Author Topic: Kristin Lavransdatter  (Read 88456 times)

StellaMaris

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #240 on: May 12, 2015, 06:24:28 PM »
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April/May Book Club Online


Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset




This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.

  I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.



Schedule: April 21-25  Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
          April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
          May 1 or 2-4, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3
          May 5-9, The Wreath, Chapters 4-8
          May 10-13, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 1-4
          May 13-?, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 5-8

Questions:

Jorundgaard
Chapters 5-7:
How much control did young people have over who they married?
Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying?
Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon.  Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal?
After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip.  Should she have avoided these?
What do you think of Simon?
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly.  Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?

The Wreath:
Chapters 1-3

Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely.  Does this this seem realistic?  Does Erlend feel the same way?
What is Erlend like?  Can you like or approve of him?
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance?  Is it binding?

Discussion Leader: PatH




Can someone help me understand the back story to Åashild Gautesdatter ? If I understand it correctly, she had been married to Baard Munanson, but is now married to Borg (?). There seems to be some suspicion around the death of her first husband, possibly poison? [she is acquainted with plants and medicines]. And as Erlend's aunt, she seems to be advocating for the couple to come together, even helping them along after the death of Eline; it is through her that Kristin originally heard of Erlend.

Could she be a symbol of the wild/ pagan/pre-Christian world that lurks at the edges of society in this story? That part that urges Kristin on to actions that seem driven by the irrational and emotional?
Fiat Lux!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2015, 06:45:48 PM »
StellaMaris I think you are on to something - I want to go back and look at the early exchange between Kristin as a young girls with Åashild - as I recall Kristin took to her.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2015, 07:27:58 PM »
PatH.,
Quote
I found the end of chapter 4 very touching.  At the end of a conversation with her father, Kristin realizes she has worn her father down, and he will no longer oppose her.  That night, he wakes her up to show her the breaking of the long freeze--the singing of the wind, the warm rain, the rumbling snow sliding away.

"Kristin reached for her father's hand and held it.  He had called her and wanted to show her this.  It was the kind of thing he would have done in the past, before things changed between them.  And now he was doing it again."

I too found this bittersweet.  But, did Kristin wear him down, or did the loss of his younger daughter cause him to yearn to be close once again to Kristin.  It breaks my heart that she kept her love from her parents, and from her own self throughout this time.  It's sad she is denying herself of happiness, in thinking Erlend is her only path to happiness.  

Each of us will read this story, and take from it what we individually feel and see, from a standpoint of our own upbringing, relationships with our parents, values, and teachings of our faith.  I don't feel this book has gone over my head, I think in fact it is a very simple deduction of choices in life.  I think with Christian faith being of importance, it shows how God has given us all the free will to choose for ourselves, good or bad, we have that free will.  Kristin is exercising her free will, and in so doing, is reaping and suffering from her own choices.  People have died at the hands of Erlend and Kristin's actions.  The fact they must live with this, can seem to be living in a state of hell.  I do believe for Kristin, her faith and the church is important to her, and I do feel that in time, something will happen to cause her to turn back to God, and to realize her choices are hurting not only herself, but so many others.  It may very well take Kristin finally getting to live with Erlend, to bring her to this epiphany.  Now don't get me wrong, I don't see anything simple in the lives they are living due to their choices.  It's like the old adage, "You are jumping from the frying pan into the fire", or "You can't see the forest for the trees." And one more, "You reap what you sow."

I have taught the Catholic religion for over twenty years, I have been versed in Bible study for years, by the best theologians, depicting behaviors of those in the Old and New Testament, and what we see as human nature vs God's will, and this story rings of a struggle with personal will and wants, in contradiction to following God's will and laws.  Nothing shows Kristin and Erlend belong together, other than their own self serving desires and wants.  Every thing has and continues to go against this union.  They are not only breaking man made laws, but are also breaking God's laws.  It has happened throughout time....go back into the early Bible, Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life, denying God, for their own temptations and pleasure.  The New testament, you have Judas betraying Jesus, for his own greed.  It really does not matter the place and time, it has been happening throughout all ages.  

I think Undset is doing a marvelous job in telling this story about the complicated choices we are faced with in life, and how our actions will not only affect ourselves, but others.  I am not finding so much as it is "offensive," as it is frustrating for me to see how they continue on the path of destruction.  It reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19, where Lot's wife neglected to fully obey God’s warning, to not look back.  We also have other verses I see that fit this behavior of Kristin and Erlend, and how they are destroying their relationship with God and family, for their own desires, and must one day atone for their sins and turn back to God.  

Ephesians 4:22-24 tells us to take off the old self that is ruled by sin and be renewed, putting on the new self that is in the likeness of God.

1 John 5:16 says that willful, deliberate sin can lead to death. Lot’s wife wasn't able to accept that. What she chose to value in her heart led her to sin, which led to her death.


I see a death in Kristin with the pain she is in, and the pain she sees she is causing for others, not to mention the fact she is living with knowing others have died in regards to her choices and actions.  I don't think she is indifferent to what she is causing for others, but I do believe she is now at a point that turning away from Erlend would be impossible, since so much death and hurt has become of this.

pg. 214  "Kristin," begged the lady fearfully, "surely you would not give up Erlend now?  You cannot be saved now except you save each other."  "So would a priest scarce counsel," said Kristin, smiling coldly.  "But well I know that never can I give up Erlend now__not if I should tread my own father underfoot."

Kristin sees no way out of this, but knows she will have to atone for her sins one day:

"Moster Aashild__are you never afraid of the day when you must stand before God's judgement?"
 

As for the statue, and why it was erected, I found this site.............  Warning....  I only looked at the statue and the words written about it.  Anything else on the page could be spoilers
 


The image at the top is (from what I could find) of a statue of Kristin Lavransdatter that was erected in Norway in honor of the character and of Undset’s immense achievement in writing the book. Undset received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1928 for Kristin Lavransdatter.

I personally am going to hope that this statue of Kristin is a semblance of her finding her way back to her faith and God.  I know as a Christian, our statues are to be reminders of the works, and strong faith those had during their lives.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2015, 07:44:07 PM »
Stella, we were posting at the same time.  Yes, indeed I do believe Lady Aashild, is misguiding Kristin to be with Erlend, and there is also some early suspicions that Lady Aashild, also has some kind of secret with Ragnifeld, Kristin's mother, before she married Lavrans.  Ragnfeld called Lady Aashild in to use her witchcraft on the baby when it fell and it's back was injured, after she felt the priest was of no use.  Also remember, they did not see any improvement in the child from Lady Aashild's visit  So, seems she has no more powers with her herbs and potions, than the priest does with his holy water and prayers.  God's will, is God's will as the priest tries to tell Ragnfeld.

Lady Aashild does seem to defy God with arrogance.  In my post above, Kristin is asking her about having to stand before God one day, and Lady Aashild's reply is:

pg. 214  "It may be I shall find courage to ask, Him that hath made me as I am, if He will have mercy on me in His own good time.  For I have never begged for His mercy when I broke His commands.  And never have I begged God or man to forgive me a farthing of the piece I have paid here in this mountain hut."

She says, "Him that hath made me as I am"  Does she feel God has some sort of responsibility for her being a sinner, or a witch person?

Notice how Lady Aashild, was the first to mention to Kristin about being with Erlend very early in the first chapters of the book, she also helps Erlend with his plan to sneak Kristin away from her parents, she decides to cover up the entire way Eline died, she drags her own husband in on it, and if that is not enough, when she thinks Kristin is wavering she says to her,   "Kristin," begged the lady fearfully, "surely you would not give up Erlend now?  You cannot be saved now except you save each other."

How does this even make any sense?  Why must Kristin believe in order to save herself, she must also save Erlend?  Kristin is only accountable for her own actions, and sins.  She can only mend her relationship with God through her own self.  

Lady Aashild seems more concerned for Erlend here than Kristin.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Halcyon

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2015, 08:32:35 PM »
Stella, i also see Fru Aashild as a representation of Undset's own spiritual journey. Her parents were atheists, she an agnostic until converting to Catholicism later in her life. Fru Aashild is an interesting character partly rooted in the world of magic, questioning God and celebrating Holy Dsys.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2015, 08:57:32 PM »
Fru Aashild married Baard Munansøn, the younger brother of Erlend's father.  Munan Baardson, Erlend's disreputable companion, is her son, hence Erlend's cousin.  Baard died under circumstances his relatives found suspicious, and Aashild left the country and married Bjørn without family consent.  The family tried to annul the marriage, claiming she had slept with Bjørn while her husband was still alive, and had poisoned her husband.  Nothing could be proved, but in the process they managed to strip Aashild of her money and possessions, which is why she is now poor.

Aashild's medicines couldn't cure Ulvhild, but some folk medicines work.  She knew how to ease Ulvhild's pain, and I'm sure she knew some poisons.  Plant poisons are pretty common.

StellaMaris:
Quote
Could she be a symbol of the wild/ pagan/pre-Christian world that lurks at the edges of society in this story? That part that urges Kristin on to actions that seem driven by the irrational and emotional?
She certainly could, and I'm sure you're right.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2015, 09:02:11 PM »
Should we finish up with this book?
Yes, let's do that.  Chapters 5-8.  We can finish up anything we have to say about this part tomorrow while we're reading.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #247 on: May 12, 2015, 09:12:02 PM »
Not having read this book it could be that the story is one of a spiritual journey for Kristin - certainly so far we see her making a place for herself as an independent women not bound by current tradition - I'm seeing this century for Norway as possibly a bridge time between the old religion and the new governess of Christianity - and even Christianity appeared to be at odds with itself since learning of Bishop Jon who saw a more Norwegian version of the church from Rome - so far we have not heard of the old gods, Thor and the tree, forgot what it was called - but did find this interesting bit...

Archaeologists unearth ‘unparalleled’ pre-Christian temple in Norway, March 16, 2012
http://freethoughtnation.com/ancient-unparalleled-pre-christian-temple-discovered-in-norway/

And here is a web site that goes into some of the explanation for Pre-Christian religion in Norway - forgot about the Sami but they are still an important mission for the Cathedral in Trondheim according to Britt-Arnhild Wigum Lindland who works at the Cathedral and does missionary work with the Sami  
http://brittarnhildshouseinthewoods.typepad.com/brittarnhilds_house_in_th/sami/

http://christianization.hist.cam.ac.uk/regions/norway/norway-pagan-non-christ.html
 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #248 on: May 12, 2015, 10:23:52 PM »
PatH.,  
Quote
Nothing could be proved, but in the process they managed to strip Aashild of her money and possessions, which is why she is now poor.

This would help me understand why Lady Aashild has so much disdain toward God.  She could be blaming Him, for her ruined life, after all she brags of never asking Him for mercy while breaking His commands,


So, I personally have come to a realization, that Lady Aashild is, a worshiper of pagan Gods, such as witchcraft, potions etc, and she seems to have a bit of a disdain for God our Almighty, thinking she can cure the sick, heal the lame.  That's giving herself supreme power.  I am coming to a conclusion, this is a war of good vs evil. 

If you remember the elf like person, who scared Kristin in the early chapters, there was concern for her safety.  Kristin confides this to Lady Aashild.  Scripture tells us to be on guard of the devil coming in sheep's clothing.  Lady Aashild, befriended Kristin early on, and planted the seed of being a perfect match with Erlend.  I have to ask myself is Lady Aashild using Kristin not only to keep her from her faith, but could the secret she has with Ragnfield also have something to do with Lady Aashild, ruining Kristin's life?

Eph 6:11-12 …11 Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the
schemes of the devil.  


Lady Aashild is representing Lucifer the tempter, and Kristin is representing the goodness of God.  As in the book of Genesis, we know who shall win out, in this battle.  I can hope the statue of Kristin, is a representation, of the goodness of God winning out. It would surely make sense in Undset winning a Noble Prize for this book.   

Since Kristin, is a fictional character, she could not be canonized a saint as Saul/Paul was, but she could be erected a statue.  I mean Saul was going against God with a mighty force, until he got knocked off his high horse.  What will bring Kristin to her transformation? 

I'm excited to read the next chapters....be back tomorrow.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #249 on: May 13, 2015, 09:07:49 AM »
StellaMaris, you will notice that there is now a heading inserted in your post at the top of the page.  When I'm not quick enough to be the first poster on a page (post numbers divisible by 40) I'm allowed to insert the heading like that.  I'm not allowed to change your post in any other way, so don't worry that I will mess with your words.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #250 on: May 13, 2015, 09:18:37 AM »
In talking about the significance of Fru Aashild, don't forget that she resembles the elf maiden who tried to lure Kristin with a wreath of golden flowers when she was seven.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #251 on: May 13, 2015, 01:56:42 PM »
I read too fast to catch what is turning out to be important - I went back and am really reading from just before Kristin meets Arne Gyrdsson as he is leaving town and all through that chapter and the next you can see how Simon takes over. Yes, after the hysteria at Arne's wake he comforts Kristin but it is him that talks for her even to her mother and enthusiastically gets behind her going to the convent as in his opinion it's in her best interest in order to "fix her" by socially educating her. He never imagines it would be a worldly knight she would meet but only thought of the other women she would meet - so I can see how Kristin would feel like she would only be an appendage to him for the remaining years of her life - plus, we know, as smart as Simon is presented he is not as wise as he thought and had not thought through all sides of Kristin going to the nunnery.

We know that Norway values its independence and pride if for no other reason we know this because of those they elevate to national figures and so Kristin not only wants her independence but to feel pride in herself as someone who risks that adventure.

Regardless the reputation for marauding, which among archaeologists is now in question, the Vikings sailed further around the world long before there was any comfort that the world was round and they made their home in a harsh cold climate doing it their way and they adapted the church to what they saw as practical and important - all headstrong risk taking and so I can see Kristin as a character foreshadowing the spirit of Norway caught between the old ways and the new Christian ways.

She could  not even morn the loss of her dearest friend without the uproar and personal confusion of what happened walking home from meeting Arne and at the wake, so she is caught in a whirlwind of unsettled feelings never truly having mourned the death of Arne. Because of the surrounding circumstances I would imagine based on my own experiences you then cannot let yourself take care of the sadness and emptiness as part of mourning because, it only brings up in your mind the uncomfortable, out of control feelings that now even those feelings are being hijacked and explained away by Simon. There are not many ways for a young woman to make her mark and she did not come out of all this as a Joan of Arc fighting for what she believed because even that is not clear to her - so she rebels little by little.

Then in these pages nothing good is said about the church, it's priests and monks except a few particular ones here and there - so to Kristin she is not hearing that revering the church and its representatives is how it is done - Christianity is still being sorted out in Norway - Europe for several hundred years had been incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire including half of Britain where as, Norway, Ireland, and northern England does not share that experience. Not only their independent nature but, the great physical distance from even the Kings who are Kings by virtue of the Pope having crowned them, is not the Norwegian experience.

And so how does a young women have a piece of herself and control over her life. She finds others taking control over her feelings and her sexuality and if she lives life as she prefers with full agency over her life, the only alternative allowed to women at this time in history is the private moments of motherhood or becoming a nun or an outcaste like Lady Aashild - this is not breaking the glass ceiling this is as we remember before the woman's movement in the 70s when we even thought to be a 'good' women we should be committed to home, hearth and making our men happy. Yep, I can see why Kristin is rebelling and following the call her body is making in an adventure with great risk in keeping with the adventurous spirit of a Viking.

Have to start the current pages I've been so busy re-reading. I thought I would make a chart to attempt making connections with the names and then got too caught up again in the story - ah so  - does anyone know if there is such a chart online - my quick look has not uncovered one.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #252 on: May 13, 2015, 03:02:05 PM »
Before we leave these pages, I was struck in this section how the author gives us at least a moment to see into and sympathize with so many of the characters.

Eline, although her plan to poison Erland and herself shows what a disturbed hysterical person she is, we see things from her view as she talks to Kristen and tells her that in ten years he will marry you off to one of his servants. Borg, crying out grief for his past.

And Lavrens! Anyone who has a child must hurt for him. Can't you feel the love and companionship he's had with his daughter all these years, in a marriage that hasn't given him much. He's between a rock and a hard place. he Knows that Erland will bring Kristen pain, yet if he denies her, how much pain will that bring? What would you have done?

And his wife, so locked in a past we don't understand. She knows her love and feelings are not important in this situation, and accepts it. How sad.

I think we wont understand these parents until we know more about their past.

Halcyon

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #253 on: May 13, 2015, 03:07:58 PM »
PatH In talking about the significance of Fru Aashild, don't forget that she resembles the elf maiden who tried to lure Kristin with a wreath of golden flowers when she was seven.

For me that only strengthens the idea of a spiritual journey, that tugging back and forth from one world to the other.

Barb  I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis.


PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #254 on: May 13, 2015, 03:12:59 PM »
Barb, I wish there were such a chart.  The only one I found had about 6 names on it and wasn't much use.  I was going to make one too, but it's a lot of work.

The Vikings were amazing sailors, especially given the crude navigation tools available to them.  Once they had accidentally found North America, they could get back to it using directions that amounted to something like "Go to where a lot of whales are spouting, turn left and sail for three days".

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #255 on: May 13, 2015, 03:29:41 PM »
Well, JoanK., we indeed learn much about Lavrans and Regnfrid in these next chapters.  It seems history is somewhat repeating itself with Kristin and her mother both being pregnant and keeping it a secret when they got married.  The only difference is Ragnfrid's baby was not Lavrans.  

Why did it not surprise me that Erlend forced himself on to Kristin before they were married, when he came for a visit in the Spring.  I seriously do not like this man.

As I suspected, Kristin is not going to know true happiness, because it comes at too high a cost.  It won't take Erlend long to stray, once he gets his way, has her for his wife, and sees their past will remain in the way of their happiness.  This will become tiresome to him real quickly.  He can own her body, but he will never own her soul.

These chapters also confirm my suspicions of Lady Aashild being the elf person in the early chapter, where Kristin looked into the pond. Lady Aashild is not really intending friendship to Kristin.  Devil in sheep's clothes for sure.  

pg.255  "Look now at yourself in the water, Kristin,"  said Lady Aashild, and Kristin bent over the tub.  She caught a glimpse of her own face rising up white through the water; it came so near that she saw the golden crown above it.  Round about, many shadows, bright and dark, were stirring in the mirror__there was somewhat she was on the brink of remembering__then 'twas as though she was swooning away__she caught at the rim of the tub before her.  At that moment Lady Aashild laid her hand on hers, and drove her nails so hard into the flesh, that Kristin came to herself with the pain.

Oh dear Kristin, what have you gotten yourself into?   :o :o :o
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

StellaMaris

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #256 on: May 13, 2015, 07:06:53 PM »
JoanK, ..."he knows that Erland will bring Kristen pain, yet if he denies her, how much pain will that bring? What would you have done?"

I have a 8 1/2 year old son and can't even begin to imagine the agony of watching him fall for a female version of Erland!

That said, it's stated often enough in this story that people around Lavrans think he is too "soft" on his wife and his children. I imagine a different father in those times might have shipped Kristin off to a convent out of the country or to a distant relative's estate, perhaps having a heart to heart with Erlend at the pointy end of a sword. Maybe because Lavrans knows well enough how it is to be in a less than spectacular marriage, he sympathizes with Kristin wanting to marry someone for whom she has a passion: " it could have happened to him too, he could have loved someone too."

Barb There is a list here if it helps:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Lavransdatter#Characters_in_Kristin_Lavransdatter

Also a chart here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Lavransdatter#/media/File:KristinLavransdatter_FictionalCharacters.jpg
Fiat Lux!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #257 on: May 13, 2015, 08:58:23 PM »
Oh wow - thank you, thank you StellaMaris - just perfect

OK for any of you that have Amazon Prime and access the free movies on Prime Instant Video there is a move of Max Von Sydow talking the story with artist drawings illustrating East of the Sun and West of the Moon. Interesting that you can get bits and glimmers of Untsed's Kristin from this fairytale - If we use typical literary symbolism that a marriage is symbolic for the joining of your natural self with your spirit then I could even see the Northwind as representing Erland assuming that out of all this Kristin connects with her true self.

Anyhow here is the story on Amazon Prime Instant Video told in a half an hour
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009ND20N0/ref=dv_web_wtls_list_pr_1_ba
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #258 on: May 13, 2015, 09:51:34 PM »
StellaMaris, those are great links.  Thank you.  Of course, if you work your way down in the genealogy, you can figure out some things that are going to happen.  I was interested to find out that Munan Baardson is a historical character.  I wonder if he did anything in real life except appropriate his mother's fortune, sleep around, and make vulgar cracks.

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #259 on: May 13, 2015, 10:25:11 PM »
Stella, Thank you for the list.

Stella,
Quote
"he sympathizes with Kristin wanting to marry someone for whom she has a passion."[/i]


He does state after the marriage:
pg 266 "Ay, ay__maid or woman, at least she is come to the bride-bed with the man she loves.  And 'twas not so with either you or me, my poor Ragnfrid."

But....Lavrans is feeling this way because he feels he and Ragnfrid were not able to have those feelings on their wedding night.  He has lived his entire life with Ragnfrid, not giving himself entirely to her heart and soul. Yet, Kristin and Ragnfrid have lived a lie, hiding from him truths of what they have done.  He has felt bad for not being able to give Ragnfrid his heart, even though he has been the best husband and father possible in all other ways, all the while she has kept her secret of being pregnant by another man, when she married Lavrans, just as Kristin has kept her secret of being pregnant before marriage.

He knows in his heart Erlend is not worthy of his daughter, he knows she has had sex with him outside of marriage, by her looking up at Erlend on the bridal bed. Lavrans is heartbroken he could not save her from this horrible creature.  The last pages of this book tells how overwrought he is about her being married to Erlend.  

These words Lavrans expresses just tore my heart out.

pg. 264  "Oh, never, never, never should I have given her to that man!  God help me__I must have known it all the time__he had broken down her youth and her fairest honour, I believed it not__nay, could I believe the like of Kristin?__but still I knew it.  And yet is she too good for this weakling boy, that hath made waste of himself and her__had he lured her astray ten times over, I should never have given her up to him, that he may spill yet more of her life and her happiness."

"See you not __he has her now wholly in his power__he that have never been man enough to rule himself..."Twill go hard with her before she finds courage to set herself against aught her husband wills__and should she one day be forced to ti, "twill be bitter grief to her__my own gentle child__

"...Now am I come so far I scarce can understand why God hath laid so many and such heavy sorrows upon me__for I have striven faithfully to do His will.  Why hath He taken our children from us, Ragnfrid, one by one__first our sons__then little Ulvhild__and now have I given her that I loved dearest, honourless, to an untrusty and witless man.  Now is there none left to us but the little one__and unwise must I deem it to take joy in her, before I see how it will go with her__with Ramborg."


Then in his conversation with Ragnfrid, as if he is not hurting enough, she finally admits to him she was pregnant by another man, and that Lavrans was such a young boy, and she much older, forced into the marriage. 

Haven't we all at one point or another felt what Lavrans expresses about doing God's will, yet bad things happen, and we just question why, and what next?  Yet, we see others taking as they want, like Erlend, committing sin after sin, yet come away not only being absolved, but winning Kristin, and all the wealth.  Well, I fear his happiness is going to be short lived, and not that you wish bad on people like him, but you just know he is headed for a crash.

I don't fault Lavrans for not being more strong, with Kristin, although Stella, I like how you think, sending her off to a convent far, far away, and dealing with Erlend with a sword does sound good to me, at this point.  
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PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #260 on: May 14, 2015, 09:50:14 AM »
Lavrans was ready to deal with Erlend with a sword a couple of times.

Well, a lot has happened in this section.  Kristin and Erlend have finally been able to marry, just in the nick of time, and we learn what's been eating at Ragnfrid all these years.  Ragnfrid has been married to a good man who doesn't love her, and her daughter has now married the man she loves, and who loves her, but he's definitely not a good man, and poor husband material.  Ironic contrast.

Ragnfrid wasn’t necessarily pregnant when she married Lavrans.  He asks her whose child it was, and she answers she doesn’t know.  Can you imagine her anguish, when her newborn son, beloved whoever the father is, is dying and she doesn’t dare pray for him to live?

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #261 on: May 14, 2015, 02:35:56 PM »
PatH.,  Yes, you are correct, Ragnfrid says she did not know who the baby belonged to.  But I guess what was enlightening, is her confessing she was not a virgin when she married Lavrans, something he was not aware of.

We learned a lot in these chapters, but what we still don't know, is what exactly does Lady Ashild have to do with Ragnfrid's past, and what does she intend to do with Kristin's future?  It is obvious she does not have anything good in mind from the way she nearly crushed Kristin's hand. 
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PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #262 on: May 15, 2015, 11:26:29 AM »
Two very minor but interesting bits:
Munan Baardsøn's take on St Olaf's early life, said when he is trying to convince Lavrans that Erlend's impure past is no bar to marriage.
"my dear Lavrans, it's true that pure living is an admirable thing, but it's hardly within the powers of a grown man unless he is particularly blessed by God.  By Saint Olav--you should keep in mind that the holy king himself was not given that blessing until the end of his life on earth.  It was evidently God's will that he should first produce the capable boy-king Magnus, who repelled the heathens' invasion of the north,  King Olav did not have that son by his queen, and yet he sits among the highest of saints in Heaven."

Pagan sacrifices.  In chapter 5, it's described how, during the dreadful winter, some people went into the mountains and sacrificed animals in the way described in Barb's archaeological link.  Sira Eirik and some of the men went and smashed the indecent altar stones, which were bloody and surrounded by bones.

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #263 on: May 15, 2015, 01:59:48 PM »
What I found really irritating, is when Sir Baard was trying to convince Lavrans to agree to the wedding he said:

" 'Tis plain to me, Lavrans Bjorgulfson, that what goes against my cousin most with you, is that he has had these hapless dealings with Sigurd Saksulvson's wife.  And true it is that 'twas not well done of him.  But in God's name. man, you must remember this__here was this young boy dwelling in one house with a young and fair woman, and she had an old, cold, strengthless husband__and the night is a half-year long up there: methinks a man could scarce look for aught else to happen, unless Erlend had been a very saint.  There is not denying it: Erlend, had made at all time but a sorry monk; but methinks your young, fair daughter would give you little thanks, should you give her a monkish husband.  True it is that Erlend bore himself like a fool then, and yet greater fool since...But the thing should not stand against him for ever__we his kinsmen have striven to help the boy to his feet again; the woman is dead; and Erlend has done all in his power to care for her body, and her soul; the Bishop of Oslo himself hath absolved him of his sin, and now is he come home again made clean by the Holy Blood at Schwerin__would you be stricter than the Bishop of Oslo, and the Archbishop at Schwerin__or whoever it may be that hath charge of that precious blood...?"

What is not known at the time of this absolution  Baard speaks of for Erlend, is I can bet Erlend did not confess just exactly how Eline died, and what hand he had in her death, and the lies to have her burial.  So here he is even being untruthful to the Bishops. 

Lavrans knows Erlend is not true on his word and he tests him at the table when he confronts him on not bringing back his cart.  Erlend doesn't even remember he did not return the cart to Lavrans.  Lavrans makes the point to him, that when you give your word and someone helps you out, then you should honor it.  That went over Erlend head altogether.  This truly shows how Erlend feels entitled.  He has not only duped Kristin, but he has duped those close to him and even the Bishops.  Nothing good can come of all his lies.

Also, Baard tells us that Erlend and Eline were both young.  So Erlend saying she was older, and seduced him is not true.   

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JoanK

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #264 on: May 15, 2015, 03:36:50 PM »
BELLAMARIE: "This truly shows how Erlend feels entitled"

"Entitled" is the perfect word for Erland. the universe owes him whatever he wants, and if he is asked to pay for it, he shrugs it off or is angry.

Already, he is forcing Kristen to have sex when she doesn't want to. And already, she is beginning to resent him.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #265 on: May 15, 2015, 04:09:39 PM »
Yes, Bellamarie and JoanK, you've got Erlend's number all right.  And he's totally uninterested in taking trouble over something that isn't important to him at the moment, like the wagon, no matter how important it is to somebody else.  Not promising husband material.

Eline really must have been at least 5 years older than Erlend, though, and probably more, because she had been married to Sigurd for seven years when she and Erlend started the affair, and Erlend was only 18.  It's impossible to know for sure who was the seducer, but even if it was  Eline, I bet she didn't have to work very hard at it.

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #266 on: May 15, 2015, 04:15:51 PM »
Did you notice this in Munan Baardsøn's speech:
"Do you intend to be harsher than the Bishop of Oslo and the archbishop or whoever it is down there who presides over the precious blood?"
Munan is really indifferent to religious matters.  That's a hugely sacred relic, and he doesn't know anything about it.

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #267 on: May 15, 2015, 07:02:16 PM »
But bear in mind, the Bishop or Archbishop I am certain, had NO knowledge of Erlend's hand in Eline's death, that Eline was pregnant, and that he had seduced Kristin, and brought her to a brothel to have sex with her.  I would bet the only thing they felt they were absolving him from was his behavior with Eline, when she was married to Sigurd. 

Back then young girls were handed over to men at the early ages of 12 yrs old, so if she was with Sigurd for seven years she could indeed be just a year or so different than Erlend.  Baardson did not give any indication Eline seduced Erlend, just that it would have been expected to happen with two young people in the house, and he mentions, Erlend would have had to have been a saint not to have sex with her.

Yes, JoanK., Erlend has already shown Kristin he will take what he wants, when he wants it.  And when he tires of it, as Eline said, he will go on to another.  Kristin was a means to an end with Erlend.  Having her was like a conquest, he got good with the king, got absolved, got wealth, and showed Lavrans he could take his daughter from him.  I still feel Lady Aashild had something to do with Erlend going to the convent to meet up with Kristin, and to seduce her.  We have not heard the last of why Lady Aashild has it out for Kristin, and what she has to do with Ragnfrid's past.

PatH., Good point, Munan Baardson has no use for religion.  He almost sees it as a mockery.  I mean after all, he sees Erlend being absolved, knowing what all he has done, and is still getting away with.  He is probably sitting back laughing at everyone.
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StellaMaris

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #268 on: May 15, 2015, 07:10:09 PM »
Ha! Munan and Erlend do indeed make two peas in a pod. They are both flippant and looking out for number one. I suspect they are both the sort of men who will bring trouble upon themselves and yet somehow manage to remain unsinkable, going their self-involved way. They both appear to see the sacrament of confession only in legalistic terms.

There is a truth, however, in Munan's words when he points out that Lavrans is being too scrupulous when he charges him as being "stricter than the Bishop of Oslo." Whatever we know about the thoroughness of Erlend's confession, it is fair for Munan to point out that we must think the best of him at this point.

PatH This occasional mention of the pagan element seems to lurk about the story like the sight of wolves in the forest. It serves as a reminder that this society is not yet entirely Christianised and points out the larger truth that "Satan ever prowls about the world seeking the ruin of souls"--including those in this story.
Fiat Lux!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #269 on: May 16, 2015, 01:04:56 AM »
Interesting - something about this quote from Anthony Bourdain, the famous chef, who is visiting Austin this week - anyhow this interview remark reminds me some of what I would expect to come out of the mouth of Erlend and maybe even Munan and maybe even out of the mouth of Kristin. All headstrong people who have to do things their way.

You’ve had some pretty famous feuds. When should a person start a feud with someone publicly?

I guess my threshold for feud is weird. It’s like, by all means feel free to say you find me just generally repulsive, that you hate me, you hate my work, that you think I’m an asshole. That I’m ugly or stupid or offensive. All of those are completely legitimate areas to criticize me or attack me in public, and I’ll probably shrug my shoulders. Where I get into a feud is if I feel like you’ve lied about me. Or that you’ve willingly misrepresented me in a way I really don’t want to be misrepresented. Or if you’ve misrepresented, or lied about, something I feel very passionate about — like food. If you’re going to have an enemy, it should be someone who you respect. My arch-enemy, Alan Richman who I wrote about having a feud with, we actually get along very, very well now and have snuck out for dinner together on more than one occasion. I feel happy about that. I enjoy having an epic battle, but I can change my opinion about a person, and I respect people who can change their opinions.



“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #270 on: May 16, 2015, 11:32:03 AM »
Yes, Stella the two of them indeed see confession as not only in a legalistic way, but, it also helps them gain favor back from those who hold them accountable for their bad behavior and sins.  I can't see Erlend going to the priest and confessing all he has done.  He is a man with an alter ego, and on a mission to rise up to the levels of King and ruler.  Most men with those aspirations will not allow Christianity and all it's spiritual beliefs get in his way. He may have gotten his absolution from the Bishop and Archbishop, but the one person he will never be able to get to see him in the eyes he wishes, will be Kristin.  She knows they have done things terribly wrong against man and God, and her feelings for Erlend will forever be marred by this knowing at what expense their happiness has come from.  

pg.  258 "I am thinking," said Kristin, cold with dread," on all them we have brought to sorrow that we might see this day"

"I am thinking on her who had to pay with her life, because she held Erlend dear," she whispered shivering."

"Well if you come not to pay with your life yourself, ere you are half a year older,"  said Lady Aashild harshly.  "Be glad while you may__  "What shall I say to you, Kristin?" said the old woman in a while, despairingly.  "Have you clean lost courage this day of all days?"  Soon enough will it be required of you twain that you shall pay for all you have done amiss__have no fear that it will not be so."

But when she and Erlend knelt together in the wedding_mass, all around her seemed but some trickery of the sight__the tapers, the pictures, the glittering vessels, the priests in their copes and white gowns.  All those who had known her where she had lived before__they seemed like visions of a dream, standing there, close-packed in the church in their unwonted garments.  But Sir Bjorn stood against a pillar, looking at those two with his dead eyes, and it seemed to her that that other who was dead must needs have come back with him, on his arm.

She tried to look up at Saint Olav's picture__he stood there red and white and comely, leaning on his axe, treading his own sinful human nature underfoot__but her glance would ever go back to Sir Bjorn; and nigh to him she saw Eline Ormsdatter's dead face, looking unmoved upon her and Erlend.  They had trampled her underfoot that they might come hither__and she grudged it not to them.

It seemed to her she was kneeling with Erlend on a cold stone.  He knelt there with the red, burnt patches on his pale face; she knelt under the heavy bridal crown, and felt the dull, crushing weight within her__the burden of sin that she bore.  She had played and wantoned with her sin, had measured it as in a childish game.  Holy Virgin__now the time was nigh when it should lie full-born before her, look at her with living eyes; show her on itself the brands of sin, the hideous deformity of sin; strike in hate with misshapen hands at its mother's breast.  When she had borne her child, when she saw the marks of her sin upon it and yet loved it as she had loved her sin, then would the game be played to an end.


It gave me chills reading:   Soon enough will it be required of you twain that you shall pay for all you have done amiss.  

Sir Bjorn stood against a pillar, looking at those two with his dead eyes

"The dead woman had shaken herself free of them all.  He would have me and I would have him; you would have him and he would have you, said Eline.  I have paid__and he must pay and you must pay when your time comes.  When the time of sin is fulfilled it brings forth death.  .  ."

And then this....He lifted up her face a moment, looked down into it, and drew his hand down over her face and body, with a strange haste and roughness, as though he tore away a covering.  "Forget," he begged, in a fiery whisper," forget all, my Kristin__all but this, that you are my own wife, and I am your own husband. . . "  With his hand he quenched the flame of the last candle, then threw himself down beside her in the dark__he too was sobbing now:  "Never have I believed it, never in all these years, that we should see this
day.  .  ."


I have great fear for what is in store for Kristin and possibly her baby, I feel she has been a part of Lady Aashild and Erlend's plan all along.  There is something Lady Aashild has out for Kristin, that could have to do with her past, and Ragnfrid's.  Lady Aashild said to Kristin, "Think on your own child," said the lady,  "Be glad that you are drinking at your wedding with him who is its father."

This reminded me of Ragnfrid's confession of being pregnant on her wedding day, not knowing who the father of her baby was.  Is Erlend truly just a nephew of Lady Aashild's, or could he secretly be her son?  Something just feels off here.

PatH.,  This occasional mention of the pagan element seems to lurk about the story like the sight of wolves in the forest.

Yes, we are told by scripture to always be on guard,

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

A few wolves I am seeing are, Lady Aashild, Sir Bjorn, and Erlend.  

Barb, I fear Kristin's headstrong, stubbornness, may have gotten herself into more than she could ever imagine.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #271 on: May 16, 2015, 03:39:05 PM »
Pat was commenting on the side by side lifestyle that included the 'new' Christian attitudes, that were not the same as the beliefs of Rome, and they still practiced Old Norse pagan elements that in every culture, the church adapted and adopted some of those very same pagan attitudes and ways of worship - Even the church at this time in history was still forming itself - there still was not the Cannon Law that Jesus was God and Man - it had been fought over and those who believed one way or the other without believing Jesus was God and Man were called Heretics but it was not Cannon Law till 1417 at the Council of Trent.

The overarching attitude about marriage at this time in church history and still, to a measure is active although, some change was creeping in during the twentieth century, is that celibacy was superior - most of us can even remember as children attending Catholic School being told it was more difficult for our parents to get to heaven then the nuns and priests - and some nuns even said parents, because of their having children could not get to heaven - this all was the result of the Desert Fathers who after Christians were no longer fed to the lions wanted to create a life with as much difficulty as earlier to show their love and devotion.

Even St. Paul says, "Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Teaching that marriage is a last resort for Christians who could not take control and remain chaste.  

As a married women I always had it in for St. Monica the mother of St. Augustine, who as a Church Father, wrote the most difficult attitudes about women and marriage - she prayed for 20 years that not only would he become Christian but that he never marry so he could be a leader among Christians - he lived for 13 years with a women of lessor rank than his mother thought seemly and had a son but then abandoned both in order to marry an heiress to please his mother.

The history of the church is not based on the way of thinking we enjoy today - much of what we value today came from centuries of power struggles that led to laws adapted by the church that form our thinking today - there was much the church did to scare folks to ward off civil unrest - we can too easily forget that where the church was active it was also running the government, as today we see Iran that embraces Sharia Law as the law of the land - in Norway during the 14th century the church was still being formed and was not yet, nor did it ever in this land of independent people, become the law of the land as it did in most other European Nations. On top of which we need to remember the Church in Rome was still forming itself - We are reading about a time in history before the Schism, when we had three popes all vying for power and before many of the edicts we take for granted did not yet exist and when Popes and Cardinals did not have to be ordained priest and so the church was very political.

Reading in this story all this guilt is seeing how behavior was controlled with traditional-community-acknowledged-symbols would be like today, many who during the 60s rebelled against the Viet Nam war by burning the flag, our symbol for the nation and for some as sacred as the blood of a saint is for a religious group - most grown folks I talk to today have a guilty laugh and toss off their lack of respect to their impetuous youth but then, we do not have members of the community pointing and gossiping and affecting their acceptance in the community to even affecting their ability to earn as a life long punishment, much less the fear there is some secret power that could kill or maim your children -

We read book after book about the history of the church and we learn that these symbolic traditions surrounding weddings and other holidays came from the pagan traditions practiced in each corner of the globe, traditions held long before Christianity and the success of the Church had been and is still is, that it always wove the principles of Christ within the old pagan beliefs in order for the people to understand and then that woven cloth of Christianity and Pagan became the seamless expression of the 'new' religion.

Part of the guilt that both Kristin and Erlend feel is as much placed on them by the expectations of the community as the idea of breaking the laws of the church - the laws of the church are not etched in rock and the people at the time had as much to do with deciding right and wrong then the punishment of the church - the only power over people the church had was guilt, shaming through public acts expected by the confessed sinner or excommunication, which was no different then being shunned - the only sin that brought on the inquisition was political and who accepted the religion in a nation governed by virtue of the church where as, in Norway during the 14th century the church was not yet in control - the Barons had more control and folks still really believed in Fairies, Trolls and Giants, that the earth was flat and the sky was a huge dome that would leak and if it leaked too much it could break flooding them all and the earth was held up by large tree trunks.

To me my take is seeing this man-made un-necessary guilt is sad and yet, these are our ancestors that we have to thank for living as best they could with so many different fears and thinking their behavior was the cause of and supposed to ward off as serious a matter as a death or condition of the birth of your child - knowing medicine today how sad is this - they still have the black plague to experience and we today, whose heritage is European are the product of those who were about half the population that lived through that disease.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Halcyon

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #272 on: May 16, 2015, 04:19:07 PM »
Barb, I agree with you about the guilt placed on Kristin.  I am reading the second book, The Wife, and I can say that so far in my reading the church has not been a friend to Kristin.  It makes me angry that she can be judged so harshly when the parish priests have bastard children for all the world to see.  Hypocritical.  Controlling by guilt is not loving nor is it healthy.  I understand that the church is made up of humans who are not perfect but it seems like the bishops and priests thought themselves exempt from the rules they were trying to force upon everyone.

PatH

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #273 on: May 16, 2015, 04:28:55 PM »
Quote
This occasional mention of the pagan element seems to lurk about the story like the sight of wolves in the forest.
StellaMaris, I love that.  It's so exactly the feel of the story.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #274 on: May 16, 2015, 05:58:50 PM »
"the bishops and priests thought themselves exempt from the rules they were trying to force upon everyone" Halcyon that appears to be the story of power -

Look at the US Congress today - During the Middle Ages according to a PBS film I recently watched being close to God and representing God was as powerful a position possible - thinking about how so little was known about the disasters that happened and how it was all tied to omans and the result of not following some law that was supposed to prevent bad things from happening -

Those living before as late as the eighteenth century had no real knowledge of the human body, medicine, how storms came about on and on - for thousands of years there was a god for everything till western religion, Judaism or Christianity said there was only one God and so all the fears were placed on the doorstep of this one God and if you are a spokesmen for this one God you were next to God and in the most powerful position -

There is an old saying something about ultimate power corrupts and it takes the best of men not to be corrupted. Think on the Borges who ran the church from Rome.

Halcyon I do find the history of the church fascinating - but then having been educated by the Benedictines and the Carmelites who both encouraged learning the history of how the church evolved I found as you say the church is a collection of people, some with the attitudes of St Francis of Assisi similar to our current Pope and some assuring continuation like Pope Clement I, 92A.D. and the more current Benedict XVI and some who push and make the church more than it was like St. Gregory and Pope John XXIII of this century who convened Vatican II - and then the many who allowed their power to corrupt and for instance reading the life of Saint Hildegard of Bingen we learn she was busy scolding the Pope and Luther, who after visiting Rome was so horrified he became the movement that was the Reformation.

It is fascinating to learn how church history is tied to the history of the western world just as much as the history of the western world is tied to the history of the church.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Halcyon

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #275 on: May 16, 2015, 07:17:38 PM »
It is fascinating to learn how church history is tied to the history of the western world just as much as the history of the western world is tied to the history of the church.

Barb,  I agree. The history of the church is fascinating and you are fortunate to have been educated by such enlightened clergy. I also find it fascinating how pagan rituals have been incorporated into Christian traditions. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #276 on: May 16, 2015, 10:46:59 PM »
We missed finding out about these Saints - St. Crispinus

Member of the imperial Roman nobility. Brother of Saint Crispian with whom he evangelized Gaul in the middle 3rd century. Worked from Soissons, France, they preached in the streets by day, made shoes by night. Their charity, piety, and contempt of material things impressed the locals, and many converted in the years of their ministry. Martyred under emperor Maximian Herculeus, being tried by Rictus Varus, governor of Belgic Gaul and an enemy of Christianity. A great church was built at Soissons in the 6th century in their honor; Saint Eligius ornamented their shrine.

    Because of his association with shoes, shoe-making, etc. a shoeshine kit is called a “Saint-Crispin”; an awl is “Saint Crispin’s lance”; and if your shoes are too tight, you are “in Saint Crispin’s prison.”


I knew I heard of St Crispian and sure enough in Shakespeare's Henry V

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-yZNMWFqvM

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #277 on: May 16, 2015, 10:50:08 PM »
oh wow St. Clement's church has more meaning than is obvious.

The night after King Olav II Haraldsson fell in the Battle of Stiklestad east of Trondheim on 29 July 1030, the body was laid in a simple wooden coffin, taken by boat to Trondheim and buried in the sandy bank further up the Nidelven river. According to the saga, those who did this were the farmer at Stiklestad, Torgils Hålmuson, and his son Grim. The following year the coffin was taken up and given a new grave outside St. Clement's Church in the town. Shortly after, on 3 August 1031, the coffin was again taken up and moved into the church, after the King had been examined and canonised by Bishop Grimkjell.

Part of the St. Olav altar frontal in Nidaros Cathedral (ca 1320) depicts Translatio Olavi, when Bishop Grimkjell on 3 August 1031 finds the body intact, sweet-scented and with hair and nails having grown since the King died. Encouraged by the people’s demand, he canonises Olav. "The King’s body was carried into St. Clement's Church and placed over the high altar. The coffin was covered with costly cloths. Soon many miracles took place because of King Olav’s holiness", writes Snorri Sturluson, our main source.


And then St. Clement's Church is named for this St. Clement - there are several including, according to some the second Pope after St. Peter and other Historians say the fourth Pope after St. Peter - however, this St. Clement's would hold a special place in the hearts of seafarer's as in a coastal town in Norway.

St. Clement's Church or Klemet's Church was one of the Roman Catholic parish churches of the old Oslo in Norway. The church was consecrated St. Clement, who was martyred by being drowned with an anchor tied around his neck and thus became the patron saint of, amongst other things, seafarers.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #278 on: May 16, 2015, 10:53:16 PM »
I see Kristin being extremely upset and yes, concerned about her being right with the church, but more so, I see her struggling with her own personal self.  She knows what she has done is wrong.  It's not about the church, or others shaming her and judging her, as much as she is feeling her accountability in what she has done to others who love her, and feels she has accountability for Eline's death.  This is self examination, wanting and needing forgiveness, because it matters to her.  

Kristin is basically a very good person.  She cares about others, she has been raised by good parents.  Nobody's perfect, but her parents have given her not only the love of her Catholic faith, but they have taught her about being a good human being.  Not through shame, judgement or chastisement from the church, but through their love and want for her happiness.  Kristin wanted forgiveness from the priest, mostly because she wanted to make right within herself.  She wants to be a good human being.   

As for Erlend being absolved, I don't think he could give a hoot about the church, it's laws, or faith, he just is looking to make things right with the King, and if getting absolution is what will get his favor back, then that's what he will do.

As for bishops and priest thinking they were exempt from the rules they were trying to force upon everyone, I personally see it as we all are sinners, regardless of what position we hold in the church, be it lay person, priest, nun, deacon, monk, bishop or Archbishop.  I'm not so sure I see the rules were being forced on anyone, because from the beginning of time God has given us the freewill to make choices.  Should clergy be expected to behave better, yes, but remember, their robes do not exclude them from sinfulness.  

I have not gone on into the next book yet.  Is everyone who is joining us in the trilogy ready to move on to the The Mistress Of HusabyPart One The Fruit of Sin is 100 pages (275-378)  Do we want to read it all in one chunk, or split it in half?  I don't mean to rush anyone, and we can surely continue discussing these chapters as well.  PatH., What do you think?  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

StellaMaris

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Re: Kristin Lavransdatter
« Reply #279 on: May 16, 2015, 10:55:53 PM »
Er...have we all moved on to The Wife at this point? I've stopped reading so I can go on with the group, where is everyone?  ???
Fiat Lux!