Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant (Read 371777 times)

winsummm · « **Reply #440 on:** November 06, 2009, 01:01:46 AM »

"I want to know what were the steps by which
man passed from barbarism to civilization (Voltaire)"

What are our origins?
Where are we now?
Where are we headed?
Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Five (The Renaissance)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."

SAVONAROLA AND THE REPUBLIC

The Prophet
The Statesman
Literature: The Martyr
Architecture and Sculpture: The Republic and the Medici
Art Under the Revolution

In this volume the term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples.

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.

This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Discussion Leader: robby

Ambrogio Calepini gave his name to the early English dictionaries (Calepins). and
predated by a couple of hundred years the later lexicographers extolled here by the
Oxford Dictionary -

http://www.askoxford.com/worldofwords/oed/legendarylexicographers/?view=uk

Wikipedia has a fine picture of a bust of this learned Augustinian monk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrogio_Calepino

thankyou Justin. a good explanation. have you read three cups of tea? that gave me an image of city life in pakistan that is probably typical for the region?

ANNIE · « **Reply #441 on:** November 06, 2009, 07:52:12 AM »

Do you get the feeling that many of these people were still living in tribal fashion? Each city had their own armies. I remember reading about Florence, Naples etc. in "The People of the Book".
Were they civilized inside their own city but not outside?? It does seem that Martin would want his own kin and their similar upbringing brought into his new world in Rome. He would have confidence in how they felt about governing in a "walled city" and what needs to be done to run (or is that rule?) Rome. Its important to be able to plan with folks who are on the same page as you are.

JoanK · « **Reply #442 on:** November 06, 2009, 03:05:19 PM »

PatH and I are the Washington natives: so we have to stick up for our hometown. Washington has the same inner city slums that most big cities have: possibly less than many. There was a brief period when it was overrun by cocaine dealers, but that has been gotten more in control. But given that, it is not pretty slummy. And it is a center for arts and music with many art galleries and concerts -- not an historical center like Florence, but there is probably more such activity there than any American city except New York.

And the people are a lot more civilized than in New York. Having lived in both places, I'm here to tell you, there is a world of difference in the manners and civility with which people treat each other. Example: when I moved from Washington to New York. I went to a nearby lunch counter. With my Washington manners, I asked: "Can you fix me a hamberger?' The New YUorker behind the counter answered "WHAT DO YOU MEAN, CAN I FIX YOU A HAMBERGER! I OWN THIS JOINT--I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT!!"

winsummm · « **Reply #443 on:** November 06, 2009, 03:20:19 PM »

for the DC folks. sorrrrry

New York felt unfriendly to me when I went to visit my daughter and went to the stores with her. Here people meet your eyes and return smiles and often will just ssay HI as they go bye so the isolated world of people in new york was noticeable to me. I think though that it is known for that.

when my tall son 6-4 went there to live he clued me in on it because he was living across the river in New Jersy in a low cost area and as such could be perceived by some as a target we discussed it. . .no eye contack no talk and move fast as on business.

He's a friendly california person. it wasn't easy for h im to remember that.
I wonder how people in Rome etc. acted in public as normal citizens. . .i.e ee contact, or be guarded against thieves etc. when in rome do as the romans do the old saying. but how did the romans do? then and now.

Justin · « **Reply #444 on:** November 07, 2009, 12:33:20 AM »

Yes, New Yorkers are essentially existential. Riding the subways, hanging onto straps, riding in elevators, crushed up against another person, one does not look at that person but rather looks past the person. To do otherwise is considered an invasion of privacy. The daily newspaper is the subway riders best friend. It gives the rider a place to focus one's eyes. No one wishes to be challenged with ,"Who you lookin' at mister? That's embarrassing, so folks avoid that kind of encounter. Next door neighbors in apartment houses often do not know one another. New Yorkers are selective in choosing friends. It is not a casual activity brought on by proximity. No where else in the world are folks so concerned that they fail to nod to passersby or say hello and smile in casual encounters.

How do I know this? I was born and raised in Manhattan. I did undergraduate and graduate work in the city and worked there till my fortieth year. I love the city and sometimes I think I miss it enough to return for a final stay. It was the city of my youth and we all seem to think we can recapture the charm of early life by moving back. The truth is I also like saying hello to neighbors and relying upon them to look after me as well as mine do. Herein lies the dilemma of age.

