Author Topic: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online  (Read 71735 times)

PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #440 on: February 23, 2014, 09:03:28 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell


Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.

The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule:

Part 6                   Feb. 22-28+

 Feb. 22-27}
     Chapter 51 TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE
     Chapter 52 SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW
     Chapter 53 UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS
     Chapter 54 MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED
     Chapter 55 AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS
     Chapter 56 "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"
     Chapter 57 BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX
 Feb. 28 ....
     Chapter 58 REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
     Chapter 59 MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
     Chapter 60  ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION



Some Things to Think About
Feb. 22-27 Chapters L1-LVII

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER LI.   TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE
Do you believe that “Troubles never come alone?”
At the very end of her conversation with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia has a moment of regret about giving up Roger.  “Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered, and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of ‘what would have been.’”  What do you think that tells you about Cynthia’s fate and future life?
Did you expect Osborne to die?
  
CHAPTER LII.  SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW
Why does Mrs. Gaskell make Osborne’s wife a Frenchwoman?
Is Squire Hamley’s grief realistically described?


CHAPTER LIII  UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS
Why does Squire Hamley have such a stereotyped picture of Aimée?  What is she really like?  Is that a stereotype too?
The squire couldn’t get enough of Aimée’s letters, and is touched by her appearance.  How can he think of sending her away?  Will she go?

CHAPTER LIV  MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED
In what ways is Molly’s worth discovered?  By whom?
There are two hospital nurses watching over Aimée, and a maid assigned to care for little Roger’s needs, plus his grandfather spending time with him.  What duties are left for Molly that will exhaust her so much?
How is Cynthia’s standing improved by her behavior during Molly’s illness?

CHAPTER LV   AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS

CHAPTER LVI  "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"

CHAPTER LVII   BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX


 
DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln,  
PatH
,  ADOANNIE

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #441 on: February 24, 2014, 09:05:42 AM »
What is Mrs. Gaskell really saying about stereotypes...and bias here? I thought that when he came face to face with Osborne's "French, Catholic wife - who had once been a servant"...all the stereotypes  would fall away and the squire would see her as an individual, the sweet young thing she is.  

But no.  He wants this baby...her baby - Osborne's baby  but hopes to send the undesirable mother back to France!  It helps that she came from across the channel.  Imagine if she was a London girl?
I thought this was an interesting turn of events.  Not many pages left for an explanation of his reaction.  I too am wondering if Roger will develop feelings for his brother's wife.  Then the Squire would have no choice but to keep her at Hamley Hall.

What of Molly then?  Could her illness get the better of her?  I have resisted the urge to read the final installment...and can understand why her readers are holding their breath to see what Mrs. Gaskell has planned for an ending.  I can't imagine the reaction to the news of her death before the final installment came out.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #442 on: February 24, 2014, 11:20:18 AM »
Oh JoanP., I can't even imagine Molly dying of her illness, if anything she seems to be getting better staying with Lady Harriet.  I would throw this book in the garbage if Molly were to die in the end, and not have her happily ever after with Roger, especially after Cynthia has Henderson.  Although, Molly being the generous, gracious person she is, I could see her giving Roger up to Aimee if they were to marry for the sake of the little boy.  Oh, I can see Roger doing his duty, and seeing it an honor in memory of his brother Osborne, who he loved and was so loyal to.  My heart took a huge leap just reading your possibility, of Molly dying.  That would be a tragic ending, with Mr. Gibson having to deal with such cruel, sadness.  Gaskell, could not do this to him or the readers!!!

Even though the Squire did seem to stereotype Aimee, I got the feeling he had gone a little soft on her, after Molly read the love letters from Aimee to Osborne.  Not to mention seeing her with the child. Yes, he is speaking as would be expected, for her to return to her homeland, but I also felt it is what I think he assumes, SHE would want to do, but since the baby is the heir to Hamley Hall, again he is acting on principle, and what would be expected of the child, to be with the Hamley family, so he could grow up with the Hamley's, and be taught all that he would need to know as heir. 

This gives me hope the Squire will have a change of heart....unless Gaskell resolves this situation with Aimee dying of a broken heart.

"In this case she only wished that the Squire could really feel that Aimée was not the encumbrance which he evidently considered her to be.

Not that he would have acknowledged the fact, if it had been put before him in plain words. He fought against the dim consciousness of what was in his mind; he spoke repeatedly of patience when no one but himself was impatient; he would often say that when she grew better she must not be allowed to leave the Hall until she was perfectly strong, when no one was even contemplating the remotest chance of her leavng her child, excepting only himself.

Molly once or twice asked her father if she might not speak to the Squire, and represent the hardship of sending her away—the improbability that she would consent to quit her boy, and so on; but Mr. Gibson only replied,—

"Wait quietly. Time enough when nature and circumstance have had their chance, and have failed."

I have not and will not read through to the end....I can barely stand having to wait to see how all ends, but there was so much to absorb in these chapters, I want to digest it, before the final installments.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #443 on: February 24, 2014, 12:57:48 PM »
Good for you, JoanP and Bellamarie, for having the self-control not to read ahead.  Yes, there is a lot to digest in these chapters, and a lot of twists and turns.

From the first time we saw him. Squire Hamley had very rigid ideas on who was good enough to marry his sons.  She had to have money, because the estate needed it, but she also had to be of good blood.  After all, the Hamley's had been landowners since King Alfred's time.  A Hamley bride must have suitable lineage--Molly, for instance, respectable though she is, isn't good enough on this count, as well as being poor.  So what does he get?  A peasant, a nursemaid, who also is one of the inferior, effete, scheming French people.

No wonder he's upset, but look at his feelings for his grandson.  He doesn't care at all that little Roger is half inferior peasant blood, the boy can do no wrong, and is the most precious thing in the world.  Will this attitude leak back to Roger's mother?

Aimée also fits into some of the underlying themes of the book, and I'm not sure what the end message is.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #444 on: February 24, 2014, 03:04:32 PM »
PatH.,  Yes, you are so right about the reasons why it was important for Osborne, the heir to the estate, to marry for the reasons you mentioned, but, here we are.....Osborne is dead, little "Osborne" as the Squre decided, they would call him, is of inferior, peasant, French blood, and Roger is not likely to marry anyone to fit the expectations.  
  
I guess we can see this book has become more about changes, acceptance, breaking rules, regret, and moving ahead into a new modernization.  Much like today's world, the coming generations are doing away with customs, traditions, values, and expectations, that their prior generation held so important, and dear to their hearts.  Gaskell may have been a woman ahead of her times, to see it all happening, and writing about it as far back as this book.  The railway is coming.....speeding ahead into the future of technology, and a generation deciding for themselves what will determine their happiness.  

I never have felt Gaskell stayed within the true English, 1800/1900's manners, etiquette, and respect, as generations before them, from the beginning of the story, so as far as Hamley Hall, and family lineage goes, casa ra sa ra.....

The Squire is in complete love with little Osborne, and I sense he will do anything to keep him with him, even if it means having Aimee live with them.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #445 on: February 24, 2014, 05:11:39 PM »
I am a little sorry about reading to the end of the book. But all your posts make me realize again the intensity of the drama playing itself out in these last chapters. I've returned the film after watching it a second time. There really is a lot of good theater in the story. Bellamarie, you've found some fine scenes for us. The greatest wonder is how the author can possibly put an ending to all the drama. A happy ending. There are indications that she was uncertain herself. What a favor she did her readers by leaving it up to them, and your posts prove it. Keep it up. I'm really enjoying your speculations.

No book like it, for laughter and tears.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #446 on: February 24, 2014, 06:55:19 PM »
Jonathon, you are so right!  Laughter and tears.  There have been times especially where the Squire is concerned I truly felt like my heart was breaking for him.  He truly stole my heart early on, even when his wife was alive.  He seems the most human, with his emotions just right out there, even though he thinks he is disguising them well.

I don't think I have ever read a more humorous book, with so much drama.  Who would have thought at this point in the book, I would actually not be so frustrated with Clare or Cynthia.  They too are just human, with all their flaws.  I am not at all forgiving of some of the cruel and hurtful things they have done to such kind, caring, loving people, but I do understand them.  As for Mr. Preston, I am hoping Gaskell gives us more clarity, and does not think Roger mentioning Preston is off working in another town is enough.  Will all my questions be answered?  I have a feeling that is not going to happen, especially because Gaskell died before she could finish the story.  Yes, I know she had discussed her intentions with her publisher or editor, but who is to say, had she lived, she would not have prolonged the book and changed her mind.  We will never know.....but what I do ask, and wonder, is where exactly in the book did Gaskell die?  Does anyone know?

Oh well......there is plenty of time to discuss that when the end is read.  For now, I'm still digesting these chapters and am enjoying the Squire with little Osborne. 

Jonathon, I am a bit sorry you read ahead too, it would have been fun uncovering these pages together.  I fear many of our readers completed the book, and felt they could not post due to spoilers.  JoanP., I am glad to know at least you and I are still in suspense, waiting to see how this all ties up and ends.   ???

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #447 on: February 24, 2014, 07:42:17 PM »
We're each hoping for answers before this novel comes to a close.  Such a long novel...so many unresolved issues before the novelist died.  This is hard to think about, but isn't that the way it will be with  our lives.
I'm so hoping that Mrs. Gaskell lived long enough to address the Squire's continued dislike of his son's wife - the mother of his precious grandson.

Quote
The squire couldn’t get enough of Aimée’s letters, and is touched by her appearance.  How can he think of sending her away?  Will she go?
I've been thinking of of this question and those letters, Pat.  The squire couldn't read those letters - written in French, right? He needed Molly to translate them, before they meant something to him.

It's a language barrier more than anything else, isn't it?  It took Molly, Dr. G and then Roger to translate for each of them - too stressful for both Aimée and the squire.  What will happen when the time comes for Roger to return to Africa?  The squire thinks ..(hopes?) she'll be gone back to France by then...leaving grandson with him.  How will Mrs. Gaskell resolve this? 

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #448 on: February 25, 2014, 01:53:24 AM »
Bella:Thanks for quoting the long passage from Chapter 50 where Mr. Gibson confronts Cynthia. Her method for dealing with criticism and defending herself is to turn tha tables and blame others: Mollly for mentioning the affair with Preston and Mr. Gibson for accusing her before she has a chance to tell her side of the story. So that gives her a reason for not telling Mr. Gibson what has gone on and leaving the room, giving him the silent treatment. Mrs. Gibson takes up Cynthia's cause and blames her husband for not loving Cynthia as much as he loves his own child Molly.  He does love her almost as much as he loves Molly which is commendable. He knows however that he has spoken too harshly, I think becoming aware that milder words might have yielded a better opportunity to communicate with Cynthia.

But in the next chapter Cynthia relents and tells Mr. Gibson what happened. She wants to have him as a friend and she loves him better than she does Roger. She can't marry Roger because he is too upright for her limited notion of virtue, and one thing for sure: she doesn't want to ask his forgiveness for her faults. She is proud and haughty and not about to confess and knows she is not likely or able to change to fit his high standards. She wants admiration and acceptance and not a recounting of her shortcomings.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #449 on: February 25, 2014, 08:12:51 AM »
I think we have to give Cynthia credit for recognizing her shortcomings, owning up to them, and ACTING before she hurts someone...thinking of.Mr. Preston and Roger.  (She makes sure Mr. Henderson know her well enough...doesn't 't put her on a pedestal - and accepts her as she is.)
Today we wouldn't think too much about such behavior - but when you consider the time in which she lived...(the time in which Mrs. Glaskell is writing), this was quite a brave thing to do- especially for someone who NEEDS the approval of others.

Who is Glaskell's real heroine here?

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #450 on: February 25, 2014, 10:39:44 AM »
Yes, Lucy, I think Cynthia's best way of dealing with any of her faults, is to deflect, blame others, and run away from confrontation.  Mr. Gibson did feel he could have been softer with her, but then again, she does respect him for caring enough about her to be tough on her, something NO ONE has dared do.  I loved the little funny way he gave her the money for her marriage.  That little banter was so touching.  It truly did show how much the two of them love each other. 

Another funny time was when Mr. Gibson was teasing and said this to Molly:

"Think of us on Thursday," said he. "I declare I don't know which of her three lovers she mayn't summon at the very last moment to act the part of bridegroom. I'm determined to be surprised at nothing; and will give her away with a good grace to whoever comes."

I laughed out loud reading this, Mr. Gibson has found the humor in all of Cynthia's whims and wants. 

JoanP.,
Quote
"I think we have to give Cynthia credit for recognizing her shortcomings, owning up to them, and ACTING before she hurts someone...thinking of.Mr. Preston and Roger.  (She makes sure Mr. Henderson know her well enough...doesn't 't put her on a pedestal - and accepts her as she is.)

Oh dear, I felt Cynthia hurt Preston and Roger greatly, and didn't give it a second thought, to it.  I'm not so sure she owned up to anything, it was more of an excuse for her bad behavior.  As for Henderson, yes, he knows her flaws, and loves her in spite of them.  Cynthia may be happy now that she is marrying Henderson, and so it is easy to see her in a more caring light, but she left a lot of scars on the battlefield, as far as I am concerned, so while I am happy, she found her happily ever after, I still can't forget how she got there.

I did like how it was very important to Henderson to have Molly and Mr. Gibson's acceptance and approval of him.  He obviously sees how much these two mean to Cynthia. 

Another funny quip from Mr. Gibson:

The next time Mr. Gibson found Molly alone, he began,—"Well! and how do you like the new relation that is to be?"

"It's difficult to say. I think he's very nice in all his bits, but—rather dull on the whole."

"I think him perfection," said Mr. Gibson, to Molly's surprise; but in an instant afterwards she saw that he had been speaking  ironically.

He went on. "I don't wonder she preferred him to Roger Hamley. Such scents! such gloves! And then his hair and his cravat!" 

"Now, papa, you're not fair. He is a great deal more than that. One could see that he had very good feeling; and he is very handsome, and very much attached to her."

"So was Roger. However, I must confess I shall be only too glad to have her married. She's a girl who'll always have some love-affair on hand, and will always be apt to slip through a man's fingers if he doesn't look sharp; as I was saying to Roger—"


Gaskell was on a roll with Mr. Gibson throughout these chapters.  I think in doing so, she made me actually begin to forgive and like Cynthia, in spite of her flaws and behavior. 

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #451 on: February 25, 2014, 10:45:43 AM »
I'm sticking with my admiration for Cynthia...she could have married Roger or Mr. Preston and basked in their admiration - but didn't.  I felt Cynthia grew from her mistakes, her character developed...which is how I would judge a person.

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #452 on: February 25, 2014, 11:31:41 AM »
JoanP, yes. Giving up Roger, although ultimately in her best interests since she could never live up to his standards (which he would probably see in time) may have been the "one heroic act" of which Cynthia thought she might be capable.

I'm struck by how often books set in this time period show someone having a prolonged serious illness because they have "exerted themselves" too much. It seems that in lieu of scientific medical explanations, the surmise is that over-exertion causes ill health.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #453 on: February 25, 2014, 11:38:25 AM »
Yes, over-exertion and emotional stress too.  Do you think there is something to the theory that such weakness slows recovery from other illnesses? Aimee over-exerted and continues to be under emotional stress - though maybe a bit less, now that Roger is home.

PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #454 on: February 25, 2014, 12:16:19 PM »
And Molly overexerted herself taking care of Aimée, which led to her lengthy illness.  I still want to know what her duties were, given that there were also two nurses, plus someone to care for little Roger.  I suspect that nursing sick people at that time involved endless care about a lot of little details, treatments, and nourishments that we would now think would have no effect on the course of the illness.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #455 on: February 25, 2014, 12:44:47 PM »
I suspect the emotional, mental, physical stress, and sleep deprived, had much to do with Molly getting ill.  Her days are normally, maybe a walk outside, sitting in the house reading and getting plenty of rest and sleep.  Just being in the Hamley house, making sure the Squire ate, and helping care for Aimee, along with all the worry about what will come of little Osborne and Aimee, and yes how this will effect Roger had to be exhausting.  Not to mention, carrying along Cynthia's troubles.  For such a young and delicate girl, that had to be a lot to deal with.  But it seems she is on the mend now that Cynthia is getting married, and she is being taken care of by Lady Harriet.

I'm not sure Cynthia would have given Roger up so easily, had Mr. Henderson not been in the picture.  She said she would go off to be a governess, but that was her last resort.  She, like her mother, wants the attention from men, and so she would have chosen one of them, even if it would have been, poor red-haired Coxe.  I say, in jest.   :D



“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #456 on: February 25, 2014, 01:16:26 PM »
I think Mr. Gibson is the eyes and ears of the book, who sets the moral standard. If he can understand and forgive Cynthia, we can do the same. Happily, Mrs. Gaskell doesn't set out to reform Cynthia but leaves her as she is, a little wiser, but the same perplexing character that she is.

PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #457 on: February 25, 2014, 02:11:24 PM »
I guess we can see this book has become more about changes, acceptance, breaking rules, regret, and moving ahead into a new modernization.  Much like today's world, the coming generations are doing away with customs, traditions, values, and expectations, that their prior generation held so important, and dear to their hearts.  

You're so right, Bellamarie.  There's a strong undercurrent of social evolution and change, and a new definition of Englishness.

Squire Hamley represents the old original Anglo-Saxon influence.  The Cumnors are the changing nature of the aristocracy.  Roger is turning into the model of the new Englishman--vigorous physically, and sound mentally.  Furthermore, he is a scientist, and the notion of the importance of science was growing.  Darwin's The Origin of Species came out three years before this book was written, and its ideas were being vigorously debated.  People were carrying Darwin's ideas over into a general notion of improvement and change.

So where do Aimée and little Roger, the new Hamley heir, fit in?  Is Gaskell saying that the old, outdated Saxon influence will be diluted and dwindle away?  Or is she saying that it will reinvent itself and improve, by adding another influence (as it had already done with the Normans)?

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #458 on: February 25, 2014, 02:24:34 PM »
Gaskell toys with everyone's health. Even Roger in Africa takes a fall when he's not in a fever. His little nephew comes down with scarlet fever. Will he be the next to die? What purpose will Molly's illness serve. Do you really think of Molly as a delicate girl, Bellamarie? She may be introspective and passive emotionally, but otherwise she is quite robust: climbs cherry trees, takes steps two at a time, and is reckless with Miss Browning's china.

Thanks for finding the glorious humor in the book. And for contributing some of your own. I found it so charming to read that you,

'so while I am happy, she (Cynthia) found her happily ever after, I still can't forget how she got there.'



Can we think of the author as being just as happy as we? Now that she has Cynthia out of the way. That's one problem solved. Marriage will protect Cynthia from herself. But does she have a lot of might have beens to live with?

How will the squire ever take it, if his grandson should die? First his wife. Then the gamekeeper. Then his first born. All have touched him so deeply. Actually Squire Hamley is, and always has been, a soft touch. I have no doubt that Aimee will win his heart. He has been living in the past with all his predjudices. He reminds me of the elderly man I met the other day who is still carrying a lot of hate for his WWII enemies. The same with the squire. Get Napoleon.


Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #459 on: February 25, 2014, 02:57:36 PM »
I just read your post, Pat, and it got me thinking. It also reminded me of something Marcie posted when we started out:

"Pre-Victorian English country society in the 1820s, the time period in which Wives and Daughters is set, was multi-layered and organized by intricate and distinct social groupings.

This basic hierarchical system consisted of the upper-, the middle- and the working-classes -- and each of these categories had its own internal hierarchical relationships as well. The upper classes ruled through a system of inherited aristocracy with complex rules, including rules of address. Everyone knew their place and fulfilled through their speech, dress, manner and aspirations."

Hasn't that been well illustrated throughout the text? Such a great awareness of ones 'place'. With one exception. The governess. Isn't it understandable that she would some times wonder about where she stood in the lineup.  And then, Lady Harriet. She liked Mr Preston, until he got too familiar. Didn't show proper deference.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #460 on: February 25, 2014, 06:41:02 PM »
Jonathon
Quote
How will the squire ever take it, if his grandson should die?

Oh my, I have not gotten to the chapter that reveals the grandson gets sick.  Please don't even tell me I have to imagine that little guy not being around to soften the heart of the Squire.  He could not take another loss, and I don't think I could either. 

PatH.,
Quote
Squire Hamley represents the old original Anglo-Saxon influence.  The Cumnors are the changing nature of the aristocracy.  Roger is turning into the model of the new Englishman--vigorous physically, and sound mentally.  Furthermore, he is a scientist, and the notion of the importance of science was growing.  Darwin's The Origin of Species came out three years before this book was written, and its ideas were being vigorously debated.  People were carrying Darwin's ideas over into a general notion of improvement and change.

You have put this all together to eloquently, and so very perfectly, and I couldn't have said it better myself.  I just absolutely love your knowledge and insight!

Yes, Jonathon, I guess I do see Molly delicate.  Yes, she does do the things you mentioned, and I love that about her, but I see her delicate by nature.  She captured my heart in the first chapters when she so selflessly cared for Mrs. Hamley, and her innocence, loyalty, love, caring, concern for others is just so admirable.  I will say she has more reserve, than any of the rest of the characters in this book.  Her patience is mighty, and her forgiveness is limitless.

Lucy
Quote
I think Mr. Gibson is the eyes and ears of the book, who sets the moral standard. If he can understand and forgive Cynthia, we can do the same. Happily, Mrs. Gaskell doesn't set out to reform Cynthia but leaves her as she is, a little wiser, but the same perplexing character that she is.

This is the best argument I have heard, for reason enough, to forgive Cynthia's bad, selfish behavior.  I love Mr. Gibson, and if he can turn it all into humor, yet reprimand her when she needed it, and yes, forgive her, I can too!  But NOT until I finish the book, and make sure she is deserving of it......I'm like Mr. Gibson, at any turn Cynthia can shock us, like this statement, he makes to Molly:

"You look like Marius sitting amidst the ruins of Carthage, my dear! What's the matter? Why have you got on that wobegone face? This marriage isn't broken off, is it? Though nothing would surprise me where the beautiful Cynthia is concerned." 

Another laugh out loud moment for me!   ;D

Ciao for now~

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #461 on: February 26, 2014, 04:33:06 PM »
'and yes, forgive her, I can too!  But NOT until I finish the book, and make sure she is deserving of it......'

Of course we have to forgive her, Bellamarie. She's had such a hard time of it. In her own words, near the end of chapter 50:

'...mamma still looks upon me as an "encumbrance,"...but I have been an excumbrance to her all my life. I am getting very much into despair about everything, Molly. I shall try my luck in Russia. I have heard of a situation as English governess at Moscow.'

Just by chance, while watch the closing  Olympic ceremonies in Russia and being made aware of Russian literature, I picked up Anna Karenina. The opening sentence, well, the second, had me practically crying for Cynthia:

'Everything was upset in the Oblonskys' house. The wife had discovered an intrigue between her husband and their former French governess, and declared that she would not continue to live under the same roof with him.

Surely that can't be the situation Cynthia has heard about. Surely Gaskell will not allow her heroine to fall into that trap.

Let's forgive Clare as well. She has had and is having a hard time, which can be understood in her exasperated exclamation, near the end of Chapter 55:

"Well, after this tirade - really rather indelicate, I must say - I have done. I will neither help nor hinder any love affairs of you two young ladies."

Have you noticed how Molly blooms into health when Roger enters the room?

I have a lot of sympathy for Clare. Still remembering with sorrow how she caused her first husband's death by sending him out into the rain to fetch her a muffin. A five mile walk.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #462 on: February 26, 2014, 05:22:46 PM »
Oh Jonathon,  I giggle at your post, once again, you and I read the same words, but hear a different meaning....

'...mamma still looks upon me as an "encumbrance,"...but I have been an excumbrance to her all my life. I am getting very much into despair about everything, Molly. I shall try my luck in Russia. I have heard of a situation as English governess at Moscow.'

When I read this, it reminded me of Scarlet O'Hara, she did have a bit of dramatics about her as well.  I saw this as another of Cynthia's ploys for sympathy.  As if she could, or would settle as a governess, when the attention of men is her most needed thing in life.  From the time she was 16 yrs old and learned she could use her beauty, to get Preston to give her money for bustles, bonnets and bows, til she was able to flirt with Osborne, Roger, and Henderson, and even poor red-haired Coxe, not to mention wile Mr. Gibson. I could never see her as a governess.  No, Cynthia, has the flare for dramatics, and I was not fooled by her little speech.  Again, I found the humor, imagining her down on her knees, with the sweetest of smiles.  

And as for Clare's statement.....she was just clearly fed up, because she realized what a mess Cynthia had made of everything, and was throwing her hands up.  She desperately wanted Cynthia to accept Henderson's proposal, so much so she jumped the gun and wrote the letter behind her daughter's back.

So while Gaskell may tie up all the loose ends, with a nice pretty bow, and the happily ever afters, are for some if not all, (haven't finished it yet to know if all)  I am not so ready to take these declarations out of context, and forgive their selfish motives and behaviors.  They hurt a lot of people along the way, to get what they wanted, and there is NO apology or regret I fear.  

I'll reserve the right to change my mind once I have finished the book....afterall, Cynthia/Gaskell sure did change their minds, plenty of times throughout the book.    ;D

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #463 on: February 26, 2014, 07:13:37 PM »
As soon as Clare makes this statement, "Well, after this tirade - really rather indelicate, I must say - I have done. I will neither help nor hinder any love affairs of you two young ladies."
it is humorous and comical that she goes upstairs and writes a letter to Mrs. Kirkpatrick describing Cynthia's "unfortunate entanglement," and "delicate sense of honour," and asserting that Cynthia is indifferent to all men excluding Mr. Henderson.  After the latter does propose, she has to writie another hurried letter telling Mrs. Kirkpatrick that what she has said about Roger should be kept private.  Henderson has already written the Kirkpatrick's about his engagement.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #464 on: February 27, 2014, 08:01:33 AM »
Quote
"This basic hierarchical system consisted of the upper-, the middle- and the working-classes -- and each of these categories had its own internal hierarchical relationships as well. The upper classes ruled through a system of inherited aristocracy with complex rules, including rules of address. Everyone knew their place and fulfilled through their speech, dress, manner and aspirations."

Can't help but wonder how Mrs. Glaskell's work was received by the different classes...especially  the " inherited aristocracy with its complex rules."  
Did they find her rather progressive views, her subtle (and not so subtle) critique of Victorian attitudes, shocking?  Threatening, even?  Or did they recognize the reality that change is coming?
Were her novels considered avant garde or do you think there were others sounding the same themes?  

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #465 on: February 27, 2014, 08:12:59 AM »
Molly is ill, her father orders rest  -
Quote
..."Haven't you got a trashy novel or two for her?"
Dr. Gibson to Mrs. G (assuming that's all she reads.) :D
Any idea what the "trashy novels" of the time he might have been referring to?

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #466 on: February 27, 2014, 09:04:36 AM »
Molly's illness and all this business of "invalid ways" puzzles and annoys me.  I don't think she is ill in any traditional sense, just depressed and unsure of how to act upon Roger's return.  Clare says she has "nervous fever," and that "nerves are mere fancy."  This is in Chapter 54, Molly Gibson's Worth, when Cynthia suddenly returns from London because she wants to be with Molly who is ill.
Her mother thinks she is overdoing her concern, that it would be better to stay in London and hope for a proposal from Mr. Henderson and not risk offending the Kirkpatricks, who have approved her action and invited her back as soon as she can leave Molly.  I think this chapter marks a turning point in our opinion of Cynthia.  Mr. Gibson is impressed and says, "You're a good girl, Cynthia."
From this point on we are more sympathetic to Cynthia and put her misconduct into the past. She's going to leave the scene anyway, so there is no reason to harbor ill feelings toward her.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #467 on: February 27, 2014, 09:53:02 AM »
JoanP.,
Quote
Can't help but wonder how Mrs. Glaskell's work was received by the different classes...especially  the " inherited aristocracy with its complex rules." 
Did they find her rather progressive views, her subtle (and not so subtle) critique of Victorian attitudes, shocking?  Threatening, even?  Or did they recognize the reality that change is coming?
Were her novels considered avant garde or do you think there were others sounding the same themes?
   

I sense Gaskell is not the first writer, to show there is a new wave coming to England.  The train system is on the cusp, the people seem excited, although much like ourselves today, it had to be a little bit of wonderment and apprehension, to see changes coming, taking England into a new society.  Those who have been comfortable with their aristocracies, and have had generations of rules of etiquette, must have been a bit shocked, at the way the young people were acting.

Aren't we here in the present day, in the world watching these very changes taking place with the economy, technology, the new laws with same sex marriage, gays in the military, open living together before marriage, children out of wedlock higher ever in history, sexually explicit music and videos, scaling down our military, human trafficking, internet/texting becoming the source of communication, religion under attack, executive orders over ruling our constitution, etc., etc.  Yes, I fear we are feeling much like England did back, then....concerned if the new changes will  denigrate our society, traditions, morals and values, generations have fought so hard to keep in tact.  As a baby boomer, I was pretty uncomfortable, and uncertain with where Gloria Steinem, Woodstock, Dr. Spock, Roe vs Wade, and the number draft, would take our society.  While many will say it's the best that could happen, I still today ask myself if it wasn't the beginning of the end, of a more cultured, disciplined, moral, valued society.  I think of Cynthia, needing and wanting constant attention from the men, and it reminds me of the "selfies" today, who crave attention so much so they are constantly taking pictures of themselves, putting them on open social networks, for the sake of feeling important, yet putting their reputation and lives in danger.   

Sorry, I guess it really hit me how as far back as this novel, changes were coming to world society, some good, and some not so good.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #468 on: February 27, 2014, 01:28:26 PM »
Molly's illness and all this business of "invalid ways" puzzles and annoys me.  I don't think she is ill in any traditional sense, just depressed and unsure of how to act upon Roger's return.  Clare says she has "nervous fever," and that "nerves are mere fancy."
It seems to be common in books of this time for women to react this way to emotional stress.  Women were seen as being weaker creatures than men, apt to break down under strain.  They also need protection: when Mr. Gibson is trying to get Cynthia to tell him all, he says "I asked you to tell me the full truth, in order that until he [Roger] comes, and has a legal right to protect you, I may do so."  When Cynthia says she has broken off with Roger, he says "But, my dear Cynthia,--how soon Roger will be back--a tower of strength." and "When you come to think calmly you will be glad of the stay and support of such a husband as Roger."

I wonder if Mrs. Gaskell believed that? She doesn't seem to have lived an overprotected life herself.  In addition to raising seven children and performing all the duties of a minister's wife, she had an active social life among prominent people of the day, and did a lot of work in social welfare and activism.

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #469 on: February 27, 2014, 03:08:59 PM »
'the husband as a tower of strength...did Mrs Gaskell believe that?'

Good question, Pat. I don't think so. Perhaps it will serve as evidence of the avant garde in the novel. Can we find one tower of strength among the husbands already on the scene. The squire depended almost totally on his wife. The only thing Lady Cumnor gets from her husband is gossip. The events in the novel coincided with important social and political reforms as well as with the transforming influence of scientific discoveries, but I can't help feeling that Wives and Daughters was read with the same pleasure that they got from theater such as Sheridan's The School for Scandal, and Goldsmith's She Stoops to Conquer.

I was made aware of this when I read that sad comment from Lucy, about Cynthia:

'She's going to leave the scene anyway, so there is no reason to harbor ill feelings toward her.'

Hasn't she spent as much time in soul searching as flirting? 'Coming out' or self-discovery in Hollingford has too much of the timeless about them to be avant garde.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #470 on: February 27, 2014, 11:19:48 PM »
The avant-garde pushes the boundaries of what is accepted as the norm or the status quo, primarily in the cultural realm. The avant-garde is considered by some to be a hallmark of modernism, as distinct from postmodernism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde

After reading this article, I do see where Gakell was Avant-garde writing this story.  She is indeed taking English tradition, politics and technology to a new modernized level.  She mentions the train coming, the Whig party, and has tradition and rules for the younger generation in transition.  For her to have the insight, into what was coming back then, it is clearly genius in my opinion.

Something stuck in my mind in one of your last posts Jonathon,
Quote
I have a lot of sympathy for Clare. Still remembering with sorrow how she caused her first husband's death by sending him out into the rain to fetch her a muffin. A five mile walk.

Hmmm....I remember something about Mr. Kirkpatrick walking to get Clare a muffin, but I don't remember it mentioning it is what caused his death.  Oh my heavens, don't tell me this wretched woman was the cause of her husband's death.  I just may have to jump inside this book and wring her neck!  And yet, you can find sympathy and forgive her if this is true???  tsk tsk......

Okay, I can not wait any longer to finish these chapters, so, I am off to read the final chapters, so I will be ready for tomorrow's discussion.  Oh how I hope Molly & Roger get there happily ever after, and the Squire does not disappoint me where Aimee is concerned.  Cynthia has her Henderson, and dear Clare should be happy, as happy as possible, sense she does seem to find ways to be miserable all by herself. (the devil mad me say that)  ;D   ;D  

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #471 on: February 28, 2014, 02:26:48 AM »
So we don't lose the questions from the previous chapters, I'll post the discussion questions for the last section of the book here:


The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell


Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.

The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule:

Feb. 28++ ....
     Chapter 58  REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
     Chapter 59  MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
     Chapter 60  ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
     Concluding Remarks by the editor of Cornhill Magazine


Some Things to Think About
Feb. 28++ Chapters LVIII-LX + Concluding Remarks (Cornhill Magazine editor

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER LVIII.   REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
When they meet again what are the impressions of Molly and Roger of each other?
What are some tensions between them?
Did you find some of the passages in this chapter humorous?

CHAPTER LIX.    MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
What does Mrs. Goodenough think about Molly's proposed visit to Hamley Hall?
How does Molly act toward Roger?
What do you think of the way that Mrs. Gaskell reveals Molly's and Roger's feelings in this chapter?

CHAPTER LX      ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
What good outcome resulted from little Osborne's illness?
What things struck you in the conversation between Roger and Molly's father?
Do you think that Roger is being inconstant loving Molly now instead of Cynthia?
Are you satisfied with how the novel ends?
What do you think of all of the major characters?

Concluding Remarks by the editor of Cornhill Magazine)
Did reading the brief notes left by Mrs. Gaskell and the information from the editor help you reach more closure with the novel?
Did you learn anything you didn't expect?
 


 
DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln,  
PatH
,  ADOANNIE

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #472 on: February 28, 2014, 02:33:10 AM »
We've come to the last chapters of the book. Maybe we can take the weekend to talk about these chapters or about any aspect of the book, or the film if you've seen it.

Roger has returned from his expedition and learned that Cynthia is engaged to another man. When they meet again what are the impressions of Molly and Roger of each other?

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #473 on: February 28, 2014, 07:06:46 AM »
I smiled at your mention of the film in your post, Marcie.  We just received the first disc from Netflix yesterday, popped the popcorn and settled in to watch it last evening.  Imagine my dismay to find the DVD shattered - as if someone had taken a hammer to it!  
They say they will send another copy, but...I really wanted to see if Cynthia is portrayed as badly as Bella sees her...or just clueless as to the feelings of others.  She loves Molly- really didn't mean to hurt her.  Thinks highly of Roger, but knows he's too good for her. (He is.) She doesn't want to hurt him further when he comes home - knowing he will probably fall in love with her all over again if he sees her.  I guess it isn't easy being so beautiful. Men fall madly in love without really knowing you...

Though Roger's appearance has changed during the six months he's been away (bearded, bronzed, more muscular... her "friend 's" voice hadn't changed.  When he first came home, he saw her as an invalid...but now at the Towers, he hardly recognizes her... Had her illness really changed her that much?

"He began to feel that admiring deference which most young men experience when conversing with a pretty girl...in a manner very different to his old familiar friendliness."

Does she really  look so different? Are his altered feelings towards her due to her appearance?  

ANNIE

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #474 on: February 28, 2014, 09:29:26 AM »
In answer to the question about whether the  editor's notes cleared up much, no, it didn't, but the movie does a good job with the ending! Ha,ha,ha!

But when I watched it, not knowing that the book had no ending, I felt that Mr. Preston's problems had been left hanging in the air.  Now I know why!  My online copy does have the Cornhill editor's remarks.  Aren't those Dicken's remarks?  
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #475 on: February 28, 2014, 10:02:54 AM »
Ooops.  I goofed, thought we had another day on this section.  You all got ahead of me in answering the questions I had thought up, but there were some minor points I was curious about.  What do you think is the significance of Roger coming back from Africa looking bigger, stronger, almost taller, more impressive?

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #476 on: February 28, 2014, 11:14:48 AM »
Pat, sorry I jumped ahead. Of course we can talk about the previous chapters too.

I think that the contrast of Roger and Osborne has been well done by Mrs. Gaskell. She dwells a lot on their common love for each other. We don't see them pitted against each other though they are actually so different. Osborne becomes ill and wastes away. Roger contracts an illness in "dangerous" Africa but returns bigger and stronger.

Joan, it may be that Molly's illness gave her a thinner, paler appearance but I think that her changed look had also to do with the fine gown and hairdo and her being so serene surrounded by all of the "society" people. She probably looks more like a young lady and less like the teenager he befriended. Having been jilted by Cynthia also probably made Roger look at Molly with new eyes and appreciate the contrast between her and Cynthia that was always there.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #477 on: February 28, 2014, 11:51:22 AM »
I have finished the book, and read the concluding remarks, I am just awestruck!  But before I begin discussing these final chapters, I want to share a statement, which gives me justification, in seeing Cynthia, as the author Mrs. Gaskell intended to portray her, and hopefully help with this,  
JoanP.,
Quote
.I really wanted to see if Cynthia is portrayed as badly as Bella sees her...or just clueless as to the feelings of others.

pg. 600 Concluding Remarks

Cynthia is one of the most difficult characters which have ever been attempted in our time.

Perfect art always obscures the difficulties it overcomes; and it is not till we try to follow the processes by which such a character as the Tito of Romola is created, for instance, that we begin to understand what a marvellous piece of work it is. To be sure, Cynthia was not so difficult, nor is it nearly so great a creation as that splendid achievement of art and thought—of the rarest art, of the profoundest thought. But she also belongs to the kind of characters which are conceived only in minds large, clear, harmonious and just, and which can be portrayed fully and without flaw only by hands obedient to the finest motions of the mind. Viewed in this light, Cynthia is a more important piece of work even than Molly, delicately as she is drawn, and true and harmonious as that picture is also.

I found the painting which is mentioned above.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bacchus+and+ariadne+painting&tbm=isch&imgil=I5BmwY_kSseBcM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTJky_U6XDQqtWzppEGgsSxdhnZ5sJ0vhsnkeHptnTJEmhU6kC5%253B1000%253B835%253BbVnEb8zXfd0ZPM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.oilpaintingsgallery.com%25252Fpaintings%25252FBacchus-and-Ariadne.asp&source=iu&usg=__bf1zK2Lfm2EVRkQw0g6rvtTLPFg%3D&sa=X&ei=sakQU_66F9DyyAHAroHoCA&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ9QEwBQ&biw=1366&bih=640#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=I5BmwY_kSseBcM%253A%3BbVnEb8zXfd0ZPM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.oilpaintingsgallery.com%252Fdisrobed%252FBacchus-and-Ariadne.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.oilpaintingsgallery.com%252Fpaintings%252FBacchus-and-Ariadne.asp%3B1000%3B835

"He paints a betrothal picture for Tito and Romola, representing them as Bacchus and Ariadne"

Romola is the female protagonist through whom the surrounding world is evaluated. Contemporary and modern critics have questioned the likelihood of the level of scholarship attributed to women such as Romola in Renaissance Italy, and have pointed to the possible role of the title character as a Victorian critique of the constrained lot of women in that period, as well as in Eliot's contemporary period. Felicia Bonaparte speculated about the title character as a "thoroughly contemporary figure, the Victorian intellectual struggling to resolve the dilemmas of the modern age". In a similar vein, the story also deals with the dilemma of where the duty of obedience for women ends and the duty of resistance begins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romola

This is very interesting to read, after researching and finding this article, I sense Wives and Daughters was inspired by George Elliot's Romola.

Mary Anne Evans (22 November 1819 – 22 December 1880; alternatively "Mary Ann" or "Marian"), known by her pen name George Eliot, was an English novelist, journalist, translator and one of the leading writers of the Victorian era. She is the author of seven novels, including Adam Bede (1859), The Mill on the Floss (1860), Silas Marner (1861), Middlemarch (1871–72), and Daniel Deronda (1876), most of them set in provincial England and known for their realism and psychological insight.

She used a male pen name, she said, to ensure her works would be taken seriously. Female authors were published under their own names during Eliot's life, but she wanted to escape the stereotype of women only writing lighthearted romances. An additional factor in her use of a pen name may have been a desire to shield her private life from public scrutiny and to prevent scandals attending her relationship with the married George Henry Lewes, with whom she lived for over 20 years.[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Eliot


http://www.academia.edu/311871/George_Eliots_Romola_A_Historical_Novel_Rather_Different_in_Character_

I don't think it too much of a leap, at least for me, to assume Gaskell was familiar with Elliot's novels, and the two of them shared the same writing style, themes, and  avant-garde for their times.

I also feel these comments clarify many of the feelings I expressed throughout this story:

pg. 599 While you read any one of the last three books we have named, you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other

Now as for Cynthia, I think this shows while she seemed to dominate the story, Gaskell fully intended to concentrate on Molly and Roger in her final chapters, as it should be.

pg. 599 Of what was to happen to Cynthia after her marriage the author was not heard to say much; and, indeed, it does not seem that anything needs to be added.

I am contented with how Gaskell wrapped up Cynthia and Henderson. I am ready to focus on the two characters Molly and Roger, I was so hoping would have their happy ending.  I'm not sure forgiving Cynthia or seeing her differently than the author intended her is necessary.  She is who she is, no regrets, no apologies, and she has a husband who accepts her for just the person she is......that is enough for me.

JoanP., I am so sorry to hear your dvd was destroyed. I would caution you, to keep an open mind when viewing the movie, as we know, many a books made into a movie can loose much of a person's character the author intended it to be.  I can name many books I recently read, then watched the movie and was thoroughly disappointed in how characters were unrecognizable in the movie. Such as the movie The Help, a very serious story dealing with prejudice, civil rights, abuse, and societal snobbery, was made into a comedy movie.  I just about walked out of the theater, because it was a disgrace to the author, to minimize her great work.

My apologies this is so lengthy, I got so intrigued in researching and wanted to finish with Cynthia, as far as I am concerned and Mrs. Gaskell, before discussing these wonderful last chapters!  Gakell did NOT disappoint for sure!

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #478 on: February 28, 2014, 12:49:41 PM »
Annie, I've just finished the last three chapters Mrs. Gaskell wrote - not yet read the editor's note.  (read somewhere that Mrs. Glaskell died mid-sentence as she was working on the ending.  Wish I could find that note!)

Though several of her novels were published by Dickens in his Household Words, the editor of Cornhill was Frederick Greenwood, editor of Cornhill - a rival publication of Dickens.  Here's an overview of her life with more on this editor's words pust out by The Gaskell Society in the UK

I'll need to spend time later this afternoon on the Editor's Concluding Notes ...cannot comment until then.  Thank you for delving into them, Bella.  I do see your reference to page 599...not sure what you are referring to.    You discourage me from the hope that we'll learn much more from them, Annie.  I've read somewhere that the BBC wrote its own ending, so yes, will keep that in mind when/if Netflix sends another DVD!

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #479 on: February 28, 2014, 01:03:46 PM »
Quote
What do you think is the significance of Roger coming back from Africa looking bigger, stronger, almost taller, more impressive?

Pat, I did a second take at the idea that Roger had become taller in the 6 months he'd been away.  He's 24, isn't he? Don't really think he was taller.  This was Dr. Gibson's reaction to how much he'd changed.  I guess he'd bulked up ....meaning he'd put on more muscle...as you say, was more imposing...impressive in appearance.  I confess I was waiting for Cynthia to get a look at him when he returned...maybe change her mind about him.  But they never did lay eyes on one another, did they?  Roger hardly came to the Gibson house at all...even after Cynthia was gone.  Was it because Molly was sick?

Quote
"She probably looks more like a young lady and less like the teenager he befriended."
  Yes, that's probably it, Marcie.  I was having a hard time accepting that his new interest in Molly was basked solely on looks and not on their old friendship built on admiration and respect.  Without her fine gown and fancy hairdo, would he still be seeing the same old Molly he used to know?