Kristin Lavransdatter

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

April/May Book Club Online

Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset

This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.   I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better. Schedule: April 21-?  Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4 Questions: Chapter 1: How does the medieval life seem to you?  Can you imagine yourself there? How do Kristin’s feelings for her two parents differ? On the trip in the mountains, Kristin thinks she sees an elf-maiden beckoning to her.  What do you think really happened?  Why does Undset include this incident? Chapters 2-4: As he shows Kristin the church at Hamar, Brother Edvin chats to her about art.  What do we learn about cultural influences in Norway? Ragnfrid seems terribly guilt-ridden.  Why do you suppose this is? Fru Aashild reminds Kristin of the dwarf-woman.  What does this suggest?  Is it important? Do you think any of Aashild’s remedies did any good?

Discussion Leader: PatH

[PatH]

Welcome to 14th century Norway--a rather different world.  The days of the vikings are over, the saga stories have already happened, the Greenland colony is almost forgotten, but the viking spirit still lives on.

Norway has been Christian for 300 years, but the old paganism and superstitions aren't forgotten.  Trolls and spirits lurk in the countryside wherever you get away from the protection of human settlements.

What was it like, living then?  What was it like for the young Kristin, growing up?

[bellamarie]

Not sure where to begin, but I have to admit, I was a bit intrigued, and frightened when Kristin spotted the dwarf-maiden.  

pg. 17  But all at once she was aware of a face amid the leaves__there stood a lady, pale, with waving, flaxen hair__the great, light-grey eyes and wide, pink nostrils were like Guldsveinen's.  She was clad in something light, leaf-green, and branches and twigs hid her up to the broad breasts, which were covered over with brooches and sparkling chains.

The little girl gazed upon the figure, and as she gazed the lady raised a hand and showed her a wreath of golden flowers__she beckoned with it.

I have not read much about medieval times, so I ask, was the dwarf-maiden trying to lure Kristin to come with her, and if so why?  The dwarf-maiden scared the horses, and Kristin's father was certainly upset, placing his gold cross necklace around Kristin's neck as a protective measure.  He did not want anyone to tell Kristin's mother about this.  Why?

[PatH]

Bellamarie, you anticipated the question I was writing while you were posting.  Yes, the elf-maiden was trying to lure Kristin to come with her.  I'm not quite sure what would happen then, but Kristin surely wouldn't come back to her family.  Lavrans didn't want anyone to tell Ragnfrid because he didn't want her to know the danger Kristin had been in.

But Undset knew there aren't really elf-maidens, and this is a fairly realistic book, so what really happened, and why did Undset put in this incident.

[bellamarie]

So, if Undset is writing this fictional story about medieval times, which I assume people back then were superstitious, and believed in these dwarf-maidens why would this not seem realistic?  It reminds me of reading a children's storybook to my daycare children about leprechauns, on St. Patrick's day.  The people of Ireland seemed to believe in leprechauns although they never could catch one.  

I have to wonder if the dwarf-maiden would have kept Kristin trapped, as a special prize to own.  Undset seems to describe Kristin's hair, and features, as something rare and beautiful, to be revered, and to possess.

Good question, PatH., Why indeed, does Undset put this in the story?  For me it injects fear, and caution of being alone.

[Halcyon]

A few pages before the elf-maiden incident there is a rather long conversation between Lavrans and Isrid insinuating that deep in the mountains there are those household "that pay neither taxes nor tithes",  people who have "exhausted their peace in the village." Lavrans says "I've seen herds of cattle and flocks of sheep, but I don't know wether they belonged to people or to the others."  He also talks about once seeing three boys who bared their teeth at him.  Could these people be bands of outcasts who make their living by thieving?  Having said that I wonder who "the others" are.  Maybe Undset is simply trying to make the point that some of the old superstitions still prevail.  Look at those here who insist that Sasquatch roams the woods and maybe he does.  Or Nellie.

[JoanK]

I am struck with the atmosphere of the book: a mixture of idyllic beauty and terror. the elf lady fits into that. You never forget that bad things may be lurking among the beauty. Even Kristen's beauty is somehow scary.

