Elegance of the Hedgehog ~ Muriel Barbery ~ Book Club Online ~ April 1st

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

"Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -    "Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence  from a world she finds meaningless.  The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.

Discussion Schedule: April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27 April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~  pgs.31-129 April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170 April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315 April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325 Final Thoughts

For Your Consideration
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs.316-325

1. Do you find yourself wishing that the book ended before the "My Camellias" chapter?  Did the preceding chapters prepare you for such an ending?

2.  How did the swings in mood and tone from scenes of comedy to moments of tragedy  affect your reaction to the novel?  Was it important or distracting to hear from the altenating narrators?

3.  Who are Renée's Camellias?  What new information was revealed in her final thoughts of each of them?   

4. Why does Renée believe that Manuela  will feel remorse for the dry cleaning incident?   And then, why did Manuela collapse with the words, "forgive me"  on her lips? 

4. What are Renée's final thoughts of Kakuro - and "what might have been"? 

5.  Why does Renée begin to cry at the thought of Paloma, the daughter she never had?  What does she wish for her?

6. "The important thing is not the fact of dying, but what you were doing in the moment of your death."  What does Renée say she was doing?

7. Do you think it was significant that Renée died while trying to help the homeless drunk who ran into the traffic?

8.  Why does Paloma feel shame when she learns of Mme. Michel's death?   Did she ever really intend to commit suicide?  Had she understood its meaning until now?

9.   On what note does the author choose to end the story?  Were you affected or changed in any way by this book?

10.  How would you rate this novel on the whole, the writing, the storytelling, the message?  Would you be interested in reading another novel by the same author?
  Do you feel that the translation from the French text reflected the exact meaning the author wrote? Were there hard to understand words or sentences? How do you rate this translation?
 

Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English);
Glossary of posted Definitions
French-English Dictionary;
Hôtels particuliers; An Interview with Muriel Barbery;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Eloise

[Eloise]

Paloma says about the umbrella stand for her mother’s birthday gift. ‘Don’t you find it disturbing, on some level, to think that an umbrella stand can cost two hundred and eighty-nine euros? And yet that is what Hélène paid for this pretentious object in “fatigued leather” (my foot: rubbed with an iron brush maybe) with saddlemaker’s stitching, as if we lived on a stud farm.  “fatigued leather” Too funny, I love this kid.

Now we are beginning to see a Renée coming out of her shell dressed up in the plum-coloured dress, hair puffed up going to Kakuro’s apartment to view the film. She says: I have abandoned the idea of hiding my new appearance from the world. And low and behold she comes face to face with Madame Pallières who immediately notices the hair, the tray with Manuella’s patisseries and she takes that opportunity of talking down to Renée “As you are headed that way, would you water the flowers on the landing?”  Not taking into account that Renée was off on Sundays.

I wonder Joan if Renée could have had a job more fitting of her knowledge and intelligence considering her physical appearance and her lack of any diploma or certificate. Can you picture her in an interview?   

At least as a concierge she could better pursue her passion for reading, something she couldn’t very well do somewhere else. Who would have taken her seriously had she been employed in an academic institution for instance?

Traude, I am not sure that the author is skewing only French society? There are people everywhere who like to make people feel inferior because they have more money or an academic degree they can flaunt at inferiors.

Satire on a grand scale.

Joan, how interesting about Pierre Arthens.
 
 
 

[Babi]

It also has parts in which I feel she needed to do a rewrite or needed a better editor

.
 I agree with you there, JUDE. It was Mme. Michel who read the thesis, tho'.
 I suspect the reason that Colombe's studies were not mentioned before is that the author decided to add that bit so she could discuss William Ockham. She also criticizes the attempt to distort Ockham's work to fit a students own theories. Which makes me wonder if she was especially annoyed when her students did that...as I'm sure they often would.

No, JOANP, you are right. The dry cleaners didn't 'give' Renee the dress. The employee pulled out the wrong dress by mistake. Renee found the dress so tempting she took it, with the intention of returning it after her evening with Kakuro. Unethical, to be sure, but surely very human.
  Renee is breaking out of that mental image she had of herself.  Remember
that sense of underlying entrapment in her words,  “..here am I, Renee, 54 years of age, with bunions on my feet,  born in a bog and bound to remain there,….”[/i]  She is beginning to believe she is not bound to remain there.

[straudetwo]

JoanP, you said  "Especially when she got down to the similar motivations of each - when she spoke about the reason why kids burn cars."

Is "she" the author, and where does she (and in whose voice) explain why kids burn cars? I remember Paloma referring in one of her Profound Thoughtgs to kids burning cars in the banlieues but no specific explanation.
I'm in a rush again and don't have the time to check the book now.  Could you please point me to the right spot? Thanks in advance.

[straudetwo]

I found the reference in Paloma's Profound Thoughts No. 15 in the last full paragraph on page 254.
But it does not contain an explanation of why kids burn cars - in the banlieues or anywhere else, only questions.

  "Journalists talk about unemployment and poverty; I talk about te selfishness and duplicity of my family. But these are all hollow phrases. There have always been unemployment and poverty and pathetic families...."   etc. down to the last two sentences,

Why do people burn cars?   Why do I want to set fire to the apartment?"

