Kristin Lavransdatter

[PatH]

heading

[PatH]

"Your husband should be with you too, I trow, rightly.  But it may be Gunnulf has some letter from him . . .

I suspect the issue here is not penance, but transfer of property.  Kristin is giving the Church a valuable crown, and it probably isn't her personal property.

Barb, I'm glad you're safe, even if waterlogged.

[bellamarie]

Yes, you could be right, but the fact he should be there and isn't, and let Kristin make this journey with the baby all by herself says something about him.  I know I seem hard on Erlend, but the author seems to keep dropping these little bread crumbs of how he does not follow through with his responsibilities.  She is keeping us on our toes. 

Barb, Do we need to send an ark for you?  I mean afterall, we have been discussing religion and now the rains won't stop.  Stay safe!  We just had horrible wind and rain earlier tonight, but all is well here. 

[Halcyon]

I am under the impression that it was not Erland's choice for Kristin to go alone to Nidaros.  On page 92 in Nunnally a conversation takes place between Erland and Gunnulf....."Gunnels was it necessary for you to compel her to do this?  Was it necessary?" 

[PatH]

Yes, he's pretty broken up by it, lying on the grass and sobbing.  Gunnulf says to him: "Pray that He holds His hand over her during this journey when you can neither follow her nor protect her."

So, whether or not we think it's pretty harsh, going by herself was part of Kristin's penance.

[BarbStAubrey]

I do not understand how Gunnels has the right or authority to deal out penance for Kristin - but then this whole section of the story just riled me to no end -

Brought back memories of so many down right arguments I had with Father Lynn, the Carmelite priest I had for two classes in Freshmen year high and again a class as a sophomore and one as a senior - always it was over the same issue - how can you punish a person for loving another - it is not right if the religion is based in love - oh and we would get right into it  - he never budged and neither did I  - at one point his argument was because the God given authority of men given because the sperm is active and the egg is passive and therefore, men had to take care of a women which means he had to be assured that the eggs of a women were under his protection - did not have yet in my understanding the word 'control' but instead with a thousand words, that I tend to use when I am outraged that is what he got from me - men simply wanted control of the eggs and therefore, the woman - god help us what I put that man through

But to my speechless gapping mouth recently, about 2 years ago while at Mary House for the monthly mass followed by dinner and discussion the whole issue of women as priests came up and I could not believe when I asked Father Rick, a Holy Cross priest, what the big deal was and he quietly, almost in a whisper says, because of a women's monthly and could I imagine a women having her monthly on the alter - oh oh oh - no hope - how - it is beyond me - I am still speechless - These are educated men - not dumb bunnies with only a 4 year degree as most parish priests - these are order priests with years and years of education before they are ordained - before Vatican II when the constitution for all orders were changed a Carmelite studied for 18 years before being ordained - oh oh oh - although I must say I did get some logic and legal church history from Father Lynn that I did not get from Father Rick.

Hardly know an organized religion, that at its roots is not chauvinistic - but then not all religious are like Gunnulf, filled with his self-righteousness declares guilt and makes up a penance than, goes off to another part of the world with nary a look back to support a so called sinner because by virtue of a harsh penance they are made into good humble obedient folks - until the next time when the cycle of guilt, penance, pay alms, declare your worthlessness, be humble and obedient, continuing a pattern for life - best part about the system, it was self perpetuating and did not require building a brick and mortar holding place for the guilty.

None of this religious expression is near what Meister Eckart (1260 – 1328) wrote and preached about goodness being the blessing of the 'gift' of grace and grace is the connection between our soul and God - no harsh brimstone from this mystic of Christianity.

A piece of me thinks Gunnulf was acting with no less revenge than a brother confused about his feelings for his sister-in-law as in the old religion of the Vikings.

[Halcyon]

Barb   god help us what I put that man through

I think the church and the world need more people who question the status quo.  Good for you.

I also questioned Gunnulf's feelings about Kristin and maybe jealously of Erland since he was the favorite. 

[PatH]

Barb, I'm speechless too, in between bouts of laughter.  Of course you realize that if you walk through the vineyard during your monthly that year's wine will be no good.  And I think there's something about not drinking water out of a stream if you've walked over the bridge....

Barb and Halcyon, I agree, Gunnulf's feelings must be very complicated.  The conversation that started out with "...was it necessary?"  ends up with Gunnulf saying that when Erlend was near death their parents promised him (G) to the priesthood if Erlend would be spared.  And he says that although mostly he was comfortable with his lot, he did have times of regret.  And in spite of this he does love his brother.

Who actually set the penance for Kristin?  She didn't formally confess to Gunnulf.  She confessed to Sira Eiliv, her parish priest, and (p 382)  "...he didn't dare give her the body of Christ.  ...for the sin that she had committed...she would have to seek absolution from the archbishop."

[bellamarie]

Barb, I am cracking up at your post, although I can honestly see you having this heated discussion with your priests.  I really don't have any issues with women not being priests.  They have the holy orders of being nuns, and for me that is okay.  My very good friend Sr. Myra gave herself the title Associate Pastor, she was also the principal of our Catholic school and the director of the CCD program.  Barb, you do remind me of her.  She and I decided our school needed a computer lab and set out to begin one.  Neither she nor I knew the first thing about computers back then, but hey, that was not going to stop us two headstrong women.  Within 5 years we had the best technology program in all the elementary Catholic schools in the city, and I was teaching high school teachers at our University, basic computer skills, and other area schools on how to begin a computer lab in their schools.  We women can have a monthly, and STILL manage to do great things in the church and school.

Women were considered unclean during the menstrual cycle, you could not have anything unclean on the altar.
What the Bible says about Menstruation

Leviticus 15:19-30
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.

I think Gunnulf set it up for Kristin to go to Nidaros, for penance.  He then contacted  Sira Eiliv, if you remember he stated Erlend may have sent a letter, I'm guessing giving permission for Kristin to give the golden crown.  But still, Erlend had NOT done penance for his sleeping with Kristin before they were wedded.

I just finished reading the first three chapters in Part II, and I have to tell you  I am getting just a bit tired of Kristin's constant chastisement on herself.   It's beginning to grind at me, no one can possibly be as sinless, or shameful of their sins, as she expects herself to be, unless she of course were a saint.  These chapters annoyed me greatly.  Erlend wants his young carefree Kristin back, is tired of her always being with the children, is cruel to the baby because he is sick and crying, and just wants to leave and get away, and is sneaking behind Kristin's back and selling off her parcels of land.  The author throws in Orm dies, Kristin has a miscarriage, and the next thing you know she is having twins.  Ughhh...   

