Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Persuasion by Jane Austen

“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.' 'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.” ― Jane Austen, Persuasion Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.      Discussion schedule:        Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6        Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12

Some things to think about: Chapters 1-6

1. There are two examples in these early pages of Persuasion that changes people's lives. What  do you think of them? Who instigates them? Can you find more examples?

2. Austen is known for her sharp characterizations. Which of the characters in this opening section seem most true to life to you? Which the least? Do you feel you have met any in real life?

3. Anne, the middle child is ignored, put down, and expected to serve the others. Why? Do you feel this reflects anything in Austen's real life? How do you feel about her response to this?

4. How did Captain Wentworth become rich? What is Austen's treatment of the wider events of the day? Does this affect how you feel about the book?

5. Austen often indicates people's character by their manners. What examples can you find here?

6. Anne Elliot goes from the family estate, Kellynch Hall, to her sister's cottage at Uppercross, and the Musgrave house there.  How are the  environments different?  How are the three sisters different?1. There are two examples in these early pages of Persuasion that changes people's lives. What  do you think of them? Who instigates them? Can you find more examples?


Chapters 7-12

1. What are Anne's feelings on meeting Wentworth? What are Wentworth's? How do the differences in these feelings reflect the difference in their circumstance?

2. Two married women in this section are Mary and Mrs. Croft. How do they represent two extremes in reacting to the role of wife?

3. What are the two examples of "persuasion" in this section? How do you feel about them?

4. In this book, character is shown by the way people react to the choices and circumstances given them. Give some examples. What other ways might character be defined?

5. Is Wentworth's attitude toward Anne changing? If so, how and why?

DLs:   PatH & JoanK  

[PatH]

Thanks for that quote, Bellamarie.  It's a little frustrating to wonder what Austen would have added if she had time for her usual revising, but she did polish up the version she had nicely.  It makes sense that she might now turn to writing about older heroines as she aged, and be more somber because she was ill, but the whole story must be more complicated than that.  After she finished Persuasion, she started on another novel, Sanditon, which she left unfinished (probably about a third done) and unpolished.  It's comic and frivolous, and doesn't show any signs that it would turn serious.  It's also not very good, but it's a work in progress, probably would have gotten better as she worked it over.

We'll see more of Mrs. Croft and the Admiral in the next section.

[JoanK]

And BARB: good points about elegance. I love the quote from Cyrano:

“I have a different idea of elegance. I don't dress like a fop, it's true, but my moral grooming is impeccable. I never appear in public with a soiled conscience, a tarnished honor, threadbare scruples ...."

[bellamarie]

I was curious as to of how Jane Austen died, so I did some searching on Google, well lo and behold it seems there is no conclusive cause of death.  I read Addison's disease, Tuberculosis caught from cattle, arsenic poisoning (possibly given to treat a sickness which was common back then, or one mystery author even suspected possible arsenic poisoning on purpose.)  One of Austen's most recent biographers, Claire Tomalin, suggested in 1977 that lymphoma would better fit the novelist's reported conditions.  And there are so many others who came up with different possibilities. 

Something I never knew.....Jane Austen's mature works, Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, Mansfield Park and Emma were all published anonymously-signed "By a Lady" - and appeared from 1811 onwards.  Austen's last two works, Persuasion and Northanger Abbey, were released posthumously and were the first to identify her as the true author.

I just keep finding more and more facts and information that is so intriguing. 

PatH., " It makes sense that she might now turn to writing about older heroines as she aged, and be more somber because she was ill, but the whole story must be more complicated than that."

Your statement got me to thinking, and made me wonder how someone who was never married and died a spinster, could have such insight into the relationships of love, romance and marriage, without actually experiencing it herself.  I would have never guessed she had never married from reading her novels and never really knowing much about her until now.  It's a pity Cassandra had most of Jane's letter destroyed to protect her privacy after her death.  Imagine what more we could have learned about her if they still existed.

The schedule for the month's reading is not in the header so I was wondering which chapters we are to read next, so I do not go too far as I begin to read tonight.  We are expecting a Sunday of rain and chilly temps, so no football game for me, which means I can read the entire day if I so wish.

Ciao for now~   

[JoanK]

Bellkemarie: it's going into the heading now. Chapters 7-12.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, you caught us just as we were about to post the next schedule.  As JoanK says, it's chapters 7-12, which make a good unit.  We thought 5 days would be enough.  It takes a while to get into the book, and used to the language and conventions, but then it goes faster.

Comments, anyone?  Is this the right speed?  Everything can be changed to fit what anyone wants.

Bellamarie, I really appreciate your wish not to read ahead.  There is suspense in this novel, and you only get one chance at wondering how things will come out, so it adds to the fun if you don't read ahead.  (My one chance was long in the past, but i still remember my feelings.)

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm ready - must say that this is the first time I see an advantage to reading on the kindle - in the past reading Jane Austin the sentences seemed long and unruly and took up so much of the page if appeared as if they squeezed them in to accommodate the length of the book - usually I like knowing where in the book I am not just knowing the chapter but seeing the thickness of the number of pages still to read or that I have read but this time I am gliding through - it is so much easier reading Jane Austen with just a small window of words to read and no hurry to get so much read in order to feel accomplished. I have the type set at 2nd from the smallest and find it easy to read. Also having some of the background on the habits and what the words mean makes it a lot easier - with each read of Jane Austin i learn more - we did one a couple of years ago - was that Sense and Sensibility? Not remembering I do not think it was Mansfield. The biggest aha at the time was learning what a living was.

And yes PatH was it you who brought us the info about Jane Austen when she was writing this book about her view of women. That is what I am picking up - their lives were so held in by manners which may have been the unconscious desire to make something elegant out of a feeling of being caged by the patriarchy.

Poor Mary she is trapped not knowing how to raise her boys - if she keeps them close and obedient than they would be mama's boys and they have to grow up to take their place in this patriarchal controlled traditional society. Her husband does not seem like a bad sort so I am guessing when the boys are teens he will take them under his wing and together they will be out daily hunting and fishing unless, his parents die and then he has a purpose to maintain the estate.

[BarbStAubrey]

P.S. downright chilly here tonight - cold front blew in this evening and it is down into the 60s - haven't felt that since last early April. I've all the windows open...

[kidsal]

Chilly!  Yes, we had snow in Wyoming !!

[JoanP]

Here on the East Coast - still summer!  90 degrees! 

How come Anne is so good with Mary's children?  So much "sweeter" than both sisters. Same parents, same upbringing. What is JA telling us about Nature/ Nurture?

[bellamarie]

I love not reading ahead, it really does keep me excited to discuss the present chapters, and look forward to what is to come.  Once I read ahead when I first began in the book club, and regretted it, because I found I could not discuss the present chapters freely, due to fear of giving away what's to come.  This pace is perfect for me.  I happened to have a night to myself, and wanted to read the next chapters, since my Sunday was going to be busy, and did not want to read past the next assigned chapters. Thanks ladies for posting the schedule.

JoanP.,  "How come Anne is so good with Mary's children?  So much "sweeter" than both sisters. Same parents, same upbringing. What is JA telling us about Nature/ Nurture?"

I think Mary's children are so much "sweeter" with Anne, due to the fact Anne has a more calming personality.  I own my in home day care, and I can tell you from experience that children who are rowdy and unruly with their parents are completely different while in my care.  Parents are so busy they tend to not take the time to discipline when necessary, and be consistent, so it gives the children the signals they can keep doing what they are doing. As far as nature vs nurture, I am sure we have all seen parents who could benefit from taking parenting classes, or should not be parents at all.  I am not implying this is the case with Mary & Charles, but they do seem to be more concerned with what they want, rather than take the time for their boys.  I found it interesting how Austen says the grandparents do not take them as often as Mary would like.  As a grandparent myself I can say there are days my sons or daughter in law will call for help to just take the kids because they know its a sure bet they will enjoy the day at Nonnie & Papa's, and it gives them a breather.  We are blessed to live close enough so I am able to day care them after school, and yet enjoy them on the week- end at sports and yes, SOS calls. 

Anne has no children, husband or boyfriend to deal with on a day to day basis, so I think she would love playing with her nephews, and spend time with them.  When children feel someone wants to be with them and enjoy them, they are sweeter.

BarbStAubry., I have the nookcolor, and I agree, it is easier reading a small screen of words with a bit larger font, rather than a page of so many words of tiny print in a book, especially when reading Austen's words a plenty.  I am reading Persuasion from a book with very tiny print and the pages seem endless, but luckily the chapters are short.

Ciao for now~

[Winchesterlady]

Here is something which may be interesting to you ... After reading through some of these postings, I did some research on Jane Austen.  Apparently, there is something called the Austen project where current authors are scheduled to publish contemporary versions of Austen's works.  The latest one to be announced is Alexander McCall Smith.  I just found it rather intriguing. Here's the link:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10353862/Alexander-McCall-Smith-to-write-modern-reworking-of-Jane-Austens-Emma.html

[BarbStAubrey]

Awww I think we can give Mary a break - most kids love the attention when they get it from an Aunt or Grandparent and will act differently - as to Mary - look at her - she came from the big house of her father, who is having a great deal of difficulty leaving this great house partly because it defines his station in life and there was Mary after marriage not going to another big house but to this cottage. She has no job so to speak which the wife would have guiding the indoor staff of a big house and preparing herself for all the entertainment that is part of the running of a big house.

All she is left with is a poky cottage, caring for her sons who will grow up and put some dear women into the same straights as Mary finds herself. She has no status to make friends befitting who she was and who, one day after her husband's parents die, who she will be. Evidently the budget it tight since she does not have an inordinate amount of help nor an extensive wardrobe. She has no joyful activity to look forward to each day as her husband has his hunting. All she is is a baby machine that is obligated to visits with his parents in the great house which I bet she feels is rubbing her nose in it.

Sensitive or not to her situation her husband has no clue she has been demoted and lives isolated from her kind with expectations to make friends among the villagers. He knows in time he will be master of the house but by then she will be old - she is young, if she married in her teens she is probably in her mid twenties. Like Downton Abbey a century later she could have married the chauffeur the way she is living, when she thought she was marrying the son of an estate. And besides, all this loss of status and here she was prettier than her sisters - Of course she blames his parents - her husband has no job and she is reduced to cottage life because they won't step aside and move into a cottage so their married son can have the prestige due to him.

Even Lionel's parents in As Time Goes By moved to the gate keeper's cottage so that Lionel and Jean could have the main house that they were only going to use on weekends.

I think Jane Austen is showing us that women are the dressing of this system and once someone has the power that goes hand in glove with owning and running a great house they do not want to give up that prestige regardless having lost the wealth that allows them to run the house or because they want to remain in the house, although, you cannot blame the Musgroves for that since there are two younger daughters they must see suitably married.

Then to top it off Mary must feel she does not have all her husband's love - she may not be able to put her finger on it but she has to be feeling abandoned - and for what, to take care of two boys who will grow up and put another woman through what she is going through - I see her powerless, angry, feeling betrayed, isolated with her only choice to become a long suffering wife and mother living an interior life. She would even have to deny her natural instincts to be friendly and focus inward like a Teresa of Ávila. So no wonder she is hysterical. No different than many hysterical woman that had to be broken to live within the boundaries.

Heck during the 1950s when my children were young I often went hysterical after his job moved us away from family and friends without enough income to hire help and he worked 60 hour weeks because they were designing new products and a day off meant he played golf. It was the way it was and for sure neither of us had an answer. He even took care of the babies one night a week so I could join an art group that I soon gave up because it was not satisfying what I really wanted that I could not even name.  

Mary Musgrove could easily be Diana Spenser married to Charles who waits his whole life for the job, who secretly loved another and after seeing Althorp, Highgove was poky in comparison although, Charles to be king balanced that out. However, a young mom feeling isolated and abandoned by her husband goes hysterical just as Diana did.

[Frybabe]

Gosh, that took my breath away reading your post. There is more to Mary than I remember from the movie.

 I still haven't started the book, but am reading the posts.

[JoanK]

Gosh is right. You really "get" Mary, don't you Barb?

[bellamarie]

Heavens I just can't agree with you on much of what you feel about Mary. BarbStAubry, "Mary Musgrove could easily be Diana Spenser married to Charles who waits his whole life for the job, who secretly loved another and after seeing Althorp, Highgove was poky in comparison although, Charles to be king balanced that out. However, a young mom feeling isolated and abandoned by her husband goes hysterical just as Diana did."

I'm not at all aware of Diana going hysterical, she was a graceful, woman in much pain but did not allow it to stop her from being a charitable, loving and caring person. I have to say, since Princess Di was a very much admired person, not only by "the people" but by me as well, to the point of having a beautiful doll collection of her.  I could never imagine a comparison of "The People's Princess" Diana to Mary.  Princess Di even knowing Charles was having an affair with Camilla on her wedding night and throughout their years of marriage, did not ignore her two beautiful sons.  If anything in the worst of her relationship with Charles she concentrated on raising her two sons to be so much better than Prince Charles could ever imagine to be.  Prince William and Harry are two caring, loving, generous young men who have inherited Diana's qualities of caring for charities and those less fortunate.  Diana would be very proud of the men they have become.

Mary is a very selfish, gossipy, all about me person.  She whines about everything, and instead of helping with situations she complains or tries to use the situation to her advantage.  I don't see Charles any more inattentive to her as any of the other men in Austen's novel.  Mary pretended to be sick and calls for Anne to come to her aide, only to find out the night before Anne gets there Mary has attended a ball.  She has a miraculous recovery that night, and once Anne is there.  Barb I must say you are much too kind and understanding where Mary is concerned.  I'm just not seeing her as you do.  Where ever are you seeing Charles loves anyone other than Mary?  I have not gotten that impression what so ever.  I'm not sure anyone could give Mary the amount of attention she seems to need.  I don't think money or social status has anything to do with her character.  Maybe I will change my mind in the last chapters of the book, but I must say, I have read the next chapters and nothing gives me any indication Mary has any changes in her selfish behavior.  If anything it proves even more so.  If Mary feels lowly, because of cottage compared to her great house, its because she is spoiled and can not appreciate what she does have.  She may very well take after her father. who has driven them to financial ruin, having to rent out their family home due to lack of discipline and money management.

Anne is truly a kind and giving soul who is allowing Mary to take advantage of her, when she has enough on her plate as it is.  Mary could have cared less how much Anne had to take care of to prepare for the family's move, all she wanted was her there to wait on her and keep her company.  If she could be more kind and generous, maybe she could find a kinship with her in laws rather than to gossip behind their backs, and take advantage of them.  Sorry if I am being hard on Mary, but I guess we can all see people differently.  That's what makes for an interesting discussion.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

Aha! Mary's marriage has brough her much pain and suffering. Was Lady Russell's 'persuasion' meant to save Anne from a similiar fate? Of course, eight lonely years have not been easy on Anne. The bloom has gone from her life. I believe the jury is still out on whether this is a patriarchal or a matriarchal society. Who is the social arbiter among this sorry lot?

[BarbStAubrey]

OH dear Bellamarie, we see Mary through different eyes - Diana throwing herself down the stairs while pregnant to me is being hysterical - I thought in her early years she was taken advantage of and where she did not have a front window to gossip with the neighbors Diane chose a public gym - I just do not see fault with either women and see the circumstances of life having a large hand in their feelings and subsequent behavior. Since we know now from your research that Jane was writing about the women's experience although, you did say the unmarried, I just saw Mary in light of what it was like to be a 1950s homemaker before Woman's Lib.

We do know the wonders of a classic book is that we can all see something in the story that makes it ours - there is no right way to read and understand, we learned that a story becomes the readers and so we have more than one way of assessing Mary's behavior - I just see them all pawns to the social mores of the time and they are all trying to live to the expectations. Some are more successful than others but no one is perfect in this story - I just see the striving side for each.

I also see Anne as portraying the kind of women who was supposed to be seen and not heard but compassionate to all - in today's world someone would do her a favor if they slipped under her door the quote by Rebecca West, 1911, "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat".

I think she was betrayed by life and those who were supposed to have her best interests at heart that they swapped for again, the social mores of the time and so she has successfully gone inward while outwardly she is the doormat. She appears to be the character that is going through life carrying the shadows of her past allowing it to taint her future. This great disappointment in the past, she has allowed it to define her identity.