[JoanP]

I made a note about those kids in the banlieues burning cars, Traudee, because I thought it important in explaining why Paloma is/was thinking of burning her apartment - and why Renee hides her intelligence under a bushel basket in her loge.

Paloma sees kids burning cars in the banlieues of Paris - on TV in Madame Michel's apartment and wonders why they are doing such a senseless thing.  She begins to wonder why she wants to burn her own home down.  Later that day when shopping with her aunt and cousin for that expenseive umbrella stand Eloise describes - she has a profound thought that provides the answer. (This  all starts  in Profound Thought #14 - Traudee - continue to the restaurant where the shoppers stop for lunch. They meet a couple with a little boy they had adopted from Thailand after his parents died in a tsunami.  Paloma's profound thought occurs as she thinks about his future, and how he will manage growing up in a culture  with values not his own.  After you read those pages, starting on the last line of page 254, I would like to know if you think it explains Renee's alienation from her environment.   Did you wonder why Paloma likes and accepts this wealthy aunt and uncle, but not her own family?

Babi - you say you wonder whether the author was especially annoyed when her students distorted their research to fit their own theories - I'll bet she was ...and I think she had a beef with  professors who accept such mediocre work without comment - perhaps the  entire education system is at fault.

[JoanP]

 Eloise, I really don't know what Renee could have done with all her knowledge - but she could have done something other than to hide it, couldn't she?  Was it really poverty that kept her down - or was it something within,  that she feared to venture out into the world.  This is modern France, not the 19th century!  Surely she could have done something with the knowledge she had acquired.

No,  I don't see Renee coming out of her loge and making any major life changes just yet , El, - but as you say, she no longer intends to hide from the world.  Have you noticed that she is letting others (besides Manuela) into her secret world now?  That's quite a change.    She's running a mini salon here in the concierge's quarters, much to the puzzlement of the wealthy tenants.   There were many humorous moments, weren't there? All mixed in with the philosophical.  I think it is the humor that makes it work - at least for me.  I'd have given up trying to follow William of Ockham a long time ago, if it wasn't for the fun mixed in.

I have a hunch about that plum dress mix-up - went back and read the whole passage more closely once again.  Tell me what you think -

Manuela stops in the concierge's loge to hear all about the first date .  She sees the mess Madame has made of the beige dress.  Tells her that it doesn't matter, because Maria says she can keep everything, including  the beige dress, but that Madame Michel will have to pay the dry cleaning bill. 

 When Manuela learns that her services are needed again for another date in Kakuro's apartment, she  is so eager to help - she offers to prepare not only the gloutof, the whiskey tarts, tuiles...in other words, she overdoes it for her friend.  When Renee went to the dry cleaner to pick up the beige dress and the girl came back with the plum, Renee didn't say that it wasn't her dress - but I'm wondering if Manuela didn't take another of those dresses that Maria said she could have - and give it to the dry cleaner to give to Renee when she came in to pick up the beige? I wouldn't be surprised if Manuela did that - though I am a bit surprised that Renee walked out with a dress she knew was not the one she brought in. 
What does that say about her character?  Perhaps that she  wishes to look really nice once again when she goes up to watch the film with her new friend?

 

[Babi]

she could have done something other than to hide it, couldn't she?

(JoanP)
   I don't know, JOAN.  As a practical matter, given her background and need
to keep a low profile, I find it difficult to think of any way she could have used her knowledge for the benefit of others.  Her reading is her solace.

I remember when we were talking about Renee’s  attitude toward the rich and privileged, and I felt it was because  they wasted their opportunities their privilege gave them?  On p. 252, I found support for that.  She says “..privilege brings with it true obligations”.    And on the same page,:  “The only thing that matters is your intention; are you elevating thought and contributing to the common good.,”
   That sounds as though Renee is not practicing what she preaches, unless you consider that she is speaking of the opportunities open to the rich and privileged. She has never had those opportunities.  Within her very small circle, only Manuela to begin with, she does hold a good intention and tries to contribute to their common good.
   I have, incidentally, misjudged Manuela. She is not buying expensive pastries nor cadging them from employers. She is herself a pastry cook par excellence!

[straudetwo]

Yes, Babi,  and Manuela's sister is also a talented baker, it says somewhere.

JoanP, may I say that I have difficulty with "vocarious gloutof"?

Éloïse would you help, please? See Chapter 5. The Antipodes.

I have never heard of  "gloutof" . The term is not listed in my Larousse French-English/English-French dictionary, nor in my French Larousse thesaurus.
There IS a delicious Alsatian bundt cake called Kugelhopf (aka Gugelhupf and similar variations).  My mother baked it often. So did I, in my baking days.

Here is a link. As you may know, linking is not my forte. Forgive me if it doesn't work.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browser/kugelhopf

Please note that Idon't mean to be finicky about 'voracious' in connection with "gloutof" by whatever spelling.  We know what it means and use it often, e.g. in 'voracious reader'. 
But with respect, how CAN a CAKE can be 'voracious'?   Those who eat it, yes. 

P.S. I'm sorry, the link did not work for me.  I'm sure you have better luck.

[Laura]

Eloise, I do think Renee could have had a different life path, if she had chosen to try.  She resigned herself to her position as concierge, not unsatisfied because it allowed her to study on her own.  However, I think she sold herself short.

