Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier

In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.  It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis.  To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.  Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This  is  the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day.

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

November 1-8    Chapters 1-3 November 9-15   Chapters 4-5 November 16-22  Chapters 6-7 November 23-30 Chapters 8-10

SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION

 Chapters 8-10

1.  Were you surprised to learn that months after their "fight" Mary had sold another creature to Col. Birch - a new one, called a Plesiosaurus.  Who identified and named this specimen?

2. How  do Mary Anning and Elizabeth regard the fossils they collected?  Works of art or bones of the dead?  What does this tell about each character?

3. The Western Flying Post described Mary's next  find as "something different from an Ichthyosaurus and a Plesiosaurus," though William Buckland tells Elizabeth it is a Plesiosaurus.  Where would the newspaper have gotten this information? How did Elizabeth describe it when she entered Mary's workroom?

4. Why did Cuvier reject Mary's description of her latest find?  How did Elizabeth Philpot get involved this time?

5. More lightning bolts!  How does Chevalier describe their occurance in Mary's life? Do you remember any specific instances?

6.  How has Elizabeth changed since her rift with Mary and her journey alone to London?  Do you recall the metaphor Mary/Chevalier used to describe how she appears now?

7. Lots of Information mentionned in the Postscripts at the end of the book.  Which caught your attention?

8. Your overall rating of the book - how many stars? (one to five scale) Would  you recommend it to a friend?
 

Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel ;   Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures; The Annings' House and Shop;

DLs: AdoAnnie,   BarbStAubrey,   Marcie,  JoanP

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm you really have me thinking now - seems to me Colonel Brandon rushes off to the daughter of his youthful flame, both of these women were ill used by men - yes, again shame -

I wonder if it is a class thing and Mary would fit so that Elizabeth is as upset about her class status and the cage it puts her in - that she too hunts fossils and she was the one who educated Mary to her finds but here she is relegated to the back waters of Lyme, with little to no recognition of her work, and no love in her life - not sure if for her it is even about love - it seems to be more about her place and the freedom she would have in society as a married lady - almost like the Fanny Brice story made popular by Barbara Streisand, "Sadie, Sadie Married Lady" regardless of love.

I get the impression few among the upper classes could afford love - it is all about suitable incomes where as, the poor, that would include the Annings could experience love as so many girls and women were taken advantage of that they had different boundaries between men and women.  It was only the community they lived in they had to satisfy or be pushed down further as someone any Tom Dick and Harry could have his way.

[bellamarie]

Alas!  I found it, yes, it was Pride and Prejudice, Lydia Bennett at the age of 16,  ran off with Mr. Wickham.  They returned on her wedding day and it says, "Lydia was Lydia still_untamed, unabashed, wild, noisy and fearless.

Also it was Mr. Darcy, who went to take care of the matter and made Wickham decide to marry Lydia.  Mr. Bennett refused to give any expense to the wedding, he was so shamed by her actions.  It stated, "He MUST marry her."

So while Mary Anning is certainly no Lydia Bennett, I still feel "if" the kiss and sex took place, regardless of her social status, by the rules of society he MUST marry her.  This is why I think the entire scene was a daydream of Mary's.

Ciao for now~

[ANNIE]

Am I the only poster in here who hasn't read Jane Austen??  I did make a promise to Mary Page that I would read "Pride and Prejudice" but just haven't had the extra time lately. Too much going on at SL and medically at our house including a mild auto accident, have taken me away from being a regular here.

Marcie, I do agree with your thoughts about Mary and Liz.  This is HISTORICAL FICTON. But its most interesting to read Bella's findings about the true social mores at that time of the 19th Century.  Having said that, I found the "orchard coupling" that JoanP mentions a bit out of context for this novel. But, did enjoy all the rules being broken by both women, in their own way.

[marcie]

As everyone has said, there were lots of societal rules in place -- Historically, I don't know how frequently they were broken. Perhaps, quite a bit.

[bellamarie]

Annie, I had never read Jane Austen until a few years back.  My first of her books was Sense and Sensibility.  I remember it was very difficult for me to get adjusted to her style and voice of the English 1800's.  I thought geez, she sure does use a whole lot of words just to say a simple thing.  lolol Pride and Prejudice is truly my favorite of hers.  Once you read one, you just can't stop.  She was back then, like the Danielle Steele, of today's romance novels.  Although, I could never lessen Jane Austen's beautiful writing, by the comparison.  Jane Austen for me is Camelot.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Though the author writes of the same period, sets the story in the same location, even has Jane Austen visit the Annings' home, Tracy Chevalier's story does have a more contemporary "feel" about than Jane Austen. I don't find this as off-putting as some of you do.  Maybe it's because I don't believe that the "societal rules" that governed the circles of which Jane Austen wrote, actually applied to everyone...even at that time.

