The Remains of the Day ~ Kazuo Ishiguro ~ Mini Discussion for June 19th

[bellamarie]

I too looked it up out of curiosity, and I think we can agree, Stevens hits the mark on most of these definitions, and yet in the end, questions himself, leaving him with self doubt.

dig·ni·ty
/ˈdiɡnədē/
noun
the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.

a composed or serious manner or style.

synonyms: stateliness, nobleness, nobility, majesty, regalness, regality, royalness, courtliness, augustness, loftiness, exaltedness, lordliness, impressiveness, grandeur, magnificence; More

a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect

synonyms: self-esteem, self-worth, self-respect, pride, morale, decency, modesty, delicacy, feelings, sensibilities, amour proper

https://www.google.com/search?q=dignity+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&oq=dignity&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4453j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But as we see, after Stevens has had this little heart to heart, with this perfect stranger, and has asked himself, "What dignity is there in that?"  The author then ends the book with Stevens deciding this:

It occurs to me, furthermore, that bantering is hardly an unreasonable duty for an employer to expect a professional to perform. I have of course already devoted much time to developing my bantering skills, but it is possible I have never previously approached the task with the commitment I might have done. Perhaps, then, when I return to Darlington Hall tomorrow -Mr Farraday will not himself be back for a further week -I will begin practicing with renewed effort. I should hope, then, that by the time of my employer's return, I shall be in a position to pleasantly surprise him.  

So, are we the reader left with assuming, Stevens has decided to not be so concerned any more about dignity of duty, and try to lighten up a little, with practicing on being better at bantering?  Well, if this is the case, I am going to think there is hope for this idealist, after all! 

[ginny]

Oh I thought the "bantering" section you put in there was pitiful.  It really tore at my heart, I felt so sorry for him, because he simply does NOT understand. Anything. But he keeps trying to serve the best he can. It' s his equivalent of pushing that cart with the mops and serving platters, I  think.

Bellamarie, when you say there is hope for this idealist after all, what would you like to see him doing? How would you like to see him end?

How did he get this way? I'm thinking with Sue I'd like to know but we never will, will we?

We could fill in some scenario but we never will know.

As Sue says:

Where did he learn this – from his father, his mother or other servants?  Was he always like this?  I’m always fascinated by how people become who they become.  Why did he become dignified – it must have fulfilled some need in him that sustained him all of these years.  Did it allow him to remain aloof from the mess that can be life?

I like the idea there that his ideals (or even his "dignity")  could have  allowed him to remain aloof, that's quite interesting.  They would, wouldn't they? He could withdraw from the painful daily life he would have had to another plane. Oh I like that, super observation! One wonders if that works today, for other idealists.

And sometimes it can take very strange paths, and what experience in childhood  might affect one might not affect the other.  I had written in here as an example   the  fact that today  I can't stand to smell like food, whether I have  cooked it or not, but it looks so stupid I took it out. Suffice it to say the reason is lost in time but the determination NOT to smell like food remains, and I mean I really hate it,  so who knows what Stevens encountered growing up that affected him.  Didn't he say somewhere his grandfather was also in service?  To  be the  Butler of a Great House  is a big thing, which he tells us from the beginning.

As he is apparently not a young man when WWII is beginning, an opportunity to go in service in one of the Great Houses I THINK was considered an honor (dignity?), much more so than less elegant professions.

But then as Bellamarie says: It has to be earth shattering for Stevens to be at the end of his best years, to wonder what is next for him, and has he foolishly served an impostor.

I totally agree with the earth shattering horror this must be for Stevens. But once he's acknowledged it, look what he does: he tries to get Miss Kenton back to do a better job, and at the end, as you've said he's taking up bantering... which is PITIFUL but he's still trying.

It kind of reminds me of  Animal Farm and Boxer the horse. All he would say when corrected is "I will try harder." And of course we remember where  THAT got him, so I am interested in how you all think Stevens  WILL end up?


I'm not sure I agree that  Lord Darlington was an imposter?  He was foolhardy, idealistic  and way too trusting.  And Stevens trusted him. So I wonder if Stevens feels perhaps he himself has been made a fool of, too, since so much seems to depend on Lord Darlington's eminence for Stevens's "dignity."

To repeat: As for myself, I cannot even claim that. You see, I trusted. I trusted in his lordship's wisdom. All those years I served him, I trusted I was doing something worthwhile. I can't even say I made my own mistakes. Really -one has to ask oneself -what dignity is there in that?"

So it's as if a veil has been drawn back from what he wished to be seen as, what he thought he was, to reveal the very thing he sought, obtained and enjoyed was a shattered mess.  Is that something that happens today?

This is some  book!!

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

Oh I thought the "bantering" section you put in there was pitiful.  It really tore at my heart, I felt so sorry for him, because he simply does NOT understand. Anything. But he keeps trying to serve the best he can. It' s his equivalent of pushing that cart with the mops and serving platters, I  think.

Bellamarie, when you say there is hope for this idealist after all, what would you like to see him doing? How would you like to see him end?

at the end, as you've said he's taking up bantering... which is PITIFUL but he's still trying.

I guess each person has a different perspective, and for me, I do not see Stevens deciding to lighten up a bit, and try better at bantering pitiful.  I see it as he is finally going to not take life so seriously.  He has been idealistic, and uptight his entire years serving a person who has turned out to be a Nazi sympathizer.  Now I see that as pitiful, because he admits, he was constantly in and out of the rooms when Lord Darlington held meetings, he even was questioned about what he knew.  Of course he is not going to reveal anything to anyone, out of loyalty, but.... that should have been a wake up call for him.

Stevens own words shows me there is no need to pity him, on the contrary, it gave me joy to read this:

Perhaps it is indeed time I began to look at this whole matter of bantering more enthusiastically. After all, when one thinks about it, it is not such a foolish thing to indulge in -particularly if it is the case that in bantering lies the key to human warmth.   [/b]

I really am not so concerned about how he got here, it's pretty obvious, at least to me, that he followed in his father's and grandfather's footsteps.  Now, he is at the end of his years, and is confronted with reality, and sometimes it's a hard pill to swallow.  There is nothing worse in my opinion, than to devote yourself, your best years to any job, only to come to the end of your years, and look back and question, "What is the dignity in that?"  Now to me, that is pitiful. 

But..... he has years left, and from my perspective, he has decided to live a little more joyful, banter with his boss.  Americans aren't nearly as uptight as the British, so maybe this new boss, Mr. Farraday, will indeed allow Stevens to enjoy life, it's a sure sign just by him offering his car, to pay for the gas, and give him these days off to himself. 

If I had to write the ending, it would be similar to Downton Abbey,  Mr. Stevens, like Mr. Hughes would choose happiness, in any form possible, to live out the remains of his days as a butler, or not.  I would hope this for all people.  I would like for Stevens to be able to say on his death bed, "At least I learned from my mistakes, and I was able to enjoy my last years on earth."  It's never too late to change. Like the stranger told him,

"Now, look, mate, I'm not sure I follow everything you're saying. But if you ask me, your attitude's all wrong, see? Don't keep looking back all the time, you're bound to get depressed. And all right, you can't do your job as well as you used to. But it's the same for all of us, see? We've all got to put our feet up at some point. Look at me. Been happy as a lark since the day I retired. All right,so neither of us are exactly in our first flush of youth, but you've got to keep looking forward." And I believe it was then that he said:

You've got to enjoy yourself. The evening's the best part of the day. You've done your day's work. Now you can put your feet up and enjoy it. That's how I look at it. Ask anybody, they'll all tell you. The evening's the best part of the day."

I see our author telling the readers that Stevens is going to choose a little more happiness, and worry a lot less about dignity.

[ginny]

That's  beautiful, Bellamarie.

The Remains of his "Day."  I like that, a lot!

[ginny]

This morning we have the last of our submitted questions, and tomorrow we'll open the floor for any last thoughts  or questions anyone would like to consider here  on this fascinating book.

This one from Sue, and it's a good one:

I wanted to know why Mr. Stevens couldn’t/didn’t marry since his father (who he greatly respected) did.  That's a good question!

What would you all  say to that?

This question has turned my thinking around again about the bantering. 

MY thought is that the reason is he's not married is that Stevens is not  Mr. Stevens Sr.,  and all that entails.  And that he  HAS made decisions, and this proves it. Why did he not marry Miss Kenton as so many English butlers seem to have done in real life? Was it because as most people would say oh he's repressed? He may be out of touch but he does read Romance novels and she was obviously interested in continuing the relationship personally.

I think he did not because he IS not his father. I think here is one place he has made a decision, and it wasn't his father's because,  bottom line, she did not fit in HIS idealistic plans, too much argument.

