The Remains of the Day ~ Kazuo Ishiguro ~ Mini Discussion for June 19th

[BooksAdmin]

Looking for a new experience? Mark your calendar for June 19 for our first ever Mini Book Discussion!!   First up: The Remains of the  Day by Kazuo Ishiguro, Nobel Prize Winner for Literature, the book itself a Booker Award Winner: "Flawlessly written...brilliant and deeply moving novel....wonderful in every sense." Help us make this new experiment a reality by your input.

The book is online! https://epdf.pub/the-remains-of-the-day5432cca46b2ef2aacd17a6de48471e2a84368.html  ---submitted by bellamarie

[ginny]

Welcome, welcome to a first for us, a fun (hopefully) new Mini series for the long hot summer, starting with The Remains of the  Day.

To go with the new title,  we're going to try a new exciting way of doing it, too, a new format,  and YOU will be the judge of how well it works. For starters we'll want to have the entire book read, just like a face to face bookclub.

Tune in Monday the 17th for news of the new format, and then on the 19th,  (Wednesday)  bring your lawn chairs, and maybe some lemonade, and join us under the trees, for our first ever Mini Book Club discussion.

Hope to see you then!

[bellamarie]

Ginny,  I'm not sure about the "long hot summer," we are so chilly today, here in Toledo, Ohio I had to put on sweats and a sweatshirt.  I look forward to the new mini discussion and format.  I've got my spot ready on my patio swing, and diet coke, since I'm not a fan of lemonade, or iced tea.  Let's do this!  See ya'll on in a few days.

[PatH]

I'm looking forward to this.  It's a good book, with lots to talk about.

[ginny]

Oh good, welcome, welcome! I am looking forward to this, too.  It's new, and different, and we can say if we like it or not and tweak it, once we've  given it a chance, and  in general just enjoy ourselves fully.  No muss, no fuss,  no bother, just discuss a book.

Bellamarie on the Diet Coke, I am not sure I have drunk a glass of lemonade in years, not sure why we form these ideals. Mine is much more dangerous:  Diet Pepsi, and diet drinks are now being implicated in dementia. I am trying to get off it but it's more addictive than cocaine apparently. 

And I DO drink it constantly, really the only thing I do drink, actually but now  am trying to stop with one in the morning and perhaps just a sip or two at night. And in between Evian, the only water I can enjoy the taste of, very good water, thank God, unfortunately it has plastic in it but so does Diet Pepsi so what can you say?

I think I'll go ahead and put in the new format today so everyone can be thinking about  it.

I got this great suggestion from a Library, apparently it's an ALA suggestion and I love it.

It's obviously for a face to face group but I'd like to try it anyway.

Here it is:

I as moderator  am to give out index cards at our first meeting and you are to write ONE thing on the card, a question or a thought about the book, and you are to hand it back to me (that might be an issue) and then I am to shuffle the cards and pick one and off we go.

And WE are then to address your "index card," and no other topic for that day, but we can chat amongst ourselves on what each has said ABOUT the index card.

I love this. It gives everyone a chance to not only present their own idea or question or thought but for the entire group to then address it. I love that.

But here how can we do the Index Card?

You COULD email it, but then I'd have to pick and there are bound to be hurt feelings if one's card is left for last.

Here's what I think, what do YOU think?

You now, if reading this, have your index card. So if you will write one question on it or one thought about the book, no matter what it is, and on Wednesday we'll start with....now here's a problem...we'll start...hmmmm

What  seems logical is that I will start, and since it will be early in the morning I'll start with mine....OR you can email  me yours and I 'll do alphabetically by first (or last) names? Maybe avatars would be best?

And then on....hmmm...Thursday you to come in alphabetically and  put YOURS, we can talk aboiut the previous day until you get here, we understand we are busy and are in different time zones, and WE are to discuss only your Index card from that point on for Thursday but we can ALSO refer back to the first Index card  or somebody's thoughts but we can't raise another index card item till all index cards have been dealt with.

In other words, everybody has their day and we address their point on that day and after.

So theoretically at the end of the days numbering the people in the discussion we theoretically should be finished?

That's the mini part.

What if we aren't finished?

Then we start again?

I really really really want this kind of focus on YOUR point ("index card")  even if we're through in a couple of days, because ordinary book clubs are through in one  day. I want us not to have to sit here 24 hours each day to do it either, we're an online book club full of busy people.

Your thoughts?

[bellamarie]

Ginny,  I quit drinking any diet coke, or regular pop for over a year.  I really did not miss it.  I do not drink diet coke, every day.  It's ONLY when I eat pizza, or other fast foods.  Which lately has been too often.  Mostly, I do drink bottled water plain, or with fresh lemon slices.  I love my morning coffee, and usually rewarm it throughout the day.  But overall, it's bottled water.  We quit drinking our faucet water, and stopped giving it to our dog a few years back, when we had such a horrible algae bloom scare, in our water system. 

I like your format with index cards.  I will email you mine, as soon as I can decide what to ask, or what thought I would like to discuss.  We can see if you get enough responses to keep the discussion going.  If you we can always as you say, tweak it.  Oh, and you might want to give us your email address, since I for one, do not have it. 

[ginny]

Well that's why I backed off that idea after I thought about it, I can't print an email address  here? Because of the bots.  So let's do our own index cards and after the first day we'll do Plan B  (we'll go by alphabetical order after Wednesday) and then that will be the same thing.

[PatH]

Can't we still send personal messages?  If I tap someone's name above their avatar in a discussion, or look them up on the Member List, one of the things under their picture is Send pm.  Does it still work?  Emails don't appear in pms.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  It appears that some of the members do not allow you to have access to privately email them.  If you notice under each of our pics there is an envelope, for those who do allow you to email them.

[ginny]

Those are good points, Bellamarie and Pat. The PM thing is disabled as it was not working well, and apparently was causing some confusion.

The little envelope does allow email, if registered on the site, I had forgotten that, to tell you the truth. Some people would rather not take the chance of having their email listed even that way.  We've come a long way in security on this site and I  like to think we are now catching those who register only for that purpose, we monitor this site  constantly, we watch who is here, so I doubt there's  much risk, but still those who don't want to take that risk have that option.