I agree with you, Marcie. Those rules were most likely broken quite a lot. Surely there were secret stolen kisses...and more likely than not, there were unwitnessed scenes like those in the orchard even at this time.  Who was to say that Colonel Birch must marry Mary Anning? Who even knew about it? It would have been a different story had she been pregnant, don't you think?

There appears to be a permanent rift between Mary and Elizabeth...clearly painful to both of them.  But what of Mary and the Colonel after their last meeting when he came to Lyme to deliver the proceeds of the auction?

  Were you surprised  to learn that months after their "fight" Mary had sold yet another creature to Col. Birch - a new one, called a Plesiosaurus. Surely this one is even more important ...and valuable than the Ichie in the story of evolution?  It would seem the Colonel's collecting days are not over...

[Steph]

Mary really thinks of her finds as sources of income so I was not surprised at her sale.. If Mary had enjoyed a kiss or two, that would make sense in the  novel, but sex.. still simply does not fit the novel at all.

[marcie]

Mary was in love/infatuated for the very first time. The author shows her as giving up her fossil hunting for a long while....taking to her bed... being in a daze... all over Birch. We can see that Mary is a passionate person. She's young. She is attracted to the very attractive Birch and he seems to have some feelings for her. He's paying a lot of attention to her. I can see that Mary would assess her chances of finding another man as not very probable. She wants to be with Birch and experience sex, although she knows it's likely to be just one time in her life, as she says "a birthday present to herself" on her 21st birthday. I think that Chevalier makes an adequate case for that, although I can see the point of view that others of you find this improbable.

As Steph says, Mary needs the income from the fossils. I think it makes sense that she would sell an important one to Birch since she likely still has feelings for him. Joan, I am a little surprised that he has the money to pay for it.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh I thought she was in reaction to her nearly dying and her injuries - I reread again - and yes, I could see where the orchard could happen - I am thinking of the young housemaid in Downton Abby and the officer who disowns any responsibility when she turns up pregnant - she was only fired because she was caught - and so it did happen - and we have many stories of household gentry taking advantage of their help - however, except for the house maid in Downton it is usually written about as a rape - but what was it, the housemaid Rosanna in the Collins we read this past summer - the one who was in love with Franklin Blake - vaguely I am remembering she was not a pure virgin.

Birch does tell Mary he cannot marry her and she lets him know it is what she wants for her Birthday - I think his kindness is unsettling - it is a scene that when reading makes you feel a bit uncomfortable.

Mary is wise realizing that Elizabeth is not as angry with her as she is about her circumstances. I also think Elizabeth would have preferred to fantasize about an available Birch and now she cannot without seeing Mary's face and so she really feels stripped of her future, her lack of recognition and now even her fantasy life.

Don't we start the last chapters today...?

[JoanP]

I keep forgetting the age difference between Mary and Elizabeth - so I looked it up.  Mary was born in 1799 and Elizabeth in 1780.  So, on Mary's 21st birthday, Eliz. would have been 40.  When you consider her age, and the fact that she grew up in London, not the remote village of Lyme Regis,  it is understandable that Elizabeth would have been aware of how society would have frowned at Mary's behavior...if anyone found out about it.  No wonder Elizabeth expressed her feelings about Mary's relationship with the Colonel.

Yes, we've started without you, Barb.  When there's a question, check the heading.  In these chapters we see that the rift between the two continues - even though the Colonel does not come back to Mary in Lyme Regis.  We also see the pain each feels at her loss of the friendship.

[JoanP]

Ichthyosaurus

Plesiosaurus

Plesiosaurus was one of the first of the "antediluvian reptiles" to be discovered and excited great interest in Victorian England. It was so-named ("near lizard") by William Conybeare and Henry De la Beche, to indicate that it was more like a normal reptile than Ichthyosaurus, which had been found in the same rock strata just a few years earlier. Plesiosaurus is the archetypical genus of Plesiosauria and the first to be described, hence lending its name to the order. Conybeare and De la Beche coined the name for scattered finds from the Bristol region, Dorset, and Lyme Regis in 1821.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plesiosaurus#Discovery_and_classification

[JoanP]

I can see the difference between the Ichie and the Plesie, but not sure which speciment was sent to the Geological Society, are you?  Another long-necked Plesie?

