Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 368133 times)

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #840 on: March 02, 2010, 11:47:56 PM »
I think of love making in public is embarrasing for all of us onlookers. I'd look away whatever the gender mix. Privacy is the issue with me. It depends on how far the lovers take it to be acceptable for public display.

I've know gay women who came after me and immediately with drew when they found that this exotic artist person was straight. And others who simply ignored me as a social contact. One was one of my room mates, a delightful young fellow who very cheerfully included me in his brunches where all of his gay friends pretended I didn't exist. it works both ways.
thimk

mrssherlock

  • Posts: 2007
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #841 on: March 03, 2010, 12:00:41 PM »
Claire:  I've been missing you in the fiction discussions so went looking for you and found you here.  How are ya?  I guess I'll hang out here so I can keep up with you.  It looks like I've been missing a really entertaining discussion, too.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #842 on: March 03, 2010, 08:07:25 PM »
Yes, Jackie.  You have been missing an entertaining discussion.  But you are most welcome.  Feel free to drop in with remarks whenever you wish.  Actually this discussion has been going on for about 6-7 years.  We are in the fifth volume of Durant's "Story of Civilization."

Robby

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #843 on: March 03, 2010, 08:22:45 PM »
Oh! Trevor, you have come upon it. The language loses some of it's distinctive sparkle when words are subsumed for special use. Words like "parochial," "gay," hot," "cool," and many others become too specialized for general use by the adoption process you describe.   Wordsworth had a less adulterated general vocabulary than we have available. He was fortunate.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #844 on: March 03, 2010, 09:34:47 PM »
JACKIE: WELCOME!!

Now back to Rome.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #845 on: March 04, 2010, 06:58:41 AM »
Durant continues.

Even in Rome some disaffection troubled the new prosperity.

 Nicholas’ government of the city was enlightened and just from his point of view. And he had made a concession to republican hopes by nominating four citizens who were to appoint all municipal officials and control all taxes levied in the city.  But the senators and nobles whose class had ruled Rome during the Avignon papacy and the Schism fretted under the papal government and the populace resented the transformation of the Vatican into a palace fortress secure against such assaults as had driven Eugenius from Rome.

 The republican ideas preached by Arnold of the Brescia and Cola di Rienzo still agitated many minds.  In the year of Nicholas’ accession a leading burgher, Stefano Porcaro, made a fiery speech demanding the restoration of self government.  Nicholas sent him into comfortable exile as podesta of Anagni but Porcaro found his way back to the capital and raised the cry of liberty before an excited carnival crowd.  Nicholas banished him to Bologna but left him full freedom except for the necessity of daily showing himself to the papal legate there.

 Nevertheless the undiscourageable Stefano managed from Bologna to organize a complicated plot among three hundred of his followers in Rome.  On the feast of the Epiphany, while the Pope and the cardinals were at Mass in St. Peters, an attack was to be made on the Vatican, its treasury was to be seized to provide funds for establishing a republic, and Nicholas himself was to be taken prisoner.  Porcaro secretly left Bologna and joined the conspirators on the eve of the planned attack.  But his absence from Bologna was noted and a courier brought warning to the Vatican.  Stefano was traced, found and imprisoned, and on January 9, 1453 he was beheaded in Sant’ Angelo.

 The republicans denounced the execution as murder.  The humanists condemned the plot as monstrous infidelity to a benevolent pope.,


Any resemblance to our American Revolution?

Robby

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #846 on: March 04, 2010, 01:58:47 PM »
Jackie: I did e-mail you a couple of ties but the address has too may dots in it. I think I fixed it let me know.  Robbie the BOOKEIS  are very  interesting too,especially in the LIBRARY discussion which covers a wide area of subjects. Have a look some time.
 I get my reading lists from there and am now in E.L. Doctorow and a short story collection called SWEET LAND STORIES.  It is time for me to leave this one for a bit since I a short on history and especially that of Rome.  my son likes it though when he has time.I've tried to point him here but . . . he just turned 57 so qualifies
thimk

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #847 on: March 04, 2010, 01:59:13 PM »
Nicholas sent him into comfortable exile

Nicholas banished him to Bologna but left him full freedom except for the necessity of daily showing himself to the papal legate there.


I was thinking while reading those two quotes that i'm liking this Nicholas guy more and more, but then reading to the end, of course, we see why Dick Cheney wanted Guantonomo opened...............too bad.

The republicans denounced the execution as murder.  The humanists condemned the plot as monstrous infidelity to a benevolent pope. ...............the more things change, the more they stay the same............uh?.......c'est la vie...................jean

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #848 on: March 06, 2010, 04:23:19 PM »
From Durant

"Nicholas' government of the city was enlightened and just from his point of view."

"by nominating four citizens who were to appoint all municipal officials and control all taxes levied in the city."

I had no sooner read Durant's first lines when I connected it to a recent news story, and again see a connection between then and now. Nicholas would have nominated someone in the Vatican circle of influence. He had already built palaces for the 'well connected', so it stands to reason his appointments were to the 'well connected'.