Joan, that is an interesting idea about Manuela “planting the violet dress” for Renee to pick up at the dry cleaners instead of the beige one.  Building on your idea, could that moment when Renee paused to think have been when she realized what her friend had done and accepted her help?  Hmmm…

I want to point out my favorite passage in the book (so far, anyway), an exchange between Renee and Monsieur Kakuro on page 303:

“They didn’t recognize me,” I say.
I come to a halt in the middle of the sidewalk, completely flabbergasted.
“They didn’t recognize me,” I repeat.
He stops in turn, my hand still on his arm.
“It is because they have never seen you,” he says.  “I would recognize you anywhere.”

How true!  Renee’s clients have never seen the real Renee, and certainly never taken the time to try to see the real Renee.  How powerful that statement Monsieur Kakuro makes is! 

[Babi]

Me, too, TRAUDE. My response to 'voracious gloutof' was "Huh?".  I wonder if gloutof is simply a corruption of the word 'kugelhopf' (or gugelhopf)?

  I can't really see Manuela involving the dry cleaners in a scheme to get another dress to her friend. She has demonstrated that she is very persuasive; 'planting' a dress just seems too far-fetched.

 Oh, yes, LAURA. That is a great passage and a powerful observation. A line I
thought great was  “Eternity; for all its invisibility, we gaze at it.” That was from Paloma. Later, still in self-analysis, Paloma says  “…for some unknown reason, I am hypersensitive to anything that is dissonant.”
 Well, that is a necessary beginning, but having recognized one’s vulnerability,
…or weakness…how does one learn to deal with it?  Not everyone does.

Ah, Barbery writes of the music from Dido and Aeneas, and makes me long to hear it. This is not the first time she has evoked that yearning in me.  “Broken steps, melting sounds.”   What an ear for music she must have, and what a gift for expressing what she hears.  “Art is life, playing to other rhythms.”

[Eloise]

http://www.aftouch-cuisine.com/recipes-theme/gloutofs-alsatian-cake.htm

Traude all I could find in Google was that it can be different recipies including a marble chocolate cake. Manuela says it "keeps" I guess she means that it can stay fresh for a day as usually French pastries are bought and eaten on the same day. I find that the author likes to use unknown and foreign words and we have to run to Google to find out what they mean. I like Google better than looking something up in the dictionary. There is more choice and it's faster.

In the 6th chapter the translator had to be an acrobat to translate the conversation going on between Renée, Manuela and Kakuro. I had to double check several things because that seemed so unlikely. I must praise Allison Anderson for the trouble she went through and Barbery takes many liberties, for me it makes the book more interesting. She translated "poudinngueuh" and "rutebi" with "pudding-ghe" and "roog-eby", what else could she do considering they were pronounced by French people. 

Babi here is one rendition of Dido and Aeneas by Purcell that I found on Utube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbFrOP8rgs

I understand what you are saying about Renée selling herself short Laura. Of course she is but because her childhood was so attrocious, I am not surprised that she has so little self esteem. I would not think that not sharing her knowledge and intelligence was selfish, she didn't think anybody cared about that and for me her voracious reading was her solitary heaven. Had she had any children, it would be different because she would have shared with them.   

[JoanP]

Can you stand yet another Susan Boyle comparison?  There is another home video out this morning - she's singing at her parents' golden anniversary when she was 25.   You've all heard of Susan Boyle - even in the Antipodes, Gum.

I can't watch this video too many times - without thinking of Renée.  Will  put it here again in case you haven't seen it - or would like to see it again...and again...Be sure to press the little red botton following the volume icon to get the full screen.  You can press ESC on your computer to minimize it again.

Susan Boyle - on Britain's Got Talent  

Susan has a gift - she hasn't become a star with her star-quality voice before this - because she hasn't had an opportunity to do so.  Does this sound familiar?  She lives at home alone - with her cat. But that doesn't mean she hides her talents.  She has been singing  at her church, family gatherings, funerals...her brother says that whenever she sings, the room falls silent.  Last week she sang the Ave Maria at his mother-in-law's funeral and stunned the assembled.  She is using her gift - to serve the common good, wouldn't you say?  Here's the video from  her parents' anniversary when she was 25 years old -

Susan Boyle sings for parents' anniversary

I try to keep in mind that Renée is living in the 21st century.  There is no good reason why she couldn't have used her knowledge - for the good of others.  There must be so many organizations that could have used her knowledge.  Libraries, for one.   Couldn't she have volunteered in classrooms, or youth groups.  How about writing?  She was so quick to analyze and find fault with Colombe's thesis...why not try her own hand at writing (as Madame Barbery did.)

Well, we know now why she kept her talent hidden...she has confessed it all to the quiet child, the Judge of Humanity who held her hand as she explained her fears. 
Exactly what was she afraid of?  What is she afraid of now?  It's safe to say she was traumatized by the death of her sister.  Do  you sense that she is fully recovered now that she has confessed to Paloma - put into words something that she has told to no one before?
What was Paloma's role in the healing process?

I was going to comment more on your posts - but I used up available time watching 47 year old Susan Boyle come out of her shell on that stage.  We can only hope that Renée has this same opportunity at 54!
  She's free now to do anything she wants to do, be anything she wants to be.  What do you think that will be?

[Eloise]

Joan, I am trying to compare the two, but I can only see a resemblance in the fact that they are both past 45, they both are very talented, both are overweight, is there something I am missing? I see more of a difference than a resemblance.

Susan is unemployed and freer to volunteer, perform and share than Renée. Susan is prettier, outgoing, friendly, funny and generous. She has a healthy self confidence. She seeks fame and fortune. In a couple of years when she has become famous, she will be slimmer, without a double chin, her hair-which is a mess-will be fashionably coiffed, her eyebrows will be thinned out from the bush she is wearing over her eyes. Then she will be downright beautiful when fame has caught up with her and made her rich.   

Renée is probably beyond getting thin, never will be pretty or get to perform in front of an audience to display her brilliant mind and vast knowledge she acquired from a mishmash of philosophy, music and art gathered here and there by haphazard reading  and not acquired within a structured academic environment. She is a loner, has an unforgiving nature, is resentful and critical of the wealthy and would not think of volunteering. She is so afraid of letting anyone know she is intelligent that it makes her sick when somebody accidentally finds out what books she reads.

Psychoanalysis would/might be able to bring her out, but right now only romance can rescue her. Will it be Kakuro? Well I hope so.   

[JoanP]

There are differences, aren't there....  Both were 12 years old when they became aware of their talents.  Both are rather frustrated because they are unable to share their talents with the world.  Susan B. had a dream, but no opportunity.  Somehow she learned to sing the way she does.  Was she an autodidact do you suppose?  Our Renee has no opportunity to do anything with her knowledge - no dream either.

But now we know why!  Susan Boyle's mother always wanted her to do something with her voice.  It was her dying wish, contrary to Renée's parents' attitude - conveyed to the child -  that she was doomed to  the punishment of death " if I ever sought to make good use of my mind in defiance of my class.' 

 It's the 21st century!  But Renée's parents are living in the ignorance of the past!  Paloma's parents are hip, modern and upper class - and yet they have little understanding of how their values are affecting their child.

Why do kids in the suburbs burn cars?  Why does Paloma talk of burning down her own apartment?   Why is Renée living her  whole life in secrecy?

ps.  El, the bushy brows and gray roots are gone...a $57 makeover!

[Eloise]

On Page 286 Chapter 12, Sisters, Renée talks about the time when her sister came back from the big city. Lucien says:

A mother who loves her children always knows when they are in trouble. Personally, I do know much care for this interpretation. Nor do I feel any resentment toward that mother who was not a mother. Poverty is a reaper: it harvests everything inside us that might have made us capable of social intercourse with others, and leaves us empty, purged of feeling, so that we may endure all the darkness of the present day.

This to me is why Renée became the woman she is. Not only because of poverty but also rejection from the only person who could demonstrate love because poverty alone does not cause one to become anti social. Poverty leaves one empty without feeling and with a hard armor she can endure some kind of normalcy in her life but poverty without love creates people like Renée.

[MarjV]

Since you are talking about Susan Boyle - here she is singing Cry me a River fthat someone found.

http://www.njnnetwork.com/njn/?p=9212

[Babi]

 That was kind of you, ELOISE, but my lament at wishing I could hear
Dido and Aeneas was because I've lost the last of my hearing. I might
possibly be able to hear a baritone or basso, but I doubt it. Now I have
a new loss to regret...not being able to hear Susan Boyle, who 'stunned'
people with her beautiful voice.

 I also found the phrase you quoted..about poverty...to be greatly significant in explaining Renee.  I also made a note of what immediately preceded your quote.  Renee’s remembrances of her mother: “this coarse woman who brought her children into the world in the same way she turned over the soil or fed the hens, this illiterate woman, so exhausted by life that she never even called us by the names she had given us…”    Barbery’s description of  a poverty  so grinding, an isolation from the modern world almost unbelievable, goes a long way toward explaining Renee’ Michel.

  Paloma's role in Renee's story of her sister's death seems to me to simply be to listen.  But that is exactly what Renee needed.  Her shell is beginning to crack and she needed someone she felt she could trust, in order to lance that festering old wound.  On pg. 277,  you can find “The peace of mind one experiences on one’s own, one’s certainty of self in the serenity of solitude, are nothing in comparison to the release and openness and fluency one shares with another, in close companionship.”

[JoanP]

Oh wow, Marj - I'm listening to "Cry Me a River" as I type - Susan B. sounds like she is singing from the bottom of her soul - doesn't sound like someone who's never been kissed, does she?

The similarities between Susan and Renée continue - this, from the site you brought us -

Susan suffered a mild form of brain damage at birth and she admitted to Sawyer that she was bullied when she was younger. “They did a bit,” she said, “but they always do that with someone who is quiet and I tended to be quiet at school.

She was quiet at school, but began singing for her family  - keeping her voice from those outside her home.

The major difference between the two - as I see it, was parental support -
Susan said in the same interview

when Diane Sawyer asked what she would say to her late parents if she could, she replied: “I would like to say thank you for supporting me over the years, thank you for looking after me and I hope I can make you proud.”

Eloise made the point yesterday - speaking of Renée's parents -  "Poverty is a reaper: it harvests everything inside us that might have made us capable of social intercourse with others."

Babi, do  you think the author is making a general comment about the effect sof poverty on all parents who live this life?  Do you agree with this generality?

[JoanP]

I see from the calendar that we are ready to move on  to the final chapter.  While others are reading those last ten pages, I'd like to hear your thoughts on  the significance of the falling rosebud.  I can see it's importance to the story, but really don't know what it is.  I agree a rosebud is beautiful, but when a rosebud falls, without ever opening, that makes me sad.  Paloma sees Beauty in the movement between life and death - watching the beautiful bud fall to its death. 

 Babi - I think the importance of the Dido and Aeneas music - is  in Purcell's words - important as were the words of Mozart's Requiem.  I'll go see if I can find them.

when I am laid in earth
am laid in earth
may my wrongs create
no trouble no trouble in thy breast

remember me!
remember me!
but ah!
Forget my fate!

 

[Eloise]

MarJ, thank  you for Cry Me a River. This singer has the perfect pitch that usually is achieved after long years of training. In Cry Me a River, the chords change almost every bar and the singer has to have a perfect ear not to sing off key. She has that capacity and I haven't read anything yet about any training she could have had in the past. It seems to me she has a natural talent and at this rate she should make it to the top charts within a year. 

When she says she didn't have the opportunity, perhaps it is because she lives in a small village or that she wasn't free to leave her aged mother to pursue her career, very noble of her, more things to make her the darling of the media. .

Babi, I am sorry that you lost your hearing, It is a great loss and it is hard to imagine what life would be without being to hear. My sister lost hers quickly apparently because of other health issues. She is taking lip reading lessons, but it’s a long process.

I look forward to what you will all say about the last pages.

[JoanP]

I too, am looking forward to  reactions to the last chapter, Eloise.  Could Mme. Barbery have ended the book before the "My Camellias"  chapter?   Did the preceding chapters prepare you for such an ending?

Please let us know what you thought!

[JudeS]

Eloise
Thank you so much for the beautiful rendition of Dido and Aeneas by Purcell. I went further on this site and lastened to the version by Jessy Norman. Oh, it is even more beautiful !
Death laments of this type are often beautiful but leave one rather despondent afterwards

So I listened to an amazing CHINESE choir putting on songs in Yiddish and Hebrew in honor of the Holocaust memorial day.
My spirits were lifted and it is time to go to bed.

[Laura]

I couldn’t fully appreciate the image of the dead rosebud falling of the stem, before it even had a chance to bloom, until I finished the book.  I believe that the rosebud is a metaphor for Renee; she died just as she was about to bloom, but never had a chance to fully reveal herself, like the flower of the rosebud had not yet revealed itself.

The ending was shocking!  Yes, the author could have ended the book before this final section.  However, the reader would have been left with many unanswered questions.

When I read that Renee had been killed, my first thought was that her death would lead to Paloma’s suicide.  Thank goodness Renee’s death had the opposite effect on Paloma and she resolves to live.

And, in the end, I do think there could have been a budding romance (pun intended) between Renee and Monsieur Kakuro.

[Babi]

 No, JOANP, I don't think so. There are degrees of poverty,
 of course, and Renee's family seems to fall in the category
of 'grinding'. But more than that, the family seems to have
been somewhat isolated from the mainstream of progress. Generations
of this kind of life can produce what one might call 'stunted'
families.

ELOISE, I did at least have the good fortune(?) of losing the hearing
in one ear as an infant. I have therefore been in the habit of
looking at people's lips as they speak all my life. This is of
great help now.  Of course, not everyone enunciates clearly, and
one friend must be reminded to remove the cigar from his mouth when
speaking to me. I now carry a small notepad with me, and when I
am wholly unable to understand what someone is telling me, they
are very nice about writing a short note.

A Chinese choir singing in Yiddish! How wonderful. Thanks, JUDE.

 For Renee, first Mr. Uzo and now Paloma.  “I sat there for countless minutes holding hands, not speaking.  I have become friends with a lovely 12-year-old to whom I feel very grateful, and however incongruous this connection may be…….nothing can taint my emotion.”

 What a nice added surprise this was, the reappearance of a changed Jean Arthens.  His father dies, and Jean is resurrected.  Does that seem a stretch?   My attention was caught by the simple line, “I wasn’t very talkative in those days….well, in my father’s days.”     Arthens, Sr. was one of those our sensitive Paloma referred to as ‘nasty’ people.  I suspect Jean Arthens simply couldn’t  bear the awareness of what/who his father was. But what a happy
discovry this was for Renee.

“And I wonder how well I myself can see.”


 

[Eloise]

Jude, Very soulful and sad, but Jessy Norman sings it to perfection I agree. Did you think that Renée had a premonition of her death?

Paloma says:

   In any event, Kakuro and I went down to the loge. But while we were crossing the courtyard we stopped short, both of us at the same time: someone had begun to play the piano and we could hear very clearly what they were playing. It was Satie. I think, well, I’m not sure)but anyway it was classical).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBiPQKK1upk

I thought that Gymnopédie by Satie is appropriate at this time, what do you think?

And, in the end, I do think there could have been a budding romance (pun intended) between Renee and Monsieur Kakuro.

Isn't it sad when we were starting to have hope that Renée would finally find happiness?