My knowledge of "butlers" is entirely from film and books, and not real life in an  English Great House, but the writer Jean Marsh  of Upstairs Downstairs had a relative "in service," from whom she got the idea and the characters fleshed out from real life.  And Julian Fellows of Downton Abbey also has had experience with the very types of characters he writes about. And the time period, we can't forget the time period.

Can you imagine Mr. Stevens Sr. "bantering?"

Hudson "bantering?"

Carson "bantering?"

The best you'd get out of any of them would be a smile and a "My Lord," and a withdrawal. How many times have we seen that? The staff, does Stevens not say it himself  is supposed to be  invisible.

But Mr. Faraday wants two things which are not compatible: "bantering," and "a real English butler."  Or wait wait, DOES he actually  WANT this bantering? He hasn't requested that Stevens banter, has he?  He might be taken aback IF he did, apparently the one time he tried it fell flat.  So what is HE doing?

Whatever HE is doing  the real English butler he HAS, to me, is now at a crossroads.

And his crucible is "bantering." He's been shown his life in tatters, he's crushed by the revelation, the fact that he tried and failed and that his whole purpose in life, his ideal,  has been a pretense, but not of his doing, he tried his very best, he trusted, (just like Lord  Darlington did, actually), and he now has to look at the result, which is not one anybody would want.  His whole life, his ideals, his status, destroyed. NOT of his doing.

Enter "bantering," and a new look at  Mr. Stevens Sr.

And here, to me, Mr. Stevens does make  another decision, which is a two edged sword, in my opinion. No one  can deny  his picking himself up and trying again is laudable, we cheer for him. It takes a LOT, faced with the revelations he's had, to pick self up, the loss of his profession, his purpose, his goal, the loss of his "dignity," his status, his life and start again but he DOES!! He does! 

And everybody over 65 understands best what that takes, and cheers for him.

We cheer, but ....no... no.. wait....what's he doing? He, in service, is going to "learn" to banter.  To me it is noble and  pitiful, because "real English butlers"  don't banter, and in so doing, in trying to please this new employer (not a Lord, an American on top of it,  no "dignity" here, is there?)  he's instantly failed again, because Mr. Faraday will not have the "real English butler" he wants.

He's about to go down the same road again.

Why did Stevens not marry, do you think?

What would Steven's father have done in regards to the "bantering?" 

What do you think?

[bellamarie]

Sue, 

I wanted to know why Mr. Stevens couldn’t/didn’t marry since his father (who he greatly respected) did.

Ginny, 

I think he did not because he IS not his father. I think here is one place he has made a decision, and it wasn't his father's because,  bottom line, she did not fit in HIS idealistic plans, too much argument.

My feelings on why Stevens did not marry is this....

I think, Stevens thought he had more time with Miss Kenton.  She decided to begin dating simply to make him jealous.  He never dated before as far as we know of, so this is unfamiliar to him.  Once she announced she was leaving to marry, in hopes he would ask her to stay, or at least express he had feelings for her, he was taken aback.  Again, he is not experienced in relationships with women.  It makes me wonder, if Miss Kenton would have been more forthcoming, rather than beating about the bush, very possibly they could have made a go of it. 

Their arguing, in my opinion, was a part of their playfulness with each other.  The revelation of him reading romance novels, for me, was a clear indication he had feelings for Miss Kenton, and was hoping to one day pursue them.  He so hoped her marriage was over once he read her letter, and hoped he could have that relationship with her once he traveled to see her, but then again, she says she is staying in her marriage, looking forward to her grandchild, and her future looks bright.  How was he to finally open up to her after hearing this?  I guess it's like the saying goes....missed opportunity. 

I am an optimist, I like to think, Stevens in spite of being an idealist, learned from his mistakes.  The ending of the book gave me hope he did.  He's going to learn to banter more, live a little happier. 

This gave me all indication the author was intending for Stevens to be happy, and more involved with people, rather than stay reserved:

Perhaps it is indeed time I began to look at this whole matter of bantering more enthusiastically. After all, when one thinks about it, it is not such a foolish thing to indulge in -particularly if it is the case that in bantering lies the key to human warmth.[/b] 

He is opening himself up, for possibilities!

Ginny, 

We cheer, but ....no... no.. wait....what's he doing? He, in service, is going to "learn" to banter.  To me it is noble and  pitiful, because "real English butlers"  don't banter, and in so doing, in trying to please this new employer (not a Lord, an American on top of it,  no "dignity" here, is there?)  he's instantly failed again, because Mr. Faraday will not have the "real English butler" he wants.

It's all in how a person's perspective is..... in you saying no..no..no "real English butlers" don't banter..

You are placing Stevens in a stereotyped box, not allowing him a chance to grow, or learn from his past, so he can attempt to have a brighter future, to live out, The Remains of His Days. 

He has an AMERICAN to serve now, Mr. Farrady has already acknowledged it it time for Stevens go have some time for himself.  This indicates to me that Mr. Farraday is not necessarily going to care if he has a "real English butler."  This is not pitiful to me at all..... it's refreshing and hopeful!  He's not ONLY trying to please the new American employer, but he is choosing for himslef, to be open to...."the key to human warmth"

[bellamarie]

I think the first paragraphs, and the last paragraphs of the book, tells the reader, what to expect from this new American employer, and Mr. Stevens.

Prologue: July 1956 Darlington Hall

IT seems increasingly likely that I really will undertake the expedition that has been preoccupying my imagination now for some days. An expedition, I should say, which I will undertake alone, in the comfort of Mr Farraday's Ford; an expedition which, as I foresee it, will take me through much of the finest countryside of England to the West Country, and may keep me away from Darlington Hall for as much as five or six days. The idea of such a journey came about, I should point out, from a most kind suggestion put to me by Mr Farraday himself one afternoon almost a fortnight ago, when I had been dusting the portraits in the library. In fact, as I recall, I was up on the step-ladder dusting the portrait of Viscount Wetherby when my employer had entered carrying a few volumes which he presumably wished returned to the shelves. On seeing my person, he took the opportunity to inform me that he had just that moment finalized plans to return to the United States for a period offive weeks between August and September. Having made this announcement, my employer put his volumes down on a table, seated himself on the chaise-longue, and stretched out his legs. It was then, gazing up at me, that he said: “You realize, Stevens, I don’t expect you to be locked up here in this house all the time I'm away. Why don't you take the car and drive off somewhere for a few days? You look like you could make good use of a break." Coming out of the blue as it did, I did not quite know how to reply to such a suggestion. I recall thanking him for his consideration, but quite probably I said nothing very definite for my employer went on: "I'm serious, Stevens. I really think you should take a break. I'll foot the bill for the gas. You fellows, you're always locked up in these big Houses helping out, how do you ever get to see around this beautiful country of yours?" This was not the first time my employer had raised such a question; indeed, it seems to be something which genuinely troubles him.

___  Mr. Farraday, the American, is from the start, letting Stevens know, things will be different, and he cares about the fact the staff are usually cooped up in these Great Houses, and never get a chance to get out and have fun, time to themselves.

Ending paragraphs....

A few minutes ago, incidentally, shortly after the lights came on, I did turn on my bench a moment to study more closely these throngs of people laughing and chatting behind me. There are people of all ages strolling around this pier: families with children; couples, young and elderly, walking arm in arm. There is a group of six or seven people gathered just a little way behind me who have aroused my curiosity a little. I naturally assumed at first that they were a group of friends out together for the evening. But as I listened to their exchanges, it became apparent they were strangers who had just happened upon one another here on this spot behind me. Evidently, they had all paused a moment for the lights coming on, and then proceeded to fall into conversation with one another. As I watch them now, they are laughing together merrily. It is curious how people can build such warmth among themselves so swiftly. It is possible these particular persons are simply united by the anticipation of the evening ahead. But, then, I rather fancy it has more to do with this skill of bantering. Listening to them now, I can hear them exchanging one bantering remark after another. It is, I would suppose, the way many people like to proceed. In fact, it is possible my bench companion of a while ago expected me to banter with him -in which case, I suppose I was something of a sorry disappointment. Perhaps it is indeed time I began to look at this whole matter of bantering more enthusiastically. After all, when one thinks about it, it is not such a foolish thing to indulge in -particularly if it is the case that in bantering lies the key to human warmth.

___From my take in reading this...Mr. Stevens has realized "bantering" is more a form of communicating with people, laughing, talking, having fun, enjoying one's company.  He is finally realizing it could be the key to human warmth.   

This is an epiphany for Stevens, and a welcoming one at that!

[ginny]

I loved your explanation of why Stevens did not marry!