Elizabeth read about Mary's latest find in the  Western Flying Post saying this specimen was "something different from an Ichthyosaurus and a Plesiosaurus," (though William Buckland tells Elizabeth it is a Plesiosaurus.)  Did you wonder who could have written this article?  Mary?  If not Mary, who else?

Was there a difference between the first Plesie, which Mary sold to Colonel Birch - and this latest find?  Molly wants to sell this one to Col. Birch too.  Mary has her own ideas.
As far as I can tell, this one was exhibited at the Geological Society in 1824, Mary was 25.  I noted in the back of the book in the Postcripts, that Col. Birch had inherited his family title and estate in 1824, passed away in 1829. (No mention of a marriage.) 

[Steph]

I think the Col. really really needed to marry money.

[marcie]

I searched too and could not find a marriage for Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas James Birch who in 1824 took the last name Bosvile after he inherited the family title and estate. Maybe he had enough money for himself, even before the inheritance, but not enough to support a wife and family in the style in which he wanted to live. He wasn't raised or trained to be a "working" man.

I think it was a long neck species that was sent to the Geological Society. The specimen had such a long neck that Georges Cuvier couldn't believe it was from one skeleton. His anatomical theories, based on living animals and fossils that had been found to date, concluded that such a long neck could not have been supported.

[JoanP]

George Cuvier is so self-centered.  Just because he'd never seen anything like the creature in Mary's drawing, he's decided that there's no such thing - and that she has falsified her findings!  Couldn't he have shown some of his scientific mind -  made an attempt to see the specimen? As it turned out, it was an important finding. Makes him look bad.  I know - he was considered a great man..

More on George:

It was Cuvier who firmly established the fact of the extinction of past lifeforms. He contributed an immense amount of research in vertebrate and invertebrate zoology and paleontology, and also wrote and lectured on the history of science.

What had happened to these great beasts of the past? Cuvier believed that the Earth was immensely old, and that for most of its history conditions had been more or less like those of the present. However, periodic "revolutions", or catastrophes (a word which Cuvier avoided because of its quasi-supernatural overtones) had befallen the Earth; each one wiped out a number of species. Cuvier regarded these "revolutions" as events with natural causes, and considered their causes and natures to be an important geological problem. Although he was a lifelong Protestant, Cuvier did not explicitly identify any of these "revolutions" with Biblical or historical events. However, some later geologists, notably Rev. William Buckland in England, suggested that the most recent revolution was the Biblical Flood.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/cuvier.html

I liked Buckland's thinking about Noah and the flood being another "revolution" in the geological revolution of the earth.  I never really did understand where the flood fit into the scheme of things.  Buckland made sense to me.



 

[JoanP]

What I find ironic- it was Elizabeth's copy of George Cuvier's book that prompted Elizabeth to question that first "crocodile" fossil Mary found...Elizabeth could see what Mary found was not included in Cuvier's book. So now, Cuvier doesn't see what both Mary and Elizabeth can see...that this latest specimen is NOT the Ichthyosaurus ...and different from the Plesiosaurus - not included in his latest book.  Why wasn't he even the slightest bit curious to take a look at what Mary ha found?

[BarbStAubrey]

Looks like what has been typical in science - so many scientists thinking they were responsible for the ultimate understanding after some unique and original research only to in their lifetime have more research prove them only a stepping stone in the chain of understanding. At least now most scientists see themselves only as good as the last exploration. The more you read there was a lot of male ego tossing about in the nineteenth century as they dressed, ate, lived over puffed controlling the wealth it was certainly a voluptuous century and a century where many were pawns and others only as useful as they were appendages to male ego.  

Interesting about Birch - maybe why Tracy Chevalier felt safe using him in some of the events she cooked up creating her novel. Bottom line she is doing a good job - not Jane Austin but then she never sold the story as an extension of the Jane Austin stories.

Gotta catch up reading - been a full few days just trying to stay warm is an effort. We have a real freeze tomorrow that may even bring sleet and ice - shoot - I get so impatient with this kind of weather I have a difficult time settling down to read for any length of time.