The people had over the centuries seen the results of the Vatican to the 'well connected' and the havoc they spread through their wars and taxes.

Stefano Porcaro wanted self government restored. A republic not a theocracy. The Pope begged to differ and had him beheaded.

It does relate to Washington and King George. In the founding of a Republic in the USA, Washington put his head on the line to fight for it, and if he had not succeeded, King George might have had his head and we would not be a republic today.

In Nicholas' day, the government and the church were one through pal-ocracy. Those connections are still evident today from a news report from Rome via Reuters. An excerpt from the article........Prostitution ring run from inside Vatican

Quote
Rome....."Among four people arrested last month in the corruption probe was Angelo Balducci, and engineer who is a board member of Italy's public works department and a construction consultant to the Vatican. Balducci was arrested on corruption charges and allegations of prostitution emerged only later." (from wiretaps connected to the corruption charges)

Balducci is a member of an elite group called "Gentlemen of his Holiness" who serve in Vatican Apostolic Palace on major occasions such as when the Pope receives heads of State or presides at big events."

Another example of how the Vatican and the 'well connected' join together in Rome. Lucky for Nicholas there were no phones to tap in his day, but it would have been interesting to hear how he 'selected' the 'four' who held power over Rome, and who they were and their connections.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2010/03/04/13106366-reuters.html

Emily

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #849 on: March 06, 2010, 05:18:35 PM »
Pal-ocracy, I like that term Emily.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #850 on: March 06, 2010, 07:13:10 PM »
Thank you Frybabe. I just make them up to fit the occasion. It usually gets the message across without a long drawn out description.

Good to see you posting here.

Emily

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #851 on: March 08, 2010, 07:26:05 AM »
Nicholas was shaken and changed by the discovery that a large section of the citizenry looked upon h im as a despot, however benevolent.

Harrowed with suspicion, embittered by resentment, tortured by gout, he aged rapidly.  When news came to him that the Turks had entered Constantinople over the corpses of 50,000 Christians, and had turned St. Sophia into a mosque, all the glory of his pontificate seemed a fitful vanity.

 He appealed to the European powers to join in a crusade to recapture the fallen citadel of Eastern Christianity .  He called for a tenth of all the revenue of Western Europe to finance the effort, and pledged a tenth of papal, Curial, and other ecclesiastical revenues, and all war between Christian nations was to cease on pain of excommunication.

 Europe hardly listened.  People complained that money raised by previous popes for crusades had been used for other purposes.  Venice preferred a commercial entente with the Turks.  Milan took advantage of Venetian difficulties by retaking Brescia.  Florence looked with satisfaction on Venice’s loss of Eastern trade.  Nicholas bowed to reality and the lust of life cooled in his veins.  Worn out with futile diplomacy, and punished for the sins of his predecessors, he died in 1455j at the age of fifty eight.

He had reached peace within the Church, he had restored order and splendor to Rome, he had founded the greatest of libraries, he had reconciled the Church and Renaissance.  He had kept his hands free from war, had avoided nepotism, had struggled to turn Italy from suicidal strife.  Amid unprecedented revenues he himself had led a simple life, loving the Church and his books, and extravagant only in his gifts.  A grieving chronicler expressed the feeling Italy when he described the scholar Pope as “wise, just, benevolent, gracious, peaceable, affectionate, charitable, humble . . . endowed with every virtue.”

It was the verdict of love, and Porcero might have demurred.  But we may let it stand.


Is it indeed, true, that bad things happen to good people?

Robby

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #852 on: March 08, 2010, 07:54:16 PM »
" Nicholas bowed to reality and the lust of life cooled in his veins. "

Was his life futile, as he seemed to feel? We'd probably have to say no.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #853 on: March 09, 2010, 02:18:54 PM »
“wise, just, benevolent, gracious, peaceable, affectionate, charitable, humble . . . endowed with every virtue.”


WoW! Have they made any more of him, or has the mold been broken? .....................I wouldn't call his life futile, but isn't it interesting how we can hone in on a piece of criticism about ourselves and feel diminished and angry about it and allow it to overwhelm the positive, even in our own minds. Or, to feel anger that others seem to be focusing only on the negative and ungrateful of all the other things we've done. It reminds me of Lyndon Johnson being so depressed about the anti-war demonstrators, or that the Civil Rights people didn't appreciate his getting the CR Bill passed. I think that depression took many yrs from his life.

I have a friend who did a remarkable job of saving an historical piece of property almost single-handedly and organized an institute to keep the history in front of people, but the "new" (read younger) staff and board members have largely ignored her in the last decade, in fact, i think they are intimidated by her energy and expertise and act as tho she is "meddling" when she tries to give them advice. She has become bitter and depressed about their behavior and has taken herself out of any activity of the organization. ................. it's sad from both sides of that perspective. ................ altho i think the behaviors are naturally occuring cycles of organizations and history.

I'm so glad to have learned about this man.................jean

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #854 on: March 09, 2010, 06:30:51 PM »
Trials and tribulations of another Pope.

