44 on:** December 24, 2012, 09:05:18 AM »

True enough, JOAN. I understand Herodotus did include some anecdotes simply
because they were too good to pass up. It was this sort of entertaining side note
that made his histories so popular.

Frybabe · « **Reply #45 on:** December 28, 2012, 02:57:13 PM »

Super, my book arrived yesterday, and I just finished up my latest SciFi -- so, I am ready to settle in with Travels.

JoanK · « **Reply #46 on:** December 28, 2012, 03:32:16 PM »

Nothing like curling up at home with a cup of hot cocoa and a nice travel book.

Babi · « **Reply #47 on:** December 29, 2012, 08:48:37 AM »

From what little I've read so far, I'm not sure one could call it a 'nice travel book'.
Mr. Kapuscinski ran into all kinds of problems on his first trip.

Jonathan · « **Reply #48 on:** December 29, 2012, 01:58:23 PM »

What kind of problems, Babi? All kinds, you say. That could turn out to be the best part of the book. That reminds me. Long ago I had a friend who just loved taking his family on a weekend drive in the country, and he always came back reassured that the best part of the daytrip was getting lost. Much of what they saw was unexpected and unlooked for.

Of course travelling with Herodatus will take us over a good part of the known world of 2500 years ago, far beyond our own backyards. That sounds like unlimited adventure. Are we taking risks by setting out? Should we consult a fortune teller. I'm finally getting around to reading Herodotus, and I'm struck immediately by the habit of the ancients to consult an oracle before every endeavour. It must have been a huge industry. And very rewarding for the best of them. The one at Delphi, for example. I wonder if my friend could have benefited from her advice.

Sara Wheeler, quoted above in the heading, has written several travel books herself. I haven't read them, but I do have her biography of Apsley Cherry-Garrard, the author of THE WORST JOURNEY IN THE WORLD. Just typing out that title makes me shiver. That was tempting fate.

JoanK · « **Reply #49 on:** December 29, 2012, 02:12:43 PM »

"he always came back reassured that the best part of the daytrip was getting lost."

My husband and I would do the same thing on Sunday afternoon in the country lanes near our house. We would deliberately try to get lost. It got harder and harder, as we got to know the roads better and better.

Babi · « **Reply #50 on:** December 30, 2012, 08:39:18 AM »

Well, I don't want to jump the gun on details of the book, JONATHAN. I will say
that from what I've read so far, we'll be traveling with R.K. rather than 2500
years ago.
I am currently most annoyed to find that for some reason my computer will not
bring up the word pad list, where I've started my 'Travels' notes. The way this
program is set up, I have to make my notes on the word pad, which then stores them in a permanent 'document'. I cannot make additions or changes directly to the document.

Side road explorations can be great (or a pain) depending on what you find.
There is an area of Texas where the side roads will take you past charming, old
Dutch houses and barns and fields. It's like a quick trip into another country.

JoanP · « **Reply #51 on:** December 30, 2012, 11:26:45 AM »

JoanK, Jonathan - those intentional get-lost trips sound like such fun. Would never happen here with this husband...who can't stand not to know exactly where he is or where he is going at all times. Miss the spontaneity of such travel!

Babi...there has got to be a way for you to edit/add to your saved documents on word pad. Maybe Marcie has an idea?

I came in this morning to point your attention to the discussion schedule in the heading. We saw that the logical break for the first section occurs at the END of the chapter with the title CHINESE Thought...so we decided to include it in the first week's discussion.

Out of curiosity, how are you pronouncing the author's last name? We checked it out and found -
"Mr. Kapuscinski (pronounced ka-poos-CHIN-ski)"
So if you are looking for a shortcut when posting his name, we suggest you use Kapus, since the "S" is pronounced before the CHIN. The public libraries also refer to this call number KAPUS.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #52 on:** December 30, 2012, 02:09:47 PM »

Hmm how about a nick name like Puss and Boots

JoanK · « **Reply #53 on:** December 30, 2012, 02:54:04 PM »

Hope Kapus doesn't go Kaput!

Babi · « **Reply #54 on:** December 31, 2012, 08:43:46 AM »

Joank, you've got to resist these urges!

