Kristin Lavransdatter

[PatH]

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April - June Book Club Online

Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset

This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.   I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.

Discussion Leader: PatH

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I find those scenes between Kristin and her sick father to be among the most moving in the book.  Undset adored her father, and we're probably seeing her feelings here.

[BarbStAubrey]

Halcyon I wish there was one basic book but alas bits of church history are found in many and then of those many, rooting out the ones that are playing fair and not selling their perspective - so much of Church history is wrapped up in the early groups like the Franks, Merovingians, Visigoths who held power for generations based on miraculous capabilities that could only be overpowered by new leaders if the new upstarts aligned themselves with God and so they had the Popes crown them to show they were in power by the authority of God - this was the beginning of the close association between Rome and the European powers - for the early connection the The Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany by Martin Kitchen is a good one to read

Constantine is the one who empowered the Church - prior to his conversion the Christ followers were still being thrown to the lions - Constantine not only brings with his conversion all those who live under his rule but he encourages and finances the first Ecumenical council, puts the cross on his standard and while I was researching the hatred for Jews prevalent in Europe I found that it seemed to have followed the Romans - how or what that was all about I have not continued to research however, did learn that when Constantine converted and changed his standard, his prior standard had a small Jewish symbol in the corner that he removed - it was also when the fires of Rome were blamed on the Jews since the fire started in the Jewish quarter - but greatest to the history of the Church, Constantine militarized the church with his army and all future European Kings continued the military arm of the church with their army - also the government system used in Rome was adopted hook line and sinker so that the Curia today runs exactly like the courts and government of the Roman Empire. A good one to read is The History of the Church: From Christ to Constantine by Eusebius and Andrew Louth

I think just read anything written by John W. O'Malley S.J. To see the politics of the church in action his book Vatican II is the best I have read - another that gives some good analysis is his book Four Cultures of the West

To get on the road of how various traditions were appropriated and the inaccuracies of the Bible and how all books written in the 2nd and 3rd centuries were called Bibles and what constituted the standard, the bar, that was used to include or exclude some of the Bibles - on and on, Bart D. Ehrman is good to read. He has great classroom series, an entire semester in The New Testament - he teaches Religion and Theology in the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies and the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

And on the History of the Popes, Professor Thomas Nobel of Notra Dame has an excellent CD package of 12 classes. Also, John O'Malley SJ has a book A History of the Popes: From Peter to the Present that like all his books is excellent.

As in all organizations to find the power follow the gold - with all its corruption a good one to read - God's Bankers: A History of Money and Power at the Vatican by Gerald Posner

And then Charlemagne was a key figure establishing the Holy Roman Empire and so nearly anything written about him will give you insight into the hows and whys - then to understand Luther it is good to first read how the Medici's held power in the Vatican.

As to the spiritual side and pastoral side of the church to me there is none better than Meister Eckhart - some like Thomas Aquinas and my sister, who does philosophy and was the Dean of the Philosophy department at St. Mary's on the Hudson cannot do without St. Anselm and my best friend Charlotte who passed in April could only breath deeply after reading Hildegarde Von Bingen who follows the rule of St. Benedict - for me I needed my fix, when life gives me another mountain to cross, by reading St. John of the Cross .

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  It is enlightening to know Undset was adoring of her father.  I decided not to learn too much about this author, or reviews of the book, since I worried of spoilers, or things to sway my views before or while reading the trilogy.  When reading those sections of Kristin and Lavrans, I simply teared up.  Their father/daughter love relationship was so very tender.  I grew up without knowing what it would have been to have my Daddy love me, and be there for me, since he was killed in a train/truck accident when I was only two years old.  I was always told he loved his six daughters and one son as if the sun came up for us.  The love Lavrans has shown Kristin throughout her entire life was what every girl would wish for.

I was so moved by the words and actions of Lavrans and Ragnfrid.  The two of them at some point in their marriage grew to love each other more than they ever knew.  Lavrans makes Ragnfrid understand that even though he had a very close loving relationship with Kristin, as his daughter, it was Ragnfrid he cherished for giving him all his children.  

This author could not have done a better job in conveying real human, raw emotions in these chapters.  I read them aloud to my hubby, and tears came to his eyes, and he said, "Wow, that is so sad, yet beautiful."

So, now Lavrans has had a funeral, fit for royalty.  Erlend seems to be embarking on getting himself involved in a war, possibly siding with the wrong people.  Where will this end up?  

[Halcyon]

Thank you Barb.  You've given me plenty to choose from.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, you are so right to avoid commentaries until you have actually read the book.

This section is full of raw emotions; best to be feeling strong when you start in on it.

