Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371781 times)

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #280 on: August 18, 2009, 12:39:22 AM »

"I want to know what were the steps by which
man passed from barbarism to civilization (Voltaire)"

   



What are our origins?
Where are we now?
Where are we headed?
Share your thoughts with us!
   Volume Five (The Renaissance)
       
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "
 
"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "
       
"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."
       
"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."



SAVONAROLA AND THE REPUBLIC

The Prophet
The Statesman
Literature: The Martyr
Architecture and Sculpture: The Republic and the Medici
Art Under the Revolution

In this volume the  term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples. 

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.


This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Discussion Leader: robby




Ambrogio Calepini gave his name to the early English dictionaries (Calepins). and
predated by a couple of hundred years the later lexicographers extolled here by the
Oxford Dictionary -

http://www.askoxford.com/worldofwords/oed/legendarylexicographers/?view=uk

Wikipedia has a fine picture of a bust of this learned Augustinian monk 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrogio_Calepino





Emily: I think Hubbard is right (who ever he is. By the way who is he?) I think it's only a question of time till one Christian sect or another finds enough deviation in their respective beliefs to start killing one another again. Christ asked his father to forgive those who tormented him but the followers never seemed to fully grasp the idea. They seem to be more concerned with ritual than with understanding the message. Does one stand up or sit down during the reading of the creed? Does one drink wine and eat bread  or swallow a symbolic wafer in a communion experience?  It would all be worth while if religious people were to select the two or three good ideas resident in religions in general and forget all the trappings that have caused so much concern over the centuries. The "Golden Rule" was developed during the Sumerian civilization and various religions have picked it up as their own. It is a worthwhile idea that promotes peace on earth and goodwill toward men.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #281 on: August 20, 2009, 11:09:00 PM »
Justin here is a short excerpt from Wiki on Kin Hubbard.

Frank McKinney Hubbard (born 1 September 1868 in Bellefontaine, Ohio - died: 26 December 1930 in Indianapolis, Indiana) was an American cartoonist, humorist, and journalist better known by his pen name "Kin" Hubbard.

He was creator of the cartoon "Abe Martin of Brown County" which ran in U.S. newspapers from 1904 until his death in 1930, and was the originator of many political quips that remain in use. North American humorist Will Rogers reportedly declared Kin to be "America's greatest humorist.


Emily

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #282 on: August 21, 2009, 12:56:50 AM »
Thank you, Emily. Kin Hubbard is a new name to me. But if Will Rogers vouched for him, he comes with fine credentials. I wonder what else he had to say that is memorable. !904 to 1930 was an exciting time period in US history. It began with the closing of the frontier, the end of Indian warfare, WW1, the rejection of US collaboration in the European peace movement, and the collapse of the financial markets in the face of wild speculation. 

JoanK

  • BooksDL
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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #283 on: August 22, 2009, 08:46:03 PM »
And don't forget industrialization, the movement from the farms to the city, the largest flood of immigrants this country had ever seen, and the surging birthrate that movement to an industrial economy brings. The population of the US doubled in ten years, leading to racist and anti-immegrant scars we're still stuck with. Also leading to all sorts of social movements and upheavals.

I love reading about that time.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #284 on: August 23, 2009, 12:42:19 AM »
Even the Saints were at war with other saints during the Schism. If we think the saints were saintly we are mistaken. St. Catherine of Sienna supported Urban although she warned him to bring his behavior into line with Godly expectations or she would  see to it  that God wrapped his knuckles. She called Clement a heretic and a Judas. St Vincent on the other hand was a supporter of Clement and an advocate for reform in the Church. This kind of squabbling was hardest on the poor parishioners who wanted nothing more than to obey so they would not suffer for  eternity in hell. But they were denied the right to salvation and thus were doomed to spend eternity in hell. Of course, they believed that and fear must have been one's constant companion. When the guys at the top sneeze the folks on the bottom rung pay for that excess by serving in hell for eternity. I know it's ridiculous, but the poor illiterate were mentally enslaved by the hierarchy of the church.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #285 on: August 30, 2009, 04:46:23 PM »
Let us continue with "The Councils and the Popes" - 1409-18

Rebellious philosophers, almost a century before, had laid the foundations of the conciliar movement.  William of Occam protested against identifying the Church with the clergy.  The Church, he said, is the congregation of all the faithful.  That whole has authority superior to any part.  It may delegate its authority to a general council, which should have the power to elect, reprove, punish, or depose the pope.

