The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online

[BarbStAubrey]

Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers

Our First Week, October 9 - October 15 Discussing, Chapter I through Chapter 9 Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain. Trollope writes a story as a dance with all the complexity suggested by the details.  The Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, introduced with usual detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, and the countryside of Trollop's Britain. "— Mr Harding stands for – outward beauty, even ritual for its own sake, and he is egalitarian – “all porters and stokers and guards and brakesman ought to be able to go to church”. The stopping of fun and travel on the one day a week Victorians had off a bete noire of most novelists."

A few questions to help pull us in ---

1] The question of choosing a new Bishop is not based on merit but an act of political chance. What is the real struggle that is at play naming the new Bishop?
2] What interesting detail did you learn about the Archdeacon Grantly
3] Which of the newspapers mentioned have a more liberal slant?

4] What interesting and relevant details do we learn about Dr. Proudie and his wife.
5] After reviewing the first paragraphs of each of our 9 chapters, how do they each open the tone of the chapters? Were the first paragraphs written as a Teaser, Autobiographical, Conversational, Announcing Facts, or Setter a Scene.

6] What story line does Trollop use to introduce the scope of Archdeacon Grantly's responsibilities to the Cathedral?
7] What is the nature of oppostion between Dr. Grantly and Mr. Slope
8] What message does Dr. Stanhope's character represent explaining the traditional High Church 
 
9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.
10] What sentences have you found that are a pithy of words of wisdom?

The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:    Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35,  Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs  Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -

Discussion Leader: Barb

[BarbStAubrey]

Whew - something about AT&T and the entire city was affected - took literally minutes to just write an email - every few words and everything would stop for about 30 seconds then the next 3 or if lucky 4 words - on and on all day - regardless email or posting on any website - it was all our servers - some who like me, work from home finally just closed down - And so our latest may be invisible currents bringing us an entire new way using this technology while in Victorian Britain the latest was combustion and mechanical technology with trains the most recent way for laborers to finally take their family on a picnic the one day, or for some the only half day, they had off a week -

I remember my father working 6 days a week as a normal work week and only after WWII did he get half day on Saturday and within 2 or 3 years all day Saturday. Growing up I remember he usually slept in on Sunday while Mom went to 6:00 Mass and when we started school my sister and I went to the children's mass at 9:00 - He often picked up up from Mass at around 10: then we walked down and picked up my Aunt, his sister, at the German Lutheran church and we all went back home to dinner on the table.

Today the empty Churches Bellamarie - I wonder is it technology or maybe, and I am just wondering - there is a change in our population - we are just barely over 50% white - the traditional 'white' mostly with European connection churches did not do much to adapt to the customs and thinking of the Brown folks and there are many others who practice different religions - but then the same cry is among the Jewish community unless they are among the really conservative wearing distinctive clothing - like the book we read this summer, the children of those who retired at Venice Beach were not weekly attending their synagogues. 

Thanks for keeping things alive Bellamarie and Jonathan -

Jonathan your quote about Madame Neroni got me started before the computer became impossible yesterday. I was intrigued with her and the name Madame Neroni's - The Neroni it seems is the Albanian spelling for Nero - and there are large swaths of Italy with a huge Albanian population that goes back to the Middle Ages - wars with Turkey and other upheavals - in the area of Naples and Venice is where the Albanian nobility is found - there is a strong patriarchal viewpoint and laws to support this viewpoint including that if a wife displeases a husband he is allowed to kill her. Wow - and still on the books evidently - and so I wondered about the back story on Madame Neroni whose husband was supposedly abusive - by British standards he probably was but if the name does suggest this Albanian heritage then Madeline would be happy to be alive and easily, I can see her sultry ways as not just hiding her pain and shame but showing to herself she is still an attractive women. Her dressing being more colorful and elaborate would also fit the colorful ethnic dress of Albanians.

All and all, the Circus of Nero is more often shown as the Circus of Neroni - Nero we know for fiddling while Rome burned but there is more to the story - Something to do with switching blame from Christians, who could do nothing right during the reign of several preceding Emperors, to the Jews where the fire started. And so, I can see Madame Neroni as the spark or fire in the middle of this tug between the traditional conservative High Church and the liberal Low Church represented in Slope.

Here is a bit about Nero translated from an Italian-Albanian web site.

Nero is a Roman emperor whom we all want to hate, and not without reason. He was a neat administrator, and was surrounded by skilled people, including his tutor - the Seneca writer. However, he was a ruthless killer, beginning with the murder of his half-brother, who was supposed to share power. Continuing with his wife, Oktavia, whom she abandoned for his girlfriend Poppaea, and then executed for adultery. Perhaps to love his girlfriend he killed his mother, after a conspiracy went badly to kill him with a boat, was beaten to death. Later he killed the girlfriend after a moment of anger, while she was pregnant and was expecting her child.

Neron's great passion for his music and poetry caused him to force senators to sit and listen to his endless and futile recipe. Nero was also hated too much because he built his own big gold house in the ruins of what was previously Rome's public area. He persecuted a large number of Christians and his childhood insistence to gain fame at the Olympics in Greece made the empire to be divided. Neron was overthrown by a military revolt.

OK back later - actually shared more than I planned to say which was, I am here after being practically shut down yesterday - have tons to do today playing catch-up.   

[JoanK]

Jonathan if yourstudents are teens, that,s not an. at that goes tao  church.