There are several farewells here, and Undset is masterful at these scenes.  But she's also good at understating.  When Erlend has been stationed in the north for two years, and is about to go home, he and Gunnulf cross paths.  Gunnulf is heading north, on his way to become a missionary at last.  They talk, their conversation reflecting their deep love for each other, the jealousy over their parents' preference for Erlend, and the different paths they are taking.  Then they go to bed.

The two brothers lay there, each on his own bench in the little hut, and let their thoughts lull them to sleep.  A tiny ember smoldered in the hearth between them.  Their thoughts took them farther and farther away from each other.  And the following day one of them headed north and the other south.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the last time they see each other, but it might still be a kind of goodbye.

[bellamarie]

I like the relationship the brothers show.  Even though Erlend was the favored son, they do seem to be able to accept each other for who they are.

Yes, it was chapters of goodbyes, not only with people, but with traditions, and hurt, vented up feelings.  I saw honesty, closure and forgiveness as well.

Not to rush anyone, but are we ready to move on to Part III Erlend Nikulausson?   

[Halcyon]

I've already moved on to Part III

[PatH]

We still have things to say about this section, but we can say them today, while everyone (except Halcyon) is reading.  Let's take the first 4 chapters of part III, Erlend Nikulausson.

Barb, where are you in the book?  Is this OK? I don't want to leave you behind.

[PatH]

For those of you who are reading Archer: there's an omission in Chapter 6 of Husaby, about 4 pages from the end.  When he is about to leave for Denmark, Erlend is talking and Erling Vidkunssøn about the king:

     "Aye, 'twas wisely done of you indeed, to part the boy from his mother," said Erlend darkly.  "He is but a child yet--and already have we Norsemen cause to hold our heads high when we think of the King we have sworn fealty to--"
     "Be still! said Erling Vidkunssøn, low and vehemently.  "It--for sure it is untrue--"

The omitted paragraph explains what they are talking about:

     But the other two could see from his face that he knew it was true.  Although King Magnus Eirikssøn might still be a child, he had already been infected by a sin which was unseemly to mention among Christian men.  A Swedish cleric, who had een assigned to guide his book learning while he was in Sweden, had led him astray in an unmentionable manner.

So the young king was homosexual.

[BarbStAubrey]

shoot my entire post disappeared - I will catch up so go ahead - not much good can I share about what we just finished reading - I found the confession of Lavrans showing such a wasted life knowing that in God's eyes we are each unique with our own combination of skills, insight and outlook that in the name of man-made-traditions Lavrans lives up to those expectations that leave little room for him to fulfill his God given destiny -

I'm anxious to see how the political game plays out - it appears Erlend is not playing the game as the game players would prefer - we shall see if Erlend is oblivious to their agenda - or manipulating and the game players are not aware of what he is doing - or so true and loyal as a knight to the Norwegian King that he plays it straight with no thought of using his wits to affect secondary alliances.  

I did like the bit where he points out to Kristin's dad that Kristin giving him a hard time was fine and it was only an expression of her frustrations - to be that content in your own skin and strength that you can inwardly smile when a wife is needling you sure is not Lavrans experience and yet, Lavrans ability to create a peaceful calm and productive household and farm is not Erlend's experience or skill set.

Erlend and Gunnulf the black river and the white river touch and fork one traveling south and the other north.

[PatH]

It's surprising Erlend was so tolerant of the needling, considering how out of line Kristin was.  Later Lavrans told her he wouldn't have such rudeness in his house.

Poor Kristin, everything is rubbing her the wrong way.  She sees that her father is good friends with Simon in a way he isn't with Erlend.  Her children are poorly behaved, and when others criticize that, she takes it badly.  Lavrans is kind and affectionate toward Erlend, but she sees it is "the same tolerant tenderness that Lavrans had always shown toward every living creature he felt was less able to take care of itself."

[PatH]

What about Simon?  We learn more about him in this section.  He really did fall in love with Kristin while they were betrothed.  Disillusioned, he marries a rich widow.  They eventually have a child; she dies from this, but is happy thinking she has secured her inheritance for Simon, but actually the child has died first.  (This is an example of how carefully estates were tied up to ensure that property wasn't dissipated; if the child survives her, her estate goes to her husband, but if not, it reverts to her family.)

Why does Simon let himself be trapped into marrying Ramborg?  He seems reluctant all along, but doesn't try to squelch her, and lets things slide into a betrothal.

