Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Persuasion by Jane Austen

“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.' 'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.” ― Jane Austen, Persuasion Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.      Discussion schedule:        Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6        Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12        Oct 13-18--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)        Oct 19-?--Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)

Some things to think about: Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)

1. In this section, our characters are all scattered and on the move: Lyme, Uppercross, Kellynch, Bath. Why do you think Austen does this? What does this do dramatically to the tone of the book?

2. "Everybody has their taste in noises as well as in other matters". Here,  Austen contrasts the noise and bustle of a busy family with the noise and bustle of a busy town. Which do you think Austen preferred? Which do you?

3. At one point, Anne is the last one left at Uppercross, as everyone else has left. Have you ever felt that way? Do you think Austen did in her personal life?

4. Sir Walter says "The worst of Bath was the number of plain women." What are the ways Austen shows Sir Walter to be ridiculous? In what ways does she contrast him to Admiral Croft? Which one is funnier?

5. "The evil of marriage [between Sir Walter and Mrs. Clay] would be much diminished if Elizabeth were also to marry." Why? Why the concern over Mrs. Clay?

6. Why do you think William Eliot renewed his acquaintance with Sir Walter?

7. What do you think of the news in Chapter 18? (Please don't discuss until everyone has read it.)


Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)

1. How does Austen maintain suspense in this last section? Did you feel it as you read? What did you feel?

2. Anne doesn't take action herself, but waits for others.  Why?

3. When Wentworth talks to Anne, she feels "agitation, pain, pleasure, a something between delight and misery." Have you ever felt like that? Under what circumstances?

4. Wentworth says "Bentwick is something more [than amiable, sweet-tempered and understanding]. He is a clever man, a reading man." But Admiral Croft says "His reading has done him no harm, for he has fought as well as read."Are we "something more" because we are reading people? Does it do us harm?

5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once?  Is this realistic?

6. [Women] "certainly do not forget you [men] as easily as you forget us. It is, perhaps, our fate rather than our merit." Do you agree?

7. In none of Austen's books does she write dialog declaring love. Why do you think this is? What did you think of the device Austen uses instead?

8. Is Anne too good to be true?
 

DLs:   PatH & JoanK  

JoanK.,  Now isn't that an interesting analogy, building blocks.  It automatically brought the image of the picture of the houses in Bath to my mind.  All blocks built in a perfect crescent.  Yet, what a menagerie, they appear to be.  

I could not understand why Charles was telling Anne how Mr. Benwick was so smitten with her, yet Mary played it off as though he never even seemed the least bit interested in Anne.  What was Charles purpose of telling Anne how much Mr. Benwick liked her?  Then we learn from Admiral Croft, while walking with Anne, that Louisa Musgrove is to marry Mr. Benwick.  Mary sure has a jealousy for any man who dares to give any sign of attention to Anne.  

JoanP., " I couldn't help but notice that we are following Anne from one of these places to the next.  There's only one other character following her...is it too much of a coincidence that Captain Wentworth's turns up wherever Anne is?"

Actually, if you have noticed, Mr. Wentworth has for some reason dropped out of the picture.....While Admiral Croft and Anne are walking in Bath he tells Anne,

pg. 674 "Well, this Louisa, we all thought, you know, was to marry Frederick.  He was courting her week after week.  The only wonder was, what they could be waiting for, till the business at Lyme came; then, indeed, it was clear enough that they must wait til her brain was set to right.  But even then there was something odd in their way of going on.  Instead of staying at Lyme, he went off to Plymouth, and then he went off to see Edward.  When we came back from Minehead he was gone down to Edward's, and there he has been ever since.  We have seen nothing of him since November.  Even Sophy could not understand it.  But now, the matter has taken the strangest turn of all; for this young lady, this same Miss Musgrove, instead of being to marry Frederick, is to marry James Benwick."

And now, the Admiral shows his matchmaking skills in this paragraph:  

"Poor Frederick!"  said he, at last.  "Now he must begin all over again with somebody else.  I think we must get him to Bath.  Sophy must write, and beg him to come to Bath.  Here are pretty girls enough, I am sure.  It would be of no use to go to Uppercross again, for that other Miss Musgrove, I find, is bespoken by her cousin, the young parson.  Do not you think, Miss Elliot, we had better try to get him to Bath?'

I laughed so much, just imagining the Admiral smirking, as he says this to Anne.    I suspect, he and Sophy from the very start, have been hoping, to get Anne and Frederick together.

So, let's see if Mrs. Croft is successful in "begging" Frederick to come to Bath. I'm supposing it won't take much to convince him to come, knowing Anne is there.

Talk about name dropping, how many people did Admiral Croft stop to say hello to, while walking with Anne?  It's the who's who, in these chapters.  

Barb, I have seen the movie, Red October, but never read the book.  I don't remember much of the movie.

JoanK., Yes, we love our little grandchildren with all our hearts, but they can wear us out.  How on earth did Mary take the Harvells' children and keep them such a long time, when she barely could manage her own two sons?  Now, that sure had me stumped!  But then I think it said they spent much time, with the Musgroves.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

I like all your impressions. 'All things are up in the air.' 'It's all over the map.' 'A progression of lifestyles and manners.'

Isn't the book all about finding a new home for Anne? She admits that she feels most comfortable at Lyme. The people, the place.  Too much of a white glare in Bath. (Things were still new. Soot and the weather had not turned it gray yet.) Kellynch was so claustraphobic. Admiral Croft's feeling was that one couldn't get away from oneself.

I can see where Tom Clancy might have picked up some writing ideas in Austen's style. There are complexities and alternatives everywhere, whether it's marital styles or child raising, with everyone knowing how it's done best.