On Mr. Faraday not caring if he has a "real English Butler," that's not what he says:

" I mean to say, Stevens, this is a genuine  grand old English house, isn't it? That's what I paid for. And you're a genuine old-fashioned English butler, not just some waiter pretending to be one. You're the real thing, aren't you? That's what I wanted, isn't that what I have?" ---Mr. Faraday in Day Two  Afternoon.

I think Mr. Faraday thinks with the brashness of his kind, that he has bought the entire package, the Grand House and the  English Butler.

You are placing Stevens in a stereotyped box, not allowing him a chance to grow, or learn from his past, so he can attempt to have a brighter future, to live out, The Remains of His Days.

I'm not placing Stevens anywhere. A "real English Butler"  was a stereotypical box.


He has an AMERICAN to serve now, Mr. Farrady has already acknowledged it it time for Stevens go have some time for himself.  This indicates to me that Mr. Farraday is not necessarily going to care if he has a "real English butler."

Well then IF Mr. Faraday wants him to banter which I sincerely doubt, then Mr. Faraday will have a real American Butler. I don't think that's what's wanted, at all,  I need to reread Mr. Faraday's bantering,  I did not get that feeling, at all, but I have to go out unfortunately.

Steven's "human warmth" quote comes when he's sitting alone as the lights come on, a lonely time for anybody alone,  on a bench watching the "merry"  talk of others and thinking perhaps this bantering is the clue (still think that's pitiful) to human warmth. It does show his new desire for change in his personal relationships, which is good, but he needs to be true to himself in all change.  I doubt sincerely it will bring him  closer to Mr. Faraday, or improve his job performance.  I expect the opposite, actually. I will find and reread Mr. Faraday's "bantering," and see what it is.

According to the various TV series dealing with the Downstairs, the staff did get time off in which they could go anywhere they liked.  I'm sure we could find precedents for that, if we looked in real life. 

[bellamarie]

Stevens spends much time giving us examples of how Mr. Farraday makes a habit of bantering with him, and how he feels it is expected of him to banter back, which he expresses he is uncomfortable with, but is realizing the Americans do banter back and forth.  Farraday is having fun with Stevens, and I found it very humorous, and a bit endearing.  It's the American way.  That is our first clues, change is coming.

pg. 14 in the ONLINE book: It is quite possible, then, that my employer fully expects me to respond to his bantering in a like manner, and considers my failure to do so a form of negligence. This is, as I say, a matter which has given me much concern. But I must say this business of bantering is not a duty I feel I can ever discharge with enthusiasm. It is all very well, in these changing times, to adapt one's work to take in duties not traditionally within one's realm; but bantering is of another dimension altogether. For one thing, how would one know for sure that at any given moment a response of the bantering sort is truly what is expected? One need hardly dwell on the catastrophic possibility of uttering a bantering remark only to discover it wholly inappropriate.

So in the end, Stevens decides that he will practice this "bantering" because he is realizing it is a way people can enjoy each other.  It's new and strange to him, but this stereotypical, idealist is deciding, change may just be what he needs. 

Excuse me, for attaching "you" in making my point that Stevens is stereotyped and placed in a box. My point was, that if he remains there, then there is no hope for change.  He obviously, comes to the conclusion he needs to be open to change.  He can remain an English butler, fulfill his duties, and sees bantering is one his new American employer expects as a part of his duties, but he also decides this could be a good thing for him, realizing it's a way people converse, and could be the key to human warmth, which is also something he is open to. 

Mr. Farraday indeed does want to be reassured he has bought a real Great House with a real English butler, for appearances sake.  He mentions he would not want to be fooled, and his friends see him as a fraud. 

pg. 90 - 92 in the ONLINE book  Mr. and Mrs. Wakefield come, and are inspecting the  house, and Farraday is assuring them that all the house and butler are "real English" and they question the authenticity.  After talking with Stevens and he does not divulge his full employment they see Farraday a fraud.  Farraday questions Stevens and realizes what has transpired and tells Stevens:

"I'll say it caused embarrassment. Those people have now got me down for a braggart and a liar."

Farraday's words and actions with Stevens from the very beginning, is that he wants his "real English butler" to be more American. 

As Ginny points out, very few "real English butlers", banter with their Lords, but then again, Stevens is NO longer serving a Lord, he is serving an American. 

Now I feel we have just gone about bantering, ourselves.     

[BarbStAubrey]

Back later this evening - need to say Howdy to Sue - Welcome - glad to see your post about Dignity - Reading this I'm getting a different impression than I did reading this years ago - so much in my head it feels daunting how to get it typed out - Ok just needed to let you know I am still here and just about finished this re-read - have 40 more pages - found by doing a black background reading it directly from Amazon rather than using my small kindle it is much easier to read online than even a book but the biggie is allowing me to make the page black with white print - I have special glasses that I use on the computer that takes away the affect of 'blue' lighting - and I darkened the computer but it only affects my page not the web pages - Do you know Ginny is there a way to darken this page? till later... 

[ginny]

Barbara,  so glad you're still here. I have written Marcie about your query as I don't know. When I hear something back I will let you know. .

Bellamarie,

 
Farraday's words and actions with Stevens from the very beginning, is that he wants his "real English butler" to be more American.

As Ginny points out, very few "real English butlers", banter with their Lords, but then again, Stevens is NO longer serving a Lord, he is serving an American.

Mr. Faraday is not bantering. He's out of line. He's using his position to be over familiar with  Stevens and he's WAY out of line. And certainly NO response was necessary or desirable from the person being derided as Stevens was,   besides what Stevens Sr. would have done or Carson or Hudson.  Neither does Mr. Faraday indicate in any way he would like Stevens to josh back or to be familiar  about Faraday's own sexual exploits. Stevens has misread him.


“In any case, Mr. Faraday seized  the opportunity to grin broadly at me and to say with some deliberation:

‘My, my Stevens,  a lady friend. And at your age.’ This was the most embarrassing situation, one in which Lord  Darlington would never have placed an employee.  But then I do not mean to imply anything derogatory about Mr. Faraday; he is, after all, an American gentleman and his ways are often very different;…. there is no question at all that he meant any harm, but you will no doubt appreciate how uncomfortable situation that was for me.


‘ I’d  never have  figured you  for such a ladies man,  Stevens, ’ he went on. ‘Keeps the  spirit young I guess. But then  I really don't know it's right for me to be helping you with such dubious assignations.’

 Naturally, I felt the temptation to deny immediately and unambiguously such motivations as my employer was imputing to me, but saw  in time that to do so would be to rise to Mr. Faraday’s bait, and the situation would  only become increasingly embarrassing.… I would not wish to imply that I in any way blame Mr. Faraday, who is   in no sense  an unkind person; he was, I am sure, merely enjoying this sort of bantering which in United States,  no doubt, is  a sign of good, friendly understanding between employer and employee indulged as a kind of affectionate sport.

‘God help us if she does come,’  Mr. Faraday replied. ‘Maybe you could keep her off our  hands, Stevens,  maybe you could take her out to one of those stables around Mr. Morgan's farm. Keep her entertained in all that hay. She may be just your type.’”

No, this is not bantering and if it is intended as such it’s out of line, and  in keeping with Mr. Faraday’s crassness (in which there certainly can be no "dignity,")  and at no time did Mr Faraday  indicate he wanted  the staff to take such liberties and familiarity  with HIM. 


The "human warmth" quote  was not in relation to Mr. Faraday, but what Stevens hopes will allow him the key to the camaraderie with friends like  he sees in the street. He needs to be himself only, he's popular as he is, note the reaction to him in the various pubs and on park benches, etc.  But if he learns some kind of joke or comeback, that might serve as an opener (which he's proven he does not need) down the pub  as they say, IF he can be any good at it, but not with Mr. Faraday, whose words do not imply he wants Stevens to be a buddy, and to give it back as good as he got. If Stevens  were a female Mr. Faraday would be up for harassment.

[ginny]

Barbara, Marcie says: There are options for visual accessibility that are different for each browser.  You  can do a google search using the words "change browser background color" to find instructions for the various browsers. You  can click on the one that you use.

Hope that helps.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

No, this is not bantering and if it is intended as such it’s out of line, and  in keeping with Mr. Faraday’s crassness (in which there certainly can be no "dignity,")  and at no time did Mr Faraday  indicate he wanted  the staff to take such liberties and familiarity  with HIM.

Whether you accept it as bantering or not, it is what Stevens see it as, and Stevens calls it bantering.  He struggles with how he will be able to adapt to the new duties, that is expected of him, in bantering, since it has never been a part of his duties with Lord Darlington.  Stevens's final thoughts, are that he will practice being better at "bantering" for when Mr. Farraday returns. He has made the decision to make it a part of his duties as Mr. Farraday's butler.

