Author Topic: Greater Journey, The by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online  (Read 68163 times)

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: August 15, 2014, 12:48:02 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
 
"Magnifique! "In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review    
                                 Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4 
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6-  Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13
Week 7-  Aug. 25 - 31 ~ Part III/ Chapter 14, Epilogue


Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb  Intervew (Books TV)  ; David McCullough-Charlie Rose;   Biography - David McCullough; Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre

Some Topics for Discussion
Aug. 18 - 24

Part III ~  Chapter 12 ~ The Farragut
1. Were you surprised that Augustus Saint-Gaudens' submission for a statue of Charles Sumner was rejected?  Are you curious to know who won the competition and the controversy surrounding the choice?

2.  What did you learn of Saint-Gaudens and his work on the statue of the Civil War Admiral Farragut?    What was significant about this statue? (Does this chapter seem to be narrated by Augusta Saint-Gaudens, the sculptor's wife?)

3. Gus Saint-Gaudens' Farragut was said to have been influenced by Donatello's St. George he saw in Florence.  Can you find it?

4. The American artists, John Singer Sargent and Gus Saint-Gaudens were said to have admired one another and socialized in Paris.  The American colony was not that large.  Was Mary Cassatt part of their circle of friends? 

5. How was the Farragut statue received on both sides of the Atlantic - compared to  Saint-Gaudens' Adams Memorial? Was the name Stanford White familiar to you before his work with Saint-Gaudens on the pedestal of this statue?


Part III ~ Chapter 13.   Genius in Abundance
1. Who are the "geniuses" of whom McCullough writes in this chapter?

2.  Which of the American painters distinguished themselves in Paris after the Prussian War?

3.  What did the Americans, Mary Cassatt and John Singer Sargent have in common?  How were they different?

4. How do these two famous paintings of John Singer Sargent compare?  El Jaleo     and Daughters of Edward Darley Boit  Sargent became obsessed with doing a portrait of Mme. Virginia Gatreau  - Parisian beauty born in New Orleans. Did he succeed?  How was it received?

5.  What was the purpose of the 1889 Exposition in Paris? Were you surprised at the public's response to the just completed Eiffel Tower?



Discussion Leaders:  JoanPPatH  BarbJoanK,   Marcie


JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: August 15, 2014, 12:50:20 PM »
That would have been Elihu Washburne and his staff, Ella.  I wonder how many of the legation stayed behind with him?  How brave of him to keep up his diary throughout.  And he was ill too.  

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: August 15, 2014, 02:16:42 PM »
Seems to me the impatience for the commune was not too dissimilar to Watts Los Angeles 1965 and like Ferguson until the officialdom yesterday, showed solidarity with the people and sent away the SWAT teams with their war arms.

There were so many influences that are hard for us to relate to - The poor used to be able to turn to the church for protection and assistance - not only was the church under siege by those, like Victor Hugo, who wanted a change in government and they did not want a resurrection of a monarchy that included as part of the ruling body the church, but like the police in Ferguson, the church denied their association with the people and was instrumental in the downfall of the poor leading up to these events. Since many were not citizens they really needed the protection that the Cathedrals offered in the past as a place of safe haven. With none of the traditional safeties available and no direction but only feeling oppressed it is no wonder they stormed and raised the level of chaos and destruction. Too bad the beautiful buildings of Paris became the target of their frustration and oppression but when things are at that level there is no rational only destroy destroy destroy.

Do not have the quote correct but Dumas said something to the affect - give the workers of Paris a match and they will set fire to France. This from Dumas 50 years earlier.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: August 15, 2014, 02:30:23 PM »
The author must have been delighted to find Washburne's journal, and made splendid use of it to get him around this dreadful event of the Paris Commune. Paris has a history of violence. Didn't we read about it almost immediately with the revolution of 1830, with 3000 dead in the streets?

Perhaps it all started with the ST. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572. Terrible! Found at http://www.reformation.org/bart.html

'August 24, 1572, was the date of the infamous St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in France. On that day, over 400 years ago, began one of the most horrifying holocausts in history. The glorious Reformation, begun in Germany on October 31, 1517, had spread to France—and was joyfully received. A great change had come over the people as industry and learning began to flourish, and so rapidly did the Truth spread that over a third of the population embraced the Reformed Christian Faith.

However, alarm bells began to ring at the Vatican! France was her eldest daughter and main pillar—the chief source of money and power. . . . King Pepin of the Franks (the father of Charlemagne) had given the Papal States to the Pope almost 1000 years earlier. Almost half the real estate in the country was owned by the clergy.