 Let's try it once with us putting in our own index card in for this  first try at a new type of discussion, because I'm finding this morning that  my own sentence or question  seems to need a lot of explanation (which may indicate it's not a very good point, actually, hahahaa ) and then the next time you can do that email thing and I'll print them and then actually physically  shuffle them, I like that.

Let's try that? We'll do it this way once  and then do it by email the next, so we can try those two ways and there may be even a third way?

I really like trying out new ideas.

It's almost as good as doing it in person. I like that.

[ginny]

And on the water, Bellamarie, what a hoot, I'm the same way about pizza.  If I eat pizza, for some unknown reason I have to have milk to drink with it. I have no idea why.

And public water, I agree totally as well. When we moved out here to the farm almost 40 years ago, they were spraying the vineyard with Agent White, something you don't hear much about any more. We had well water and I of course went ballistic. Long story short I finally sent off to a private  lab for tests and it had methoxychlor in it, small traces, blah blah but methyoxycholor none the less, which is apparently some kind of pesticide and that's when I stopped drinking water or tea from the tap. Then we got "city water," which my husband thought was awful but still uses and the bottled water saga continued.

Now they say the plastic particles in bottled drinks of any kind including spring water are not good for you, we are becoming plastic,  (and some bottled water actually is nothing but "city water" bottled, and it says so on the label). 

So one can get totally crazy about what we are doing to ourselves,  but it is what it is. We an at least try, is my theory. I'm not going to suddenly start drinking tap water after all this time.

[PatH]

What about someone who is put off by the need to think up a question?  I presume they are still welcome to join in and talk?

[bellamarie]

Ginny,  I have to confess, I am a little confused as to what we are going to do for the index cards, so you start us off so we can see how it works.  I am up for anything, it's always fun trying new things. 

PatH., Yes, of course, any one and every one is welcome to join in on the discussion.  Some one may not have a question, but maybe they have a thought they would like to discuss.  I am a little stumped with a question myself, but I haven't given it enough thought yet.  I'm going to wait for Ginny to begin us.

Yes, I agree, we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't when it comes to the water issue, so I just proceed with caution, and stay away from the faucet water.  My son is a distributor for 7-Up, although I think now they are owned by Keurig/Pepsico/Dr. Pepper/Snapple, anyway they sell one of the most clean bottled waters named CORE.  In researching, your Evian is among the top ten best bottled waters on the market with a ph level of 7.5 or higher.  Here is an interesting link.
https://www.reviews.com/bottled-water/

[ginny]

OH of course, everybody is welcome. I thought people might like to say something and have others address that one topic for the whole day, but we're used to other procedures here.  And I'm trying to do  something different.

 I didn't take into account the intimidation factor.  I should not have tried to paraphrase them.

Yes, certainly one need not think of anything in particular for their day, much less a question. And they need not have an index card OR a  day, it was just a thought.


I'll start tomorrow because I do have a question for the group and we can see how it goes from there. 

[bellamarie]

I just finished the book!  I will give it some thought throughout the rest of today, and be ready for tomorrow's discussion to begin.

[ginny]

Also very cool, Bellamarie, on the Evian! It is, to me, soothing to the stomach, and I guess I see why now. It tastes good, too.

[PatH]

Oops.  You caught me short. I thought we were starting the 19th and I still have a bit to read with no time tonight. Well better late than never.

[ginny]

We are starting the 19th,  we have not started yet. This is just  what passes for the Pre Discussion.

 I went ahead and put in the Index card idea ahead of time so it would not be a shock! hahaha Usually the "heading" will have questions. Ours does not, I guess the Index Card thing IS the heading. But we don't have to  use, it, either.


The American Library Association suggests some interesting  generic questions or topics, lots of interesting ideas there, and I can see us talking about some of them. too. I had put them here but then I thought that's too much, let's just start out and see where it goes. I see bellamarie in the Library using the word "melancholy" for this book. I don't find it so at all. Perfect book to chat about!!! We can explore each other's ideas on things. Love it.

But see what you think about June 19 first.

Hope to see you all then.

[ginny]

 And I'm quite excited to find that Sue has sent in a question (index card) and hopes to join us despite Jury Duty,  my fingers are crossed. I am (or used to be) never excused from Jury Duty.

 It's a good question, too, I'm excited that the new system is attracting more folks!

[bellamarie]

How do we send in an index card?  How did she get an index card to send in, and where did she send it to?  I am completely confused.   

[ginny]

She sent me a question as a former Latin student who has my email address, since she may have Jury Duty. But anyone could use that envelope that you spoke of before?

I can email anybody who would like my email address? But it's also in  the envelope.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, there is NO envelope under your name.  Can you please send me your email address.  I have an envelope under my name, so you can use my email address.  Thank you!

[ginny]

Sure! I will be glad to! How strange, I see an envelope  under my name. But some of us reading this don't have email so I think perhaps for those who don't or for those who would like to chat without it anyway, we probably can use both: the email or the just posting in the discussion, either way works fine.  Lots to work out with this new format, but we can do it. 

PS In Edit: The envelope should now be showing?

[ginny]

And a bright good morning to you all and welcome to our newest Mini Book Club discussion of The Remains of the Day, and thank  you for trying out our new format.  As Pat says there is so much to discuss, where to start?

It’s hard to even pick a place as the author has done such a job with it but I think I’d like to start with what the ALA would call MY "index card of the day,"  the main thought I carried away or question I was wondering about. and it is   “Why, Mr. Stevens, why, why, why do you always have to  pretend?" (Miss Kenton in Day Three- Evening)

My question is DO you think he’s pretending?

All though the book the author has shown us two stories, one from Mr. Steven’s  viewpoint and one from everybody else’s about Mr. Stevens. When we combine them we get, or so we think, the whole picture. But do we?

The author makes a big point of showing Mr. Stevens when he IS pretending and the result, when his car breaks down, he acknowledges that then. But at the end of the book does he say his entire life has been pretending? Does the author seem  to say that through the other characters? And if he does, do you agree? If so, what is your opinion of Mr. Stevens, then? Even when his world as he set his life on is crumbling, does he say he's been wrong?

