Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371782 times)

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #320 on: October 04, 2009, 08:02:02 PM »
JUSTIN: you're on!!

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #321 on: October 07, 2009, 01:04:00 AM »
Oh! Goody. Now that I am Mark Antony, I must tell you that I am a little jealous of you. You have your snakes to keep you company when you are alone but I must sit and dwell, friendless, on the time I have left.  My sword is my only remaining friend.  I polished off Cicero when I could have let him escape. He was my friend. I was one of the conspirators who managed to stab Caesar. He was my friend too.  Now I have you as a friend up here in this pyramid with nothing to do but play with your snakes. I love you, baby.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #322 on: October 08, 2009, 08:29:15 PM »
Do I detect a little dementia creeping in here?



Robby

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #323 on: October 08, 2009, 10:00:52 PM »
Watch it, Justin. My snakes are very protective of me. I don't want you asped!!

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #324 on: October 09, 2009, 12:42:31 AM »
Oh Fie!! I've been snaked.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #325 on: October 09, 2009, 01:00:23 PM »

Let's not let our "folie à deux" become "folie à plusieurs".

How would it be if we returned to our virtual celebration? - - -
or even, to the reading of my book?

Will Durant.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #326 on: October 10, 2009, 01:50:09 PM »
Sorry, Will.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #327 on: October 10, 2009, 02:59:10 PM »
Now where were we - - -

"The Councils and the Popes" - 1409-18  and discussing the Schism I think - - -

Where do we go from here - - - the virtual party or back to work ?

Either way, I am bringing a celebratory feast for us all to share.  If we don't get some more
contributers, we are going to be somewhat virtually overdistended.

Will.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #328 on: October 10, 2009, 09:59:51 PM »
But we can work it off with virtual exercise, which is a lot easier than the other kind.

ROBBY: has our silliness driven you away? I forgot that you're a stoic!!

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #329 on: October 12, 2009, 01:59:02 AM »
I agree, Brian and Robby has been advertising in various Senior places in the parent organization. We have not attracted any contributors yet but one can have hope. Do you have any suggestions? I have tried by saying challengeable things hoping to attract new voices with a yen to rebut.  No takers yet. There is one thing we can do which we have not yet tried. We have archives that show all people who have been with us in the past as well as their email addresses. We can make a pitch to those folks to come back and to share the load of conversation. 

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #330 on: October 12, 2009, 07:22:35 AM »
Nothing wrong with a virtual party -- but, in the meantime, here is a Renaissance dilemma to solve.

No Fair! Leonardo Got the Good Side of the Room!
By John Tierney


Kalpa Group Project
 
Leonardo Da Vinci began painting “The Battle on Anghiari” in 1505 on the eastern wall of the Hall of 500, near the spot where Maurizio Seracini is standing on the scaffolding. Michelangelo was commissioned to paint another battle mural to the left of Leonardo’s. The wall today is covered with later murals of battles painted by Vasari.

What stopped Michelangelo from even starting the battle mural he was commissioned to do on the same wall as Leonardo Da Vinci’s “Battle of Anghiari”? Before we get to some imaginary dialogue between the two painters (in response to my previous post about the murals), let me give you an answer from Maurizio Seracini, who has been leading the search for the lost Leonardo painting.

He believes the answer may be found in the layout of the hall, which Dr. Seracini has constructed with the help of colleagues at the Center of Interdisciplinary Science for Art, Architecture and Archaeology at the University of California, San Diego, like Falko Kuester, who used lasers to map the current hall to a precision of one millimeter. By studying the current hall and probing beneath the surface with radar and other techniques, they’ve discovered what the hall looked like before its 1563 remodeling.

Dr. Seracini’s work has won praise from scholars like Marco Leona, who leads the science group at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. “In the quest for the lost Leonardo,” Dr. Leona said of Dr. Seracini, “he has been methodical and persistent, and I think he has built his case carefully. The combination of the archival research with the 3D reconstruction of the original architecture is in itself a great result.”

The reconstruction showed that there had been large windows at the end of the room closest to Leonardo’s painting. As he faced the east wall, there would have been light coming from the south wall to his right, which would have been fine for an artist who painted with his left hand, as Leonardo did.

But the arrangement wouldn’t have been so good for Michelangelo, who was supposed to paint a mural on that wall farther from the windows, to the left of Leonardo’s. Like Leonardo, Michelangelo was naturally left-handed, but he had trained himself to use mainly his right hand. So as he worked, his right hand would have cast a shadow on the light coming from the windows to the right. And because his assigned location was farther from the windows, there would have been less overall light for him to work in — and for his painting to be displayed to the public.