[bellamarie]

Simon feels he is too old for Ramborg.  He does not feel worthy of a young, innocent, maid's betrothal.  He is doing everything to dissuade her.  Then, Lavrans tells him he would be honored to have him as a son in law and the husband to his daughter.  Simon has always been close to Lavrans.  He is showing restraint, and respect, saying to wait a couple of years, the same way he did with Kritin, suggesting to Lavrans to send Kristin to the convent.  Lavrans knows he is in poor health, he wants Simon to marry Ramborg, so Erlend will not end up being her guardian.  Lavrans trusts Simon to protect his daughter, and the estate.  He knows Erlend has already shown you can not trust him by sneaking and selling Kristin's parcels.

This does indeed show how much love and respect these two men have for each other.  Ramborg has known Simon since a child, and is determined to be his wife.  She shows a determination, much like Kristin did with wanting Erlend, only Ramborg and Simon are willing to be patient, where Kristin and Erlend went head first caring for no one's feelings but their own.

Now that Lavrans and Ragnfrid have passed on, it will be interesting to see how Erlend and Simon get along in protecting the family estate.  Two men with entirely different personalities and values.

[Halcyon]

I wonder if Simon thought Ramborg would grow up to be Kristin like and even though he didn't win Kristin's hand he would have the closest thing to Kristin.

[PatH]

I wonder if Simon is even conscious of his own motives.  I agree that Ramborg is as near to having Kristin as he can get, and that his closeness to Lavrans is a big factor.  But he seems oddly reluctant.  After a conversation with Ramborg when she's fourteen, he has a conversation with Lavrans.  Afterward: "Then there's not much more to say, thought Simon.  And yet it was strange--here he sat, a man who had never intended to come too close to any virtuous maiden or woman, and now he was bound on his honor to marry a girl he did not truly want."

He had all sorts of clues that Ramborg was after him, and all sorts of chances to discourage her, but didn't take any of them.  So he's either very passive (which I don't think he is) or part of him is doing things he doesn't even realize he wants.

[PatH]

You've noticed the reappearance of the king of the mountains, or elf-king again, when Kristin looks once more at the golden spur left behind by the sons of a woman who had been lured away by him.

[bellamarie]

I think Simon did try to dissuade Ramborg.  He tried it gently so as not to hurt her feelings, knowing she is so very young.  He puts it off for two years, I felt hoping time would change her mind, but since Lavrans puts a bit of pressure on him, wanting him to be Ramborg's protector from Erlend being her guardian, Simon could not refuse Lavrans.  Their marriage seems to be working out.  As we have seen in the this story, many marriages do not rest on love alone.  Seems to be the norm in the Norse sagas. I think Simon will always be smitten with Kristin.  He will be there for her, and what better way to also watch over her than to be a family member.

Simon is proving so far to be a very respectful, caring, loyal person.  He has all the qualities Lavrans would want in a son in law.

PatH., 

You've noticed the reappearance of the king of the mountains, or elf-king again, when Kristin looks once more at the golden spur left behind by the sons of a woman who had been lured away by him.

Yes, and for some reason it made me feel danger ahead!

[BarbStAubrey]

Of all things I have been reading much about the brain and how our sense of self and our reaction to fear, anxiety, pleasure are an 5 levels - the social, physiological, neurological, cellular, and molecular - The book shows a diagram of how we act as a result of stimuli - We can take the long loop where we freeze for a second as we run the stimulation through our accumulated learning to choose the one we will use to act with - some take longer in that freeze mode but, for most of us living in an organized society it is normal to take that second.

Then there is the short cut where someone received a stimulation and acts in a nanosecond without thinking appropriate but only as if instinctive - this short cut action is vital for those in battle - it is how we train soldiers today to obey rooting out thinking - their life depends on the shortcut - however, it can become a lifetime habit and in today's society it shows itself when young men are bumped by another and take it as a personal offense pulling out their gun and shooting all in one swift step.

This difference is what I am seeing between Erlend and his family, the almost fortress house he lives in with his family that is the visual for a seaman warrior who certainly stays at sea for years at a time to fight those who would invade the borders - Where as Lavrans and all those from Kristin's childhood home live where they can take the long loop and since they engage their learning in their decisions they probably see the short root that Erlend takes as unfitting. However, Lavrans could not do the job Erlend does without loosing his life and the life of the men in his charge by utilizing the long loop to action just as Erlend is not able to run a farm and make himself indispensable guiding the daily life of his neighbors, tenants, slaves where as he can be a hail and good natured fellow secure in his strength, loyalty and good will for king and nobles - he does not access the long loop that would allow him to play the political games in which other nobles are engaged.