I recently saw a revival of a 50 year old Arthur Miller play called The Price in which two  grown men years after their father’s death meet to finally disperse of his effects. The younger brother says to the older, from whom he has been estranged for many years,  and from whom he learns finally the truth of their long misunderstanding, something like “but that can’t be. If it IS true  my entire life has been wasted” (or words to that effect). His entire life of service to  his aging father, his choice of career,  has been a mistake.

Stevens says “….we were, as I say, an idealistic generation for whom the question was not simply one of how well one practice one’s skills, but to what end one did so: each of us harboured the desire to make  our own small contribution to the creation of a better world, and saw that, as professionals, the surest means of doing so would be to serve the great gentlemen of our times in whose hand civilization had been entrusted.”  (Day Two- Afternoon)

To me Miss Kenton’s statement captures the essence of the debate of the book: IS he pretending or IS he trying to idealistically make his own small mark towards what he sees, rightly or wrongly, a better world? And that can apply to 2019, too,  if  others in 2019 in different ways are doing the same thing, are they in fact only pretending? Fooling themselves?  I think it’s an important part of the book and I wonder what your thoughts are?

It's SOO nice to have somebody to chat over a book with! I have missed that.

Penny for your thoughts.

[PatH]

Ginny, I've been wondering about some of what you mention too.  What is Stevens actually thinking and feeling?  Would his interior voice really talk that way, or is he fabricating?  For a start, I don't think he is consciously making up his feelings and motives, but what is he doing?

[ginny]

 I don't know!

What a good question! Why would he...who is he speaking to? Us? Himself?

What would cause somebody who had spent their whole life in pursuit of an ideal to suddenly have to defend it? Or IS it sudden? Seems like he has a lot of discussion with others about it.

Who is threatening it? What has caused this?

I don't know! What a good point! If things go wrong in your life do you feel the need to justify your thoughts? Is that what he's doing?

To himself? Or to us? Or? If he's not consciously making up his feelings or motives (is that "pretending?") then... what can we say he's doing and what does it mean?

[bellamarie]

Good Morning, Ginny, and to all who will be discussing this interesting book.  I have a lot of different thoughts on Mr. Stevens, but I will begin with giving you my reply to Ginny's question:

Ginny, My question is DO you think he’s pretending?

Yes, at times I do think Stevens is pretending, but not entirely throughout the book. 

By the definition of the word, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pretend
transitive verb. 1 : to give a false appearance of being, possessing, or performing does not pretend to be a psychiatrist. 2a : to make believe : feign he pretended deafness. b : to claim, represent, or assert falsely, pretending an emotion he could not really feel.

Indeed, Stevens at times, pretends to the people on his travels he is a person of great importance. He does not always correct those who insinuate he could be a Lordship, especially at the Taylors.

Day Three· -Evening Moscombe, near Tavistock, Devon

Now I am not at all sure what made me utter my next statement; all I can say is that it seemed somehow called for in the circumstances in which I found myself. For I then said: "In fact, I tended to concern myself with international affairs more than domestic ones. Foreign policy, that is to say." I was a little taken aback by the effect this seemed to have upon my listeners. That is to say, a sense of awe seemed to descend on them. I added quickly: "I never held any high office, mind you. Any influence I exerted was in a strictly unofficial capacity." But the hushed silence remained for several more seconds. "Excuseme, sir," Mrs Taylor said eventually, "but have you ever met Mr Churchill?" "Mr Churchill? He did come to the house on a number of occasions. But to be quite frank, Mrs Taylor, during the time I was most involved in great affairs, Mr Churchill was not such a key figure and was not really expected to become one. The likes of Mr Eden and Lord Halifax were more frequent visitors in those days." "But you have actually met Mr Churchill, sir? What an honour to be able to say that." "I don't agree with many things Mr Churchill says," Mr Harry Smith said, "but there's no doubt about it, he's a great man. It must be quite something, sir, to be discussing matters with his like." "Well, I must reiterate,” I said, "I didn't have a great deal to do with Mr
Churchill. But as you rightly point out, it's rather gratifying to have consorted with him. In fact, all in all, I suppose I have been very fortunate, I would be the first to admit that. It has been my good fortune, after all, to have consorted not just with Mr Churchill, but with many other great leaders and men of influence -from America and from Europe. And when you think that it was my good fortune to have had their ear on many great issues of the day, yes, when I think back, I do feel a certain gratitude. It's a great privilege, after all, to have been given a part to play, however small, on the world's stage."


I trustI need hardly underline the extent of the discomfort I suffered tonight on account of the unfortunate misunderstanding concerning my person. I can only say now that in all honesty I fail to see how I might reasonably have prevented the situation developing as it did; for by the stage I had become aware of what was occurring, things had gone so far I could not have enlightened these people without creating much embarrassment all round. In any case, regrettable as the whole business was, I do not see that any real harm has been done. I will, after all, take my leave of these people in the morning and presumably never encounter them again. There seems little point in dwelling on the matter.

But Dr. Carlisle was pretty keen and could see through Stevens, and calls him out the next morning.

Day Four -Afternoon Little Compton, Cornwall

"I say, I hope you don't think me very rude. But you aren't a manservant of some sort, are you?" I must confess, my overwhelming feeling on hearing this wasone of relief. "I am indeed, sir. In fact, I am the butler of Darlington Hall, near Oxford." "Thought so. All that about having met Winston Churchill and so on. I thought to myself, well, either the chap's been lying his head off, or then it occurred to me, there's one simple explanation. " Dr Carlisle turned to me with a smile as he continued to steer the car up the steep winding road. I said: "It wasn't my intention to deceive anyone, sir. However...”"Oh, no need to explain, old fellow. I can quite see how it happened. I mean to say, you are a pretty impressive specimen. The likes of the people here, they're bound to take you for at least a lord or a duke." The doctor gave a hearty laugh. "It must do one good to be mistaken for a lord every now and then.

There are other times in the book, which shows Stevens likes to pretend he is someone of high importance, and he uses his position in Darlington Hall, to make the rest of the servants feel beneath him.  If I may be so blunt, I see him as a Pompous Ass!   

[bellamarie]

PatH., We were posting at the same time, and I have wondered the same thing.  Stevens to me seems almost robotic.  His father is on his dying bed, trying to have a personal moment with him, and he is unable to emotionally connect with him.  He puts his "duty" first, which gives him a way out of feeling anything.  Yet, tears are noticed later on his face, and he is not even aware of the fact, he is reacting to his father dying.  I can somewhat understand that his father also put his "duty" first, teaching him it is what is expected, but where are his human feelings.  He goes through the entire book refusing to allow himself to be in touch with his deeper emotions. 

Miss Kenton tries to bring him to acknowledge he has feelings a few times in the book, and yet he refuses.  He uses her maiden name, and her married name, back and forth, in their final meeting, which for me shows he is struggling with acknowledging the reality of her marriage and final good-bye, and his hopes from her letter, of her choosing to come back to Darlington Hall/him.   

[PatH]

Bellamarie:

Yes, at times I do think Stevens is pretending, but not entirely throughout the book.

Definitely, Bellamarie.  Making the other servants feel beneath him was one of the occasions where Stevens wasn't pretending.  The population of servants of a Great Hall like Darlington was a rigidly structured society, with clearly drawn lines of power and authority.  As the butler, Stevens didn't have to do anything to make the other servants feel beneath him; in that little self-contained microcosm they were beneath him, and he pretty much had absolute authority.

[ginny]

"Pompous Ass," do you really? What a hoot, I love it, I don't see that at all, and so many many good points. I've been thinking about Pat's again, the both of you are opening up things I am not sure I've seen, and I'm just now seeing bellamarie's. I need to go think about that  one, so MANY good points.  ( I like to go off and think about what you've all  said, I get a lot out of that, and often see a lot of new things.)

In fact I  need to go out for a bit so everybody just keep right on and say what you think and I'll be back later this afternoon  to see what's happening. We're not seeking consensus, so all opinions are welcome.

In response to Pat above, having thought about it and I think it also addresses some of bellamarie's, but supposedly in this work Stevens is considered an "unreliable narrator," that is,  what he says, how he presents himself, and how he really is,  are two different things.  Supposedly we are shown this by the other characters in the book and the knowledge that Stevens admits, even to  himself,  that Lord Darlington was in fact not only noble but actually a pawn of the Nazi's in his idealistic efforts,  and came to some disgrace. BUT he meant well, according to Stevens and THAT seems to be what matters, to him, because it allows Stevens to fulfill what he sees as his destiny. AND because he knows, full well, that all idealistic enterprises do not end in  success.  And as far as being taken in by the Nazis, so  was, for that matter,   The Duke of Windsor (Edward VIII), was he not?

But something bellamarie just said sort of puts a pin in that balloon when Stevens is reluctant to say whose service he was in. He does mention Mr. Faraday but seems (I must go back and look) to deny Lord Darlington, doesn't he? I need to reread that spot.

If THAT's the case, is he lying to himself?  Is that pretending? Or does he simply not owe the reader or Dr. Carlisle a fuller explanation. Perhaps we need to figure out why he denied him.

There's a saying in this part of the world, perhaps in yours, too, "you're not fooling anybody but yourself." I've always hated  it.

But truly who is able in this world to tell you what your purpose or meaning in life is? You,  or the people you meet?

And that doesn't even scratch the surface of what you two have said, BOY what a book.

Oh and Pat has posted again, too! A feast to think about.

Back later, please do discuss, the MINI is not intended to run a month. Off to a super start, I really like this, so far!

[bellamarie]

I think as proud as Stevens is, in knowing he served Lord Darlington all those years, now, since there is a bit of stain on Lord Darlington's name, he shies away from mentioning him, instead he says he is butler to Mr. Farraday, an American.  Well, I'm sure very few people have any inkling, as to who this American, who has just taken over Darlington Hall is.

Stevens is struggling with realizing, Miss Kenton is NOT coming back to Darlington Hall.  He had high hopes, it was a possible future he could look forward to.  From the very beginning of this story, it is about his journey to hopefully, bring Miss Kenton back with him to Darlington Hall.  Now, he is faced with feeling he gave his best years to Lord Darlington, and he has passed his opportunity up with Miss Kenton.  Here he tries to justify and dignify his years as a butler, but does he fall short?

"The fact is, of course," I said after a while, "I gave my best to Lord Darlington. I gave him the very best I had to give, and now -well -I find I do not have a great deal more left to give." The man said nothing, but nodded, so I went on: "Since my new employer Mr Farraday arrived, I've tried very hard, very hard indeed, to provide the sort of service I would like him to have. I've tried and tried, but whatever I do I find I am far from reaching the standards I once set myself. More and more errors are appearing in my work. Quite trivial in themselves -at least so far. But they're of the sort I would never have made before, and I know what they signify. Goodness knows, I've tried and tried, but it's no use. I've given what I had to give. I gave it all to Lord Darlington."

"Oh dear, mate. Here, you want a hankie? I've got one somewhere. Here we are. It's fairly clean. Just blew my nose once this morning, that's all. Have a go, mate." "Oh dear, no, thank you, it's quite all right. I'm very sorry, I'm afraid the travelling has tired me. I'm very sorry."

"You must have been very attached to this Lord whatever. And it's three years since he passed away, you say? I can see you were very attached to him, mate." "Lord Darlington wasn't a bad man. He wasn't a bad man at all. And at least he had the privilege of being able to say at the end of his life that he made his own mistakes. His lordship was a courageous man. He chose a certain path in life, it proved to be a misguided one, but there, he chose it, he can say that at least. As for myself, I cannot even claim that. You see, I trusted. I trusted in his lordship's wisdom. All those years I served him, I trusted I was doing something worthwhile. I can't even say I made my own mistakes. Really -one has to ask oneself -what dignity is there in that?"

Ginny,  but supposedly in this work Stevens is considered an "unreliable narrator," that is,  what he says, how he presents himself, and how he really is, are two different things.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think Stevens, nor the narrator, is certain one way or the other, who Stevens "really is."  The people around him are fooled, Miss Kenton got glimpses of a man who had some qualities she saw in him, allowing her to have feelings for him, Lord Darlington saw him as his butler and someone to bounce ideas off of, visitors to Darlington Hall either expected he knew more than he did, or he knew nothing at all, and was a fraud.  I personally, could see him pompous at times, prideful, and also a bit pitiful. Maybe the author was not even certain as to who Stevens really was.  He chose to leave him void, in my opinion.