Do I see it as proper etiquette, or a proper relationship between an employer and butler?  Absolutely NOT!  But again, Stevens is saying it's a sport Americans do, and that Mr. Farraday is a gentleman. 

But, Mr. Farraday is not, in my opinion, a distinguished, dignified employer.  Lord Darlington may have been a Nazi sympathizer, and even an anti Semitic, yet he ran a tight ship with decorum. 

Mr. Farraday is the loose American, he is concerned more about what his friends think of him, and appearances.  This is where Stevens has to decide, if he can continue to work for someone like Mr. Farraday.  Ultimately, his final decision is to go back and work for Farraday, knowing the old is out, and the new is in! 

It's a defining moment in the story, to show the changes, from pre war, wartime, and post war.  Nothing stays the same forever.

Ginny,   

The "human warmth" quote  not in relation to Mr. Faraday, but what Stevens hopes will allow him the key to the camaraderie with friends like  he sees in the street.

I completely agree with you.  Stevens sees, that bantering with others could be the key to human warmth, he has decided this could be good for him, but it also means, he will have to deal with Mr. Farraday's inappropriate "bantering" as well.

The author left the reader, understanding that Stevens is well aware of what is expected of him if he chooses to work for Mr. Farraday, what kind of man Farraday is, and the negative and positives of the changes that Stevens will deal with. 

This brings me to my question for tomorrow:

Who would you see more acceptable to work for? 

Lord Darlington, who turned out to be a Nazi sympathizer and anti Semetic, refusing to allow Jews into his Darlington Hall, and refusing to hire Jews, and demanding any employees that are Jews MUST be fired immediately, but runs a proper English waitstaff.

or

Mr. Farraday, the American who is all about appearances, improper sexual bantering, allowing his visitors to humiliate his butler, and does not seem to care that the Great House is understaffed, as long as he can keep up his pretenses in front of his guests.

This my friends is a catch twenty-two.  Or as some say, a quagmire. 
,
Stevens chose to continue working for Lord Darlington, knowing all along who he was.
Stevens is choosing to work for Mr. Farraday, knowing who he is.

Now shall we ask ourselves, what is the definition of "dignity?"  

Can we be fooled by the proper actions, words, and perfect duties of a person? 

Do we place "dignity" onto a person, because of his/her duties performed? 

Stevens gave us examples of people he felt earned the title of "dignity."

But...... now that I have gotten to know Stevens throughout the book, through his own words, actions and thoughts, do I trust his judgement? 

Afterall, he sees Mr. Farraday as a gentlemand, and he trusted Lord Darlington's judgement, and where did that get him? 

In his own words.... Really -one has to ask oneself -what dignity is there in that?"


 

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks Ginny, I will look into it and see if changes to the background color is possible - I finished and I am full - I have yellow marked all the sentence that hit me and yes, the ending was almost poetic - not sure I agree but it sounds good as so many assume retirement should be about - given that after reading tons and learning happiness is about achieving small victories that is a step to your goal, what goals are shown for those if joining arms and meeting people is the supposed goal and waiting for the lights is the goal -

There needs to be more to a life and since the concept of meaningful goals or a book like What Color is Your Parachute After We Loose Some of Our Faculties and Our Energy has not been written or publicly addressed, many are discouraged.  I takes our own ability, our own imagination to carve out a life that for many is at least 30 years of this so called retirement, assuming they retired at age 65.

Many a senior or elder group online bemoans this very issue and if they look to their family they are sorely disappointed since their families have their own challenges and work, just as they did when they had all the work and challenges of raising and keeping together a family. And so, after retirement for many the lose is not having a place around the community fire - even volunteerism is a sink hole, so that it is easy to feel like the firewood to keep others imagined ideas of retirement alive.

The volunteer organizations or opportunities that are within the area of your skills, knowledge and experiences prefer to have younger folks and many a retired person was not a caretaker of children so that rocking a baby is not necessarily their strong suite to even be a goal - living on land that you love with gardens to plan and plant is a plus for only a few and couples do not seem to feel goalless - they usually feel useful and necessary to each other - but once single it is a challenge not to ride the tracks to depression.  Stevens has his work that is ever changing and like his father will die on the job - as he said early in the story, he saw the best of England from within the Hall as compared to Mr. Farrady's looking outward as if the best is outside, that you take it upon yourself to discover rather than depending on, being self-assured that you can attract the best to come to you.

[ginny]

That's a good question for today, bellamarie:

Who would you see more acceptable to work for?

Lord Darlington, who turned out to be a Nazi sympathizer and anti Semetic, refusing to allow Jews into his Darlington Hall, and refusing to hire Jews, and demanding any employees that are Jews MUST be fired immediately, but runs a proper English waitstaff.

or

Mr. Farraday, the American who is all about appearances, improper sexual bantering, allowing his visitors to humiliate his butler, and does not seem to care that the Great House is understaffed, as long as he can keep up his pretenses in front of his guests.

Would the answer depend on whose point of view you are taking?

Stevens seems to answer that himself when he is asked who he works for and says Mr. Faraday, and passes over evasively Lord Darlington entirely.  I can't find it but he  may even have said that was not his time.

When asked by Dr. Carlisle what dignity is, he gives his own definition:

"' You know, Mr. Stevens, ' he said, eventually, 'when I first cane out here, I was a committed socialist. Believed in the best services for all the people and all the rest of it. First came here in 'forty-nine. Socialism would allow people to live with dignity. That's what I believed when I came out here. Sorry, you don't want to hear all this rot.' he turned to me cheerily. 'What about you, old chap?'

'I'm sorry,  sir?'


'What do you think dignity's all about?'

The directness of his inquiry did, I admit,  take me rather by surprise. 'It's rather a hard thing to explain in a few words, sir,' I said. 'But I suspect it comes down to not removing one's clothing in public.'

'Sorry.  What does?'

'Dignity, sir.'

'Ah.' The doctor nodded, but looked a little bemused."

That's Stevens's definition. So if we go on what he says, and he says he wants this "dignity," then Darlington is not the man. Despite Stevens  having  defending Darlington's character and  motives, Darlington had insisted on a court hearing, believing he'd be understood,  and the newspapers trashed his reputation forever.  Forget that he allowed his guests to make sport of Stevens in front of the entire assembly (Little Compton- Cornwall), Stevens would  have forgiven and stuck to him.

So....where does that put us with Faraday? Stevens has  chosen to interpret this unseemly echo of  humiliation as "bantering,"  because he believes Faraday to be a good man,  a kind man, a "gentleman,"  also with pure motives. I can't tell if Stevens really is that ingenuous and only sees people through his own idealistic filter or if he simply does not understand. OR could he actually be rationalizing (some would say "pretending") to himself? Another necessity to attaining the goal of "dignity."

I thought at first you were asking how would we like to see Stevens proceed now. Who would we like to see him working for.

I would have said IF he could afford it (and he admits he's put some aside, how could he not, he's gone nowhere and done nothing to spend it) I'd like to see him retire on his laurels, as HE has done nothing wrong...or has he? And then he could enjoy his former status without too much intrusion on the facts, and try out his new bantering skills.

But then I read Barbara's post and realize that he will die in service by his own choice. Maybe Faraday in the end will be kinder to him than Darlington might have. Assuming he keeps him on for show.  A lot of those old servants were not treated well in the end by their employers...it's hard to say.

He's made his bed, and he's going to sleep in it.

Barbara said:
Stevens has his work that is ever changing and like his father will die on the job - as he said early in the story, he saw the best of England from within the Hall as compared to Mr. Farrady's looking outward as if the best is outside, that you take it upon yourself to discover rather than depending on, being self-assured that you can attract the best to come to you.

The hardest thing, really, isn't it? Takes real courage.

When you think about it,  Stevens saw the best and the worst of England in Darlington Hall.

And there's more...what do you all think about bellamarie's question for today?

[PatH]

It's hard to miss a day with such a fast discussion.  I've got thoughts on dignity, and some other questions too, but can't take time until later today.  But I'll be back.

Welcome, Sue! It's good to have you here.

[bellamarie]

My question was for the reader personally, knowing what we now know of Lord Darlington and Mr. Farraday.

Stevens has already made his choices, as we can see.  Good, bad or indifferent, he made up his mind, to work for both men. 

Barb makes a valid statement, "Stevens, like his father, will die on the job." 