I just do not see any bad guys in this story - all I see is some very hurt people who made choices that others, we,  have made in life and all choices have an outcome as well as, all choices made with the best intention help form our character. I see them all as good people trying to live up to a standard of power and elegance they cannot meet. If they were perfect Jane Austen would have no story - to me she is writing about everyman so to speak who runs into the social expectations with limited resources they each have in order to meet those expectations.

Yep, I see a better angle as the underlying intention and life's betrayal for each of them.

[PatH]

Yes, a good book is open to many interpretations.  Barb, you point out some possible causes for Mary's dissatisfaction that hadn't occurred to me, and make me much more sympathetic to her.  But I do think she's self-centered and manipulating.  The "cottage" is no hovel, though.  It has been remodeled and enlarged and modernized for them and "with its viranda, French windows, and other prettinesses, was quite as likely to catch the traveller's eye as the more...considerable aspect and premises of the Great House...."  Charles' parents would not be in a position to turn over the Great House to him even supposing they wanted to, because in addition to Henrietta and Louisa, it's mentioned they have a number of younger children, though we haven't met them yet.

Does she feel unloved?  She might, if she knows that Charles proposed to Anne before he proposed to her.

[JoanK]

BARB: "I just do not see any bad guys in this story - all I see is some very hurt people who made choices that others, we,  have made in life and all choices have an outcome as well as, all choices made with the best intention help form our character. I see them all as good people trying to live up to a standard of power and elegance they cannot meet. If they were perfect Jane Austen would have no story - to me she is writing about everyman so to speak who runs into the social expectations with limited resources they each have in order to meet those expectations."

Very well put.

[bellamarie]

Princess Diana was a very troubled woman, who allegedly, made several attempts at suicide, I personally would not call it hysteria, if anything I would call it cries for help.  I have several of her books including the one she sat down with Andrew Morton and was very honest in expressing her hurt, depression and eating disorders.  According to her and others she was badly abused emotionally and mentally by not only Charles, but the queen herself.  She was such a young girl with dreams of love, romance, family and a lasting marriage. Unless I have ever lived a person's life I can't judge what or how I would react to being treated so cruelly.  But in defense of Diana, she did rise above it, raised her sons, and did much charitable work for land mines and Aids.  Something Austen's Mary I could never imagine doing.

PatH,.  "Does she feel unloved?  She might, if she knows that Charles proposed to Anne before he proposed to her."

I think we do find out about Charles wanting Anne first, and when she rejected him, he settled for Mary. So yes, I do believe Mary lives with knowing she was his second choice and possibly unloved, but from the impression I have gotten reading Austen's books regarding marriage, many of the young women flirt and wait to be chosen, and one says NO, the other is waiting in the parlor ready to say YES.  Why is it Austen shows us how love is not necessarily the driving force for marriage.  If anything the dowry and the social position along with the man's wealth, seems to rank more important.

I don't see any "bad guys" in the story, I just am expressing how I see Mary.

BarbStAubry, "We do know the wonders of a classic book is that we can all see something in the story that makes it ours - there is no right way to read and understand, we learned that a story becomes the readers and so we have more than one way of assessing Mary's behavior."

I could not agree with you more and you said it so eloquently. 

Ciao for now~

 

   

[JoanK]

The questions for tomorrow's section are now in the heading, below those for this section. What are your last thoughts before we go on to Lyme?

[PatH]

If anyone was confused by the new set of questions, it's because I got them totally scrambled in the process of inserting them.  They're in order now.

[JoanK]

HHORAY!

[JoanP]

I can't wait to go to Lyme!  Have started next month's discussion - Remarkable Creatures which is set in Lyme Regis. Hope you will all follow us next month.  You'll love it!

 I  had another thought about the three sisters and the role they each play.  I wonder how much Jane Austen was relating to her own role in the family.  Have we talked about her family yet?  I know she had an older sister - and a brother.  In most families, isn't the youngest usually spoiled - the  "baby. " Not only coddled by mama, but also her older sister(s)?  To me this explains Mary's behaviour - it's the role she's always played. She knows no other way but to call on her sister to help.

And the oldest - almost like a third parent to the younger ones - especially in this case when the the mama has died.  Elizabeth has had to step into the role of her father's partner,...while Anne is expected to pick up the slack when her older sister is too busy with more important business at her father's side.  
Anne seems to have resigned herself to this role - accepts it as the one she must play, serving both sisters - and Mary's children too.  

 I still don't know how I feel about her broken engagement.  She was so young.  She followed her father's wishes, and Lady Russell's advice.  Does anyone here think she ought to have followed her heart and married the sailor?  
She was never interested in anyone else after that.  Is this Jane Austen's story too?  Was there a Captain Wentworth in her life?

[BarbStAubrey]

I like the explanation for the three sisters - another layer of understanding - seems to me we read how Jane Austen had a love that I thought he died but whatever she never married.

I'm thinking this may be the time in history when being married for love was beginning to be a possibility because that appears to be the dichotomy between Anne and Captain Wentworth - they loved but the thousands of year old system for marriage was to marry wealth or power or increase alliances between families.

The troubadours may have been singing about love since the eleventh century but courtly love was always about a man pining for and winning the affections of a married women. My guess is as women began to have legal rights and were no longer the property of the husband which legally started to change in the early nineteenth century then there was a place for a marriage based on love. 

[PatH]

Jane Austen didn't have a Captain Wentworth, but at twenty she did have a fairly serious flirtation with Tom Lefroy, a visiting relative of a neighbor.  They spent a few weeks or months dancing together a lot at local balls, and enjoying each other's company.  Nothing could come of it; neither had any money, and Tom was under the patronage of a relative who was furthering his legal career.  Tom was whisked away by his family, and they never saw each other again.  He eventually became Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, and in his old age admitted having been fond of Jane.

Much later, the heir to an estate proposed to her at a ball, and she accepted.  Next morning, horrified at what she had done, she broke the engagement.  He was probably equally horrified, and readily released her.  He was rich, but personally stodgy and boring, and Jane doesn't seem to have regretted her decision.

[PatH]

Someone asked about Jane Austen's siblings:


Jane Austen was the seventh of eight children: six brothers and one sister.  Two of her brothers were in the navy, so she had accurate knowledge of naval life and manners.  Here’s a list.

1) James, 1765-1819.  Clergyman, also wrote (mostly poetry) and was considered the better writer by some of the family. (humph)

2) George, 1766-1838.  “Mentally abnormal” in some unspecified way, and subject to fits.  Was cared for all his life by a local family.

3) Edward Austen Knight, 1768-1852.  Was adopted by wealthy cousins, took their name and later inherited their estate.

4) Henry, 1771-1850.  Janes favorite brother, he helped her get her books published.  Married his cousin, Eliza de Feullide, who’s first husband had been guillotined in the French Revolution.  A banker, who later joined the clergy (after his bank failed).

5) Cassandra, 1773-1845.  Jane’s beloved older sister.

6) Francis, 1774-1865.  In the Navy, ending up as Admiral of the Fleet.

7) Jane, 1775-1817.

8 ) Charles, 1779-1852.  Also in the navy, ending up as a rear admiral.

[bellamarie]

Well now all the information provided, sure does cast a light on things.  I did feel JA was either Elizabeth or Anne after finding out she had never married.  Now PatH., has supplied us with Jane having, " a fairly serious flirtation with Tom Lefroy," and  this,  "Much later, the heir to an estate proposed to her at a ball, and she accepted.  Next morning, horrified at what she had done, she broke the engagement."

Is it coincidental that Anne turned down Charles, and than we have Mr. Wentworth not being wealthy or successful enough for Lady Russell to approve of Anne and Mr. Wentworth at the time they were in love with each other?

Makes me wonder if JA knew she was in her dying days as she wrote this last novel, and wanted to reveal herself in it as Anne, or Elizabeth, or both for that matter.

JoanP.,  You are so right about the roles siblings play in the order of their birth.  I have six siblings and I am second to the youngest.  I am sandwiched in between the baby of the family, and the only boy of the family.  I saw myself as the invisible one.  "The baby of the family" is most definitely the spoiled one, along with the ONLY boy.  My oldest sister was care taker of the "little ones", and a mother figure, always telling us what to do, being incredibly bossy.  I remember once my brother put lipstick on her huge stuffed bear's paws her boyfriend gave to her, and when she saw it and no one would confess as to who did it, she stood me, my youngest sister and brother in the corner and never let us out for nearly an hour.  Once when my Mom and Step Dad took most of the siblings out of town to visit family and left me in the care of my oldest sister, she took it upon herself to cut and perm my hair.  I looked liked I put my finger in a light switch!  I was mortified to go to school looking like that.  Growing up with my siblings was like the story of "Little Women" with my brother as my best friend, like Lauri was to Jo.  Oh what memories were triggered reading your post Joan.  lol

I am excited to be going on to Lyme!  Now that Mr. Wentworth is on the scene, it's got to get really interesting.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

Reading Jane Austen for the first time is a lot of fun. And what a challenge. What a clever writer. What a genius.

You were all there, yesterday, at the talk on Jane Austen by professor John Greenwood. He kept us all spellbound for an hour and a half. Persuasion, I understood him to say, is the interior monologue we do when we consider all the options of a problematical situation. Jane Austen appeared at a time when the rational was giving way to the romantic. And much, much more.

There were about sixty of us listening to his lecture and his expressive readings from Sense and Sensibility. I seemed to recognize all of you among the listeners. Even a few of Austen's characters. I'm sure that was Elizabeth, Anne and Mary sitting together in the second row. Constantly whispering to each other.

JoanP says: 'I still don't know how I feel about her broken engagement.'

Exactly. I can hear Austen thinking: Let's explore this. And started on her novel. Anne seems to have regretted it almost immediately. Within a year or so she rejects Charles Musgrove's proposal of marriage. By then Lady Russell also has second thoughts as she watches Anne losing her youthful bloom.

I can't believe how mercenary they all are. And their preoccupation with social standing. Have things really changed. Marrying for love is the diciest thing in the world. We can hardly trust ourselves in that state.

[JoanK]

Bellemarie: "I saw myself as the invisible one."

That's definitely what Anne is in the Eliot family. Does she ring true to your experience? I can imagine Jane Austen as seeing herself that way, and she was the one in the end supporting some of the family with her writing, as Anne is supporting hers with her common sense and efficiency.

However, unlike Anne, Jane seemed very fond and close to her sister, and one of her brothers.

JONATHAN: what a fun experience! Do give us more tidbits.

"Persuasion, I understood him to say, is the interior monologue we do when we consider all the options of a problematical situation. "

That's fascinating! So, if I understand (and I'm not sure I do), Austen is working over all the plusses and minuses of allowing oneself to be persuaded by others? Let's continue to keep an eye on this.

[JoanK]

A fun way to learn more about Austen's life is by reading a series of detective stories by Stephanie Barron, in which Jane Austen narrates the stories, and solves mysteries. Of course, the mysteries are fictional, as is her sidekick, a dashing young man. But much of what happens is based on her letters and life.

The titles are listed here, and are widely available in libraries and bookstores.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/b/stephanie-barron/

[PatH]

The mysteries should be read in order, as some later ones say too much about what happened in the earlier ones.

[JoanP]

Interesting, Pat - JA 's brother Francis was a Navy man...an Admiral too. Jane understood then first-hand the need for finding suitable housing at short notice.  The relationship between Admiral Croft and his demonstrative, loving wife just rubs it in as Anne hears of their love at first sight and short engagement.  What is Jane telling us about short engagements here? Does she believe that Anne made a mistake 8 years ago?

Do you think Anne understood that Mrs. Croft was Captain Wentworth's sister as she readied the house for the Crofts - and later the Captain himself?  I found myself wondering why he is hanging around Uppercross, a man like him.  Was it because he's looking for a wife while on leave?  Neither Henrietta nor Louisa seem a good match for him, do they? Do you think he  has learned that Anne is visiting Mary there? Is that really why he keeps returning? 

[PatH]

JoanP--JA is the perfect solution for me as to what to call our author.  I'm not comfortable either with what she would have been called then, or with "Austen", which would be standard usage now, but JA feels good.  People used initials a lot then.