Vatican on Defense as Sex Scandals Build
By RACHEL DONADIO and NICHOLAS KULISH
ROME — Defending itself against a growing child sex abuse scandal in Europe, one that has even come close to the brother of Pope Benedict XVI, the Vatican said Tuesday that local European churches had “acted swiftly and decisively” to address the issue.

In a note read on Vatican Radio, the Vatican spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, also cautioned against limiting the concerns over child sex abuse to Catholic institutions, noting that it also affected the broader society. The comment comes amid a wave of church sex abuse scandals to emerge in recent weeks in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands, adding to the fallout from a broad abuse investigation in Ireland.

In his note, Father Lombardi said that local churches had demonstrated “a will for transparency, in a certain sense accelerating how the problem had been brought to light, inviting victims to come forward, even regarding cases from a long time ago,” he said.

He noted that in Austria, 17 abuse cases were found in Catholic institutions, while in the same period 510 abuse cases were found “in other environments.” “That should also concern us,” he said.

The newly emerging scandals, particularly those in Germany, cut particularly close to Benedict, who was archbishop of Munich from 1977 to 1982, before spending more than two decades as the head of the Vatican’s doctrinal arm, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is ultimately responsible for investigating abuse cases. Benedict’s moral standing in Germany had already been diminished in some eyes by his outreach to a schismatic bishop, who, it emerged, had denied the scope of the Holocaust.

The connection to Benedict’s brother, Monsignor Georg Ratzinger, comes from accusations of physical and sexual abuse from former students at two Bavarian boarding schools connected to a choir he directed from 1964 to 1994, leading to questions about whether he could have known about the abuse.

According to a statement by the diocese in Regensburg, one former student said he was “abused through excessive beatings and humiliations, and molested through touching in the genital area” during a period described as “the early 1960s.” And the German magazine Spiegel reported this week on accusations involving one of the schools, quoting a former student, Franz Wittenbrink, as saying the Etterzhausen boarding school had an “elaborate system of sadistic punishments combined with sexual lust,” and that a priest masturbated with pupils in his apartment.

“I find it inexplicable that the pope’s brother, Georg Ratzinger, who had been cathedral choirmaster since 1964, apparently knew nothing about it,” Mr. Wittenbrink told the magazine, adding that a fellow student had committed suicide shortly before graduation.

Monsignor Ratzinger, 86, said in an interview this week with a Bavarian daily that the sexual accusations refer to a period before his tenure. But he apologized for slapping students before corporal punishment was outlawed in Bavaria in 1980.

“In the beginning I also slapped people in the face, but I always had a bad conscience about it,” he told the daily, Passauer Neue Presse, adding that if he had known about excessive corporal punishment, “I would have said something.”

“The problem of sexual abuse was never raised,” Monsignor Ratzinger said. “I believe it wasn’t just the church that remained silent. It was also clearly the society.”

In Germany, new cases continue to come to light in the wake of abuse accusations made public in January involving students at the prestigious Canisius Jesuit high school in Berlin in the 1970s and 1980s.

In Austria, Bruno Becker, the head of a Salzburg monastery, resigned Monday after admitting that while studying to be a priest he had sexually abused a boy more than 40 years ago. Last week, the Catholic hierarchy in the Netherlands announced it would open an investigation after former pupils at a monastery school told the Dutch media about systematic sex abuse in the 1960s.

In December, several Irish bishops resigned after a report by the Irish government detailed the physical, sexual and emotional abuse of children by Catholic priests in church-run residential schools.

In his note on Tuesday, Father Lombardi said that the church had made a good start in addressing the “very serious issue” of sexual abuse of minors, investigating the accusations and showing concern for the victims.

He added that “errors committed by institutions and members of the church are particularly reprehensible given the church’s educational and moral responsibility.”

Father Lombardi noted that Benedict had “shown his participation” in tackling the issue by meeting with Irish bishops at the Vatican last month and was preparing an open letter to Irish bishops on the abuse scandal. Vatican sources said the letter could appear as soon as next week. On Friday, the pope is expected to meet at the Vatican with Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, the head of the German Bishops Conference. A spokesman for the archbishop said that the abuse cases would be on the agenda.

Father Lombardi also defended the church’s “distinct” internal procedures for handling abuse cases, noting that Canon Law did not impose fines or detention but “prohibits the exercise of ministry” and allows for the “loss of ecclesiastical rights.” Under Canon Law, he said, child sex abuse “has always been considered one of the most serious of acts.”

A day earlier, Germany’s justice minister, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, criticized the church over mounting a “wall of silence” in abuse cases for proceeding with internal investigations before involving law enforcement. In an interview, she said prosecutors should be brought in as soon as possible.”

There is also discussion over whether to extend the statute of limitations in molestation cases, which currently expires 10 years after the accuser turns 18. The Archbishop of Bamberg, Ludwig Schick, came out Tuesday in favor of prolonging the statute of limitations to at least 30 years.