But whether he dies on the job, or retires, as Ginny would like to see him do, I would hope Stevens takes the stranger's advice:

 "Now, look, mate, I'm not sure I follow everything you're saying. But if you ask me, your attitude's all wrong, see? Don't keep looking back all the time, you're bound to get depressed. And all right, you can't do your job as well as you used to. But it's the same for all of us, see? We've all got to put our feet up at some point. Look at me. Been happy as a lark since the day I retired. All right, so neither of us are exactly in our first flush of youth, but you've got to keep looking forward." And I believe it was then that he said:

"You've got to enjoy yourself."

Isn't that what it really comes down to, enjoying yourself? 

As Barb so eloquently stated, "but once single it is a challenge not to ride the tracks to depression."

Barb, I know in the past year, since your retirement, you have been having many struggles.  Please know you are in my thoughts and prayers.  I am hoping your doctors will figure out your eye problems, to at least restore them to the point of no pain, and make it possible for you to continue your years doing the things that you enjoy so very much, such as your knitting, reading, computer research, etc.  I am so happy you were able to join us for this mini discussion.

As for what is the definition of "dignity,"  through all the Google searches I've done, there is not one perfect way to define it.  What one person sees as dignity, another may not. 

Even Stevens himself, could not define it.  He gave us examples of who he thought had dignity, but when asked by Dr. Carlisle what he thought dignity meant, Stevens banters, and says, 

"But I suspect it comes down to not removing one's clothing in public."

PatH.,  Please come back, you always have insightful views. 

[BarbStAubrey]

OK an entirely different approach - I'm seeing this story as one huge analogy to Britain before WWII, which is told mostly as memories by Stevens and the time period of the road trip in the 1950s.

The thought came as I read Stevens describing the view from the bench suggested by the man on the road - something about his description reminded me of a Song many Brits sing with love and affection as we sing America the Beautiful that is not our anthem however, at one time it was talked about as a replacement - for the life of me I could not name the British song but the tune was in my head - sorta remember seeing it sung on one of the Father Brown episodes - finally after searching for well over an hour landed on a page of British patriotic songs and after trying several found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbskIcPZh8A

Which led me to think through the roles of these characters - and saw several quote that made me realize Stevens desire of 'Dignity' was not just about his character and work ethic but he saw Dignity as what must be upheld if you worked in Darlington Hall - which reminded me of being a Catholic attending parochial school in a community with few Catholics and we were instructed our behavior would reflect on  the school - not the principle or the particular teacher or even the pastor, who was well loved. That is how I see Stevens, dignity, code of behavior, admiring and continuing to achieve excellence was to further the long reputation of Darlington Hall rather than to please either Lord Darlington or Farraday 

Then another British patriotic song came to mind - I Vow To The My Country

https://youtu.be/o6ZvylOSy5A

That was when the entire story fell into place for me - of course the various choices of items, places, happenings had to be as they were described - they were all an analogy for the time frame between the 1920s and the 1950s - especially the bantering - Remember how during WWII the Brits had a terrible time with the American soldiers, who, according to many Brits, could not take anything seriously - there was a even a time when their lack of 'bantering' while in the thick of war was explained - because of the defeat at Dunkirk, that the Americans never experienced and how our history was always a victory and we never experienced defeat - this became such an issue the Montgomery's 'drawers' were all tied in knots and he did not want to follow Eisenhower which is how they ended up separating the Brits during the D-Day landing so that Montgomery could have domain over his own forces without attempting to lead these irreverent Yanks.

Than to throw salt in the wound the British girls were falling for the Yanks left and right and the American soldiers were making the official requests from the US Army to marry and those approved would marry the English girls. The Yanks again was blamed - the explanation was the Brits had been fighting for so long that the girls lost contact with the British soldiers and fell for the Americans because they were right there, 'stealing' the women.

Had a cousin, who was stolen by a British sailor and she lived out the war in Britain - in reverse - her experience came to mind later in the story - but let me get to my notes and in another post or two, show how I see this story now as one big analogy which I had not seen when I read it a few years ago - then I was looking at these characters and their experiences as the entire story.   

[BarbStAubrey]

P.S. explains better why Stevens - who in my head sounds and looks just like Carson from Downton rather than Anthony Hopkins - anyhow Stevens was probably inwardly not wanting to share the history of the building to the visiting American's wife - he sure did not like that some American 'stole' with MONEY the history of England wrapped within its architecture and masonry. And so if it is kept a secret as Dignity is a sorta secret process and you do not brag etc. etc. but Darlington is an esteemed part of British History whose character and beauty are not discussed as if shopping at Harod's or bragging about the item purchased.

[BarbStAubrey]

A quote showing Stevens true allegiance to Darlington Hall - "it is just that one never knows when one might be obliged to give out that one is from Darlington Hall, and it is important that one be attired at such times in a manner worthy of one’s position."
(p. 11). 

Which the more I read I see Darlington Hall as an allegory for Britain. Before WWII Britain was the leader of the world - and everyone came to Britain -  the US only became powerful after WW II. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Mr Farraday, who is in no sense an unkind person; he was, I am sure, merely enjoying the sort of bantering which in the United States, no doubt, is a sign of a good, friendly understanding between employer and employee, indulged in as a kind of affectionate sport.

The feeling among the upper class Brits – though I must confess, I remain rather unsure as to how I should respond. In fact, during my first days under Mr Farraday, I was once or twice quite astounded by some of the things he would say to me.
(pp. 14-15)

What I saw was principally field upon field rolling off into the far distance. The land rose and fell gently, and the fields were bordered by hedges and trees. There were dots in some of the distant fields which I assumed to be sheep. To my right, almost on the horizon, I thought I could see the square tower of a church. It was a fine feeling indeed to be standing up there like that, with the sound of summer all around one and a light breeze on one’s face. (p. 26).

The connection between Darlington Hall and Britain - "when I entered my address in her register as ‘Darlington Hall’, I could see her look at me, with some trepidation" (p. 26). Trepidation of expectation just at the very mention of Darlington Hall -

His description inside the room at the Inn - meals on a schedule, tea offered, clean and well made, window to observe the outside, and hard backed chair to wait  - as he, the Butler waits - not just passive but waits as in waits-on with the ramrod duty and excellence of a hard backed chair.

Once outside he describes a rural English town as a comparison to the morning view - "I found myself wandering past delightful rows of old timber-fronted houses, or crossing some little stone footbridge over one of the many streams that flow through the city. And of course, I did not fail to visit the fine cathedral," (p. 27).

"...not Salisbury Cathedral, nor any of the other charming sights of this city, but rather that marvellous view encountered this morning of the rolling English countryside."(p. 28)... "the English landscape at its finest – such as I saw it this morning – possesses a quality that the landscapes of other nations, however more superficially dramatic, inevitably fail to possess. It is, I believe, a quality that will mark out the English landscape to any objective observer as the most deeply satisfying in the world, and this quality is probably best summed up by the term ‘greatness’...the feeling that one is in the presence of greatness. We call this land of ours Great Britain,..."

"It is the very lack of obvious drama or spectacle that sets the beauty of our land apart. What is pertinent is the calmness of that beauty, its sense of restraint. It is as though the land knows of its own beauty, of its own greatness, and feels no need to shout it. In comparison, the sorts of sights offered in such places as Africa and America, though undoubtedly very exciting, would, I am sure, strike the objective viewer as inferior on account of their unseemly demonstrativeness." (pp. 28-29). He could be describing the perfect English Butler -

Step further, Mumford writes that the "chief function of the city is to convert power into form, energy into culture, dead matter into the living symbols of art, biological reproduction into social creativity." Here we have Stevens saying the view of the English countryside is superior to the Cathedral (religious and moral center) and to the city.

England is described as Jerusalem in its national song - Metaphysical meaning - Jerusalem, --habitation of peace; dwelling place of peace; possession of peace; foundation of peace; constitution of harmony; vision of peace; abode of prosperity. With Stevens task as Butler being the same for Darlington Hall - it is a place that where the foundation of peace is discussed, there is harmony among staff and the schedule of duties and events as well as it is an abode of prosperity.

[BarbStAubrey]

And here we have the first hint of England's class system going from the 3 to the 7 of today...

"...an applicant be attached to a distinguished household’. ‘Though of course,’ the Society went on, ‘this by itself is far from sufficient to satisfy requirements.’ It was made clear, furthermore, that the Society did not regard the houses of businessmen or the ‘newly rich’ as ‘distinguished’,...views that certain butlers of excellent quality were to be found in the houses of businessmen, ‘the assumption had to be that the houses of true ladies and gentlemen would not refrain long from acquiring the services of any such persons’." (p. 32).

https://www.indy100.com/article/these-are-the-seven-social-classes-of-britain--ZyoKTbqjdx

[BarbStAubrey]

Tying the attributes of a good butler to the national character of England with 'dignity' assigned as a character but only for those who are in a leadership position as he later decides at the Taylor's that the average farmer does not meet the measure to expect dignity.