Kapus would make a welcome shortcut, JOANP. As to my problem, I'm
wondering if Val's recent 'clean-up' of the software removed the programs from the WordPad? Meanwhile, it looks as
thought I'm going to have a book full of purple tabs, to mark the places that have inspired some comment. Fortunately,
it's mine as I found it simpler to order it (cheaply) on-line.

JoanK · « **Reply #55 on:** December 31, 2012, 04:47:48 PM »

Resist urges? Me?

Yeah, there's a lot to think about, isn't there. That's why I like this book so much.

JoanK · « **Reply #56 on:** January 03, 2013, 02:54:11 PM »

Tomorrow we start the discussion. I'm excited to see what you all think of this unusual book.

Frybabe · « **Reply #57 on:** January 03, 2013, 04:38:00 PM »

Finished the first section this afternoon. I am ready.

JoanK · « **Reply #58 on:** January 03, 2013, 09:18:40 PM »

Great.

Don't forget we added a chapter to the first section (Chinese Thought). Even if you haven't finished it, come on in and give us your thoughts.

The questions will be in the heading, but here they are a little early (at least, it's early here on the West Coast).

1. "--what was important was not the destination ... but the almost mystical and transcendant act of crossing the border." What kind of borders other than physical will the author have to cross as he travels into other countries?

2. Why Herodotus as a companion? Do you think he will be a good one?

3. The author wonders how Herodotus' temptation to know the world was born? Do you have that temptation? Can you tell how it was born? Why do some people have it and others not?

4. He sees language as a wall preventing him from going further. Have you had that feeling?

5. Later, he sees the great Wall of China as a symbol. Of what? How many walls can you find in this book?

6. "Identity here (in India) is determined by the language spoken." How does speaking English affect our identity? Would we be the same people if we spoke a different language?

7. Here we experience life in two Communist countries (Poland and China). How are they alike? Different?

8. How do Chinese and Indian thought differ, according to Kapuscinski? What do you think: if you've read about Eastern thought, do you agree with him? Do you agree with his approach to learning?

JoanP · « **Reply #59 on:** January 03, 2013, 09:30:16 PM »

We'll be up at the crack of dawn to cross the Virginia/North Carolina border to finally celebrate Christmas with four of the grandchildren. I hope some of the spirit of the season will return. It just feels as if it's over.

I'm really looking forward to this discussion, though we 'll be away for the first few days. I'm hoping to find some time to come in and read your posts, but that's always iffy down there.

The thing that really struck me in the opening chapters was the point made on several occasions about "the importance of oral tradition." Following the war, little Kapuscinski depended almost entirely on oral transmission in the absence of textbooks.

He goes out of his way to make this point...and yet when he finally gets to cross the border into India, he is frustrated by the fact that he cannot comprehend the language. So the whole idea of oral tradition is mute, isn't it? What would Herodotus have done in Kapus' place? I'm thinking he would not have visited a country whose language he didn't understand, expecting to interview the natives!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #60 on:** January 03, 2013, 10:28:55 PM »

JoanP just celebrate Kings day with them - big deal here - the 6th when the 3 Kings come bearing gifts - here we are close to Louisiana and it has always been a big deal tradition a special coffee cake 'gâteau des Rois' with a silver token baked into the coffee cake that most often has purple sprinkles on top - whoever gets the token has good luck for the year and is declared king for the night - some have the king be the one to supply the cake for the following year.

Here is more information
http://noladefender.com/content/la-galette-des-rois-des-la-boulangerie-0

In case the bakery in the area do not have shelves high with King's Cakes here is a recipe

http://www.americancommunityinfrance.com/blog/food/galette-des-rois-american-stylenew-orleans-kings-cake/

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #61 on:** January 03, 2013, 10:32:18 PM »

Looking forward to tomorrow - it is cold here with a possibility of snow - been covering doors that are all shutter type to hold the heat into a few rooms - right now cozy and warm -

Frybabe · « **Reply #62 on:** January 04, 2013, 08:05:11 AM »

Kapuscinski suffered from culture shock as well as language barriers. I can almost see him shrinking into himself, can almost feel the panic he felt at his inability to instantly understand the various customs and languages he encountered. (I suspect that he put too much pressure on himself on learning the language. That can backfire. For instance, if I get panicky at not picking up something in Latin right away, I end up slowing myself down. It's kind of a mental block.)