Off to do come errands for the day.....  can't wait to hear what everyone else has to say.  Jump in, the waters fine!!  Like Ginny said, we do not have to come to a consensus.  Each one of us are going to see things from our individual perspective, and there are no wrong or right answers.  It's always exciting to see others view points.

[BarbStAubrey]

Not sure how long I can post - pain is the stopper - frankly I did not read all the preceding posts - did want to add a bit - have not finished re-reading but yes, I too found a different story or rather value system in the story...

For me Stevens self-esteem and identity is within his job - he has no family and so everything that brings him a sense of worth and happiness is his job. He dresses as he takes pride in himself the same as he seeks excellence in how he performs his job.

Having retired from my job last summer and the struggle to stay relevant is real - I realized how easily society speaks of retirement as a personal, inward, out of the way lifestyle with few books or stories showing single retired people how to be relevant unless, they are living in among a group of retired folks, or are married and therefore, relevant to each other, or they still are part of a family where they offer encouragement and often their skills that make the family a stronger unit. However, many many today are living alone, seldom seeing family and find, as I did, that even volunteer groups do not want the elderly to help out. You have to find your own outlet - here in this story we have a single person relevant because of their work.

The fact that Stevens' new 'boss', Mr. Farraday, gave him carte blanch to take a vacation was not making it real until Stevens could own the vacation. Make plans and actually sees its benefit. As to Mr. Farraday's intention - probably to show he was a likeable boss that gives 'free candy' so to speak which is not what makes for real happiness.

Having this winter researched and researched Happiness - With so many books written about Happiness - I found a simple explanation that rings true - we are happy when we have completed a task toward our goal. Not someone's goal for us but our goal.

Just looking up Happiness the feeling is described - but them looking into how to achieve happiness all sorts of recipes are suggested and for each part of the 'recipe' another psychologist bunks how a particulate pursuit will only bring temporary happiness - most definitions go like this... “the experience of joy, contentment, or positive well-being, (Ok all feelings) combined with a sense (aha out of the feeling category and into the thinking brain) that one's life is good, meaningful, and worthwhile.”

Meaningful and worthwhile - meaningful according to whom - and over and over we are told to live to make others happy is putting your happiness in their hands - and that is the difference I see in our story - his desire and need to perfect each aspect of his job is his choice and gives him meaning even if his boss is not wholly aware of the totality of the job or the details that go into perfecting the job. That feeling of satisfaction that you have further perfected a job you love is closer to happiness then 'free candy' bestowed on you by the receiver of your work. Acknowledging the details of your work would have gone so much further to making Sevens feel worthwhile.

One of the constants, reading about achieving happiness is "The Journey Is More Enjoyable Than the Destination" which I see exemplified as he plans his trip. Along those lines the story shows me more of the concept of a journey with this quote on making happiness... "We naturally seek fulfillment, purpose, effort, and new goals. Therefore, you may be disappointed if you get to a goal and think it will make you happy. You can still chase these goals, but the real enjoyment is usually in the process of improving and getting there, not the actual achievement itself."

Just to throw in the opposite of happiness is depression. Depression is not having goals or the goals are not made into steps so that it is impossible to make regular progress towards achieving the goal. Those who never experience small victories fall into depression.

This explanation of happiness is how I see his Father's death - he was achieving his sense of worth till the day he died. He was not put on the woodpile or did he accept being left aside. Instead he persisted in the only outlet he had, that allowed him to esteem himself as worthy which had nothing to do with the 'boss' and everything to do with his sense of who he is.

Furthering the idea that Stevens sees his worth in performing 'well' his job; when Mr. Marshall, Mr. Lane, and Mr. Graham visit and sit around the fire their conversation is usually about various problems they were having at work, or larger questions such as debating the definition of "dignity." And so I see that as meaning Stevens associates his worth by not just doing a job well but with dignity and that to achieve dignity means doing the job well with precision.  And with that being his goal in life to have his feeling of worth would be in constant conflict with a Miss Kenton.

Today too many think of pleasing a boss for advancement or obtaining a raise - seldom do we read of perfecting a job for its sake - oh there are quotes in older business books advocating this is the road to success but today it is more about the 4 hour work day or work week. How to cut corners to achieve an end. Where as where I do find this thinking of feeling a sense of worth by having a personal goal and by chipping away as if on a journey to be better by perfecting the tasks that are accomplishing the goal is in the many books written by couples who are making better their surroundings and bringing beauty to their lives and surroundings. The goal may be to bring about more love and loyalty to an organization, family unit or even the care of 'things' however, achieving the small success is what these books are all about - the latest that I have been reading is a delightful couple full of wisdom, Erin and Ben Napier whose book Make Something Good Today is now a constant companion.

No, their job is not limited to one house and one boss but then, we are a more group thinking society in America with a Democracy that depends on elections for its leadership rather than, a Monarchy that in an English Country House is replicated with the 'Lord of the Manor' so to speak being the un-elected leader that, unlike Mr. Farraday, expects a calm, dignified and perfectly run estate without giving out  'free candy'. 

Lots more on the Nazi issue but for now that is it - now to go put more of these drops in - so far drops are keeping things going till we figure out our next move - if the drops work, that I find out next week, then that may be how we will proceed

[bellamarie]

Barb, it is so exciting to see your post, and you joining in the discussion!  I so hope your drops work, and they can proceed to the next step in getting you relief with your eyes.  As usual, you brought much insight into ways to see Mr. Stevens.  I do think by the time we get to the end of the book, and he has realized he is now making small mistakes in his job, he is feeling a bit down.  Miss Kenton has not only decided to stay in her marriage, but is so looking forward to being a Grandmother.  She has new purpose in her life, her future is filled with hope and happiness.  Stevens hope has been dashed, and now that he sees he has given his best to Lord Darlington, and Mr. Farraday seems like as you put it, "the candy man" this can not come a bit close, to Stevens feeling the pride and dignity, he so felt when being butler to Lord Darlington.  This is why I found the book to be a bit melancholy.  He comes to the end of his journey on the road of hope for his future with Miss Kenton, and realizes, he has to figure out what is next for him. 

Depression is a serious matter for people who are at any point in their life, where they see themselves as meaningless.  Stevens is crying while talking with a perfect stranger, and the stranger realizes poor Stevens, has attached his whole self worth, to a man who has been dead for three years. 

So where does this leave Stevens?  Where does he go from here?  Can he return to Darlington Hall and work for a man who will expect so much less, and know he will not be able to live up to the potential he expected of himself all these years?  I suppose any of us can relate to Stevens, when faced with retirement.  Barb you made so many great points about how one deals, once they are retired, how their life must have new meaning, and how it is important to feel you are still contributing to life and family.  I can see why the author left Stevens where he was, at the end of the book.  For me he seems void, but I also think, he like everyone else, must figure out, what comes next?

[ginny]

Oh my word, what a DAY! I'll spare you the details but here I am dragging in at 8 pm, covered with chigger bites, fire ant bites,  mosquito bites, what else CAN bite? Pulled a tick off that's the third one this week, I mean NATURE is running ramPANT out there!

I'm through with that for a while, I hope.

But now clean and somewhat revived, what a joy to look and see Barbara here! Welcome back Barbara, I am sorry for the pain and hope that they can so something to stop it, but I'm so glad you're here, what wonderful thoughts!

Gee I don't know where to start...It may take a few posts..

[ginny]

Going back to Pat's last post and bellamarie's before I left, and the points raised there, Pat is right on the Great Houses, dead right,  but Stevens can't run one without staff.  Is this something Mr. Faraday understands? I don't recall if in fact Stevens has brought up what a "real" English butler needs to him, but we all know Mr. Faraday expects the real thing.

I found that interesting.  Remember  Upstairs, Downstairs and Mr. Hudson? And remember the changes that happened during WWII? WWII really changed the idea of noble service in the Great Houses forever, and that's what the first Upstairs, Downstairs was about. So much changed but Stevens has not, he's caught right in the middle of it, the change...

And the disillusionment. I thought all day about those two posts and one thing we have not mentioned but Barbara got close with her goals, dead on there, is idealism. Stevens has already said in the quote I put in that "we were an idealistic generation," and he's dead on the money. WE were, too, at least we were in my high school. I can recall in high school all they ever talked about to us was what good we were going to do in the world, what were WE going to do to make it a better place?

When I think of  Stevens and his not wanting to acknowledge Lord Darlington to the doctor, I have a feeling he does not think the doctor would understand, but the other butler did. And because the other butler was a kindred soul then Stevens could let out his real feelings, which bellamarie has just put in here, and they are very poignant, perhaps one of the key themes of the entire piece, i think. He did his best, Lord Darlington let him down, but Lord Darlington tried, but his judgment was faulty,  and Stevens's  idealistic goals depended upon Lord Darlington, that was the way service worked in Steven's world,

Stevens  did his best, by his own standards, the standards he was raised to attain, his own idealistic goals:  it's exactly what Barbara said, it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, you set your own goals, that was brilliant.

I thought today driving along that Stevens is an Idealist, and  I am not sure Idealists are connected with the same reality the rest of us are. I don't think "pretending" is the right word, they aren't pretending, they see things differently, their  eyes are on attaining the ideal, they are focused only on that, and see things only in that light.

So if we can accept Stevens as Idealist, all Miss Kenton's attempts to "humanize"  him are going nowhere, he does not understand them. It's not that there's something wrong with him, at all. SHE does not realize, I think, what he's really about.  Would it have made any difference if she had?

Perhaps? Perhaps it would  have,  but they really did not get along that well. Her behavior was not what fit in his Ideal,  and he felt  he needed to tell her so. SHE of course, a strong character in herself, did not appreciate that, and they were often at loggerheads.  I'm not sure why. It appears she married really on a whim, did I get that right?

He was proud of his father, I can see that pushing that rolling tray with the mops and the food in my mind's eye now: there are some who would think that ludicrous and some who might think that pitiful but  I agree totally with this: This explanation of happiness is how I see his Father's death - he was achieving his sense of worth till the day he died. He was not put on the woodpile or did he accept being left aside. Instead he persisted in the only outlet he had, that allowed him to esteem himself as worthy which had nothing to do with the 'boss' and everything to do with his sense of who he is.

"Esteem himself as worthy," seems very important there. That's circling in on the real Stevens, maybe?

This is why Stevens insisted that his father be addressed properly, as was his due, even though he found himself in very distressed straits.  Father and son understood each other.

TODAY we would wring our hands at that bedside scene and wonder what is wrong with him, does he have some kind of psychological issue?  I have to wonder what the author meant by writing Stevens's character the way he did?

Bellamarie addressed this earlier: Maybe the author was not even certain as to who Stevens really was.


What do the rest of you think on this one? What do you think  the author wants us to think?  Are we to pity him as the old school caught in a maelstrom?  Prince William just got through saying the traditional "stiff upper lip" in some circumstances is very overrated, talking about the death of his mother. What an awful thing for  those boys. Are we to feel sorry for Stevens  since he's not found happiness with Miss Kenton or anybody else? Do YOU?

Honestly, to be such a short book, the thing is absolutely BRIMMING with topics and every day it seems to me a different theme is the most important.

He's an Idealist, to me, caught in making his own Eutopia, (maybe that's not the right word) the way he was taught, doing what  he knows what to do and now...he's making mistakes (because he has no business trying to run a big house without the minimum 15 or 20  people it normally takes), but that's life as it was post war.

He's enough of an idealist to feel sorry for Lord Darlington here in bellamarie's quote:

 "Lord Darlington wasn't a bad man. He wasn't a bad man at all. And at least he had the privilege of being able to say at the end of his life that he made his own mistakes. His lordship was a courageous man. He chose a certain path in life, it proved to be a misguided one, but there, he chose it, he can say that at least. As for myself, I cannot even claim that. You see, I trusted. I trusted in his lordship's wisdom. All those years I served him, I trusted I was doing something worthwhile. I can't even say I made my own mistakes. Really -one has to ask oneself -what dignity is there in that?"

The logic here changes about half way through those  last three sentences, and I can't quite figure it  out.  He's defending Lord Darlington as only  another idealist can, and it's quite kind, considering,  but then.... but then he's suddenly cast down starting about the place here: "You see, I trusted...." Now something happens to Stevens which...I am not sure I understand.  Why can't he say he made his own mistakes?

And of course the last clause there: "What dignity is there in that?"

That happens to be the subject of our  Index Card for tomorrow from bellamarie (going in alphabetical order) and the subject is "dignity,"   as shown in this novel, and it's a good question,  to give everybody something to think about before tomorrow.

Love it ! What a great start on the discussion! THANK you!

[bellamarie]

Ginny, Chiggers, fire ants, mosquitoes and ticks.....oh my!!  I was raised in a rural area, with acres and acres of land, spending endless days and nights outdoors, but never did I deal with chiggers or ticks.  You simply amuse me, forgive me if I snicker, imagining you jumping and dancing to avoid another bite.  So glad you are in for the night, all cleaned up and revived.

Ginny and Barb have decided Stevens is an idealist, and I tend to agree with them, which explains why he is out of touch with people's emotions, and he is unable to show his own emotions, or express them, especially to his father on his dying bed, or to Miss Kenton when her aunt died, or when she is practically begging him to ask her not to leave Darlington Hall, or when she is searching for him to say more to her in their final meeting.  These events in life do not fit into his ideal world, they throw off his balance, so he must place himself back into his ideals, of how it all is suppose to go. 

Listening to politicians, especially the upcoming idealistic millennials, I notice they don't factor in the reality of things throwing off the balance of the ideals.  They can only see what fits their ideals, their narrative.  I do tend to feel sad for these type of people, because we all know there will be happenings in the world that will indeed be unforeseeable, and for idealists, it can rock their entire world.  Just as Lord Darlington falling from grace, and ultimately dying did to Stevens.   


What does being an idealist mean?
An idealist is someone who envisions an ideal world rather than the real one. Some people consider idealists to be naive, impractical, and out of touch with reality. Idealists think that striving for perfection makes the world a better place.  
https://www.google.com/search?q=idealistic+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&oq=idealistic&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.5922j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Ginny, 

The logic here changes about half way through those  last three sentences, and I can't quite figure it  out.  He's defending Lord Darlington as only  another idealist can, and it's quite kind, considering,  but then.... but then he's suddenly cast down starting about the place here: "You see, I trusted...." Now something happens to Stevens which...I am not sure I understand.  Why can't he say he made his own mistakes?

Yes, I too noticed the change in Stevens, he starts out defending his loyalty to Lord Darlington, but then "reality" seeps in, and it throws off his idealistic narrative of life.  He can't come to admit, HE could have made mistakes in choosing to serve this man, trust this man, who was later considered evil for sympathizing with Hitler.  How could Stevens admit that he placed his loyalty and trust in a man he thought to have great wisdom and judgement, only to find it was not so?  Would this not seem his entire time at Darlington Hall was a ruse?  He himself, asks, "What dignity is there in that?"

The author is struggling to keep Stevens an idealist, yet is showing how when met with reality, he is not able to deal with it.  Kazuo Ishiguro is brilliant in conveying the struggle an idealist deals with, when reality enters into their world.

Stevens could have had a wonderful life with Miss Kenton, in spite of their bickering. They had intimate talks over tea each night, their bantering was playful, and I do believe, had Stevens been able to express his love for her, she would have stayed, and they would have had a happy life together. 

This book reminds me of the Masterpiece TV series, Downton Abby, where Mr. Carson, the head butler, and Mrs. Hughes, the head housekeeper fall in love, but deny their feelings for years, due to his loyalty to Lord Grantham.  They meet nightly to discuss the goings on and upcoming events over tea, in her quarters.  Mr. Carson was an idealist just like Stevens, and Mrs. Hughes was a realist, like Miss Kenton, they finally married and lived happily ever after!   It will be a movie coming out in September, and I can't wait to see it.

[ginny]

OH!! There it IS, thank you for this quote, bellamarie: What does being an idealist mean?

An idealist is someone who envisions an ideal world rather than the real one. Some people consider idealists to be naive, impractical, and out of touch with reality. Idealists think that striving for perfection makes the world a better place.

Out of touch, not with being a  Butler (his idealistic goal)  and what THAT means but with everybody else. Perfect!

But being a Butler in a Great House carried perks, too, and note those perks...and here I stop and think again about Barbara talking about retirement and the loss of being known as...but what IS it we lose? 

The Butler's Society...and IT of course is very dignified, is a real perk. It's like sitting at a table with all of your idols and being accepted, isn't it?   I have been thinking about the word "dignity" all night in preparation for bellamarie's index card today and I'm no further than I was. What a good question:



Stevens spent a lot of time describing what he thought "dignity" meant.  He gave us examples of other butlers, who he felt exemplified dignity.  According to Stevens, dignity was attached to duty.  Stevens even felt he himself, due to his loyalty and service to Lord Darlington, qualified him as one with dignity.  My question is this....  is dignity attached to duty, or is dignity a state of character a person possesses regardless of job performance?


I have struggled to even think of the word "dignity" in 2019. I believe the last time I heard it used was in relation to "the office of the President of the United States."

What does it mean? How can a job confer dignity? What a good question. Are we in 2019 concerned with it as much as they used to be? Should we be?

And then at the last when he's truly telling the other butler (who himself seems to have nothing of any particular presence, or this elusive dignity,  isn't he a bum?),  Stevens says, "All those years I served him, I trusted I was doing something worthwhile. I can't even say I made my own mistakes. Really -one has to ask oneself -what dignity is there in that?"

I don't know what this means?  Is he trying to pass off .....what he now sees as a wasted life....Just like the character in The Price, who gave his all, did not go to college, took a job as a policeman and took care of his aging father all his life, when HE was the smart one and his brother got to go to medical school, only to find out from that brother, whose life was a mess, that the  money the younger brother had asked his brother for (something like 500 dollars) to get into college (this is an old book) was answered by his doctor brother (they are years apart) "Ask dad."  He believed, he trusted that his father was poor, and devoted the rest of his life to taking care of him only to find, only to find that "dad" had $5,000 in the bank  all that time and could easily have helped him.

BUT he does not deny that he made that decision himself, he made the choice, given the circumstances to give up his own dreams of career to take care of his father: he made  his own mistakes.

And that is exactly what bellamarie just said:

Yes, I too noticed the change in Stevens, he starts out defending his loyalty to Lord Darlington, but then "reality" seeps in, and it throws off his idealistic narrative of life.  He can't come to admit, HE could have made mistakes in choosing to serve this man, trust this man, who was later considered evil for sympathizing with Hitler.  How could Stevens admit that he placed his loyalty and trust in a man he thought to have great wisdom and judgement, only to find it was not so?  Would this not seem his entire time at Darlington Hall was a ruse?  He himself, asks, "What dignity is there in that?"

So is Ishiguro saying that idealists cannot survive in the real world? And who creates that "real world," anyway?

And in response to THAT, I would have to say, the issue  of "RUSE" has reared its head again, this time  not in any pretending on his part, but rather in....what?

I am very confused over Steven's idea of "dignity."  Does he mean worth? Does he mean status?

Off the top of my head (pop psychology this morning) I would say that in order for somebody to be obsessed with "dignity," whatever that means, indicates to me he or she has seen the opposite, in spades and it's left  an indelible mark.

What do you all think about this "dignity," which is being constantly referenced and to which I have paid absolutely no attention the entire book?

Super question and start on Day 2!

[bellamarie]

Dignity for me has a few different meanings.... I feel the "dignity of life" is the God given right to life.  Every individual has that inherent value and worth, and is born with the dignity of life.

dignity also for me means....an honor given to a person, who has earned it through exemplary actions, as a soldier who goes to the battlefield, rifle in hand, facing the enemy, knowing he could die for the belief in, and love of his country, or a president or leader who serves his country under extreme duress conditions, and puts the people of his country before him, hence the saying, "dignity of the office."

dignity also for others I feel means..... earned respect/ status/self worth, in which I do think this is how Stevens refers to dignity.  Stevens feels because he, and other butlers have been loyal, exercised their duties to the best of their abilities, and gave up their own personal lives for the Lord of the Manor, that earned them the respect/status/worthiness, and in doing so, has dignity. 

It's very important throughout the book for Stevens to feel he has earned this honor/status/self worthiness, of dignity for his services.  But then in the end, when reality sets in, he questions everything about his life, and the years of trust and loyalty he gave to Lord Darlington, who proves to have not necessarily been a worthy man, to give such loyalty and service to.  It has to be earth shattering for Stevens to be at the end of his best years, to wonder what is next for him, and has he foolishly served an impostor. 
It reminds me of the story, The Emperor's New Clothes. People had to believe the Emperor had on clothes of royalty, because if they actually saw the reality of the foolishness of the the Emperor being naked, they then would see the foolishness in themselves, for putting their blind trust in such a person.  Poor Stevens, must at least feel he earned the status/dignity/worthiness, he so obsesses over, to prove his life was worth something, to know he has self worth.

Ginny asks,

So is Ishiguro saying that idealists cannot survive in the real world? And who creates that "real world," anyway?

In my opinion, and here I,  like you Ginny, will go out on a limb and play amateur psychologist, I believe idealist not only can live in the real world, but do so every day.  They just have a very difficult time when reality squashes, their idealist narrative of life. 

Not to get political, but this idea of a Green New Deal by AOC, is for me a perfect example of an idealist believing so strongly in her ideals, that when presented with the reality of how her ideals would banish air travel, train travel, energy,cows, etc., she was like a deer in headlights.  She has convinced herself, (or someone else has convinced her) and wanted to convince the country, that if we did not get on board with her idealistic views, and implement this Green New Deal, asap, the world will end in 10 - 12 years. Her own party was like the people in the story of The Emperor's New Clothes, until a few of them were forced to see the reality of what effects this would have on the country/world.  I mean how could you conduct any business or vacation in Hawaii or other places in the world without this diesel fueled transportation?

Stevens was convinced he made all the right choices in serving, and being loyal to Lord Darlington, and when he is faced with the reality, he is left with, what next?

Ginny, 

And who creates that "real world," anyway?

My best guess..... those with status and power. 

As a Christian, I know God created a "perfect" world, and Lucifer wanted the power God had, so he exerted himself to achieve that goal, that status, only to be struck down to a snake, and Adam and Eve were tempted by him to eat of the forbidden tree, which we all know how that ended, and I will go one step further and ask, didn't Stevens himself want Lord Darlinton's status, I mean he did pretend he was the Lord to the Taylors and others.  So yes, we can follow commandments, or we, like the people in the Emperor's story, or Adam and Eve in the Bible story, can allow others to set the status quo/real world.  Every person chooses to believe and act in their own way, whether you are an idealist, pragmatist or realist..... you choose.  God gave us all, "free will, along with inherent human dignity." 

If we are disappointed in the end, we have only ourselves to blame, as does Stevens.
 

[SueC]

Just some random thoughts….

Good question – duty or a state of character.  I always thought of dignity as being about self-control.  You don’t normally call emotionally distraught people dignified unless they are self-controlled; showing a minimum of distress no matter what the circumstances may be.   And Stevens is very self-controlled.

Where did he learn this – from his father, his mother or other servants?  Was he always like this?  I’m always fascinated by how people become who they become.  Why did he become dignified – it must have fulfilled some need in him that sustained him all of these years.  Did it allow him to remain aloof from the mess that can be life? 

[ginny]

Welcome, Sue! We are so glad to see you here!!!

What great points, both of you, on dignity.

I thought to look it up, I don't hear it much any more.

Webster's gives this definition:

Definition of dignity
1 : formal reserve or seriousness of manner, appearance, or language
2 : the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed
3a : high rank, office, or position
b : a legal title of nobility or honor

Synonyms for dignity

Synonyms

class, fashion, quality, rank, standing, state

If THOSE are the definitions Stevens is going for, can we say he's attained it?

Company has come in, back in a mo.

WELCOME, SUE! More to say later