"...they will not be shaken out by external events, however surprising, alarming or vexing. They wear their professionalism as a decent gentleman will wear his suit: he will not let ruffians or circumstance tear it off him in the public gaze; he will discard it when, and only when, he wills to do so, and this will invariably be when he is entirely alone. It is, as I say, a matter of ‘dignity’.

It is sometimes said that butlers only truly exist in England. Other countries, whatever title is actually used, have only manservants. I tend to believe this is true. Continentals are unable to be butlers because they are as a breed incapable of the emotional restraint which only the English race are capable of.

Continentals – and by and large the Celts, as you will no doubt agree – are as a rule unable to control themselves in moments of strong emotion, and are thus unable to maintain a professional demeanour other than in the least challenging of situations."(p. 43).

Then further tie is from a good butler to the English landscape that is evoking Jerusalem and is the symbol of Britain.  "It is with such men as it is with the English landscape seen at its best as I did this morning: when one encounters them, one simply knows one is in the presence of greatness." (p. 44).

Another correlation is during the 1920s up till immediately after WWII this superior idea of dignity, non emotional response was evident in England's relationship with its colonies - the US may have become the irreverent independent nation but there is Canada from which England draws a friendship and loyalty more than other nations like India, Egypt, the Sudan, Ghana etc where stories told are quick to show the lack of emotional restraint as the rational for England to be at the top of England's pyramid of nations. 
 

[bellamarie]

Barb, excellent observation, and research.  I do see the book pre war, wartime and post war.  It has spanned over this time frame, and the changes have taken place, not just in the world, but also at Darlington Hall. 

I like your analogy of Stevens representing Dalrington Hall, as the Catholics intended those who attended their school, should be representative of them.  Both would want the person/persons to be exemplary, and dignified.

This book if nothing else, has been interestingly thought provoking!

[BarbStAubrey]

ah then the first bit foreshadowing Britian's poor choices that accompanied England's decline - it is all about the silver - not the candlestick holders but silver currency - and even Mr. Farraday looking at the silver fork that needed cleaning and yet, not giving that much attention to the well polished silver fork when it was replaced - - - reflected in the beginning of the end to the great houses as we saw in Downton after WWI - tid bit to strengthen the silver analogy - Sixpences minted between 1920 and 1946 were struck in 50% silver. Those struck before 1920 are made of 92.5% silver, so accordingly are worth almost double. 

"the full significance of silver – namely, that no other objects in the house were likely to come under such intimate scrutiny from outsiders as was silver during a meal, and as such, it served as a public index of a house’s standards." (p. 134).  We made the tie that Darlington Hall was the embodiment of the nation...

The UK suspended the gold standard in 1914 - this happens preparing and fighting a war. Wartime manufacturing caused inflation and strenghtened trade unions and the Treasury, rather than the Bank of England, printed some banknotes during the war years.

After the war Britain thought they could continue as 'the' world leader, ignoring the consequences of the war. Winston Churchill returned sterling to the gold standard in 1925 at the pre-war rate of $4.86 to the pound.

Problem, the pound was overvalued by 10%. The rate of exchange for sterling had been unchanged since Sir Isaac Newton set it in the 18th century, when he was Master of the Mint.

The End of the Gold Standard comes about with the dollar's growing dominance reduces sterling's importance as a reserve currency, while sterling remained overvalued. By the end of 1925 the economics of the coal industry had collapsed, and 1926 brought not stability, but a six-month coal strike, the general strike, and long-drawn-out unemployment.

Depression hit England as it did in the US and there was a run on sterling in 1931, ending the Gold Standard. The Gold standard broke down globally between 1930-1933,  there was little lending, nations protected what they had and limited international trade. The pound remained afloat until 1939 and the outbreak of WWII.

There is much leading up to and involved in the discussion and symbolism of silver - later with the American Mr. Farraday the issue of silver was again part of the story - After WWII England blew it... in their attempt to stay on top as a leading nation of the world they chose to use the largest portion of the Marshall plan given to any one European nation, to plump up their silver reserves in the National bank of England - instead of like Germany and even France using the fund to rebuild factories and other lines of production for trade that would bring wealth to a nation - within a few years Germany and France were back on their feet and building a strong economy where as England withered on the vine, ending up experiencing a depression.

Here is the story... https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

Wish I didn't have to bring in the ending now but it is connected - the sun  - is sets where, in the west, the location of the US, the sun is on the US as the new leader - He waits, as others do, for the lights to come on - yep, they even had a time of no petrol and no lights - rationing was with them till the mid to late 1950s - the lights did not come back on as a metaphor for peace and being on the road to prosperity till the late 50s, just as the Beatles left for America. And the Beatles had taken on the bantering style of the wartime Yanks.

[BarbStAubrey]

All that at the Taylors - was the landslide victory of the Labor party in 1945 with Prime Minister Clement Attlee (1945–1951)

"Dignity isn’t just something gentlemen have. Dignity’s something every man and woman in this country can strive for and get. You’ll excuse me, sir, but like I said before, we don’t stand on ceremony here when it comes to expressing opinions. And that’s my opinion for what it’s worth. Dignity’s not just something for gentlemen." (p. 185).

"That’s what we fought Hitler for, after all. If Hitler had had things his way, we’d just be slaves now. The whole world would be a few masters and millions upon millions of slaves. And I don’t need to remind anyone here, there’s no dignity to be had in being a slave. That’s what we fought for and that’s what we won. We won the right to be free citizens. And it’s one of the privileges of being born English that no matter who you are, no matter if you’re rich or poor, you’re born free and you’re born so that you can express your opinion freely, and vote in your member of parliament or vote him out. That’s what dignity’s really about," (p. 186).

"Now it’s up to us to exercise our rights, every one of us. Some fine young lads from this village gave their lives to give us that privilege, and the way I see it, each one of us here now owes it to them to play our part. We’ve all got strong opinions here, and it’s our responsibility to get them heard." (p. 189).

The question about Churchill brings up that Labor lost in 1951 to Churchill bringing back some of the conservative past with some changes - "But life being what it is, how can ordinary people truly be expected to have ‘strong opinions’ on all manner of things (p. 194). We’re really so slow in this country to recognize when a thing’s outmoded. Other great nations know full well that to meet the challenges of each new age means discarding old, sometimes well-loved methods. Not so here in Britain. (p. 197).

[BarbStAubrey]

Whow - trying to get all that in is a lot in a short time - there is really a lot more but those are the bigger issues that show me this is a book about British History and the character of a 'great' nation as it saw its twilight years

[bellamarie]

Barb,  GREAT find!!!  I love it!!!  This gives me more clarity of what dignity is, than any place else in the book, or Google search.  It took just a simple, everyday hard working farmer to set Stevens straight on what dignity is. 

"Dignity isn’t just something gentlemen have. Dignity’s something every man and woman in this country can strive for and get. You’ll excuse me, sir, but like I said before, we don’t stand on ceremony here when it comes to expressing opinions. And that’s my opinion for what it’s worth. Dignity’s not just something for gentlemen."[/b] (p. 185).

This is why I prefer reading a book versus online.  I find more, and can mark my spots so much easier in a book.

[ginny]

Which the more I read I see Darlington Hall as an allegory for Britain.

Super analogy,  Barbara!

I think  that idea is  a big part of it, a  running theme as it were, as it is the two series Upstairs Downstairs and Downton Abbey. 

And the loss was tremendous! There's a book here somewhere which lists the changes in fortune of the Great Houses  of Britain and it's humongous and it's staggering, thousands of acres and tremendous castle like structures lost and gone or altered and changed forever. 

What  a place it must have been in its heyday, but then, it did depend upon unlimited money and staff and when the latter found they could do better in WWII in trade and the former dried up (which American heiresses did not supply)  things changed for the majority a good deal.  I really enjoyed your quotes on the silver and gold situation, too, that makes a lot of sense, considering.

Better to dream of the past as we think it was. (I've always liked "A Green and Pleasant Land.") (The New Jerusalem).  A very moving song, they sang it at the Olympics in London as I recall.

And your quotes capture all that so well.

I loved his old  guide book, too, and the earnestness with which he read it and compared it and how when somebody mentioned a different path or different look, he took it.

And I do like the way you included the Harry Smith character: "That’s what we fought Hitler for, after all. If Hitler had had things his way, we’d just be slaves now. The whole world would be a few masters and millions upon millions of slaves. And I don’t need to remind anyone here, there’s no dignity to be had in being a slave. That’s what we fought for and that’s what we won. We won the right to be free citizens. And it’s one of the privileges of being born English that no matter who you are, no matter if you’re rich or poor, you’re born free and you’re born so that you can express your opinion freely, and vote in your member of parliament or vote him out. That’s what dignity’s really about," (p. 186).