Robby · « **Reply #445 on:** November 07, 2009, 09:41:40 AM »

I am hoping that each of you are trying to recruit at least one more person to enter our discussion. As I have been saying for years, I am only the steering wheel. You folks are the motor which makes us move.

Robby

winsummm · « **Reply #446 on:** November 07, 2009, 01:13:10 PM »

a stable populaltion here is not something you can count on Robby. I have a Kindle going with several books on the home screen, twenty two, currently the Boleyn inheritance half way through with Ann of Cleves alone in Richmond Castle and coming in here to help is fine and when the discussion reflects the art of the times but the court scene is a terrible way of life. Ann has just excaped with her life by lying about her freedom o marry, so Henry can marry his little treenage flirt.
what interests me is the ongoing shsifts of power within it and the careful attempts of women to manipulate it with clothing an sideway glances.

the author has her doctorate in English history and it shows here. . .a much better writer than our WD I'm afraid although covering some of the same territory.
that is Philippa Gregory.
Justin When I visited New York my laura with her baby and her riend and I, already lame did some galleryis and museums an;yway and I loved it in Soho. . s[elling. My finish friend Jan Sand misses his Brooklyn,the way it was. I thought Laguna Beach would be the same as it was when I was thirteen and loved it but it isn't and the art is sentimental and boring.

nothing stays the same,, nor do we. now off to the cooling coffee.

claire

Eloise · « **Reply #447 on:** November 07, 2009, 02:02:27 PM »

I started with SOC at the beginning 8 years ago and I used to enjoy it very much, but I needed a change and I am more tired of Durant’s style than of the history he writes about which remains interesting as we can easily see that we are all making the same mistakes as the ancient people used to make, such is human nature.

I hope that new participants will continue having as much fun with the 6 remaining volumes as we used to have when there were from 20 to 40 posts each day making the discussion very lively where everyone freely expressed their feelings and opinions openly and if one person didn't agree with another, it was all washed away quickly leaving no hard feelings as the discussion was swamped by posts piling up one behind another stating issues that needed immediate response. Those were the good old days.

I wish you all good luck and God bless you .

PatH · « **Reply #448 on:** November 07, 2009, 02:20:36 PM »

What? My home town slummy? Claire, surely you jest. Actually, you're right about the schools. When I was growing up, DC was a cultural backwater, but that has changed. We certainly meet Justin's 4 criteria. We are as economically viable and safe or free from attack as any large city. We have a very good arts scene--excellent music, decent theater, good art galleries, and we have 3 first-class universities plus a number of others. We're not New York, but we're not bad either.

Robby · « **Reply #449 on:** November 07, 2009, 05:21:27 PM »

Good to hear from you, Eloise!! I hope you are doing well.

Robby

JoanK · « **Reply #450 on:** November 07, 2009, 09:01:47 PM »

I'm getting curious. What does Martin do when he gets to run-down Rome?

Justin · « **Reply #451 on:** November 08, 2009, 01:07:16 AM »

Eloise: I hope all is well in Montreal and that you are still as active as you used to be. I have missed you in here and I know others have as well. Come back and tell us what is wrong with Durant's writing style and interpretation of history.

Justin · « **Reply #452 on:** November 08, 2009, 01:28:22 AM »

I'm glad you asked that question, Joan, because Martin really took hold. He attacked the highway robbers in their nest and beheaded the bunch. He quickly realized that the Church needed reform but more importantly it needed money. He got it by selling church offices and charging ecclesiastical fees to the French and the Germans who resented those Italians robbing their purses. Simony was one of the objectionable characteristics of the Church that led to the Reformation. We are in the very early stages of the unrest that culminates in the Reformation. It was in Germany that the fire was eventually lit.

winsummm · « **Reply #453 on:** November 08, 2009, 12:07:49 PM »

Quote

what is wrong with Durant's writing style and interpretation of history.

Eloise has it right along with many others. so I'll join in. style is spotty with poet bits that are nice and great leaps in logic etc and history and place. Scolarly historians object to his making things up himself when he lacks information. but this is a gret group why not study the history of the times in the general literature. novels are good too if we'r going to have it presented creeatively.

sorry eloise for poppin but this is an old issue with me. . .