Will we ever find out what really brought Louisa and Captain Benwick together. Mary went for long walks along the beach with him and found him boring. Letting Louisa fall was certainly a heartless way of dropping her. Can Captain Wentworth be trusted. A helluva way of making love, as the Admiral put it.

Do you find all this boring? Try to determine where you would fit in, in this strange melange or milieu of English society. Are there any good biographies of Jane Austen out there. I'm interested in the mind behind this addictive writing.

[Jonathan]

Delightful post, Bella. It left me chuckling. Exactly. Admiral Croft shows no hesitation in talking to anyone.

What did you think of the all the fault-finding among themselves about child-rearing? With nobody getting it right. And everything that happens, or is said, makes an impression on Anne. I hope she finds her own mind in all this.

[bellamarie]

PatH., You have done a great job in keeping up with all the places, homes, families and ways of life.  And yes, these people must have family and friends around them at all times.  Phew...I am such a person who needs my space and quiet time after a day of children in my day care.  I could not imagine being around so many people ALL the time.  At one point when more new characters were being introduced so fast in these last chapters, I thought I might go mad!  It was like the 4th of July, firecrackers were popping up one after another.  That is when I was wondering if our dear JA was trying to fit in as many of her friends and family into this last novel, and there was an urgency to do it before she came to the end of the story.  PatH., you would make a perfect hostess, being able to know and keep up with so many people.  I also love how you have the knowledge, and point out the fashion, craze and styles of the 1800's.  I totally missed the curricle, Charles is buzzing about in.

Anne is very adaptable, patient, kind and caring.  She is willing to help others, leaving her life behind, or on hold for the sake of others.  Nothing seems to rattle her, except when she has to be in the presence of dear Mr. Wentworth.

Jonathon, I just was shaking my head with all the faultfinding among themselves about child-rearing. I taught in a private school, K-8, still teaching CCD (religion classes), own my in home daycare, raised three children and have six grand children, and I am not sure there is anyone other than Anne I would trust any children with. 

I feel,  Anne has found a mind of her own, especially after realizing listening to Mrs. Russell's objections to her marrying Frederick eight years ago may have been a mistake, and now Mrs. Russell is approving of Mr. Elliot, who Anne in her own mind, is questioning his character with good reason. Can't wait to see how Mrs. Russell will react, if and when Anne does speak her own mind. 

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Finally finished the last of this reading section last night - I must say I dragged my feet because I think the first page or so of this Part II was not an easy read and difficult to understand so I just read through it till I got to where it was clear. I was going to go back and see if I could sort it out and then was so annoyed decided not to.

I did enjoy the conversation between Mr. Elliot and Anne that included her interior dialogue about making contacts to enrich yourself - could not help but realize it is that way still. Anyone in business must and is delighted when they make contact with someone who can easily afford their product or services and then works to allow others to know about that relationship hoping to profit from more contacts. It is the same with facebook and twitter - the higher up the foodchain the prestige adds to your life if only to have news to share with those on your economic and social level.

We may be outraged at those who are really high in the foodchain and have very definite ideas how they should spend their money and time but like when in High School enjoying the nod of recognition from the star football player we use those connections that later we call the Good OL'Boy  way of life to get jobs and even to gain admission to various Universities for our kids - the saying still seems to hold - it is not what you know but who you know and we still have folks who feel this is an unsavory aspect of human nature.

Well I can see it and just never thought - when you have a mortgage to pay or a family to feed or a retirement to fund you do not want to give your work away for free - the many who want but do not have the where with all or credit to get what they want are easy pickings and a lot of time and energy to help them is wasted since there is no sale and most do not change their lifestyle to accommodate a future sale. And so economics and your own financial need says to make contact with those who can pay or obtain credit and see if you can do a good enough job that you can ask them to recommend more of their friends - I see this as what Anne did not understand and Mr. Elliot was trying to point out to her. But then, Anne is not a bread earner here except to depend on others to provide her with a home.

Artists are known not to be business wise and so I can see how Jane Austen would focus on her craft as the way to advance her earning power however, from what we read she did not sell all her stories while she was alive - Did she really see herself as the breadwinner for herself and her sister - was this a hobby or was there no way for a woman of her class to earn money - maybe as a teacher -

I wonder if the character Mrs. Russell in real life would have been paid for her care of the Elliot girls over the years - all to say, I have friends today that hold themselves aloft from making, what they believe is false friendships because of someone's greater status or wealth and yet, I notice when they want something done they are pleased they know personally the mayor, or a member of the city council, or the president of the neighborhood association, or the owner of a small business who could hire one of their grandchildren - what is it that we hold our nose at playing the power game and yet, we play the game when we need influence.

[PatH]

I can see how Jane Austen would focus on her craft as the way to advance her earning power however, from what we read she did not sell all her stories while she was alive - Did she really see herself as the breadwinner for herself and her sister - was this a hobby or was there no way for a woman of her class to earn money - maybe as a teacher -

There were almost no ways considered proper for a woman of JAs class to pull in money.  She was lucky to have a salable skill.  She wrote because it was in her bones; she started when she was just a child and the family was well off.  But she marketed them to help with family expenses.

I don't know what else she could have done.  Some women became governesses, but I think mostly they started when they were younger, and that would have meant living away from the family, where she was needed to help run the household.

[Jonathan]

I'm finding this a supremely sophisticated piece of writing. If she were writing today, what kind of novel would she be writing? That question comes to mind after reading your post, Barb. There were other women writing, but Jane Austen certainly stands out, in showing that women were finding a voice. How far we have come. Much of the best wrting today is being done by women, whether it's literary, news gathering, commentary, or scholarly stuff.

 Several weeks ago a college instructor here in Toronto, made himself the talk of the town, when he was caught saying he had no use for female writing and would never teach it. And he deplored the passing of such macho stuff as Hemingway might write. Nothing has been heard from him since Alice Monroe won the Nobel Prize.