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Yea, Erlend did do his penance - do not want to reread to find the words but, he had to do good works for I think it was a month, travel to visit the relic of St. Olaf and gave money to the church - he says something to his brother about his doing their penance and asks why now does Kristin have penance when the penance was done by him - all this because they were not legally married and now, after generations the old way of marriage, that exchange of words between them is not recognized - The only reason for the new traditions around marriage has to do with the transfer of wealth and property from bride to husband  -

Seems to me the church is being shown to be as barbaric as the old religion or rather, with more compassion, people are people and regardless the God they recognize they can only bring to that quest for a connection to their God, their expression of living a 'good' life, they can only bring what they know - this time in history was filled with the unknown. Because biology and the earth sciences were not known the only control over their life and its fears were sayings, amulets, ritual behavior and submitting to a lot of physical brutality with no clue to the emotional damage they did to themselves and each other.

It became apparent in this next section that Erlend cannot read and so the only way the voices of someone like Meister Eckart would be known is if you lived near him and heard his sermons - there were not many like Meister Eckart or we would not be revering his spirituality in his writing to this day.

Also, Meister Eckart lived where High German was developed. He lived in the center of a dynamic intellectual culture, that included the oldest, traceable German literary history. Thuringia is one of the founding-places of the tradition of poetic drama, the religious re-enactment. In 1227, Ludwig IV had commissioned a passion play in Eisenach. Location, it is not near a wide river that Vikings could have found. Thuringia eastern border is where the Slovakian nations are located and it is north of the mountains of Bavaria.  It is a gentle lush green land far different than the harsh, cold, isolated communities of Norway where the growing season was a short 2 maybe 3 months.

It is easy to understand how living in a lush green land it is easier to have a gentle outlook on life and that to me is the dichotomy of Gunnulf - he is helpful and kind to Kristin before and while she is having her child, acting as you would expect someone who lived in the cultured, lush green lands of Paris and Italy. But then, like a two sided coin he deems this harsh penance - it is one thing to be absolved with prayer, fasting, alms and entreating the blessings of the Bishop but another, the cruel punishment he inflicted - I am sorry but all that drama in the church on the floor, hysterically crying, asking for forgiveness, remarking about another woman in her presence , saying her penance and what not - it was shear exhaustion thats all - along with the pent up fear and loneliness of the second half of her journey. For what - so she can feel guilty for expressing her love for a man before some traditional ceremony that transfered her care and wealth to him. I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone. So her parents did it the right way and where did that get them.  

Grrr I need to go on to the next section or I will never sleep tonight as I pace and churn over the ridiculous illogic thinking that stays with us down the centuries and is rearing its mighty head again. When you cannot control forces around you then - controool the women.

[bellamarie]

Barb,

I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone.

I have to say, if we all took this attitude, there would be no need for moral living, or religious teachings.  In Genesis we are taught of self control.  God has promised us a good life, if only we can follow His laws.  Eve tempted Adam, just as Erlend tempted Kristin.  Throughout the beginning of time, we have had "lust" causing people to have sex outside of marriage.  Kristin and Erlend were not "in love" when they first had sex.  He took advantage of her youth and innocence.  He lacked self control with Eline, causing him to be in the state of sin.  There are so many men like Erlend, who prey upon the young and innocence, for the pure pleasure of satisfying his own sexual needs.  Imagine how many times a young girl is influenced, and feels over the moon, in love with a boyfriend before she actually does find her husband.  If self control were not a moral issue, she could be having sex with every one of these so called, I can't live without you boyfriends.  I had at least 8 boyfriends if not more, from my Junior High years to my actual marriage.  Practicing self control, because I was a believer in my faith, to save myself for my husband, and yes, fear of pregnancy, and fear of my parents, kept me safe, even though I would have thought at least two of these guys would have been my Prince Charming, at the time.  

God's intent for husband and wife to enjoy the act of sex was to share the union of marriage, vowing to remain faithful to one another.  I wholeheartedly believe in the sacrament of marriage.  Sex inside a marriage was also meant to precreate.  Sex outside of marriage causes not only emotional and psychological problems, but it also creates issues that destroy the makeup of social life.

While practicality does not determine right from wrong, if the Bible's message on sex before marriage were obeyed, there would be far fewer sexually transmitted diseases, far fewer abortions, far fewer unwed mothers and unwanted pregnancies, and far fewer children growing up without both parents in their lives. Abstinence is God’s only policy when it comes to sex before marriage. Abstinence saves lives, protects babies, gives sexual relations the proper value, and, most importantly, honors God.

God got this right!  I see so many young girls today, lost, strapped with a baby they are not ready for, crushed self esteem and self worth because they have had sex so many times with so many different guys they have lost who they are.  Their moral compass is so off course they don't know where to turn.  I am involved with a program called Heartbeat of Toledo, that is for young girls who can come and get pregnancy tests, we counsel and give them information on sexually transmitted diseases, abortion and how it medically and emotionally affect you years later, and we provide services to them throughout their pregnancy and after the baby is born.  If you could only see how these girls are racked with fear, guilt, lack self worth and little education, it would break your heart, and believe me the baby Daddy is no where to be found.  My best guess is he is off sleeping with the next girl, ruining her life.  The faith teaches abstinence, and statistics show more young people are actually practicing it today, than in prior years.  Girls need to realize, so called "love" can and will destroy your young life, by giving into sex before marriage.

Barb you ask, " how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone."

Not only did this hurt Kristin, but it has hurt her family, and others who love her, and yes Erlend's family and friends as well.  How do you suppose Erlend's children born from adultery felt knowing their father slept with yet another woman, being unfaithful to their mother, refusing to marry her,  and got Kristin pregnant before marriage?

Every action every individual makes has some type of affect on others, in some way or the other, good or bad.  The whole break down of the family today, can be related to actions of lack of self control, be it loose sex, drugs, crime, domestic violence, etc.   If Erlend truly loved Kristin, he would not have  treated her as such, and caused her the emotional, spiritual, and physical pain she suffered from not resisting his temptations.  Yes, she was as much at fault as he was, but......he was the more mature, older, experienced person here.  Erlend in these chapters is showing a man of restlessness, lacking patience with his children and Kristin's constant illnesses, and her not being able to give him more attention.  Hmmmm......sounds pretty much like today's world.  Men want what they want, when they want it, and when it becomes an inconvenience they grow tired, bored and restless.  

Sorry for my rant, I am just way too sensitive to sex outside of marriage, seeing what ramifications it actually does cause.  I'm sorry your priests with ALL their teachings, could not give you this basic understanding of why it is the best way to live as a Christian, but then as a woman, mother, grandmother, sister, niece, aunt, Godmother, CCD teacher and sponsor for many Confirmation girls, living life and knowing how sex outside of marriage harms these females, I have the experience and knowledge, no priest would have.  It goes against your moral, Christian values, it destroys the girls, and it destroys family and faith. 

[Halcyon]

I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone.

Not only did this hurt Kristin, but it has hurt her family, and others who love her, and yes Erlend's family and friends as well.

Bellamarie, I don't understand your reasoning.  Are you saying everyone/Kristin should follow the path their parents have laid out for them just so the parents and family will be happy?  What about Kristin's happiness?  Or any other child?  You claim Erland and Kristin were not in love when they first made love.  Maybe not but they did have an attraction to each other.  Kristin had no attraction to Simon, didn't want him to touch her.  And what about her parents?  Also, they lived in a different time and it's unfair to apply the standards of today's church to them.

I think children should be taught to question, to be independent and to find their own happiness.  I don't think that is selfish because if a person is unhappy everyone around that person will be affected.  As far as sex before marriage there is birth control and teen-agers should be taught the consequences of having sex and not using protection.   

[bellamarie]

Well, to answer your question Halcyon, first off...it is NOT my reasoning, I was speaking of what the Bible teaches, and I agree with.  I did not say,  everyone/Kristin should follow the path their parents have laid out for them just so the parents and family will be happy.  Barb, asked how their actions hurt anyone, and I responded in how it did indeed hurt others.

I said,  we should follow God's plans laid out for us as Christians.  It is obvious we have birth control, and how is that working out?  I think today's society much like Erlend and Kristin, lack self control, that results in consequences.  Abstinence is God's way, and the most safest of all for everyone to prevent their risks of sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancies, abortions and ruining their young lives.  Sex outside of marriage has indeed been proven to be the breakdown of family, and moral values.  As a matter of fact the program I am involved with has shown a pattern that young girls are actually using abortion as a means of birth control.  They have sex, get pregnant, and then abort multiple times, even knowing they could get free birth control from various clinics, without parental consent, within walking distance of their home. This is proving to destroy not only an unborn human life, but it indeed is destroying their own life.  Girls have come in, admitting to how much it affected them years later.  

Look at Kristin and Erlend.  Has she been happy through all of this?  Is Erlend happy?  My assessment is they were proving they were going to be together no matter what, and who it hurt, but ultimately it cost Eline her life, and it is not seeming to be the marriage made in Heaven for either of them.  

I respectfully disagree with those who feel "who will it hurt", I feel we should not ignore God's teachings and plans, for our own selfish moments of lust or happiness.  I happen to trust in God's plan for me, and I trust He knows what path to guide me down with the teachings of my faith, to have lifetime happiness, rather than short lived moments of sneaking away having sex, in brothels, barns or attics.  So far I have not seen where these have resulted in a marriage of happiness, nor has it given Kristin the love and peace she keeps praying for.  If anything, her actions even after receiving absolution, seems to keep haunting her.  Erlend continues to hurt her feelings with his lack of love, and respect for her.  

I don't expect others to agree with me, in today's society the Christian faith is getting persecuted, demeaned and disintegrating for the mere fact of people wanting to live their lives their own ways, and I have heard so many say, "It's my life and I am not hurting anyone."  Well, wrong!  Everyone's actions does indeed affect others around them.  All the unwanted babies, and aborted babies if they could talk, would say how it hurt them.  God got it right as far as I am concerned.  

When will Kristin ever find the happiness she so longs for?  Maybe never.......

Halcyon,  

I think children should be taught to question, to be independent and to find their own happiness.  I don't think that is selfish because if a person is unhappy everyone around that person will be affected.

The key word here is, "children"  we as the adults/parents, with more knowledge, experience and teaching are to help guide them to a life of happiness.  For my family, that meant God's teachings, as a faith family.  I wish I had a dime for every time one of my three children, knew what was best for them from the time they could talk, til the day they walked down the aisle to be wed.  I would be a rich woman.  I agree in allowing them to question, be independent and find their happiness, but not at the expense of not parenting, sitting back and watching them go against their moral values, and Christian teaching/faith.  I can happily say, all three are happily married, and living their faith filled lives.  Life will never be perfect, we will always feel we know what is best, even when it causes others we love much unhappiness, while we are venturing out and away from the values and faith you were given to know.  Whether my kids as grown ups are of the same Catholic faith our family holds, or another, I can say they made it through there roughest times by turning back to God, and their faith.   And I do have to admit, I may have said to them once or twice, "You can get happy in the same face you got sad in."  Sometimes, loving your child and guiding them means they will be unhappy, and their unhappiness is indeed yours as well, but I could never let them sway too far away from our faith and moral values, just to let them experience a few moments of happiness, that ultimately resulted in pain.  

Kristin continues to hunger for peace and happiness, and I believe she will find her way, because her heart is filled with faith, and her love of God.

[PatH]

So far in this book nobody has what I would call a good marriage.  The best is Lavrans and Ragnfrid, which has respect and companionship, though Ragnfrid didn't love Lavrans when they married, and when she came to love him, he couldn't give her the passion she needed.

Even Gunnulf says that if Kristin and Erlend hadn't broken laws and hurt others, their sleeping together wouldn't have been much of a sin.  I wonder if a more sensible person than Erlend could have found a good way around their barriers.

[PatH]

Talking about her book, Undset said that Kristin's greatest sin was not having sex before marriage, but the sin of pride, which led to defiance of the rules she had learned as a child.  Now she's obsessing over every tiny fault in herself, and Sira Eiliv tells her that this is the temptation of pride--she should just live her ordinary, good life and not dwell on things so much.  Do you think that's why she's so obsessed with her sins?

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  It does not seem to matter to Kristin, what Gunnulf told her about their sleeping together not being so much a sin.  Kristin is living with what she personally feels inside.  She has her own sense of right and wrong.  She has been absolved, and still she allows it to haunt her.  I can understand Kristin's feelings.  If you personally feel you have done something to break your relationship with God, no matter if the Pope absolves you, until YOU have made it right with yourself and God, it will not matter what others say.  She has to learn to forgive herself.  I'm not sure how she can do this.  For me I had a particular battle, and confessing to my parish priests and our Bishop did not alter the fact I felt I had broken my relationship with God.  Others saw it such a minor offense, but for me it was major, because it kept me from having a full relationship with God.  I am happy to say my day of reuniting with God has come, and I could not be more overwhelmed with my love for Him.  I am praying Kristin's day of atonement will come for her.

PatH.,  It could indeed be the sin of pride.  Personally, I feel she is striving to get back to the relationship with God, she had before the sins of sex, and having a hand in Eline's death.  Now, the daughter Margaret is living with them, and she can not find it in her heart to feel close to this little girl because she is a reminder of Eline, and what part she played in this girl not having a mother.  Ughhh...that is a lot to deal with.  A constant reminder, day after day.  It's as if Satan himself has taken up residence in her home and heart.

Pat we were posting at the same time.  