I wish he had given us a little more information in his narrative especially how long he actually stayed in India and China. He doesn't mention actually writing dispatches back to his newspaper while there. Did he?

Babi · « **Reply #63 on:** January 04, 2013, 08:55:59 AM »

Well, we must note that the author did not choose India; he was expecting to go
somewhere else. But his editor said India, and hey, it was a BORDER! Perhaps he was hoping that the people making the news would speak Polish or Russian.

I was pleased to have a look at what Europe...at least, Poland....was like in the era at the end of Stalin's rule. I knew it was oppressive, but that really was just a word. The fear, the caution...everyone keeping a low profile in order not to be noticed.
Then, our authors education, and introduction to ancient Greece and Herodotus' histories. The mad rulers and the atrocities they committed. I can see why those stories would catch the attention of the young students of that time.
He is working as a reporter, traveling all over Poland, but never beyond it's borders. You have to wonder why he was chosen when it was decided to send a reporter to India. He spoke no language but Polish; how was he to manage? But maybe none of them spoke a foreign language, unless they learned it from someone in the family.
The exception would have been Russian. From Britannica on-line, Russia; the Stalin Era:
"The advent of the Cold War in the 1940s led to Stalin tightening his grip on his sphere of influence in eastern and southeastern Europe. Russian was imposed as the main foreign language..."
Not only language. He is sent off to India with wool clothing, in a style that would have made him stand out like a circus clown. I am getting the impression that his employers are also terribly naive about the world in general. Another result of the Stalin policies, I suppose.

PatH · « **Reply #64 on:** January 04, 2013, 10:46:05 AM »

I wonder how good a reporter Kapuscinski was? He makes himself sound pretty inexperienced, but I suspect he's being modest about his writing ability--he probably was already showing his considerable literary talent.

marjifay · « **Reply #65 on:** January 04, 2013, 10:53:25 AM »

Really an interesting story Didn't you wonder what you would have done, never having been out of your home area, to be plunked down in such a strange place as India, not knowing the language or anything about the people or its culture? And not having any knowledgeable person meeting you and showing you what to do, where to go? Scary. He did seem to have enough money with him, tho.'

I thought it was interesting (and sad) about all the people just milling around, sleeping on the roads, some on the bare pavement, no shelter from the rain, after the war between Hinduism and Islam. I want to read more about when Pakistan split off from India.

And yes, the atmosphere of Poland was so strange as well, with everyone afraid to say anything or stick out while Stalin was yet alive, and then things easing up just slightly after Stalin's death.

Marj

rich7 · « **Reply #66 on:** January 04, 2013, 11:20:47 AM »

Well, The library just informed me that my reserved book is in, so I guess I will be joining you folks for the discussion.

Hope you all don't get too far ahead of me before I get to it. I'm reading a biography of one of my favorite authors, Kurt Vonnegut, and I'd like to finish it before I undertake TWH.

Rich

Frybabe · « **Reply #67 on:** January 04, 2013, 12:56:10 PM »

Hi Rich, welcome to the discussion. I think you will find Travels with Herodotus a fairly easy read, and interesting.

Kurt Vonnegut is not an author I ever was interested in reading for some reason. If I had to tackle one of them, I think is would be Cat's Cradle.

rich7 · « **Reply #68 on:** January 04, 2013, 01:52:33 PM »

Thanks for the welcome, Frybaby.

So I have the book, and I'll just have to put Vonnegut aside for a while. Curious about what the book itself is about, I already read a few pages.

The author first heard about Herodotus when he (Kapuscinski) was a student in communist Poland. Herodotus' Histories were not available there until 1955! Amazing!

I find interesting the early excerpt from Herodotus about the messenger who was sent to learn how to effect absolute rule over a people. His teacher just kept walking through a cornfield breaking off the tallest ears of corn. The messenger didn't understand the message but he passed it on, anyway, to his leader. The would-be dictator understood the message clearly. "Kill the outstanding citizens." I find it interesting that the Herodotus "parable" is told to us from a Polish author who experienced WWII. That is exactly what the Nazis and Soviets did in Poland immediately after their mutual occupations of the country at the outset of the war.