Austen's Bath scene is incomparable. From the invalid, Mrs Smith, getting the news from her nurse, in Chapter 17, and telling Anne about it:

'Call it gossip if you will; but when nurse Rooke has half an hour's leisure to bestow on me, she is sure to have something to relate that is entertaining and profitable, something that makes one know one's species better. One likes to hear what is going on, to be au fait as to the newest modes of being trifling and silly. To me, who lives so much alone, her conversation I assure you is a treat.'

The same could be said for the book. It's a treat.

'I am no match-maker, as you well know,' said Lady Russell.

Ha!!! In the next breath she sees Anne as Lady Elliot, but the thought discomfits Anne. Is Lady Russell really out to ruin Anne's life?

[JoanK]

BARB: " I have friends today that hold themselves aloft from making, what they believe is false friendships because of someone's greater status or wealth and yet, I notice when they want something done they are pleased they know personally the mayor, or a member of the city council..."

Good point!

JONATHAN: " Is Lady Russell really out to ruin Anne's life?" No, but we begin to see that her advice is not as good as she (and previously Anne) thought it was.

 All of the advice she gives throughout the book is very practical, based on getting as much financial security as possible for her friends. She and Sir Walter are like polar opposites of values: the one seeing only appearance and status, the other only the practicalities of supporting oneself. It's amazing that Anne, growing up with those two advisors, can see what they see, but also what they don't.

Austen, herself, it seems to me, is a mix of Anne and Lady Russell. She sees the things of the heart and mind as supremely important, yet, having struggled with poverty all her life, money is never very far away from her thoughts. Her philosophy seems to be "Be a good person, do what's right, and the money will come."

I wish that were true!

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, I don't think Lady Russell "wants" to ruin Anne's life.  I think Lady Russell sees the security of settling Anne into Kellynch.  She wants the family to remain in Kellynch, and marrying Anne off to Mr. Elliot was the one way Mrs. Russell could make that happen.

I have to say I am hoping the last chapters reveal more about who, what, when, where, how and why all these characters were introduced and quickly paired up at the last second with the most unlikely, and some insight into more of the main characters.  

For some reason at this point I am baffled and melancholy with where this story is at.  Maybe I have missed something.  Barb, your post was very deep, and I never had the introspective to even see as much as you pointed out.  I guess all these people, being about the who's who, just did not impress me whatsoever.  I have always expected to attach myself to a character/characters and enjoy the place they are, and wait and watch for the purpose and progression of the story.  I just have not gotten that from any of the characters, because I feel JA  introduced way too many characters into the novel, for too short a time.  Even though Anne, for me, has been the main character, I have not been able to even attach myself to her, because she has not stayed in one place long enough for me to really get to feel I know her.  All these characters have been like butterflies to me, flitting and fluttering, around but just when you want to really appreciate and see them, off they go, just like a butterfly. Never really getting to soak up enough time with one,  before its gone.  I'm just feeling a bit cheated.

Barb, I felt exactly like you with the first pages of these assigned chapters. I struggled to keep going, and if I were honest, I can say I flipped a few pages, because of boredom and uninterested.  I did actually think about going back to see what I missed and decided not to.  If it weren't for the Admiral and Anne's walk and conversation I would have felt there just was nothing here.  I hope the last three chapters don't disappoint me, as much as these have.  After reading Pride and Prejudice, before beginning Persuasion, I may have been expecting so much more, because I truly loved Pride and Prejudice.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Cheer up, Bellamarie, the bad stretch is over.  We've met all the players now, and, with the dramatic news in Chapter 18, things are going to heat up a bit.

We won't see much more of Lady Dalrymple and Miss Carteret.  I think their main purpose was to show up the attitudes of Sir Walter and Elizabeth.  Sir W and E don't expect any monetary advantage from the acquaintance, they want to be more impressive in their social circles by hobnobbing with nobility.  This is meant to contrast with Anne's idea of friendship as a meaningful exchange of ideas, learning from others, improving oneself, and getting encouragement with one's problems.

When I first read Persuasion, I had an awful time keeping Henrietta and Louisa straight.  That's pretty crucial.  Some of the first part doesn't make sense if you mix them up, but I really had to work at it.

[PatH]

I think we can assume everyone has read Chapter 18 (or 2, 6) by now.  What do you think of this development?  Is it realistic? What went on here?

[Jonathan]

'baffled and melancholy, bored, not interested...why all these characters... introduced and quickly paired up at the last second'

A lot of good criticisms, Bella. And I can't help feeling that the author was of the same mind when she brought in Mrs Smith and the nurse with all the gossip. Is that what my book is turning into, she must have asked herself. And immediately Anne becomes the author's mouthpiece, with her impatience with all the gossip. The gossip could be worth listening to if one could catch 'the varieties of human nature in instances of ardent, disinterested, self-denying attachment, of heroism, fortitude, patience, resignation - of all the conflicts and all the sacrifices that ennoble us most.' (p168)

Doesn't that leave you with a feeling that Jane Austen was trying to break out of a shell midway through her book?

All this frantic activity to set out on the matrimonial seas. And then I see the admiral shaking his head at the unseaworthy boat in the picture in the window.

I've read of one critic's answer to the question of seeing Jane Austen in Anne. Could Anne have written Pride and Predjudice?

Persuasion turned out to be her swan song. 

[Jonathan]

'Realistic' is out of the question, Pat.