Meanwhile, back in Paris, the King of France and his Court spent their time drinking, reveling and carousing. The Court spiritual adviser—a Jesuit priest—  urged them to massacre the Protestants—as penance for their many sins! To catch the Christians off-guard every token of peace, friendship, and ecumenical good will was offered.

Suddenly—and without warning—the devilish work commenced. Beginning at Paris, the French soldiers and the Roman Catholic clergy fell upon the unarmed people, and blood flowed like a river throughout the entire country. Men, women, and children fell in heaps before the mobs and the bloodthirsty troops. In one week, almost 100,100 Protestants perished. The rivers of France were so filled with corpses that for many months no fish were eaten. In the valley of the Loire, wolves came down from the hills to feel upon the decaying bodies of Frenchmen. The list of massacres was as endless as the list of the dead!

Many were imprisoned—many sent as slaves to row the King's ships—and some were able to escape to other countries. . . . The massacres continued for centuries. The best and brightest people fled to Germany, Switzerland, England, Ireland and eventually America and brought their incomparable manufacturing skills with them. . . . France was ruined. . . . Wars, famine, disease and poverty finally led to the French Revolution—the Guillotine—the Reign of Terror—the fall of the Roman Catholic Monarchy—atheism—communism etc., etc.'

I remember learning about this when we read and discussed Gordon Liddy's book WILL Years ago. Liddy was jailed for his part in Watergate. In prison he found himself among mobsters. As part of his prison routine Liddy treated his fellow prisoners to some history lessons. To something they could appreciate and learn from. And here was Catherine de Medici concocting and carrying out a rub out all her enemies at once plan by bringing them together in one place. For a banquet, I think it was.

Is there anyone prouder of his nationality than a Frenchman?

marcie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: August 15, 2014, 02:37:49 PM »
Thank you for all of the insights here. It does seem that the lack of leadership -- or more to the point -- the actions of people such as the chief of police, Raoul Rigault, added the "mob" element to the actions of people who had felt powerless for a long time.

The contemplated burning of the Louvre, which was open to all of the "common people," was part of the "madness" as several of you have indicated.

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: August 15, 2014, 02:44:19 PM »
That's Catherine de Medici, in black, in the midst of all the carnage. An amazing woman and queen. And mother of three kings!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: August 15, 2014, 02:54:06 PM »
Wow thanks Jonathan you did go back further and really nailed it - I was only reading about what started the 30 years war which, except for its name I knew nothing about and it too was a religious war - cannot believe 30 years of war starts over 5 priests being thrown out of a window to their death  -

It's easy seeing how France was the extension of Rome and then easily continued its partnership with the Vatican which we forget, at this time the Vatican took in a land area of about a third of what is now Italy. Part of Italy becoming a nation was their fight with the Vatican.

Those in Gaul always prided themselves in being a direct outreach of Rome and thus the Vatican where as, the Germanic people were scattered tribes and until Charlemagne a loosely organized part of Europe that included what the church called pagans in addition to a few areas that had converted.

Now I need to read more about the St. Bartholomew Day massacre - I have read little about the entanglement of France and the Holy Roman Empire having been devoting much reading to the Germanic connections and learning more about the ancient tribes. I find all this fascinating.  

I think what is so difficult for many of us in the America's is to relate to over a 1000 years of history that still creeps into Europe's everyday viewpoints and knee jerk reactions.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: August 15, 2014, 03:41:08 PM »
Interesting juxtaposition of events from you all..........

Irish/Scotch-Irish/Reformation/Vatican power/1870 Unification of Italy against Vatican/Franco-Prussian War/Paris Commune/Puritans/NRA/Vatican conspiracy to take over the US/ Ferguson, Mo/armed to the teeth govt agencies v citizens. Issues never seem to change much, no matter how far back in history we go. I guess we're back to that one word POWER: who has it and who wants it.

Jean

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: August 15, 2014, 05:52:04 PM »
Jean watching the Musical of Victor Hugo's Notre Dame de Paris it is easy to see today sharp and prophetic - Hugo wrote this as a story that takes place in 1462 or 93 when all over Europe Gypsies were given a small amount of money and told to leave within hours of their receiving the money - many flee to Paris although France was attempting to rid itself of Gypsies - and yes, the story is a love story of sorts but it is also showing the Catholic Church as the oppressor and the knight or in the musical an officer in the army of noble birth - think musketeers or later the Corp that surrounded and kept safe the King therefore, in Hugo's story, noble like a knight the soldier represents the monarchy. He also reacts with anger and brutality when his quest for power is at odds with his vows to his fleur-de-lye, his future wife. Both the knight and the priest are torn between vows and lust for power represented in Esmeralda - the only one who loves is the untouchable, deformed Quasimodo.