Babi, I wonder if it is not often the case when a father dies and the eldest son suddenly realizes he is at the head of the family. It happened to me and I can even say that he still has that role even after so many years.

Paloma in the end becomes so mature.

Don’t worry Renée, I won’t commit suicide and I won’t burn a thing.
Because from now on, for you, I’ll be searching for those moments of always within never.
Beauty in the world.

Don’t you love those two hedgehogs in the end?

[JudeS]

Eloise
Again much thanks for making it so easy  to go to the site of Erik Satie's Gymnopede for the piano.  I was not familiar with the work previously and felt it was extremely appropriate  to the circumstances of Renee's death.

Sometimes music is more meaningful than words.  I reread the chapter of Renee's demise.  The author describes the last thoughts of this woman who ,lying on the street, dying, says good-bye to all that is precious to her.

Sadly, my sarcastic mind sees each good-bye tied up with a pretty pink ribbon. 

Paloma is now "cured" of her suicidal thoughts and desire to burn down her parents home and all that is precious to them.
Sorry to say that this is a crock-although a pseudo clever crock.  If you have ever known suicidal teens or those so angry that they wished to burn  homes(or cars) you know that losing one of the people who have meaning for them doesn't calm them but creates even more sorrow and unrest.  Although not neccessarily suicide. Anger at others replaces anger at self which is one of the main causes of teen suicide.

Mr O. is a more psychologically together character and holds things together for me as he did for others. But it is his Vietnamese Aide who witnessed the accident  and makes a practical attempt to help.

In giving a final overview I ,personally, have learned much more from the participants posts and in depth comments than I have from this book. Many of you have wide swaths of knowledge ,  which have made coming back to the site a fascinating experience.

So thanks to the leaders and the other exceptional folk who have so unstintingly given so much time and thought to the discussion. 

[JoanP]

The ending was shocking, I'll agree with you, Laura.  Was it necessary for Renée to die?   You're right, there would have been so many unanswered questions.  Were they answered?  Did Renée have to die to answer the questions?

Eloise asks if Renée had a premonition of her death.  I can't help but remember the lesson she had learned when  Lisette died (beautiful Lisette, dead because she was beautiful, but poor, doomed because she tried to make it in another world - a fallen rosebud?)  Renée realized then that she was intelligent as Lisette was beautiful, but poor.  She would be doomed to a similar punishment if she ever sought to make good use of her mind in defiance of her  class.  So if this what happened?  Is this her punishment for the moments of joy and happiness?  Eloise, perhaps this was her premonition?  Did she know this would have happen if she dared defy her class?  Is this the moral of the story?

Babi, don't you wish Renée could have survived the way Jean Arthens did?  The camellias gave him hope.  Renée referred to her three camellias, Manuella, Paloma, M.Ozu.  They helped her to see that she could be anything she wanted to be.  But I have to ask again - did she have to die?

Jude, I am thinking of what you said - "each goodbye  wrapped up in a pretty ribbon." I thought that myself when she thought of everyone - including the cat - and  Olymphe.  I would have been satisfied if her final  thoughts went to  Manuela, Paloma and M. Ozu, her camellias.  With all the detail, the  real message tended to get lost - in the moss.
Don't you feel Paloma was leaving behind her suicidal thoughts before the accident?  I did.  I don't think Renée had to die for her to realize that.  Paloma felt she was healed...by helping Renée...

[Laura]

Jude said:  Paloma is now "cured" of her suicidal thoughts and desire to burn down her parents home and all that is precious to them.
Sorry to say that this is a crock-although a pseudo clever crock.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that it would be a crock if Paloma were indeed cured by Renee’s death.  However, I don’t think Paloma’s writings about suicide were seriously thought out, let alone intended to be carried out.  I think she thought she was suicidal because she was able to think and write about what she could/would do, but, aside from savings a few sleeping pills, did nothing that truly indicated her intentions to actually commit suicide.  For these reasons, I was fine with the ending.  I think Renee’s death helped her realize how “not serious” she was in her suicidal thoughts.

Joan, I’m pondering your questions.  More tomorrow.

[Babi]

The Ronsard poem:

  ROSES
RONSARD, 1550.

I send you here a wreath of blossoms blown,
And woven flowers at sunset gathered,
Another dawn had seen them ruined, and shed
Loose leaves upon the grass at random strown.
By this, their sure example, be it known,
That all your beauties, now in perfect flower,
Shall fade as these, and wither in an hour,
Flowerlike, and brief of days, as the flower sown.

Ah, time is flying, lady--time is flying;
Nay, 'tis not time that flies but we that go,
Who in short space shall be in churchyard lying,
And of our loving parley none shall know,
Nor any man consider what we were;
Be therefore kind, my love, whiles thou art fair.

The death of Renee’ Michel does seem an easy out,  as though the author did not quite know how to continue satisfactorily with the progress of her story or bring it to a realistic conclusion.  Or perhaps she just felt that to leave with wounds healed, at a time of happiness and contentment, is better than to go on with life and it’s inevitable troubles to come.  If life has it’s valleys and mountain peaks, is it better to stop on the mountain?

[Eloise]

http://www.vertpomme.net/pages/innocence/les_roses_de_ronsard.htm

Vivez si m'en croyez

N'attendez à demain

Cueillez dès aujourd'hui

Les roses de la vie !