[bellamarie]

Yes, PatH., I dare say I have finished chapter 18, and find Mary's letter to be first off, very complaining, and feeling she has been left all to herself.  

pg. 670 "I have not had a creature call on me since the second week of January, except Charles Hayter, who has been calling much oftener than was welcome."    Then she goes on to say, "I am glad you find Mr. Elliot so agreeable, and wish I could be acquainted with him too; but I have my usual luck: I am always out of the way when anything desirable is going on; always the last of my family to be noticed.  What an immense time Mrs. Clay has been staying with Elizabeth!  Does she never mean to go away?  But, Perhaps, if she were to leave the room vacant, we might not be invited.  Let me know what you think of this.  I do not expect my children to be asked, you know, I can leave them at the Great House very well, for a month or six weeks."

I found this a bit ironic, for Mary to say she is willing to leave her children for such a long time, when she had earlier criticized the Harvilles for leaving their children so long.  And of course, she had to make Anne feel more sorry for her, by saying she does not feel well,  "I am sorry to say that I am very far from well; and Jenimna has just told me that the butcher says there is a bad sore-throat very much about.  I dare say I shall catch it; and my sore-throats, you know, are always worse than anybody's"

This family is so self indulging, Elizabeth and Sir Walter could care less how Mary, Charles and the children are doing.  All they care about is that the Crofts are in Bath, and they do not want to be put out, or embarrassed by them.

"I suspect," said Sir Walter, cooly, "that Admiral Croft will be best known in Bath as the renter of Kellynch Hall.  Elizabeth, may we venture to present him and his wife in Laura Place?"  "Oh no! I think not.  Situated as we are with Lady Dalrymple, cousins, we ought to be very careful not to embarrass her with acquaintances she might not approve.  If we were not related it would not signify; but as cousins, she would feel scrupulous as to any proposal of ours.  We had better leave the Crofts to find their own level.  There are some odd-looking men walking about here, who, I am told, are sailors.  The Crofts will associate with them.  This was Sir Walter and Elizabeth's share of interest in the letter.."

What was even more funny is this:  "The Crofts new quite as many people in Bath as they wished for, and considered their intercourse with the Elliots as a mere matter of form, and not in the least likely to afford them any pleasure."

So it's not only, the who knows who, in Bath, but it's, who is snubbing who?

PatH., "This is meant to contrast with Anne's idea of friendship as a meaningful exchange of ideas, learning from others, improving oneself, and getting encouragement with one's problems."

Ughhhh.....personally, I would have a very difficult time in spending any amount of time with any of them.  Run, Anne, run!!!!  Do you suppose Mr. Wentworth became bored with being around these type of people, and that is why he left?  He can clearly see, Anne is so drastically different.

Jonathan,  We were writing at the same time.  You ask, "Could Anne have written Pride and Predjudice?"

NO!, emphatically, NO!  Pride and Prejudice was a light, fun, easy to read story.  I absolutely could not see Anne writing it, because she is too complacent.  Anne is sitting back letting life pass her by.  She may have a mind of her own, but I am waiting for her to have a voice of her own and speak up to all this nonsense.  I have never been a big fan of snobbery or gossip.  Not a fan of always having and needing someone around me at all times, waking up to people at my breakfast table and turning in after a ball or party.  I love being with people, but I must say I get bored easily with those who are fake and frivolous.  I actually like Admiral Croft.  He is a no nonsense kind of guy.  He calls it like it is. 

You mention Anne becomes the author's mouthpiece, and is finally fed up with all the gossip.  Hmmmm....have you read ahead, because I am still waiting.  lololol         

Ciao for now~



 

[Jonathan]

Admiral Croft to Anne, on their walk: 'Do you not think, Miss Eliot, we had better try to get Captain Wentworth to Bath?'

And Anne: 'She had some feelings which she was ashamed to investigate. They were too much like joy, senseless joy.' from Chapter 18

[bellamarie]

Jonathan,  "All this frantic activity to set out on the matrimonial seas. And then I see the admiral shaking his head at the unseaworthy boat in the picture in the window."

Did I miss this somewhere in chapter 18?  tsk tsk.....lolol

[JoanK]

This is supposed to be our last day on this section, but let's give it one more day. We haven't heard from everyone yet, and some of you may need a break. So we'll start discussing the end of the book (Chapter 19 on) on the 19th (very appropriate!)

Persuasion is definitely not as funny and optimistic as A's other books -- remember, she was sick when she wrote it (dying as it turned out, although I don't know if she knew that). But for those of us who love it, it definitely has something. I'm sorry some of you are struggling with it, or don't like it.

I especially love the part coming up (the last four chapters). What will Austen do with our lovers now? Will they stumble their way toward each other? Or be ships that pass in the night? Stay tuned!

[bellamarie]

Oh JoanK, please forgive me if I have given the impression I don't like the book.  I truly have enjoyed it, these last chapters were just a bit of a struggle for me.  I am expecting the last chapters will be well worth the wait.  I remember when I read JA's Sense and Sensibility a  couple of years ago.  It was the first time ever reading JA.  Now, that book I would not necessarily recommend as a "first read", only because it was very difficult for me to get the style, places and era down.  But, in all that I have read now, Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility and now Persuasion, I would feel greatly disappointed, if I went my lifetime without knowing JA's wonderful writings.  As an author myself, I can be very critical and impatient, but it does not mean to reflect, a dislike for the book. 

I can barely wait to see how these next chapters end.  The 19th chapter, on the 19th, is rather poetic!

JoanK., " What will Austen do with our lovers now? Will they stumble their way toward each other? Or be ships that pass in the night?"

Well, now you really have piqued my interest! 

Ciao for now~   

 

[PatH]

Bellamarie, as an author yourself you probably notice devices JA uses to achieve her effects that the rest of us don't.  Is there anything you care to comment on?

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear - just read your posts and I had so disliked what Jane Austen wrote in chapter 17 I could hardly take any comment seriously -

First of all it hit me the quote by Elenore Roosevelt was right on while reading this and then I realized the story was more sinister.  - first the quote...

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Little of what passed for conversation included comments that could or would be said in front of those they were downplaying - this chapter made me uncomfortable and reminded me of the back fence or coffee klatch gossiping popular among those who live by judging, criticizing, name calling, trivializing others lifestyles saying, The trouble with this one or that one is or They are stuck up or they minimize and only see the negative in others and without being present they fantasize what others see and do. Chilling!

Also, Chapter 17 was like one huge market with people the commodity - they were all being portrayed as using each other and justifying their behavior without ever seeing and speaking about how they added to each other and society in general. Mrs. Smith is using Mrs. Wallis and Mr. Elliot is being judged like a piece of meat. We hear of Lady Russell's "opinions" as of she were the one choosing and has the right to judge the merits of people as if they are commodities in the hardware store.  All that to show the compassion of Anne??!!?? Sheesh...

I am thinking we are hearing more of Jane Austen, who is portraying her wealthy characters as inadequate and placing this same inadequacy on the judging and using nature of the poor that I cannot help but wonder if Jane Austen is writing her own hostile thoughts and behind the back gossip without allowing her readers to see more than black and white behavior. Even Shakespeare gave most of his villeins small redeeming qualities if nothing else to make them a worthy adversary.

Well we do learn in Chapter 17 Anne finally, in thought saying what we had been suspecting, she still has strong feelings for Captain Wentworth that she is at last acknowledging aloud within her head. If the concept is true that we act on our thoughts than it appears we are going to see Anne become more than a '...little girl, Who had a little curl, Right in the middle of her forehead.'.

Jane Austen writes her sea faring men with respect and as likeable characters which, after reading chapter 18 is suggesting in her life she admired her brothers and their fellow navel personal where as, in chapter 17 she tried to justify bad behavior for the characters with less, while vilifying those with more.

Ha just hit, this is as if she is writing an exposé of the capitalistic system with people and their behavior as the currency.

[bellamarie]

PatH., I will admit to being a novice author, with a few writings published in print, which are poetry rather than novel.  Although, I have a children's book in the works.  Being a newbie to JA, I can say the devices I see her use to achieve her effects are: satire, irony, drama, realism, individualism, society, sadness, comedy, emotion and fairy tale elements.

I am certain that all JA's fans/readers are aware of these devices.  They pull you into the story, wanting more, even in the more difficult pages, when she uses more dialogue versus description.  She does not give many physical descriptions of her characters or places, which leaves you to know them more of their mind, rather their physical appearances.  So the pictures in the links provided by our members are most appreciated, because it gives the readers the true essence of the places, times and styles.  That's what makes SeniorLearn a most unique, and cherished book club.

Me, being a hopeless romantic, I am a sucker for the fairy tale element. In every fairy tale you have the girl/guy meet, part, and come back together.  In the process of this happening, you see a growth in the characters, many times, one seeing the other in a different light, as in Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth was willing to re read Mr. Darcy's letter, and was willing to give him a second look. I saw a growth in Elizabeth, as well as Mr. Darcy, because he had to be willing to admit his character flaws too.  I sense, Anne has been giving Mr. Wentworth a second look, through the eyes of seeing others who are not at all suited for her, as I sense Mr. Wentworth has quietly observed Anne, amongst her many family and friends.  But......all fairy tales do not necessarily have the happily ever after, so as JoanK., stated, "Will they stumble their way toward each other? Or be ships that pass in the night?"

I can say I am more enriched in the knowledge of society, style and manners in the era of JA's writings.  I will cherish her books I have, and recommend them to my grand daughters.  You can not find these treasures today, to give to young ladies entering their dating years.  Imagine Fifty Shades of Grey, compared to, Pride and Prejudice, as guides to our young girls for relationships.  In my opinion, it's garbage versus gallantry.

Ciao for now~

P.S.  Barb, we were writing at the same time.  LOVE your post!!! As for taking our posts seriously, my advice to you and others is, look for the satire!!      

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting Bellamarie that you are seeing Anne as giving Captain Wentworth a second look - to me she is giving herself a second look and allowing herself to see herself as an individual with thoughts that are not always the same as Lady Russell who she admires and who she allowed to persuade her not to marry Captian Wentworth. Like a daughter growing up she is realizing she is a person in her own right not a copy cat of her "mother's" values, ideas and ideals with Lady Russell being her replacement mother. Anne is certainly not rebelling and she is only acting tentatively on her own thoughts without sharing out loud all her thoughts.

I think the bit of Anne finding herself alone was a symbolic turning point of her realizing she is her own person with her own values, ideas and ideals. Once you know who you are it is more difficult to be persuaded by others. I think the whole bit of her visiting Mrs. Smith was her stepping into her own orbit rather than being a shadow or echo of those she depended on. Then to visit Mrs. Smith and NOT visit the esteemed and noble family members was really staking out a place of independent thinking.

I just see her looking at Captain Wentworth as a growing independent thinker in keeping with the time that the change is described as, "The turn of the 19th century granted people the opportunity to present new public exterior identities that provided insights into their individual private selves." I think Jane Austen was exploring this emerging concept that women, and men, were more than the traditional “ancien-regime” which excluded the concept of "self". Instead, your identity was expected to be malleable. Emerging was a new concept of the internal and external self. Anne and her father appear to be bridging the new concept.

As far as her Father, Walter Elliot is concerned - I am not seeing Jane Austen as sending a message that he is ridiculous but rather, a man who is focused on self expression that was expressed in fashion - where his skill in making a statement is on target he is inept at the other half of the responsibility as head of a family - it is important during this time and in this place to look elegant which includes showing careful attention to skin, hair, clothes and surrounding decor as well as, the ability to mix with those who have more prestige, more wealth and more status. At the same time a man is supposed to successfully husband money so he is financially secure and prosperous.