It sounds like the elf-lady was someone Kristen already knew about. I'm guessing that Undset is using a well known Norwegian superstition?

It's hard to know why she included it without having read the rest of the book. The implication is that there is something otherworldly about Kristen, or her fate. Especially since the book is called the wreath. Does this otherworldly aspect of the plot continue?

[JoanK]

I'm intrigued and confused by the compound where Kristen lives. She's always going into different houses. Has anyone else figured it out?

[BarbStAubrey]

Sounds like - I have to get into the story - I am delayed - but from what I am reading here sounds like she meets Huldra who lures men into endless cave systems or lures them into the forest in order to secure her freedom - Huldra usually appears out of the rain and mist, friendly then entices till she cannot be resisted. There is another folk myth that she has a long cow's tail that she hides tying it under her skirt till she gets married in a church and then her tail will fall off and she will become human. She is dangerous and when old becomes very ugly however, she becomes gentle and caring to anyone who makes her, through marriage a Christian.

Supposedly she was a married lady with lots of children and only had time to wash half of them when either god or an angle comes to the cottage and ashamed she hides the dirty children. As punishment she is hidden from everyone and lives in the forest only seen when the air is full of water.

I remember visiting Leeds UK in either 1979 or 80 and the young women I was working with researching old needlework took me on a tour telling me about this farm house and that one where this or that corn doll was recently used to ward off the spirits that brought in one house polio and in others any contagious diseases. And how a house recently sold that had a history of happy marriages and when they cleaned it out for remodeling they found all these hundreds of year old braided hearts tucked in the beams and spaces in the attic - and even here in the states, just outside Austin in a smaller community, Lockhart only 30 years ago they had to close down half the school and build another (which they had planned anyhow but this hustled it up) because the girls were so terrified that La Llorona was in the water spouts of the girls bathroom they would not use the bathroom and soon would not even attend school.

And so I can only imagine getting lost in the forests and never finding your way back was a fear and would be explained as the work of a fairy or goblin or for the Norwegians, trolls or Huldra. In this case the story could be the demise of either Kristin or her father who could have been lured away and she would be left to find her way home - I need to read to see what the fear was all about or if it relates to the story in another way.

[PatH]

Barb, glad to see you here.  Don't worry about delayed, the first section reads fast, and I think we'll all need some time to sort out things.

I know Huldra in a benign form, though not by name--she's in a book I couldn't find today.  She's a troll maiden, who becomes human through Christian marriage, losing her tail.  She makes a good wife, and, because of her origin, knows a lot of ways to keep the farm prosperous.

I've done some digging since I posted the question.  The elf-maiden lures young girls into the mountain to be brides of the mountain king.  Of course they aren't seen again.  It fits with your suggestion of the fear of goblins, trolls, or elves as explanation of people who disappeared.  That must have happened a lot.  Kristin could easily have disappeared on her little escapade.

[bellamarie]

Well, Barb, I can not wait for you to get your book and catch up.  Your insight is always so interesting.  Now, my heavens you have just about spooked me out of my chair reading your posts.  Interesting you speak of tails and weddings, because the witch-wife Lady Aashid, is called in when the baby Ulvhild is injured, and Ragnfrid the mother feels the priest can not make the child well.  This witch-wife says, " Ay, have you not heard that all evil drags a long tail behind it?"  

Also, Kristin, thinks the witch-wife seems like the dwarf-maiden she saw years ago.  When she tells the witch-wife about seeing the dwarf-maiden and how she offered her the golden wreath and she refused it,  Lady Aashild tells Kristin, "You were wise to fly, since you were only a child then.  But have you never heard of folk who took the gold the dwarfs offered, and after bound the troll in stone?"

Lady Aashid tells Kristen, " But you, Kristin,--you should be wedded to a man bred in knightly ways and curteisie__."

I get the feeling Kristin's mother and Lady Aashid could be related or have a secret.  Something has Ragnfrid very upset and shameful.

PatH., Once again we were posting at the same time.  Your explanation of Huldra, who becomes human after a Christian marriage, and knows a lot of ways to keep the farm prosperous set a light bulb off in my head!  Ragnfrid is said to be very well with property, and Lavrans includes her in the taking care of the property.  Is it possible Ragnfrid was Huldra, and that is the shame & secret she and Lady Aashid share? 

Halycon, I did read the family lost three sons, I wonder if the three  ruffians spotted is reference to them in some way.  Lavrans, seems to have a soft spot for the poor run down people.

[PatH]

I'm intrigued and confused by the compound where Kristen lives. She's always going into different houses. Has anyone else figured it out?

It's kind of confusing; here's what I make of it, by combining information in the backs of the two translations.  Instead of having a big farmhouse with many rooms, you had a number of one-room buildings, each with its own function, one or at most two stories high.  These were arranged around two courtyards.  The inner courtyard had rooms for daily life--the big hall, kitchen, storehouses, kitchen, weaving room, maybe servants' quarters, and at Jørundgaard, a steward's house.  The other courtyard (it's called outer, but it doesn't surround the inner one, it's next to it) has the farm-related buildings--barns, stables, etc.  The buildings of a courtyard were sometimes linked by a fence.

Here are some pictures I found.  They don't have any documentation, so I don't know if these are old, or replicas or what, but they give the idea.


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/101401429086250504/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/101401429086250491/

[PatH]

It seems like a harsh life.  You're carrying food from the kitchen through snow and rain.  The hall is heated by a fireplace in the middle, with a hole in the roof for the smoke to get out.  There isn't much privacy.  The big hall has a bench along each wall, a fireplace in the middle, and a long table in front of the bench on one side.  There are two real beds in the room, one for the master and mistress, with maybe one or more of the children (Kristin sleeps with her parents at the beginning of the book) and one for more children.  Any leftovers have beds made up on a bench, with the servants if there isn't a servants' house.

[bellamarie]

WOW!  PatH.,  Thank you so much for the links.  It sure is nothing like I had pictured in my mind.

[BarbStAubrey]

I'll be able to catch up with y'all by tomorrow - I can see how we in this country kept separate quarters going for many years to keep the main house from the kitchen fires the kitchen on farms and ranches was a separate building and then slaves in the south and cowboys in the west were in in separate quarters.

[Halcyon]

The sleeping arrangements reminded me of Angela's Ashes where kids and clothing and blankets were piled together willy nilly just to keep warm. I wonder if there were cases of sexual abuse and how it was dealt with.

[PatH]

The houses look very modest, but we mustn't forget that Lavrans is an important person--a minor member of the gentry.  He had been a king's retainer, and when they pass through Hamar he's invited to dine with the bishop.  He's fairly rich, too.  He owns a lot of land, which is farmed by tenants, and keeps on acquiring more, they have some silver dishes, though not apparently enough for everyone, and he's enlarging and improving his house.

In a way he's the medieval equivalent of Mr. Woodhouse or Mr. Knightly.

[PatH]

I wonder that too, Halcyon, but don't have any answers.  The lack of privacy would make it harder to get away with, and the rules for sexual conduct were pretty strict.

[JoanK]

The pictures are really interesting. I suppose it was easier to heat them that way, and you only needed to heat the room you were actually using.

In the second picture, there are white things on the side of one of the buildings. I suppose it's some kind of design?

[PatH]

Ooooh! I clicked on one of the pictures and got to a whole album of them, including the inside of the Hall.  Here's the first, and you can go on from it to get the rest.

http://hjerleid.trykker.com/2010/08/25/jørungard/jorundgard-85/

[ANNIE]

Just picked up my book before leaving town for a weeklong trip.  I have started reading the first part and feel like it's an adult Heidi!  Kidding, just kidding!

[PatH]

Welcome, Annie, I'm glad you got your book.  The first 4 chapters will go very fast, by which time I'll have the rest of the questions up.   It's going to diverge from Heidi a fair bit.

[PatH]

I read that the sagas were a huge influence on Undset, and it's easy to believe.  Nunnally's translation reads like a saga--the spare, understated style, the rather straightforward narrative, with feelings described briefly if at all (Undset puts in a lot more inner thoughts, though).  Archer doesn't have the style, but the narrative is there.

Evidently the old ballads are a big influence too, and the book is full of things that a Norwegian would recognize as references to ballads, plus a lot of the plot comes from a ballad.  This is frustrating, since none of these are available to English-speakers, but ballads tend to have pretty universal themes.  Certainly I devoured the book without knowing about the ballads.

[Halcyon]

PatH, Would you enlighten us about the sagas?  Or a good place to look.

[BarbStAubrey]

On line are a few sites that reproduced some of the Sagas

Here is a rather extensive list of downloadable Norwegian Sagas - http://www.norsemyth.org/p/books.html

Here in the Gutenberg is Helmskringla - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/598/598-h/598-h.htm

And here is a PDF for Eglis - http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Egla/Egils_saga.pdf

The history of Norway shows a nation that was secondary to what is now a separate nation, Iceland and Greenland - both were important as part of and not just an outpost to Norway - Denmark had control of Norway for a few centuries - and the area of the Vikings was not as defined as we imagine - all to say that the Icelandic Sagas are about Norway

Here is a page about the Norse gods - http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/sagas.html

This is a nice attractive page with links to some Norse Sagas - http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/sagas.htm

[PatH]

The sagas are kind of a special taste.  They are stories, mostly Icelandic but some Norwegian, which started out as oral history, were written down, often copied and re-copied, changing along the way.  They are myths, history, family history.  The history and family history ones were meant to be accurate, but after a few copyings you can't be sure.  I've read three: The Graenlendinga Saga and Eirik's Saga (Erick the Red) deal with the settling of Greenland in the late 900s and the discovery and attempt to settle Vinland (now shown to be Nova Scotia) around 1000.  Egil's Saga is the story of Egil Skallagrimsson, who was both a psychopathic murderer and a renowned poet.

The two that Undset particularly liked, which are much admired for their literary quality, are Njal's Saga (Burnt Njal) and Laxdale Saga.  They are complex stories, with family feuds and squabbles, spanning generations.

Many of these are available in paperback.

Here's a link which lists a huge number of them.  I didn't know there were that many.  If you go to the tab labeled Index, and click on anything in the "English" list, you get a translation, though I didn't care for the one I looked at.

http://www.sagadb.org/

[PatH]

Barb, you were posting while I was writing.  Thanks for all those links.  Now I know where my afternoon is going to go.

[Halcyon]

Barb and PatH  Thank you for the links and the history lesson.  Needless to say I know very little about that part of our world.

[JoanK]

most of us don't, I'll bet.

[bellamarie]

Before I got my book at the library I had started reading the sample on my ipad which was:  Translated by Tiina Nunnally

copyright Tiina Nunnally, 1997  (Originally published in Norwegian as Kransen by H. Aschehoug & Company, Oslo, 1920)

As PatH., says,

Nunnally's translation reads like a saga--the spare, understated style, the rather straightforward narrative, with feelings described briefly if at all (Undset puts in a lot more inner thoughts, though).  Archer doesn't have the style, but the narrative is there.

My book from the library is:  Translated by Charles Archer and J. S. Scott

copyright 1923, 1925, 1927, By Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.  NOBEL PRIZE EDITION  February, 1929

Since I have read the first few chapters from both books, I must say I like the translation by Charles Archer much better than Nunnally.  I get the feel for the land, people and era in Archer's translation, it puts me right there.  I like the notes and the true essence of their language.  

Although, in the ibook translated by Nunnally, it has the Introduction, which provides us with much information about Sigrid Undset.  I especially like the very first quote of hers:

If you peel away the layer of ideas and conceptions that are particular to your own time period, then you can step right into the Middle Ages and see life from the medieval point of view__and it will coincide with your own view.  And if you try to reproduce precisely what you have seen, the narrative form will follow automatically.  Then you will write as a contemporary.  It is only possible to write novels from your own time.            __Sigrid Undset

Halcyon,  Unless someone has had the good fortune to experience visiting this part of the world, I would imagine very few of us have much knowledge of it as well.  Google is a great way to help us.  Thank you all for the great links you are providing for us.

Getting back to the story, does anyone else get the feel Ragnfrid and Lady Aashid could be related?  They certainly are keeping a secret between them for sure.

  

 

[Halcyon]

Bellamarie,  There is a sentence, after Kristin had been collecting dew, when Ragnfrid lay thinking, "Fru Aashild never mentioned that they knew each other in the past, and that frightened Ragnfrid quite badly."  Why would it frighten her?

 There is also the conversation about Fru Aashild's "glory days".  It seems like there are hidden meanings only the two of them understand.

I don't know if they are related but the certainly have a past.

[Halcyon]

How do Kristin’s feelings for her two parents differ?


Early in Chapter 1 Ragnfrid is described as a "mournful spirit" while Lavrans is said to be a "lively spirit".  Kristin's spirit seems to match her father's. What fun to leave the dreariness of everyday life with her mother to adventure with her father.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I'm glad you ended up with the translation you prefer.  It's definitely not a "one size fits all" choice.

Yes, that conversation sounds like the two women have a past, and it's not always clear whether Aashild is talking to Ragnfrid, Kristin, or herself.  Don't forget that Jørundgaard was Ragnfrid's inheritance, and she grew up near there.

Yes, Halcyon, it's easy to understand why Kristin was happy to go off with her father, but it was too bad of Ragnfrid to lay a guilt trip on her: "are you so happy then, Kristin, to be going so far away from me, and for such a long time?"  When Ulvhild is born, Ragnfrid eases up a bit, mush to Kristin's delight.

[bellamarie]

When Ulvhild was born it is like Ragnfrid comes to life. 

pg. 34  Ragnfrid doted so on this new baby that she went on suckling it during the second year of its life; wherefore, on Sira Eirik"s counsel, she left off some what her strict fasts and religious exercises while she had the child at breast.  On this account and by reason of her joy in Ulvhild, he bloom came back to her, and Lavrans thought he had never seen his wife so happy or so fair and kindly in all the years he had been wed.  Kristen, too, felt that great happiness had come to them with this tender little sister.  That her mother's heavy mood made a stillness about her home had never come into her thought; she had deemed it was but as it should be that her mother should correct and chide her, while her father played and jested with her.  But Ragnfrid was much gentler with her now and gave her more freedom; petted her more, too; and so Kristin little heeded that her mother had much less time to tend her. 

After the accident Ragnfrid says to the priest:  "I have lost so many, priest; I cannot lose her too!"  She then says, " None of my children have I loved like this little one__if she too be taken from me, full sure I am my heart will break."   "I can not live without Ulvhild"
 
I read they lost three sons, and when Ragnfrid was pregnant for Ulvhild, they were hoping to have a son.  But Ragnfrid was thrilled with the little girl.  So, it seems Kristin was not close to her mother, and her father doted on her to make up for it.  Now I can see why he did not want anyone to tell Ragnfrid about the dwarf_maiden approaching Kristin.  The thought of Kristin being in harms way, the idea they could have lost yet another child would have been too disturbing for Ragnfrid. 
 

[PatH]

Bellamarie, you've prompted me to put in a comparison of the two translations.  Each has its own rhythm and merits, and sometimes I like one better, sometimes the other.

P. 38: Ragnfrid loved this new child so much that she continued to nurse her even after she turned two.  For that reason Ragnfrid followed Sira Eirik's advice and refrained from participating in her usual strict fasts and devout rituals for as long as she had the child at her breast.  Because of this and because of her joy for Ulvhild, Ragnfrid blossomed; and Lavrans thought he had never seen his wife look so happy and beautiful and approachable in all the years of their marriage.

Kristin also felt it was a great joy that they had been given her little infant sister.  She had never thought about the fact that her mother's somber disposition had made life at home so subdued.  She thought things were as they should be: her mother disciplined or admonished her, while her father teased and played with her.  Now her mother was gentler toward her and gave her more freedom; she caressed her more often too, so Kristin didn't notice that her mother also had less time to spend with her.

P. 43: I have lost so many, priest, I cannot lose her too.

and: Never have I loved any of my children as I have loved this one.  If she too is taken from me, I think my heart will break.

[bellamarie]

PatH., thank you for the comparisons, it does indeed show a stark difference in the style, and yes, each has it's own rhythm and merit.  For me, Archer's reads poetically, where Nunnally's has been modernized, the poetic feel taken out.  In just these comparisons, in Archer's I feel the depth of Ragnfrid's loss, and how the family felt about her living in like a depressed state, until Ulvhid was born.

It's kind of like two people drinking a cup of tea, both tea bags are Earl Grey, but one steeped the tea a bit longer, giving more of the true essence of the flavor. 

[Halcyon]

No where does it say the birth order of the children.  I wonder if Kristin was born after the three boys or if she was the eldest?  Do you think there could have been some mystery surrounding her birth?  Just making wild guesses here. 

What happened to Ragnfrid that makes her think she is so worthless and God is punishing her for all her sins?

On Page 41 there is an exchange where her brother Trond says " No doubt she means that I am the one who caused this (the accident)".  His sister shot him a look of hatred and replied "Trond know what I mean."  What is that secret and is Fru Aashild privy to it?  Many secrets to be revealed.

[PatH]

It doesn't say in the part we've read, but the eldest was a boy.  I think all three boys were born before Kristin, but I'm not sure.

[BarbStAubrey]

A couple of tid bits today - I think those who translated in the 1930s and even into the 40s were by and large more poetic -

I had read when I was still in High School the E. Allison Peers translation of The Dark Nigh of the Soul and The Accent to Mt. Carmel - my old Doubleday paperback acquired soon after for the grand sum of 25 cents was packed away with other memories and when my life took a tumblesault I needed the comfort and direction of St. John of the Cross and simply purchasing a copy over at St. Eds - was not yet popular and we did not yet have Amazon much less the internet. Well this copy was translated by Roy Campbell, S.J. - the difference for me was so stark I thought maybe I was dreaming that I had received so much when I was glued reading several times the books not realizing the difference was in the translation - Sure enough I found and dug into my boxes - and there was the beauty of language and what for me was a clarity of intent -

It could be that since the Peers translation was my first and I did read that translation several times it was more than a lack of beauty and clarity but looking for the comfort of memory - but i have compared since and I think we were more willing to decipher thoughts that start in the negative to make the point about the positive where as today we are offered books written more like advertisement copy that clearly gets to the point often using simpler words or words with such clarity as compared to a nuanced word with shades of meaning and therefore takes some of the poetry of sound from a sentence.

I too have the older Archer translation and what I find as a wonderful addition is not only the explanation of the compound room by room with a couple of sketches of the compound and of the interior of the main hall but it also listed the book of Norwegian Folk Tales and the author that Undset preferred -  Norwegian Folk Tales by Asbjornsen and Moe. Yep, found a used copy on Amazon - not prime so it may take a couple of weeks. Not sure if the copy will have all the stories these two collected and published since they appear to be the Scandinavian counterpart to the Brothers Grimm and Charles Perrault.  

And then to that hall and as someone here questioned the lack of privacy - I am remembering the scene in Dances with Wolves when the Costner character is chastised for being nosey when Kicking Bird is under the blanket with his wife. They too were sleeping lined up along the side of a large shelter with furs for bedding.

[bellamarie]

I get the impression all three boys came before Kristin as well, because she does not make any mention of brothers, and by those paragraphs we provided it shows Kristin has been a bit neglected emotionally by her mother.

Yes, lots of secrets to be revealed, I suspect.   I wonder why Lady Aashild felt this,  " Ay,'would be best for you if you took after Lavrans, both in mind and body, too."

What did this mean?  " Oh! these are words, words, and only words, Lady Aashid."  "Well," said the other, "truly Ragnfrid, there is not much that's worth buying so dear as with one's life."  "Nay, but there is," said Ragnfrid passionately; and she whispered so it could scarce be heard: "My husband."  "Ragnfrid," said Lady Aashild, in a low voice, "so hath many a maid thought when she starve to bind a man to her and gave her maiden hood to do it.  But have you not read of men and maids who gave to God all they owned, went into cloister or naked into the wilds, and repented after.  Ay, they are called fools in the godly books.  And 'would. Sure be sinful to think God cheated them over their bragain,"

Is Lady Aashild implying Ragnfrid, gave her soul for her husband, and now God is making her pay for it?