The musical eliminates many of the characters in the book but the essentials are all there including a great scene between the playwright, poet, philosopher and the priest where they talk about change because of the Gutenberg press, Luther writing a Bible, the split of everything that was known with the new - could be today with the World Wide Web, reaches of science and again, the split between the traditions like the Cathedrals embraced by conservatives versus, the unknown and change of morality typical of a new  viewpoint.

Enjoy - the music will stay with you - seeing Garou as Quasimodo without makeup - he is one good looking man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-E7WDcya8Y
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: August 15, 2014, 11:17:40 PM »
JONATHAN, thanks for the history; I would love to know more but perhaps we can take only a bit of that horrifying history at a time.  And BARBARA and the rest of you I'm enjoying this discussion very much.

And the music, BARBARA, those voices!   Thank you.

marcie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: August 16, 2014, 12:14:21 AM »
Yes, thank you all very much for the history and for that moving music. This discussion is richer for the contributions of everyone's knowledge and perspectives.

Maybe we should turn to Chapter 11. Paris is "Paris again" and artists and others from America are drawn to the city that is quickly restoring itself to its former glory. In turn, the American's spending is helping to support Paris. We're reintroduced to Henry James, who speaks perfect French as only some of the Americans do who come to Paris to study and work.  What do you know about Henry James and his writing?

marcie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #331 on: August 16, 2014, 12:15:54 PM »
We also meet, or meet again, several American painters in this chapter. There is quite a bit about Mary Cassatt and John Singer Sargent. There is lots we can talk about and learn.

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #332 on: August 16, 2014, 01:36:14 PM »
Openbooks - free books to read or borrow - has several ebooks on Mary Cassatt

https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Mary+cassatt

Also Henry James

https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Henry+james

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #333 on: August 16, 2014, 02:02:49 PM »
Isn't it funny how related things just pop up out of nowhere during these book discussions?  This morning, I finished listening to the the musical of Victor Hugo's Notre Dame de Paris (Thanks for that, Barb!)  ... snapped the leash on my pup and went for our morning walk trying to remember when and IF I ever read Hugo's story.  I must have - the names of the characters are all so familiar.  I made a mental note to include the title on my TBR pile - assume it's available electronically.  In English, Hugo's book is known as "The Hunchback of Notre Dame."  You probably know this.

Okay, we're walking along - about three blocks from my house - and there is the little lending Library a neighbor has constructed - right on the sidewalk...I had my cell phone with me - decided to snap a picture, because this was so serrendipitous...
Here's the little library - really little -

And just in case you can't make out the titles of the books behind the little glass door, I took a close-up -


Now I have NO excuse not to read the book - before I return it!

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #334 on: August 16, 2014, 02:07:43 PM »
Thank you for that link to the Henry James' novels, Jean.  Isn't it amazing that we can read his many works  at will, just by a click of a button?

I found a link of what someone has chosen as his top novels.  How many have you read?

 1. The Portrait of a Lady (1881) - When James began this book he was a promising young writer with a special line in depicting the lives of Americans in Europe. When he finished it he had become a figure in the history of the novel itself. This story of a young American woman in England and Italy—of her stifling marriage and her desperate fight for freedom—stands as a link between two centuries. It’s the bridge on which the loose expansive Victorian novel flowed over into the formal concentration of modernism; the link, say, between George Eliot and Virginia Woolf.

2. The Golden Bowl (1904) - Sure, it’s hard, and you’ll feel proud of yourself when you finish. It’s meant to be hard, because James’ characters are all trying to figure out what the others know about a situation that none of them can quite bring him or herself to name. Maggie Verver’s best friend is sleeping with her husband; the best friend who has also just married her fabulously rich widowed father. Watching Maggie awake into a pained consciousness of the world around her—well, it’s like an enormous wave that grows and grows and never quite breaks.

3. “The Aspern Papers” (1888) - Lies and secrets, Venice and treachery. An old woman guards a clutch of love letters from a long-dead poet; an editor wants them and will do almost anything to get them. James wrote many stories about writers and artists, and thought so hard about the relation of art and life that he burned many of his own letters and hoped that he would have no biographer. This story will make anybody who does write about him wonder about the claims of privacy and the inevitability of betrayal.

4. What Maisie Knew (1897) - One reviewer said this novel was fully as indecent as if it had been written in French. It’s the first important novel in English to turn on a child custody case, and more timely now than ever. This family is blended in all the wrong ways, and little Maisie—whose age is never specified—has to puzzle it all out.

5. The Ambassadors (1903) - James’ own favorite among his works, and a book consciously based upon a cliché, the old idea that as soon as an American arrives in Paris his whole set of moral beliefs and practices will immediately fall to pieces. Yet suppose it’s all for the best? For with Puritanism in tatters, just think about the possibilities for growth and change…

6. Washington Square (1880) - Set in New York at right about the time of James’s own birth in 1843, this short novel describes a provincial city that didn’t yet reach much north of 14th Street. His prose was never more epigrammatically brilliant than in this book about a stubborn daughter and a pigheaded father. My students always love it, and they immediately get its point—so now I’m waiting to see what my own daughter thinks about it.

7. The Bostonians (1886) - Any good liberal—and James was one—who has ever chafed at the excesses of his or her own side will love the satire of this book’s opening chapters, which take on the whole of New England’s reforming spirit. (But Boston wasn’t ready to be laughed at; the book bombed.) A more enduring strength is its treatment of gender roles in post-Civil War America, and especially its account of what came to be known as a “Boston marriage”: the domestic partnership of two educated women, where our knowledge stops at the shut door of their room.

8. “Daisy Miller” (1878) - The story that made James’ reputation, the tale of an impossibly well-dressed American girl and her adventures in Europe. Look at her, taking a moonlight walk with an Italian in the Colosseum. Is she “fast” or just badly brought-up? Readers argued about her over the dinner table and in the pages of America’s magazines alike, and in the end Daisy is killed by bad manners. Only they aren’t her own.

9. “The Turn of the Screw” (1898) - The longest and greatest and scariest of James’ ghost stories. An isolated house, a high-strung governess, two charming children, and two dead servants. I’ve never forgotten reading it for the first time on a November midnight—when the ghost appeared I really did jump up from my chair. Read it once, and then read it again and see if you think it’s still the same story.

10. The Tragic Muse (1890) - I know, I know—for this last one I should pick an undisputed classic like The Wings of the Dove, the third of James’s clutch of late masterpieces, or maybe “The Beast in the Jungle,” his great tale of a blighted heart. But I’m fond of this underrated novel, James’s most thoroughly English book. Usually he shunned the multi-plotted novels of his Victorian peers. Here he pays them tribute instead, setting one narrative line in the world of the theater, and the other in British parliamentary politics. Each of them turns on the question of vocation, and neither of them really ends happily. James’s first readers always complained about that with him, but today it’s just one of the many things that makes him seem our contemporary.

 Henry James...so closely associated with the Adams family about whom we were talking  last week - Henry and Clover Adams.

"Clover, who has been cited as the inspiration for writer Henry James's Daisy Miller (1878) and The Portrait of a Lady (1881), was married to writer Henry Adams. After her suicide, he commissioned the famous Adams Memorial, which features an enigmatic androgynous bronze sculpture by Augustus Saint-Gaudens, to stand at the site of her, and his, grave.

I think I'm going to read Portrait of a Lady and Daisy Miller - just to get to know Clover better!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #335 on: August 16, 2014, 03:24:00 PM »
Wow - gold mine this morning - books galore - Henry James -  yep read a lot of ol' Henry but a few I have not read include: The Aspern Papers, The Bostonians, Turn of the Screw, The Beast in the Jungle and The Tragic Muse -  I think I will include in my TBR pile the last two but the first three I just as soon skip - I know Turn of the Screw was a well accepted movie but to me there are enough things to be frightened over and issues that sound too much like greed make my skin crawl as to the attitudes of folks about two women - well what's new - enough is enough. - The Beast in the Jungle sounds like so many who put on hold their life, not necessarily from fear of fate but then, maybe so - the fear of not doing the 'right' thing or doing the prudent thing.

What a nice neighborhood lending library - I have seen them as free books to take but not as a library with the concept of returning the book - neat...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ANNIE

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #336 on: August 16, 2014, 04:08:39 PM »
I'm just starting on chap.11 and will comment later on Henry James. 

But,
I've been reading coverage of the Civil War and how Great Britian and France supported the Confederacy by trading arms and heavy ships for raw cotton to support their cotton industries which were suffering due to the Union's blockade of the many ports belonging to the Confederacy. At one time, GB ships loaded with arms landed on a GB controlled island and the trading for cotton continued.

http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/291/cotton-and-the-civil-war
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JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #337 on: August 16, 2014, 04:36:59 PM »
JOANP: I love your neighborhood library! I think I read Hunchback as a child, but need to look at it again

I took one graduate course in literature, in which we discussed the American literature of the period, including James. I remember being terribly impressed by "The Golden Bowl" (terribly dense and symbolic: wouldn't have understood a word without a professor), but don't remember any details.

"Portrait of a Lady" was more straight-forward reading: the only thing I remember from it fifty years later is (as I said in an earlier post) the contrast between the Boston upper class  and a romanticized "natural man," (presumably based on a romantic notion of Western pioneers.

It was a time when that contrast existed in American society (Wallace Stegner captures it in his historical novel about the period, "Angle of Repose.") America was both at that time, an established society in the East, trying to emulate the culture of Europe, and still a frontier in the parts of West, with everything in between.

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #338 on: August 16, 2014, 10:05:14 PM »
Weren't you surprised at how quickly Paris rebuilt and restored herself?  I was surprised how quickly the Americans sailed back into the city - not at all affected by the Prussian victory!  Did everyone assume the Prussians were gone for good?

Lots to talk about in Chapter 11 - but would like to comment on Annie's post regarding the French and British sympathies for the South during the Civil War.  I remember how stunned you were,  Annie.  You're right about the cotton - and the slaves necessary to produce the cotton.  I found this article that might be of interest...


"The Second French Empire remained officially neutral throughout the American Civil War and never recognized the Confederate States of America. The United States had warned that recognition meant war. France was reluctant to act alone without British collaboration, and the British  rejected intervention. Emperor Napoleon III realized that a war with the U.S. without allies "would spell disaster" for France. However, the textile industry needed cotton, and Napoleon III had imperial ambitions in Mexico which could be greatly aided by the Confederacy
 
The 22 political newspapers in Paris reflected the range of French public opinion. Their position on the War was determined by their political values regarding democracy, Napoleon III, and their prediction of the ultimate outcome. Issues such as slavery, the Trent affair (which involved Britain), and the economic impact on the French cotton industry did not influence the editors; instead their positions on the war determined their responses to these issues. The Confederacy was supported by Conservative supporters of Napoleon III, Bourbon legitimists, and Roman Catholic interests. The Union had the support of republicans and Orléanists (who wanted Louis Philippe on the throne).[2]
 
Between 1861 and 1865, the Union blockade cut off most cotton supplies to French textile mills, causing the "famine du coton" (cotton famine). Mills in Alsace, Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Normandy saw prices of cotton double by 1862 and were forced to lay off many workers. As a result, many French industrialists and politicians were rather favorable to a quick Southern victory.
 
 
The American war was a minor issue at a time when France was engaged in multiple diplomatic endeavors in Europe and around the world. Emperor Napoléon III was interested in Central America (trade and plans of a transoceanic canal). He knew the United States strongly opposed (and the Confederacy tolerated) his plan to create a new empire in Mexico, where his troops landed in December 1861

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Civil_War

marcie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #339 on: August 17, 2014, 03:05:12 PM »
JoanP, What a wonderful idea ... your neighbors lending library. You must live in a very safe area!

Thank you all for the links to Henry James' writing. I see that there are quite a few novels of his I don't recall reading. Thanks also, Jean, for the ebooks on Mary Cassatt.

I too was very surprised at how quickly much of Paris was restored. It was interesting that the commerce of Americans visiting Paris contributed so much to their economy. JoanP, I too noted the politics of Franco-American relations at the time. You quoted: "The Confederacy was supported by Conservative supporters of Napoleon III, Bourbon legitimists, and Roman Catholic interests. The Union had the support of republicans and Orléanists (who wanted Louis Philippe on the throne)."

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #340 on: August 17, 2014, 08:05:42 PM »
I wondered who paid for the reconstruction, was it state or private monies? DMc made no comment about that.

Where did all the feelings that going to Europe was good for your health come from? Was it a rationalization for going? They weren't going for professional medical help, or not that i noticed. Wasn't the city of Paris as unhealthy as American cities?

And I'm with Grant, how could the Sargents and the Cassatts and apparently many others just do nothing? I would go bonkers. I'm sometimes going bonkers just because of retirement, but still have some worthwhile activities to work on. They would be much more confined then i am. It seems the Sargents didn't socialize, or talk to hardly anybody else, especially those not of their class!! :-[

I guess i would not be a good member of the leisure class. ;D I'd need a lot of prozac, or something. Maybe that's why there was so much drinking. Altho DMc doesn't mention that too often. I would enjoy the leisure of sitting in the cafes and having some good coffee, wine and/or conversation for about three months and then i'd need a project!

Jean

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #341 on: August 17, 2014, 08:52:44 PM »
As a woman during this time running a household would be like running a small business - today we have machines - then there was help to contend with - to teach, to set standards for their performance, to oversee - think for a small household Mathew's mother in Downton - Arranging a dinner party would be more involved than today arranging a ball - everything is made from scratch and there is no one store to get all your supplies - as hostess there would be flowers to arrange, not purchased already arranged, there would be the semi-annual laundress so your clothing would have to be planned - a seamstress makes the clothing - department stores were just coming into being but they still did not sell clothing off the rack.

I am remembering years back when my children were young and we still sewed and during my childhood you were never sick in bed playing, you were expected to knit socks or darn holes in socks and stockings and mom made all our clothes including underwear.

Sunday dinner would be several dishes each with their own china and cutlery and more than one kind of wine with each wine having its own glass for each table setting. Table clothes were hand washed, ironed and STARCHED - remember making starch on the stove - and water for the wash would be heated on the stove or in a boiler above the coal stove - no piped in gas or electric stoves and no electric irons. Newspapers were not home delivered - music meant someone had to practice an instrument - and everyone had to look their part - remember the movie Gigi -

And so either there was wealth enough to afford hiring enough household help that a woman traditionally over saw and therefore, you were a CEO of a small company even in an apartment or you were doing some of this yourself.  Part of your day or at least week was learning what was happening which you had to go out to meet others to keep abreast of the news.

My guess is the health improvements had to do with spas - the water at a spa was the thing to drink and bath in - and then most cities in the US took their drinking water from a local lake or river with all the contamination - Since the commune destruction there were fountains built all over Paris using underground piping so the poor especially were not having to buy water from vendors who took the water from the Seine where the sewers were emptied - which suggests the water was cleaner than in most cities of the US.  Also the first sanatoriums were built in Europe, usually in a forest or mountain setting with extensive gardens surrounding the buildings. They became a model for the US which only showed at that time they're health care was advanced.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #342 on: August 17, 2014, 09:05:24 PM »
After the two or more chapters about Paris and its wars - post chaos coming back to personalities almost feels like name dropping.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #343 on: August 17, 2014, 10:17:58 PM »
Right you are, BARBARA!  Henry James described the changes in Paris as "amazing elasticity."

Paris liked the Americans coming over as it helped their economy  ("the trade of Paris is now mainly sustained by American visitors who spend more money among the shopkeepers than all the rest put together...we only wish there were more of them.") and they admired our republican form of government.  "Indeed, one group....conceived the idea of creating an unprecedented gift from France to the United States."

A colossal monument called LIBERTY LIGHTING THE WORLD was planned and it is still lighting the world welcoming all; even when they become a burden such as that on our Mexican border


Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #344 on: August 17, 2014, 10:28:44 PM »
The painting by Victor Dargaud (illustration in book) of the Statue of Liberty rising over Paris certainly shows the size of the statue.  It always brings a few tears to my eyes when I see it, much as the National Anthem does.  Why is that?  Patriotism?   Pride?  History?    Realizing the sacrifices of so many for our country?  Probably all of that and more.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #345 on: August 17, 2014, 10:32:11 PM »
Fun facts:   Height of the Statue of Liberty in feet - 305
Eiffel Tower - 986 feet
Empire State Building - 1250 feet

marcie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #346 on: August 18, 2014, 12:09:00 AM »
Ella, thanks for reminding us that the Statue of Liberty was brought up in this chapter and for those statistics. The creation of it shows the close relationship America had with France... or some Frenchmen had with some Americans. I'm wondering when that changed. We are, of course, allies but don't seem as close as we are with Great Britain.

Thanks too, Jean, for bringing up the then prevalent idea that Americans would go to Europe for their health. It is an  interesting notion.

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #347 on: August 18, 2014, 12:17:14 PM »
I keep forgetting to voice my thought that the Louvre must have a guardian angel. It 's been so close to possible destruction so many times in its life and has been saved each time.

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #348 on: August 18, 2014, 01:12:42 PM »
Ella - how many people in the United States do you think still look upon Lady Liberty with such nostaligia and pride?  I grew up in New Jersey right across from Bedloe's Island - it was always a favorite spot to take visitors to the East Coast.  And they were always moved as you were!

The siege of Paris under the Commune government had lasting effects.  Thank heaven the Louvre wasn't destroyed  Jean!  It was next on the list!  It was difficult to believe that the Parisians in Paris thought so little of this treasure that they were ready to destroy it.  It goes to show just how high emotions ran against their oppressors.  Still have a hard time relating to that!  Wouldn't anything or anyone have stopped them, had the Prussians not been declared victors and entered Paris.  Thank heaven for the Prussians, right?
Even during the World Wars, the Louvre was spared - these were Parisians ready to destroy their own past!

The Statue of Liberty seems to have been the result of the Franco-Prussian War.  Its creator, Frédéric-Auguste Bartholdi's hometown in Alsace, lost independence had just passed into German control in the Franco-Prussian War. These troubles in his ancestral home of Alsace are purported to have further influenced Bartholdi's own great interest in independence, liberty, and self-determination.

It must have cost a mint to design, construct, deconstruct, pack up and send the Statue to New York.  I wondered where the funds came from.
Found a little information about this -

"Soon after the establishment of the French Third Republic, the project of building some suitable memorial to show the fraternal feeling existing between the republics of the United States and France was suggested, and in 1874 the Union Franco-Americaine (Franco-American Union) was established by Edouard de Laboulaye. Before starting his commission, Bartholdi had traveled to the United States and personally selected Bedloe's Island in New York Harbor as the site for the statue. The United States agreed to responsibility for funding the building of the pedestal, with about $300,000 being raised. In October 1886, the structure was officially presented both to the nation and to all aspirers to liberty within the world, as the joint gift of the French and American people.

It was rumored in France that the face of the Statue of Liberty was modeled after Bartholdi's mother. In Paris on the Ile aux Cygnes, there is a replica of the Statue of Liberty which faces west supposedly in alignment with the Statue of Liberty in New York."

Here's the painting by Victor Dargaud, which McCullough included in the book - - I suppose this is where it war first assembled in Paris - before beign disassembled and shipped.






JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #349 on: August 18, 2014, 01:28:55 PM »
Looking at the schedule, I see it's time to move on to Chapters Twelve and Thirteen.  If you are just catching up - please feel free to share your observations on ANYTHING in these past chapters.

Who are some of the artists mentioned in Chapter XIII  you would like to learn more about?  Was there anyone else in Chapter XIII that impressed you - beyond the artists?  There is so much here!  I wonder how long it took David McCullough to research and then to put together this book!

In the next chapter, three artists seem to stand out...but there were many Americans studying and copying in Paris at this time.  Do you recognize any - do you have  favorites?

The next two chapters will reveal much more about Mary Cassatt and John Singer Sargent.  I'm really interested to learn about the relationship of these two Americans in Paris.  Sometimes it seems they'd have a lot in common...but then there is those differences!

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #350 on: August 19, 2014, 11:51:30 AM »
There is an artist I'd like to know more about - though he's not one of thKe Americans in Paris at this time.  Have you noticed how many references there are to the 17th century artist, Diego Velazquez and his influence on the leading American artists?  His "Las Meninas" was mentioned more than once. Can you find it?

bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #351 on: August 19, 2014, 11:52:08 AM »
JoanP., I can't believe you have this sweet little neighbor library, for borrowing books.  And who would have imagined you would find Hunchback of Notre Dame after deciding to read it some day.

I am so sorry I have not participated much in the discussion.  This past 3 months have been a bit challenging with remodeling my bathroom, searching for a new table set and being on overload with my summer daycare.  I thought the idea of traveling to Paris with all of you in the book would take the place of NO real vacation for me this summer.  If anything it only made me long to be somewhere other than home, picking out a new toilet, vanity, mirror, tub, surround and tile, along with a spa decor to include a calming beach scene.  Well, after calling around finding plumbers, ceramic tile installers, paint, drywall, mudding, taping and final touches, my bathroom is now complete!  But.....as for reading, I am afraid I have a long way from completing this book.  So again....Paris must wait.

I enjoy reading all your posts.  So much information!  The children all return to school this week, and my daycare will decrease down to only two full time, and two part time children, so I look forward to our next book we begin.  Do we know what it will be yet?

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #352 on: August 19, 2014, 12:14:18 PM »
Bella - I don't envy you your "bathroom" summer. - though mine is long overdue for an update.  

As for "Hunchback" - I have no idea how long I get to check it out of the sweet little library.  Someone took a lot of care and time putting it together.  "Hunchback" is not easy reading.  I'm wondering if it is this particular translation of Victor Hugo's classic...  I'm quite sure now that I've never read it before.  Unless I read a different translation!  Will stick with this one a bit longer to see if I get better at reading it!  It's fun to read it though...with the thought that he was a contemporary of the writers and artists we're reading about.

Stick with reading the posts, Bella, as you have been.  So much good information here!
Or try skipping ahead to Chapter 13 - the emphasis is on Mary Cassatt, with some in
Formation I know you will find interesting.

ps More votes are coming in with the publication of the Book Bytes and the second vote to break the tie.  Still too close to call. Will let you know as soon as we know which book will get our attention in September.

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #353 on: August 19, 2014, 12:32:58 PM »
D Mc talks extensively about st gaudens Farragut. I went looking for a clearer picture then the one he put in the book. I may have found something better as i continued to look - a video from youtube of the three St-G's in NYC.........

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TCmg7RffhKU

bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #354 on: August 19, 2014, 03:51:00 PM »
Thanks JoanP. for the heads up on chapter 13, being about Mary Cassatt.  After just reading about her in out recent book, I would like to see what Mc has to say about her.

Mable, In the interview Mc did, I think in the headlines above, he talked a lot about how much he loved the many sculptures of St Gaudens Farragut, throughout the cities.

I just may have a little spare time tomorrow since it will be a lighter daycare day. so may try to read chapter 13.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #355 on: August 19, 2014, 05:41:28 PM »
Thank you for the video of New York and Saint-Gaudens' statue in memory of Admiral Farragut, Jean.  I read this was the first  to commentate a Civil Was officer.  It puts us right into the book's timeline, doesn't it?-Reminding us that our artists have just come from a shattering experience in America, to Paris, just recovering from the siege that nearly destroyed thiis center of art from within.

Gussie Saint-Audens described in such detail her husband's difficulty working with a statue of this size.  This, from a man used to working with tiny cameos - relatively speaking.  It wasn't Farragut's face that  gave him so much trouble though.  It was the positioning of the back leg!  Why was that?

I remember thinking it was strange we were hearing all this from his wife and not from Saint-Gaudens himself - until I read of a fire that destroyed most of his papers and notebooks...and then this-

"Saint-Gaudens and his wife figure prominently in the 2011 book The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris by historian David McCullough. In interviews upon the book's release McCullough said the letters of Augusta Saint-Gaudens to her friends and family in the United States were among the richest primary sources he discovered in years of research into the lives of the American community in Paris in the late 19th century."

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #356 on: August 19, 2014, 07:36:26 PM »
I had not realized that the Farragut statue was so revolutionary in posing him in everyday clothing and action. We take that for granted now.

I took a second look at his back leg, and thought it seemed a little awkward. But that's probably because I'd read DM. I certainly never would have noticed it ordinarily.

His face is interesting. But on that high base, probably no one sees it.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #357 on: August 20, 2014, 01:44:28 AM »
what is DM
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #358 on: August 20, 2014, 07:05:04 AM »
Maybe someone should hop a train to New York and climb the pedestal to get a closer picture of  Saint-Gaudens'  Admiral Farragut!  It's up so high it is difficult to see the detail.  Here's a model he made for the face...

The admiral certainly looks "resolute" doesn't he?  "Damn the torpedoes!"  This is the work that launched Saint-Audens popularity in the United States.  

I agree, Joan K - Saint-Audens' lifelike stance for a statue was an innovation at this time.

More on the statue -

Farragut is depicted in his naval frock coat, facing to the south. He looks as though he could be on the bridge of a ship (and we are assured by a letter to The Times in 1912 that Farragut’s pose is authentic for a seaman and “one of the great merits of this masterpiece”). Farragut has binoculars in his left hand and a gust of wind appears to be turning up the bottom of his coat. He is on top of a broad stone wall that is fairly festooned with bas-relief carvings, including two female figures (that’s Loyalty on the left, and Courage on the right), an unsheathed sword amid ocean waves, and a long-winded and highly stylized (and, err, hard-to-read) inscription.

The statue was the first major public work by Saint-Gaudens. He finished the statue in Paris, and exhibited a version of it at the Paris Salon before it was cast in bronze, by Adolphe Gruet, and sent to New York.  The inscription on the left side.

Both sides of the monumental wall are inscribed. On the left side is a dedication to Farragut. It reads:
 
That the memory of a daring and sagacious commander and gentle great-souled man whose life from childhood was given to his country but who served her supremely in the war for the union MDCCCLXI-MDCCCLXV may be preserved and honored that they they who come after and who will owe him so much may see him as he was seen by friend and foe his countrymen have set this monument A.D. MDCCCLXXXI"

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #359 on: August 20, 2014, 07:32:44 AM »
Other views...do his legs seem further apart in the first one?






Barb...my guess:  DM=the author of the book we're reading. :D