Yes, Anne knew exactly who Mrs. Croft was when Kellynch Hall was rented to the Crofts.  When Mr. Shepherd first mentions the admiral as a possible tenant, she knows his rank and where he has been stationed, and who Shepherd is referring to when he mentions Mrs. Croft's brother the clergyman (Captain W's older brother).  After Mr. Shepherd leaves, she thinks "A few months more, and he(Captain Wentworth), perhaps, may be walking here.  Wentworth is definitely looking for a wife, as he says in the section we are just starting, but I think he is also just happy to enjoy the lively, flirty social atmosphere at Uppercross.  And I agree he deserves better than Henrietta or Louisa.

[PatH]

JA's sailor brothers Francis and Charles became admirals eventually, but at the time she wrote this book, they were closer to the place Wentworth is now, just a little bit farther on, so she definitely understood his problems.

The British navy was in a changing state at this time, and was suffering a kind of public relations crisis.  For a long time they had been the magnificent defenders of the British Isles, a big source of public pride, and thought of as even more important than the military.  But now they had done too good a job.  From the start of the Napoleonic wars, they had done such a magnificent job that they suffered for it.  Through a combination of blockades and battles, they had managed to keep the French navy from being much of a threat.  Their reward was that, as the war shifted to more land operations, the navy became less popular with the public and the army more so.  Now, with the start of peace, large numbers of sailors are re-entering civilian life.   What will people think of them?How will they be treated?  How will they fare, trying to fit into life on shore?

JA is aware of this, and puts in her plugs for the value of naval men, though by the time the book was finished the problem must have been more or less solved.

I have to put in a patriotic note here.  The War of 1812 was sort of a little side issue to the Napoleonic wars, but we totally creamed the British in the few naval battles involved.  Sometime when you have half an hour to spare you can get me started on Old Ironsides, USS Constitution.  But it'll take a while, because I dearly love that ship, which is still commissioned; I've been on her, and she's magnificent.

[Jonathan]

I have the time, Pat. Post away. I would love to hear about those naval battles long ago, especially those involving the USS Constitution. And that reminds me of the book on my shelf I've been meaning to read: Ian W. Tolls, Six Frigates, Which, I see, has a column of references to the Big C in the index. British naval power was so great for so long. It surprises me now to read that officers looked on their careers as an opportunity to enrich themselves with their 'prizes'. With peace around these sailors looked for other prizes, then it's off for more booty on the high seas.

'He is also just happy to enjoy the lively, flirty social atmosphere at Uppercross.  And I agree he deserves better than Henrietta or Louisa.'

He would have to be heartless to be enjoying himself.

[JoanK]

"He would have to be heartless to be enjoying himself."

I think he was pretty clueless as to how Anne felt. certainly before they met, and probably afterwards as well.

[JoanP]

Thanks for the perspective on how the public viewed the navy men returning to civilian life at this time, Pat - I have the impression that for Captain Wentworth, the situation is temporary...that he intends to be off to the sea as soon as the opportunity arises.  Is that right?  What would he do with himself if he did return to civilian life?  How do you picture him walking on the beach at Lyme Regis?  I can't picture him in anything but his uniform.  In fact, I don't see him as a fully developed character - just a uniform - allowing himself to be admired by all those sweet young things.  

No, I don't think he noticed Anne at first either...at least he didn't appear to.  But how can he have forgotten her? It's only been 8 years since she broke their engagement.  Is JA purposely hiding his feelings until another time?  Or is he so disciplined that he has successfully shut out that painful time in his life?

Does anyone remember why Henretta  suddenly lost interest in the Captain and turned her attention back to Charles Hayter?  I thought she and Louisa were vying for the Captain's attention.  What persuaded her to leave him to Louisa?

[PatH]

Captain Wentworth surely means to back to sea--if he can.  But since peace has finally come, he might not get the chance for a while, as the active navy will be much reduced.  No matter what, if he lives long enough, he will be an admiral.  He has already gotten the rank of Post Captain.  From that point on, promotions occur in order of seniority, defined as the date you got this rank.  I, too, think of him in uniform.

He hasn't forgotten Anne.  He took care to let people know he knew her, to avoid being introduced.  He is still angry at her, so thinks her more faded than she is.  But I agree that he has no idea how she feels about him.