Justin · « **Reply #454 on:** November 08, 2009, 06:43:22 PM »

I think Claire's objections to the Durants are one of the reasons we are all in here discussing these books.

The books represent a view of history that one can comfortably take issue with. The source material is often limited and the Durants try to make the most of it. They give us a continuous story for several millenniums. Is the work of the Durants a combination of fiction and fact? That's a tough question. Any historian worth his salt strives to make a readable story based on fact. It is the novelist who gives us a blend.

My own particular area of specialization is medieval Europe- ranging from the reign of Justinian to the Schism -a period of approximately a millennium. When we went through that period I had little quarrel with the Durant's presentation. There were little things of course, in which I saw he had some choice and I might have gone in another direction. When we went through those volumes, I raised those issues and we all talked about them. It is difficult, I think, even among scholars of the various periods, to say, " here one is reaching and adding to fill in unknown material and there one is factual." One must go back to the particular sources and dig out the material, reexamine it and then read the secondary sources and see how others have treated the issue. Finally, one can make a judgement about the liberties taken by one historian as opposed to another.

I think it's very healthy, mentally, that we take issue with what our historian says. That's the essence of what we are all about here in this discussion. If it were not so there would be little to discuss other than the event itself.

Brian · « **Reply #455 on:** November 08, 2009, 07:57:45 PM »

Justin - - - thank you for your last post. It underlines the reason which justifies my decision to read the book with the rest of you. As I have said before, and will probably say again, I am enjoying learning about the past. Let us keep it up, although I can't promise to be around by the time we get to the end.

Brian.

JoanK · « **Reply #456 on:** November 08, 2009, 08:24:29 PM »

BRIAN: none of us can promise that, but we'll try our best.

Justin · « **Reply #457 on:** November 08, 2009, 11:26:05 PM »

There is a new book out called the "The Past Lasts" or some similar title. It deals with the Missisippi and Alabama mentality in race relations. Some Mississippi folk think it is wrong to stir up all that stuff again but others see it as an opportunity to review past sins and to learn from the errors of one's fathers. There are isolated backwoods towns in Mississippi where the folk have not yet been repatriated and we should have one more crack at reaching them on a civilized level. Only a revisit to historical material can give people an opportunity the reevaluate their attitudes and to discover the importance of social acceptance.

Justin · « **Reply #458 on:** November 08, 2009, 11:44:45 PM »

This is a time when the problems of the papacy were more governmental than religious and Martin well recognized that condition. He issued bulls reforming the Curia in procedure and in financial matters but when the Pope dies a new Pope takes up the keys and very often puts less emphasis on the reforms of his predecessor. Martin's Bull were deemphasized and the Curia returned to its old ways. I suppose it was all for the best for simony led to the reformation and in many ways the reformation was a good thing for society. It broke up a power base that had a strangle hold on society.

The power of the papacy remains strong today in third world countries. One can see its influence operating in the US. In order for the House of Representatives to reach the 220 votes needed to pass the Health bill The speaker had to compromise on abortion constrictions. Clearly, the power of the papacy over some congressmen was quite strong. So we are not dealing with some irrelevant piece of history here. We are dealing with the first major challenge to Papal authority.

Justin · « **Reply #459 on:** November 08, 2009, 11:46:29 PM »

Where is Trevor?

Brian · « **Reply #460 on:** November 08, 2009, 11:58:57 PM »

Justin - - - I am still in email contact with Trevor, and he still says he is having problems getting through to us. He says "I really would like to join", but so far I cannot see what his problem really is. I have sent him a couple of emails and received a couple of replies.

Brian.

winsummm · « **Reply #461 on:** November 09, 2009, 08:29:48 AM »

trevor isn't the only one not getting into this discussion. Jan Sand can't either. he's in Finland so maybe that has something to do with it but seems to not have troube elsewhere.

Emily · « **Reply #462 on:** November 09, 2009, 09:26:14 PM »

The discussion of non-fiction history is more difficult for many people, than fiction. It has been my observation that more often than not, many prefer their history written as historical fiction. Many times that 'fiction' gets quoted as fact.

Today with so many books being published, we have the phenomenon of propaganda as history. There are facts and then there are damn facts, and one can spin it six ways to Sunday, but the fact still remains.

