Author Topic: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online  (Read 48678 times)

Steph

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2013, 08:41:12 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier

In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
 It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis.  To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.

 Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This  is  the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day.
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:  
  November 1-8    Chapters 1-3
   November 9-15    Chapters 4-5
  November 16-22    Chapters 6-7
  
SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION

 Chapters 4-5

1. Elizabeth asks the questions that are still argued today - The difference between Natural Theology and Revealed Theology.

2. How did the Dessenters orginate?

3. How does fossil hunting connect Newton and Immanuel Kant and Aristotle?

4. Under the Test Act of 1673 could Reverand Jones answer Elizabeth differently?

5. There appears to be a scramble for rights - are there rules of behavior for the hunters, escavators and collectors?

6. When does Elizabeth acknowledge she has independence, forthrightness and she sees herself as Lyme's "queer" one?

7. Mary, in her simplicity also has questions about her finds and how they fit God's plan. How does Mr. Buckland explain the tensions between geology and the Bible?

8. Does Mr. Buckland's explanation sound more reasonable than the explanation given to Elizabeth by Reverend Jones?

9. Mary respects Mr. Buckland but does she trust him?


Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel ;   Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures; The Annings' House and Shop;





A good example for me was Mary and even Elizabeth reacted to Colonol Birch.. and that I know is reading ahead, but also Mr. Buckland for Mary.. Did she really know them?? Was she romantically interested? Now someone talks of a boy her own age, which certainly made more sense to me.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2013, 08:48:05 AM »
The beauty of reading, and discussing books with others, is the interpretation they express.  I believe each person brings their own personal life experiences to the story, and takes from it what they personally feel.  There is not necessarily a truth, or reason, to support a readers feeling.  It just is........

I like these quotes:

"Certainly one of the surprising truths of having a book published is realizing that your book is as open to interpretation as an abstract painting. People bring their own beliefs and attitudes to your work, which is thrilling and surprising at the same time."
__ Marisha Pessl

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/interpretation

“The true reader reads every work seriously in the sense that he reads it whole-heartedly, makes himself as receptive as he can. But for that very reason he cannot possibly read every work solemly or gravely. For he will read 'in the same spirit that the author writ.'... He will never commit the error of trying to munch whipped cream as if it were venison.”
― C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/interpretation.html#XZc24pWQ6tOwhyGX.99

Okay on to read the next couple of chapters.  Can't wait to see Mary's new finds!

Ciao for now~


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2013, 09:21:19 AM »
Quote
"I wonder if the freedom of both Mary and Elizabeth is about class - we see the poor in nineteenth century literature free to roam all over towns and countryside - as to Elizabeth, she and her sisters appear to be less financially comfortable than those we read about in the Jane Austen stories"

Barb, I couldn't agree more.  While Tracy Chevalier draws much from Jane Austen's society, she is not writing about the "financially comfortable"  as JA was.  The Philpot girls cannot be held to the same standards as upper class ladies.  They are living on a small income, though high for Lyme Regis.  They have no monied parents who can arrange marriages for three daughters through connections.  Brother John has sent them off to this remote village, avoiding any responsibility for their future, other than the small income left in their parents' will.

Don't you think the British foreign wars had a lot to do with the decreasing the male population and the number of unmarried young women during this period?  I found this:

Quote
"The signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776, the year after Austen’s birth, signaled the start of the American Revolution, followed in the next decade by the beginning of the French Revolution in 1789. For the next two decades, Britain was engaged almost without cease in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars of 1793–1815, one of the most significant conflicts in British history. Among the effects of England’s foreign wars during this period were great financial instability and monetary volatility."
No wonder there was much competition for single men not engaged in these wars.   I wonder what the ratio was.  No wonder we are reading about such a number of "spinsters" during this period.  
I think Elizabeth and Louisa were wise to live their lives as they chose, given their situation and limited choices...even though they may have been regarded as "too free" for young women at the time.  


JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2013, 09:40:19 AM »
I found this interesting, and perhaps important to this conversation about women's freedom during this period. The beginning of Modern Feminism in England: Mary Wollstonecraft's "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman"
Quote
"She is rightly remembered as one of the founders of modern feminism.
 Her daughter inherited her name and later become Mary Shelley, author of the classic novel: Frankenstein."




Steff, I think we'll all meet up with Mr. Buckland in the upcoming chapters and promise to consider whether his suggested relationship with Mary Anning - or Elizabeth Philpot was Tracy Chevalier's imagination at work - or real.  I do know from reading some of these links that he did exist - and did come into contact with these two women.

ANNIE

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2013, 11:29:45 AM »
In looking around about Mary and Henry de la Beche, I found in a lengthy article this most interesting few paragraphs:

In 1826, at the age of 27, Anning managed to save enough money to purchase a home with a glass store-front window for her shop, Anning's Fossil Depot. The business had become important enough that the move was covered in the local paper, which noted that the shop had a fine ichthyosaur skeleton on display. Many geologists and fossil collectors from Europe and America visited Anning at Lyme, including the geologist George William Featherstonhaugh, who called Anning a "very clever funny Creature."[24] He purchased fossils from her for the newly opened New York Lyceum of Natural History in 1827. King Frederick Augustus II of Saxony visited her shop in 1844 and purchased an ichthyosaur skeleton for his extensive natural history collection.[25] The king's physician and aide, Carl Gustav Carus, wrote in his journal:


We had alighted from the carriage and were proceeding on foot, when we fell in with a shop in which the most remarkable petrifications and fossil remains—the head of an Ichthyosaurus—beautiful ammonites, etc. were exhibited in the window. We entered and found the small shop and adjoining chamber completely filled with fossil productions of the coast ... I found in the shop a large slab of blackish clay, in which a perfect Ichthyosaurus of at least six feet, was embedded. This specimen would have been a great acquisition for many of the cabinets of natural history on the Continent, and I consider the price demanded, £15 sterling, as very moderate.".[26]


And all along, I thought that the picture of Mary Anning's shop was of her parents home from which she sold curies.  To think that she made enough money to own her own shop and was visited by many high society or highly scientific men.  Even the King of Saxony and his physician.  Amazing!
I wonder if her mother, Molly, was still alive?
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2013, 01:23:56 PM »
Barb and JoanP.,   I would tend to agree with you on this:

"The Philpot girls cannot be held to the same standards as upper class ladies.  They are living on a small income, though high for Lyme Regis."

Although, as we will see in tomorrow's chapters, even Mary Anning, who is a poor girl, is required to have a chaperone with her on the beach with Mr. Buckland, because she is being gossiped about.  Which actually answers my concerns for Mary, which I believe someone pointed out in a prior post, some things will be answered in the coming chapters.  So my question now would be, do you suppose Elizabeth is being gossiped about, behind her back?   As for the Jane Austen comparison I used, I was referring to Persuasion, and the family was not "financially comfortable", so I don't think the income status would make a difference, in the standards the females were held to, in the 1800's.  Wandering around on the beach with other men, and approaching them, some total strangers in fact, does not ring true for me.  It sounds risky, dangerous and reason for gossip to harm a woman's reputation. So, this is why I personally, consider it fiction.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2013, 02:01:12 PM »
http://books.google.com/books?id=RV24mJB8tXAC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=mr+buckland+and+mary+anning&source=bl&ots=0_EAXBauWe&sig=OutA9YkeqoU1_7aZy-ueV8uKsvk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ty59Uon5D6HayAHKhYC4DA&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=mr%20buckland%20and%20mary%20anning&f=false

This is a book I think I may decide to read.  The Dragon In The Cliff (A Novel Based On the Life Of Mary Anning) by Sheila Cole
The author does say, "Since there are so few known facts about Mary Anning, Sheila Cole decided that the truest way to tell her story was through fiction."  She spent years researching the story, including living in England for a year.  She walked along the beaches of Lyme Regis where Mary worked and read her day book in The British Museum in London.  Even more than the scientific work, it was Mary Anning's character that intrigued Ms. Cole and inspired her to write.

While browsing through some pages of this book, I did notice Mr. Buckland mentioned. So, if there are little known facts about Mary Anning, our author TC, would indeed have to also use fiction to tell her story, hence the concerns Steph and myself have been sensing.

This was a very interesting Review of the book:

Editorial Reviews
School Library Journal
Gr 5-9-- Mary Anning is the perfect subject for a children's biography, for she was only 13 when, in 1811, she became the first person to discover the fossil of an entire marine dinosaur. Cole does a wonderful job of describing Anning's struggles to overcome the biases of the times, the English town in which she lived, and its prejudices. Anning always had to fight to win the approval of both her parents and the gossipy townspeople, who thought it improper for a young girl to spend her days fossil hunting at the beach. While Cole's facts sometimes differ from the accounts in Fradin's Remarkable Children: Twenty Who Made History (Little, 1987), she also mentions that much of the information on her subject was sketchy, nonexistent, or false. Her novel is entirely believable, and her sensitivity to Anning's plight can't help but remind readers that it wasn't so long ago that women had little say as to the direction of their own lives. Children will identify with Anning's struggles with friends, family, and the ever-present poverty, but by including the societal instigators of her many problems--classism and sexism--Cole refuses to write down to her audience, or to simplify history. She presents here not only the effects, but also the historical causes, and for that she should be commended. --Cathryn A. Camper, Minneapolis Public Library
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-dragon-in-the-cliff-sheila-cole/1016952653?ean=978059535
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Steph

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2013, 09:35:51 AM »
Ah Another book on Mary. I may try to find it. Sounds interesting and I find myself drawn more and more to the fact-fiction line in this book.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ANNIE

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2013, 11:31:32 AM »
"The Dragon in the Cliff"!  Hmmmm, just the title makes me want to persue the story further.  Also, I am impressed by the librarian's opinion of the author presentation.  Must look at the library and for the the other book about  the twenty children.

Having been curious about archeology and paleontology, I googled a bit to see what I could find.  More satisfied dealing with paleontology as a true science, I found interesting articles. In case anyone might be interested, here's one that isn't hard to understand.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/fosrec/Stucky.html

 
 

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2013, 03:37:07 PM »
Had you noticed the HUGE issue that Tracy Chevalier inserts in this story in chapter 4 - fiction I think is Elizabeth actually questioning the vicar in the church - however, Chevalier does seem to make Reverend Jones appear like he is stumbling with his explanation. Is that Chevalier's way of tipping the scale do you think?

Trying to put these differences in a time frame - The Transcendentalists,  a religious and philosophical movement with Dickenson, Emerson and Thoreau happening in New England during this time had not reached England until the 1830s. So, where Elizabeth's questioning could be as result of this thinking it was not available yet - neither was Darwin who did his work in the 1850's - her simple questions remind me of questions we had as kids so, they are natural enough. However, Tracy Chevalier devotes pages in her book to this age old argument -

Who are the Dissenters - easy enough to assume it is a word we hear and simply means folks who go against the norm - but then the question, is there is group or a movement who at the time were labeled Dissenters - turns out yes.

Here are a couple of links that will help us get more out of what appears to be Elizabeth's simple almost child like logical questions.

A look at Natural versus Reveled Theology simply explained.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_theology

Quote
Natural theology is... based on reason and ordinary experience. Thus it is distinguished from revealed theology (or revealed religion) which is based on scripture and religious experiences of various kinds;

A nice link giving us the background on Dissenters in Britain
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/dissenter.html

And so if folks were not aware yet of Darwin's discovery nor the Transcendentalists movement from America what do they have to draw on that justifies these questions by any who at the time, looked at the natural world that includes science in face of religions that believe the bible is the storehouse of earth's history?  How can Elizabeth continue in the world of fossil hunting if she accepts completely the words of Reverend Jones? Why does Reverend Jones suggest the Congressional church is less than the Church of England? What does the Congressional Church believe and what has he, Reverend Jones, made a vow to uphold?

A dynamite issue that is still the center of many a Christian viewpoint placed square in the middle of Tracy Chevalier's story.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2013, 08:57:32 PM »
Barb,  "Had you noticed the HUGE issue that Tracy Chevalier inserts in this story in chapter 4 - fiction I think is Elizabeth actually questioning the vicar in the church - however, Chevalier does seem to make Reverend Jones appear like he is stumbling with his explanation. Is that Chevalier's way of tipping the scale do you think?

Thank you for all the information you provided in your post.  Yes, it was the HUGE Elephant in the pages.  :o  I did get the impression TC is trying to make the argument, of evolution vs. creation.  I noticed in the first chapter when she spoke of the Dissenters, and the church of England, pg. 17 It is not surprising that there are several Dissenting sects in the town.  Of course the main church, St. Michael's, is still the Church of England, but there are other chapels too that serve those who question the traditional doctrine:  Methodists, Baptists, Quakers, Congregationalists."

Then on pg. 27 Another mention of Mary Anning being a Congregationalist, Elizabeth is asking Mary if she labels and keeps track of where she finds her fossils and Mary replies: "I don't read nor write." (Eliz) "Will you go to school?"  She shrugged again.  "Sunday school maybe.  They teach reading and writing there."  "At St. Michael's?"  "No, we aint Church of England.  We're Congregationalists.  Chapel's on Coombe Street."

These I believe are TC's device, to begin having the reader open their minds to the thought of the fossils being before the flood and creation, hence they would have been from evolution, rather than God creating and saving these animals.  I found it also interesting how she asks, if God would reject something he has made as if he made a mistake in making it.  That was very strange for me, because for those who believe in the Bible, the book of Genesis, it is of creation, that God made ALL things, we know it is our belief all that God made is good.  Why would an extinction, be looked at as a mistake God made?  We have hunters who kill off rare species, making them extinct, and never would I question because that particular specie no longer exists, it must be considered its because God saw it as a mistake.  Natural environments with drastic changes, is also responsible for certain species dying off.  I was finding this theory/conversation completely strange.  Elizabeth, being so persistent with Rev. Jones, rang fiction, because back then I don't think any woman, would challenge a man of the cloth, about God's intent, or creation, especially when it would be directly or indirectly hinting that evolution is how the world began.  That would be considered blasphemy, and assuredly excommunicated from the church. 

Barb, your question fits perfectly here, "And so if folks were not aware yet of Darwin's discovery nor the Transcendentalists movement from America what do they have to draw on that justifies these questions by any who at the time, looked at the natural world that includes science in face of religions that believe the bible is the storehouse of earth's history?"
 
Interestingly enough, through researching Mary Anning, she and her brother Joseph have Gravestones in St. Michael’s churchyard.  And there is stained glass windows in St. Michael’s church in her memory.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Anning   I would have posted the pictures of the gravestones and stained glass window but I don't know how to insert pics.  I clicked insert image above, but nothing seems to work for me???

So does somewhere in the story, does Mary and Joseph leave being Congregationalists, and become members of the church of England, St. Michael's?  And, does anyone else see TC opening up her readers to debating evolution vs. creation, as I do?

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2013, 11:11:24 PM »
Interesting links to help understand these different theories and groups:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_2.htm
Darwin and Natural Selection

http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
Darwin’s Theory Of – A Theory in Crisis Evolution


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Dissenters

Browsing in the link I posted earlier about Mary Anning I found....

"It was around this time that she switched from attending the local Congregational church, where she had been baptised and, in which she and her family had always been active members, to the Anglican church. The change was prompted in part by a decline in Congregational attendance that began in 1828 when its popular pastor, John Gleed, a fellow fossil collector, left for the United States to campaign against slavery. He was replaced by the less likeable, Ebenezer Smith. The greater social respectability of the established church, in which some of Anning's gentleman geologist customers such as Buckland, Conybeare, and Sedgwick were ordained clergy, was also a factor. Anning, who was devoutly religious, actively supported her new church as she had her old."[
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2013, 06:42:13 AM »
Bella, I see you've answered your own quesiton about the stained glass window in Mary Anning's honor in St. Michael's...  Your question about posting photos is not as easily answered...but will try.

1. You right click on the picture you'd like to show, then move to the very last item on the menu that comes up - "Properties."

2. You will see on list that comes up the URL address - copy the whole thing

3. paste the url you copied into a post, highlight it and then click the first  icon for pictures and graphics that you see above the emoticons, under the B for bold.  You should then see the image code surrounding the url.  It will look like this (I'm leaving  spaces so you can see the code here, otherwise the picture will show:

  [ img] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/MaryAnningWindow.jpg/220px-MaryAnningWindow.jpg [ /img]

When removing the spaces, you get the image:


JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2013, 07:16:13 AM »
Why did Elizabeth go to the Rev. Jones for guidance in the first place, he of the "uninspiring sermons"?  She's confused about the creature Mary has found...and its implications.  I don't think she intended to get into a confrontation with him - I think she needed to hear what her Church thought of the possibility that these creatures might have come from a much earlier age than the Bible indicated.  It WAS a radical idea, wasn't it?  "If God let creatures die out, what about us?"

I thought it was humorous when she asked him what he thought of fossils - his response, "I don't think about them." (I'll bet that was fiction! :D)

When Fanny was called on to read the Biblical passage to her, Elizabeth noticed annotations in the Bilbe -  in red -  of Bishop Ussher's calculations"
"God created Heaven and Earth on the night preceding the 23rd of October 4004 BC."  
I've never heard of Bishop Ussher and his calculations...have you?  Really fascinating. Were his calculations widely accepted at this time?  There is lots of research about how he arrived at October 23, 4004 - but too detailed to d to go into.  I would like to know if his calculations are accepted anywhere today?


Steph

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2013, 09:42:26 AM »
I have to confess that that is the very first time, I have ever seen a date for creation.. Interesting?? Was it universally accepted or what.. Ranks right up there with all of the crusades people deciding they had the bone or or the place of all over current day middle east..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2013, 10:22:09 AM »
Good thing you haven't paid me yet for those instructions, Bella!   :D

When you click on PROPERTIES, you should copy this URL and then it would work.  I don't know where you got your coding...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/MaryAnningWindow.jpg/220px-MaryAnningWindow.jpg


bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2013, 10:28:40 AM »


Hmmmm it is not working for me. I keep getting just the icon instead of the pic.  Must be doing something wrong. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2013, 12:12:19 PM »


This is the gravestone with Mary & Joseph Anning's name in the St. Michael's graveyard.  As you can see from my earlier post they joined the Church of England due to lack of members in the Congregationalists.  

YEA!!!  I did it!!!   Thank you so much JoanP., for your instructions.  I so appreciate learning new things.

This was indeed a first for me to hear, never knew there was ever a date established.  I will have to do some checking on this to see if it were fact or fiction.....

"God created Heaven and Earth on the night preceding the 23rd of October 4004 BC."

Interesting read if you care to try to understand his calculations:  http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/ussher.html

Now I am off to Christmas shop for the day.  Yes, I did say "Christmas" shop. I have 6 grndkids so I have to get an early start.  Everyone have a great Sunday.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2013, 12:23:45 PM »
I think she's got it!
But let's go back to Chapter 4...Mary has some good days before it's over...

Do you get the idea that there really wouldn't be a story if it wasn't for Elizabeth Philpot?  When the girls went to visit brother John that summer - and little Johnny came upon the "croc" in Bullock's museum... he was able to identify it from Elizabeth's watercolor drawings she'd done for him...(I imagine this was fiction...but maybe these watercolors exist to prove me wrong. ) But I do believe that Elizabeth saw such as display as described here.  Bad enough the creature was dressed up as described here - fins/paddles stuffed into the vest and then made to look like crocodile legs!  What really got to me - and to Elizabeth was the label..."Found by Henry Hoste Henley"

When confronted he told her that the creature was found on his property, his cliffs...that Mary Anning was only a worker, like the Days...and what she found was really his. What do you think?  Does he have a claim to the creature - and anything else that Mary Anning comes across in the future?
\

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2013, 12:45:16 PM »
I think if I remember reading, Mary's mother takes over the bargaining with future fossils Mary finds, and makes Henley sign a contract to where they will no longer be his property.  I also, think I did come across an image of sketches of the creature.  Did you know that Eliz. is the person who first began using shavings of stones/fossils, to mix and make ink.  How clever is that!

I'm not sure if I can go as far as thinking without Eliz. there would be no story, because I feel Mary and her mother would have been able to get to the same destinations with her creatures.  Her mother was smart enough to get Henley to sign that contract, and once the creature was on display, other important people began coming to Lyme Regis, which in time would have gotten Mary the attention, knowledge, contacts and capabilities to succeed.  But......Eliz. sure did make it happen much faster with having the finances and contacts to get Mary acknowledged, and on her way.

Okay now I am off.........
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2013, 02:44:19 PM »
Interesting tid bits about that Steph - Bishop Ussher  (1581-1656) was a bit younger but lived during the time of Galileo (1564 – 1642) -   the trial in Rome of Galileo took place in 1633 when the Bishop was age 52 - this PDF linked at the bottom, explains that Ussher's work was not anyway an attempt to enter the fry as Rome was trying to balance science with the Bible but this sort of examination was popular at the time --

However, more, I as astounded to read that others, long before Bishop Ussher, came up with similar dates.

The Venerable Bede, 672/673 – 26 May 735, writing in about AD 723, had reckoned the dawn of humanity at 3952 BC, and more contemporary scholars such as:

Joseph Justus Scaliger, 1540 - 1609, reckoned (3949BC), was a Dutch religious leader and scholar, known for expanding the notion of classical history from Greek and ancient Roman history to include Persian, Babylonian, Jewish and ancient Egyptian history.

The astronomer Johannes Kepler, 1571 - 1630  reckoned (3992 BC) was a German mathematician, astronomer and astrologer. A key figure in the 17th century scientific revolution, he is best known for his eponymous laws of planetary motion, codified by later astronomers, based on his works Astronomia nova, Harmonices Mundi, and Epitome of Copernican Astronomy. These works also provided one of the foundations for Isaac Newton's theory of universal gravitation.

The great Isaac Newton, 25 December 1642 – 20 March 1727, an English physicist and mathematician reckoned (4000 BC)

News to me - they had all come to similar calculations.

http://www.bethinking.org/science-christianity/conflict-myths-bishop-ussher-and-the-date-of-creation.pdf
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2013, 03:11:06 PM »
Talk about role reversal - Wow, Mary's mother was something - she paled in front of no man regardless of class, wealth, prestige -

Bellamarie Congrats - you did it - wonderful - now you can share your photo finds - fabulous  - you bring up how Mary's mother is a key to Mary's future as a fossil hunter assuring she gets paid for her work and knowledge - Interesting is how the small amount of money they thought was a wind of wonders, paying off debts and buying the bits that made life liveable was so little compared to what Lord Henley and others were able to secure.

Can you just imagine the shock followed by horror and finally outrage as Elizabeth saw the beautiful specimen in the museum arranged incorrectly and dressed as in a circus - not only what she saw but realizing Lord Henley sold it to the museum with no forewarning when he made the arrangement with Mary and her mother.

Worse was as a women it was not like Elizabeth could immediately confront the situation and call on an army of supporters like a man could going to his club and raising a ruckus that may have even included a lawsuit. Instead Elizabeth had to contain her outrage and take tea at Fortnum's only sharing her outrage with Louise. Ouch - I bet all of us have at one time or another had to contain our feelings of not seen as important enough or worthy of an opinion - ouch ouch.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2013, 03:26:46 PM »
When the cup at Fortnum's is mentioned I did not realize the store was that old - sure enough it opened when Mason met Fortnum in 1705 -


The Link to Fortnum's - what a treat to spend time on their site - the history of the store is included.

http://www.fortnumandmason.com/c-7-magazine-fortnum-and-mason.aspx
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2013, 04:57:51 PM »
Barb, Wow!  Now Fortnum's is truly a high end store for shopping, dining and tea.  I could spend hours browsing that link.  I just may put a wicker hamper on my Christmas list.  Did you notice they use the Royal family in their ad.  Pictures bring everything more to life, and clearer understanding.  I am so glad we have the internet to find these wonderful links!

I was horrified when I read how they displayed the creature in the museum, nonetheless, Henley putting his name on it with absolutely no mention of Mary.  And, when Eliz tells Mary about it, very upset, all Mary can do is hold back her excitement just knowing her creature was on a display in the museum.  That sure opened her mother's eyes to what was to come!
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2013, 06:10:14 PM »
If you have not already the next time you visit London you just have to go in by the front door - it is like a childhood fantasy of what the scents are like in some exotic south sea trade ship - coffee, tea, chocolate, fruit flavored candy hit you and assail the senses like you would not believe - and the restaurant on the main level is one of the few affordable, nice, safe for a woman alone - stays open after store hours till midnight - to attend a show means such an early meal that I usually wait till after and walk over to Fortnum's for a nice hot affordable meal. Most restaurants are not serving late plus most I am not as comfortable dining alone. Now I can see the PBS shows on both Selfredges and the Paradise saying, it was all about making department stores woman friendly and the tradition carries on.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: November 10, 2013, 09:13:28 PM »
Bellamarie, you mention evolution. I'm not sure that Elizabeth had made the leap to evolution but "extinction" was certainly on her mind when she questioned Reverend Jones. The author has associated certain characters with historic perspectives that she wants to represent in the book. I'm sure that many people at the time thought as Rev. Jones. Though, it doesn't seem to me that Elizabeth would question HIM about the church's point of view. She had made up her mind quickly about "collector" Henry Hoste Henley, with his lack of information or even interest in the details about fossils; she wasn't going to engage him in conversation about them. I would have thought that she had made a similar assessment of Rev. Jones from his sermons. He didn't seem like someone who's opinion she would value.

Steph

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: November 11, 2013, 08:30:20 AM »
I loved Elizabeths outrage about the"Crocodile". As written, she is a very very forward type.. Mary Annings mother was truly remarkable. A woman with no background in finance, etc, she really made a difference in their life.
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JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: November 11, 2013, 08:47:43 AM »
I liked that Elizabeth was able to release her outrage to Louisa after discovering what had become of Mary Anning's croc,  Steph.  I started paying attention to Louisa after that... an excellent companion for Elizabeth, wasn't she?  Wondering if this is Tracy Chevalier's fiction, or if they really were close.

Barbara, thank you so much for the site on Fortnum's.   I showed your post to my husband and he asked where it is located.  He promises next time we cross the pond, we will go.  My youngest son still lives in London.  We'll probably go over early next year.

Another small detail regarding this particular trip to London.  When the Philpots visited the British Museum, on display was a fossil fish called a "dapedium", which Elizabeth had donated...on the label the collector read "Philpot"..."neatly sidestepping the question of my sex."   I would imagine it is still part of the Museum's collection - making the British Museum another stop the next time we visit London.

You might want to take a quick look at the the British Natural History Museum's main page on Fossils...Mary Anning is  prominently featured!

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: November 11, 2013, 10:11:44 AM »
Although Mary's mother, Molly, is supposed to have been the person in charge of what happens to their curies, I like her forthrightness and businesslike approach to Henry Hoste Henley.
Now Mary will be given credit for her finds.  And yes, Elizabeth was very important to the story as without the funding of the first dig at the site of an icthiosauras, much of this would not have happened.  IMHO!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: November 11, 2013, 11:46:41 AM »
Marcie, when Elizabeth is questioning "when" the fossils could have existed, and she makes the point of mentioning before the flood, and God creating something he thought a mistake, leads me to understand she is questioning, creation vs evolution.  She is pretty direct in her questions.  There are other points in these chapters, that in my opinion, TC is opening our minds to think about the life long argument. 

So now that Molly, Mary's mother is an active partner and decision maker in Mary's finds, do you get the feeling Elizabeth will become less involved?  I can see now the push and pull between Molly & Elizabeth.  Molly, realizes there is lots of money and recognition to be had from these fossils.  Elizabeth is more interested in having the world see them on display and giving Mary the recognition she is well deserved.  I can't wait to see where this goes.  Also, what are we to make of Mary becoming aware of her feelings for the opposite sex?  I had to crack up with her conversation with Fanny about seeing a boy/man's body part.  lolol   :o :o  Our Mary is growing up, and it did not surprise me Molly had to demand a chaperon for Mary's outings.

Ciao for now~
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: November 12, 2013, 02:51:59 AM »
Nice site showing the process of finding, cleaning, preparing fossils - the history they include only goes back to the late nineteenth century with no mention of any of the fossil hunters or collectors we are discovering as we research about this book but it is nice to know and have explanation for the process that a fossil we view in a museum goes through.

http://preparation.paleo.amnh.org/35/techniques-in-the-field
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Steph

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: November 12, 2013, 08:38:12 AM »
Yes , it was interesting who they picked as a chaperone.. Mary really did not like her..
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JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2013, 09:25:30 AM »
Fanny seems to appear out of the blue...at odd moments. In the church, cleaning up after the sermon...and then she happened to be crossing a path and overheard Elizabethventing her rage against Lord Henry - calling him "bloody idiot" etc...
and now she becomes Mary's chaperone on the beach.  As I recall, Mary didn't choose her, Steph....  but the geology professor, Mr. Buckland brought her from the inn where he was staying...to satisfy Molly Anning's concern for her daughter's reputation.  Fanny just happend to work in the kitchen at that inn...and the whole thing was his idea. He didn't know that Mary didn't like her.

I'm wondering whether Fanny is Tracy Chevalier's fiction...do you think she actually existed?

JoanP

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2013, 09:36:09 AM »
I'm still facinated by the annotation in Rev. Jones' Bible that Elizabeth noticed while Fanny was reading the passage on Genesis.  The one in which Bishop Ussher's calculation of the date of creation.  

On further investigation of Bishop Ussher's calculationsI found this:

"In the seventeenth century, in his great work, Dr. John Lightfoot, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge, and one of the most eminent Hebrew scholars of his time, declared, as the result of his most profound and exhaustive study of the Scriptures, that "heaven and earth, centre and circumference, were created all together, in the same instant, and clouds full of water," and that "this work took place and man was created by the Trinity on October 23, 4004 B.C., at nine o'clock in the morning." [/b] John Lightfoot (1602-1675), Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University was a contemporary of Ussher. Lightfoot published his calculations in 1644, before Ussher's were completed."

While it is interesting that both men, working independently, came to the 4004 B.C date, I really wanted to know when Mary's sea creature actually lived - as a point of comparison. Found this:

The early Jurassic period, ranging between 198 and 185 million years ago

My mind can't even conceive of time in this way!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2013, 11:17:43 AM »


This print shows the recovery of the first mosasaur fossils in 1780. Cuvier used the fossils to support his radical ideas on extinction.

Here is a good site online from Berkeley about those early scientists realizing extinction was part of the earth's history.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/history_08
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2013, 11:57:40 AM »
I think what fascinated me about Fanny is how when you have no opportunity to follow your own star and must work to exist where ever you are hired and how that affects your view on life as compared to Joseph who because of that initial sale and the urging of Elizabeth was able to follow a trade not only for better pay but a trade more in keeping with how he is.

And so if you have no opportunity to use your God given talents but can only use those talents that will earn dollars as Fanny I can see how you would have this un-named sour attitude along with jealousy. I am thinking Fanny is jealous of Mary probably because she sees Mary enjoying what she is doing even if it is so un-typical of the proper behavior and work skills for a women.

I wonder just how many young people today enjoy their work at these low skilled jobs like those who wait on you at a fast food counter - to me flipping the hamburgers requires some skill and thinking therefore, is a step up - but all the creativity is taken out of so many jobs -

Are we turning folks into Fanny's and then wonder why so many workers are disgruntle or showing their un-named feeling that they do not matter but are fodder in a job they take just for money so, they gravitate to shock and awe behavior in song language and on the internet -  There isn't a concerted national move that supports helping them see they could be a Joseph and there is no attitude, as Elizabeth showed when she helped those with money what they could do for Joseph -

Elizabeth had to convince both Mary, who earned the money and Molly, who negotiated the sum, who only saw how the money could make their current life less austere so that she was not looking at the future. Elizabeth helped them see the wisdom of furthering Joseph's talents and his dislike of fossil hunting so that they were willing to fund his future especially when they are living on the edge.

There are some companies that will still offer to pay for their employees higher education hoping for a better workforce including Home Depot but Congress and States are fighting now about funding eduction. Looks like many business owners want to keep a workforce with low expectations and low skills that they can pay low wages assuring greater profit for the investors. hmm what are they invested in - compared to the investment Mary and her mother were willing to make given their circumstances.

Another look at understanding the Fanny's of our world and why they are angry. They have no clue they are denying their God given talents just to survive by satisfying the needs of who ever has cash.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2013, 01:28:04 PM »
Barb, I agree with your feelings about how people feel disgruntled with low paying, low skilled jobs.  My fear is with the new Affordable Healthcare Act, it is only making less full time positions, less pay, higher insurance costs, which will only lead to more disgruntled people in the workforce, who are going to vent that anger in areas that could harm others or themselves. 

I tend to think business owners would want more for their workers, so they would be more productive, resulting in better profits for the company and better attitudes in the employees. We are in a state of affairs where the government is so involved, that it is pitting the employer against the employee.  Regardless of what type of skill you have, whether it be like Fanny in the kitchen, or myself at one point washing dishes in a restaurant, as long as you are considered worthy, and treated with respect, and know what you are doing seems important and meaningful to the company, I think you can find self worth in what you do.  I was a non certified computer teacher in a private Catholic elementary school for fifteen years.  I along with the other non certified positions, such as janitorial, secretarial, nurse, aides, Auxiliary clerk, etc., always was treated with dignity, respect and felt our position was as important as any certified teacher, until a new principal came in, and at the first faculty meeting separated the certified and non certified people, and treated the non certified with less importance, respect and dignity.  I could not work for someone so blatantly disrespectful. I resigned from my position at the end of the winter break.  At the end of the school year, 80% of the certified teachers left the school because they did not like how this principal treated everyone.  The enrollment went down, and the school is now needing to merge with area schools to continue to stay open.  This principal along with the powers that be, cut positions and wages and brought down the morale of the entire staff.  So I guess my point is no matter where you work, no matter what your position is, and even the pay, if you are treated by the company with dignity and respect, you don't mind knowing they are profiting from your performance.  That's how it's suppose to work. 

I'm not sure Fanny was jealous of Mary fossil hunting.  I think if anything Fanny wanted to be Mary's friend, and hence there is where the rift comes in.  Mary does not treat Fanny as her equal when she comes to chaperon, she watches her sit day after day bored, and even in the cold and wet rain and does not seem to have consideration enough to stop hunting with Mr. Buckland, so Fanny can get out of the horrible weather conditions and go inside to her own job.  It isn't until they share the moment of laughter, when Mr. Buckland goes to pee on the beach, they connect as if they could be friends.  Granted, maybe Mary does not have the social skills, to know how to be a friend to someone close to her own age because she has been secluded on the beach with her father, Joseph or alone all these years, until Eliz comes into her life.  I would like to see Fanny and Mary become friends, but I also feel sad for Fanny, having to spend her hours out there for the sake and selfishness of Mary and Mr. Buckland.  If I were Fanny I would resent Mary, just for that reason alone, and be justified in feeling that way.

I do sense Fanny is a fictional character, and have since the first time her name is mentioned.  She pops up in opportune times, yet seems insignificant so far to the story.

Ciao for now~ 
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: November 12, 2013, 05:06:40 PM »
Oh dear it is too easy for us to get into our political views isn't it - ah so - what will happen we can only guess and hope we have the wisdom to take care of the changes that occur regardless the choices. It is difficult when those we see as in a position of authority disappoint us and our exceptions - it is difficult today to embrace the challenge that all that happens is an opportunity for self examination and our own growth.

Thanks Bellamarie this was a good reminder to review some of the quotes that help me navigate what happens - hope they help you as much - It is like the quote about “ People often say that motivation doesn’t last. Well, neither does bathing — that’s why we recommend it daily."

Quote
What is "out there" in the world is created as a mirror for what is in our hearts and minds. What we feel, think and run away from will quickly reappear in front of us. (Mother Mary, Sydney)

We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are. (The Talmud)

When I point my finger at another, I have three fingers pointing back at me. (Unknown)  

Life sure takes work doesn't it to learn what we are here to learn.

I do think it was wise and admirable of Elizabeth to see the advantage for Joseph that meant his family living on the edge could and would be supportive of him and his future - Interesting that Tracy Chevalier includes this in her story - I wonder if she found through research that it is true - so far, I only read that Joseph was shy and stepped out of the picture.  Seems such an American attitude that I am surprised to read how someone in the middle class would encourage someone in the lower class to take the steps to the next class level - I see Elizabeth doing her part to help Mary get the attention for her finds that she deserves but do not see the same urging for her to step into the next class - Mary selling her finds does better her self when she purchased her own house. Maybe later in the story we learn that it was Elizabeth who suggests and urges her to buy property - we shall see - when reading most Brit centered stories I need to remind myself that class differences was as deep as race is for us in America.

I wonder who are Fanny's parents - I wonder if we learn that or if it is important as we continue to read the story.

Interesting isn't it how Mary relishes her outdoor work regardless the wind, cold and rain.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: November 12, 2013, 05:54:44 PM »
bellamarie, you are right that the fossils are raising lots of questions for Elizabeth. It doesn't seem that she has found an answer that satisfies her.

Thanks for the information, Joan, about Bishop Ussher and Dr. Lightfoot. All of their biblical research and calculations to pinpoint the date and exact hour of the creation of the world is interesting in the context of their time and understanding of the world. I did get a laugh, though, at mention of some recent work of fiction that says with a snicker that Lightfoot was a half hour off :-)

On Tracy Chevalier's Remarkable Creatures website, the only three people included in the historical figures section (in addition to Mary Anning) are: Elizabeth Philpot, William Buckland and Lt. Colonel Thomas James Birch. http://www.tchevalier.com/remarkablecreatures/background/historicalfigures/index.html

Fanny may be a composite of various people or someone the author created for the story. We first met Fanny in Chapter 3 where she seems to represent many of the poor people who live in the area, who are uneducated and fear what they don't understand. Fanny and Mary start out as friends but Mary tells us that "Fanny did not remain my friend though, no matter who many jewels I brought back for her from the beach. It weren't just that the Millers were suspicious of fossils, they were suspicious of me too, especially once I started  helping the Philpots, who people in town made fun of as the London ladies too peculiar even to get a Lyme man. Fanny would never come if I was going upon beach with Miss Elizabeth. She got more and more funny with me, making comments about Miss Elizabeth's bony face and Miss Margaret's silly turbans, and pointing out holes in my boots and clay under my nails. I began to wonder if she were my friend after all."

THis is what we know about Fanny's family: Fanny's father was a woodcutter who sold wood to the Annings. Her mother worked at the factory. The Millers were members of the same Congregationalist Chapel as the Annings.






Steph

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Re: Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2013, 08:33:56 AM »
I always thought of Fanny as fiction. Too too convenient in being there when needed. But I do suspect she conveys the attitude of most people of Marys age and class.. They truly did not understand Mary and  I think that The Philpotts baffled them.
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