I'm still not too familiar with this new posting system, and I think it's telling me that my page is full. So.......Signing off.

Rich

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #69 on:** January 04, 2013, 03:37:45 PM »

What interesting questions and what a different travel book. I've read 3 chapters and most decidedlly I am in awe of Kapus who had the courage to leave Poland during the upheaval in the Soviet Union at that time. Stalin had just died, he had lived under that brutal regime which did not, obviously, encourage initiative. However, the book says "the atmosphere became more relaxed, people breathed more freely" for awhile.

As a reporter, Kapus had to travel near borders of his country - mysterious borders, the emptiness of the borders intrigued him in his travels. His thoughts must have been his alone, he doesn't seem to have tried to engage in conversation with anyone near the border.

And Kapus was sent to India by his newspaper - what, about 1955? And we are getting near a discussion some of us have had before - GHANDI'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY - see

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Gandhi.htm

A land of movement, vibration and energy.

Good question - why do some of us have the temptation to travel and others are quite content to stay put? My husband was one who was quite content to go fishing, talk to the guys awhile; I forced him to cross the border of Ohio occasionally and, grumbling, he did so. hahahaa

JoanK · « **Reply #70 on:** January 04, 2013, 03:39:13 PM »

RICH: WELCOME WELCOME!

I hadn't realized til you said it how Kapus used the story herotodus told to add to the background of communist Poland. We'll have to look for other examples of that.

Kapus really gets across the atmosphere in Communist Poland, doesn't he. And the school: with all those ignorant farm children being exposed to school and the wide world for the first time. I feel with him. This is when his "temptation" to know the world is born. When was yours?

JoanK · « **Reply #71 on:** January 04, 2013, 03:40:28 PM »

By the way, I think we should share a 'gâteau des Rois' on the sixth!

ELLA:you were postin when I was. I hope your husband enjoyed the wilds of Indiana!

What about the rest of you?

rich7 · « **Reply #72 on:** January 04, 2013, 05:27:23 PM »

Reading Kapus' narrative of his visit to India, written from the perspective and culture shock of someone who had no idea where India was, let alone what it was about, I'm reminded of a book written years ago by V.S. Naipaul. Naipaul, of Indian descent, but raised in Trinidad, wrote of his travel to the land of his ancestors in his book "An Area of Darkness."

Naipaul, a Nobel Prize winner, drew a grim picture of the country, being shocked by the filth, the noise, the pressing mobs of beggars, and the persistent stench of excrement in the air. After reading it, and finding Naipaul's style quite interesting , I loaned my copy to a friend (whose wife I knew to be Indian). He brought it back to me a couple of days later. It seems his wife started reading it before he did, and was outraged. She told him to get that book out of the house and take it back to wherever he got it.

On my list of places I would really like to visit (if such a list existed), India would not make the top ten.

Rich

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #73 on:** January 04, 2013, 07:18:31 PM »

Oh, I would go to India, RICH. Such a contrast there, think of the Taj Mahal, even though I understand the grimness, the poverty, that still exists. Did any of you see the movie Slumdog Millionnaire that was shown some years ago.

But we have a connection with the country, two of my doctors are from India, as are many, and we have outsourced many jobs overseas - technology, particularly, I think. The world is changing slowly and I think the Internet is somewhat responsible. One can read a newspaper from India on the Internet, as I am sure the people of India read our own. And what would they think of us, the violence in Newtown, CT, for example.

I can remember visiting NYC some years ago and seeing the homeless in doorways, the beggars on the streets. I remember, particularly, in my own city, how sad it was to see veterans of WWII begging on our streets.

Your comment, RICH, about killing the leaders was a good one, get the resistance out of the way as you take over a country, then you can rule through fear.

HEY, JOAN, I'll come to your house on the 6th! I hope you have all the shopping done.

JoanK · « **Reply #74 on:** January 04, 2013, 07:49:06 PM »

I'll be ready!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #75 on:** January 04, 2013, 11:42:53 PM »

Interesting our views of India - I too thought of it as a place full of street people so stuck they turned to religion as their only outlet and source of hope but I was really taken with his explaining the scene of the father praying every morning with his son and a blog I follow regularly written by a gal in Norway who does a lot of traveling changed my Johnny One Note view -

She was visiting India only this past November staying at the home of casual friends who I think she met through her blog - Britt Arnhild's blog is mostly photos and she had three days of photos showing the places they visited and the women in the house where she was staying preparing some food - I was really surprised how clean and lovely not only the home but this tailor who has cloth in just about every shade and color who made her a typical Indian ensemble as well as the other places she photographed - this was NOT the impression I had of India - http://brittarnhildshouseinthewoods.typepad.com/brittarnhilds_house_in_th/india/ - I'm thinking these movies show the slums to tell their story - every city I have visited including the one I live in has a dirty crime ridden slum.

I was really taken at how (I have decided to call him Puss and Boots - a sound of part of his name plus he sure must have wore out some boots on his travels or maybe Puss for short) anyhow I was impressed with how 'Puss and Boots' saw the good in India even through his frustration of not being able to communicate.

My first trip to Europe made me feel just as frustrated - I had a bit of High School French and bits of childhood German that I realized I understood more than I could speak - but I felt like there was a wall between me and the people - that all the sights in the world were only a bit of seeing and enjoying visiting another nation much less getting a sense of how they think and how they put together their thoughts.

marjifay · « **Reply #76 on:** January 05, 2013, 07:26:03 AM »

Ella, I really had to giggle about your struggle to get your husband to travel beyond the border of Ohio!

My husband was a bore to travel with. His hobby was flying a private airplane he and his buddies owned, so all he wanted to do was to go from airport to airport to gab with other pilots. After the divorce... I started seeing the world with friends from my work.

I had no desire to go to India, but was sorry I never made it to China. I've also never had any desire to go to Australia because of the dangerous insects I've read about there.

Marj

JoanP · « **Reply #77 on:** January 05, 2013, 09:24:19 AM »

That's quite a colorful cake, Barb. Ours will be decorated by the kids - who knows, it might be even more so!

How many times have I forgotten to add the coin to the batter! I no longer panic...just insert it into the bottom of the cake when it cools... We're planning on making it tomorrow morning. Forgot to bring the crown for the king - or queen - we can make that too. Ella, JoanK, will be expecting you! Did I mention there is a prize for the lucky king/queen? Another perk, you are excused from dish washing duty...

This morning, a swim meet, this afternoon two back-to-back soccer games - outside! Tonight we're all going to a nearby Davidson College basketball game. Busy day!

JoanP · « **Reply #78 on:** January 05, 2013, 09:37:58 AM »

I've so enjoyed reading your posts yesterday -and seeing that you are enjoying this book. It is certainly triggering many reactions and memories. My son and his wife are planning a trip to Italy in the spring. Neither seems interested, or are too busy to learn the language - under the impression that everyone will understand English. I'm picturing them after an all-night flight, landing in Rome...trying to find their way to the money machines, their hotel, etc. And then renting a car for a romantic ride through the countryside outside of Florence. I couldn't do it. I'd be cramming Italian, knowing that Bruce would be depending on me to get us around.

Frybabe, I agree, in India Kapus had to face the language barrier - as well as culture shock. Back in the 60's, my sister was on a return trip through India from a two year peace corps stint in the Phillipines. Thought herself a seasoned traveler - until India. The sea of white, the people in the roads! She was on this open bus when the driver struck a woman and was driving off leaving her in the road. Apparently this was a common occurance. Kay started screaming for him to stop. Amazingly he did, let the passengers, led by my sister, pull the woman into the bus. He drove off, the woman died on the bus, the driver wouldn't stop for many miles until he reached the next town. True story.

JoanP · « **Reply #79 on:** January 05, 2013, 09:44:23 AM »

Two questions -
Is Kapus working for a student-run newspaper? Were you wondering who was paying his expenses to India. It seems his editor noticed him as one of those who had the desire to travel - although he told her he just wanted to cross, look around and come right back. Would that have been enough for him do you think? Why did she think he'd be interested in Herodotus?

He does a lot of reading when in India. Tries to learn the language, tries to learn English too. So what is his language? Russian is the official language in Warsaw. Do you assume he knows Polish and Russian? In what language do you see him reading his copy of Herodotus' Histories?

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Author Topic: Travels with Herodotus by Ryszard Kapuscinski (Read 49004 times)