I wasn't quite sure why he was in the book, and I do think everything IN the book is there for a reason, so that's helpful as well....Dr. Carlisle seemed to think Harry's  musings were a lot of rot, and Dr. Carlisle himself, I think, is not as far removed from the aristocracy as his socialist former leanings might make us suspect.  His methods of expression, starting out "I say..." and "old chap," and how he immediately knew Stevens was not the real thing the others thought he was.

What other themes or questions do any of you have? It's gone splendidly this way, I really have enjoyed it.

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Thinking on it - it appeared to be unlimited staff until a step back allows us to realize they were not home's as we understand the word home - even the larger mansions here in the US - they were really businesses that hired a large staff - almost like keeping a museum that hires staff and a park that hires gardeners, and landscape artists etc. Those country houses that remain, except for a very few, have become businesses for the public either as a hotel or essentially a museum as paying guests tour the holdings - my thinking the downturn and changes had as much to do with the opportunities for work for staff - in their hayday the Halls were as if in ancient ever Tudor years,  the Lords kept close and made comfortable their people -

I'm thinking some of the Scandinavian Sagas showed us what that was like and then the Halls became more grand that instead of the average follower living together in the Hall they had small cottages close by and those who helped maintain the Hall lived under its roof - It was all dependent upon a pyramid system of authority giving the ones on the top characteristics of nobility and as this book emphasizes dignity - with it was the expectation that if there was war those on top of the pyramid would serve as leaders just as the warriors of old lived and slept in the Hall and the clan owners of the Hall would donate huge sums towards the treasury in order to fight the war.

And so where the Taxes assessed my have done them in I'm seeing the system was broken that kept them - between women's rights, economic progress for the average making a stronger middle and working class, education for all came along during the 1800s, machines took over first harvesting and travel (trains later vehicles) that brought about a whole new set of jobs - and machines even took over some household tasks while creating a business working class of typists, elevator and phone operators -

I do not think that the average person could have thought of themselves as dignified as long as they were doing hard labor for themselves to exist and to add to the wealth of the nation. Those chatting round the table at the Taylor's house - I wonder if that would have been duplicated around the table in a coal mining town even after WWII. Strikes were the name of the day in the late forties and early 50s - and so some from the lower working class were pushing for and wanting essentially the kind of Dignity spoken about in Moscombe.

I was only thinking the other day - kids today have never experienced what most of us experienced and was rampant in the 19th and 20th century - oh there will be many more creative inventions but few to none that affected the average person's everyday life - I remember when we got our first radio although they were around, broadcasting regularly for about 25 years but new in my lifetime were dishwashers, and washing machines that did not require a wringer on the side and a dryer, food freezers and TVs. My grandmother saw new, stoves that did not require building a fire and hot water heaters, other than the tank on top of the wood-burning kitchen stove - our everyday necessities and communication were all mechanized - it was the days of the mechanical engineers - oh folks will get to Mars and other outer space locations but for the average person it was a thrill to see the man on the moon but not the personal change as having a vehicle rather than hitching up a horse  - or paved roads rather than dirt roads filled with horse droppings - or flying a distance that would have taken weeks to travel, much less fly across the ocean that took many over a month on a sailing ship to cross - And medicine - the change just since I was a child - my oh my - I guess that is an area that we will see more direct change and benefit.   

[ginny]

That's true, Barbara, and an excellent point! We in our lifetimes  have seen some tremendous changes in history and in the world when you think about it , and  we also actually pioneered the online book discussion here on the Internet, so we have  adjusted pretty well perhaps. And kudos to those who have kept these discussions going lo these many many many years.  I think there's a lot of worth in constancy. Especially when well done, by those maintaining and participating in  the Books area of our site consistently, and done with heart.

There are a couple more things in the book that we haven't touched on ---I'm particularly confused by the ending of the chapter Little Compton – Cornwall.   

 And in initially thinking of a mini book discussion I think I might've been thinking of something in terms of one or two days but the index card thing cheerfully expanded that. And I really really have enjoyed the whole experience,  as I don't get a chance to participate in the Books  area very much.   And I'm wondering here at the end what else you all might like to bring up because the  Mini  actually has no end so long as somebody wants to say something, and I'm wondering if there's any sort of corner left unexamined that people would like to talk about?

And I'm looking forward to Pat's  comments - always exciting and incisive. 

 For my own part this morning I'm wondering if there is anything we can get from Stevens himself in reading about his experiences that we  might find relevant to our own lives?   Is this just a story about a butler in a Great House in WWII, or does  it have wider implications for us in 2019 ?

Supposedly we learn something from everything we read, no matter what  it is. What is our take away from this one?


What do you think?

[PatH]

Yes, good point, Barb.  I totally missed that.

[BarbStAubrey]

Implications - hmm - there are some but this can become a beehive today with political viewpoints so different and from what I have seen newspapers and magazines are showing different slants and headlines to current news stories based on geographical areas - came across it last year and after seeing it several times realized how easy it is for people to be at odds with each other when the news reflects the majority opinion for each area of the country.

As to personal behavior - I do not think Americans have in their character a predilection for staying in their lane so to speak and to not have and share their opinion especially, on the job. I am remembering for years there was in most businesses a suggestion box that you even received a check if your suggestion was used to better the company in any way. And so for that I think Kazuo Ishiguro was correct to have Stevens say that there is no place else but in England that a Butler could achieve the emotional and work skills of a British Butler.

As to handling several serious issues at the same time while protecting those involved and not loosing control of any of the happenings to us here in America I think we would get a high five from someone or give ourselves a mental high five or at least a 'you did it!' rather than a silent, congratulatory thought about attaining the highest proof of being a 'great' butler with no outward show of the achievement. Which is how Stevens defines being a 'great' butler in an earlier chapter.

Here he is serving an important international meeting that includes the Prime Minster of the nation in one room, being aware of the emotions among staff downstairs and having successful averted a discussion while doing a job downstairs required to satisfy those in the  international meeting upstairs while leaning on the past friendship he helped to establish with an upstairs family member who arrived unexpectedly and with nefarious purpose of learning about the international meeting and who was in attendance, all the while sharing his outrage and desire to make public the meeting as well as try to get Stevens to share and agree with his opinion which, regardless Stevens opinion, he only saw he had a job to do that did not include the emotional outbursts by Reginald Cardinal or Miss Kenton or allow himself to turn to his emotions that were just under the surface over Miss Kenton possibly crying and that Reginald could be correct.

He did it! and so he was given the privilege of a test to prove he was a Great Butler

A few quote that show this aspect of being a great butler

if a butler is to be of any worth to anything or anybody in life, there must surely come a time when he ceases his searching; a time when he must say to himself: ‘This employer embodies all that I find noble and admirable. I will hereafter devote myself to serving him.’ This is loyalty intelligently bestowed. (p. 202).

But what is the sense in forever speculating what might have happened had such and such a moment turned out differently? One could presumably drive oneself to distraction in this way. (p. 179).

– the satisfaction of being able to say with some reason that one’s efforts, in however modest a way, comprise a contribution to the course of history... one has a special duty to show all that is best about service in England. (p. 139).

Indeed, the more one considers it, the more obvious it seems: association with a truly distinguished household is a prerequisite of ‘greatness’. A ‘great’ butler can only be, surely, one who can point to his years of service and say that he has applied his talents to serving a great gentleman – and through the latter, to serving humanity. (p. 117).

constituted a turning point in my professional development, I am speaking very much in terms of my own more humble standards. Even so, if you consider the pressures contingent on me that night, you may not think I delude myself unduly if I go so far as to suggest that I did perhaps display, in the face of everything, at least in some modest degree a ‘dignity’ worthy of someone like Mr Marshall – or come to that, my father. Indeed, why should I deny it? For all its sad associations, whenever I recall that evening today, I find I do so with a large sense of triumph. (p. 110).

one could recognize a great butler as such only after one had seen him perform under some severe test. (p. 43).

they will not be shaken out by external events, however surprising, alarming or vexing. They wear their professionalism as a decent gentleman will wear his suit: he will not let ruffians or circumstance tear it off him in the public gaze; he will discard it when, and only when, he wills to do so, and this will invariably be when he is entirely alone. It is, as I say, a matter of ‘dignity’. (p. 43).

[bellamarie]

For me, I think we've picked this book apart, much like, cleaning a fish to the bones. 