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear I am sorry you find my views on man made laws upsetting - we really have no idea what God says or wants on marriage - no one has ever had a conversation with him or her and reported back - there is a history of marriage practices that we bump into in this story - The history of marriage is male led and has little to do with love - we still have vestures of arranged marriages and among western royalty we saw the debacle because of an arranged marriage experienced by Lady Diana Spencer and Prince Charles.

Please, to better understand how theology and the laws of the church are agreed upon and see it is nothing but politics read What Happened at Vatican II by John W. O'Malley - there are other authors however, this book is written by a Jesuit Priest who has written other books and is not considered a rogue author by the conclave of Cardinals or the Pope. His copy of Four Cultures of the West is also good but to see how much of what is going on in the church is based on politics among men What Happened at Vatican II is a gold mine - other conclaves we can read about but since they took place so long ago in history it is a bit harder to make them feel real much less recognize the people involved.

You are very well versed in the Bible and by using it as your guide it is giving you much comfort and direction for your life - as you read you learn that unifying the Christian church was an important theme for Vatican II and other Christians put great store in the Bible - where as the Roman Catholic tradition because of the lack of ability by average readers to read in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and without advanced education or for many any eduction the belief was a priest could interpret better the written word. I do remember how it was in the USA before WWII when only 5% of the people had a collage education and so it this tradition made sense to me.

As you know the church is not just the Bible - there are many church doctors and mystics who have contributed to the way we connect our soul with God and as you are aware, there are many local saints, who were revered because they had an ability to live their life in the way the people of the area understood, so the saint became a model of behavior that was easier to observe and understand by the local population -

All that is part of the fabric of the church. And then the early church, till folks like Henry the VIII and later Calvin and Luther equalized and increased the power of kings, the church was the governing body for most of Europe. The church is still based in the laws of certain kings. Vatican II attempted to 'right' some of the Medieval European prejudices and affects of power monger leadership from the past but, to erase the affects from Constantine would be to erase the governing body of the church.

All to say I do not want to turn this discussion into finding the 'right' way to agree on the various accepted interpretations wrapped in the Roman Catholic Church. My religious training was different than yours and no more 'right' than yours - it does lead me to question and to explore, to compare the words of church Doctors, Mystics, Saints and church Doctrine. I know that church doctrine is not Bible based - not to depreciate its value at all - it is a source of direction that the pastoral side of the church relies upon.

I often see a dichotomy between the insights of especially Mystics as compared to church tradition and church law - When it comes to love between man and his God as well as, love between each other we can see a progression that makes earlier behavior appear cruel - While there were some enacting these cruelties at the same time there were others preaching a more enlightened attitude of how to behave with compassion. To see to this day, in or out of the church, that law is developed as if all situations and people are the same leaving little room for understanding individual experiences much less growth in our ability to understand and more, people are content with this system I question.

When, during the time of our story there are other views, I look for the advantage to the story and the characters to which their views are acted upon or to which the character is reacting  - as to my questioning Father Lynn and Father Rick I am/was not asking them to consider blasphemy or some Wicca viewpoint on life but rather the dichotomy within our belief system.  My sister does philosophy that is based on deep questioning that came as a result of both of our early education supported questioning everything so that questioning and finding answers that are usually only more questions is part of our DNA to use today's idiom.

We were trained early that there are many traditions of worship and theologies active and approved within the church however, there is an official single theology that is presented to the world to represent the church and as long as anyone publicly publishes that is the boundary used to be approved by the department of the Curia in charge of education and according to subject matter the department dealing with the Propagation of the Faith.

For those among us who are not Catholic and are reading all this - here is a nice link to the structure of the Curia and the duties of each department.
http://www.catholic-pages.com/vatican/curia.asp
 
My questioning in this story of Kristin and Erlend is how these harsh punishments for breaking tradition, benefits the one giving the punishment since we see in the story others with similar authority acting differently and how does this behavior happen when at the same time in history we have others in the church saying things like....

You may call God love, you may call God goodness. But the best name for God is compassion. - Meister Eckhart

However, I am wondering if the reason for the huge difference in how these characters support or condemn is based on this quote also from Meister Eckhart.

The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.

And then within the Bible there is this one that could explain this story of Kristin, Erlend and his brother -

Proverbs 17:17 “A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.”

[BarbStAubrey]

OK just read the concept that it is about pride that the author was developing and yet, we know that in the church especially among women and seen as the major concern of nuns while they were still living a convent life that pride was simply not being obedient - if folks like Hildagard Von Bingen or even St. Teresa of Avila were obedient they would not be icons to their expressing their love of God.

There was a strong practice of obedience in monasteries that continued much after the Middle Ages when it was rampant - from Stealing Obedience: Narratives of Agency and Identity in Later Anglo-Saxon England

Katherine O'Brien O'Keeffe looks at Benedictine monasticism through the writings of Ælfric, Anselm, Osbern of Canterbury, and Goscelin of Saint-Bertin, as well as liturgy, canon and civil law, chronicle, dialogue, and hagiography, to analyse the practice of obedience in the monastic context. Stealing Obedience brings a highly original approach to the study of Anglo-Saxon narratives of obedience in the adoption of religious identity.

and then a quick look at what Catherine of Sienna wrote - "Look at the first man and you will see the cause which destroyed the obedience imposed on him by Me, the Eternal Father. It was pride, which was produced by self-love, and desire to please his companion. This was the cause that deprived him of the perfection of obedience, giving him instead disobedience, depriving him of the life of grace, and slaying his innocence, wherefore he fell into impurity and great misery, and not only he, but the whole human race, as I said to you."

The question comes if we are each individuals with unique talents and unique ability to express those talents than not developing our agency is not keeping to the story of the woman who searched for her coin called a talent and told to increase the one to twelve - obediance is about bounderies and developing your own agency was and to many is still considered prideful.

And so I can see Undset developing this concept however, I am not sure about our suggesting the characters are right or wrong for their entanglement with what was called Pride - sure was not called prideful when the Vikings pushed their skill to find new lands and these are the forefathers to these characters.

[bellamarie]

Barb,  I found nothing about your views or posts upsetting, I just respectfully tried to answer your lifelong question, you asked your priests who seemed not to be able to answer for you, which was:  

I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone.

My post was showing how other people's actions always affect others, good or bad.  Not sure what you saw differently.

Scripture does indeed tell us what God feels, because He guided the writers, through the Holy Spirit, and so having a conversation with God, would be in reading His word.

I do not see scripture as "man made laws."  A Catholic is aware of the church's traditions, beliefs, and laws as well, so in knowing this and choosing to be a Catholic, you are agreeing to live within the faith and laws of the church.  Man made or not, they are guided by the Holy Spirit.  Yes, there is always the political side, but in essence, Catholics choose this because it is our faith based.  If a person does not agree with the church's laws, then they have the choice, and free will to leave, and chose another faith that suits their views, or none at all.  Kristin and Erlend have been raised by this faith, so it is by this faith they will be judged in their behaviors, and must do penance to heal their relationship with the church and God.  It is obvious for Kristin, it is what she wants, she just has no idea how to forgive herself.