[bellamarie]

After Mr. Slope's sermon, I had to laugh at this paragraph from our narrator:

There is, perhaps, no greater hardship at present inflicted on mankind in civilized and free countries than the necessity of listening to sermons.  No one but a preaching clergyman has, in these realms, the power of compelling an audience to sit silent and be tormented.  No one but a preaching clergyman can revel in platitudes, truisms, and untruisms and yet receive, as his undisputed privilege, the same respectful demeanour as though words of impassioned eloquence, or persuasive logic, fell from his lips. 

I laugh, because I picture not only adults, but teens and children sitting at Mass listening to a boring homily, and as my six year old Zoey often askes,  "How many more songs before it's over?"

Mr. Slope felt, "music had over meaning in the beautiful service which they had just heard."  and "But how much of the meaning of the words was lost when they produced with all the meretricious charms of melody!"

Well, Mr. Slope, I for one enjoy the music/hymns in our service.  For me, scripture comes alive!  For my granddaughter Zoey, she is able to determine when the Mass is over.   

But yes, change is coming to Barchester, and even though the ladies seem to be ready and willing to accept it, the church clergy clearly are not!

[JoanK]

There are all kinds of things in that convention that we don't understand. Scope is sending a message that he is from another branch of the religion completely with all kinds of implections for social class and religion.

[bellamarie]

Joan,  You may have been addressing me, rather than Jonathan about the students being teens.  I teach third grade CCD, but I can assure you, all catechism grades 1-8 are not attending Sunday Mass.  We discuss how to get the parents more active in participating in church, but the same reasons are told to us, "My Mom and Dad don't get up in time to go to church." I tell them there are many different times they could attend throughout the day, and even an evening Saturday Mass, yet still, no success if getting them to bring their children to church.  It does amaze me, they make sure they bring them to CCD class on Wednesday evenings.  It's so frustrating. 

Barb, Yes, we have factored into the lower attendance, due to less population, fallen away Catholics, and a church that seems to have attracted many because it does not do any structural readings, Eucharist, and is mostly like a music concert with a stage for the band and singers.  So, Mr. Slope could be on to something about losing the meaning of the words to music, but then...... are some able to hear the message better through music, rather than sermons?

[BarbStAubrey]

Could be on the music Bellamaire - I remember reading how before Christ, Jews were each required to sing during the service and something about when the 2nd Temple was built there was a new expectation that women were no longer allowed to sing - at the time the reason was they may bring into the Temple contemporary music sung in the street. I think when we read the Red Tent is when all this information was looked into about music. But then Slope's remarks I think was a swipe at Reverend Harding who, although humble and less concerned with the politics of position, was High Church.

As Joan shares, Slope is using his relationship with the Bishop's wife to one upmanship as he inserts in his conversation the Low or what then was considered more liberal version of the Anglican Church. Earlier we learned that the liberal viewpoint at this time in history was not supportive of the working class or women and one more group - was it unions? Although, I do not think unionization was an issue yet.  However, this is the time of Karl Marx. There was no such thing as communism but Marx was a revolutionary socialist.

[BarbStAubrey]

According to the notes in my copy, the issue of what was worn when preaching - the High Church group within the Church of England and in Barchester did not preach in white surplices where as the Tractarians or Puseyites would and the differences were highlighted because of the restoration in 1839 of the Roman Catholic hierarchy in England, opening England to the influence of Pope Pius IX. This initiated the "surplice riots" in Exeter in 1844-45. Then, there were violent disruptions in 1859, after this book was published, because of the introduction of lighted candles on the alter and a robed choir. The disturbance hit The Times and other newspapers.

These notes go on to say that High Churchman wore the long black frock with a narrow clerical collar were as Evangelicals wore a cut-away tailcoat, white shirt and high collar.

Another, in Anglican theology the term "real presence" denotes a belief that the actual body and blood of Jesus are present in the Eucharist as opposed to a belief that sees them present only symbolically or figuratively. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh my - naming the chapter "War" was significant - the Crimean War was being fought - this is the war where the poem of the Light Brigade was written -

"The Battle of Balaclava on 24 October, 1854 ended with the legendary British ‘Charge of the Light Brigade’, which was, although misguided, an astonishingly successful operation of war, with relatively light casualties - only 118 killed out of 620. The Russians were so frightened by the cold courage of the British troopers, they never again dared face them in the open field."

The Charge of the Light Brigade By Alfred, Lord Tennyson I Half a league, half a league, Half a league onward, All in the valley of Death    Rode the six hundred. “Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns!” he said. Into the valley of Death    Rode the six hundred. II “Forward, the Light Brigade!” Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew    Someone had blundered.    Theirs not to make reply,    Theirs not to reason why,    Theirs but to do and die.    Into the valley of Death    Rode the six hundred. III Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them    Volleyed and thundered; Stormed at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of hell    Rode the six hundred. IV Flashed all their sabres bare, Flashed as they turned in air Sabring the gunners there, Charging an army, while    All the world wondered. Plunged in the battery-smoke Right through the line they broke; Cossack and Russian Reeled from the sabre stroke    Shattered and sundered. Then they rode back, but not    Not the six hundred. V Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon behind them    Volleyed and thundered; Stormed at with shot and shell, While horse and hero fell. They that had fought so well Came through the jaws of Death, Back from the mouth of hell, All that was left of them,    Left of six hundred. VI When can their glory fade? O the wild charge they made!    All the world wondered. Honour the charge they made! Honour the Light Brigade,    Noble six hundred!