Would the great Michelangelo have tolerated getting the crummy side of the wall? “No way,” Dr. Seracini said. “It was an incredible mistake by the Signoria [the Florentine government] to put two of the greatest minds in the same room. Michelangelo would not have wanted the dark side of the room. I can see a lot of problems and a lot of clashing egos.”

One Lab reader, James F Traynor, concisely imagined the dialogue between the two painters:

Mike: You got the light.
Leo: I got here first.
Mike: Jeez, I can’t work under these conditions. See ya.

Another commenter, Ken White, provided a link to his full-length screenplay, “Lions of Florence,” that imagines Leonardo and Michelangelo dueling in the Hall of 500 — initially just with brushes as each works on his mural, but then the competition takes a nastier turn. (Without giving away too much of the plot, I can tell you that they throw plaster and paint at each other.)

Dr. Seracini believes that Vasari, the architect who remodeled the hall and painted his own battle scenes on the wall, preserved Leonardo’s painting by leaving an air gap in front of it. Now Dr. Seracini is trying to establish what’s underneath by using neutrons to probe for the chemicals in Leonardo’s painting (as I describe in my Findings column. If the painting is still there, Dr. Seracini says, Vasari’s fresco could be temporarily removed so that Leonardo’s oil painting could be retrieved.

“There are well-established techniques for removing a fresco without damaging it,” Dr. Seracini said. “Frescos have been moved quite successfully in other situations. It could certainly be done if even a smart portion of Leonardo’s painting is still there. Remember, eyewitnesses said it was the highest achievement of the Renaissance.”

The mayor of Florence, Matteo Renzi, said that if the Leonardo painting is there, he would like to see it displayed to the world as part of a quincentennial celebration planned in 2012 to honor the Florentine explorer Amerigo Vespucci (who died in 1512).

“I hope that we do discover ‘The Battle of Anghiari,’” Mr. Renzi said. “All the signs point to it being under there. And even if it isn’t, at least we can put a full stop on the whole story.”

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #331 on: October 13, 2009, 05:52:04 PM »
That's fascinating!

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #332 on: October 13, 2009, 06:38:25 PM »
Although we cannot see the actual work by Da Vinci (yet) - - -
we can get a good idea of what it might look like, in a copy of the
original made by Rubens : -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Anghiari_(painting)

Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #333 on: October 15, 2009, 07:29:31 PM »
Speculation has been raging for many years about the Anghiari in the Palazzo Del Vecchio. I hope Seracini is right but I fear that what they find will not be a fresco at all but a cartoon. Leonardo worked for a year on the piece and never painted a hand of it. A cartoon is similar to what we a stencil. A drawing is made on paper by puncturing the paper with holes. The paper or cartoon is held up to the wall and pumelled with hand held bags of black charcoal to transfer an outline of the image to the wall. The painting is done on wet plaster a handful at a time.

Leonardo was called away by the Duke of Milan to build war machines which was more important than finishing some old fresco.

Michelangelo did the work on the opposite wall. He chose the battle of Cascina for a subject. The moment depicted shows the Florentine troops bathing nude in the Arno when the enemy appeared on horseback. The nude troops are scrambling into their sox and armor while the battle rages around them on horseback. The Fresco was destroyed and painted over, however Sangallo gave us a grisaille image of the central theme but left off the battle of the horsemen on either side of the men scrambling into their gear. The painting and the cartoon as well served for a few years at least as the basis for a school of Art. That's we came to have the Sangallo. He was a student at that school.

There are other Cartoons by Leonardo extant. There is one in England, I think, at the National Gallery, maybe. The subject is St. Anne and the two children pointing fingers. It's about ten feet high and about six feet wide. It has a corner wall all to itself and little sitting area in front of it. People come to contemplate the images. It has better appointments than the Mona Lisa. 

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #334 on: October 15, 2009, 09:41:49 PM »
Don't you just HATE being caught without your sox in a battle?

Ruebens' painting makes more sense artistically than it does militarily -- everyone in a pile with all the blank space around.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #335 on: October 15, 2009, 10:13:20 PM »
Justin - - - are you saying that Rubens sat down and made a copy
of a cartoon and not of a finished fresco?

Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #336 on: October 16, 2009, 01:03:39 AM »
Yes, Brian, that is exactly what I am saying. Rubens had one other option. There is an engraving of the center section of the work done by Zacchio. Both images would leave him without color to work from and as a result the Rubens piece is in grisaille. There is a good chance that Rubens never saw the work by Leonardo because his depiction is as it appears in Zacchio's work  and not in the Leonardo. Leonardo's fresco contains more than just the three horsemen. There are men on the ground as well armed with shields and swords slugging it out.

The news today brought a new contender for the Leonardo catalogue. It is some work previously thought to be 19th century. We'll see. 

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #337 on: October 16, 2009, 11:06:01 AM »
Quote
There are other Cartoons by Leonardo extant. There is one in England, I think, at
the National Gallery, maybe. The subject is St. Anne and the two children pointing
fingers. It's about ten feet high and about six feet wide. It has a corner wall all to itself and
little sitting area in front of it. People come to contemplate the images. It has better
appointments than the Mona Lisa.  [

In the early 1960s when we were still in Britain, the National Gallery was short of money
and wanted to sell this cartoon to a buyer in America for £800,000 .

The government of the day stepped in and offered £350,000, and asked the public to buy
copies of the cartoon (beautifully rendered on museum quality paper) to come up with the
rest of the money and keep the priceless piece in Britain.

We have one such copy hanging in our house in Canada.

Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #338 on: October 17, 2009, 12:56:37 AM »
So it is at the National gallery. There have been many galleries in my life and at times they all run into one. The works stand out in my mind but the galleries blend. You are very fortunate to have a copy of the Leonardo cartoon. It is a
worthwhile work.


Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #339 on: October 23, 2009, 11:49:17 PM »
Justin - - - do you know Trevor's email address?
We need to get him back to wake us all up.
Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #340 on: October 26, 2009, 12:15:07 AM »
Trevor's address is on his last posting. The archives will have it. He did not come over from Senior net. 
 
 I wonder who among  the lurkers was  previously  an active poster. Will all lurkers please check-in for roll call, please?

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #341 on: October 26, 2009, 05:44:21 PM »
I'm here!

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #342 on: October 26, 2009, 08:14:34 PM »
You're not a lurker Joan - - - you are a history stalwart - - -

what we need is some readers and posters.

Emma, you are the archivist - - - can you rescue some email addresses
from past posters to this discussion group?

It's time we got on the move again.

Brian.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #343 on: October 26, 2009, 10:18:00 PM »
Brian, I have just sent you an e-mail with the last known e-mail address for Trevor. Good luck.

I saw his name on Seniors and Friends and sent him an email with this new address for SOC and asked him to rejoin us some time ago, perhaps you will have more luck. Robby came to S&F and recruited early this year, and gave links to Seniorlearn, as did others.

I have been away on a trip, but will try to rejoin our small group treking through Italy at the moment.

Emily


Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #344 on: October 26, 2009, 11:13:23 PM »
Thanks Emily, I have sent an email to Trevor's last known address.

Any other ideas?

Brian.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #345 on: October 28, 2009, 10:23:59 PM »
In the run up to the big day on Sunday which will complete eight years of discussion of the Story of Civilization, I went looking in the archive for former posters. Many seemed to drop out after Seniornet dissolved, and others had only lasted a short while before moving on.

The archives are hard to read because of the small print, I suppose they compressed the file because there are so many. Robby's heading is easy to read and he began to put it all online on Nov. 1, 2001. He posted guidelines for posters and many questions to start off the discussion. He seems to have finished up on Nov. 2 because the first poster came in on Nov.3rd. Some posted once or twice but a group formed that put up a thousand posts in little over a month.

Here they are as they appeared in sequence.

Nov.3rd....
Jaywalker
Happy Phyllis
Mary W

Nov.4th
Mary de Boer
Jinty
Eileen Tyrrell
Scottybowler
Anne Kerr
Mal
Alf
Patrick Bruyere
Eloise
Snowycurve
Phyll
Tucson Pat
Mary Page
Janette
Kiwi lady
babs NH
Ella Gibbons
StephanieHochuli
gladys
Ila Matter
gaj
wht (Beth)
Ardie
citruscat
dig girl
Barbara St. Aubrey
Bill H
Harold Arnold
tonilee

Nov.5th
3kings (Trevor)
betty gregory
Persian
doy
Annafair

Nov.6th
Hairy
Tigerliley
Lady 6
Tiger Tom
lies

Nov.7th
Carolyn Anderson
Ginny
Louise Evans
Hubert Paul
Bubble
Nelle Vrolyk
Vera Hunter
Ann Alden
Patwest
Jeanne P

Nov.9th
Lady C
Ray Franz

Nov. 10th
Sheilak

Nov. 12th
Jan B

Nov. 14th
Peter Brown
Dawn Tucek
Faith P

Nov. 15th
Agnes
ImCarl

Nov.20th
Justin

I will end here, this is just a list of new posters each day, and they continued to the end of this section. A thousand posts in thirty-five days.

Emily                                 

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #346 on: October 28, 2009, 10:38:33 PM »
Joan K, you have a personal message.

Emily

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #347 on: October 28, 2009, 10:47:57 PM »
That's terrific Emily - - - I recognise many of the names of people who were with Seniornet, and who have moved over with us, and - - - have posted in discussion groups with Seniors and Friends, and also with SeniorLearn.

If they see their names listed here they may be persuaded to join our continuing discussion.

Brian.

ANNIE

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #348 on: October 29, 2009, 11:59:13 AM »
Hello to all here!
Here's a link to one of our proposed discussions which is scheduled for February.

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=75.0

Entitled "America's Prophet-Moses and the American Story," our author, Bruce Feiler,  takes us on a tour of quotes and historical events referring to Moses who seems to be very important in the history of our country.

Do let us know if you will be joining us by posting at this site.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #349 on: October 29, 2009, 02:09:13 PM »
Hello ADOANNIE --- thank you for posting about the February book - - - would you be
kind enough to remind those who post on your site, that we are still open for old posters - - -
(and new ones !) to rejoin (or to join) our ongoing discussion of the History of Civilization?

Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #350 on: October 29, 2009, 04:58:07 PM »
Emily: If you will send me Trevor's last known address I too will write to him.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #351 on: October 29, 2009, 11:07:01 PM »
Justin, I have sent you an e-mail with Trevor's address.

JoanK, Thank you for the reply, all systems are go.

Emily

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #352 on: October 30, 2009, 07:28:07 AM »
Justin and I have been emailing each other.  We agree that the problem of not enough participants began when the conversion occurred.  We DEFINITELY need more participants to bring life back to SofC.

Robby

ANNIE

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #353 on: October 30, 2009, 09:51:43 AM »
Robby and Brian,
What you might want to do is make up a little pep talk about your discussion, copy and paste it, into any other discussion, like, the Non Fiction folder, Read Around the World, The Library, Introduce Yourself,
wherever you want.  If you don't know how to do this, You can go into the Help/Questions folder and ask for them to help with this project.
Make it short and tempting to other posters and leave a link to your site.

The other suggestion I have, is for you to do all this in Senior&Friends.  There are lots of old friends on that site, still talking away.  I have a discussion going on over there, Organic Living, so I see many of our old friends there.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #354 on: October 30, 2009, 11:25:36 AM »
Thanks ADOANNIE for your advice, I'll be in touch with Robbie and see what can be done.

Brian

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #355 on: October 30, 2009, 11:28:28 AM »
More good news - - - Trevor has been contacted, and has replied to emails from Justin and I - - - he is anxious to rejoin us and is on his way.

Brian

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #356 on: October 30, 2009, 03:31:05 PM »
It would seem that the simplest way to learn how to get onto the SeniorLearn site is to click on this URL - - -

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?action=help

it is a very user-friendly area, and if the URL is copied and pasted into an email sent to any who have had difficulties getting to the "new" site of our discussion, it should be of great help to those wishing to rejoin their former SeniorNet friends.

Registering is explained on the first line of HELP.

Brian.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #357 on: October 30, 2009, 05:06:40 PM »
I have e-mailed some posters from the discussion who no longer post, and have posted on Seniors and Friends with a link to the discussion.

JoanK will do the same here on Seniorlearn. We agreed to this a couple of days ago via message. We hope to have some former posters return, and attract some new ones. Since Sunday Nov. 1, 2009 will mark eight years and there was talk of a party, I used that theme in my plea. Everybody loves a party.

If no one comes then Mohammed can pontificate, Cleo and Mark can float down the Nile, and Brian (sorry I have forgotten your choice) but carry on. Since so few women were profiled in history up to this time in SOC, no choices came to mind. I thought about coming as Cecilia Gallerani the teenage mistress of Locovico Sforza. She sat for Leonardo de Vinci for 'Lady with an Ermine'. I would no more hold an Ermine than an Asp, so that was that. Besides Sforza impregnated her and then married Isabella d'Este, so I may have ended up beheaded with that choice before the party got started. So I will choose to be an anonymous 16 year old girl who comments on the situation at hand.

I hope to be here Sunday, but circumstances may intervene. I will do my best to get here.

Emily

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #358 on: October 31, 2009, 12:10:15 AM »
Brian: If you have not already done so I suggest you put # 356 in an email to Trevor.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #359 on: October 31, 2009, 12:11:43 AM »
 Brian: Let's put that instruction out with every pr piece we put out.