Kristina Schröder, Germany’s federal family minister, has called for a roundtable discussion next month, which the German bishops’ conference plans to participate in. In his note, Father Lombardi said the church was “naturally ready” to join the roundtable. “Probably its painful experience could be a useful contribution for others,” he said.

Robby

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #855 on: March 10, 2010, 12:09:58 AM »
I like your comparison, Emily. Porcaro is a Roman agitator on the order of Sam Adams, the Boston firebrand. Hod Porcaro and his friends been successful they would have been remembered as Roman heros instead of just victims of Nicholas' lost patience. It's interesting that the Roman republic ended at the dawn of the common era and did not return until post WWll. I don't think Garibaldi brought in a republic with his revolt. It seems to me he settled for a constitutional monarchy.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #856 on: March 10, 2010, 12:43:08 AM »
I wonder how much abuse might be avoided by a change in Church policy. Priests were not always subject to celibacy vows. It seems to me celibacy is more a perversion of natural human proclivities than homosexuality. The Church appears to have it backwards. They should forbid celibacy and accept homosexuality. It might end much of the sexual abuse of children by priests and it might also promote healthy relationships for men and women not attracted by an  opposite gender.

Ratzinger and his advisors are out of step with nature. Why can't they see that? What is it about clerics that makes them so obtuse? They are not uneducated like evangelicals. Perhaps, it's the culture. They speak only to others who reinforce these ideas.

 A milder form of this ideological  integration occurs in the US in politics. Democrats speak only to Democrats and Republicans only to Republicans. No one is interested in solving problems. They are only interested in protecting an ideology and being reelected.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #857 on: March 10, 2010, 06:22:45 AM »
This is a digression from "Popes" but is relevant because it takes place during the period of time we are discussing.

An Italian Antihero’s Time to Shine
By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN
ROME — By at least one amusing new metric, Michelangelo’s unofficial 500-year run at the top of the Italian art charts has ended. Caravaggio, who somehow found time to paint when he wasn’t brawling, scandalizing pooh-bahs, chasing women (and men), murdering a tennis opponent with a dagger to the groin, fleeing police assassins or getting his face mutilated by one of his many enemies, has bumped him from his perch.

That’s according to an art historian at the University of Toronto, Philip Sohm. He has studied the number of writings (books, catalogs and scholarly papers) on both of them during the last 50 years. Mr. Sohm has found that Caravaggio has gradually, if unevenly, overtaken Michelangelo.

He has charts to prove it.

The change, most obvious since the mid-1980s, doesn’t exactly mean Michelangelo has dropped down the memory hole. To judge from the throngs still jamming the Sistine Chapel and lining up outside the Accademia in Florence to check out “David,” his popularity hasn’t dwindled much.

But, charts or no charts, Mr. Sohm has touched on something. Caravaggiomania, as he calls it, implies not just that art history doctoral students may finally be struggling to think up anything fresh to say about Michelangelo. It suggests that the whole classical tradition in which Michelangelo was steeped is becoming ever more foreign and therefore seemingly less germane, even to many educated people. His otherworldly muscle men, casting the damned into hell or straining to emerge from thick blocks of veined marble, aspired to an abstract and bygone ideal of the sublime, grounded in Renaissance rhetoric, which, for postwar generations, now belongs with the poetry of Alexander Pope or plays by Corneille as admirable but culturally remote splendors.

Caravaggio, on the other hand, exemplifies the modern antihero, a hyperrealist whose art is instantly accessible. His doe-eyed, tousle-haired boys with puffy lips and bubble buttocks look as if they’ve just tumbled out of bed, not descended from heaven. Coarse not godly, locked into dark, ambiguous spaces by a strict geometry then picked out of deep shadow by an oracular light, his models come straight off the street. Cupid is clearly a hired urchin on whom Caravaggio strapped a pair of fake wings. The angel in his “Annunciation” dangles like Chaplin’s tramp on the high wire in “The Circus,” from what must have been a rope contraption Caravaggio devised.

Rome’s art establishment at the turn of the 17th century, immersed in the mandarin froufrou of Late Mannerism, despised Caravaggio for the filthy, barefoot pilgrims he painted at Mary’s doorstep. Out to “destroy painting,” as Nicolas Poussin, the most high-minded of all French artists, saw it, Caravaggio connected with ordinary people, the ones who themselves arrived barefoot and filthy as pilgrims in Rome. And fortunately for Caravaggio, he also appealed to a string of rich and powerful patrons.

But almost immediately after he died from a fever at 38, in 1610, on the beach at Porto Ercole, north of Rome, his art was written off by critics as a passing fad and neglected for hundreds of years, setting the stage for his modern resurrection. Connoisseurs like Bernard Berenson were still dismissing his work a century ago when Lionello Venturi, Roger Fry and Roberto Longhi, among others, finally revived his reputation as a protomodernist.

Mr. Sohm, who announced his findings during a talk at the College Art Association conference in Chicago last month, focused on publications, not tourist revenues or exhibition attendance figures, and his study says nothing about how Michelangelo and Caravaggio stack up against box-office greats like Rembrandt and van Gogh.