[Jonathan]

Aha! No trains on Sunday. The Charge of the Light Brigade. I didn't realize the significance of 'The War' chapter. We're told that the new bishop, Dr Proudie was well connected with high government figures. Was the Crimean War meant to distract the parishioners of Barchester who were unhappy with the changes which came with the new bishop?

I thought it was just Mr Slope's doing. Purposely dividing the parish with his controversial style, before taking over from Archdeacon Grantly. And doesn't the archdeacon get mad!

The author is soon exclaiming: 'And now, had I the pen of a mighty poet, would I sing in epic verse the noble wrath of the archdeacon.'

How generous of Tennyson to rise to the occasion, and help him out.

I love Mr Harding.  When under stress he listens for the heavenly harmonies in his head.

[bellamarie]

I’m pretty sure the War chapter was about what was taking place in Barchester, between Mr. Slope and the clergy, along with who would divide and conquer, and who would follow whom.  Or have I got my “who and whom” incorrectly?  Never could get it straight. 

Tennyson and the Crimean war....as a distraction.  Now that’s a thought.

I too, love Mr. Harding. 

A paragraph that captured me was:

On this occasion the new bishop took his seat for the first time in
the throne alloted to him. New scarlet cushions and drapery had been
prepared, with new gilt binding and new fringe. The old carved oak-
wood of the throne, ascending with its numerous grotesque pinnacles
half-way up to the roof of the choir, had been washed, and dusted,
and rubbed, and it all looked very smart. Ah! how often sitting
there, in happy early days, on those lowly benches in front of the
altar, have I whiled away the tedium of a sermon in considering how
best I might thread my way up amidst those wooden towers and climb
safely to the topmost pinnacle!

Unless I am mistaken, is the narrator the one reminiscing of his days thinking of climbing those towers?  I can imagine a child sitting there lost in adventurous thought os doing just that. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Dr. Harding - the kind of integrity we wish that all our contacts possessed - but then there would be no stories would there - the story is about some sort of conflict that is worked out.

Jonathan thanks for the reminder, like most good artists, they 'borrow' 'steal' 'copy' from one another just as they pick up what they observe around them and your showing us Tennyson as a thrill of recognition pulls the curtain back on the magic of Trollop. Not only is this story bits of borrowed news but we have some borrowed sentence structure.

Yes, Bellamarie War in Barchester however, with influences from how the Crimean war was both reported and fought - seems to me this was the war where Florence Nightingale had her first influence. Hmm should we be looking for characteristics of Florence Nightingale in some of our characters? Never imagined this war also influencing writers other than Tennyson.

This first group of chapters introduces to us just about all the main characters - almost like a children's piano recital - here is Jenny Lynn and she will play the Happy Farmer and here is Cody, he will play March of the Wooden Soldiers - as each character's vignette is told we learn what rattles their cages - the biggest cage rattler is between the Traditional High Church of England and the changes that represented the the views of the Liberal, Low Church  - How Trollop pricks both viewpoints will be fun and games for us as we read.

His story seems to be layering one event on top of the next and I am anxious to see what he does with this controversy. Monday we start our next group of chapters.

I must say, I do not know about any of you but it is a shock to my system to hear how the appointment of a Bishop is dependent upon the politics of the day and which party or group holds public office and therefore, will influences the appointment of a Bishop - Never really saw how integral the connection between Church and Government - not sure it really matters except how the funding works. To the clergy, regardless what religious group there is always a governing body who appoints leadership and directs the church emphases and so, the difference is if it is Rome or more local and your own Government - makes what is going on now in Germany an interesting political series of events to watch.     

[PatH]

There is, perhaps, no greater hardship at present inflicted on mankind in civilized and free countries than the necessity of listening to sermons.

WAR
And the first shot is fired by Slope in his sermon.  He addresses all the doctrinal details held dear by the old guard, refuting and denying them, in a cleverly crafted speech which shows he means to win, taking no prisoners, giving no quarter, and shows them what a clever and formidable opponent he is.

[bellamarie]

Yes, PatH.,  I agree, Slope has indeed declared war on the comfortable old timers of the church, better known as the lower church.  After seeming to want to get rid of Mr.  Harding as precentor, making his remarks about music, he then visits Eleanor and uses all his charm to make it seem he meant nothing at all by it.  He is a sneaky, clever one for sure.  I'll be keeping my eye on him.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat I guess all war is someone shooting a shot across the bow so to speak - Amazing to me how in control Archdeacan Grantly holds in his rampage - Evidently this entire uproar, where not specific to a certain clergymen was really happening with some of these religious "wars" making the news - I guess it is still going on, not only within the Christian community but among widely different religious groups. It appears even today, for many, their behavior is because of their religious affiliation far more than their national law - although, now that I see how entwined the Anglican church is to the Government it's the same isn't it - the only difference is for Muslims the religious laws are the laws of the land and so too among the Jews in Israel - difficult to wrap my head around that but reading Barchester Chronicles is a perfect non-preachy or threatening way to explain how it works. Although the English way gives equality to the laws of the land that affects behavior.

Yes, Bellamarie, Slope is one to watch isn't he - also, I think to watch is Madeline Neroni and oh, I forgot his name but her brother, the son of the absentee Reverend who have returned from Italy. The son is what my grandmother would call a 'wisenheimer' who knows just how to get what he wants from his father and Madame Neroni sure knows how to make a statement - talk about a major manipulator - she has them all covered.

Just read in the notes - and yes, I felt the difference as I was reading - chapter 9 seems a bit more hefty then the preceding 8 and as it should be - seems Trollop wrote the first 8 chapters and set the book aside for at least 6 months and then picked up with a new direction starting with chapter 9 that introduces to us the next group of characters that we need to know about. 

