Author Topic: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!  (Read 14103 times)

PatH

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Shadow of the Silk Road

Come on along with us - Monday, March 11
We're joining Colin Thubron on his 7,000 mile journey along the greatest land route on earth. Out of the heart of China into the mountains of Central Asia, across northern Afghanistan and the plains of Iran and into Kurdish Turkey.

   Reading Schedule
March 11 - 17..... Pages 1 - 95
March 19 - 24..... Pages 96 - 150
March 25 - 31..... Page 154 - 218
April 1 - 7............ Page 219 - 284
April 8 - 14.......... Page 284 - 344

Topics to Note and Discuss
1. SARS virus and impact on the author’s journey
2. Inventions spread East and West
3. Behaviors and Values of the Chinese people
4. Characters met along the way
5. Caves and Objects at Dunhuang
6. Religions and Places of Worship found along the way
7. The various means of Transportation
8. Add any additional 'Legends and Myths' of Ruins, Monuments, Tribes and Historical Individuals

Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey

PatH

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Frybabe, about the author's mood: he seems upbeat when just interacting with people, and apprehensive when thinking about the system.

One bit that particularly struck me on p 27, Hu Ji tells a story from the Tang dynasty, then says "You know, in China we have no tradition of respect for human life. It's simply not in our past......That is our problem: inhumanity."

A Chinese friend of mine said something similar.  We were talking about some political situation in China, probably Tienanmen Square, and he said that in guessing what the government would do, one should never forget how cheap life is held in China.  I believe this is true on an institutional level, but not on a personal level, and Thubron says much the same thing.

Frybabe

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That IS depressing in all kinds of ways. It doesn't help that I just read of a truly disgusting atrocity (to my modern mind) which involved not punishing adults (civilian towns overrun during a war raid) but by feeding their children through a threshing machine. And this from Emperor Nicephores of the supposedly Christian Byzantine Empire, not the "barbarians". Of course, the outcome of such raids is often that every living thing, including livestock, dies. The Bulgars, especially, liked to move and resettle entire communities of people to lands far from their homes. I think that was in part to try and break up local alliances.  Now I have to look up what threshing machines looked like back in the early 800s. The only thing I can think of is hand winnowing.

Okay, I forgot the horse or oxen trampling trough the grain to separate the grain from the stem. So what does this mean? That they threw the toddlers under the hooves of the animals?

BarbStAubrey

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Thanks Pat for uploading the heading - I missed it last night with those last few posts...

Interesting yes, how cheaply held were humans - I remember the last Olympics held in China and their message was they were so many people that people in China do what machines do elsewhere - I've always been taken back when I read how mostly priests but those in Ireland who were killed when Britain struck anyone who was Catholic and even in Britain this quartering of people that for awhile was done before they were dead. Sheesh - And these atrocities taking place where they did appear to value life - or at least life among a those one step above peasants.

I worked with a Chinese couple a couple of years ago who were moving from Philly and while cleaning out to make the move she finds the death certificate for her oldest child that she was told was born dead. A girl - she checks into it - the child lived for 3 days and she even finds the grave secreted from her for 18 years but known by her husband and his mother - and this is the 21st century.

A threshing machine from the 800s - hmm - do you think frybabe, the author took 'poetic' license to get across his point?  I can imagine though children being thrown in with animals or in rivers or down wells or just cut in two which as gruesome as it sounds cutting up lots of children take time and is a bit more emotional for those doing the slaying so better the animals do it.

Isn't there some South American group that each year there is a man chosen who knows he has one year to live and then there is a secret ceremony in the mountains on a certain day at exactly sunrise and he is killed as an offering to the Gods and then the mass of people sing to the sun - remember seeing a PBS show and the guy filming was not allows to witness and they did everything to keep him away. Do you think there is a bit of Jeffrey Dahmer in all of us - I just cannot imagine but it seems that people enacting the unthinkable still happens. Just a dozen years ago hearing the antics of the CIA makes me question how to define humanity. Then there is the whole issue of sexual warfare on girls - it just goes on and on doesn't it.