[bellamarie]

Since I feel these last chapters for me shows Chevalier took extreme liberty with the book, I will tackle these two questions:

7. Lots of Information mentioned in the Postscripts at the end of the book.  Which caught your attention?
                                                                    
                                                                   Postscript
                                                           The Reader's Patience
Remarkable Creatures is a work of fiction, but many of the people existed, and events such as Colonel  Birch's auction and the Geological Society meeting where Conybeare talked about the plesiosaur did take place.  And Mary did indeed write at the bottom of the scientific paper she had copied out: "When I write a paper there shall not be but one preface."  Sadly she never did write her own scientific paper.

Twenty-first-century attitudes towards time and our expectations of story are very different from the shape of Mary Anning's life.  She spent day after day, year after year, doing the same thing on the beach.  I have taken the events of her life and condensed them to fit into a narrative that is not stretched beyond the reader's patience.  Hence events, while in order, do not always coincide exactly with actual dates and time spans.  Plus, of course, I made up plenty.  For instance, while there was gossip about Mary and Buckland and Mary and Birch, there was no proof.  That is where only a novelist can step in.

My personal feelings about how Chevalier "stepped in" is, I feel it was not fair to write the orchard scene, or the peeing on the beach in close proximity of Mary and Fanny, because there was no proof.  I feel an author should be responsible in keeping a real life person's character intact when writing about someone, especially who was as renowned as Mary Anning.  Going as far as writing the orchard scene, and the entire somewhat relationship, between Mary and Birch was careless of this author. I can't help but wonder how Mary Anning would feel, knowing Chevalier, pretty much trashed her reputation in print, through her novel?  I knew when I read these chapters, it was too hard to image this actually happened. As Steph said, "Sex sells" and someone mentioned a possible movie. But what about relatives of Mary's, even though it would be many generations later, would they be accepting of Chevalier's taking the liberty of marring Mary's reputation with the sex scene?  

I am sure back in the 19Th Century there were women who broke the rules of societal etiquette to some degree, but Chevalier wore on this reader's patience, and I do feel she stretched beyond the reader's patience (at least mine for sure) with giving Mary and Elizabeth far more leeway for this era, than I was willing to accept.  I kept calling, foul, as I read Eliz going on a ship of all men for days with no chaperon, going into an all men's Geological Society building where no woman had ever entered, sneaking in the hallway listening in on the meeting. Chevalier needed a way to reconcile Mary and Eliz's friendship, and it seems she took grave measures, by having Cuvier doubt the validity and honesty of Mary's plesiosaurus, bringing Molly to ask Eliz to step in and help clear Mary's name.

So, it leaves me wondering if Mary and Eliz actually ever had a rift that lasted years, during their lifetime/friendship.  I'm thinking not. And, was there ever a doubt of Mary's validity with the plesiosaurus?   I think not.   Another thing that upset me is how Chevalier allows Mary to accept the find the Day brothers actually found, pay them for digging it out for her and then taking credit for it as her own.  Throughout the entire book Chevalier is making such an important point that Mary should be given credit and recognition for her finds, and how unfair it was for Birch and Buckland to put their names on Mary's finds.  NOW it's ok for Mary to do it?  Whether the Day brother wanted it or not, in all honesty and integrity, Mary should not have take ownership and credit for it.  Even her mother was not happy with her actions.  Did this actually happen?  I think not.  Chevalier says the auction took place, but Eliz ever being there, I think not.  Conybeare talked about the plesiosaur at the meeting, but Eliz ever entering the building, I think not.

8. Your overall rating of the book - how many stars?  Would  you recommend it to a friend?

I'm going to give this book a rating of 5 stars out of 10.  I would only recommend this book to a friend, if I knew the friend was interested in fossils and other remarkable creatures.  Other than that.....all the rest frustrated me, and wore on my patience, because I feel it was not fair to the reader to "step in" and give way too much liberty in contradiction to the time era's societal etiquette.  Like the link stated I posted earlier, authors have guidelines they must stay in when writing about different time frames.  Chevalier broke the rules, and as she stated herself, "I made up plenty."

Ciao for now~

[bookad]

just wondering if what the author has put into play ( peeing in front of the women, but discreetly with the back turned!!! & making love in between 2 different classes of people) had happened during the time period in her research and she put it to these characters to be playing what she had read to pad the characters out give them some extra life, ....otherwise with not a lot of actual fact to go on there might not be much of a book to read....am going to look up other 2 other books I have seen written about 'Mary', unfortunately will not be reading during the time of this discussion....

note of interest:  there is a gathering of  an amateur fossil group in the vicinity of 'fort myers'  coming up....should be interesting considering having read this book

Deb

[BarbStAubrey]

Very satisfying read - the chapter just before the paragraph long chapter tied it up in a lovely way - I was going to share how interesting that Elizabeth found herself and her power aboard ship except than I had to step back realizing it was fiction -

It became difficult for me to talk about this book - in literature I look for a theme and a message - not so in a bio - this being neither and both made it a read with no focus. I was incensed during the bit where she has to plead with men to even be allowed in the building and to listen to a lecture that was arranged only because of Mary's finds - Including the nephew was fun - Elizabeth turned out to be a strong lady - not only bringing back her health with no antibiotics but then she lived longer than most of them.

Mary and Elizabeth's story is duplicated over and over with women who were and are still ignored bringing original discovery to their scholarship. I hear similar stories from my sister who is known for her research into women philosophers.

Hunting or even taking time in a museum to view fossils does not rank high on my list of things I want to do - I am glad I read this and have some acquaintanceship with prehistoric Fossils but then I was never that amoured with dinosaurs either.

I did not get the feeling of reading a Jane Austin or even an Elizabeth Gaskell- it was a thinner story without the subplots nor is it a book of nineteenth century manners on parade. It is easier to say what it is not - what it was to me was a nice read - not a 10 - around a 7 or 8.

Tracy Chevalier does a nice job of helping us see the treatment of skilled knowledgeable women and just because they were women they did not receive acknowledgement - it is a reminder of what it was like before the 1960s - in spots the story reminded me of a Gothic romance novel and other times a gentle English country side cozy expecting to see Miss Marple peeking around the next corner. It was a sparse story with atmosphere - pleasant and only memorable because of being introduced to some real people.

[Steph]

I discounted the boat trip as nonsense..All men and her,, in that period.. I dont think so..But it was fun to fantasize with it and of course the men only clubs were all over at that period. I liked the book because I really had never heard of the women and even a fictional story about real women doing interesting and unusual things pleased me..

[JoanP]

So many good points!  Need to go out for the morning, but can't wait to come back and consider more closely what you've said.
One small thing...if you are ready to rate the book, will you please use a five star basis?  That's the scale most book sites use.  Like one of my favorites - Goodreads.  (their overall ranking for this one - 3.75 stars)  I thought it would be fun to see how our group compares.  Bellamaria, since you've already rated on a ten-scale...and then Barb followed you, will you re-evaluate on  the five scale?  It was too subjective for me to try to translate your ten stars to five.

Clarified #8:

Your overall rating of the book - how many stars? (scale of  * to *****) Would  you recommend it to a friend?

Back later - here's another question for you - What did you think the author meant with the title - Remarkable Creatures?

[bellamarie]

Sorry, JoanP., I am so used to a scale of 1 - 10.  

On the scale of 1 - 5 stars I would rate the book a 2.75. For all the reasons I listed above.

I do want to say, I am glad I read the book.  I like to read new authors, and when I read books with our discussion group, you all bring so much more to the books, then I would ever get from them, by myself.  Sometimes because I am an aspiring author, I have a tendency to critique authors a bit tight.  Lo and behold, I have had a few published writings, and I am sure others do the same to me.    

I think Remarkable Creatures, simply means there are so many different remarkable creatures they were finding on the beach, washing ashore.  They were considered "creatures" because they really were some from of animal species.  I noticed the #3 definition below says, "created thing: somebody or something that has been created."  So in that assessment, my belief is that God created these species, and I don't think if they became extinct it has any bearing on God seeing any of them as imperfect, so he did away with them.  Giving thought to Eliz questioning if God felt he had made a mistake or something bad, part of her argument or wonderment, as to when these existed, were created and by what nature they were created.  

Bing Dictionary     Definition of creature (n)
crea•ture[ krchər ]

1.  living being: any living person or animal
2.  unpleasant living being: an unpleasant or frightening living thing
3.  created thing: somebody or something that has been created
http://www.bing.com/search?q=creature%20definition&pc=conduit&ptag=AFF7C10AB685B4430AAF&form=CONTLB&conlogo=CT3210127&ShowAppsUI=1

While typing, I had a song that entered my head, which we sing in church often.  My personal take is the Master of the sea, is meaning God, since he is the creator of all.  IMO

All The Ends of the Earth  (By Bob Dufford)[/i]

REFRAIN:  All the ends of the earth,
               All you creature of the sea, lift up your eyes
               To the wonders of the Lord. For the Lord of the earth,  
               The master of the sea, has come with justice for the world.