We both are well versed in the Catholic faith, and I respect your views, and did not intend to come over upset about anything.  Maybe my passion for my own views, and faith came over strongly.  I truly was trying to show how sex outside of marriage does indeed hurt others, as per your question.

These three chapters have really riled me up.  I am getting frustrated with Kristin's constant attitude, and Erlend's lack of caring.  I won't begin to seem to be knowledged in the church's laws back in the 14th century, and as interesting as they may be to some, I am trying to look at these two characters as your normal everyday Norse saga, people, which can be a challenge of it's own.  The author has truly brought a new meaning to, the sin of pride, if indeed this is what she sees Kristin's constant anguish is all about. I say, like the priest told her......get over yourself, and get on with living your life.  She and Erlend just could not live without each other, no matter who it hurt, yet it seems they can't live with each other happily, now that they have each other.  

Mea culpa, mea culpa, grande mea culpa.....enough already!

[BarbStAubrey]

OK I am not going to talk about the concept of the Bible and how you think it was written - does not match evidence that is taught in Catholic colleges today - but lets just keep to this story.

There is no evidence that either Kristin or Erlend read the Bible - Erlend could not read and there is no evidence that Kristin could read even Latin for that translation much less Greek much less Hebrew, Aramaic. The story is taking place in 1314 or there abouts - there was no translation other than Latin - most of the monks and priests in the story were not able to read the Bible because they too did not have the language ability needed. Educated Gunnulf may have been able to read the Bible.

As to the manner that marriage took place - Kristin and Erlend spoke the words to each other that were in keeping with the known old religion - this is a case of one group attempting to follow another tradition and the new group does not respect the old as the new religion labeled the old, pagan - that was pompous of the new Catholic Religion that was trying to persuade folks into practicing the new way. Kristin's parents, trying to look good among the social group they lived among but somehow they had to justify that they were good little boy and girl and married as their parents deemed regardless their personal happiness or individuality.

As we read we see Kristin caught in a cycle of self destruction that we could have compassion for her - the church through its harsh penance along with the church holding itself up as the way to behave in order to avoid the pain of life leaves Kristin in the bottom of a hole - she has no other religion to turn to since the old ways have been made emphatically clear to her they were not going to be accepted by anyone in her life with only her husband as a possible alley and the two of them as rebels would not allow their future children to have any life in the community.

She had been brought to her knees by the penance that now she must justify, as we all do when anything beyond the pale happens in our life - we blame ourselves.  Where we may look for a way out of the hole she has been told that in so doing she is being prideful because as a victim of the hole she is doing what is considered acceptable to all but not to her soul and probably not to her God who did not mean for any of us to subject ourselves to being nothing more than a tool for the opinion of others. She is self destroying what is her own spirit because she loved and married from her own spirit and was punished for it.

No where in the Bible, except for the marriage at Canna that talks about the wedding reception, does it lay out the process used to first exchange goods and wealth from the women to the man at a betrothal ceremony - nor that a women is supposed to as a virgin take a ceremonial bath or wear a crown - the concept of exchanging vows only happened in front of a father till about the end of the fourteenth century - there is no church representative involved much less any verse from the bible offering a blessing at a marriage.

Today we cannot imagine marrying without love - sex has a different connotation today so that it being an expression of love is still a man made and modern (since the nineteenth century) expression that is not the church's definition of married love -  Outside the Bible this is what the church says about marriage after it became a sacrament - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

Kristin is a victim of a society that is justifying itself on their understanding of a new church that they hear and see conflicting examples of how to adhere to this new religion because the behavior of the very priestly leadership is not pure in heart or spirit - she has no way to assuage her fears about sickness, storms, death, child birth, possible physical deformities, bad crops, lack of rain, etc. etc. except through a spiritual belief and she is not going back to the old ways - the new religion exploited her for wanting her own self-identity also, because she wanted to experience a passion filled relationship that she did not even have the words to express -  

I am thinking compassion is in order and to dig in so that we can feel what someone with no escape must feel - More, this is a time in history that cannot be compared to what we know and have at our finger tips now - we have the written word that we can read - we know how the physical body works and that the sky is not a bowl that leaks water - we do not use ritual in our life to chase away our fears that are nothing like the fears of Kristin and Erlend. Experiencing this story would be like being plunked down in the middle of the wilds of China or Mongolia and creating a life where our ability to read would be useless and our knowledge of the Bible would also be useless.

Nothing we have read except, to use the word Christian, cathedrals, abbot, monastery, priest is anything like the experience we know today - we certainly do not have penance that requires we wear a rough rope around our waist and walk barefoot 20 miles with an infant on our back, little food, no bedding and no pampers, to obtain the forgiveness of any sin regardless how horrendous. How many of us could even hike 20 miles with the proper shoes and equipment we take for granted.

We know soldiers that experience atrocities never get over them - they may hide them but they do not get over them - however, they, as holocaust survivors or even victims of sexual abuse have others to talk openly to and put their experience in some kind of perspective or at least they have someone who will listen to them - Kristin not only does not have that but is not even aware the abuse she experienced since it par for the course during this time in history.

Trying to live with that pounding knowledge that she not only did wrong but she is wrong is the same shame felt by victims of abuse who believe they accepted the abuse that they should have been able to stop - Kristin is acting exactly the same way - she has been filled with shame and it takes years if ever to bring yourself out of the shame with help much less isolated from help as she is as she is told it is her problem for trying to feel anything but complacent with her shame since that means she is prideful.

The definition by many for the Middle Ages is the Dark Age and this story helps us see just how dark to the human spirit this time was for the average person.  

[bellamarie]

I won't debate any further scripture, Bible, laws, abuse, victimization, etc.  You have your right to your feelings and I have mine.  I am not sure I can trust who is teaching in the colleges today, to even consider the evidence they are proposing to students. 

I don't see where anyone, or anything other than Kristin can help herself.  She is a victim of her own doing. 

Kristin chose the sin.  Not only speaking of sex before marriage, but having a hand in Eline's death, which I find to be much more grave than anything else she has done.

If absolution is not enough for her, than I don't know what else will be.  I don't blame the church, laws, parents, priests, the dark ages, etc., etc.  She made her choices.  She couldn't live without Erlend, she caved into her desires, allowed herself to be lured to brothels, barns and attics to be with this man she knew had sexual relations with a married woman, and had children by Eline, it is human nature.  
I don't know how this author is going to bring peace or joy to Kristin, if she refuses to accept absolution, and forgive herself, other than through death.  The church has shown compassion, her parents have forgiven her, priests have counseled her, the townsfolk have accepted her, even Erlend's own son Orm grew to love her, and his daughter Margaret lives with her, yet....Erlend continues to berate her, and that may very well be the crux to the reason she can not forgive herself.  She knows she sacrificed much for him, and sees he has not proven to be worthy of her sacrifices.  