Remember just recently learning how all these eunuchs were simply stuck in sand after castration and more died than lived - nearly all history in the East from Turkey to Japan talks about eunuchs in court or in the army or as guards - over just one century there were thousands of eunuchs so how many boys and young men lost their lives over several centuries.  While reading I've chosen for the most part to pass over quickly the parts that do not make me feel good - I decided not to dwell on that dark because I can so quickly go into the dark side of life and then I'm a couple of weeks done for - now the big happenings like war or something very removed I can deal with but there are many that just hit me the wrong way and I decided a few years ago to just keep going.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Not sure where y'all are reading - tomorrow we start the next section that is a much shorter read - I just read the first two pages of the next read and realized how much easier and quicker - I think the rhythm of his writing has set in so that it does not feel as jerky. 

If y'all need another day or so I think we can work it out and still read this weeks 54 pages - this first week we bulldozed into Colin's travels through eastern China, meeting many people with different stories and background history although, all Chinese in nature. The trip read was 97 pages which gave us a good indoctrination into what Colin and China is about - astonishing to me is when I looked up, using the Google Map, the trip is only half way into China and this next section, although the southern route is still on the map north of Tibet.  Now I'm wondering does he turn south into Tibet or continue on into the gigantic province of Xinjiang and then on to Central Asia - the area of the world I'm most anxious to read about.

Until reading this I forgot all about SAARs - need to look it up - I remember it being a big scare but forgot how the disease manifested itself and what damage it did to those who contracted the disease. The health patrol keeps popping up even in the first page of this next section.

OK happy reading - sun may be out here but it is still cold. I'm going nowhere today... in fact, it is still a hot chocolate day for me... I need 70s to feel free of reading blankets or in-house heavy sweatshirts.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Take a look at this page, click on #7 - Southern Silk Road. I was especially interested in the asbestos mine area. http://ken-in-china.blogspot.com/ Oh, and  Ken mentions the book. He went through there a year after Thurbin did. You can see how rugged the terrain is.

BarbStAubrey

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wow frybabe I hit the link on top that said Classic and the photos - wow and wow again - wonderful to really get a sense of what it is like - great link thanks for sharing - frybabe who is Ken - someone you know or a lucky find crawling through the internet?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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I just found it while browsing a search on the Yellow Emperor. I don't know who Ken is, but my best guess, since he was a student at Yunnan Normal University in Kunming, is he was there to further his studies in the Chinese language and culture. The university has a few programs open to international students. He has a few photos of himself down the page. Look for Feb 20-Me Doing Stuff. He doesn't give a bio.

PatH

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Frybabe and Barb, the twin queens of finding good stuff on the Internet.

Frybabe

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I've made a discovery while reading the book about the first Bulgarian Empire, I discovered that the Romans, and much of the Near East knew about asbestos, including the lung disease that plagued asbestos miners. The Romans, used asbestos for a ton of  things, including armor padding/lining, tablecloths and napkins, and hair nets. Common advise at the time was not to buy slaves who had worked the asbestos mines because they didn't live long.

BarbStAubrey

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Frybabe will get caught up tonight - been down for 3 days now - or rather living in the bathroom for 3 days and we finally figured it was the new meds I was taking for, of all things to cause a problem it is meds for my eyes. The doctor has seen more problems with meds in the past 2 years and he is convinced because so much of it is put into pill form in China and they do not have the control. Turns out much of packaged meds, prescription or otherwise are made in small home labs, like piece work and sent to the factory that is responsible - anyhow stopped taking the meds yesterday and feeling some better today so I can back to living.  I'll be back tonight.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Barb, that is not encouraging news about the med being made in China and the way they do it.

PatH

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It's very discouraging.  Glad you're getting better, Barb.

Frybabe

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I am back on the Silk Road and parked at Khotan at the moment. While looking up more information about Khotan, I immediately discovered Aurel Stein.  A man of many talents, Stein is described as an archaeologist, ethnographer, geographer, linguist, and a professor. He wrote two books specifically on Khotan: The Sand-Buried Ruins of Khotan (1904) and Ancient Khotan: Detailed Report of Archaeological Explorations in Chinese Turkestan 2 volumes. (1907).  He was an "active-player" in The Great Game, according to Wikipedia, though I don't remember his name mentioned in the books I read on the subject. He certainly would have been ideal and was in India as early as 1887, and between 1900 and 1930 made four expeditions into Central Asia. I remember Kashgar being mentioned in some of the books I read, but not Khotan. Stein died in Kabul at the age of 80.



 

BarbStAubrey

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I knew nothing about this 'pit' of 1500 mummies did you Frybabe? At first when I was reading I was not sure what he was talking about and thought they were open air skeletons or bodies that because of sand and dry conditions still showed them as full bodies - took some research starting with the town mentioned before I could land on what these mummies are all about -

This is the Oldest mummy from 1800 BC - goodness the oldest Egyptian mummy is from 3000 BC and so this technique of burying the dead must have spread  - still older are the Chinchorro mummies from South America dated around 7020 BC


The oldest Tarim mummy found along the southern edge of the Tarim Basin, in Khotan, Niya, and Cherchen

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Found the book on Amazon frybabe - looks like you can get a kindle copy for only $1.99
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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No kindle copy for  Ancient Khotan: Detailed Report of Archaeological Explorations in Chinese Turkestan 2 volumes. Looks like the least expensive is a paperback for $2.69 plus delivery.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Found a photo of the baby mummy he speaks about on page 112

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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tamarisk tree

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Back to the mummies - 'a' photo must be what he was describing with the pilings or I think he called them wooden props

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Barb, I only heard about one family of tartan wearing, red-haired mummies. I had no idea that there was such a fair sized population living today.

BarbStAubrey

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Evidently from archeologists and now DNA for just over 100 of the mummies they have determined these were people from eastern Eurasia and far western Asia that probably came down - Oh I forgot the names of the rivers but they ran from the north near Russia and Finland south near this area. And then they were saying something about the Tartans that were not so much Chinese but Eurasian - there is a book about the Steppes being the cradle of civilization for the west - Tempted but it is not a cheapie - need to see if the library has anything.

Found the author of your book on Bulgaria frybabe, and he wrote another interesting book on the history of the first and another on the second Crusade - the book you have does not appear to be available to buy - I did find a freebee Kindle copy of the history of Bulgaria by William Miller that I downloaded. Problem my eyes are getting too big for my reading curiosity, so I do not know when I will get to it.

As to our introduction to this far eastern part of what is now China - I'm thinking that most students or ancient history were either not knowledgeable of this part of the world or they were not getting their story included in the annuals of history  - I found a youtube videos of a book I recently ordered because I was amazed to learn that history included a collapse of Civilization in 1177BC - what I'm noticing as I get into this, the definition of Civilization only included the area of Northern Africa, Southern Europe and the Middle East - there is no inclusion of India or China much less this area of the Steppes.  There is mention of Afghanistan and so why not China.

Here is one of the youtube talks on the Collapse of Civilization 1177 BC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyry8mgXiTk

I wonder if a portion of these mummies in Tarim died because of starvation during this time of drought in 1177 BC. although the area seems pretty arid, so what do animals eat in these deserts - we hear from the young man he met in the cordoned off area for SARS isolation that it only rains twice a year. I guess during a drought there may be no rain - I know that one - we had a 3 to 4 year drought here in Texas that started about 6 years ago. Now we have so much rain we do not know to handle it. However, during the second year of the drought family in South Texas got rid of all their cattle. The Tarim area sounds like it is 95% sheep and so was this drought world wide and if so, what did the sheep eat, did the sheep die and was there starvation - next question what were all the invasions from various tribes in this area - hmm maybe I will end up reading the book about the history of the horse and wheel from the Steppes shaped our world.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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I was looking at Dr. Cline's book a while ago, and even had it on my Audible wishlist, but didn't buy it yet.

I found this 200 page paper on Proto-Bulgarians which includes material from Chinese sources beginning on page 60. I went looking because I wanted to find out if the Uighur are the same group mentioned by various spellings in Runciman's book. These were sometimes allies, sometimes enemies. The Bulgarians actually controlled a large area for a while, including Armenia. Other sources the author of the paper uses include Armenia, and Russia. He is a great pains to parse out the various spellings of names for the same groups, trying to decipher their movements and influence across Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Lots of references included at the end of each section.
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/27/items/wojnikov_mail_PRBG/PRBG.pdf 



BarbStAubrey

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Goodness in just the first few pages there is so many opinions it is difficult to follow - I'm thinking it is probably DNA that is going to straighten out where the Bulgarians originated - I'm also picking up the history is about the area AD and not BC

I bet there is no comprehensive history of Europe, Eurasia, the Mediterranean and Asia that could offer a time line with the movement of these large tribal groups.

I need to find a map of the two connected continents to figure out where national boundaries are located and what butts up against what. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Interesting that the first chroniclers of events in the early ADs can't even agree on names, spellings and geographical localities of various events. No one in the area could read or write except for a very, very few Greeks and Romans. Then you have to take into account the lies and exaggerations from self aggrandizement and propaganda.   What a mess to sort through.  Regarding maps, I'd like one that lightly shows the outline of current countries overlayed by the various movements of the various tribes, kind of like a flip board of transparencies, so you can see the ebb and flow over time. Something you could stop and take a closer look at or flip back and forth.

I have about 15 pages to read today on this section of our reading before starting on next week's section.

Frybabe

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Can't resist commenting on the online Runciman. The presenter(s) of the online version have included their own preface and highlights which essentially comment on what Runciman got right and what he got wrong according to today's ressearch. He does not think highly, apparently, of the Russians renaming early Bulgars as Proto-Bulgars among a few other renamings. The Preface makes clear that rather recently many Bulgarians all of a sudden found themselves renamed Turkic-Bulgars which was a or the basis for a bunch of deportations (forced migrations?) to Turkey and beyond. The preface itself is worth reading.


Frybabe

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More investigating, and I find that the Chinese tore down most or all of the Old City and built a new Old City with a University.
http://www.ejinsight.com/20140704-kashgar-university/  I just spied an article by China News about how they are destorying the old and building new to provide a "safer" future. I didn't go back to read it. I am sure their slant is quite different from our current reading.

Smithsonian article, dated March 2010: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/demolishing-kashgars-history-7324895/

The New World Order (no matter where or who is behind it) generally extracts a very high price.

BarbStAubrey

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Goodness frybabe the photos went on and on and on - the cylinder shaped structure painted in yellow and off red I thought fabulous - If I were there I could look at that for hours  - and then the line of flowerpots with some sort of tall bush growing in each caught my attention - liked the symmetry and the unexpected flowerpots beneath the trees - and finally, towards the end I wish I knew the name of the string instrument he is playing and what it sounds like - probably using the Asian musical scale that has so many more notes than our major and minor scale with only 8 notes each in various keys.

I too need to finish up this weeks read to be ready for tomorrow's read that again is not the huge number of pages as the first week, which did get us into the rhythm of his writing and the trip.

Thinking of you Pat - forgot the day you were going for surgery but if I am remembering it is right about now - or maybe the end of this past week - praying all goes well... 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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wow China not only demolished homes but resettled into Kashgar 220,000 Uyghurs - they like to put their imprint like branding on everything don't they.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Looking at this destruction of the old city from a distance - it sounds like the dislike for the Han Chinese is blamed for the change -

I see this same exact thing happening here in Austin were those of us who have lived in Austin all our lives or for at least the last 40 or 50 years feel displaced and all our local time honored restaurants are closing because, the new folks are not frequenting them and the property tax has increased beyond the ability to make a profit plus, for some the ageing owners are not up to more change. We blame those from California that have moved in with their culture rather than doing in Rome and the Romans.

Reading this about Kashgar it seems the new housing built elsewhere would create urban sprawl bringing on the headaches for roads, travel and transportation with all that pollution and wasted gas or knock down the older area, just as here the older Black and Mexican American community, where yes, the culture was supportive but, Real Estate values allowed investors to sweep in, knock down and rebuild for less cost than other areas of town. Of course the city council loves it - the property tax dollars collected are 10 times what had been before gentrification. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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did you mean for both links to link to the same article frybabe or did your computer hold onto the first link when you expected it to upload another.

And do not get me started on this new One World Order with what is going on at the Border paid for by those few who want to subvert national identity - Have you read UN Agenda 21 or UN Agenda 2030 that incorporates Agenda 21 - or read the Immigration Pact signed by 154 nations that we are not a part of but might as well be as the weakness in our immigration laws are being exploited - oh oh oh do not get me started... I've had to walk away from a party that really left me after 3 generations of support. OK - this is not the political discussion - 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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It's tomorrow, Barb.  I've been reading the posts, but have had no time or energy to make sense of the reading.

Frybabe

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I'll be thinking of you tomorrow, Pat. I hope it is nothing too serious and you recover quickly.

 "We blame those from California..." Now you sound like my friend in Colorado.


BarbStAubrey

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Looks like someone has to be the fall guy for change ;) in the west it is Californians  ::)  :D
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Be thinking of you Pat - praying all goes well and it is an easy transition with new knees.  Looks like Jane, who does all the uploading for us will be on the road tomorrow on their way, finally, back to Iowa - her husband has completed his chemo but still has 5 weeks of daily radiation that a doctor has been arranged to administer in Iowa. Big step forward and hope your surgery will be a big step forward for you Pat.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Frybabe, I'm getting a new right knee.  Since I already have a metal hip, I know what to expect.  The recovery is the same only more intense.  So it's a serious procedure but not dire.

BarbStAubrey

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Uyghurs, China’s Most Persecuted Ethnicity

"A Turkic ethnicity in China, the Uyghurs have a disputed history. Many Uyghur historians assert that the Uyghurs are the original inhabitants of Xinjiang, with claims of history spanning at least 4,000 years. Among them is Muslim leader Muhemmed Imin Bughra, who wrote in “A History of East Turkestan” that the group, with respect to Turkic aspects, has been around for 9,000 years."

"The World Uyghur Congress, an international organization of exiled Uyghur groups, subscribes to a 4,000-year history in East Turkestan. It claims that contact between Uyghurs — who originally practiced Shamanism — and Muslims took place as early as the 9th century, ahead of the Manchu Invasion in 1759. The Uyghurs, as well as “other people” in East Turkestan, revolted 42 times against Manchu rule, which ended in 1862. While they were expelled two years later, the Manchu returned in 1876, renaming East Turkestan to Xinjiang after eight years of war on Nov. 18, 1884.

On the other hand, Chinese authorities trace the Uyghurs’ origin to the Tiele, a confederation of nine Turkic peoples in northern China that emerged after the disintegration of Xiongnu, a confederation of nomadic peoples that inhabited the eastern Asian Steppe from the 3rd century B.C. to the 1st century A.D. In this version of history, the Uyghurs only became the main socio-political force in Xinjiang when they migrated from Mongolia following the collapse of the Uyghur Khaganate. They replaced the Han Chinese, which allegedly had occupied the region since the Han Dynasty (206 B.C. – 220 A.D.)."
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Yuzhu Peak is the highest in the eastern part of Mount Kunlun


Located on the west side of Mount Kunlun Pass,Yuxu Peak is the sister peak of Yuzhu Peak at an altitude of 5,980m. Yuxu Peak is named after the legend of the Yuxuan fairy maidens in the Kunlun mythology. It is one of the Taoist centers and the main Taoist temple of the Taoist Kunlun School. Yuxu Peak is surrounded by mountains and towering clouds, and covered with snow all the year round. Modern glacier activities are intense. The glaciers cover an area of 80km2. There are more than 30 glaciers which are distributed on the north and south slopes.

Yuxu Peak


Moraine refers to the debris that the glaciers carry and accumulate. They are mainly produced as the ice sheets are eroded during the movement of glaciers. Kunlun Mountain Pass has three major ice ages in the Pleistocene. Wangkun Ice Age, one of the oldest, occurred 500,000-700,000 years ago. This point reveals the porphyritic and monzonitic granite in the formed at the foot of the late Caledonian movement (about 400 million years ago) was dendriticly infiltrated in the metamorphic sandstone, slate of the upper Silurian (about 440 million years ago) The invasion of the veins reveals an unusual pattern, as if a galloping deer were to break through the walls, lifelike and breathtaking.

Kunlun Holy Deer

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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This point reveals the porphyritic and monzonitic granite in the Yanshan period (205-135 million years ago), with strong weathering effect. There is a rock on the top of the mountain standing like an old man standing sideways, dressed in a Taoist gown with a wide sleeve and a belt, with his hair in a bun and standing gently. Lao Tzu seemed to be discussing the law governing all things. It also resembles Master Keung asking the immortals about how to administer the country. Mount Kunlun is holy in Taoism. It is a Taoist image and thus named “Practicing Taoism at Kunlun”. This Pictographic Rock results from the joint action of granite joints and spherical weathering.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe