Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15

Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll. We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.

Discussion Schedule:    April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2    April 21-27  Chapters 3 - 6

Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.

April 28 - May 5 Chapter 7 - 9

Chapter 7:  
 1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
 2. What is a dormouse?
 3. Carroll originally didn't have an answer to the riddle of the raven and the writing desk, but many have been suggested since,  Do you have one?
 4. What do you think of the surreal version of time pictured here?
 5. Who are Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie?
 6. This chapter is full of puns; do you have any favorites?
 7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad.  Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
 8. How does Alice finally get into the garden?

Chapter 8:
 1. How do the suits and values of the cards fit their occupations and stations in life?
 2. “Off with their head” is the Queen of Hearts’ reaction to everything.  How come any of them are left alive?
 3. What do you think of the croquet game?  Could it actually be possible to play it?
 4. Could one behead a bodiless creature?

Chapter 9:
  1. Does everything have a moral?
  2. How does the King undo the Queen’s harshness?
  3. What is a mock turtle?  A gryphon?
  4. The mock turtle’s story is full of puns.  Can you identify them?
  5. What could logically happen on the twelfth day?

You can read the novel online

Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

marcie,  I don't think the average person could or would understand the math, so just imagine the complexity all this must have seemed to the children of the Liddells ages.  I read this story was not intended for small children their age.  I can see why.

I have to share with you all, today my grand daughter Kenzie came to pick up her two younger sisters who I daycare after school.  She just completed her last Freshman exam in college and now is excited to start her Sophmore year living with her sorority sisters in the house on campus at the end of summer.  She and I share the love of reading and have written a children's book together.....or rather I wrote the book and she illustrated it for me.  Anyways, she saw my Alice In Wonderland Annotated Definitive copy sitting by my laptop and asked what that was, she said she has never seen an Alice In Wonderland book like that before.  Mind you Alice is her favorite childhood movie.  I was telling her about the annotations and our online discussion.  She was amazed at the knowledge we have turned up about the characters, math riddles, etc.  She and I share books all the time back and forth since her years in high school, so of course she asked if she could borrow it once I was done with it.  She said she loves learning all about the authors and the mindset of their writing.  I told her, well get ready because this one is going to blow your mind!  So now I have my three yr. old grand daughter Zoey wanting me to read her, "Nonnie's Wonderland book", and my eighteen yr. old grand daughter wanting to borrow it.  What have we started?

marcie, Here is a better image of the dormouse's sleepy life.

[marcie]

Bellamarie, What a wonderful bond you have with your grand daughters. And how great that you've created a book together with the eldest.

Thanks for that photo. That's more like the sleepy dormouse in the story!

It's great that Alice can be read on many levels. The Liddel girls enjoyed the story so much that Alice L. asked for it to be written down. I wouldn't have caught on to most of the items in the annotated version so I can enjoy just reading it on my own and then get more out of it with the notes and everyone's comments here.

[Jonathan]

Are there any statistics about how many adult readers of this book have felt themselves going mad trying to make sense of the wonders and the  riddles? And yet one has to assume that the author's, the Oxford professor's intent, was to stimulate young minds into examining and questioning everything. Goodness knows what he's positing with that ridiculous riddle about the raven and the writing desk. I admire the sanity in Alice's answer. They are alike. She doesn't know much about either. Just like Mom's answer. Neither is a bicycle.

Keep in mind. Mathematicians like elegant solutions to their wild propositions.

[bellamarie]

[bellamarie]

I went searching for a theory, and ran out of time before I could post and modify, so my apologies for posting this pic twice. (I am learning resizing so bare with me.) When I first looked at this picture of the Cheshire cat a week or so ago, I made notations before reading this chapter today, about how this picture of the argument of executing the Cheshire Cat, reminded me of this picture of Pilate arguing whether to execute Jesus.



It got me to thinking about how the Cheshire Cat could exist without his body, and it made me see the Cheshire Cat similar to God, reigning over everyone, and how it would not be possible for the Cat to be beheaded/killed since he can vanish and reappear, just as God could never be killed since he is of Spirit.  So I went searching for something to substantiate my theory, if it could be possible Carroll being a Reverend, is using this in a religious sense.  I found this:
http://www.scientistsincongregations.org/media/Dawson_mindNotes.docx

"Although we find it difficult to envision a bodiless existence, that is precisely what Christians traditionally attribute to God (e.g., based on Biblical passages such as "God is a Spirit"  John 4:14)

The "mind-body problem" is most often associated with Rene Decartes but has long and varied history (going back at least to Plato).  The central issue is how the activity of the mind arises from the brain. The idea that the mind needs a body in which to exist and properly function is called "embodiment."  Thus we speak of embodiment cognition.  Note:  Decartes is probably best known for his often quoted, "I think, therefore, I am."  ("cogito ergo sum" in Latin).

After reading this it reminded me of this...

John 18:37 ASV
American Standard Version
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end have I been born, and to this end am I come into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

The people are gathered in the Alice picture, much like the people were gathered in the Jesus picture.  And the argument as to whether the Cheshire Cat deserves to be beheaded, is similar to the argument as to whether Jesus has done any wrong to be executed.  The executioner in Alice, like Pilate, defers the decision to someone else....they ask Alice, and Pilate asks the people to decide.  The Duchess is in prison and they must bring her out, just like they must bring Barabas out of prison by the request of the people.  This was a bit mind boggling to me putting this all together and seeing, it is possible Carroll drew from the Crucifixion, to create the Cheshire Cat's execution.  A stretch.....maybe.  But I am convinced it is a possibility.  

Ciao for now~  

p.s. Again I am sorry for the oversized pics....I really must learn to how to resize when the link has no width/height in it.

[bluebird24]

http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/species/common-dormouse

[PatH]

Thanks for the dormouse picture, bluebird.  That's the cutest one of all.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I continue to be amazed at the detailed information you are diging up.  I'd love to know what Carroll actually had in mind here with the Cheshire cat.  Is this deliberate, or unconscious?  We'll never know.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  I am beginning to scare myself..... I may be getting into Carroll's head more than I want to.  I had a poem published a few years back in The International Library of Poetry, called Wandering Mind. I have always been open to just let my mind wander to places I never know, maybe that's why this story has me searching to uncover as much as I can. I see or read something and a thought pops into my head, and I go on a search to see if there is any basis or possible evidence, and when I find it I am surprised!  Typing in Google's search bar..."similarities of the Cheshire Cat's execution and Jesus"  was just a shot in the dark, and it took a few links and I found that one.  I thought, Eureka!  There it is! I have to admit it gave me goose bumps.  

As much as Alice wants to hold on to logical thinking, I have come to the conclusion to just accept the story itself is all illogical, but strangely enough, Carroll had logic when creating. Ughhhh...did I just sound like the Mad Hatter? 

During the croquet game, Wonderland completely reversed the conventional above ground world so that inanimate objects rule the land and use living creatures as tools.  Hedgehogs are the croquet balls, flamingos are the mallets, a deck of cards represent soldiers, children, Kings and Queens etc.  But what I find ironic is that ultimately they defer to Alice to mediate the conflict of the Cheshire Cat's fate, which indicates they see her with some authority.  Also when Alice stands up to the Queen:

"And who are these?"  said the Queen, pointing to the three gardeners who were lying round the rose tree; for, you see, as they were lying on their faces, and the pattern on their backs was the same as the rest of the pack, she could not tell whether they were gardeners, or soldiers, or courtiers, or three of her own children.

"How should I know?"  said Alice, surprised at her own courage.  "It's no business of mine."  The Queen turned crimson with fury, and, after glaring at her for a moment like a wild beast, began screaming "Off with her head!"  Off with__"  
"Nonsense!"  said Alice, very loudly and decidedly, and the Queen was silent.

Where did Alice get this newfound strength to stand up to the bully Queen?  Some how she did not feel the least bit threatened at this point.  Is it because she saw them all as inanimate objects?

But then later she backs off:

The Cheshire cat asks her, "How do you like the Queen?" said the Cat in a low voice.  "Not at all,"  said Alice: "she's so extremely__"  Just then shen noticed that the Queen was close behind her, listening: so she went on "__likely to win, that it's hardly worth while finishing the game."  The Queen smiled and passed on.

Why did Alice back off, and not stand her ground with the Queen here?  In searching, and forgive me for not having the link, I found this explanation:

"Ultimately, Alice only has to wake up to destroy Wonderland and all of it's inhabitants.  However, she remains "uneasy" as she plays croquet with the Queen, since a dispute might bring an early end to her dream and prohibit Alice from ever figuring out the point of Wonderland."

I thought about this theory, and it makes so much sense to me, because I have had dreams where I am in the middle of chaos, or something very exciting is about to happen, and I wake up.  I am so disappointed because I did not get to know how it ends, that I actually have fallen back to sleep and picked up where the dream has left off.  Now, I ask myself, "Did I actually wake up fully, or was I still in the dream?  Or did I wake up, go back to sleep with the thought of where the dream was at, and then subconsciously, finish the dream the way I wanted it to end?  Dreams are very complex.....I always have believed dreams can be interpreted into something that is in your real life.  I read books on dreams when I first got married and moved away from my small hometown, to a bigger busy city life, and found myself always having dreams where I was in danger, and could not make myself wake up to save myself.  It really bothered me to the point I began to unset my hubby's alarm clock so he would oversleep, so I would not be alone and have those dreams where I couldn't wake up.  Yes, I told him years later I did it.     I began researching dreams.  Ironically, after I had my first child, I never experienced one of those scary dreams again.  Maybe her crying in the night kept me from dreaming that deep.  Maybe having someone in the house, knowing my hubby left for work helped, or the new puppy that barked a lot in the morning.  Who knows?  Maybe Freud?    

Oh goodness, it's off to read The Mock Turtle's Story.....Heaven only knows what we will find here.

Ciao now for~  

[marcie]

Jonathan, I think I'm probably somewhat mad to begin with so the madness of ALICE IN WONDERLAND doesn't have an awful affect on me. It's funny, because in the actual world I'm pretty skeptical but when reading fantasy I seem to just go with the flow. 

Bellamarie, all of the information you're finding is intriguing. I love the illustration of the cheshire cat overlooking the gathering.

Bluebird, I agree with Pat that the photo you found is the best one yet of a dormouse. It looks right out of Wonderland.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, as the Mad Hatter might reply to your question, "say what you mean and mean what you say!"  I'm actually beginning to see much of the humor in the madness.....so does that mean I may be going mad?            LOLOL

I'm with Marcie, I may be somewhat mad to begin with.  I can stop the madness anytime I want by stop reading the book, just as Alice can stop the madness anytime she wants, by waking up.  Like Alice, I think I will stick it out til the end and see where the madness leads me.

[Jonathan]

Fabulous, Bellamarie. What a rich mind you have. What an endless prospect you are finding in this book. Will you ever find your way back? Or show us the way back? Waking up doesn't cut it any more. It may be too late. We have tasted the forbidden fruit. Eaten from the tree of knowledge.

The religious and philosophical ramifications you find are amazing. Your exegesis of the text is so much livelier than the annotations. Bringing God into the picture is overwhelming. And it has put an extraordinary thought into my head. I remember writing an essay on Cogito ergo sum in my early college days. Descartes was very happy with his discovery, no doubt. But it has left me in a state of wonder being reminded that God also said: I AM. Without thinking? Aren't we puny creatures presumptous with our flattering intellects?

[Jonathan]

My cat has taken to grinning at me. It leaves me feeling uncomfortable.

[PatH]

Can you still see its body?

[bellamarie]

Jonathan,  " I remember writing an essay on Cogito ergo sum in my early college days. Descartes was very happy with his discovery, no doubt. But it has left me in a state of wonder being reminded that God also said: I AM. Without thinking? Aren't we puny creatures presumptuous with our flattering intellects?"

Well now, I am not sure if I was more shocked at finding my treasures, or impressed at finding out you, my friend did an essay on Cogito ergo sum and are aware of Descartes!  I think if we are willing to keep our minds open to anything, we are going to always find something amazing.

Jonathan,  "We have tasted the forbidden fruit. Eaten from the tree of knowledge."     

Yes, indeed we have, and I am grinning like the Cheshire Cat, at your calling us puny creatures.  As for your grinning cat,  be careful, cats have a tendency to feel a bit Godly!   tee hee 

I must say I am just a bit disappointed the Mock Turtle chapter does not seem to be as intriguing as the last couple of chapters.  Mock turtle soup, being a fake and no turtle actually in it seems ridiculous to even bother using the word turtle to describe it.  Alice does seem to like the Mock turtle and Gryphon, and is having a nice chat with them, until of course the silliness returns. 

The Duchess seems just a bit to close for comfort where Alice is concerned.  And her sharp chin poking into Alice's shoulder made me laugh.  Can you just see Alice wanting to give her a push off?  I noticed once the Queen comes along she dismisses the Duchess, and continues to play the game of croquet with Alice, only to give up since there no longer is anyone left, after the Queen has decided to behead everyone.  It was nice to hear the King reversed the Queen's order and not have anyone actually beheaded.  So who really is in control here, the King or the Queen?  Does the King just allow the Queen to think she is in control?  Typical male, just keeping the peace?  Does Carroll show here, that he must remain in control of his story by giving the King the ultimate control?   

Ciao for now~ 

[bellamarie]

         

Not sure what happened to my picture I posted below the Cheshire Cat, of Pilate deciding on Jesus' execution. When looking at each picture it makes me wonder if possibly Carroll, being a reverend, could have been drawing from Jesus' Crucifixion, when he created the Cheshire Cat's execution story. He certainly has shown how he takes from other stories,events, plays, lullabies, poems etc., in creating his characters and plots.  One can only wonder.

Ciao for now~

[bluebird24]

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs7/i/2005/241/9/6/Azo__the_Blue_Gryphon____1999_by_caramitten.jpg

[PatH]

That's a magnificent gryphon, bluebird, thanks for finding it.

[marcie]

That gryphon is pretty fierce looking, bluebird. I'm enjoying the eccentric characters of the mock turtle and the gryphon. The puns are lots of fun. I can just see the girls figuring them out and laughing at them. When the Mock Turtle tells Alice not to speak until he's finished his story, I imagine that Lewis Carroll probably told them the same thing when he was relating Alice in Wonderland. All of the details are so imaginative, such as having the turtle pause so long after the beginning sentence and Alice nearly giving up at that point and telling him thank you for the story.

I think that the picture that Carroll creates of the Duchess who sticks so close to Alice and finds morals in everything is also really funny. Especially since the morals don't usually apply to the object. I needed to read the notes in the Annotated version to point out that Alice goes from animal to vegetable to mineral when she is trying to classify "mustard" after the Duchess says that "flamingoes and mustard both bite. And the moral of that is 'Birds of a feather flock together.'"

[PatH]

Did you notice that the gryphon has a working class accent?  I'm not sure why.  It was more reasonable in the workmen helping the lizard Bill go down the chimney, and reviving him afterward.

[PatH]

So, after making fun of the moralizing songs the Liddell sisters knew, now Carroll is laughing at their lesson plans.  I can imagine their glee.  And one hour fewer of lessons each day until it's down to zero, with the Mock Turtle neatly sidestepping what happens next.

[marcie]

Yes, Pat, one hour fewer of lessons until the day off on the 11th day and then (as the notes say) negative numbers??

I was wondering about the gryphon's accent. I was going to call it a working class accent but noticed that he DID go to school. It was  not until the Education Act of 1870, also known as the "Forster Act", that England started the modern system of education. This not only gave rise to a national system of state education but also assured the existence of a dual system - voluntary denominational schools and nondenominational state schools.

[PatH]

Here's a recipe for mock turtle soup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_turtle_soup

I wonder about the Mock Turtle's plaintive remark "Once, I was a real turtle."

[marcie]

Pat, I thought that his remark was cute, as if mock turtles start out as turtles.

I'm not very adventuresome when it comes to food. That soup recipe does not sound at all appetizing to me 

[PatH]

I thought it sounded pretty nasty.  There were more appealing recipes involving beef, tomatoes, and spices, but this looked like it was probably closest to the original recipe.

[bellamarie]

I enjoyed the Gryphon and the Mock turtle, they both seemed to be the friendliest ones Alice has encountered, other than the Cheshire Cat so far.  The subjects they mention and Alice's responses, made me laugh:

"Yes, we went to school in the sea, though you mayn't believe it__"
"I never said I didn't! interrupted Alice.  (She gets a bit feisty here.)
"You did," said the Mock Turtle.  (A verbal trap, referencing something she didn't say.)
"Hold your tongue!"  added the Gryphon, before Alice could speak again.  The Mock Turtle went on.

"We had the best of educations__in fact, we went to school every day__"
"I've been to a day-school, too," said Alice.  "You needn't be so proud as all that."  (She really is trying to prove she is educated as well.)
"With extras?"  asked the Mock Turtle, a little anxiously.  "Yes,"  said Alice:  "we learned French and music."  "And washing?"  said the Mock Turtle.  "Certainly not!"  said Alice indignantly.
"Ah!  Then yours wasn't a really good school,"  said the Mock Turtle in a tone of great relief.  "Now, at ours, they had, at the end of the bill, 'French, music, and washing __ extra.'" (The Mock Turtle seems pleased with himself, he found something Alice didn't learn.)

(The phrase "French, music and washing__ extra" often appeared on boarding-school bills.  It meant, of course, that there was an extra charge for French, and music, and for having one's laundry done by the school.)  from annotations

Then this made me laugh:

"You couldn't have wanted it much,"  said Alice; "living at the bottom of the sea."  "I couldn't afford to learn it."  said the Mock Turtle, with a sigh.  "I only took the regular course."  "What was that?"  inquired Alice.

Subjects mentioned:  
Reeling, Writhing, branches of Arithmetic_Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision
Mysterying, Stretching, and Fainting of Coils.  
Laughing and Grief, Seaography
Drawling  (The "Drawling-master" who came once a week to teach "Drawling, Stretching, and Fainting in Coils" is a reference to non other than the art critic John Ruskin.  Ruskin came once a week to the Liddell home to teach drawing, sketching, and painting in oils to the children.)

So many play on words in this chapter.  

I can only imagine the Liddell girls getting excited to see Carroll bring in these subjects they were familiar with especially the Drawling, since Alice, her brother Henry, and her younger sister Victoria inherited their father's talent for art.

Then when Alice asks about what happens on the twelfth day, she has puzzled them and they change the subject.  Again, I see Carroll is showing that you need to spend some time on lessons, but like his earlier poem, don't let them take up your entire days.  I think it's his way of letting the Liddell children to take time for fun and fantasy.

Ciao for now~

p.s.  I would spell check this post normally, but with all the play on words I can only imagine all the errors it will attempt to correct!  

[bluebird24]

This is how the queen will scare people. "Off with his head!' "Off with her head!" The queen will not scare the cheshire cat.

[bluebird24]

I like the croquet game.

[PatH]

I like the croquet game too.  I wonder how you tell which hedgehog is yours when it wanders off.

[bellamarie]

Just curious, are we reading ONLY Alice's Adventures in Wonderland?  (Which has twelve chapters.)

My annotated definitive copy has Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found There , and also has, The Wasp in the Wig (A "Suppressed" Episode of Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found There)

[bellamarie]

I am so excited, I forgot a couple of weeks ago I happened to check my Direct TV movie list and guess what I recorded on my DVR?  Alice's Adventures in Wonderland!   Since we are near the end of this book, I am going to sit back and watch it tonight.  It will be interesting to see if Disney added or changed much, to make the movie.  First time reading the story and this will be my first time seeing the movie!

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Lucky you, bellamarie!  I saw it so long ago I remember almost nothing about it, except that the caterpillar was very impressive with his deep-voiced who are you?

To answer your question, the original plan was to read just Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.  Everything is open to negotiation, but I think doing more would overlap with the next discussion.

[marcie]

bellamarie, I enjoyed all of the puns in this chapter too. Bluebird, I don't know the rules of croquet so I was just amused by the hedgehogs rolling and unrolling and hurrying away.

Bellamarie, which version of ALICE did you record? All of the adaptations are listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Films_and_television_programmes_based_on_Alice_in_Wonderland

[bellamarie]

Marcie,  I watched this version:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_in_Wonderland_(1951_film)

Alice in Wonderland is a 1951 British-American animated fantasy comedy-adventure film produced by Walt Disney Productions and based primarily on Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland with a few additional elements from Through the Looking-Glass. The 13th in the Walt Disney Animated Classics series, the film was released in New York City and London on July 26, 1951. The film features the voices of Kathryn Beaumont (who later voiced Wendy Darling in the 1953 Disney film Peter Pan) as Alice, and Ed Wynn as the Mad Hatter. The theme song, "Alice in Wonderland", has since become a jazz standard.

The interesting thing is, I followed along in my book, and some parts were exact and then others were different, with parts of Through The Looking Glass in it.  (Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum).  Alice's first words in the movie after her sister has told her to kindly pay attention to her History lesson, about the Archbishop of Canterbury agreeing to meet with William, to offer him the crown." are:  I'm sorry, but how can one possibly pay attention to a book with no pictures in it?  Her sister responds, "My dear child there are many good books in this world without pictures."  Alice, "In this world perhaps, but in my world the books would be nothing but pictures." Her sister replies, "Your world?  What nonsense."  Alice, "Nonsense, that's it Dinah.  If I had a world of my own everything would be nonsense, nothing would be what it is because everything would be what it isn't, and contrary wise, what it is, it wouldn't be and what it wouldn't be, it would.  Dinah, meows and Alice says to Dinah, "You see in my world  you wouldn't say, meow, you would say, "Yes, Miss Alice."  Dinah meows again, and Alice says, "Oh but you would, you'd be just like people Dinah, and all the other animals too."  Alice then sings, "In A World Of My Own."  She ends with. "Because my world would be a wonderland."


I liked the animated movie, and could see why children would like it.  I have another version I will also watch that is not animated.  Anxious to see how different this one will be from our story.  I am glad I read our story first, before watching the movie.  The whole unbirthday was cute, but obviously not in our story.  I am assuming it took the place of the time always being 6:00 p.m., since it says there are 364 unbirthdays, referring to nonsensical time.

Ciao for now~

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  I am fine with reading just Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.  If I understand correctly, Through the Looking Glass, is Alice's, sister's version of what she was told from Alice about her adventure.  I of course have never read it, so I may continue on with it myself.

I found a link that is Alice's copy of the actual book Carroll wrote and gave to her.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/ttp/alice/accessible/introduction.html

The original book was only 91 pages long.  



  

[marcie]

Bellamarie, I know I've seen the Disney version but don't remember all of the details. That's a great introduction to the wonderland story.

I do remember the smoke-ring blowing caterpillar and the "Very happy Unbirthday" song.

Thanks very much for the link to the original written version of the story with Carroll's own illustrations. It took him two years to write down the story that he told during the afternoon outing. Notes say that he added a few things to the oral story, including some from stories that he had told the children on other days.

[PatH]

The annotated book has a number of comments about differences between the original version and the final, published one--mostly changes for the better.

Now, with the quadrille, start in on another round of puns, spoofs of songs the sisters knew, and fantastical actions.

[bellamarie]

marcie, Yes, I read Carroll changed and omitted from his original story where family names were concerned.  I am sure he personalized it much more for the Liddell girls.

The ending in the movie was very interesting.  Different from our story, yet similar.  I will share later.  My three year old granddaughter Zoey was watching this one when she came today and seemed to like it very much.

[bellamarie]

The annotations says:  The quadrille, a kind of square dance in five figures, was one of the most difficult of the ballroom dances fashionable at the time Carroll wrote his tale.  The Liddell children had been taught the dance by a private tutor.
"Lobster Quadrille" could be an intended play on "Lancers Quadrille," a walking square dance for eight to sixteen couples that are enormously popular in English ballrooms a the time Carroll wrote his Alice books.

When I was reading this it made me smile because it brought back the years my hubby and I took dance lessons.  We were quite good at line dancing, two-step, and even jitter bug, but when it came to switching partners at our square dance lessons, we were lost. Not to mention you had to dress the part and those can-can skirts were just not made for me.  I never felt comfortable dancing with other men, although some had a very strong lead, I was worried of stepping on their toes.  I felt my confidence was strongest when I was with my hubby.  We joined the Country Kickers, and the Eagles which at the time was jammed packed with couples of all ages. Now a cowgirl hat and a cute pair of boots with a vest, I could enjoy wearing!  We danced at least five nights a week going all over to local dance clubs.  The best people in the world, best dance instructors, and most of all the best times we ever had!  Country dancing has faded out, but we can still cut a rug! We actually met at a dance nightclub in 1970, and we will always have the desire to dance.  LOL

Alice wasn't comfortable with the Lobster Quadrille, and was glad when it was over.  I suppose, "every now and then treading on her toes when they passed too close, and waving their fore-paws to mark the time," probably had something to do with it.  I like how she said, "Thank you, it's a very interesting dance to watch,"  said Alice, feeling very glad that it was over at last; "and I do so like that curious song about the whiting."

She stops herself before finishing the word "dinner", learning from her previous mistakes of mentioning eating animals.  I see Alice is growing/maturing in this adventure?

Ciao for now~

[bluebird24]

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/c/carroll/lewis/