She may be struggling with knowing she put her love of Erlend, before her love of God.  

[bellamarie]

PatH., We have chapters 4 - 8 until Part III ERLEND NIKULAUSSON, the final part of The Mistress of Husaby.  Are we ready to move on and read these chapters?  How does everyone feel?  Have you already read these chapters and waiting for us?

[Halcyon]

Good Morning Everyone,

I'm already reading Part III.  Will we be reading the third book in June?

[PatH]

Yes, we need to move on to 4-8.  We've surely said everything possible about Kristin's religious feelings here, and we can polish off whatever else we want to say today.

Halcyon, I thought we would continue on straight through the trilogy, as long as anybody wants to.  It looks like we're down to 5 people, me, Barb, Bellamarie, Halcyon, StellaMaris.  We can set our own timetable.  Thoughts about speed, etc, would be welcomed.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  Sounds great!  I could not begin to stop, and not know how this trilogy ends.  I'm up for any pace others are comfortable with.

Just a mention....in these last three chapters we learned, Orm, Lady Aashild, and Bjorn have all died, and Kristin had a miscarriage and then now just gave birth to twins.  All in the matter of what four years?  Oh my, at this rate they are going to fill that house before you know it.  Erlend is complaining about her not having time for him with all the time she spends with the kids, who are sick all the time not to mention so is she.  Ughh...  

[PatH]

Yes, an event-filled time.  I wonder what the sickness was that hit them all so hard and killed Orm?  It sounds like measles.  By the way, you realize that most of the time when someone says Kristin is ill, that's a euphemism for pregnant.

[BarbStAubrey]

What really got to me was how her second child was taken from her and the wet nurse tried to become the child's mom that Kristin had to observe and then try to manipulate to get back her own child - I could not imagine - helping is one thing but trying to take on the role of a mother to someone's child and that someone lives in the same house - oh oh oh.

Interesting to read the relationship between Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Russia - have to look again at history but I think it is after this time that Denmark does take over Norway for several hundred years but the waring advancement of Russia onto Sweden and now Norway is something I want to know more about.

Looks like Erlend was given a serious charge and new position to protect the coastline of Norway.

[PatH]

A lot happens in the first three chapters.  We see the feelings of Kristin and Erlend surging back and forth, unfortunately, often not in sync.

At the end of the first year of marriage, Kristin moves back in from the women’s house.  Erlend is pretty busy, but in his element getting ready for the northern campaign.  Nunnally, p 440: “Then Erlend took charge of the men called up for duty on the ships south of the fjord.  He dashed around, riding or sailing, and he was busy with people who came to see him and letters that had to be sent.  He was so young , and handsome, and so happy—the listless, dejected look that she had so often seen come over him in the past seemed to have been swept away.  He sparkled with alertness, like the morning.  He had little time left over for her now; but she grew dizzy and wild whenever he came near her with his smiling face and those adventure-loving eyes.

He goes off on business for the campaign, and “She was certain that in this Russian campaign Erlend would prove fit for something other than ruining his name and his property.”

He returns, finds she’s pregnant again, and says “I thought that when I finally had you, it would be like celebrating Christmas every day.  But now it seems there will be mostly long periods of fasting.”  Big mistake.  She feels that he has stomped out the fire inside her.

[Halcyon]

Errand seems to have no filter between his brain and his mouth.  Thinking aloud is not always good in a relationship.  I understand what he means though...he wants Kristin to be his fellow adventurer, lover and friend before they settle into the routine of rearing children.  Maybe not mature thinking but understandable to me. 

[PatH]

Yes, it's understandable, and Kristin contributes by being touchy and holding grudges.  I can't see the relationship ever running smoothly for long.

Continuing: everyone gets sick from measles or whatever it is.  Orm dies, and Kristin falls ill, has a miscarriage, and almost dies.  Kristin has lost the fire she felt, but in its place things are calm and good between them.  She doesn't want to spoil the peace by talking to him about how he's wasting her property.

A man she meets at banquets tries to seduce her, and when she primly refuses, says "I don't understand...how Erlend ever managed to have his way with you."  She says nothing, but the look in her eyes amazes him: "I thought that was only something they wrote about--in ballads."

Her life is a kind of seesaw between fiery passion and annoyance.

[BarbStAubrey]

Her life is a kind of seesaw between fiery passion and annoyance. Reminds me of that phase in marriage when the fantasy of who someone is no longer holds and the glue between a couple is no longer passion - after you know both the high points that gave the relationship excitement and the low points that you observe living with someone before you have them worked out as simply what makes the whole of the other.

I think where it is awkward to hear Erlend's thoughts - they are typical of many guys, especially someone like Erlend whose childhood did not include a warm and happy household as his model - also, he is not an educated man - I am amazed the story teller allows us to  get into his head at all rather than allowing us to deduce from his actions because this is Kristin's story with the author I would think freely giving us insight into her thoughts and feelings.

Interesting, I fell for it, I too wanted a happy here-after story or like Erlend said, Christmas that followed such a passionate beginning that was against all convention. A story that sorta kept the two of them against the conventional world. It looks like this is settling down into an intimate view of life without the fairy tale ending of 'and they lived happily ever-after'.

Makes me wonder if we have always lived with one foot in the past and the other in the present, that every century is a time of change from one set of beliefs, that are easy and comfortable, to another that is a struggle to adapt - maybe that is an ongoing struggle in life. I am seeing us today living with so many changes that what we knew as children and now, no longer holds water - recently saw how students learn addition and it is so beyond my understanding - and how parenting has really changed since my own days of parenting.

Major social change is what I am seeing as one of the theme's of this story - how they adapted to change as these characters have one foot in the old religion that still makes perfect sense, like putting numbers in a row, one under the other and adding one column at a time carrying the left hand number to the next column and now, in our story the characters are attempting to adapt to a new religion that even some of the representatives of that new religion are living in their own adaptation of what satisfies their comfort.

Erlend was given a large nation-saving task that puts him closer to the old ways and Kristin made fearful of her individual nature is adapting more of the ways ascribed by the new religion with her only comfort to also harken back to her childhood and judge the world around her, including Erlend, by those experiences.

Which only prompts me to see how we are not used to husbanding water or looking at ground water as our investment and how like wealth you never touch your investment only the income from that investment - trying to adapt that thinking to our practice of digging wells whenever or where-ever they were needed or using ground water as the engine of industry was how we prospered. Now learning and practicing collecting water on a large scale and paying for these home collections that can cost as much or more than digging a well is not happening quickly so that I can see how difficult it is for those like Erlend whose importance and value was measured in ways that does not husband the land or the servants.

[bellamarie]

“I thought that when I finally had you, it would be like celebrating Christmas every day.  But now it seems there will be mostly long periods of fasting.”

Hmmmm....seems like the fact she was pregnant before the wedding gave up all his chances of Christmas every day, and her being his adventurer and lover.  Erlend does not live in reality.  He lives in a life of fantasy.  He acts like it's her fault she is pregnant again, and again, and again, as if he has nothing to do with it.  

Well, I finished chapters 4-8 and it seems the next generation is taking over.  Changes have taken place, Kristin returns home to see changes not only in her home, but in her father's health.  Ramborg is marrying Simon of all people, and Lavrans is thrilled he will be the one to be her husband, rather than Erlend be her guardian if she is not married when he dies.  That speaks volumes of the fact Lavrans is never going to give Erlend his respect and love.  

I have never felt there is to be a happily ever after for Kristin and Erlend, not because of them going against the will of her family, but because Erlend has proven time and again to be self serving, untrustworthy, impulsive, and reckless.  He has a noble like position now, and yet he seems to be ready to throw in against Ingebjorg.  

Erling Vidkunsson says, pg. 493  "Think twice before you speak, where you are going.  And think, and think again twenty times, before you do aught__"  "If 'tis so that you do, you who rule the roost here, then I marvel not that all things move but haltingly.  But you need not be afraid," he yawned.  "I__shall do naught, I trow.  But 'tis grown a rare land to live in now, this of ours__"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeborg_of_Norway

"The controversy around Ingeborg's second marriage and the potential succession of her son Haakon to the Norwegian throne are an important part of the plot of the novel Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset."


http://www.thefullwiki.org/Ingeborg_of_Norway
The Scania affair
Ingeborg and Porse had the ambition to make the then Danish Scania a part of her possessions. In 1321, Ingeborg arranged a marriage with her daughter Euphemia and Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg. The marriage was arranged with the terms that Mecklenburg, Saxony, Holstein, Rendsburg and Schleswig would assist Ingeborg in the conquest of Scania. This was approved by the council of Norway but not Sweden. To finance the invasion, Ingeborg took a loan from Stralsund with free trade in Sweden and Norway as security. When Ingeborg's forces under command of Porse invaded Scania in 1322-23, Mecklenburg betrayed her to Denmark and the alliance was broken.

Erlend is messing as Erling Vidkunsson refers to them as, "faithless folk" and I fear he is going to live to regret it.  

 

[bellamarie]

These chapters had some poignant, tender, loving, and emotional moments between Lavrans and Kristin, and Lavrans and Ragnfrid.  I can see why Undset got her award.  This book is going to stay with me for a very long time.

pg. 498 To me it seems now 'tis not long since I myself was a boy__and yet is it many years since you were the little light-haired maid that ran about after me, wherever I might stand or go__you followed your father so lovingly__God reward you, my Kristin, for the joy I had of you__"  "Aye__if He reward me as I rewarded you_" She sank on her knees before him, caught his wrists, and kissed the palms of his hands as she hid her weeping face in them.  "Oh father, my dear father__no sooner was I a grown maid than I paid you for your love with the bittersweet sorrow__"

"Nay, nay, child; weep not so."  He drew his hands loose, and lifted her up beside him, and they sat as before.  "Much joy have I had of you, in these years too, Kristin.  Fair and hopeful children have I seen growing up by your knee, a notable and understanding woman are you grown__and I have seen that more and more you have used yourself to seek help where it may best be had, when you were in any trouble.  Kristin, my most precious gold, weep not so sorely.  You may hurt him you bear under your belt," he whispered.  "Nay, sorrow not so."  But he could not check her weeping.  Then he lifted his daughter up into his lap and sat her on his knee; now he had her even as when she was a little one__her arms around his neck and her face pressed to his shoulder.

pg. 499 "For I have seen it more and more with each year I have lived__no worthier work can there be for a human soul that has found grace conceive somewhat of God's loving_kindness, than to serve Him and watch and pray for those men whose sight is darkened by the shadow of the things of this world.  Yet must I say, my Kristin__hard would it be for me to give up for God's sake the life I have lived on my farms and lands, with cares for earthly things and with worldly cheer__with your mother by my side, and with you my children.  Therefore must a man suffer in patience, when he has begotten offspring of his body, that it scorch his heart if he lose them or the world go badly with them.  God who gave them souls, owned them, and not I__"

pg. 500 Lavrans said softly:  "Grieve no more for what you have to repent towards me, Kristin.  But, remember it, when your children grow big, and you may deem that they bear them not towards you or towards their father as you might think was right.  And remember then, too, what I said to you of my youth.  Faithful is your love to them, I know it well; but you are hardest where you love the most, and I have marked that in these boys of yours dwells self-will enow," he said with a little smile.

pg. 501  He sprang from his horse and took his daughter in his arms, holding her in his embrace for the last time.  Again and again he made the sign of the cross over her and commended her to the keeping of God and the holy saints.  At last he said that now she must go.

This is truly what Kristin and her father has needed.  They are like an extension of each other, they love deeply, and need each other's love.  This may help Kristin find her peace and joy, or at least let go of all the guilt and shame and suffering she has held inside her for hurting her father, whom she loves so dearly.  Lavrans is desperately trying not only to let her know he forgives her of all she feels she has done wrong with him, but he is trying to give her spiritual, parental guidance to help her with her own children and husband, since he knows he is dying.

Lavrans giving Ragnfrid his mother's gold ring, her knowing he had intended it to be buried on his finger was such a testament to his love for her.  
pg. 503 "You said before, this ring you would take with you to the grave," she said in the same whisper.  "None was to bear it after you were gone__"  "Therefore must you never take it from off your hand, Ragnfrid__promise me that.  I would not have any bear it after you__"

"I know not whether 'tis so that you have deemed I held Kristin dearer than you.  True it is that she was my greatest joy and that she brought me my worst sorrow.__But you were mother to them all.  It seems now to me that the worst of all will be to leave you, when I go hence. . .    "Therefore must you never give my ring to any__not to either of our daughters even__but say that they must leave it on your hand."

pg. 506  Ragnfried Ivarsdatter thought__'twas like a new bridal night, and a strange bridal night.  Happiness and unhappiness flowed together and lifted her up on waves so mighty that she felt within her now the first loosening of the roots of her soul__now had death's hand given her, too, a wench__the first time.  "Speak to me, Lavrans," she prayed him softly.  "I am so weary__"  The man whispered:  "Venite ad me, omnes qui laboratis et onerati estis.  Ego reficiam vos, hath the Lord said."  He passed an arm around her shoulders and drew her in to his side.  They lay a little, cheek against cheek.  Then she said softly:  "Now have I prayed God's Mother to make for me this prayer, that I may not outlive you, my husband, many days."  His lips and eyelashes touched her cheek in the darkness as lightly as the touch of butterflies' wings.  "My Ragnfrid, my Ragnfrid__"

It is truly amazing how this story shows how couples can go through life loving each other, more than they ever realize, and only in the moments they realize it is coming to an end, are they able to connect on such a level as Lavrans and Ragnfrid finally have. Bittersweet.....