1.  Break into song at the deeds of the Lord,
          The wonders He has done in every age. (refrain)

2.  Heaven and earth shall rejoice in his might;
           Every heart, every nation call Him Lord. ( refrain)
  
3. The Lord has made His salvation known, faithful to His
          promise of old.  (refrain)

4. Let the ends of the earth, let the sea and it holds
           Make music before our King! (refrain)


As I was reading this book, and each of you mentioned where you have visited, some actually in Lyme Regis, experiencing the activity on the beaches, I had to giggle, because like Mary, Eliz, Buckland, Birch, Joe, Richard Anning, Molly Anning, and all the others who at one time or the other scanned the beaches in hopes of finding a "remarkable creature,"  I felt like our discussion group was indeed scanning those beaches too.  I may not have gotten the feeling from Chevalier that I was in the setting of the 1800's, but I surely felt it from those who posted sharing your knowledge and experiences.  As always, we are a unique book club, that never leaves a stone, pebble, fossil or creature unturned!  We hold the author accountable, and we give great praise when we know we have finished reading a great book!  I may not have found this particular book great, but I can say I found this discussion grrrreeeaaattt!!!!

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

I think I will go for a 4 - parts of it for content would be 3 but then it is fiction and this is probably no more accurate than The Mists of Avalon. All we can do is compare expected behavior to what we have read in other books - she is trying to entertain and instruct and for that she did a decent job - when all is done I think it was a thin read - several of the contemporary authors we have read offered us in depth issues to chew on like, Major Pettigrew's Last Stand and The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry

And as remarkable as the fossil finds and as remarkable as the men who first brought this study of Paleontology to the world's attention and as remarkable as these two woman were who hunted in all kinds of weather with great depth of knowledge mixing all this with fiction and at times what appears to be fantasy fiction did not bring me to a place where I could step into the story as I can with many of the nineteenth century authors - but then they are included in the canon of greats where as I doubt Tracy Chevalier is in that sphere of acclaim.

[bellamarie]

Well said, Barb!  Considering I just finished Jane Austen's wonderful Pride and Prejudice, and Persuasion, I think anything following them, would have seemed watered down to me.  Austen has spoiled me where the nineteenth century is concerned.  Oh Major Pettigrew's Last Stand,  I so loved that book.   

Ciao for now~

[salan]

I did not have trouble with the mix up between fact and fiction because this book was fiction; so I expected the author to take some leeway.  I am glad I read the book and am sorry that I didn't  know about the fossils when we were in Lyme Regis.  I will say that I did get tired of the book the last few chapters.  I would rate it a 3.
Sally

[JoanP]

It was a challenge, reading the book as fiction, Sally, wasn 't it - with actual people in the shadows.  I kept wondering more about their story...and how much was true, how much was Ms Chevalier 's  creation.  Maybe it's not fair to compare her with JA Austen...Jane never faced such a challenge. She could let her imagination run wild.  Well, not too wild.  She did have to consider the social mores of the time.  Ms. Chevalier had these two ladies who actually were stretching the limits of what a lady could or could not do at this time.  

A good question, Steph - did Elizabeth Philpot ever spend days aboard a ship, un chaperoned - with only male passengers?  Or was this fiction.  I wouldn't be surprised if it actually happened...

[JoanP]

I wonder if any of you considered Mary and Elizabeth, "remarkable creatures" - along with the fossils they found on the beaches of Lyme Regis? Might Tracy Chevalier have intended that when choosing the title?

If so, what was remarkable about them?

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, i think they were all remarkable in a remarkable age.

[bellamarie]

Yes, I actually wondered if the title could be looked at two different ways, "remarkable creatures" on the beach, human and animal.  Now that I have finished this book, I would really like to know more real life, factual information about Mary and Eliz's life.  My curious mind just may wander around the internet searching for more.  Maybe I just might find a remarkable creature!