A general council, said Marsilius of Padua, is the gathered intelligence of Christendom.  How shall any one man dare set up his own intelligence above it?  Such a council should be composed not only of clergy but also of laymen elected by the people.  And its deliberations should be free from domination by the pope.


Isn't this exactly how the United States of America is set up?

Robby

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #286 on: August 31, 2009, 01:57:16 AM »
Yes, I think there are elements of the American political system in Occam's proposal but only very elementary elements. Certainly, the idea that a leader is subordinate to the whole  body politic is clearly a Greek as well as an American element. So too is the concept of a representative subset of the body politic with power to elect and dismiss a leader for malfeasance.  That's really the American contribution to the concept.

However, the significance of Occam's proposal lies in it's daring suggestion that the successor of Peter did not have the power that Christ gave him when he said" Peter, you are the rock upon which my church will be built."
That dictum had lasted for 1500 years  as the basis of Papal power. Then along comes Occam with the very radical notion that the Papacy is subservient to the Christian congregation as a whole. That's Heresy with a capital H. It is in fact the first sign of reformation. The idea smolders and grows until it bursts forth in a great flame during  a period of exceptional Papal decadence in the form of 39 theses pinned to the doors of a church in Wittenburg by Martin Luther, an Augustinian monk. We are looking at the spark that provided ignition for the conflagration we call Protestantism today.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #287 on: August 31, 2009, 04:02:44 PM »
Laymen elected by the people!?!That's an idea I have never heard connected to the Catholic Church! What a change of perspective!.................jean

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #288 on: September 01, 2009, 12:23:40 AM »
Protestants are exactly what their name implies. They will protest against the office of the pope. They will separate and divide into so many factions eventually that their power will be muted. It will also lessen the power of the pope. Both of those facts are a good thing in my opinion. Both of these groups also drain money from people who can least afford it, as does every other so called 'faith' in the world.

It would have been the perfect time to have thrown out the dishes with the dishwater and labeled these so called gods what they were, myths. We label the Greek gods, the Roman gods, the Norse gods, the Aztec gods etc. all myths, so why not the Arab gods. I have never believed in myths of any description, but have read them all, as myths, never reality.

The myth carriers and controllers used intimidation and fear to keep their myths alive and the money rolling in. The death penalty was put on those who defied their teaching. Especially the non believers had to be very careful of what they said or wrote, so as to avoid the axe or stake.

I am struggling to finish a book written by an ancient ancestor who lived around this time in France. He wrote about economic theory of all things. I found his name on a list of books to be banned in Spain during the Inquisition. He was Catholic, superstitious, and professed to be a believer, but was a suspect to the church. I felt he lacked courage, but my daughter thinks he was only trying to stay alive in a time of inquisition.

Emily

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #289 on: September 01, 2009, 02:35:18 AM »
Papal Councils have been used since the 3rd century to solve complex issues of dogma and to form the essential character of the Church. The results of a council must be blessed by a reigning Pope and if not the issue remains as knotty as before the Council. During the Schism the Council of Pisa formed without papal endorsement and called the two rival Popes before it. They declined to appear so the council fired both Popes and elected a third to replace them. The work of the council was blessed by neither of the two original principals and thus the third Pope became just another contender for the throne.

Jean: There were several lay persons on the Council but none of them had been elected for the job. Abbots are often elected by the monks they serve but they were not elected as delegates to the Council.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #290 on: September 01, 2009, 02:42:35 AM »
Emily: What is the name of this gutless ancestor of yours who thought more of his precious life than he did about defending his honor against the power of the inquisition. He is a man after my own heart. Life is more important than to waste it defending oneself against trivial concepts made large by advocates of a giant hoax.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #291 on: September 01, 2009, 07:12:00 PM »
Justin, he wrote under the name Jean Bodin, but as with most things French his full name was more descriptive. The name of the book is "Method for the easy comprehension of history" (Methodus ad facilem historiarum).