We learned early in the story that his deceased wife took care of that half of the job which gave them a solid financial footing. This was a challenge that she pulled off and it appears she did not resent him but loved him and was content, if not comfortable with his attention to the other half of creating the aura of an elegant, stylish, lifestyle while managing an ancient traditional family home. IF he had been able to do both his wife would not have been hailed for her accomplishment. No one, in a matter of months, if ever, can learn over-night how to pull off what his wife had years to perfect.

I think Anne expected, like all children, that their father to be a successful parent provides social acceptance as well as, the security of handling the family estate and financial security. A teen daughter feeling the bottom dropping out would be judgmental without being privileged to the workings of her parents marriage and how that was key to the success of their family -

If her father put himself into being financially secure and let his looks and family status go as he has his ability to handle money she would have blamed him for their not being suitable for a good marriage partner - she seems to be throwing that in his face as if, her liking those who have no prestige are more worthy of her pleasure, time and attention and yet, without her status she may never have met Captain Wentworth because they would not have been on the same or better footing as the brother of Captain Wentworth therefore, they possibly would never have met.

So I do not see Sir Walter as ridiculous but rather capable of only half of the work required to achieve success as a Regency, titled head of Kellynch. Men of Sir Walter's status, who were not in the military were followers of "Beau" Brummell and Walter Elliot was making his mark in style.

[JoanP]

Wonderful to read your posts - having been " out of pocket" this past week.  You provide different views of the characters I'd been regarding as one-sided.  I think now it would be a mistake to consider the story autobiographical..JA in Anne's character - though I do see the story a vehicle for JA to vent her criticism of the society of the time.

I just reread Chapter XVIII and Mary's funny, funny letter to Anne to refresh my memory of where we are in the story, right before the Captain comes to Bath.  Hated to leave Lyme.  Anne was happier there than in Bath.  Is Bath (B-ah-th) Anne's home now?

Mary's letter to her sister - " this is the end of Captain Benwick's being supposed to be an admirer of yours."  Seriously, what did you think of his engagement to Louisa?  Isn't he a bit "piano" for Lousa?  I think he was attracted to Anne (isn't every man in the story? )  I think that JA will leave us believing that they fell in love, even if they have little in common.  It's a neat way to "unshackle" Captain Wentworth...just in time for Bath.

The Admiral wants to get Frederick to Bath where there are plenty of pretty girls waiting for him.  Doesn't the Admiral seem unaware that his wife's brother was engaged to Anne at one time?
We leave Anne - in "senseless joy..."

[bellamarie]

Barb, With all due respect, I think you are a bit overzealous, and generous where Sir Elliot is concerned.  I see JA making him out to be a ridiculous snob, who is insensitive to his rudeness, and was careless, in his undisciplined spending behavior, where their finances were concerned. Now you have Lady Russell, trying to marry Anne off to Mr. Elliot, to regain the family estate and respect.  Sir Elliott and Elizabeth could care less about anyone but themselves. I love how Admiral Croft mentioned he had all the looking glasses removed from Sir Elliot's dressingroom.  A clear indication, Mr. Elliot was full of himself. I'm not sure JA indicated the wife's contentment or not being resentful. I'm not so sure I would find her such a happy wife if I had to take care of reining in his frivolous spending, to help save the home.

pg. 653  (Admiral Croft to Anne)  "I have done very little besides sending away some of the large looking-glasses from my dressing room, which was your father's.  A very good man, and very much the gentleman.  I am sure; but I should think, Miss Elliot" (looking with serious reflection), "I should think he must rather a dressy man for his time of life.  Such a number of looking-glasses!  oh, Lord!  there was no getting away from one's self.  So I got Sophy to lend me a hand, and we soon shifted their quarters; and now I am quite snug, with my little shaving glass in one corner, and another great thing that I never go near."  Anne, amused in spite of herself, was rather distressed for an answer.

pg. 598 "Vanity was the beginning and end of Sir Walter Elliot's character: vanity of person and of situation."

In the situation of the wife taking care of the finances, I suspect she had no choice considering her husband was an over spender and irresponsible.  Yes, he did have those expenses keeping up with his vanity.

pg. 600 "Her father was growing distressed for money.  She knew, that when he now took up the Baronetage, it was to drive the heavy bills of his tradespeople, and the unwelcome hints of Mr. Shepherd, his agent, from his thoughts.  The Kellynch property was good, but not equal to Sir Walter's apprehension of the state required in its possessor.  While Lady Elliot lived, there had been method, moderation, and economy, which had just kept him within his income;  but with her had died all such right mindedness, and from that period he had been constantly exceeding it.  It had not been possible for him to spendless; he had done nothing but what Sir Elliot was imperiously called on to do; but blameless as he was, he was not only growing in dreadfully in debt, but hearing of it so often, that it became vain to attempt concealing it longer, even partially, from his daughter. He had given her some hints of it the last spring in town; he had gone so far even as to say, "Can we retrench?  Does it occur to you that there is any one article in which we can retrench?"  and Elizabeth, to do her justice, had, in the first ardour of female alarm, set seriously to think what could be done, and finally proposed these two branches of economy, to cut off some unnecessary charities, and to refrain from new furnishing the drawingroom; to which expedients she afterwards added the happy thought of their taking no present down to Anne, as had been the usual yearly custom.  But these measures, however good in themselves were insufficient for the real extent of the evil, the whole of which Sir Walter found himself obliged to confess to her soon afterwards.  Elizabeth had nothing to propose of deeper efficacy.  She felt herself ill-used and unfortunate, as did her father; and they were neither of them able to devise any means of lessening their expenses without compromising their dignity, or relinquishing their comforts in a way not to be borne.

Sir Elliot depended on his wife to take care of the finances, while he took care of keeping up his good looks and snobbery.  Now that the wife is no longer here, he is hoping for Elizabeth to find ways to bail him out.  The sad thing is:  Elizabeth has taken on her father's traits of snobbery and social status, to the point they both admit they are not willing to even consider spending less to save their dignity and comforts.  
Ridiculous indeed!

I agree with your assessment of Anne, which I stated earlier, I only am waiting for her to find her voice and use it.  Which I suspect, will happen in the last chapters.

Question....Do you read chapters 19 - 24 so we can begin discussing them on the 19th?  Can't wait to see where this all ends!

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

It would be good to have read at least some of the last part by tomorrow; all of it would be great.  A lot happens, with some twists and turns, and we'll try to discuss it sort of in order.

[bellamarie]

4. Sir Walter says "The worst of Bath was the number of plain women." What are the ways Austen shows Sir Walter to be ridiculous? In what ways does she contrast him to Admiral Croft? Which one is funnier?

Oh how I wish I were a cartoonist, and could pen to paper, to draw these two characters.  I would have such a joyful time showing the differences of these two men.  Which one is funnier?  Hmmm....I suppose my cartoon character of Sir Elliot would be the funniest, with him standing in a room full of looking-glasses, admiring his perfect suit, hair and skin, while Admiral Croft's cartoon character, would be removing the looking-glasses, from the room.  Oh what a hoot, imagine the look on Sir Elliot's face.      

Okay, I am off to begin the last pages.

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Need to come back later today to read all of your wonderful post Bellamarie - Oh wow and while I was writing another - I am so glad you are posting your thoughts - this is great to have something to talk about - However, I have appointments all afternoon and will get back till just in time for Friday night news that I like to watch on PBS - a quicky - cannot find it now but the article I read yesterday about what the dress of the day represented and how both men and women went about it - the article did say that it was typical for men to use many full length mirrors during this time - that said to me where we can think it as over the top it was usual for stylish men of the Regency to have mirrors and upper class men were keeping the style of Beau Brummel in fashion.

With these tidbits I had to reconsider our use of 20th and 21st century ideas about manly decorum to understand Sir Walter. I realize that average man today does not subscribe to men's fashion magazines like Go however, there must be enough men who do to keep the magazine in business. After seeing the editor for Vanity Fair on the Charlie Rose show this week I thought he was probably dressing and wearing his hair in the latest fashion much as Sir Walter. In one breathe it took a bit to take him seriously till Charlie Rose, who knew him privately, brought out his intelligence and his many interests that included a passion for canoeing. You'd never guess and so I had a peek into an older, fashionably dressed, man.

When we consider the dress of the Regency navel officers they may have the rough skin from weather but they do wear colorful clothes with gold decorating the uniform, plumes in the hats of the admiralty. Not the style of Beau Brummel but dashing and far more decorative in its way and more, no individual style. All through the story Jane Austin writes favorably about those characters in the Navy as compared to the civilian men. The article I read on clothing indicated it was a time when your thoughts about life were understood by how you dressed, that men were going from what we called Kickers, pants just below the knee that put a man in the old, traditional school of thinking to the new long pants and small waist representing the new thinking.

However, that does not take into account Sir Walter's inability to handle his financial responsibility and in that we are seeing him differently - yes, his vanity to keep up with the fashion of the day is featured by Jane Austen but again, we each interpret what that can mean. I am just sharing what it means to me and back to, we all make a story our own. There is no one way to interpret the behavior of characters in a story -

Many of Austen's charactures she creates to describe her characters are added mood or dressing for the story like some authors describe the countryside or the weather. Sir Walter's personality is seen through the eyes of Anne and to me the story is about her justifying her ability to make an individual choice rather than be persuaded by others making a choice for her. With that as Austen's goal then I see Anne justifying her individual rights by finding fault with those who she depended upon in the past and who she no longer agrees with their values.

She knew she was happy with Captain Wentworth so now, it is her viewpoint or continue with the viewpoint of others that justified for her what, was happiness and what, she chooses for her future happiness. Breaking free from under a father is not easy so I would expect her to be harsh in her view of and judgement of him.

Never saw this book described as a coming of age story however, it is on both the social and the individual coming of age story - society was coming of age with revolutions having recently been fought to take into account the thoughts of the common man who wanted a voice in their future. Which again, the bit on dress I read alluded to that when they said someone's thoughts dictated their clothing.

[PatH]

 Doesn't the Admiral seem unaware that his wife's brother was engaged to Anne at one time?

That's right.  He was stationed in the East Indies at the time, and Mrs Croft was with him.  When Anne first meets them, she is relieved to see, by Mrs. Croft's behavior, that they know nothing of the affair.

[JoanK]

BARB and BELLAMARIE: there's so much to think about in both your posts. It's great when you disagree: it makes us think of things from different angles.

I admit, I think of Sir Walter and Elizabeth as Bellamarie does. But you have a point, Barb. Walter was spared thinking about money by his sensible wife and doesn't really know how. And he is just doing what society expects him to do. (Boy, I wish I had someone to spare me thinking about money!)

[JoanK]

"to me the story is about her [Anne] justifying her ability to make an individual choice rather than be persuaded by others making a choice for her."

That's very interesting! Do the rest of you agree?

[JoanK]

Sir Walter is silly, but not all spendthrifts are silly -- far from it! Thomas Jefferson was a spendthrift. So were many famous authors: James Joyce and Oscar Wilde for example. They leave a trail of friends and loved ones behind them who have suffered from their problem (in Jefferson's case, it was his slaves, whom he couldn't afford to free on his death because of his many debts).

[Jonathan]

What fun getting to know something of Jane Austen's writing with your help. I've never read a book with so much meaning between the lines, and the ton of meaning IN some lines.