I was curious how well we did, so I Googled for sites that have covered this book. I found this site and read the analysis and summary of the different parts of the book, to see how we compared.  Well, I am happy to say, I'd give us a high score, if not near excellence!  It did not go into the depth of the history, but the themes covered, were: 

Dignity and Greatness
History, Retrospection and Regret
Class Difference and Social Change
Politics and Loyalty
Authenticity, Performance and Self-Deception

I think we grade high marks in seeing all these themes, and discussing them at length.  Kudos to us!!!

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-remains-of-the-day/prologue-july-1956

I don't have much else to comment, but would love to hear from the other members who have not had a chance to post, or those lurking, who may be a bit shy to jump in.  We can be a bit overwhelming at times.   

Thank you Ginny for this mini discussion idea.  I think it was a hit! 

Now I am ready to tend to my flower gardens, lay out by my pool, crack open my easy read beach books, and enjoy the summer! 

Have any of you watched the series on PBS Masterpiece called Poldark?  I have just happen chanced come across it, and think I may begin watching Season 1. It says Season 5 will be the last season.  So I have some catching up to do. 

Poldark is a British historical period drama television series based on the novels of the same title by Winston Graham

Plot
In the late 18th century, Ross Poldark returns from the American War of Independence to his home in Cornwall after three years in the army. Upon his return home, he discovers his father has died, his estate is in ruins and in debt, and his childhood sweetheart Elizabeth is engaged to his cousin Francis. In town, Ross encounters a young woman named Demelza, dressed as a boy. After learning that her father beats her, Poldark offers her lodging and work as a kitchen maid. He then strives to help his father's tenants and the people of the village while attempting to run the copper mines he inherited, sought after by his rival, the greedy and arrogant George Warleggan.

Sounds like something I might like watching, during the summer nights.

[BarbStAubrey]

Great Bellamarie - hoped to see other posts - good summery of topics -

To finish up this chapter with the concept of the story being an allegory for Britain - I did have the most difficult time and was about to through my theory away when one phrase hit me "illuminated by the light from within." (p. 226). And yes the light bulb went on - all the in and out I noticed came into play and now probably up and down takes on a similar metaphor -

Upstairs is easy - we know from many historians telling us of how folks in Britain were believing Hitler - often of late, the concept they were trying to keep the peace is lost when now, we know not only was Hitler not interested in peace but, in perpetrating the horrors that no one in Britain or any place in western civilization could imagine. But then what was this back and forth between Stevens and Miss Kenton all about - how did that fit into this being an allegory for England... 

Another quote that helped line it up... the darkened expanse of the kitchen floor: (p. 218). Well you sure are not going to refer to international affairs as centered in your Kitchen. And he repeats the statement making it important - the cavernous spaces of the dark and empty kitchen. (p. 219). And so; inside, downstairs, in the kitchen, that is illuminated from within - its gotta be something within England and so what is left of its colonies.

Looked up India and that was done with which could help explain, standing alone in the back corridor before the closed door
(p. 212). And then this that says he has been down this journey before, "walking down the corridor again on my return journey," (p. 226). And so if it is not India and not the Sudan or South Africa it has got to be Ireland and I thought all that was settled - appears not.

Looks like although the southern part of Ireland obtained independence a few years earlier there was still political fighting over the treaty over trade and land tax from before 1914 that Chamberlain was dealing with - my guess is the mounting interest in Europe overshadowed what was happening in Ireland  Hitler invades Poland in September 1939 where as this chapter appears to be taking place after the 1936 Olympics and probably in 1938 before Chamberlain meets with Hitler in September of '38. --- And as if their wretched Rally and their wretched Olympic Games weren’t enough, (p. 224) suggesting the '36 Olympics was in the past. So what was going on between Ireland and Britain in 1938

"Relations between the United Kingdom and the Irish Free State had been strained since the 1932 appointment of Éamon de Valera, as President of the Executive Council. The Anglo-Irish Trade War, sparked by the withholding of money that Ireland had agreed to pay the United Kingdom, had caused economic losses on both sides, and the two nations were anxious for a settlement...Talks had been suspended under Baldwin in 1936 but resumed in November 1937...

The Irish proved very tough negotiators, so much so that Chamberlain complained that one of de Valera's offers had "presented United Kingdom ministers with a three-leafed shamrock, none of the leaves of which had any advantages for the UK."  With the talks facing deadlock, Chamberlain made the Irish a final offer in March 1938 which acceded to many Irish positions, though he was confident that he had "only given up the small things," and the agreements were signed on 25 April 1938.

 The issue of partition was not resolved, but the Irish agreed to pay £10 million to the British. There was no provision in the treaties for British access to the Treaty Ports in time of war, but Chamberlain accepted de Valera's oral assurance that in the event of war the British would have access.

 Conservative backbencher Winston Churchill attacked the agreements in Parliament for surrendering the Treaty Ports... When war came, de Valera denied Britain access to the Treaty Ports under Irish neutrality. Churchill railed against these treaties...Chamberlain believed that the Treaty Ports were unusable if Ireland was hostile, and deemed their loss worthwhile to assure friendly relations with Dublin.

The 1938 Northern Ireland general election was held on 9 February 1938. Like all previous elections to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, it produced a large majority for the Ulster Unionist Party. The newly-formed Ulster Progressive Unionist Association came second in vote share, but won no seats."

And this poignant moment says as much as we will ever get from the heart of Stevens that could also suggest how Britain felt about the loss of Ireland - Ireland was essentially the last of their losses that included India, Egypt and many nations in Africa.

I paused in the dimness of the corridor, the tray in my hands, an ever-growing conviction mounting within me that just a few yards away, on the other side of that door,(p. 226). followed by why it was just a pause and not a major event... "I was required to hurry upstairs to serve some of the most distinguished gentlemen of the land and I cannot imagine I would have delayed unduly. (p. 227).

[ginny]

My goodness, thank you, Bellamarie for that list of the themes we should have covered but didn't take a month to do and eureka! I am somewhat amazed, myself, but I shouldn't have been.  We have a lot of intelligent readers here who  don't miss many tricks and who all added something different, most of which I never would have thought of.

I am not sure we covered regrets, did we? I regret that we did not cover regrets, or did we? From Mr. Stevens? More perhaps from Miss Kenton, she seems to have had quite the rocky marriage.  (I take that from her  having left him several times).

Did we hit on regrets?

I really like that "report card,"  thank you for bringing it here.

Barbara, what a fascinating post, and some of those quotes you took from the book I swear I have never seen, and they are important.  Great job!

I loved your figuring out the date of the story and also how you got the Ireland importance, that passed right by me. I have never really understood what I should about Irish history.

But this quote seems the crux of the thing, to me:  – the satisfaction of being able to say with some reason that one’s efforts, in however modest a way, comprise a contribution to the course of history... one has a special duty to show all that is best about service in England. (p. 139).

Indeed, the more one considers it, the more obvious it seems: association with a truly distinguished household is a prerequisite of ‘greatness’. A ‘great’ butler can only be, surely, one who can point to his years of service and say that he has applied his talents to serving a great gentleman – and through the latter, to serving humanity. (p. 117).

Does it not seem that everybody, everywhere, then, and now,  would  like to make a difference in some way? Would like for their own contribution, however small,  to count? I love his modesty here, his lack of ego, he wants to make  a difference and if HE can't, he will contribute by serving somebody who is.  Surely that is humility?

This characteristic of Stevens is why I don't  see his story as most of those commenting online in other reviews do: melancholy. He never stops trying to make a difference, a contribution, however small.

Any last thoughts from anybody?

[PatH]

One thing I wonder about is Stevens' relationship with his father.  Stevens is working to excel at his father's notion of what one should be, wants his approval, but we don't really see if there is any liking or affection there.

In their last conversation, the dying father asks his son twice, "have I been a good father to you?" and Stevens doesn't answer.

[PatH]

I'll try to give brief summary of my thoughts on dignity.  My dictionary has a handful of definitions, which I boil down to external: behavior or bearing, and position--rank or profession and internal: "elevation of character; intrinsic worth; excellence".

We see how Stevens has perfected the external.  His behavior is impeccable, and his position one of considerable dignity, but what about the internal?  What is he like inside, and how admirable is it?  I like to think Stevens is working on that now, because that way lies happiness.  He's trying to make something of what his life turned out to be, do a good job of what he's got.  He'll fail at the banter, but he may find something he's comfortable with, and maybe even figure out how to be more human.  If he can find  something inside him that he feels good about, the book has a happy ending.  What are his chances?

[PatH]

Barb, thanks for rearranging those quotes about what makes a good butler.  That makes it glaringly obvious what Stevens is up to.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, thanks for giving us a report card.  I think we did pretty well.