The bit about Kristin and her children tumbling in the living quarters at her father's, I read it as Kristin being put out by her family who did not accept her boys behavior that would be the natural training for boys who will grow up to take their father's place - she did not seem to scold them but contain them while in her father's house since those in her father's household showed such disapproval.    

It is easy for us to imagine the long loop approach to life is superior but we forget each has its place. Today we are in a civilized world where our life is not at stake every day - we think it is funny when we see some folks that we laugh suggesting 'they put their mouth in gear before accessing their brain' and we still access the short loop for instance when hammering or falling, or working near machinery - we do not stop and think how best to fall or which way to pull our finger out of the way - we just do it - just as a soldier is trained to shoot and ask questions later (if they ever do) - and that is the life of Erlend and probably of all those vikings that with his long noble heritage would be his history affecting his childhood and adult lifestyle.

Both Kristin and Ramborg as y'all have mentioned act with short loop thinking unless there is cunning behind their action - not sure yet about Ramborg but the only cunning I can see for Kristin is she did not want to marry Simon and she did not want her life to be a commodity where her father and mother arranged her future. It appears that part of the long loop stimulus to action at this time in history in Norway means accessing learning that includes a lot of obeying - both obeying rules and the wishes of others.

In terms explaining our view and understanding of the world Erlend would probably fit in as a Materialist - Materialism, already championed in ancient times by Democritus, Epicurus , and Lucretius, holds that there is nothing in the world besides matter. Where as the other monism is Idealism that could also be a way to look at Erlend Idealists hold that nothing exists in the world except our conscious experiences. Which is the thinking of, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Husserl, and Bergson. I am inclined toward a Materialistic view for Erlend even if he does not take care of his property. Where as Lavrans would more likely fit as a Dualist - Dualists believe that there are two worlds: one of mind, and one of matter. René Descartes believed that there is an exchange between the material body and the immaterial soul similar to the Christian Church that is an important influence and learning for Lavrans.

I am seeing this story less and less of good versus bad but simply of two different approaches to life - what is sad is that Erlend respects and admires Lavrans but Lavrans does not see Erlend with respect and yet, Erlend and his kind keep Lavrans and Norway safe from the marauding soldiers attacking the land. As to Erlend taking advantage of Kristin as a girl - it appears she was as anxious as he was to share their passion for each other and maybe that is what scares Lavrans - he never could completely control Ragnfrid and he may see that an organized life style means the man is in control - certainly with their age difference and the mannerism of Simon he must inwardly see Simon would be controlling Ramborg. Which will be different than Kristin having an almost equal footing with Erlend as they both have equally important skills with very different outlets for their well-being.

[bellamarie]

Well as suspected, Erlend proves to be unfaithful to Kristin as he was with Eline, so Eline's words have come back to haunt Kristin.  Erlend has now hit her twice and then blames her for his unfaithfulness.  Kristin reminds me of women today, who know they are in a bad relationship, but can't seem to get out, even though she seems to have a bit of a flight plan in the back of her mind. 

Now she blames herself:  "She confessed to herself this evening__she herself had driven him to breach of his marriage-vows by her coldness and by her venomous words."

[PatH]

Wow, Barb, that's a very interesting analysis--makes a lot of sense.  Lavrans is taking the long loop now, but he is capable of the short cut too.  In his youth he was a king's retainer, and fought well, leading men and achieving renown.  His body is covered with battle scars.  Interestingly, he likes Erlend best when they are both in short cut mode.  He first started to like Erlend when they were both franticly fighting the church fire.

Kristin certainly seems to be pretty much in short fuse mode.

[PatH]

This is an action-filled section, and I think no one will want to wait very long before going on.  Erlend catches Margret behaving the same way he and Kristin did at the start, and he certainly doesn't take it well.

We knew it would happen sooner or later; Erlend is unfaithful to Kristin.  He's angry at her hurtful words.  How would you apportion the blame?  Did anyone notice that Sunniva is the sister of Haftor, the man who flirted with Kristin and tried to seduce her?  It seems to run in the family.

Now Erlend seems to be in serious trouble.  What has happened, and how will he get out of it?

There is a beautiful scene near the end of chapter 4, starting with a lovely picture of Husaby, as Kristin is musing, and sees clearly what her life is about.  What does she think?  Is she right?

[bellamarie]

I am not surprised once Erlend realizes they are coming for him, he would immediately put Kristin, and his ten yr old son Gaute in danger, by asking her to hide papers in her bosom, and for Gaute to deliver the letters Ulf.

PatH.,

Did anyone notice that Sunniva is the sister of Haftor, the man who flirted with Kristin and tried to seduce her?

It would seem Sunniva is the one who snitched on Erlend.  Was it a plot she and her brother had?

pg. 575   Tore shouted; "You should try first, Erlend, whether your mistresses have skill to read writing, before you run about to nightly trysts with secret letters in your waist-band!  Ask you of Baard there who it was that warned us that you were hatching traitorous counsels against your King that you sworn troth to, and hold your place in fee from__"

I think Kristin has come to realize just how much she has given up, to be with Erlend:

pg. 579  Towards him she never grew wiser, never stronger.  She might strive to seem, in her life with him too, capable and brave and strong and pious, but 'twas not true that she was so.  Ever, ever had longing gnawed within her__the longing to be again his Kristin of the woods of Gerdarud.  In those days she had been willing to do all that she knew was evil and sinful rather than lose him.  To bind Erlend to her, she had given him all that was hers; her love and her body, her honour and her part in the salvation of her Lord.  And she had given him what she could find to give that was not hers: her father's honour and his trust in his child; all that wise and prudent grown men had built up to safeguard a little maid in her nonage she had overturned; against their plans for the welfare and advancement of their race, against their hopes that their works would bear fruit when they themselves lay under the mould, she had set her love.  Much more than her own life had she staked in the game, wherein the sole prize was Erlend Nikulausson's love.

pg. 580  She had chosen him herself.  She had chosen him in a frenzy of love, and she had chosen anew each day of those hard years at home at Jorundgaard__chosen his wild reckless passion before her father's love that would not suffer the wind to blow urgently upon her.  She had thrown away the lot her father had shaped for her, when he would have given her to the arms of a man who would surely have led her by the safest ways, and would have stooped down, to boot, to take away each little stone that she might have dashed her foot against.  She had chosen to follow the other, who she knew way straying in perilous paths.  Monks and priests had pointed the way of repentance and atonement to lead her home to peace__she had chosen turmoil rather than let slip her darling sin.

Unworthy is it to murmur at the lot one has chosen for oneself.__Holy Olav, help me that now I may not show me altogether unworthy of my father's love!

Once more Kristin breathed an Ave out into the evening glow.  Hail Mary, full of grace!  I pray thee but for none mercy, that see I now:  Save Erlend, save my husband's life__!

I read this and wondered, does Erlend deserve her love and loyalty?  He has treated her so badly, has been unfaithful to her, has put many people's lives in grave danger, not to mention his life, and his family's lives.  Kristin has indeed put her love of Erlend, above her love of God.  Where will this get her?

PatH., You are so correct, I don't think I can wait to read the next chapters to see what happens with Erlend.  We can discuss these chapters while reading the next if you like.  I am almost certain those who are still with us, may have read on ahead of us anyway.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  

We knew it would happen sooner or later; Erlend is unfaithful to Kristin.  He's angry at her hurtful words.  How would you apportion the blame?

Erlend has always blamed others for his bad choices, and bad behavior.  All marriages have problems, speak hurtful words to each other.  Kristin has had to bare the brunt of not only his hands striking her, but the incredible hurtful words he has said against her, and their children.  Nothing gives Erlend the right to go off like a wounded puppy, and sleep with another woman.  Now look what sleeping with Sunniva, has caused him.  Sunniva, has been flirting with him and he likewise has been inappropriate in front of Kristin before they ever did finally sleep together.  He dishonored Kristin in front of friends and family, and now she learns he has been a traitor to the King, which could result in his death.  So will Kristin take on this blame, as she did Eline's death?  

 

[PatH]

I presume everyone is reading on at this point.  As soon as you're ready, we can add the remainder of Erlend Nikulaussøn to the conversation.  That finishes off Book II.

[bellamarie]

Okay, I am now at the part where Simon has come to help Kristin, he has traveled with her to Oslo to hopefully meet with the King and be able to see Erlend. 

pg. 605  When they came to Oslo, Simon learnt that the King would not come to Norway__he was to hold the Yule_tide feast at Stockholm, it seemed.  Erlend was in the castle at Akersnes; the Governor of the castle was away, so that in the meantime 'twas not possible for any of them to see the prisoner.  But the Under-Treasurer, Olave Kyrning, promised to let Erlend know they were in the city.  Olav showed much friendliness toward Simon and Kristin, for his brother was wedded to Ramborg Aasmundsdatter of Skog, so that counted him a far-off kinsman of Lavrans' daughters.

With the family and respect of Lavrans and Simon, hopefully Kristin will get to find something out with all her travels.

[PatH]

Most of the people seem to be related to each other one way or another.  It was a big problem when it came to finding a spouse; third cousins or closer couldn't marry.  When Simon and Ramborg marry: "It was not often that two noble children from the same district were married--when all the branches of the lineage were studied, it was often found that the kinship was too close."

[bellamarie]

I only have 36 more pages to read before the end of Erlend Nikulausson.  I will probably finish that up today, since I am home alone, and the temps are cooler than normal here.  So, good day to read.

[PatH]

Much more than her own life had she staked in the game, wherein the sole prize was Erlend Nikulausson's love.

Look what comes next:

And she had won.  She had known from the first time he kissed her in the garden of Hofvin until he kissed her today in the little house, before he was escorted from his home as a prisoner--Erlend loved her as dearly as his own life.  And if he had not counseled her well, she had known from the first moment she met him how he counseled himself.  If he had not treated her well, he had nonetheless treated her better than he did himself.

[PatH]

We have three people who muse over their life choices and take responsibility for them.

Fru Ashild ended her days in poverty because of her choice, but claimed to be satisfied with her bargain, saying she had enjoyed drinking her fine wine, and can't complain that now all that's left is sour milk.  (We don't know how she felt when her husband killed her and then himself.)

Kristin says "It was shameful to complain about the fate she had chosen herself"

Does she regret it?  I think only partially.  Her whole monologue here is full of her feeling, still strong, for Erlend.  She regrets the downside of her choice, but accepts responsibility.

Lavrans was attracted to the Church as a young man, but the glitter of the world was too much for him, and he chose war, then marriage and family.  At the end of his life he feels that the highest good you can do is to serve God, but I don't think he would change his choice, which was also good.  I think his regret is only the wistfulness anyone might feel over the road not taken.

The all have in common the feeling that when you have made a choice you are responsible for it, and must live up honorably to its demands.

What do the rest of you think?

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, lovely - they are as satisfied with their life as their character allows them to be - I am thinking when you follow your own heart there are fewer regrets and where Lavrans bumbled along he did well with each experience but it does sound like he obeyed what was expected of him - Erlend would probably have been better if he had lived a couple of hundred years earlier - Kristin seems to me to be the bridge that represented the time in history for Norway - I've had all kinds of lunch and dinner appointments so little chance to post - hopefully tonight -

[bellamarie]

Oh dear, after reading the last chapters, I am so furious!

Simon leaves his pregnant wife to help Kristin hopefully free Erlend.  Kristin has left all her children behind including her little baby, to try to beg for Erlend's life.  Simon finally even convinces Erling Vidkunsson to come with him to plead to the King for Erlend's release, possibly putting himself, his family and many others at risk, and finally, the King agrees to release Erlend.  How does Erlend behave for a man who almost lost his life, and how does he show his gratitude?

pg. 639  They all sat there and listened to Erlend and chimed in with him, and he grew more and more like himself as he had ever been, wild and reckless.  _______________  Then the door opened and Munan Baardsson stepped in.  "Last came the great bull himself!" shouted Erlend, laughing, and leapt up to meet him.  "Help us God and Mary Virgin__I believe you care not a straw, Erlend,"  said Munan in vexation.  "Aye, deem you, then, it would help aught to whimper and sorrow now, kinsmen?"  "Never have I seen the like of you__all your welfare have you cast away__"  "Aye__for I was never the kind to go unbreeched to hell, to save my breeches from the burning,"  said Erlend, and Kristin laughed softly and dizzily.

Oh, all this was folly__her mind was set on having her own way, and she heeded naught else. 

"Aye, you think, I trow you were the man of Regent of the realm," said Munan scornfully.  "Nay, surely you know we had meant that place for you,"  laughed Erlend.  "In God's name, heed your tongue, man__"  The others laughed.

pg. 640  Erlend came over and touched Simon's shoulder:  "Are you asleep, brother-in-law?"  Simon looked up.  The other stood before him with a goblet in his hand.  "Come drink with me, Simon.  You I have to thank most o all that I came off with my life__and, such as it is, 'tis dear to me, lad!  You stood by me like a brother__had you not been my brother-in-law, I trow I had lost my head for sure.__And then could you have wed my wisow__"  Simon sprang up.  A moment the two stood looking at each other__Erlend grew white and sobered, his lips parted in a gasp.  __With his clenched fist Simon struck the goblet out of the other's hand__the mead splashed on the floor.  Then he turned and went out of the room.
 
This entire section after Erlend is released just made me so angry.  Here so many have put their lives on the line to save Erlend, Kristin used all her favors on people she knew cared very much for her, and now that Erlend is free, and the two are back with each other, it is as if they are back to their selfish ways.  Granted, Simon wanted to help as much as possible because he still loves Kristin, and would do anything for her, and now he realizes what he has done.  He has put her right back in the arms of a reckless, selfish fool. 

Erlend and Kristin are not ahead of their times, it has been since the beginning of time man and woman have rebelled against right and wrong, against God's laws, against their families, and their nations.  Eve tempted Adam to rebel against God in the book of Genesis, eating from the tree of life.  Adam and Eve, Erlend and Kristin, all have committed selfish acts, not caring what the consequences would bring. 

I fear there will indeed be consequences for Kristin and Erlend, just as there were for Adam and Eve.  They can enjoy their folly for now.   


 

[BarbStAubrey]

A quote from a book about writing -

"What makes for good writing is the effect it has on the mind and the heart of the reader.

If you want to be a good writer, you must be able to come up with compelling ideas. You must be able to recognize ideas that are intellectually and emotionally engaging, ideas that will arrest and charge up your readers and make them think, "That's good! I never thought of that before!"

It appears that Sigrid Undset has emotionally engaged us with compelling characters - what a wonderful window she gives us to the early fourteenth century in Norway.

[PatH]

I'm going to backtrack to the beginning of this section, because I've kind of made sense of the politics, and I want to get it down before it fades.  Some of this is in footnotes in Nunnally, some in Archer, and some from my encyclopedia.

Background: in the hundred years before the book takes place, Norway had a string of political coups or attempted coups, some of them involving the "birchlegs" (birkebeiner), many of whom were commoners, not nobles.  The birchlegs were responsible for crowning king Sverre (ruled 1184-1202) and secretly raising Sverre's grandson, who then defeated Earl Skule, to become Haakon IV, ruling from 1217-63.

Under Haakon IV and his son, Magnus VI, Norway enjoyed a cultural and economic golden age, the structure of the nobility was changed and weakened, and the power of the throne increased.  Some of the birchlegs were allowed to marry into the nobility, starting new noble families.  Simon's family was among these.

Situation in the book: The king's mother, Lady Ingebjorg, is the daughter of Haakon V, (son of Magnus VI).  When Haakon dies, Ingebjorg's son becomes king at age 3.  This is Magnus VII, the king in the book, king of both Norway and Sweden.  At first Ingebjorg rules as regent, but nobody is happy with her machinations, and she is pushed out.  There are now different regents for the two countries: in Norway it's Erling Vidkunsson, the character in the book.  King Magnus is declared of age when he is 16, but he neglects Norway, leaving it without a workable government.  Erling Vidkunsson leads a modest revolt, designed to get improvement in the government, and this is settled peaceably.  All of the above really happened.

Erlend's plot: At last in this section we learn what Erlend is up to.  He wants to bring Ingebjorg's son by her second husband (hence still a descendent of Haakon and of royal blood) to Norway, and persuade or coerce Magnus into letting his half-brother become king of Norway, leaving Magnus as king of Sweden, where he spends all his time anyway.  Erlend says he wants to do this peaceably, which might even be so; the people are quite dissatisfied with a lousy government and with being taxed to death for Swedish expenses, so they might be talked into demanding an abdication.

We don't find out who many of the co-plotters are, but one who gets caught is Haftor, the brother of Sunniva, the woman who betrayed the plot.  Haftor kills himself in prison.

This plot is fictitious, but it's believable.  The Norwegians actually did kick Magnus out less than 10 years later, in 1343, in favor of his child son Haakon.  (They seem to take turns being Haakons and Magnuses.)

[bellamarie]

Thanks PatH., for breaking this down, in simple terms.  I read about this, and posted links but it was quite lengthy and could lose a person's interest. 

We know Erling Vidkunsson, was aware of what Erlend was up to, if not even a part of the coup, this is why he does not want to go with Simon to plead Erlend case to be released.  In my earlier post:

Erling Vidkunsson says to Erlend, pg. 493  "Think twice before you speak, where you are going.  And think, and think again twenty times, before you do aught__"  "If 'tis so that you do, you who rule the roost here, then I marvel not that all things move but haltingly.  But you need not be afraid," he yawned.  "I__shall do naught, I trow.  But 'tis grown a rare land to live in now, this of ours__"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeborg_of_Norway

"The controversy around Ingeborg's second marriage and the potential succession of her son Haakon to the Norwegian throne are an important part of the plot of the novel Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset."

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Ingeborg_of_Norway

The Scania affair
Ingeborg and Porse had the ambition to make the then Danish Scania a part of her possessions. In 1321, Ingeborg arranged a marriage with her daughter Euphemia and Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg. The marriage was arranged with the terms that Mecklenburg, Saxony, Holstein, Rendsburg and Schleswig would assist Ingeborg in the conquest of Scania. This was approved by the council of Norway but not Sweden. To finance the invasion, Ingeborg took a loan from Stralsund with free trade in Sweden and Norway as security. When Ingeborg's forces under command of Porse invaded Scania in 1322-23, Mecklenburg betrayed her to Denmark and the alliance was broken.

I have to wonder how many years it took Undset to write this book.  She has covered so many important topics from religion, politics, Norse saga, tradition, family, witchcraft, laws, inheritances, property, classes of people, etc., etc.  It is truly mind boggling how she has put together an incredible story set in the 14th century, and covered so much.  I am in awe of her talent. 

Barb, I love those two quotes you chose. 

One of my favorite quotes is:  "Good writing is suppose to evoke sensation in the reader.  Not the fact that it is raining.  But the feeling of being rained upon."  E. L. Doctorow

This book has surely sparked quite a bit of emotion from me! 

[PatH]

This book has surely sparked quite a bit of emotion from me!

I think it has from all of us.  And there's a lot of emotion in this section.  I'll start with Kristin.  Her husband is dragged off to prison, and she has no idea of what's going on, or how serious the charges are.  She gives her children into the care of others, and goes to Nidaros.  This was very hard for her to do, but she felt it was necessary, and she was probably right.  Someone had to fight to free him, and she would need to gather allies to do this.  She would be busy, and might even be in danger.  She couldn’t bring children into danger, and she knew herself well enough to know that she would be paying too much attention to them to do what she had to.  Then there was her marriage.  If Erlend was condemned to death, all that she would have left would be the visits in prison, and she couldn’t waste that.

More later.

[bellamarie]

Well, I suppose it is so that Kristin had to go try to save Erlend, and of course she would need the help and support of many who could go before the king to plead his case.  I just don't know that Erlend was worthy of all that was done for him.  Once again others cleaned up his mess, and he laughs and jokes about it, and does not even begin to realize what all they went through for him.  I just am never going to be an Erlend fan, he is so immature, selfish, and self serving.  He puts himself, his family, friends and townspeople in harm's way, hoping to one day be back in the grace of nobleness.  

Erlend and Kristin live their lives without caring how it affects others around them.  Have you noticed she is no longer lamenting?  The author has somewhat turned away from the faith, and turned to nobility.  This is fitting in these chapters since it is all about Erlend.

Is it even possible for Erlend to ever win back favor with the nobles and King?  He is realizing how he has lived his life has truly made him an outcast from those he so wishes to be a part of.  He will never be happy being a farmer like Lavrans and Simon.  He knows Simon loves Kristin, and he also knows Kristin turns to Simon in her times of need, and these times seem to be when Erlend has done something to cause her so much strife in her life.  

I seriously feel Erlend is beyond really loving anyone but himself.  He takes what he wants, when he wants it, and gives no respect to anyone, not even the King.

[PatH]

I don't think Erlend was worthy of all that either, but Kristin does, and it's her husband, so her call what she does.  He's definitely one of those who eat up other people without even realizing it.

They're very touching in the prison visits after he has been condemned, and they don't know if he can be saved.  Every time the guard turns his back, they hold each other tight, crying, holding tight to each precious moment, because they may only have a few of them left.

I hadn't noticed the no more lamenting; have to think about that.

In this story of the plot, Undset is not only moving the story forward, she is saying things she wants to about the Norwegian character, how at that time they were more personally independent and concerned with fairness to the individual than much of Europe--a point that doesn't particularly resonate with a modern American.

[bellamarie]

Have you noticed that when Kristin and Erlend are in a crisis they are at their best, but when they are at home raising their kids, having a normal life they are the most at odds with each other?  It seems this couple likes the fight it takes to stay together.  Can she ever forgive him of how cruel he treats her.  Remember before he was arrested they were having a huge argument, her dredging up the past hurts and words. 

Yes, I have noticed how the author is moving things along now. 

Not to rush, but are we ready to go into the next book The Cross Part One Kinship's Dues?  We can always continue to discuss these last chapters as well.

[PatH]

Yes, I was just coming in to suggest we move on.  Should we take The Cross in the same size chunks we have been, or should we double them, and do a whole book at a time?

Have you noticed that when Kristin and Erlend are in a crisis they are at their best, but when they are at home raising their kids, having a normal life they are the most at odds with each other?

Yes, it's striking, isn't it?  In her inner dialogue at the end of chapter 4, Kristin thinks about how irritable and unforgiving she is with him  "...she knew she wasn't usually narrow-minded, but with him she was."

And once he's arrested, she immediately shifts into a completely different mode.