But his research does corroborate evidence plain to anybody in or out of art academe or who has browsed for scarves in Italian airports where motifs of Caravaggio’s “Bacchus” and head of Goliath have become as ubiquitous as coasters bearing bits of David’s anatomy and mugs with the figure of Adam from the Sistine ceiling. Caravaggios are now used to decorate the cover of “Emerging Infectious Diseases,” a medical journal, and to advertise a sex shop in London.

“The only way to understand old art is to make it participate in our own artistic life” is how Venturi phrased it in 1925. That Caravaggio left behind no drawings, no letters, no will or estate record, only police and court records, makes him a perfect Rorschach for our obsessions. He was outed in the 1970s by gender studies scholars, notwithstanding the absence of documents to indicate he was gay. Pop novelists and moviemakers have naturally had a field day with his life. Exhibition organizers cook up any excuse (“Caravaggio-Bacon,” “Caravaggio-Rembrandt”) to capitalize on his bankability. Newly discovered “Caravaggios” test the market every year.

Not long ago, two Caravaggios turned up in the French village of Loches in the Loire Valley, under the organ loft of a local church. Never mind that various Caravaggio experts have since doubted the pictures are by him: Loches is advertising itself as a Caravaggio town. And officials in Porto Ercole lately said his lost remains had been found in an underground ossuary, pending DNA tests with descendants of his brother, who still live near Milan. The iconoclast is even being turned into a religious icon, it seems: Caravaggio’s “bones” may soon become holy relics for art pilgrims.

Another Caravaggio retrospective has also opened, here at the Quirinale: two dozen paintings, on view through June 13, a blue-chip survey, installed ridiculously in darkened rooms with spotlights, as if his art needed more melodrama. But the pictures are glorious anyway. The exhibition is mobbed.

It happens that a show of Michelangelo’s drawings is at the Courtauld Gallery in London, through May 16. Gifts for a beautiful young Roman nobleman, Tommaso de’ Cavalieri, on whom Michelangelo had developed a crush, the drawings were ostensibly supposed to help Cavalieri learn to draw. Imagine Roger Federer handing you a DVD of himself at Wimbledon, saying “Just do this.” These are drawings of the most arcane refinement, unearthly beautiful.

By contrast, Caravaggio, wrestling art back to the ground, distilled scenes into a theatrical instant at which time seems suddenly stopped. That’s why his pictures can bring to mind movie stills. The art historian Michael Fried, who has just written a book about Caravaggio, notes the quality of the figures’ absorption. Life-size images, they share our space and we theirs, face to face, as another art historian, Catherine Puglisi, has pointed out (something that doesn’t happen with Michelangelo’s enormous sculptures or his frescoed ceiling that we only see from far away). The immediacy somehow dovetails with the tabloid tawdriness of his biography, with the whole modern celebrity drama.

The other afternoon endless scrums of tourists here jostled before the Caravaggios in the Church of San Luigi dei Francesi and the Basilica of Santa Maria del Popolo, feeding pocket change into the boxed light meters. It was probably just coincidental, but in the Church of Santa Maria sopra Minerva, nobody stopped to look at the Michelangelo.



mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #858 on: March 10, 2010, 03:12:26 PM »
Thanks for those 2 articles Robby. .............. the longer i live the more the old cliches seem like more than theory................re the first article on the church: thou doth protest too much...........the more severe i find people's "rules" about "thou shalt nots" the more i suspect they "may be." It seems everybody who has been caught in  "social misbehavior" lately has been strongly opposed to that behavior in speech and act. I think hypocracy has become my most hated behavior.

Regardless of who is now most popular, those two artists are extremely interesting men, are most people who are extremely creative also unique in other parts of their lives? Extreme, even? Does it come w/ the territory of creativity? ........................jean

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #859 on: March 10, 2010, 11:03:18 PM »
Am I totally at odds with others here ? I get the impression that the interests of many, are not in the works of Art as such, but more in the personalities of the Artists. It seems that most commentators in the field, are fascinated by, and wish to know more about "The Singer, not the Song."

For me, it is the other way round. I sympathize with the quip by President Clinton who when a tv interviewer kept asking about his, Clinton's private life, snapped "It's the Economy, stupid."

When I look at a painting, I think, I like that work, or I don't like that work, as the case may be. In other words "It is the painting, stupid, not the painter."

I like mathematics and science. In those fields, it is the theorems and the theories that catch my interest, and I could not care less whether the theorist is or was 'gay', poor or wealthy, honest or sly. Am I the peculiar one here ?  LOL.+++ Trevor



 

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #860 on: March 11, 2010, 01:21:59 PM »
Well, if you are, so am i, because i agree completely. However, i think the discussion here may tend to be about the artist because we can hold his/her story in our heads easier than we can hold the volume of their work in our heads. If i am looking at a particular piece of work, i determine if i like IT or not and most of the time i know nothing about the artist who crafted it.....................jean

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #861 on: March 11, 2010, 03:04:53 PM »
Strange: I saw the show that Simon Shema did on him, and couldn't remember ant of his paintings. But I still remember vividly seeing Michalangelo's David in Florance 45 years ago.