Sally, I am with you, I also got a bit tired of the book in the last four chapters.  But unlike you, it was the fiction that I tired from.  I wanted more real life facts about their lives.  In the beginning of the book, we discussed this was a HIStory, because it involved real people, places and events that took place over fifty years ago.  So just maybe that set me up expecting more history, rather than fiction.  I am finding over the past few years, I tend to enjoy more non fiction rather than fiction.  Although a good love story or mystery is always an enjoyable welcoming read too.   

Ciao for now~ 

[bookad]

I just read the book and enjoyed....... and would give the  author a 4 for what she gave to me with the reading....by the way  just finished her book about the underground railway and read it in 2 days.....had a real feeling while reading about the seaside in England and the 2 women wandering the beaches thru all types of weather looking, looking, looking....loved their passion ....reading about people with passion like theirs is truly wonderful in my books...could visualize the so much more wildlife that would not be cut short by our present society excesses....i.e. flocks of birds might be hundreds, of course this was not America, but still less people on the planet....
am very glad I read the book...and thanks to all of you for adding such substance to my read

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[Steph]

Trying to be fair.. I kept fighting with the fact or fiction through the whole book..Sooooo as fiction,, a 4..and oh I do wish I know enough about fact to know about some of it, I did not believe.. Still I am glad I read it.

[bellamarie]

I have to take my book back to the library today so it won't be overdue.  I have a ton of things to do to get prepared for our family Thanksgiving feast.  Who is crazy enough to go purchase new living room furniture to be delivered one day before Thanksgiving?  ONLY ME I am sure. Had to have all my living room furniture moved to the family room in our basement last night, now it's get movin to get everything put back together before the delivery men come tomorrow morning. Ughhhh....so I will take the time now to thank all our moderators for a wonderful discussion.  I look forward to our December read.

May each and everyone of you have a very blessed, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I agree with Bellamarie - a great discussion and I too have to prepare - with our severe cold front I did not get anything done - have to focus now and will probably be up all hours trying to get it done. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[salan]

My son in law, daughter and 12 yr old grandson will be here tomorrow.  They are going to do all the Thanksgiving dinner, including desserts.  My sil loves to cook & they told me that they do not want me to do a thing...They are even bringing the food.  It will seem strange for me not to do anything.  It seems like I should be making cornbread, etc.  Everyone should have a family like mine!!  We have had an unusual long cold spell for Texas, so tomorrow I am going to make a big pot of homemade vegetable beef soup and we will have that tomorrow and Friday.  Happy Thanksgiving to all.

I am thankful for the moderators we have had for these discussions.  You all are doing a great job.
Sally

[Steph]

I am off this morning for Bradenton to enjoy Thanksgiving with my entire family.. Just two sons, wives and two grandchildren, but thats enough. Will be gone until Sunday, will take my IPAD,so hopefully I can coax it into letting me see what is going on.. I loved the discussion.

[JoanP]

Up early...need to get to the grocery store before it gets crazy over there - did the big list, now the last minute - and then spend the rest of the day on pies and stuffing.  Luckily the crowd won't be here tomorrow (don't have to clean the house!)... Or move in new furniture!
 Husband  likes the smell of turkey...and leftovers...so will do a turkey here the next day.  Who is crazier, Bella?
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! When counting blessings, I think of you...and what we have here!

[JoanP]

Steph, it's been a fun discussion, hasn't it? So many interesting observations made me consider these two women in a different way than I would have if reading alone.  While Mary Anning is of interest, it is was Elizabeth Philpot who caught my attention from the beginning.

Sooner or later, someone would have noticed what Mary Anning was finding on the beach of Lyme Regis...we'll never know if Mary would have been recognized in the history of Paleontology.  We've seen what Elizabeth did for Mary...since Mary was a child.  How much of this was Tracy Chevalier's fiction? (Did Elizabeth really travel alone unchaperoned to London for Mary, for example?).
I hope those of you who are searching for more on the real Elizabeth Philpot have more luck than I did. There were some interesting bits in the Postcripts about her, that may shed some light.  

Let's talk some more after the dishes are all put away and we've had a good long nap.
Glad you've got your laptop with you, Steph!
Again, Happy Thanksgiving -enjoy the turkey...it's good more you!

Deb - would like to hear more of the author's next book about the woman who worked on the Underground Railroad...

[bookad]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone....I am so lucky my husband & I had Thanksgiving near Yarmouth, Nova Scotia in October with old friends; and now we get to celebrate Thanksgiving again with new friends in our community.

Wishing you all the best

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