It was one of his early works, he wrote in Latin, later translated into English. His most important work was "The six books of the commonwealth" (Les six livres de la Republique")

My cousin who has a home in France and spends his summers there sent me the book. It is a smaller book and may be a collection of early essays done before the main translation later. It is not what I wanted for summer reading, but continue on anyway.

Here is a link to Stanford that is too detailed for me right now, but I gave it a look.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bodin/


Emily

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #292 on: September 02, 2009, 09:43:02 PM »
Emily: This ancient relative of yours was a giant of a man. All his books are on the Index of forbidden books. The things he had to say were and are forbidden Catholics to read. He attacked witchcraft and conversation with the devil and is then suspected of being on friendly terms with the dark fellow because he seemed to know so much about the activities of witches and the devil.  He was in his youth a Carmelite monk who having been arrested for heresy is released from his vows. He married in 1552 and again in 1576. He praises Humanism and recommends it to the people of Geneva as worth teaching in their schools.

He serves as council to the French King in 1560 and at the beginning of the French Wars of Religion blames the "true Church" for the war with the Huguenots.

His book the Methodus comes at a time when The Counter Reformation is in full sway. He challenges the Papal Curia in the work and it is not welcome. He declares that the religion of Christ is and has been accessible to all men even those who came before Christ. He argues for a return of Catholicism to the message of Gospels.He argues for Freedom of Conscience and a strong measure of Religious Tolerance. In his view, belief should be voluntary rather than imposed.

The man is a giant and we know so little about him largely because his works, forbidden as they were, were not translated until the twentieth century.  This is just one more example (among many) of the reason a rational  society should reject the notion that any one group has a working relationship with a deity.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #293 on: September 02, 2009, 11:31:15 PM »
Justin, wow, you know much more about this distant relative than I do. He was born almost 500 years ago, and that is beyond my reach. Without the work of my cousin I would not have been aware of him other than his name, which I did know from a family history book. That book did state he was a writer, but when they mentioned he wrote on economic theory among other things, that ended my interest in reading any of his works.

My cousin has been doing research for the last few years and planned to do a biography, but the search is slow and tedious and he is particular about what he accepts, original records only. I did e-mail him about finding the ban on the work of our ancestor in Spain with the name of the author of the article. He has contacted him and set up an appointment to look at the original documents.

Sorry Robbie for getting off track. Perhaps when we get to the French renaissance, I can add something positive.

Emily





Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #294 on: September 03, 2009, 01:39:48 AM »

Emily: You weren't off track.  Jean Bodin was held to account by the Inquisition for his objections to the work of the Papal Curia- a Rome based activity. The Inquisition was a late  Italian Renaissance invention that proved useful during the Counter Reformation. The practice was adopted by Spanish royalty for political control of the Netherlands and Flanders. It reached into France a little later and even reared its ugly head in Louisiana. The Jews were one of the primary targets of the Inquisition and the good fathers just loved those involved in witchcraft- especially the old women who looked like hell.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #295 on: September 04, 2009, 07:45:19 AM »
Emily, throughout the time we have been discussing our five volumes (so far), we have always paused to bring the past and the present together.  And most certainly, a personal touch is not out of line.  A year of so ago we were discussing the possible origin of the name "Iadeluca."  Thanks for adding this human touch. 

Robby

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #296 on: September 05, 2009, 12:07:31 AM »
Yes, and Iadeluca turned out to be Roman and Renaissance as well.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #297 on: September 05, 2009, 12:31:53 AM »
Thank you, Robby.

It is September again, and soon this discussion will have been ongoing for eight years. We are now in the fifth book of this series by Durant. Congratulations to you, Robby! We could not have had a better discussion leader, and we owe you our thanks.

A special thanks to Justin, especially in this book, since his discussion on art opened my eyes to the art world as I had never seen it. I was one of those who 'knew it when I saw it' types who never questioned the complexity of how art changed over the centuries. Justin is our own encyclopedia, not just in art.

Since the ladies were more or less left out of this history, we have all at one time or another complained about this slight. Regardless, I have enjoyed it all. Here's to the ladies of this discussion who kept it interesting over these eight years.