[Jonathan]

I don't know what to say. I don't think I've ever encountered such a curious, overwhelming, storytelling style. It may take me a little time keeping up with all of you. The new bishop and his chief of staff, the Rev Slope, down from London, are upsetting a lot of the folk in Barchester. Not to mention the scandalous Stanhope family who have spent ten years in Itlay, being spoiled by the easy life.

Archdeacon Grantly actually blows his stack from anger. Will we be counting bodies before this is over?

[bellamarie]

Barb, what an interesting bit of information, about Trollope setting the book aside after chapter 8, and picking up his writing six months later.  As a novice writer myself, I can assure you that when you begin writing with certain thoughts and ideas, and stop and go back to it at a later date, your mindset is no longer in that exact same place as it was when you first began the process of writing your story.  I can very easily see how chapter 9 could take a bit of a turn. 

Yes!  It was Madame Neroni who I was trying to think of when I mentioned earlier about the lady crippled, who seems to be meddling into everyone's affairs.  She sure does manage to stay abreast of everything in her settee.  I love how in the movie version, each person that comes into her room she tells them to pull their chair a little closer, so she can see them.  Why do I get the feeling her reason is so she can exert better control over their conversation?  It made me think of the saying, "Says the spider to the fly."  She actually seems to enjoy messing around, and messing up people's lives.

Barb, I think as far back as the beginning of time we have had a "war" going on where the church and state/government are concerned.  Gosh when I think back to reading the Metamorphosis, learning how they fought for positions as far back as mythological times, then you have the "wars" of the present, which really are no different than any other times, just different areas, leaders, and technology.  But in actuality, does it not all come down to the same sinful reason..... power!  I mean didn't Lucifer think he could have power over Adam and Eve, and even God himself, by tempting them to eat of the forbidden tree?  Yes, reading Barchester, and even The Warden, we see....... pompous people positioning for powerful positions. 

Jonathan,  You made me laugh out loud reading....  "Will we be counting bodies before this is over?"

Indeed I think we shall!   

I'm off to begin the next set of chapters on this windy, gloomy Sunday.

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Yep, Jonathan the ingredients for the stew are laid out before us. I am anxious to see how this thing cooks - 

Bellamarie yes, war and more war - small skirmishes and major breaks - in fact probably lots of skirmishes we never hear about between members of the clergy in the same 'house', 'monastery' - just as there are among families. Now if we could have an author today with the wit and writing ability of Trollop I would feel less down in the tooth. I am so tired of all the upheaval - but that is another issue - I wonder if the folks living during the mid nineteenth century put up with the constant daily drumbeat of wrangling, being reminded of the awfulness of the 'other' - I guess for some it was constant because it affected them personally.

Well let's see how Trollop cooks the stew - we have the characters pretty well defined - ha just thought - we have a baby, we have a devoted mother, we have a kind and gentle, godlike father of the mother, we have the oily manipulator, we have the outrage to how spiritual life was and therefore should be practiced, (Moses maybe? or John the Baptist or hm maybe actually the pharisees). We have the new Bishop subjected by his fear of his wife. (Pontius Pilate, puppet to Rome) Hmm will this be modern twist on the affect that Madame Neroni (Mary Magdalene) has on events?  Who will become the Joseph to mother and babe? Will good will and good works become secondary to politics for power, and how will the desire for being acknowledged as having done a good job with increases in income affect the story? How much will typical British class structure hint at winners and losers?

Stew does take a little salt along with all the ingredients to bring out the taste of each - and so we shall see how Trollop sprinkles in the salt.   

[Jonathan]

I really wonder where the author is taking us. It's about clergymen but is it about religion? Or is it about dividing the spoils of a very rich institution? And the scandals which follow. I liked Karen's comparison.  Just as Gaskell wrote about the women of Cranford, Trollope writes about the Church people in Barchester. I don't expect anyone to murder another, but I'm not surprised to see them spoiling each other's parties, as Madeline does to Mrs Proudie. I see a strong feminist theme in the plot, but that was already a strong current in Victorian times'

'We have a baby!' That's a wonderful line, Barb. Of course, that means hope for the future. What a shock to read, that the boy has no life of his own. No future. Will the author still feel that way six months from now?

I rather enjoy Trollope's storytelling. I'm committed.  I acquired three more of his books over the weekend. As well as a biography of his mother. She also wrote a ton of books. Her husband was a failure at eveything he tried. The law. Farming. And spent  most of his life working on an encyclopedia of Church of England titles and terminology. Perhaps that explains the son's interest.

Happy reading. There's a happy scene in The Warden, in which the Archdeacon is seen running the diocese, but the wife, Eleanor's sister, running him. Many meaningful scenes in this story.

[BarbStAubrey]

You too Jonathan - I am entranced if for no other reason than the dialogue reminds me of my mother.  She loved words and quotes - nearly everything we shared or asked, her first comeback was a line from a book, play, movie, singing the line of a song, or the title of a book, play, movie, etc. that directly related and she often had this, what I thought was magical, way of expressing herself - never when there were serious problems or she was sad but she was basically a cheerful person and talked in the meter, using the same elaborate language as I am reading in this book - I'm loving it.. I wish I could call and chat with her and find out if she ever did read Trollop and what prompted her to use so many quotes and songs in her conversation? Mom would probably say, it was fun. We're talking pre-TV here when folks made their own fun.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers

Second Week, October 16 - October 22 Discussing, Chapter I0 through Chapter 19 Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.  Trollop's characters, who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, susceptible to corruption and  hypocrisy, introduced with detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, in the countryside of Trollop's Britain. "— Mrs. Proudie had no idea of being less thought of than the chaplain... when unfortunately the castor of the sofa caught itself in her lace train, – “Gathers were heard to go, stitches to crack, plaits to fly open, flounces were seen to fall, and breadths to expose themselves, a long ruin of rent lace disfigured the carpet, and still clung to the vile wheel on which the sofa moved.” As Juno may have looked at Paris on Mount Ida, so did Mrs. Proudie look on Ethelbert Stanhope when he pushed the leg of the sofa into her lace train"

A few questions to help pull us in ---

1] During Mrs. Proudie's party which characters matched these signs of inner anger?
          a) A desire to be alone
          b) A desire to flee
          c) Agreeing for the sake of it
          e) Worry that others will feel let down
          f)  Passive-aggressive comments

2] Which Characters during the party matched any of these signs of suppressed defeat?
          a) Using anger to feed strength
          b) False Bravado
          c) Trying to maintain eye contact
          d) Laying the blame on others

3] Over what moral values does Reverend Harding's heart feel loss and hopelessness?

4] Imagine a scene in which Archdeacon Grantly is confronted with the ordination of women? How would he discuss this with Eleanore Bold and then how would he discuss it with his wife, Susan. 

5] How does Homer's tale of The Frogs and The Mice relate or shadow Trollop's story?
 
6] How does the mention of the uproariously funny play The Rivels (1775) still produced today, staring the character Bob Acres remind us of the 'war' between the ever retreating Bishop Proudie and his wife?

7] How would Mrs. Proudie's talk to/at Slope if she suspected his attention/interest at the party was with Mrs. Eleanore Bold rather than the Signora Neroni?

The schedule for our discussion     Oct. 8 - 14 --- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35,  Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs  Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -

Discussion Leader: Barb

[PatH]

Jonathan:

I really wonder where the author is taking us. It's about clergymen but is it about religion? Or is it about dividing the spoils of a very rich institution?

Agreed--it's more about power struggles than religion.  Presumable some of the characters are actually devout, but you don't see much of it.

And the characters are painted in telling detail, but Trollope doesn't seem to have much liking for most of them.

[bellamarie]

Barb,  I think I would have loved your mother, just reading about her responding with quotes, lyrics etc. would have been fun!  I find myself constantly responding with scripture in my years of late. 

For sure we are seeing power struggles.  They are all jockeying around, puffing out their chests and demanding so and so be placed in the empty positions.  Oh dare do not count the females out.  After all, the poor Bishop has his contentious wife to deal with, and seems to not have the stamina to stand his ground with her:

"Bishop, did you ever hear a more sublime, more spirit-moving, more appropriate discourse that that?"  "Well, my love; ha - hum - he!" The bishop did not know what to say.  "I hope, my lord, you don't mean to say you disapprove?"  There was a look about the lady's eye which did not admit of my lord's disapproving at that moment.  He felt that if he intended to disapprove, it must be now or never, but he also felt that it could not be now.  It was not in him to say to the wife of his bosom that Mr. Slope's sermon was ill-timed, impertinent, and vexatious. 

As Barb pointed out in the beginning, this was not going to be about religion, more so I can see it is about the practices.  Should music continue, or will it be as Mrs. Proudie hopes for: 

"Did you ever in your life, bishop, hear anything so like play-acting as the way in which Mr. Harding sings the litany?  I shall beg Mr. Slope to continue a course of sermons on the subject till all that is altered.  We will have at any rate in our cathedral a decent, godly, modest morning service.  There must be no more play-acting here now;"

The bishop knew more about cathedrals and deans and precentors and church services than his wife did, and also more of a bishop's powers.  But he thought it better at present to let the subject drop.

Wise or weak, would you say about the bishop?

[youetb]

 Goodmorning to all and a Happy Monday

Me thinks, I stayed in chapter 9 entirely too long.  Yikes, each and every Stanhope, one worse than the other,"... the family characteristic said to be heartlessness..."   Wondering what Trollope is planning ?  Is this the "Tower" of Barchester madness.  Picture The Stanhope Clan, standing on top of each others shoulders wavering and holding scandalous flags, laughing at the citizens of Barchester . 
Something is afoot ...

[bellamarie]

Oh, then you must move on youtb, because it gets quite hilarious in chapter XI.  I won't give it away because it's too delicious to read first hand, but our dear zany Bertie has brought chaos to Mrs. Proudie's reception!!! 

[BarbStAubrey]

Hahaha Yup, Nancy Chapter 9 was better than the NY Macy's Thanksgiving day parade - a surprise a minute and as colorful with as you say flags waving - still not sure what or who will be Santa at the end of their parade but they sure know how to upstage a story and a party. Our first two chapters this week follow the Stanhope clan with as much hoopla as Chapter 9.

Bellamarie for sure the power struggles - and as Pat alludes, each examined for the minutia that brings only a smile to the reader's faces. And yes, the exchange between the Bishop and his wife - oh oh oh - he just does not want to tackle a women who can give you a look as Juno did to Paris on Mount Ida. A formidable woman for sure is Mrs. Proudie.

I not only loved the slapstick comedy played out describing the rending fabric when her lace train was caught under the wheel of the sofa but his immediate reference was priceless... "So, when a granite battery is raised, excellent to the eyes of warfaring men, is its strength and symmetry admired. It is the work of years. Its neat embrasures, its finished parapets, its casemated stories, show all the skill of modern science. But anon, a small spark is applied to the treacherous fusee, - a cloud of dust arises to the heavens, - and then nothing is to be seen but dirt and dust and ugly fragments." So Bertie applies the treacherous fusee and a cloud of dust settles on him, nearby Reverend Slope and his sister, the Signora but he lite the spark - me oh my... but don't you love it - a comic book would have all three flying in the air along with clouds of dust and red explosive flashes.

[Jonathan]

What a fine tribute to your mother, Barb. She certainly left you with a lot of happy memories.

And what a book. What fun to read. I think we all, like Nancy, thoroughly enjoyed Chapter 9. But then it was gestating for six months. Yes, the Stanhopes were known for their heartlessness. But also, we're told, they were very thoughtful of each other. I like your choice of adjectives, Bellamarie. 'Zany' Bertie. 'What's it like to be a bishop?' he asks Dr Proudie. He's tried everything else. And leave it to him, to see the destruction of Mrs Proudie's dress as raising a battery. How childish? Or sexy? Quiet little Barchester is going to be shaken to its roots.

Mrs Proudie's character had preceded her. I can't think of her as contentious. She seems like a serious Christian lady. I'm surprised by the opinions of the narrator. Would it be better if he stayed out of the story? Or does he think of himself as the salt of the...tale?

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow can you believe - this is a photo from William Browne's Hospital in Stamford Lincolnshire, an almshouse built in 1485 by said Wm Browne, a wealthy wool merchant, for 12 poor men and 2 poor women.

Some sites say it is today a museum and then this site says there are 13 residents living in flats that were updated in 1963.
http://www.stamfordcivicsociety.org.uk/brownes-hospital.html

[BarbStAubrey]

Our Narrator Trollop does not as Jonathan suggests, 'Would it be better if he stayed out of the story?' but instead, Trollop is in our face, writing several times as if he were, no, he is acting like someone brashly looking over the window ledge and not only reporting to us what he sees but giving us his blow by blow opinion based on knowledge we, (he and we, the readers) share that the characters, exchanging their thoughts and struggles for clarity or dominance do not know.

I do not know of any other author who so blatantly enters the storyline as an invisible observer - talk about Gossip as Nancy pointed out early on in our discussion.

I had not yet watched the play but evidently reading the notes from The Warden, Trollop refers to the play, The Rivels (1775) in that story as well. In The Warden his reference is to Captain Jack Absolute. The link is to the article about the play in production including a few colorful photos of moments in the play.

'Youtube' has several links to bits and pieces that are actually better acted but this is a link to the play in its entirety
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8PyT71Q74o[/url]

Here is another production in 3 Youtube videos. I have not watched it all but the 10 minute clips are not adding up so there may be more clips by this poster, Martin Gorst - this series does start with a slooow showing of the playbill - I'd skip it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt7vH1Nn4Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot7ISn-kAIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaV-MCrZw4w

And finally, this youtube version has several links you can find on the side of the page but what is nice is the interview with Rachel Kavanaugh on the motives and stagecraft of Sheridan's 'The Rivals'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKBY54EgNX8

Have fun at the movies tonight  evidently Trollop thought this was an enjoyable play, so much so that he quotes character names to bring alive his characters in his Barchester Chronicles. I can see, especially in the last Youtube when it finally gets to the play, the outrage played out. Sounds much like the outrage that Archdeacon Grantly, acted by the wonderful Nigel Hawthorne, could bluster though in his scenes. 

[bellamarie]

Yes, chapter XI had me in stitches, and Barb, your comic book idea would be just added humor to the already great laughs the words Trollope chose to describe this calamity! 

I'm beginning to see why Tollope chose the name "Proudie" for Mr. & Mrs. Proudie.  It suits her to a "T" she is indeed a very proud person.  I do believe she is trying her best to be helpful, yet she comes over so strong and intrusive, those in the room want to dismiss her, or patronize.  The poor bishop has learned how to tamper her by agreeing, even when he doesn't and then goes about doing what he sees best.

At the end of this book I assure you we will be handing out awards for best actress, actor, supporting actress, supporting actor, screenplay, funniest, and least liked character, along with many other deserving credits.  Hollywood anit got notin on Trollope or Senior learn. Slapstick at it's finest!!!  I can just imagine Trollope sitting at his desk writing this scene and laughing all the way.....

"I'll fly to the looms of the fairies to repair the damage, if you'll only forgive me," said Ethlbert, still on his knees.    

[BarbStAubrey]

Love it Bellamarie - the Bertie quote is wonderful isn't it...

Looks like his sister Charlotte will be his arranger, if she can get Signora Neroni to let some of the light shine on Bertie - although, he does hold his own doesn't he - however, it appear even the Signora takes a nod from Charlotte so we shall see how Eleanore handles the Stanhope onslaught - Will it be gorilla style or D-day or maybe bombs away, although Bertie does not appear to be the bombs away sort. Or maybe that is exactly his style - he sure knew how to bomb away when the mishap presented itself with Mrs. Proudie's train caught under the sofa wheel.

Bottom of page 79, the last sentence fortiter in re,...suaviter in modo.  Translates from Latin, strong in deed...gentle in manner.   

And on page 80, omnium gatherum: Latin for a gather or collection of all sorts of people or things, a miscellaneous group.

Amazing - we see that today in politics - where if you do not address an issue directly there is an assumption made, as with Slope and Harding over if he would or not be the Warden - as my mother would sing her comment - Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby

[bellamarie]

I don't think there was an assumption made here.....Slope was up to no good, and tried desperately to trick Mr. Harding into refusing the position by putting all those conditions along with it, knowing full well Mr. Harding was neither qualified, nor able bodied, due to age and inexperience to handle all those expectations.  When Mr. Slope learned Eleanor was a wealthy widow, and it could mean he would marry her, he then tried to undo everything, and present it in an entirely different light.  To quote our famous poet/novelist Sir Walter Scott:

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!

Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.

Barb, perfect lyrics for this situation.  The only thing is.... everyone thinks Eleanor is interested in Slope as a suitor, except for Eleanor herself.

[Mkaren557]

This High Church-Low Church division in Barchester is so typical of any institution and in society as a whole.  First you have the group that wants to change/modernize/reform, then there are those who want things to stay the same, there are always those who want to go back to a time in the past, and there are those who don't care about any of that.  They just want to live their lives and support themselves.  In Barchester, Archbishop Grantly and his wife are leading the forces who want to keep things as they are.  They are bringing Mr. Arabin as reinforcement for their cause because he gives excellent sermons.  Mrd. Bold and Mr. Harding support the High Churchers, but mostly want Mr. Harding reinstated at St. Hirams with his salary and his house.  Calling for reform are the Evangelicals who are seeking to strip of all trappings os Roman Catholicism and be more Protestant.  Bishop and Mrs Proudie and Mr Slope are reformers and they seem to have the power as the Bishop heads the Church in Barchester. The Stanhopes and the Quiverfuls just want to make a living or maintain a lifestyle and at this may go either way.  And then there are those who just want to live their lives and don't care. 
     My experience is that when I get involved in the administration and the decision-making in the Church, I tend to lose sight of the reason I attend church and pay less and less attention to the spiritual side of religion.  I think Mr. Harding with his music and caring for the old men is the best example of worshipping God so far in the text.If this were real life I wouldn't presume to judge what is in the hearts of the people in the Church, but the all knowing narrator allows me to see into the motivations of the characters. 

[bellamarie]

Oh Karen, our author/narrator is certainly interjecting himself and his feelings upon us.   

My readers will guess from what I have written that I myself do not like Mr. Slope, but I am constrained to admit that he is a man of parts.  He knows how to say a soft word in the proper place; he knows how to adapt his flattery to the ears of his hearers; he knows the wiles of the serpent, and he uses them. 

In reading all the jockeying around for positions, the attitudes of the High vs Low church, and the members who agree or disagree with the new changes coming, and the resistance to keep things the same, I clearly can see it applies to the same issues we continue to face even in today's government and church.  Our parish has gone through four pastors in the past four years.  Of course our longtime Fr. Auth was forced into retirement (with the drinking problem he had it's no wonder), so then we were assigned Fr. Chris, who was polish and had broken English, you had to pay very close attention in order to understand his homily.  He was the Mr. Slope of our church, ready and willing to make some big changes, and it riled up so many who were not on board, that they left the church and went to a nearby one.  His health could not take all the resistance, and so he was assigned to a smaller church in a more remote town.  Next, Fr. Ring a retired priest was to come to our parish until they would assign a new permanent pastor.  Finally, Fr. Miller is here and seems to be a perfect fit. He is young enough to be very involved in the church activities, as well as the school and CCD classes.  He is very old traditional, with a modern approach.  When I first went up to introduce myself to him I said, "Welcome to Regina Coeli Fr. Miller, how long do you plan on staying?"  He laughed and replied, "Yes, I have heard you have had a few priests of late.  I am here to stay."  I said, "We shall see."  He learned after a year or so to delegate to the those who have the knowledge and title of groups, and step back and oversee, rather than jump in with both feet and try to take charge of every area and committee. 

Okay, off to finish up the last chapter for this week before my precious Zak & Zoey arrive to spend the night with us, since they have teacher in service, which means no school today or tomorrow.  Zak has already face timed me, and texted, letting me know to not be late in picking them up, and what fun things he has planned for us to do.  Oh the joys of grandchildren!

p.s.  I spoke to soon giving the bishop too much credit, after reading the last few chapters, he is indeed a coward
Chapter XVII  Who Shall Be Cock of the Walk?

The upshot of his thought was this, that there certainly was not room in the diocese for the energies of both himself and Mrs. Proudie and that it behove him quickly to ascertain whether his energies or hers were to prevail. 

Chapter XVIII  The Widow's Persecution

"Ill!" said the archdeacon to himself as he flung himself into his brougham.  "The man is absolutely a coward.  He is afraid to see me.  Ill, indeed!" 

[BarbStAubrey]

Right on Karen - the factions that fracture any good are all jockeying for power with the real intent wrapped up in mild and kind Reverent Harding - always the way isn't it - have not looked into Trollop's other series but I understand he does have a series with the conflicts of power related to the political scene at the time - as Bellamarie shares it is a theme regardless the historical time or regardless the intent of the origination of the group. 

What gets me is how to further a side, often a dip into history without all the facts or the values held at the time, is used to support a current viewpoint - I guess all we can do, as long as we as individuals are not feeling gross hardship, is look at the funny side - its when these opposing viewpoints lead to combat and war that it really is painful. I remember as a school girl learning that we are all aggressive - if we were not we would not eat and we would die because regardless animal or vegetable we are cooking and consuming something we had to kill and pulling something up by the root or taking it from a tree is an aggressive act.  Which says to me all we can hope for is to control our aggression and modify using them to get others to think as we think.

Recently saw what I thought was such a great illustration - all I can do is describe - I've no photo which said so much with one glance - someone standing in front of a large, cutout from black cardboard and laying on the floor, the number 9 and another comes from the opposite side of the room and they see a number 6. I thought that was packed chuck full of meaning.

Bellamarie I do not know about you but in chapter 17, I was amused to read Trollop saying Mrs. Proudie was in her boudoir - not my picture but soon rectified when she is found sitting with her account books - sounding more like her office then her boudoir.  This is where the bishop's courage is likened to that of Bob Acres in the play, The Rivels.

Appears, the Bishop and Reverend Harding have in common their mild manner or is it lack of courage - certainly both are drowned and sunk by those whose sails are full and their ship of state is running with all nature's force at and over you.

[BarbStAubrey]

Amazing when you think about it that Eleanore's chose of a marriage partner could be construed as an act of war.  Looks like a carbon copy of the political church - feelings, love and good works have nothing to do with whom you associate or what is important - only the protocol of a set of beliefs and the rules the hierarchy adopt to support that set of beliefs. Patriarchy in all its glory...

And then Mr Harding makes his choice, not on what is the best use of his talents or his inner wishes but again it is supporting a belief or value system that is practiced in a certain way and therefore, siding with those with whom you agree. Thinking about it - it does get complicated because without the histrionics that Trollop uses in his story but rather in real life it is sure easier and more satisfying to live and work among folks who share your belief or value system - it appears reading and realizing from this story, it is the systems of belief we believe are worth fighting for - and we are still at it...

Which by the way "The sly Tartufe!" is referring to Moliere's comedy where Tartuffe is a religious hypocrite.  Great French movie using modern characterizations of the Moliere's Misanthrope that reminds me of Trollop -  Bicycling With Moliere 2014 wonderfully acted - it is on Amazon and with translation below it is a delight to see.  Where Jonathan in gobbling up all the Trollop he can find, after seeing the movie I was gobbling up all the translated Moliere I could find.

Rainy here today and a cold front expected on Sunday so a good weekend for reading...

[Jonathan]

Right on, Barb. I'm gobbling up all the Trollope I can find. I don't know when I'll get it all read. And I was just as eager about Moliere many years ago after reading a very enjoyable bio about him. (Moliere: The Comic Mask, by D. B. Wyndam Lewis) I got lucky. I found a fine 3-volume set of all his plays.

Yes, I caught that: "I see it all," said the archdeacon, "The sly tartuffe! He thinks to buy the daughter by providing for the father." Mr Slope is after Eleanor's thousand a year by getting Mr Harding's wardenship back for him.

What a disagreeable fellow, this Mr Slope. That's partly the author's own doing. He can't stand Mr. Slope. But he needs a villain, and has the audacity to end the chapter with the words: "Mr Slope is certainly becoming of some importance in Barchester."

But the author is fascinated by the Stanhopes, who have been living in Italy for the past 12 years. About them he has Mr Harding saying: " (They're very friendly) They certainly do look more like foreigners than English people, but I dare say they are none the worse for that."

I find that hard to believe. The English don't lose their identity that quickly, if at all. What an entertaining author. But untrustworthy.

Mr Slope was a fine low church London preacher, who caught Mrs Proudie's ear. She liked his sermons and soon had him appointed Dr Proudie's chaplain. And, of course, he never looked back. I suspect he meets his Waterloo in Barchester.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks for the tip Jonathan I have not heard of, Moliere: The Comic Mask, need to find it. And agree, the Stanhopes are an interesting lot - Bertie is suppose to be a cad and yet, I like him so far - far more than Slope. Then, Reverend Harding is so humble I do not think I would like him as a friend and dear Eleanore is so unaware and as innocent as her baby - a great assortment of characters - reminds me of Alice in Wonderland - never know who is going to pop in or what is going to happen next - Dr. Grantly could be the Queen shouting, 'Off with their heads.'

[BarbStAubrey]

I was startled reading the time at night of the walk around the close - and then to be going home at 1:00 in the morning - wow - not what I ever imagined during Victorian Britain.

[BarbStAubrey]

Evidently the Duke of Cambridge was used by Prince George, grandson of King George III - the Duke was commander and chief of the Army in 1856 - the Duke of Cambridge is currently used by Prince William.

The title goes back to the 17th century when evidently several babies and young children who died were the first to have the title - The first to use the title and later became king was George II in 1727 - reading up on the title it is passed through the father's family and involves land and other rights. 

On page 144 the human face divine is from Milton's Paradise Lost

And this is telling isn't it - Winchester... New Collage - Winchester is the oldest English public school, (to us that means private school) founded in 1382 - can you just imagine attending classes in an institution established over a hundred years before Columbus sailed - Eleanore of Aragon dies in 1382 - amazing -

At the same time as Winchester is established, so too is New College, Oxford - these are the schools attended by Trollop's father and where his father hoped his son would also attend however, after 3 years at Winchester Trollop returns to Harrow as a day boy. 

Harrow or not, versus Winchester, this is a very educated man as compared to Dickens’s, whose education began at William Giles’s School, Chatham.  His private school attendance ended when his father was sent to jail after amassing debt.  Dickens attended Wellington House Academy in London for four years.  He left school aged 15 and began working as a clerk in a solicitor’s office -

Dickens writes a compelling story but without the many references to literature, Greek Mythology or sprinkles of French that Trollop includes in his stories - Trollop's stories have wit where as Dickens' stories have far more drama.