I found Chapter 18 a splendid opportunity to get to know the heart and mind of Anne Elliot as she reacts to and broods on the news that is coming at her in the letter from Mary and the mouth of Admiral Croft. She's always been in love with Captain Wentworth, and the news is all good.

I like your question, JoanP:  'Doesn't the Admiral seem unaware that his wife's brother was engaged to Anne at one time?'

Of course the Admiral must have known. Must have talked about it with Sophie, his wife and the Captain's brother. I'm sure he was watching Anne very closely for a reaction to what he was saying. I think he would like to see her get a seaworthy mate. Like his own wife.

Did Anne's mother, with her values, ideas and ideals, waste her life on Sir Walter?
 

[JoanK]

"Did Anne's mother, with her values, ideas and ideals, waste her life on Sir Walter?"

I've wondered that too. Austen seems to indicate that she was happy enough. Austen seems well aware that many people don't achieve the level of happiness in their marriage that she expects for her heroines, and yet manage.

[PatH]

Did Anne's mother waste her life on Sir Walter?  Not totally; she made him a better person while she was alive: "...humored, or softened, or concealed his failings, and promoted his real respectability...."  She wasn't totally happy, though.  "...and though not the very happiest being in the world herself, had found enough in her duties, her friends, and her children, to attach her to life, and make it no matter of indifference to her when she was called on to quit them."

[bellamarie]

Did Anne's mother waste her life on Sir Walter?

Oh heavens no!  I don't think she wasted her life on him.  There are so many dynamics that make a marriage work.  I'm betting Mrs. Elliot was aware of the personality of her husband, and knew what it would take to be married to him. I think there was happiness in their marriage, but I do think it was a challenge on her part, to reign in his spending.  He has to be a bit comical to watch, strutting around looking at himself in mirrors, checking his attire to perfection.  I just laughed out loud, picturing his dressing room filled with so many mirrors.  I laughed so hard when I read the Admiral say, "there's no getting away from oneself."  JA provided the satire and comedy to balance out the drier parts of the novel.  To me...that's perfection!

PatH.,  " She wasn't totally happy, though.  "...and though not the very happiest being in the world herself, had found enough in her duties, her friends, and her children, to attach her to life,"

Ultimately, doesn't every married woman, count on these things to help add to her purpose and happiness in life, not only back in the 19th century, but in today's modern day too.

Barb, As for men dressing to keep up with the fashions of today, I have to admit, there are many obsessed men, who are spending thousand and thousands of dollars, to dress to the nines, tanning their bodies, working out, having all the hair on their bodies removed, buying hair products from the most expensive salons, styling their hair, and let's not even go into the cost for sportswear with, North Face, Under Armor, Nike, etc., etc,.  A pair of shoes could cost them a paycheck, and guys won't blink an eye to buy them.  So, where Sir Elliot is concerned, I would say he was a modern day, 19th Century man.  But on the same token, he like many men today, was/are in extensive debt, trying to live up to these fashion standards.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

To fill in while everyone is reading the next section, I’ll plug in my mini-description of the British Navy.   It can be skipped if it doesn’t interest you.

Advancement depended on three things in various proportions: influence (or patronage), ability, and luck.

A would-be officer started out as a midshipman.  These were quite young, in their teens, and they learned navigation, sailing, everything about ships they needed to know.  They were supposed to finish their ordinary school subjects too, but this schooling varied from ship to ship.  Dick Musgrave was a midshipman, and his complaint that Captain Wentworth was “too pertikular about the schoolmaster” suggests that Wentworth took this duty seriously.  You had to be a gentleman to become a midshipman, but just barely, not necessarily of any high rank, and, as Barb pointed out, you didn’t have to buy your way in, so you didn’t need money, though at all stages, it was hard to live the way you were expected to on your salary alone.  People with connections often asked captains they knew to take their sons as midshipmen.

After two years, you could take an exam, and if you passed, become a lieutenant, the most junior commissioned officer.

From then on, for promotion you would need either patronage (someone high up in the navy or politics) or to distinguish yourself in some way.  Captains wrote up reports on the actions of their officers, which figured in promotions.

The next stage was Commander.  You could now be the Captain of one of the smaller ships.  It’s confusing, because you were called Captain when you were in charge of a ship even though you weren’t really a captain.  Captain Benwick is a commander, even though he’s called Captain.  Wentworth would have been a commander when he was captaining the Asp.

The next step is the big one: captain, or post-captain.  You get this by getting the command of one of the larger ships, and once you get it you’ve got it made.  This marks the date of your seniority, and all you have to do to become an admiral is live long enough for your name to come to the top of the list.  (How did they get rid of the deadwood?  By giving them unimportant commands, and, when they reached admiral, retiring them as soon as they were promoted.)  Wentworth is now a post-captain.

Admirals go up a list in order too.  There are 9 of them and Admiral Croft is the second from the bottom.

At all stages skill and luck enter in.  You have to be good to win battles, but you also have to be lucky to get to be in a battle or to run into a privateer.  Wentworth demonstrates both in the Asp, when he runs into the frigate.  He was lucky to find her, but he had to be pretty good to manage to take her, because Asp was a sloop, a much smaller ship, and in poor condition.

[JoanP]

Pat, where did you acquire this knowlege?  Please tell!  I'll bet there's a story there.

Just finished the book...BOTH ENDINGS!  I won't comment as some may not be finished yet, but just have to ask - Does everyone have the ORIGINAL TWO ENDINGS attached at the end? What's that about?   Can you provide any information about the different endings?  I'm assuming that the ORIGINAL chapters were written by the author  first - and wonder about the edited endings.  Won't say more except to say that I much prefer the original chapters -

[JoanK]

Oh, my! I don't have two endings. Who does?

[bellamarie]

I have finished the book, and have only one ending.  Guess I  will Google for another ending. 

[JoanP]

Here's the original ending for those who don't have it...

original ending