Author Topic: Moonstone, The by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online  (Read 60725 times)

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #200 on: April 20, 2013, 06:05:13 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins


 In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
  
 Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little.  How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-25:   The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.


Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text

For Your Consideration
April 21-25 : Through section XXIII, to End of First Period

1. What is your initial reaction to Sergeant Cuff? What devices does Collins use with Cuff that you see reflected in later mystery story detectives?

2. Why does Cuff say "Nobody has stolen the diamond"?

3. Do you think we have heard the last of the Shivering Sands? Is Collins' use of them as a plot device effective?

4. In the story of Rosanna, the ugly maid, how is Collins ahead of his time? How not?

5. Can you think of anything that would account for Rachel and Rosanna's behavior other than Cuff's theory?

6. What do you think is in Rosanna's sealed letter?

7. What do you think of Betteredge's methods of "handling women?

8. Betteredge: "People in high life have all the luxuries to themselves--among others, the luxury of indulging their feelings."  This is part of a strain that runs through the book.  Have you noticed such ideas elsewhere in the book?

DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK &  PatH





That's an excellent link, JoanP, clear and concise.  In addition to the dramatic picture you posted here, the one on page 3 of the article, an Englishwoman defending herself during the mutiny, is very amusing.  Notice the murderous look of the Indian at the lower right.

Yep, from the picture I can imagine the level of hostilities of that period between the 2 cultures.  ;)

OH!  I get to lead a new page too!!!  ;D
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #201 on: April 20, 2013, 06:12:29 PM »
Why Rachel's fury in her relationship with Franklin? Good question. The two of them were having such fun with their art work on the door. Working well together.

Just vocalizing some mental ramblings: I suspect Franklin asked Rachel to allow and be part of a deceit, and then not letting Lady Verinder, her mother, in on the hoax either. From what Betteredge has said about Rachel, she is not a woman easily influenced.
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

PatH

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #202 on: April 21, 2013, 09:23:30 AM »
The plot thickens.  A lot happens in this section; some mysteries are cleared up, and some made even more mysterious.  We start with the appearance of Sergeant Cuff on the scene.  How does he strike you?  Will he solve the case?

There are some new questions at the top of this page.

Frybabe

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #203 on: April 21, 2013, 09:32:20 AM »
Sergeant Cuff seems very focused without appearing so at first glance.

Re Betteredge: He reminds me a lot of Carson on Downton Abbey. He is very defensive of Miss Rachel, just as Carson showed same and favoritism regarding Mary.

JudeS

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #204 on: April 21, 2013, 12:04:54 PM »
For those interested in the relationship between The Moonstone and Robinson Crusoe you can get the whole  introduction to my book by putting into Google the following:

Karl,Frederick R(2002)"Introduction".The Moonstone.

This introduction deals with many aspects of the novel without giving away any information on the perpetrator.
It seems that Mr. Karl was a widely respected Literary critic and writer who is well known in circles which I usually don't frequent.

JudeS

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #205 on: April 21, 2013, 01:54:53 PM »
Re: Sargeant Cuff and his personality as a prototype to the thousands of Detectives that followed in his footsteps, we see the use of his interest in Roses as the softer side of his personality.  He is not only brilliant, logical and cool but also a human being with a multi-faceted personality. One that draws us to him and makes him charming rather than just "a brain".

We see in Sherlock Holmes his love of the violin (and cocaine).
"      " in Sargeant Morse his love of classical music (and Alcohol).
"      "  in Miss Marple her caring attitude to all and sundry (and her knitting).

Wilkie Collins made the model and till today many good writers use his characters two sided personality , showing strength ,softness and weakness  together with a brilliant analytical mind.

JoanK

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #206 on: April 21, 2013, 02:43:22 PM »
And in Hurcule Poirot his determination to retire and grow "vegetable marrows." I always wondered about that -- it seemed so un-Hurcule Poirot-like.

What ARE vegetable marrows, anyway? was Agatha Christie laughing at Collins?

JoanK

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #207 on: April 21, 2013, 02:45:56 PM »
Notice that we haven't given a whole week to this section -- only through Thursday. We think that's enough: it isn't as rich as the first section, and we're used to B's rambling prose.

But we can take longer if needed.