Pierre de Ronsard


Thank you Babi for Ronsard's poem. So apropos.

[Laura]

I haven’t decided if Renee had to die.  However, I do think that how she died is significant --- she was running after Gegene, “the tramp” who was drunk at the time.  She died trying to help a person of a lower class than herself.  I doubt that her clients in the building would have chased after him.  I am not sure exactly how this bit fits into the overall theme of class divisions, but I feel it must.

[straudetwo]

Laura,
At various times yesterday and today I've tried to express my feelings but, try as I might, nothing gelled, nothing sounded right. Your last post gave me the impetus I needed. Thank you.
Also, I totally agree - could not agree more - with the preceding  posts.
 
Summing up after an intense discussion is not always easy, especially not in this case because questions remain, and some of them are unanswerable.  What,  then,  IS one to make of this book that became an international bestseller even though it has no plot,  no driving action, no steamy sex (considered essential these days) ? Perhaps a phenomenon.   Fine and good.
But the praise is not universal.

For one thing, the book's ending is precipitate,  baffling and leaves the reader hanging.
I'm glad we have another day to ponder.













Even though there were subtle red flags, for example in the titles  of the book's last section.

[JoanP]

"That all your beauties, now in perfect flower,
Shall fade as these, and wither in an hour"

I loved the Ronsard poem - thank you, Babi!  I can understand the beauty of Paloma's rosebud better now.  She was observing something beautiful - short-lived, but I think she was talking about the importance of appreciating the present.

Eloise...such a lovely sight - and sound!  Another Ronsard, the same message!

"Don't wait until tomorrow -
Gather today the roses of life.'

Does anyone know who said:
"GATHER ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying"?

Laura, I'm going to go reread something before responding to something you wrote today...

Traudee - we were typing at the same time.  I agree with you, this is a difficult book to evaluate - easier to find  the problems, than to look for the strenghts.  With the time remaining (we can stay open a few extra days ) - I'd like to be sure we  consider the strengths too.  We are  looking forward to hearing your comments. 

[JoanP]

Well, Laura, the more I think back and see all the references to death, the falling rosebud, Mozart's Requiem, the "lugubrious" black funeral dress that Renee almost wore to dinner with Kakuro - before Manuela interfered with that plan - everything was pointing to death, wasn't it?

When you couple the fear from childhood  that she would be doomed to similar punishment as her sister if she "ever sought to make good use of her mind - in defiance of her class."  with what you just pointed out - "She died trying to help a person of a lower class than herself."- I think we are getting close to something  - but WHAT?

Paloma, too wise for her years, in my estimate, concluded in an earlier chapter - it is not the fact of dying, but what you are doing in the moment of your death.  She was actually trying to help the homeless tramp.  But did you notice what she says on p. 320? 

"What was I doing in the moment of my death?"  I had met another, and was prepared to love."

So we seem to have at least two issues here, breaking class barriers - and opening oneself to love - while we may?
I'm going to have to go back and reread the chapter when grandma went to the nursing home...Paloma made an observation - something to the effect that if you fear what the future holds, you aren't building the present, which will be tomorrow one day.  Mme. Barbery said it better, but to me, I think this was probably the most important message to me.
What was yours?

[Babi]

JOANP, "Gather ye rosebuds..." was by Robert Herrick, but it's message
is somewhat different, I think.

 Another quote from the thoughtful Paloma...…  “But if, on our world,
there is any chance  of becoming the person you haven’t yet become
….will I know how to seize that chance, turn my life into a garden
that will be completely different from my forebears?”
  Someone wondered why Renee's death did not make Paloma even
more angry and bitter. Perhaps that quote gives us an idea of
which direction her thoughts were taking.  And her conclusion that
that there is ‘an always within never”.

Perhaps the most important message to me was the line I posted earlier:
“And I wonder how well I myself can see.”


 

[Gumtree]

I don't know quite what to make of this book. The class struggle plays a strong part and I think Barbery is saying that friendship (and love) transcends such man-made barriers - that friendship is possible between those of such differing backgrounds and personalities as we find in Renee, Paloma, Manuela and Kakuro. They just need to open themselves to the possibility as indeed did both Renee and Paloma.

I certainly don't see Barbery's message as being that one must not cross the lines - that would negate all the progress made toward alleviating illiteracy and poverty around the world. Perhaps she is saying that there are too many Renee's in this world who hide their natural talent through fear or lack of opportunity or simply because they don't want to be seen as 'different' - much as Paloma hides her intelligence from her family, her teachers and her classmates.

I was not 'shocked' so much as startled at the surprise ending.  Renee's death definitely appears as  though Barbery is calling up her deux ex machina to resolve her story. My assumption is that she either couldn't continue her story or just simply couldn't pull the threads together for a satisfactory ending. Either way, this reader was left up in the air and somehow dissatisfied.

It's very difficult to say what my thoughts are - There are, of course, passages that are quite beautiful in content and beautiful in expression and many are filled with deep thoughts but it is sometimes difficult to grasp the meaning of the thought in relation to the characters so perhaps a little less introspection and a little more action could have been beneficial.

The insights into the text offered by everyone here were very helpful - as always Seniorlearn discussions are the best!

Thanks to all and especially JoanP and Eloise for leading us.
 

[JoanP]

"And I wonder how well I myself can see.”  Babi, isn't that a remarkable thing for any prepubescent-almost-teenager to say?  I think as we grow older, we have to ask ourselves that same question - because  it is easy to get set in our ways - and opinions, don't you think?  Without considering that others just may have a point. 

How did you all feel about the shifting back and forth between Paloma's musings - and those of the concierge?  Did it add anything to your understanding or enjoyment of the novel?  What purpose do you think Muriel Barbery had in mind?
I'm wondering if her role is to question the very things that Renée takes for granted?  Paloma isn't old enough to consider the lines as uncrossable that Gum refers to.  In a way, she must be dissatisfied with the lines the way they are drawn, or she wouldn't be talking about taking her own life to exit such a world.  But her  journals seem to be searching for a different way.  I think Renée  has accepted things the way they are - with bitterness.

But again, did she have to die to make the point that lines can be crossed?  Wasn't that clear from the preceding chapter? What was gained by Renée's death? Gum, I want to believe that it was more than the fact that Mme Barbery didn't know to end the book!  Maybe it was to demonstrate the need to live for the present - because despite all careful plans and hope for the future, you can get run over by a truck just like that!

Gum, you are so very welcome!  Honestly, the pleasure is all mine - ours.  I believe there are wonderful philosophical thoughts, references to beautiful works of art and music - and the the book is beautifully written.  I knew that the SeniorLearners would leave no rock unturned in unearthing all of the nuances of this gem!

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks Joan and Eloise for the email reminding us it was nearly over - as I shared in the email I became so busy with a seller and a couple of buyers that the last thing I wanted to pick up at night was a book listening to our concierge whinging away rather than making the effort to make friends.

I was caught back on page 98 and where there were some remarkable bits of philosophy offered up Renée absolutely drove me up a wall and so the book languished on the sofa. Last night did a forced read and read it right through finishing up at 5: this morning.

 Explanation for her attitude  unfolded but I could not get into it - I was looking at her more like a specimen  under glass - Having known so many wounded in childhood there are so many ways they get on in life with or without therapy and so I thought her childhood was being offered to us the reader as the reison d'être for her push me pull me behavior and what I saw throughout the book this snob attitude about acquiring knowledge - the admirable qualities seem to be an  understanding of the arts, philosophy, history etc.

As to our 12  year old Paloma, I could buy her advanced intellect and awareness of human nature but to have the social and emotional maturity of someone much older I just could not put together with again knowing kids with a high IQ - the scene that I could not buy and  yet, was key to Renée's growth was Paloma listening with a sad face and giving her the comfort and space she needed to pour out her story which Paloma says is giving her hope. Like an Al-anon or ACOS meeting but to impute her character with that much emotional and social maturity was more than I could buy and so again the characters became like a specimen that showed an exercise is the emotional growth opportunities needed by those who are wounded by life.

Now did anyone else run the Amazon and order the move - I did - found a copy for $10 - it won't be here till Friday and then the author Jiro Taniguchi - I've got a used copy of his 'The Walking Man'  coming as well -

I love what folks have shared about the beige matching her life and the plum her phoenix rising - which confuses me why the death. The only thing I could think of maybe it is that in life once we have an answer for our reason for being we have completed that life cycle.

I loved how well the author could inject humor - love the bit about the dogs in the hall - the ironic tone that Paloma used was a hoot - and then to see Barbery actually gave Renée a funny scene with the singing water closet was refreshing -

Thanks for the translation - that was a great help. I kept looking on line for an English translation and coming  up zero - but then I was thinking Mozart wrote it in Latin and maybe not.

I am glad I plowed through but I must say I enjoyed the Guernsey Potato Pie from last month more than this one.

What did catch my eye was the style of writing - the chapters that were from Paloma's voice were in a different type than the chapters from Renée - but more that technique of two stories told simultaneously - the first time I remember encountering that technique was reading Haruki Murakami's Kafka on the Shore - there was a bit of it used by that British author who wrote Atonement, forget his name and then a few months ago I read David Liss' new book The Whiskey Rebels where he used the devise to tell the story from two perspectives.

There were flashes in this book that reminded me of reading Haruki Murakami and it may be because of the Japanese influence that Barbery includes  in her story.

I also enjoyed the natural connection that appears in French centered novels with both Russia and Japan or rather Asia - I am working with a  young women now who is Chinese Indonesian and just came from living and working for 5  years in Paris. She wears her clothes with such quiet elegance for a  young women still in her twenties - reminds me of the difference I noticed when I first visited.

And then describing the taste of the various foods in the book was so French - seems to me we only recently talked about Lace Almond Tuiles that were also included in the Sunday food basket. I'll have to make some to have when the movie arrives.

[BarbStAubrey]

Part of that I have to ask is it her perception of herself or was she really such an ineffectual blob - because before she rises to wearing plum she had planted the Camilla that had a profound affect on the young man when he was at his low point in life. And so we can all have a positive affect on each other just as I am sure Manuela was grateful for the time she spent with Renée.

That is the question isn't it - what makes us feel we can risk a change in our perception of ourselves.

And Joan  I am really saying whinging - its not a mis-print for whining. The word meanings are sort of close but to me someone who whinges sounds less whiny and more in control of their justification for complaining.