I have defended Durant before and will again. He was not writing about current history, but ancient history. He used whatever record was available to him from the era in which he wrote. He read many of these records and writings in the original Latin or Greek. I always check the biblography in any book I am reading, and Durant lists all his sources. When he began this history in the Thirties some of the sources we have today was not available to him.

Do we know more today than we did in 1930? Of course. Archives have been opened, books have been translated that were not available to Durant. An example, did the Inquisition in Spain happen? Yes, it did. Did the number of people put to death that was reported at the time happen? No, it did not. We now know the numbers were exaggerated during and after the event. Spain kept the records buried until recently, but released them to historians who have written with new information.

Durant gave his sources (books-documents), and wrote about exaggerations when he felt it necessary then let the reader decide its veracity.

Emily

Justin · « **Reply #463 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:14:32 AM »

Well said, Emily.

ANNIE · « **Reply #464 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:00:41 AM »

Yes, Emily, your explanation is well presented. Not having the book, I depend on Robby for the story. I think that I should take a look at the books for the info that you gave here.

Robby · « **Reply #465 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:36:11 AM »

An excellent post, Emily. I have done a considerable amount of writing over the years. In my day I was a newspaper reporter, director of public relations for a state education department, and currently write a monthly article for a local magazine telling of my varying life's experiences. This requires looking into my memory bank and I have to work hard towrite about what I believe actually happened and not what I "thought" happened or wanted to have happen. Durant did much traveling and much research and wrote (I believe) in what he believed was an objective manner.

Robby

PatH · « **Reply #466 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:25:25 AM »

Quote from: Emily on November 09, 2009, 09:26:14 PM

It has been my observation that more often than not, many prefer their history written as historical fiction. Many times that 'fiction' gets quoted as fact.

That's exactly why I don't read much historical fiction. It's too easy to get mixed up as to what's real.

winsummm · « **Reply #467 on:** November 10, 2009, 08:39:18 PM »

historical fiction works for me and actual history does too when is written like a novel. Currently two non fiction books on the Financial collapse interest me whereas they wouldn't ex crept for the approach to show us the characters and even dialogue so as to understand CDS or credit default swaps. . .the basis of the problem in particular and financial products with no real basis other than paper trading and making points with huge bonuses.
The fictional account of the Boleyn inheritance deals with just that. . .lands and money as gifts from the king when he is pleased to his favorites which can change at any time. I see the connection politically any way although we don't cut of heads to make the point. He will drum up charges against the owner, hanging or decapitating him and even women, so as to accumulate this property which can then be given to others.

ANNIE · « **Reply #468 on:** November 11, 2009, 06:51:38 AM »

Lest we forget: http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/taps.html

We are getting ready to attend the Vets Day celebration at the elementary school where two of our grandchildren attend. They have added a new feature, coffee and donuts before the ceremonies. Ralph didn't expect to be here this day so its a double celebration for him. He's a Vet and he's alive!! Thanks to many prayers from all of you and a heart pump. Wow!!

Emily · « **Reply #469 on:** November 14, 2009, 10:41:32 PM »

Quote

Martin V.......When at last he reached Rome (1420), he was shocked by the condition of the city, by the delapidation of the buildings and the people.

The words 'delapidation of the buildings and the people', caught my attention. It is easy to see how buildings can fall into disuse and be robbed of material for other uses, but do people also become 'delapidated'.

I remembered a photograph in a book done by Peter Jennings on the Twentieth Century that my granddaughter had given me. In the photo a woman is sitting on the sidewalk in a dining chair with a baby on her lap and several barefoot children around her. Also on the sidewalk are their belongings. Two chairs, a bed frame, a chest, and a few boxes.

The caption said this photograph was shot on the streets of New York City during the great depression. The woman and her children had been evicted from the tenement where they lived. The husband was off trying to find work in the city.

The apartments looked rather delapidated, but the evictees were relatively young, with several children. Their look at the camera though showed them to be dejected and rather threadbare. They had just moved down the economic ladder a notch, and it showed.

This is just a snapshot in time, made by a photographer who saw a situation and captured it for his paper. No real information on the people other than the fact they had been evicted and were now in the street.

How much worse it must have been in Rome, who had been under the gun for almost a thousand years by then, with only short periods of relief.

I also just read an article on the Roman roads in the south of France, or what was left of them. Over the years the stone had been removed in long stretches for other uses. A Stele found with an inscription was still standing, but overgrown with brush and brambles.

After a while its, patch, patch, patch, whether human, road, or building.

Emily

Robby · « **Reply #470 on:** November 15, 2009, 11:53:05 AM »

Continuing "Triumph of the Papacy."

"Martin V. faced these difficulties with courage and success. Though he had inherited an almost empty treasury, he allotted funds for the partial rebuilding of his capital.. His energetic measures drove the brigands from the roads and Rome. He destroyed a robber stronghold at Montelipo, and had its leaders beheaded. He restored order in Rome and codified its communal law. He appointed one of the earlyu humanists, Poggio Bracciolini, to be a papal secretary. He engaged Gentile da Fabriano, Antonio Pisanello, and Masaccio to paint frescoes in Santa Maria Maggiore and St. Johnin the lateran.

"He recognized men of intellect and character, like Giuliano Cesarini, Louis Allemand, Domenico Capranoica, and Prospero Colonna, to the college of cardinals. He reorganized the Curia to effective functioning but found no way to finance it except by selling offices and services.

"Since the Church had survived for a century without reform but could hardly survive a week without money, Martin judged money to be more urgently needed than reform. Pursuant to the Frequent decree of Constance, he called a council to meet at Pavia in 1423. It was spasely attended. Plague compelled its transference to Siena. When it proposed to assume absolute authority Martin ordered it to dissolve qand the bishops, fearing for their sees, obeyed. To soothe the spirit of reform Martin issued a bull detailing some admirable changes in the procedure and financing of the Curia.

But a thousand obstacles and objections arose, and the proposals faded in the quick oblivion of time."

Like Martin, do we today judge money more important than reform?

Robby

JoanK · « **Reply #471 on:** November 15, 2009, 07:56:18 PM »

Throughout this history, financing and how it was done, has reared its head periodically as a major problem. In view of the recent financial troubles in this country, I wish Durant had told us more about it as we went along.

It seemed to me when we read about ancient Rome, that there was something really wrong with the financial structure. The heavy load of debt of ordinary people was mentioned every time there was an uprising, and every new Emporor had to promise to forgive debt. I suspect eventually the only way people could get out of debt was to kill the Emporor, and get a new one.

Now we see the Pope's actions determined by financing. Was he paying for the overspending of others? Had the Papacy become too expensive to maintain? We'll see if/when it becomes financially viable.

Frybabe · « **Reply #472 on:** November 15, 2009, 08:09:50 PM »

I might be a little sarcastic here, but it seems to me that every time someone reforms something it costs the little guy more one way or the other.

JoanK · « **Reply #473 on:** November 15, 2009, 08:17:10 PM »

You may be right.

Emily · « **Reply #474 on:** November 15, 2009, 11:21:26 PM »

The selling of offices and services had long been a complaint from the churchgoer. It seems that Martin did try to get better representatives for the Church, but too many had already spoiled that stew, and once an idea takes hold, it can be hard to suppress.

Little grievances pile up, and who knows where or when they will spill over into full fledged protests and outright rebellion.

Emily

so P bubble · « **Reply #475 on:** November 16, 2009, 12:29:09 PM »

Hello Robby and all.
Good to see Story of Civilization alive and challenging our thoughts and understanding of past and present.
It is hard not to be all under the same roof, but I'll try to remember and visit more often here, get new perspectives on things.

As Robby said earlier, it is hard to write about the past and remain objective of what was, not coloring it with what we wished for then or now.
I realized that yesterday in the Writers' Nook when I remembered the 6-Days War. Today I surely would not see that so enthusiastically.
So Durant really did well IMHO

JoanK · « **Reply #476 on:** November 16, 2009, 03:10:53 PM »

Hey, BUBBLE. Good to see you back. Did you lose your smerf picture on the way?

so P bubble · « **Reply #477 on:** November 16, 2009, 03:26:48 PM »

Ha ha ha no I did not but it seems noone has here?

Robby · « **Reply #478 on:** November 16, 2009, 08:32:43 PM »

Bubble! So good to see you again! Please stay with us and liven us up even more.

Robby

so P bubble · « **Reply #479 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:39:11 AM »

I'll try. First I have to get the "feel" of things. I have been away for long... I read the resumé at the top but it is still too dry.

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Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant (Read 371777 times)