JoanK

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #208 on: April 21, 2013, 02:49:25 PM »
JUDE: " well known in circles which I usually don't frequent." Nor do I (nor wish to). Thanks for the intro. When PatH was here, she discovered that I owned that edition of "The Moonstone." (It's a wise woman who knows what's in her bookcases -- I apparently don't qualify!)

Off to read the intro.

JudeS

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #209 on: April 21, 2013, 03:09:26 PM »
Joan K
Being of English heritage I know that marrows are our Zuchinni. That includes both the yellow and green types. They are easy to grow and give BUMPER crops. Usually so many that you and all your neighbors never want to see one again.

I called Morse Sargeant but he is really better known as Inspector Morse.  We were in England when he died and the whole country went into mourning. I was amazed at the love and respect for "our Inspector Morse" that the Brits showed.
Anyone who has not read Colin Dexter's Morse novels has a wonderful treat awaiting them.
The TV versions were also enthralling.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #210 on: April 21, 2013, 04:26:11 PM »
Back later today - just caught up on all the posts since I was last here - my last was post number 151 -

I remember reading in the "French Lieutenants Woman" ... there were over 50,000 prostitutes in the streets of London in the 1860's, ... and from the numbers they determine how many times a week your Victorian gentleman should get laid. and so collecting prostitutes in the streets at night must have been easy pickings for anyone wanting to convert a 'sinner'.

This historical phenomenon must still have legs in British Culture - I am thinking of the recent PBS series The Land Girls and one of the principles was essentially a London prostitute who the naive local minister falls for and they end up with her seeing the goodness and getting married.  

Since we are not linking to the Victorian site, with so many spoilers there is on that site the article the Collins wrote for Dickens' Newspaper about India. He is very complementary and accepting of the Indian people - the article was written a few years after the 1857 mutiny of the Sepoys [Indians in the British army] however, most of Britain was horrified as they should be over the mass killing and loss of their own but they did seem to carry it further as today, so many here in the US cannot tolerate any Muslim.

Hadn't realized the boy was a medium - just thought he was acting in deference to an older man and not trying to tip his hand so he could assure himself of the care he was receiving. I think he saw the Indians as good people and would not be coming from the mindset of many of the readers. However, that contrast of and old man, dark complexioned with black hair versus a very blond haired youth is like in a painting, drawing our eyes to the underlying conflict maybe??!!??

Not sure if the conflict is in the story or a devise Collins uses to attract the readers who he knows mostly carry a negative view of the Indians - is this a device to make us suspect the Indians are inscrutable and secretive as they had in secret pulled off the 1857 mutiny therefore, they are at the bottom or the stolen jewel because, the young blond boy standing as still as a statue is like an angle or a Christian church statue - worthy next to God as the religion of the day suggests to the English and as compared to this strange Hindu sect.

I even wonder if the English would have frowned at any holy object being decorated with such value - too much like the Catholics that were also showing too much pomp and valuable decoration. I wonder if this is justifying a viewpoint that the jewel is nothing more than an archeological find rather than part of a holy symbol and therefore, the English are justified in keeping the jewel.  I am seeing tons in that image of the young blond boy receiving attention from the old dark skinned man.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #211 on: April 22, 2013, 01:08:05 PM »
That's a striking image, Barb--the fair-haired boy and the dark man.  There are other examples of foreignness to watch for in the book.

JoanK

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #212 on: April 22, 2013, 04:32:02 PM »
It's awfully quite today. Is everyone madly reading?

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #213 on: April 22, 2013, 06:32:12 PM »
My first impression of Sergeant Cuff is adornment. Then he’s a stoic, commanding figure, oozing confidence in finding thieves, killers and other seedy riff-raff. Then to discover a feminine gentleness bestowed upon nature’s beauties, roses! I laughed at the imagery, but held this man in greater esteem given his comfortable masculinity. And I love his idea of grass walks around roses, it accents their beauty.

Throughout the read he maintains that commanding, intimidating presence even when verbally attacked by Lady Verinder, Franklin or Betteredge. I am thoroughly impressed with his detecting skills and process of elimination. And his reason for believing the stone was not stolen is in apart, I think, because of the lack of evidence leading towards theft, and then I believe he suspects another motive for its disappearance too.