Translation of Lavrans Latin scripture words:  Matthew 11:28  "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

[PatH]

It is truly amazing how this story shows how couples can go through life loving each other, more than they ever realize, and only in the moments they realize it is coming to an end, are they able to connect on such a level as Lavrans and Ragnfrid finally have. Bittersweet.....

It's bittersweet, and very moving indeed.  I also find it a bit frustrating.  I think it's a Scandinavian trait to be so closemouthed about feelings.  Lavrans and Ragnfrid have one serious conversation, when Kristin is married, in which each reveals a lot to the other.  The conversation changes both of them, but they don't talk to each other about it, simply act on their somewhat mistaken notions about what the other is feeling.  They don't finally sort it out again until Lavrans is dying.

[bellamarie]

I agree, many things in this story has been frustrating for me, but it is the way people are even in the 21st century.  Lack of communication, live in the same house as husband and wife, and never really express your feelings.  I guess it's at least comforting to the both of them to sort it out before he dies.  It reminds me of a quote:

“Too often they don't realize what they have until it's gone.
...they're too stubborn to say, 'Sorry, I was wrong'
they hurt the ones closest to their hearts,
and we let the most foolish things tear us apart”    ― Marilyn Monroe

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/423418-too-often-they-don-t-realize-what-they-have-until-it-s

[BarbStAubrey]

Spent time at the Trenckmann Memorial Library in the old German Free School in Austin that was opened in 1871 - Austin was originally a Norwegian town - so much so that after the Alamo when Mrs. Dickinson was allowed to leave and eventually married a German cabinet maker, because he was German they were not allowed to live in Austin - there were German and Czech communities all around Austin and around the time of the Civil War the Germans moved into Austin. All to say the Trenckmann is not only a private library where you do not borrow books but it houses both old and new Scandinavian and German books both in English and in the languages of Northern Europe.

All kinds of interesting bits - but this I thought was important for us - in a book entitled - Women in Old Norse Society - I copied out these bits -

The Old Norse writers of the thirteenth century bear the latest and fullest witness because of their identification with their German pagan forebears. Interpreted with caution, they can testify to the poetry and mythology of early Germanic peoples on the Continent as well as to the culture of their more recent Nordic relatives. The poetry and mythology presents divine female figures and identifies four image of human women: the warrior, the prophetess/sorceress, the revenger, and the inciter. Although the divine figures disappeared with the acceptance of Christianity, the human images survived for a millennium, not only in poetry but also in the prose of the heroic sagas and the sagas of Icelanders. The poetic images, however, rarely permit us to discern the daily social existence of Germanic women on the continent as well as in the north. The basic and ordinary problems pertaining to the lives of women, such as reproduction, marriage, and work, can be best examined by close reading of the sagas.

Using my words to sum up another explanation in this book he describes the mingling of pre-Christian with the Christian by using a reference to two types of rivers, both known and active in Nordic lands – there is a river that torrential rivers open from beneath glaciers that carry sediment, mud, gravel and stones that when reflected by the sun carry a milky-white sheen, in contrast to the rivers that carry water off the surface of mountains that are crystal clear, not reflecting and they appear as the black rivers. He uses this distinction to explain the mixture of Pagan and Christian in the north by suggestion the Pagan, native or ancient are represented in the clear streams whereas, the Christian, imported with medieval elements emerge in the white rivers.  

In the chapter about Marriage, it says,

marriage was basically a commercial contract, the so-called marriage by purchase, arranged between the groom and the father of the bride…Blessed by the Church and certainly not in conflict with Christian principles, the celebration of the engagement and the wedding in two steps, undoubtedly had Germanic roots…Pagan marriage was this arranged to ensure the orderly passing of property from one generation to the next…In short, the rules restricting marriage and sexual activity were prompted more by a practical concern to safeguard property from reproductive despoliation than by social consideration.

Interesting it is a wonder Erlend marries Kristin –  "in 15 Sagas the illicit love visit appears more than twenty time and the thirteenth century authors of the saga were conscious of the ecclesiastical criticism of men’s sexual behavior." There is mention of two brothers known as ‘restless and improvident in love affairs and law suits.” And a young women friendly with several men finds herself pregnant and names one as the father. But using a ordeal performed under the auspices of a priest failed to prove his paternity thus producing a long lasting feud between families. To show a wife respect, a man sleeps with her every night and pays more than normal rate for a slave acquired for sexual purposes. Servant girls were between slave and freeborn women and were expected to be available for employer and his guests, releaving the daughter of this responsibility. Women took care of and as they aged depended upon her husband’s illegitimate children as freely as her own.

At first, churchmen attempted to impose gender equality among lay people in certain areas of human conduct, but they quickly singled out women for harsher punishment in sexual crimes. The discrimination, moreover, increased over the years…the new Christian law for Norway and Iceland imposed harsher fines on women than men. The rise of misogyny is particularly noticeable in liturgical matters where churchmen’s authority was unopposed.

Then a whole list of ways the church denies women the sacraments from,

dying in childbirth she was denied the last rites...to...sick and unmarried women denied the sacraments - where as, a pagan woman was not considered capable of committing sexual crimes but was regarded as damaged property.

[BarbStAubrey]

My search in the library was to look into the Saxon version of the Bible that Germanized the story of Jesus - it put the story not only in the vernacular of the Saxon but used Saxon references to retell the story and this version would have been available in Norway at the time of Kristin and Erlend since it was written in the 10th century. Example when Jesus is wrapped in swaddling clothes, included are many gifts of precious jewels that are in keeping the how special this child is to the world and heaven is described as a hillside field of lush green grass which reminds me of how Kristin describes her childhood home.

[PatH]

Barb, thanks for all the info on women in old Norse society.  It fits in nicely with what we see in the book, and amplifies it.

The four roles of women amuse me--warrior, prophetess/sorceress, revenger, and inciter.  You see a lot of the last two in the sagas.  The women tend to hold grudges (so do the men) and egg their men on to even the score.

[bellamarie]

I don't see men of today as outspoken and meddlesome as the Norse saga men.  It seems like they use the drinking ale to bicker & brawl. 

[Halcyon]

Barb, Thank you for your continuing research.  I find the history of the Church fascinating and wonder if you could recommend a basic book for me?

The four roles of women amuse me--warrior, prophetess/sorceress, revenger, and inciter.

Although I know nothing about the Sagas the roles of women insinuate that at one time Norse women were revered and powerful, more so than in Kristin's time.