Here are ome of C's paintings:

http://photobucket.com/images/caravaggio/?page=8

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #862 on: March 14, 2010, 01:37:45 AM »
We have slipped ahead from the fifteenth century to the early seventeenth in one short posting, however, it is a nice diversion and one that we would not ordinarily cover in this volume of Durant.  

Caravaggio's name is Michelangelo Merisi. He is from Caravaggio and like so many other great painters, he is known by his origins. It is just as well as it helps us to avoid confusion when comparing him with Michelangelo Buonaroti. It is useful to know that Caravaggio fully appreciated the erotic attraction of young male bodies. It helps us to understand paintings such as Amor Vincit Omnia and Bacchus as well as others.

I know it is possible to look at a work of art and see it as a stand alone but that's not all there is. There is more, much more and you deny yourself the pleasure of the full experience when you examine a work out of context. When one sees a triangle it is just a triangle but the educated observer sees that it has special characteristics, that it is a right triangle and that it satisfies the Pythagorean equation and so on. All is not what one sees on the surface. There is often more, much more, that lies hidden from view for the tourist in any field.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #863 on: March 15, 2010, 12:20:45 AM »
Joan: When I first saw the David in the Accademia it's overall size was overwhelming. I had seen the piece many times before in miniature. In fact I had a replica of it on my shelves at home and I thought I knew the work quite well from having read many of the journal articles about it. But when I first saw it at the end of the long narrow room in which it resides the size of the sculpture seemed enormous. I think it is too large for the enclosure. When one looks at the full size replica in front of the Signoria it does not appear to be overly large. Did you also see the Donatello David while you were in Florence?

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #864 on: March 15, 2010, 12:40:02 AM »
Jean: Art for me is not a question of Like or dislike. Each piece is an interesting  challenge. How does it fit in with other pieces of the same mode and period? Why this subject at this time and why this subject from this artist? What else has he/she done and how does this work compare? Are the technical aspects of the work worthy? How does the composition, the iconography, tell the story?  Does it add anything to the school of thought that supports the genre? Is it just an amusing thing to observe or does it contribute in some way to our awareness of things? 

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #865 on: March 15, 2010, 05:08:55 PM »
Justin - i need to take you w/ me to the art shows/museums........... :)........jean

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #866 on: March 16, 2010, 12:19:13 AM »
Jean: It's a date.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #867 on: March 20, 2010, 08:04:49 AM »
Just as, in the era we are examining, the Pope was personally under attack, so it seems to be again in our period.

Pope Offers Apology, Not Penalty, for Sex Abuse Scandal
By RACHEL DONADIO and ALAN COWELL
VATICAN CITY — Confronting a sex abuse scandal spreading across Europe, including his native Germany, Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday apologized directly and personally to victims and their families in Ireland, expressing “shame and remorse” and saying “your trust had been betrayed and your dignity has been violated.”

His message, in a long-awaited, eight-page pastoral letter to Irish Catholics, seemed couched in strong and passionate language. But it did not refer directly to immediate disciplinary action beyond sending a special apostolic delegation to investigate unspecified dioceses and religious congregations in Ireland. Moreover, it was, as the Vatican said it would be, focused particularly on the situation in Ireland, even as the crisis has widened among Catholics in Ireland, Austria, the Netherlands and Germany.

“You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured. Your trust has been betrayed and your dignity has been violated,” the pope told Irish victims and their families.

“Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen. Those of you who were abused in residential institutions must have felt that there was no escape for your sufferings,” he continued.

“It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or be reconciled with the Church,” Benedict continued. “In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we all feel.”

Nowhere in the letter did Benedict address the responsibility of the Vatican itself. Many victims’ groups have criticized the Vatican for not recognizing the depth and scope of the abuse crisis sooner. Nor did he use the term punishment, or spell out any consequences for clergy or bishops who had not upheld canon or civil law. Indeed, he laid blame firmly with Irish Catholic leaders.

“I can only share in the dismay and the sense of betrayal that so many of you have experienced on learning of these sinful and criminal acts and the way church authorities in Ireland dealt with them,” he said. Addressing a section of his letter to abusers, the pope said they must “answer for it before Almighty God and before properly constituted tribunals” urging them to pray for forgiveness, “submit yourselves to the demands of justice, but do not despair of God’s mercy.” He did not specify the nature of the tribunals.

He said those who had committed abuse had “betrayed the trust” of “innocent young people and their parents” and “forfeited the esteem of the people of Ireland and brought shame and dishonor among your confreres.”

Speaking on Saturday just before the publication of the letter, Maeve Lewis, an executive director of One In Four, a support group in Dublin for victims of sexual abuse, said that the Vatican had tried to suggest that clerical abuse was an Irish problem. “The events of the last three weeks in Germany and Netherlands suggest otherwise,” she said.

Since last year, the Irish church has been shaken to the core by two damning reports by the Irish government. One revealed decades of systematic abuse of children in religious institutions, another showed an apparent cover-up in the diocese of Dublin of priests who had abused children being allowed to continue in pastoral care.

In neither case did the church routinely inform civil authorities about priests who had committed felonies. Four Irish bishops offered their resignation in the wake of the publication of the so-called Murphy report in November, but the pope has accepted only one.

For many Catholics, the letter offered a critical test of whether the pope can stem a widening crisis that has shaken the credibility and authority of the Roman Catholic church in other parts of the world and challenged the Vatican to end a culture of secrecy and cover-up permeating its cloistered hierarchy.

In his letter, Benedict spoke of “a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid penal approaches to canonically irregular situation,” adding that “it is in this overall context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child sexual abuse.”

The pope attributed the problem in part to “a misplaced concern for the reputation of the church and the avoidance of scandal, resulting in failure to apply existing canonical penalties and to safeguard the dignity of every person.”

He also cited “inadequate procedures” for determining the suitability of candidates for the priesthood and the religious life and “insufficient human, moral, intellectual and spiritual formation” in seminaries.

Benedict also directly addressed the bishops on whose watch the systematic abuse took place.

“It cannot be denied that some of you and your predecessors failed, at times grievously, to apply the long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse,” Benedict wrote. “Serious mistakes were made in responding to allegations.”

“I recognize how difficult it was to grasp the extent and the complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice,” he said, adding that besides “fully implementing the norms of canon law in addressing cases of child abuse,” bishops should also “continue to cooperate with the civil authorities in their area of competence.”

The pope also proposed a “nationwide mission” for all bishops, priests and religious to strengthen their vocations. And he urged Irish dioceses to devote chapels for intense prayer “to make reparation for the sins of abuse that have done so much harm.”

Earlier this week, Cardinal Sean Brady, the primate of Ireland, said in extraordinary comments to a mass on St. Patrick’s Day that he was “ashamed” of the situation and of his own actions in compelling two youths to sign secrecy agreements not to report abuse in the 1970s.

“I want to say to anyone who has been hurt by any failure on my part that I apologize to you with all my heart,” Cardinal Brady said. ”I also apologize to all those who feel I have let them down. Looking back, I am ashamed that I have not always upheld the values that I profess and believe in.”

In Germany the scandal has raised questions about the pope’s own past. This week the German church suspended a priest who had been permitted to work with children for decades after a court convicted him of molesting boys.

In 1980, Benedict, then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger, allowed the priest to move to Munich for therapy after allegations of abuse. The priest returned to pastoral work, but last week another church official took responsibility for allowing that move.

As reports of abuse cases spread many questions have been raised about the collision of Vatican secrecy and civil judicial process.

Some Irish church officials have said the problem has been deepened by confusion over the interpretation of a 2001 directive by Benedict, then a cardinal, reiterating a strict requirement for secrecy in handling abuse cases. The directive also gave the authority in handling such cases to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; Benedict was prefect of the congregation from 1982 until becoming pope in 2005.

In the past decade, the congregation has handled 3,000 such cases, 80 percent from the United States, a Vatican official acknowledged last week.

As the crisis deepened, the Vatican condemned what it called an aggressive campaign against the pope in Germany.

A week ago, the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said it was “evident that in recent days there are those who have tried, with a certain aggressive tenacity, in Regensburg and in Munich, to find elements to involve the Holy Father personally in issues of abuse.” He added, ”It is clear that those efforts have failed.”


Brian

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    • Brian's Den
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #868 on: March 20, 2010, 03:07:54 PM »
Robby - - - If the pope  wanted to do anything to change the depressingly persistant reality of the system in the Catholic Church of both men and women being "Married to God", he would allow - and encourage - them to schew the unnatural state of celibacy, which his church has enforced through the years.

Brian

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #869 on: March 20, 2010, 03:18:07 PM »
Brian: I agree, completely. Celibacy is at the root of the problem. But I don't think the papacy gives a hoot for the parishioners and their well being . It is ideology that is important; theology ranks above all else.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #870 on: March 21, 2010, 12:53:20 AM »
From Robby's post.......

Quote
a 2001 directive by Benedict, then a cardinal, reiterating a strict requirement for secrecy in handling abuse cases. The directive also gave the authority in handling such cases to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; Benedict was prefect of the congregation from 1982 until becoming pope in 2005.

The sexual abuse and physical abuse of a child is a crime. Anyone who knew about the abuse and did not report it to law enforcement is a criminal. Anyone who stressed secrecy is a criminal, and should be charged as a child abuser.

In another of Robby's links it stated that the brother of the Pope was apologizing for slapping children in the face when he directed the boys choir. He is a child abuser and unfit for any duty.

It looks as though the Pope led the cover-up, and prison would be a suitable place for him and his brother.

Getting rid of 'celibacy' would not stop pedophilia.

'Secrecy' is the problem. Make it a crime and lock them all away for life.

Start with the Pope.

Emily
 



Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #871 on: March 21, 2010, 12:00:26 PM »
Quote
Getting rid of 'celibacy' would not stop pedophilia.

Emily - - -  I agree that cover-up of any sort of crime is heinous, but I feel that enforced celibacy is a major factor, if not THE major reason for sexual aberration resulting from the Catholic Church's (and the pope's) policy.

In addition to which, priests would be of much greater help to their parishioners in sexual
matters if they had a healthy experience of sex themselves.

Brian.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #872 on: March 21, 2010, 12:03:55 PM »
Has any pope ever said "this is intolerable and criminal and if you do thus and such you will be arrested and removed from the clergy! We have a zero tolerance for abuse!" ? ................... jean

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #873 on: March 21, 2010, 01:34:07 PM »
Mabel - - - does this answer the question?

The Guardian newspaper found a confidential communique from John to Catholic Bishops, allegedly mandating confidentiality in matters of pederasty with the threat of excommunication.[14] These allegations were later refuted by Archbishop Vincent Gerard Nichols, Chairman of the Catholic Office for the Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults. Nichols explained that the communique "is not directly concerned with child abuse at all, but with the misuse of the confessional. This has always been a most serious crime in Church law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_XXIII

Brian.


3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #874 on: March 22, 2010, 12:25:08 AM »
Celibacy and child abuse. Over theyears I have often heared that the two are related. However I must say that abuse of children seems to be practiced by persons in all walks of life. It is in no way confined to Catholic clergy.

I myself am an agnostic, but my wife is a very devout Catholic, and credits that faith with enabling herself and her parents to survive two years in a Soviet Labour camp in Siberia.
They were Poles who were transported along with 1.5 million other Poles from Poland to the Gulag camps where many perished.

As a strong catholic living here in NZ, she makes all members of the clergy welcome in our home. Her younger brother became a Teaching Brother, and he often lived with us through out the teaching year, and frequently invited other members of the faith, all of whom had taken vows of celibacy, to visit us. I often argue with them over the existence of God, and related matters.

I am certain that not even one member of that group could ever be a child abuser, in any way. It is just absurd to claim otherwise. I do not follow their ideas of God, but in all other matters, they are as concerned for the rights of children as anyone here. +++ Trevor.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #875 on: March 22, 2010, 01:25:26 PM »
"is not directly concerned with child abuse at all, but with the misuse of the confessional. This has always been a most serious crime in Church law."



well, i guess that states the priorities  ::)  ::)

Trevor - i think we all understand that these are individual cases, not a blanket accusation of the clergy..........but my problem is w/ the church policy and response as much as w/ the abusers.........institutions do tend to protect themselve, but one would assume a religious institution would attempt to do the moral/right thing........isn't child abuse a "sin" (from the church's perspective) as well as a crime?...........Hypocrisy may annoy me more than any other behavior...........jean

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #876 on: March 22, 2010, 06:01:13 PM »
I received this email and don't know if it is from Justin or if it is spam.

From: Justin B Fash
To: undisclosed recipients:
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:25 AM
Subject: My Predicament!!!


I'm writing this with tears in my eyes, I'm sorry for this odd request because it might get to you too urgent but it's because of the situation of things right now, I'm stuck in London United Kingdom right now, i came down here on vacation, i was robbed, worse of it was that bags, cash and cards and my cell phone were stolen off me at GUN POINT, so i only have access to my emails, it's such a crazy and brutal experience for me and i was hurt on my right hand, but i'm glad i still have my life. I need help flying back home, the authorities are not being 100% supportive, i have been to the embassy and the Police here in London,
but they're not helping issues at all, but the good thing is that i still have my passport but don't have enough money to sort the bills and get my flight ticket back home, please i need you to loan me some money, i promise to refund it as soon as I'm back home, you can get it to me through western union.

Justin.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #877 on: March 22, 2010, 07:24:46 PM »
Did it come from Justin's e-mail address (available in his profile)?

It doesn't sound like the writing of  an educated English speaker, even an upset one.

You could e-mail him and see if you get a reply.

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #878 on: March 22, 2010, 09:00:19 PM »
Re that letter that may have come from Justin. I am suspicious that it is from him.
That is because since I rejoined this discussion, I have recieved a large number of e-mails, all addressing me as 'Trevor'. That is not my real name, and this  is the only place on the internet that I am known that way. The content of the e-mails is so offensive that I know they could not have come from any regular person here. Perhaps the one purporting to come from Justin is one of that kind.+++   Trevor

Brian

  • Posts: 221
    • Brian's Den
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #879 on: March 22, 2010, 09:25:47 PM »
IT IS A SPAM - - - it does not have Justin's true email, and if perchance you DO answer the address at the top of your spam email - - - DO NOT OPEN ANY .EXE files - - - or you will open
yourself to Nigerian spammers and possible virus infection.

Spam messages are generated and sent in vast numbers to people whse email addresses have been "bought " on the internet.

Do not open any attachment that you have not asked for, or you have not been aware of its having been sent to you.  They often contain .EXE files that can "take over" control of your computer, and they often have viruses imbedded in them.

Brian.