I continue to be in awe of the Shivering Sands, and definitely an excellent plot device to my way of thinking. It’s a suitable hiding place for the stone or any other evidence for that matter.

However I don’t believe the paint smudge under the door lock was done by a petticoat or dress.  It’s too narrow a focus for anything of great bulk to perform. Dresses of the period possessed yards of cloth. While the thief opens the door I can imagine a corner of a pillow case or towel creating a smear in that location easy enough.

Not even half way through the book - my layout is a WORD document - I’m further surprised by Sgt. Cuff’s announcement of who is responsible for the stone’s disappearance and the why for it. But presume there will be a twist sometime soon, as I’ve too many remaining pages to finish.  :D

I am heart broken to read that Rosanna killed herself by drowning in the Shivering Sands.  It’s a horrible way to die… drowning. It’s my greatest fear for sure, along with tiny enclosed spaces or extreme heights. It’s not the dying I fear, but the lingering and/or pain association with it. But I can’t help but wonder – did Rosanna really die there or was it a set up.  This is a mystery…  :)  As for her letter to the Mrs. Yollands, it could be a multitude of messages. If I were to believe Rosanna dead, it could be a letter of thanks for her kindness and friendship. If I were to believe the death a ruse, it could be a letter with further instructions or thanks for aiding in the ploy.

Then I’m confused by Lady Verinder’s negative reaction towards Sgt Cuff.  She never struck me as someone to be bothered by anything or any body.

As proven by the following quote, Betteredge’s handling of women is not surprising given this period piece. “I suspected what was the matter readily enough. But it is a maxim of mine that men (being superior creatures) are bound to improve women—if they can. When a woman wants me to do anything (my daughter, or not, it doesn't matter), I always insist on knowing why. The oftener you make them rummage their own minds for a reason, the more manageable you will find them in all the relations of life. It isn't their fault (poor wretches!) that they act first and think afterwards; it's the fault of the fools who humour them.” - page 95

Then our Book Discussion Leaders’ question 8: Betteredge: "People in high life have all the luxuries to themselves--among others, the luxury of indulging their feelings."  This is part of a strain that runs through the book.  Have you noticed such ideas elsewhere in the book?

Emotional luxuries could not be afforded by those surviving on the streets or those working class peoples. Weaknesses were a road to setback, ruin or worse, death. So “sucking up” what emotion emanates and pushing steadfastly forward kept them alive…and employed. A good example of the “stiff-upper-lip” is when Betteredge confronts Rosanna about Franklin’s rejecting her to Sergeant Cuff in the garden. page 96 of my reading:

“It doesn't matter," she answered. "I shan't trouble Mr. Franklin, to-day."
"Why not speak to my lady?" I said. "The way to relieve your mind is to speak to the merciful and Christian mistress who has always been kind to you."
She looked at me for a moment with a grave and steady attention, as if she was fixing what I said in her mind. Then she took the broom out of my hands and moved off with it slowly, a little way down the corridor.
"No," she said, going on with her sweeping, and speaking to herself; "I know a better way of relieving my mind than that."
"What is it?"
"Please to let me go on with my work."
Penelope followed her, and offered to help her.
She answered, "No. I want to do my work. Thank you, Penelope." She looked round at me. "Thank you, Mr. Betteredge."
There was no moving her—there was nothing more to be said. I signed to Penelope to come away with me. We left her, as we had found her, sweeping the corridor, like a woman in a dream.”


My last curiosity is in this instance, when Sgt Cuff makes three predictions, I strongly suspect Rachel’s true purpose is handing the stone over to the 3 Indians. To rid her family of the curse, but to return property that rightfully belongs to India.

"First," said the Sergeant, "you will hear something from the Yollands—when the postman delivers Rosanna's letter at Cobb's Hole, on Monday next." […]  "In the second place," proceeded the Sergeant, "you will hear of the three Indians again. You will hear of them in the neighbourhood, if Miss Rachel remains in the neighbourhood. You will hear of them in London, if Miss Rachel goes to London."  […]  "Third, and last," said Sergeant Cuff, "you will, sooner or later, hear something of that money-lender in London, whom I have twice taken the liberty of mentioning already. Give me your pocket-book, and I'll make a note for you of his name and address—so that there may be no mistake about it if the thing really happens."
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #214 on: April 22, 2013, 06:33:30 PM »
It's awfully quite today. Is everyone madly reading?

