Kristin Lavransdatter

[PatH]

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[PatH]

I, too, feel that sex has not been committed at this point, though Erlend certainly has his eye on her.  After she wakes, and asks him if he slept, he says:
  "Perhaps someday the night will come when you and I dare to fall asleep together--I don't know what you will think once you have considered that.  I have kept vigil here in the night.  There is still so much between us, more than a naked sword had lain between you and me.  Tell me, will you have affection for me after this night is over?.

I remember the stories of proxy marriages, in which the proxy in which the proxy goes through the ceremony in the name of the bridegroom, and then the couple lies in bed together with a naked sword between them,symbolizing that they are not having sex.  The woman and the absent bridegroom are then legally married.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, that was the rouse used by Tristram and Isolde - they were lovers but to avoid detection by the king, Isolde was married to the king,  they laid a sword between them - "Mark came and saw for himself his wife and his nephew separated by a sword, and he assumed that this could only be a sign of their fidelity and loyalty toward him: her fidelity as a wife and his loyalty as an honorable knight. So thinking, he brought them back to his court, restoring each to his or her former position. "

Some versions of the tale have them laying together aboard ship as Tristram is bringing Isolde to the king for marriage and while sleeping off the love potion the naked sword slipped between them so that the king's men conclude Isolde was chaste for her marriage.

[bellamarie]

What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance?  Is it binding?

pg. 122  "Tell me if you will hold me dear, when this night is past?"  "I will hold you dear, Sir Erlend," said Kristin.  "I will hold you dear, so long as you will__and thereafter I will love none other."  "Then,"  said Erlend slowly, "may God forsake me if any maid or woman come to my arms ere I may make you mine in law and honour.  Say you this, too,"  he prayed.  Kristin said:  "May God forsake me if I take any other man to my arms so long as I live on earth."  "We must go now,"  said Erlend, a little after, "before folk waken."

They passed along the wall among the bushes.  "Have you bethought you,"  asked Erlend, "what further must be done in this?" " 'Tis for you to say what we must do, Erlend,"  answered Kristin.  "Your father," he asked in a little, "they say at Gerdarud he is a mild and righteous man.  Think you he will be so exceeding loth to go back from what he hath agree with Andres Darre?"  "Father has said so often, he would never force us, his daughters."  said Kristin.  "The chief thing is that our lands and Simon's lie so fitly together.  But I trow father would not that I should miss all my gladness in this world for the sake of that."  A fear stirred within her that so simple as this perhaps it might not prove to be__but she fought it down.  "Then maybe 'twill be less hard than I deemed in the night,"  said Erlend.  "God help me, Kristin__methinks I cannot lose you now__unless I win you now, never can I be glad again."

As far as what kind of oath they made to each other, I feel they promised their hearts to each other, with expectations of marriage.  As far as if it is binding, I tend to think Kristin does not have that right to make the oath, knowing her father has already betrothed her to Simon.  Do the women even have a say in a marriage?  The laws I posted prior stated there are way that a man can get out of a betrothal, due to certain circumstances. Will Simon be so ready to release her?  

I get the feeling both Kristin and Erlend know it's not going to be so easy, as she seems to think it will be.  And what about Simon?  What rights does he have, since Kristin has already been promised to him?  He sure did not have an ounce of sorrow when Arne was killed, defending Kristin's honor.  I can only imagine his reactions when Erlend, the man who has already been an outcast for his past behaviors, seems to think he will take Kristin from him.  Possibly yet another fight, just may end with yet another man dying, for their love of Kristin. But then, I am not so sure either of these men actually do love Kristin.  ONLY time will tell.

PatH.,  

"I, too, feel that sex has not been committed at this point, though Erlend certainly has his eye on her."

Methinks, Erlend had a whole lot more than his eye on her.  He had his hands and lips on her.  We know he went farther than he should have for sure, just how far we know not, but certainly enough for her to feel her heart, and body now belongs to him.

[bellamarie]

So Barb, the "naked sword," seems to be a ruse, to keep others from knowing they actually did do the deed.

Here is the link to The Legend of Tristan and Isolde.  It is a bit lengthy, but I see what similarities there are in this legend, and our story here with Erlend, Kristin and Simon.

 The legend of Tristan and Isolde is one of the most influential medieval romances, which was about a love triangle between the hero, his uncle and his uncle's wife.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/tristan.html 

Could this naked sword also be a semblance, that Erlend and Simon will have a duel for Kristin?  

[bellamarie]

I am quite amazed, and impressed with Sigrid Undset, and how she is seeming to use so many literary pieces to make up this story. So far we have been able to see The Canterbury Tales, and The Legend of Tristan and Isolde, and possibly a little of Romeo and Juliet, so far. It does not surprise me Sigrid Undset was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1928.

[BarbStAubrey]

ok more tid bits

Marriage is an ancient institution that predates recorded history. Early marriage was seen as a strategic alliance between families, with the youngsters often having no say in the matter. In some cultures, parents even married one child to the spirit of a deceased child in order to strengthen familial bonds.

By about 250 years ago, the notion of love matches gained traction, meaning marriage was based on love and possibly sexual desire. But mutual attraction in marriage wasn't important until about a century ago. In fact, in Victorian England, many held that women didn't have strong sexual urges at all.

Marriage wasn't about equality until about 50 years ago. At that time, women and men had unique rights and responsibilities within marriage. For instance, marital rape was legal until the 1970s, and women often could not open credit cards in their own names

Parents historically controlled access to inheritance of agricultural land. But with the spread of a market economy, it's less important for people to have permission of their parents to wait to give them an inheritance or to work on their parents' land.  Modern markets also allow women to play a greater economic role, which lead to their greater independence. And the expansion of democracy, with its emphasis on liberty and individual choice, may also have stacked the deck for love matches.

In many early cultures, men could dissolve a marriage or take another wife if a woman was infertile. However, the early Christian church was a trailblazer in arguing that marriage was not contingent on producing offspring. The early Christian church held the position that if you can procreate you must not refuse to procreate. But they always took the position that they would annul a marriage if a man could not have sex with his wife, but not if they could not conceive.

Marriages in the West were originally contracts between the families of two partners, with the Catholic Church and the state staying out of it. In 1215, the Catholic Church decreed that partners had to publicly post banns, or notices of an impending marriage in a local parish, to cut down on the frequency of invalid marriages (the Church eliminated that requirement in the 1980s). Still, until the 1500s, the Church accepted a couple's word that they had exchanged marriage vows, with no witnesses or corroborating evidence needed.

There were several reasons for prohibiting a marriage. One reason was consanguinity, meaning the couple was too closely related. If the boy or the girl had taken a monastic or religious vow, the marriage was than also prohibited. Other reasons that prohibited marriage, but were not grounds for a divorce, were rape, adultery and incest. A couple could also not be married during a time of fasting, such as lent or advent, and a couple not be married by someone who had killed someone.

[BarbStAubrey]

OK down to Norway and the particulars of marriage

The juridical procedure in Norse society was complicated, but three ceremonial actions seem to have been necessary to make the marriage complete:

Engagement, which meant that the man and the woman were promised to each other. This was part of the deal, and economic compensation was necessary if one side wanted to break the engagement.

Wedding, where the bride was formally given to the bridegroom by her guardian, usually her father. This was done at a feast in the bridegroom's home. "I give thee my daughter" was the formula spoken by the guardian.

Bedding, where the couple went to bed together in the presence of witnesses. This was not a pornographic show. The witnesses left before any sexual action began. But the fact that the couple had gone to bed together was firmly established.

With Christianity came a different perspective. Marriage was now a sacrament, instituted by God and therefore something that concerned both church and society outside the two families. Mutual consent was demanded, and the husband was expected to be faithful. These were new ideas.


And then this bit which yes, sounds like it could complicate things for Kristin

In medieval Europe, in canon law, a betrothal could be formed by the exchange of vows in the future tense ("I will take you as my wife/husband," instead of "I take you as my wife/husband"), but sexual intercourse consummated the vows, making a binding marriage rather than a betrothal. Although these betrothals could be concluded with only the vows spoken by the couple, they had legal implications: Richard III of England had his older brother's children declared illegitimate on the grounds their father had been betrothed to another woman when he married their mother.

A betrothal is considered to be a 'semi-binding' contract. Normal reasons for invalidation of a betrothal include:

    Revelation of a prior commitment or marriage
    Evidence of infidelity
    Failure to conceive (in 'trial marriage' cultures)
    Failure of either party to meet the financial and property stipulations of the betrothal contract

Normally, either party can break a betrothal, though some financial penalty (such as forfeit of the bride price) usually applies.

[PatH]

I am quite amazed, and impressed with Sigrid Undset, and how she is seeming to use so many literary pieces to make up this story. So far we have been able to see The Canterbury Tales, and The Legend of Tristan and Isolde, and possibly a little of Romeo and Juliet, so far. It does not surprise me Sigrid Undset was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1928.

I'm impressed too, and there's more that we don't see.  I've read that she incorporated a number of Norwegian ballads, not available in English, representing 6 different patterns.  We won't be able to recognize the ballads, but these things have lasted for a reason, and we will feel their power.

[bellamarie]

Are we ready to move on to the next chapters?  I can't wait to see what happens with Kristin and Erlend.

[BarbStAubrey]

[Halcyon]

I'm also ready to move on.  Since there was no betrothal drink does that mean nothing official between the families? 

[bellamarie]

Not only did the drink not take place, but also according to the information I posted earlier, the bans must be posted, which has not yet been done.  So, I suppose what is binding is the verbal promise of each man.   

After the marriage was arranged a wedding notice was posted on the door of the church. The notice was put up to ensure that there were no grounds for prohibiting the marriage. The notice stated who was to be married, and if anyone knew any reasons the two could not marry they were to come forward with the reason. If the reason were a valid one the wedding would be prohibited (Rice).[i/]

[PatH]

Yes, let's move on, and read chapters 4-8, which will finish off The Wreath, about 50 pages.  A LOT happens here.

[PatH]

Since there was no betrothal drink does that mean nothing official between the families? 

That's right;the families don't even know that Kristin and Erlend have met.  Barb's information makes it clear that the two think they have sworn a binding oath, but I don't think it would really stand up in court.

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder if the book will straighten things out because digging deeper - evidently there was an Archbishop Jon who in 1277 in Norway came up with a twist to the marriage process - we already know, thanks to Bellamarie that the Lateral Council (1215) speaks to the banns of marriage - the legal decree for the church states: "We decree that when marriages are to be contracted they must be announced publicly in the churches by the priests during a suitable and fixed time, so that if legitimate impediments exist, they may be made known. Let the priests nevertheless investigate whether any impediments exist." So, all marriages celebrated even by a priest without banns were considered invalid. The Council of Trent ((1545-1563) took a further step and decreed that marriage to be valid had to be before the parish priest and two or three witnesses.

In the book 'Women Old Norse Society' and in 'From Viking Stronghold to Christian Kingdom' both talk about Archbishop Jon, who in 1277 writes and makes legal within the Norwegian Church a new Christian Law (there was another Archbishop in Ireland during this period who decrees a similar text) that says that a man may not marry a maiden against her will and civil law that still controls the property and dowry says that where ancient law gave the arranging and agreeing on marriage to the men now the mother had to be a part of any arrangement and if there were no men than she had the right to negotiate - no where does it suggest the bride had any say so however, if she chooses to marry against the will of her family than she and subsequent children loose all inheritance.

If a marriage takes place in secret then the particular words become important - if he says "I Marry You" they are legally married however, if he says, "I Shall Marry You" they are not legally married. This applied in Jon's Christian Law and in Norwegian Ecclesiastical practice.

Evidently, and without writing here all that is said in both books - in a nutshell, concubinage was typical because marriage was more about passing along wealth and attempting by the church to make the marriage the only legal sexual relationship - Seems the barons are up in arms over this and it was their desire to have protection from what they say to a women during the heat of passion - according to Jon's law if a marriage did not include banns or the barons did not legally marry who they bedded there were consequences of land and treasury required in payment as compensation including rent income that further increases the church treasury. They saw the reduction in the father's rights and challenged the church's legal definition of marriage that required banns.

A struggle between Church and State takes place with the barons winning so that the marriage law was returned to the ancient laws of marriage that does not include banns and was in affect until the end of the fifteenth century. The decree was that the church can only issue arrangements that do not interfere with the king's laws which is the national law of Norway. Looks like Henry in England was not the only one getting out from under the legal arm of the church - here in Norway it was the barons who led the way.

And so I am anxious to read how all this is or not part of our story -

[ginny]

I am so glad to see Xine joining, she'll be a wonderful addition. What a super discussion you've all made of it... It's amazing how the book seems to call to you when you're doing something else, it's a quite interesting hold it has on one, but unfortunately I lack the hours in the day to even pick it up.

I  have learned a great deal, however.  The author is an expert in this period, which I found fascinating,  and I think  also, Pat, (thank you for the warm welcome), I think of it as less Medieval and more Norse tho I have no experience in  Norse legend.

That bit about how the legends are woven in is magic.  This is SUCH a useful discussion, and so thoughtfully done by all. 

Thank you for this wonderful discussion, I am enjoying reading it. I never understood how people could say that, but I do now.

[PatH]

It's amazing how the book seems to call to you when you're doing something else, it's a quite interesting hold it has on one, but unfortunately I lack the hours in the day to even pick it up.

Yes, the book really sucks you in.  Everyone, I really admire your self-control in keeping to the schedule.  It isn't easy, I know, but it works better.

[bijou324]

Ginny,     The sentence I use to remember it is----We'll discuss it further as we walk farther down the road. 

Carol Ann

[PatH]

Hi, bijou324, are you joining us, or just passing through?

[Halcyon]

I'm wondering why the early Church became involved with marriages and how did marriage become a sacrament?  I bet Barb knows.  And were the Church rules the same in every location?  I find this fascinating.

[bellamarie]

Halcyon,  I found this very informative link as far as marriage becoming a sacrament with the Catholic church.

When did marriage become a sacrament?

 Long before it became a sacrament, marriage was a part of many human cultures, and some sense of the
greatness of the matrimonial union existed in all of them. Married couples are mentioned in Scripture
throughout both Old and New Testaments. And it is clear that Jesus‟ parents were married as were at least
some of the Apostles.
 Before the 11th century, there were no uniform church regulations for marriage in the Latin (Roman) Church.
For the first few centuries of Christianity, the community simply adopted familial customs of marriage in the
home. Church leaders relied primarily on the civil government of Rome to regulate marriage and divorce
between Christians and non-Christians alike. With the fall of the Roman Empire, the Church gradually began
to take legal control over marriage and make it an official church function. In the Middle Ages, Augustine‟s
teaching led the Church to an explicit consciousness of the sacramentality of marriage among the baptized.
 In the twelfth century, the idea of marriage as a „sacrament‟, i.e., as something fundamentally regulated by
the Church, was established.
 The Council of Trent in the 16th c. capped a long development by declaring marriage as one of the seven
sacraments of the Church.

From: Martos, J. Doors to the Sacred. Liguori, 2001; Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, p.1236. Paulist Press, 2000;
Catechism of Catholic Church, #1603; People of Faith Generations, v.4, issue 4, Marriage, p. 4.

http://www.resurrection-catholic.org/learn/sacraments/marriage/questions.pdf   

[Halcyon]

Thank you Bellamarie.  I'm taking ginny's Latin class and it is very interesting to me what an influence not only the Church had but the Romans.  They were everywhere.

Has everyone finished reading?  I love this.  It's sanctioned gossip.  We can discuss these characters and not hurt anyone!

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  I must say it takes much restraint to not read ahead as things keep developing so quickly.  I must admit when we were assigned chapter 1-3 I was so engrossed, that I realized I had gone into chapter 4 without even realizing it, and immediately stopped myself.  I have now started using my bookmark to stop me.

Well now we have much more information, and as I suspected, Simon and Lavrans are not at all happy with Kristin's decision to go back on the betrothal.   Her behavior is really starting to upset me.  She seems to be thinking only of herself, her wants, her needs, her happiness, although her actions are not at all helping with keeping her reputation in tact.  She lost her best friend Arne in a fight for her honor, and here we are yet again, two men ready to fight for her honor.  Simon seems to actually care about Kristin's family name.  Erlend, once again seems to be filled with lust, and is willing to put Kristin in danger, and not care about what this behavior is doing to her reputation.  I don't know why I was surprised to read:

Erlend clasped her to him, and groaned:  "I cannot bring you to Husaby, Kristin."  "Why can you not?"  she asked softly.  "Eline came thither in the autumn, " said he after a moment.  "I cannot move her to leave the place," he went on hotly, "not unless I bear her to the sledge by force and drive her away with her.  And that methought I could not do__she has brought both our children home with her."  Kristin felt herself sinking, sinking.  In a voice breaking with fear, she said:  "I deemed you were parted from her."  "So I deemed I, too" answered Erllend shortly.  "But she must have heard in Osterdal, where she was, that I had thought of marriage."

But not too get too far ahead, we now know for certain Kristin and Erlend have indeed had sex, and it is ongoing.  He suddenly disappears from her life and she lies in fear of being pregnant.  Before he leaves he tells Kristin what they are doing is not grave sin.

pg. 131  "I have been fearing you would be angry with me," he said.  "You must not grieve for our sin,"  he said, sometime after.  "Tis not a deadly sin.  God's law is not like to the law of the land in this... Gunnulv, my brother, once mad this matter plain to me__if two vow to have and hold each other fast for all time, and there after lie together, then they are wedded before God and may not break their troths without great sin.  I can give you the words in Latin when they come to my mind__I knew them once...."  Kristin wondered a little why Erlend's brother should have said this__but she thrust from her the hateful fear that it might have been said of Erlend and another__and sought to find comfort in his words.

Erlend sure is a smooth talker.  Kristin has had red flags throughout the days with Erlend, but she just keeps refusing to admit to herself he is wrong for her.  She finds out she is not pregnant, and seeks out Brother Edvin to confess her sins.  She tells him of what Erlend said about them not sinning and Brother Edvin explains to her:

"I see well, Kristin, some one who knew it not to the full has spoken to you of the canonical law.  You could not bind yourself by oath to this man without sinning against your father and mother; them had God set over you before you met him.  And is it not a sorrow and a shame for his kin, too, if they learn that he has lured astray the daughter of a man who has borne his shield with honour at all seasons__betrothed, too, to another?  I hear by your words, you deem you have not sinned so greatly__yet dare you not confess this thing to your appointed priest?  And if so be you think you are as good as wed to this man, wherefore set you not on your head the linen coif of wedlock, but go still with flowering hair amidst the young maids with whom you can have no great fellowship any more__for now must the chief of your thoughts be with other things than they have in mind?"

I suspected she was in a boatload of heartache with Erlend, and now it is coming a reality.  

[PatH]

It'll be a while before I can get my act together today, but in the meantime, here's a statue of Kristin in Sel, where Jorundgaard is supposed to be.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--X13Ggi56Do/T-DOmznEg1I/AAAAAAAAAgc/bG5kVLHV_V0/s1600/statue.jpg

[countrymm]

I requested the movie Kristin Lavransdatter from the library.  It is a fairly new video but I was shocked that it was in Norwegian.  Yes, it had subtitles but I only got partway through it.  Ended up returning it to the library.

[ANNIE]

I am not sure what pages we are discussing??  I have fallen prey to the call of the BOOK and can't stop reading it. But can go back to the proper readings without giving away anymore than we are discussing here.

I did not know that Kristin really existed until I saw PatH's picture of the statue of her.  And also, did not know that a movie has been produced around  Kristin's story.
I,too, have problems reading subtitles and trying to follow the story on film. Just doesn't work for me.

[PatH]

Welcome, Annie.  I see you've caught up.  The first book of the trilogy is The Wreath, or The Bridal Wreath in Archer's translation.  It's divided into three parts, and we have just finished the second part, also called The Wreath, and are about to start talking about chapters 4-8.

Since you've just started discussing, how about telling us what you feel about the book.  Aside from the fact that it sucked you in, as it did the rest of us, what are your thoughts about it?

[PatH]

Kristin didn't really exist, but all the places in the book are real, and the statue is at Sel, called Sil in my book, where Jorundgaard is supposed to be.

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE: "She seems to be thinking only of herself, her wants, her needs, her happiness, although her actions are not at all helping with keeping her reputation in tact."

I forget how old Kristen is supposed to be at this point: 17 or 18. She has gone from being a little girl to awakening sexually with a bang, and has no clue how to handle it. Like many teenagers, the changes that are happening in her body are so overwhelming, she can't see beyond them. No mother there to recognize the signs and help her (not that her mother would have been much help -- she seems completely lost in her own sorrows). And the nuns are oblivious.

I feel very sorry for her -- she may pay for this the rest of her life. Not that she has lost much in Simon: I think he would have been a domineering husband. But Erland seems just as bad: "act first, and try to clean up the mess later if you can't get out of it, whining about it on the way and assuming that tomorrow things will somehow be all right" seems to be his motto. I know people like that and they stumble through life, hurting people and moving on.

[bijou324]

Hi Pat H.  Unfortunately I can't join just yet as I'm in the middle of "A Mountain of Crumbs" which I moderate for my book group at the local library.  I am an avid reader and have followed you folks for years.

I own "The Wreath" (Nunnally trans) and hope to join in when I can.

[ginny]

Thank you for the "further" "farther" sentence, bijou, I can remember that and it helps.

[PatH]

Hi, bijou, and welcome.  Do follow along, and comment when you feel like it, or have the time.  It's encouraging when our secret admirers say hi.  I bet if you finish The Wreath, you'll get the next two.

[ANNIE]

One of my first thoughts concerning Kristin was are we forgetting that she is just a teenager with very little understanding of her feelings for Erlend and he is over ten years older than she.  Good grief!  This seems to be a foretelling of a very sticky situation.  And he is certainly a smooth talker. 
Has anyone brought up the ballad sung during the banquet and dancing on pg.131?  I am trying to discover who the Danish King and Queen were.  And the song does tell the story of a Queen involved with another before her marriage.  And what this has to do with our lovers.  Back in a few!

[bellamarie]

Annie it is so nice to see you join in the discussion.  Good points!

JoanK., 

She has gone from being a little girl to awakening sexually with a bang, and has no clue how to handle it.

Annie,

One of my first thoughts concerning Kristin was are we forgetting that she is just a teenager with very little understanding of her feelings

I too feel that Kristin's new awakenings into womanhood is a bit for her to understand, and to try to restrain.  Erlend is the one taking full advantage of her youthfulness. But, the writer keeps telling us how Kristin seems to see the red flags, but continues to ignore them.  Regardless of how old she is, she does know what she is doing is not only causing her hurt, and shame, thus bringing her to wanting to confess. 

I haven't found myself feeling sorry for Kristin, because I feel after what happened with Arne and Bentein, she should have understood what her behavior caused, and not repeated it.  At some point she must start taking responsibility for her behavior, and realize just how much it affects others. She has spent a year in the convent, she knows right from wrong, and she has been taught through the faith how a young girl/woman should behave.  The nuns may be lax in their supervision of her, but she does continue to sneak out, and even allow herself to meet up with Erlend at a house of ill repute.  She is risking herself being known as a prostitute. Erlend is being self indulging, and if he truly loved her and valued her, he would never want her near a place like this.  When Simon shamed him in front of Kristin, I would have felt that would have been enough for him to come to his senses and end the relationship.

Annie, I too wonder who the Queen and King are in the ballad.  I had posted earlier,  Did anyone feel the ballad Sivord the Dane sang, reminded you of the story Erlend had shared with Kristin?  Does it also give you a strange feeling this too is what Erlend in intending for Kristin?  To lead her from her family, taking her from Simon, who she has been betrothed to?

Well, it seems the ballad indeed is exactly what Erlend intends.  I do not see this ending in.... they lived happily ever after.

[BarbStAubrey]

Need to get caught up  - be back later today...

[PatH]

At some point she must start taking responsibility for her behavior, and realize just how much it affects others.

She gets halfway there after talking to Brother Edvin.

Chapter 6, first page: "Up until the day when she gave Erlend her promise, she had always tried diligently to do everything that was right and good, but she had done everything at the bidding of other people.  Now she felt that she had grown up from maiden to woman.  This was not just because of the passionate caresses  she had received and given.  She had not merely left her father's guardianship and subjected herself to Erlend's will.  Brother Edvin had impressed upon her the  responsibility of answering for her own life, and for Erlend's as well, and she was willing to bear this burden with grace and dignity.

From this point on, she is aware that her decisions are hers, and is willing to accept blame and consequences for them (Erlend's actions too, which seems a bit much).   What she still hasn't quite faced is the effect her actions have on innocent bystanders.

[BarbStAubrey]

Added to that Pat, in the introduction in my copy of Norwegian Folk Tails it says, - in the middle ages, when most of the tales found and cataloged during the early nineteenth century, were the stories shared and passed down among generations, the stories depict the tremendous imagination of the people that believed strongly in their independence and self-relieance - (this collecting of 'folk' stories coincides with the Grimm Brothers collection and the F.J. Child collection in the British Isles)

A Norse History was compiled that tell how everyone complained with tales that always 'belittled the king'. The king is spoken of as if a fat, genial farmer and representatives of the church and their laws are treated irreverently. Nevertheless, standards of guilt and justice prevail, and moral law is present. Trolls are awesome but stupid and are invariably outwitted and vanquished. The hero is usually the Ash lad, the one who stays by the home fires and is often poking at the ashes. He is the dreamer, kind and honest and possesses an open, unprejudiced mind, often of humble birth but who surmounts overwhelming obstacles to win bride and money. The Ash Lad is most often despised by the parents and his own brother and parents.

Which sounds to me like a young man we would think was good husband material is not appreciated by parents and if Kristin is growing up she too would take on the values of a parent. That to marry the good and noble means she is no more than the bride that goes with the money - in order to have some autonomy and personal worth she is on her own since the laws of the Church are scorned and the King's law of the land are treated lightly she must be self-reliant, take risks and through trial and error, make her own rules and make her own way much like the Vikings who remain the icons for a brave and adventurous life.

[bellamarie]

Well, once Kristin has besmirched her name and her family's name, she will indeed need to be self-reliant, and possibly have to deal with the dung:  

pg. 132  "But now I do scarce know what the end will be," said he.  "Maybe I shall sit at last on a mountain croft like Bjorn Gunnarson, and bear out the dung on my back as did the thralls of old, because I have no horse."  "God help you for sure__I trow I know more of farm_work and country ways than you."  "I can scarce think you have borne out the dung-basket," said he, laughing too.  "No; but I have seen how they spread the dung out__and sown corn have I, well nigh every year at home.

Yes, PatH., once Kristin goes to confess her sins I felt she would come to her senses.  As soon as Erlend returns she acts even worse than before, allowing herself to go to Erlend at the house of prostitution.  

I like how Lavrans points out to Kristin no upright man would act as Erlend has, knowing she was promised to another man.  He still has no idea who the man she loves is at this point.  I can only imagine what he will do once he finds out who he is.

pg. 172  "You are young yet, and not over-wise__and to cast his eyes upon a maid who is promised to another__tis not the wont of an upright man."

Kristin sounds like a child throwing a tantrum when she responds, "I cannot father.  Thus it stands, that should I not get this man, then you can take me back to the convent, and never take me from it again...I shall not live long there, I trow."

[Halcyon]

I don't begrudge Kristin her moments of happiness. She has never been allowed to lead her own life.  Now she is seizing every opportunity to experience freedom. She seems fearless, thriving on the clandestine meetings and play acting when necessary to escape the convent. I think of her as a heroine, bucking society's norm, standing up to her father and refusing to marry for money and land. Those moments of happiness might be her only ones.