Thanks to Brian for his contributions and links. He keeps us moving. To all the gentlemen who have posted in this discussion, they were all exceptional.

Emily


Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #298 on: September 05, 2009, 07:40:31 PM »
It's hard to believe we have been engaged in this discussion for eight years. The time has just flown by. There have been so many interesting personalities to share our thoughts with over the years that I feel enriched.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #299 on: September 06, 2009, 10:47:40 AM »
I was surprised, too.  Does anyone here have an approximate date?

Robby

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #300 on: September 06, 2009, 11:27:02 AM »
An acquaintance of mine says that when thinking of Ted Kennedy, she thinks of Chappaquidick and that no matter what else he may have done, that event outweights it and he was not a great man.  I pointed out that throughout history many men we consider "great" for one reason or another, raped, murdered, abandoned their families, lied, cheated -- yet were considered "great" because they furthered the cause of civilization.

What are your thoughts?

Robby

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #301 on: September 06, 2009, 12:10:30 PM »
As we continue to read these historical events which seemed to be so important, even world shaking, at the time, looking at them through the lens of passing centuries -- do they really make a difference?  Do they matter?  I have not suddenly become despondent or cynical.  I am just asking.  Read the article below. 

While Europe Sleeps, Bosnia Seethes
By NICHOLAS KULISH
BERLIN

NEARLY 14 years after peace for Bosnia was hammered out in Ohio, the hills rising up around Sarajevo can still lead a visitor to uncomfortable thoughts about sightlines for snipers.

As I stood there in person on a visit back in May with Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., the violence of the ’90s didn’t feel so far away. Mr. Biden barnstormed through the Balkans on Air Force 2, also stopping in Serbia and Kosovo, with the goal of trying to draw flagging attention back to the region, delivering his sternest lecture to the Bosnian Parliament, warning against falling back onto “old patterns and ancient animosities.”

Mr. Biden is not alone in his warnings. In the latest issue of Foreign Affairs, under the headline “The Death of Dayton,” Patrice C. McMahon and Jon Western write that because of ethnic divisions that refuse to heal, widespread corruption and political deadlock, “the country now stands on the brink of collapse” and “unless checked, the current trends toward fragmentation will almost certainly lead to a resumption of violence.”

Whether or not that happens, the peacekeeping force meant to crack down on any outbreaks now has fewer than 2,000 troops. And the American contingent, a promise and a deterrent to those who justifiably doubt the European Union’s resolve if force is needed, has left entirely.

These circumstances might be cause for widespread alarm, if anyone had noticed them in the first place. It didn’t used to be that way. It used to be that you didn’t have to shout to get heard on the subject of Bosnia. The name alone was enough to evoke the rape, torture, burned-out homes and mass graves that marked a three-and-a-half-year war in which roughly 100,000 people were killed, a majority of them Muslims.

But that was a long time ago. For much of the Western world Bosnia is an all-but-forgotten problem, far down the list of priorities after countries like Iraq, Iran and North Korea. As if to drive the point home, the chief architect of the Dayton peace accords in the Clinton administration, Richard C. Holbrooke, now a special envoy in the Obama administration, has his hands full with the war in Afghanistan and the even more complex situation in neighboring, nuclear-armed Pakistan. Mr. Holbrooke has complained in recent years of a “distracted international community.”

If the drift of public attention away from Bosnia is a result of more pressing issues in an age of terrorism and rogue nuclear states, it is also a function of the simple fact that this ethnically divided country finds itself in the middle of a far more united, stable and at times downright boring Europe than in the days of the civil war.

Bosnia could well return to violence, but it has lost a large measure of what might be called its Franz Ferdinand threat. For all of the moral and humanitarian arguments for getting involved in the violent dissolution of Yugoslavia, there was also the severe lesson from Archduke Ferdinand’s assassination in 1914, which provided the spark for World War I. That lesson was simple: conflicts start in the Balkans, but they do not necessarily stay there.

The end of the cold war brought elation but also trepidation. In hindsight, the march of countries like Poland, Hungary and Romania from the Warsaw Pact into NATO and the European Union may appear steady and all but predestined, but the paths of those newly freed countries were anything but certain at the time. Bosnia was a starkly destabilizing factor in a far more unstable continent. The fighting that began in the spring of 1992 was not quite three years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and less than a year after the attempted coup of August 1991 in Russia, and came hard on the heels of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Today, the picture has changed again. Now that Europe is no longer the fault line of a divided world, it looks ever more like a retirement community with good food and an excellent cultural calendar. Spies cut from the George Smiley cloth could really come in from the cold, retiring with legions of their countrymen to the Spanish coast, with no more to worry about than the decline of the pound against the euro and the sinking value of their condos.

The European Union has its share of problems, including a rapidly graying population projected to shrink by 50 million people by 2050 and deep troubles in integrating the immigrants — particularly from Muslim countries — it so drastically needs to reverse the demographic slide. And the union’s energy security depends on its often capricious and at times menacing neighbor to the east, Russia.

Russia’s invasion of Georgia last summer served as a stern reminder that things can still get rough outside of the gated community, and certainly made newer members like Poland and Estonia nervous about the sturdiness of the fence.

Renewed fighting in Bosnia may not launch World War III, but it could well spread to other parts of the former Yugoslavia, including Kosovo. Kosovo declared independence last year, and the United States Embassy in the Serbian capital, Belgrade, burned at the hands of angry rioters. I walked the streets in the aftermath, interviewing Serbs, and found rage, sadness and desperation even among the most pro-Western elements of society.

It was something of a pleasant surprise, then, to return with Mr. Biden this year and find average Serbs on the same streets sounding deeply pragmatic about the visit by an American politician who not only represented the superpower that had bombed them but was personally an early and staunch supporter of Muslims in both Bosnia and Kosovo. While there were holdouts, most said that jobs and freedom to travel trumped old enmities.

With any luck the sentiment will find more traction in neighboring Bosnia too, drowning out the extreme voices and their loose talk of war. Given how far the world’s attention has wandered, supporters of peace in the Balkans will have to hope they find their own path to moderation. Otherwise the crack of snipers’ bullets and the whistle of mortar shells could herald the terrible spectacle of a preventable return to bloodshed.


Robby

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #302 on: September 06, 2009, 12:14:08 PM »
We ARE humans, not saints. When i taught history i made that point often with my students. We should acknowledge the good judgements and the good actions, especially if the actions improved society.  I think we can evaluate the person based on what they do AFTER they have made the bad judgements - how bad was that judgement? What was the "bad" action? Did they revise their behavior and judgements once they have been "outed," and often people need to be outed before they will change, especially in emotional or addictive behaviors.

I believe someone said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I don't believe in "sin," but i agree w/ the principle. .......................jean

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #303 on: September 06, 2009, 05:53:58 PM »
I agree with Jean. There are no saints in this world. We have all screwed up at one time or another in our lives and have paid for the behavior in one way or another. One can not live a perfect life. We pray, as in the Lord's Prayer to have our trespasses forgiven as we forgive those who trespass against us. Those of us who do that either mean it  or fail to recognize the intent of the prayer. I suspect the latter is true in many cases for many prayers tend to become rote and meaningless babble.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #304 on: September 06, 2009, 06:07:24 PM »
Unfortunately, the issue in Bosnia is a religious issue. These issues are deep seated and long standing. In the Middle East it is Sunni vrs. Shi'ite. In Israel it is Muslim vrs. Jew. In Ireland it is Catholic vrs. Protestant. In the Balkans it is Christian vrs. Muslim. In the US these religious sects preach, each and everyone, that their sect is the right way and that all the others are wrong. Little did Abraham realize the trouble he brewed when he agreed to let Superstition  direct his hand. 

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #305 on: September 12, 2009, 05:59:26 PM »
The Council of Pisa met as scheduled.  In the majestic cathedral gathered twenty six cardinals, four patriarchs, twelve archbishops, eighty bishops, eighty seven abbots, the generals of all the great monastic orders, delegates from all major universities, three hundred doctors of canon law, ambassadors from all the governments of Europe except those of Hungary, Naples, Spain, Scandinavia, and Scotland.

 The Council declared itself canonical (valid in Church law) and ecumenical (representing the whole Christian world) - a claim which ignored the Greek and Russian Orthodox Councils.  It summoned Benedict and Gregory to appear before it.  Neither appearing, it declared them deposed and named the Cardinal of Milan as Pope Alexander V (1409).  It instructed the new Pope to call another general council before May, 1412, and adjourned.

It had hoped to end the Schism but as both Benedict and Gregory refused to recognize its authority, the result was that there were now three popes instead of two.  Alexander V did not help matters by dying  (1410).  His cardinals chose as his successor John XXIII, the most unmanageable man to occupy the papal throne since his predecessor of that name.  Baldassare  Cossa had been made papal vicar of Bologna by Boniface IX.  He had governed the city like a condottiere, with absolute and unscrupulous powers.  He had taxed everything, including prostitution, gambling, and usury.  According to his secretary he had seduced two hundred virgins, matrons, widows, and nuns.  But he was a man of precious ability in politics and war.  He had accumulaed great wealth and commanded a force of troops personnaly loyal to him.  Perhaps he could conquer the Papal States from Gregory and reduce Gregory to impecunious submission.


What is that old maxim which says Two (three) heads are better than one?

Robby

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #306 on: September 13, 2009, 02:14:23 AM »
Any Pope who can seduce 200 virgins including nuns successfully probably produced his own army of sons and grand sons. No matter what else he did he had the qualities of a Beowulf, a Gilgamesh, a Paul Bunyan, and a Casanova. Something else must be the cause of his insanity.

bluebird24

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JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #308 on: September 23, 2009, 08:57:08 PM »
Hi, BLUEBIRD. Interesting article.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #309 on: September 24, 2009, 02:20:12 AM »
Hi Bluebird. Nice to have you in here. The article placing Michelangelo, Leonardo, and Raphael at the peak of the Renaissance was very interesting. It is a nice summary of the end of a very long period of Renaissance growth that began with Giotto in painting and with Donatello in sculpture. Actually, signs of the end of the Renaissance are already beginning to appear in  the work of Michelangelo. His sculptured figures have many Mannerist qualities.

We are at the moment struggling through the early conflict in the Church that will lead to the great debate and the counter reformation. We tend to bounce around a little in art by moving in a political chronology and so have not yet talked about Michelangelo nor the Borgias. All that is ahead of us. You come at a good time. Welcome.


Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #310 on: September 29, 2009, 12:09:42 AM »
Robby, you asked when the discussion began, and I looked it up.

In reading the early posts, it seems the decision to have the discussion was put forth in Sept. 2001. The discussion was to start after the holidays late in that year.

The discussion actually began on November 1, 2001. I don't know if there was a 'pre discussion' before that date, but the archives begin on November 1, 2001.

Emily

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #311 on: September 29, 2009, 09:33:38 PM »
So, we'll celebrate our eighth anniversity next month.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #312 on: September 29, 2009, 11:18:55 PM »
Eight years is a long time for old folks with an interest in a single subject to be chatting like this. What can we do to celebrate the event? Any suggestions? 

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #313 on: September 30, 2009, 08:00:40 PM »
How about a "virtual party"? Remember, MAL used to give them in her writers group. We can all comew dressed as a character from our reading.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #314 on: October 01, 2009, 07:15:30 PM »
OK. I will come as the Borgia Pope. Chose your characters, please.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #315 on: October 01, 2009, 07:32:17 PM »
I will come as Will Durant himself, though the only characteristics we share are a white moustache and glasses.

I greatly respect his dedication of 50 years to the writing of the book we are reading, and I love his many quotable sayings -  It is a mistake to think that the past is dead. - which help us to understand from whence he is coming.

Brian

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #316 on: October 01, 2009, 09:18:20 PM »
Well, maybe I'll come as cleopatra.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #317 on: October 03, 2009, 05:41:25 PM »
Joan: If you still have the tush for Cleopatra and my wife lets me I will come as Mark Antony.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #318 on: October 04, 2009, 11:50:39 AM »
I will come as Mohammed who is aghast at the impure things I am hearing.

Robby

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #319 on: October 04, 2009, 06:51:15 PM »
Four at the party is not a party - - - it's barely a game of bridge.

Let's get off our tushes and see if we can get a crowd.

Interesting word that, do you use it a lot, Justin?

If we can get some support for the party I will bring some virtual food and drink.

Brian.