Yes, I was madly reading and formulating my view points.  :D
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Jonathan

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #215 on: April 22, 2013, 09:52:31 PM »
Me too. I've been reading madly, like Pamela. I only wish I had her view point formulating skills. So many facts to take into account. Betteredge seems to be a fairly reliable witness to what occurred, but he's too bewildered about keeping the family reputation intact to be entirely objective. He does make it interesting. By the way, Pamela, who do you think is the more masculine, Sergeant Cuff or Betteredge? Isn't it interesting that it's the Sergeant's melancholy that's mentioned so often by the butler?

Cuff can't believe that the diamond was stolen. No crime has been committed. Rachel must have a good reason for not wanting a policeman around. Given the diamond's history and evil influence perhaps she just wants it to disappear. She's leaving and taking the diamond with her.

Rosanna's tragic life and death seems to be a subplot in Betteredge's story. I don't want to think red herring, but she doesn't fit into the probable conspiracies to have the diamond disappear. Betteredge is certainly protective along with his notions of improving the female sex. It must have driven his wife around the bend. He's so pleased that daughter Penelope has her father's good qualities. Not her mother's.

Jonathan

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #216 on: April 22, 2013, 10:02:13 PM »
I can't help thinking that the autor knew that most of his readers were women. He makes too much fun of his male characters for it to be otherwise. He certainly wasn't trying to inform his male readers. Was he?

Jonathan

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #217 on: April 22, 2013, 10:14:04 PM »
It was Franklin who brought the police into the problem of the missing jewel, both the local man and then the detective from London. That would establish his innocence of any theft. And it explains Rachel's anger.

kidsal

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #218 on: April 23, 2013, 04:52:15 AM »
Sgt Cuff -- Columbo with the raincoat

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #219 on: April 23, 2013, 11:16:41 AM »
[...] By the way, Pamela, who do you think is the more masculine, Sergeant Cuff or Betteredge?

In my book, both gentlemen possess an interesting and equal level of masculine quality. To my eye, neither is below or above the other however, I would favor Sgt Cuff as I confess a fetish for law enforcement (I’m married to a man who is a retired Deputy Sheriff).  :P
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #220 on: April 23, 2013, 11:17:13 AM »
Sgt Cuff -- Columbo with the raincoat

Yes!  He does have that air about him, huh?  :D
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #221 on: April 23, 2013, 11:40:33 AM »
I can't help thinking that the autor knew that most of his readers were women. He makes too much fun of his male characters for it to be otherwise. He certainly wasn't trying to inform his male readers. Was he?

First let me confess, proudly, to enjoy reading historical romance novels. Heck!  I love romance novels in any genre.  ;) 8)

From my stand point, this is not a very romantic novel instead a strong mystery. Like a good mystery the genre takes center stage, and the romance in “The Moonstone” is not center stage. The romance here is what I call back story, to lighten heavy moments or to just add an intriguing “alter-element” to the reading experience.

Collin’s does seem to pick a part the male characters, and then extols the merits of the women. Even Rosanna garners sympathy, though an ugly and fallen woman, but one to be kind to, protective towards nonetheless. I wonder if Collins believes this is what a romance novel should do: make fun of the polished, clever natures of men while exalting the delicate though chaotic dispositions of women.

So is “The Moonstone” a peek into what 19th century women would have enjoyed in romantic literature? I don’t think so, because as I mentioned before it was very much a mystery, very little romance.   
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

JoanK

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #222 on: April 23, 2013, 12:15:22 PM »
Great points today.

Collins "does seem to pick a part the male characters, and then extols the merits of the women." (Pamela)

I hadn't noticed that, but you're right! I think more than just that his readers were women:he seemed to genuinely feel for women's position.

But wait til next week, when he picks apart Miss Clack!

Definately Columbo!

And a theory from Jonathan: Rachel is mad at Franklin for calling the police. We all seem to think that Rachel took the moonstine, right?

JoanK

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #223 on: April 23, 2013, 12:21:45 PM »
In the introduction by Frederick carl, he says:

"The Shivering Sands is a kind of metaphor for life itself, waiting to grab off the unwary, ever-present beyond the pleasant reaches of the estate..... Out there, beyond civilization, lie enigmas."

What do you think?

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #224 on: April 23, 2013, 12:58:57 PM »
[…] But wait til next week, when he picks apart Miss Clack!

OH!  Really?  ;D

[…] And a theory from Jonathan: Rachel is mad at Franklin for calling the police. We all seem to think that Rachel took the moonstine, right?

After this week’s reading, yea, Collins definitely left that impression upon me; that Rachel has the stone. And Jonathan’s observation is right on target too, explaining Rachel’s hostility towards Franklin. And his obvious distress over her anger too was quite tangible, heart wrenching even.
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #225 on: April 23, 2013, 01:23:57 PM »
In the introduction by Frederick carl, he says:

"The Shivering Sands is a kind of metaphor for life itself, waiting to grab off the unwary, ever-present beyond the pleasant reaches of the estate..... Out there, beyond civilization, lie enigmas."

What do you think?

Yes, I agree with Carl’s statement about the Shivering Sands, especially the part, “…waiting to grab off the unwary…”  The quicksand also reminds me of getting suck into negative rhetoric, narrow dogmas, and the like; only to drown in the onslaught. 
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

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JoanP

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #226 on: April 23, 2013, 01:34:32 PM »
Isn't Collins a manipulator, though!  Amazing the way he can lead us into believing one thing, and the next moment he tosses us a few images, (the tears in Franklin's eyes, for example) and we are certain of the opposite.
Pamela, why are you so sure this is not a romance? Have you given up on Franklin's love for Rachel?

Clearly Superintendent Seegrave is inept...was botching the investigation until "The great Cuff " came on the scene from London.  Sergeant Cuff seems to know from the very beginning that the diamond has not been stolen.  How does he know this?  I will be disappointed if this is not revealed when all is said and done.

I 'm loving the relationship, the tension and the respect between Cuff and Gabriel.  I can guess who you like the best, but if you had to select Collins' main  character in the novel, who would it be?

ps Had a most unpleasant day off yesterday - too exhausted to do much of anything after that.  I hope to read preceding posts this afternoon and see where we are before commenting further...

JudeS

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #227 on: April 23, 2013, 03:56:09 PM »
In this delightful novel I personally find that the MOONSTONE is secondaryto the fascinating characters.

It seems like a Merry-Go-Round .  Each character is paid attention to as they roll by. We know they will reappear but for that particular second our glance is on someone else.

The Moonstone is the mechanism which moves the Merry-Go-Round but it is not seen . It's music is heard. This music attracts people from near and far to come to stare and wonder..to ride or just to watch?

Some watch calmly, some jump aboard,  sitting on the curlicued seats, others jump on stationery horses while the most courageous jump on those horses that are in movement----up and down and around.

While standing around we can titter about the argument re: the dog roses or wonder about the paint smudge.
Yes there are differences between men and women but some men are weak and some women are strong and vice-versa.

To me this seems like a fun day away and the issue of the moonstone is as theoretical as the tides.
Only the shivering sands give us a taste of true reality.

Jonathan

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #228 on: April 23, 2013, 04:14:58 PM »
I'm finding a lot of romance in something like this from section XIX (page 163):

'Then I saw the raging sea, and the rollers tumbling in on the sand-bank, and the driven rain sweeping over the waters like a flying garment, and the yellow wildernes of the beach with one solitary black figure standing on it - the figure of Sergeant Cuff.'

The two men realize that the sands have swallowed up the maid Rosanna. Betteredge is horrified, and continues to describe his feelings:

'I tried to tell him of the fear that had frozen me up. I tried to say, 'The death she has died, Sergeant, was a death of her own seeking.' No! the words wouldn't come. The dumb trembling held me in its grip. I couldn't feel the driving rain. I couldn't  see the rising tide. As in the vision  of a dream the poor lost creature came back before me. I saw her again as I had seen her in the past time -  on the morning when I went to fetch her into the house. I heard her again, telling me that the Shivering Sand seem to draw her to it against her will and wondering whether her grave was waiting for her there. The horror struck at me, in some unfathomable way, through my own child. My girl was just her age. My girl, tried as Rosanna was tried, might have lived that miserable life, and died this dreadful death.'

Collins's romance is in the new wave of  feeling and thinking that came into literary things with the romantic poets earlier in the century. Unusual aesthetic and emotional adventure along with love. You know what I mean?

Jonathan

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #229 on: April 23, 2013, 04:20:24 PM »
Delightful. Thanks Jude. You also see the romance in it. Better than I do.

Scottieluvr

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #230 on: April 23, 2013, 05:40:13 PM »
Isn't Collins a manipulator, though!  Amazing the way he can lead us into believing one thing, and the next moment he tosses us a few images, (the tears in Franklin's eyes, for example) and we are certain of the opposite.
Pamela, why are you so sure this is not a romance? Have you given up on Franklin's love for Rachel?

Oh! I would never give up on Franklin's love for Rachel.  ;D  I'm just accustom to romance stories taking a stronger, dominate lead; its the foundation.  In this instance the mystery feels like the foundation, over powering [shadowing] the romantic elements.
Scottieluvr aka Pamela

"Above all, be the heroine of your life, not the victim." - Nora Ephron

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #231 on: April 23, 2013, 09:12:45 PM »
Sublet hints along the way tell us why women are featured with deference - it is a women's domain - from the time Miss Julia marries Sir John with the expression "she took him to the church" suggesting she is not without control over his property which is not what an unmarried women has to show for her status regardless how beloved. - Then we have the exchange showing  what may be typical for the lower class but probably speaks to the underlying theme of marriage where Gabriel Betteredge marries as an economical advantage as he voices during his proposal, he no longer has to pay a women to clean and cook and take care of his sexual needs.

We know this is a time when women had few rights and only financially taken care of by a father or husband and according to birth order and other inheritance she may have received can she be secure. The comment by Penelope that a women only has her character is the truth of the day. Hearing how Betteredge speaks of the character of the men, it appears that being forceful and standing up under difficult circumstance while being thoughtful and proper is a measure of character therefore, the women are showing their character within their domain which is the home/estate and for Julia she expanded her control to include the farming aspects of the estate.

None of the women have a job - they are not lawyers or members of the House of Lords or any number of prestige working positions, other than the female house servants and so, the house is like a corporate factory - it appears to me, just as we would expect a story set within the confines of a well run factory we would expect to hear good things about those running and working for the success of the corporation. So too, I can see the success of an estate/house is run by competent leadership and effective workers who are spoken about with respect, allegiance and admiration.

How much fun that Collins includes some of Kent when Mr. Franklin is discussing the Moonstone with Betteredge near the Shivering Sands - The German Kant's work bridges the two dominant philosophical schools in the 18th century: 1) rationalism, which held that knowledge could be attained by reason alone [a priori] prior to experience, and 2) empiricism, which held that knowledge could be arrived at only through the senses [a posteriori] after experience. Kant's solution - while we could know particular facts only by sensory experience, we could know the form they must take prior to any experience.

While in France we have at the time the Religion of Humanity started by Auguste Comte that says, feminine values embodied the triumph of sentiment and morality.  This view is not the values admired by our Betteredge but does explain better Franklin and Rachel working together on the painted door.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #232 on: April 23, 2013, 09:20:15 PM »
Not fond so far of Mr. Murthwaite - I think he knows too much and then for Franklin and Betteredge to give him so much information made me uncomfortable - still have not finished this week reading so I may be jumping the gun. Looked up his name and the history of Murthwaite is Scandinavian and means essentially a clearing or open place in a woodland, a meadow. So maybe he is a character to enlighten among the heavy characters with their secrets.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #233 on: April 24, 2013, 05:48:07 AM »
Looks like the first modern rose, a hybrid, the Tea Rose was produced in 1867 so that the bulk of the roses in Lady Verinder's Rosary would have been 'Old Garden Roses.'

Sergeant Cuff reminds me more of Dickens' Tulkinghorn than Charles F. Fields
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #234 on: April 24, 2013, 08:10:20 AM »
Now that you mention it, I was interested that Cuff and the gardener were debating the merits of grafting the newer (hybrids?) roses onto common stock, the premise being that the "base" or root stock can withstand diseases like root fungus better than the more delicate hybrids/varieties.

JoanP

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #235 on: April 24, 2013, 11:11:41 AM »
Barbara -  ah yes, Dickens'  Tulkinghorn in Bleak House... he seemed to have all the answers too.  Not as likable as Sergeant Cuff though...  (Do YOU think Cuff is likable...or just competant?)  
 
From the moment Sergeant Cuff's interest moved from the house to the rose garden, I've been expecting something to be revealed there.  The gardener seems competant enough - but how does he explain the gravel paths, when Cuff feels so strongly against such a practice?  How long has the gravel been on the paths, I wondered.
And Franklin...this garden his favorite place to stroll.... Do you expect we'll be returning there before the story ends?

Fry, when Sergeant was arguing with the gardener about the merits of grafting... I went back to reread more about this - in context...

Quote
--"Good night, Mr. Betteredge," he said. "And mind, if you ever take to growing roses, the white moss rose is all the better for not being budded on the dog rose, whatever the gardener may say to the contrary!"
--"What are you doing here?" I asked. "Why are you not in your proper bed?"
--"I am not in my proper bed," answered the Sergeant, "because I am one of the many people in this miserable world who can't earn their money honestly and easily at the same time."

How did you understand the last part of his response?

And then there's the tune he whistles when he gets one clue closer  to the truth - "The Last Rose of Summer." (A very sad song, isn't it?) Will we learn more about Cuff, do you think?  I feel I'm in the hands of a master storyteller.

JoanP

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #236 on: April 24, 2013, 11:50:59 AM »
Now I'm really confused...not at all how I pictured the rosery behind the Verinder estate...although they DO resemble one another!


 Moss Rose (Portulaca grandiflora)  I never considered the Portulaca a rose




Rosa canina is a variable climbing wild rose species native to Europe, northwest Africa and western Asia. It is a deciduous shrub normally ranging in height from 1–5 m, though sometimes it can scramble higher into the crowns of taller trees.

Frybabe

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #237 on: April 24, 2013, 12:33:10 PM »
I think this better explains the moss rose in the book
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/ezine.php?publicationID=216&js=0

I actually never heard of Portulaca being called moss rose. Rosa canina is the dog rose of the book, very sturdy root stock.

The Last Rose of Summer:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nc55QYn970


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #238 on: April 24, 2013, 02:43:54 PM »
JoanP the moss rose you found is an annual and so I think Collins is talking about the old fashioned roadside wild rose that we also call a moss rose, although I do not think that is its formal name.

But yes the grafting - I wondered if that was meant as an analogy to Godfrey from new money being grafted onto the old respected titled family.  

And Franklin is turning into a dark horse isn't he - what is the secret he and Rachel are at odds about. And if Rosanna was going to kill herself I do not understand why she was even introduced into the story - so far I can see nothing she added only a filler to help us see behavior of and to the poor even if trying to help them out of their misery. If pretty and without a deformed shoulder she still would not be an acceptable wife for Franklin regardless his Bohemian education. Was she a secret assistant to Rachel and there is something else going on? What were the chains all about and the box she purchased from her friends in town? And yes, the gravel path could easily cover anything buried.

According to the Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols the suggestion of grass could represent grass is a symbol for unsefulness and submission and a handfull of grass is victory, conquest of land, surrender. However, while gravel is not a symbolic word when reading, it is made up of crushed stones and then we can see there can be a connection to the split Rock precipice creating the Bay.

Now those coastal rock or stone does have symbolic meaning of permanence, stability coldness and hardness and as dual rocks they would be considered a celestial doorway giving access to another realm such as Christ is the rock, the source of living waters since we have the sea gushing daily between the split rocks signifies the waters of salvation - BUT then we have a split or broken stone signifying death and GET This, various jewels not only have life-giving properties but turned into sacred stones in a Lunar cult, symbolizes the moon as an ally to both fertility and coldness. In all nomadic and hunting tribes, stones are the 'bones of Mother Earth'
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online
« Reply #239 on: April 24, 2013, 02:56:07 PM »
Aha - a Franklin is a medieval land owner - and within the Chaucer tales we have the Franklin Tales that includes the story of Dorigen and Aurelius - bits and pieces seem to match Franklin, Rachel, Rosanna the coastal rocks -

http://thebestnotes.com/booknotes/Canterbury_Tales/Canterbury_Tales29.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe