Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 368139 times)

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #880 on: March 22, 2010, 09:28:44 PM »
If you do happen to receive this spam email (as both Robby and I did) - - - just delete it without opening, and you will come to no harm.

Brian.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #881 on: March 22, 2010, 09:36:39 PM »
Trevor - - - 3kings - - - or Pat - - - I am sorry to hear that you have received "abusive" emails, but fully agree with you that they are unlikely to have originated from within our discussion group.  The wording of "Justin's email" is typical of those from Nigeria.  Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #882 on: March 23, 2010, 02:10:43 AM »
The message you have received from "Justin" seeking funds is not from me. The Nigerians have some how tapped my address file. I am in the process of contacting my guru for advice on the topic. Please delete the message with out opening it.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #883 on: March 23, 2010, 06:16:36 AM »
I had intended to email you, Justin, if you had not posted but was convinced it was spam.  I have deleted that incoming message.  I wonder if those in the Renaissance period ever had problems like this?

Robby

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #884 on: March 23, 2010, 08:18:20 PM »
Robby

Quote
I wonder if those in the Renaissance period ever had problems like this?

Sure they did. We just discussed Stefano Porcaro attempting to take the money from the Vatican vault to restore self government to Rome.

Unlike the person standing by the Western Union office at Heathrow asking if 'Justin' had any money come in, Stefano actually had to show up and break open the vault. He was beheaded for his plan which was never carried out.

Perhaps we should act like the Pope's spies who caught Stefano on the way to Rome and report to the authorities at Heathrow that there was a scam using Western Union to fleece the unsuspecting friends of Justin.

Emily


Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #885 on: March 23, 2010, 08:52:26 PM »
Emily - - - the "Authorities" would be less than interested.  This particular spam is rampant right now, and as the prose suggests, is probably of Nigerian origin.

The main thing to highlight is the need for caution in dealing with all emails with attachments, and extra care when browsing the internet not to open areas in sites that one does not fully trust.

Brian.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #886 on: March 25, 2010, 05:25:46 PM »
Justin - - -   was your email list compromised, and did they steal your email password?

I have "000000" as the first name in my address book, and "zzzzzz" as the last one.  This means that if my address book is hijacked, and a mass mailing is tried, the effort is aborted as they cannot get past the first or last "name".

Brian.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #887 on: March 25, 2010, 08:11:08 PM »
This may be of interest to those of us here who were part of our discussion examining Durant's first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage."

After Years of War and Abuse, New Hope for Ancient Babylon
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
The most immediate threat to preserving the ruins of Babylon, the site of one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, is water soaking the ground and undermining what is left in present-day Iraq of a great city from the time of King Nebuchadnezzar II.

It is also one of the oldest threats. The king himself faced water problems 2,600 years ago. Neglect, reckless reconstruction and wartime looting have also taken their toll in recent times, but archaeologists and experts in the preservation of cultural relics say nothing substantial should be done to correct that until the water problem is brought under control.

A current study, known as the Future of Babylon project, documents the damage from water mainly associated with the Euphrates River and irrigation systems nearby. The ground is saturated just below the surface at sites of the Ishtar Gate and the long-gone Hanging Gardens, one of the seven wonders. Bricks are crumbling, temples collapsing. The Tower of Babel, long since reduced to rubble, is surrounded by standing water.

Leaders of the international project, describing their findings in interviews and at a meeting this month in New York, said that any plan for reclaiming Babylon as a tourist attraction and a place for archaeological research must include water control as “the highest priority.”

The study, aimed at developing a master plan for the ancient city, was begun last year by the World Monuments Fund in collaboration with Iraq’s State Board of Antiquities and Heritage. A $700,000 grant from the United States Department of State is financing the initial two-year study and preliminary management plan. An official of the monuments fund said the entire effort could last five or six years.

“This is without doubt the most complex program we’ve ever had to organize,” said Bonnie Burnham, the fund’s president.

A few archaeologists have expressed concern about what they said was the project’s slow start. Project members said that they have had serious problems persuading foreign experts to go to Iraq and then clearing them and their instruments for work there.

Besides the wear of time that all ruins of antiquity are prey to, consider the depredations Babylon has suffered in recent history. German archaeologists who made the first careful study of the site, before World War I, recognized the despoiling inroads of irrigation waters drawn from a tributary of the Euphrates River, 50 miles south of modern Baghdad.

McGuire Gibson, a specialist in Mesopotamian archaeology at the University of Chicago, who is not involved in the project, agreed that water is Babylon’s “major problem,” which he said was made worse in recent years when a lake and canal were dug as part of a campaign to lure tourists. Nebuchadnezzar himself, Dr. Gibson noted, dealt with water encroachment by erecting new buildings at ever-higher elevations, on top of mounds of old ruins.

The first German investigators, led by Robert Koldewey, reported finding extensive water damage to mud-brick structures and the intrusion of agricultural fields and villages within boundaries of the original city. People had already carted off bricks and stones, leaving almost nothing of the Ziggurat, known from the historian Herodotus and the Bible as the Tower of Babel. The Germans themselves hauled off the elaborate Ishtar Gate to a museum in Berlin.

Then, in the 1970s and ’80s, President Saddam Hussein of Iraq, casting himself as heir to Nebuchadnezzar’s greatness, had his own imposing palace built at Babylon along the lines of his royal predecessor’s. He even adopted the king’s practice of stamping his own name on the bricks for the reconstruction. Archaeologists were aghast. The new palace and a few other restorations, they say, are hardly authentic, and yet they dominate the site.

What to do with Hussein’s palace is another issue, said the co-director of the project, Jeff Allen. “How to balance integrity of the site with its use as a tourist attraction is the problem,” he explained, noting that Iraq counts on Babylon as a future source of foreign tourist income.

Mr. Allen, an American consultant in cultural preservation who is based in Cairo, said it would cost millions of dollars to demolish the palace or convert it into a visitor center for tourists. “This still has to be studied by other experts,” he said, joking that one suggestion is that the palace would make a perfect casino.

“I’d leave the palace alone,” Dr. Gibson said, pointing out that it was based on sketches left by the German archaeologists.

“So that way, you will walk around in something of what the ancient architecture looked like,” he continued. “Otherwise, you walk around with nothing to see but a bunch of rubble.”

Elizabeth C. Stone, an archaeologist at Stony Brook University in New York who is familiar with Babylon, said she supported efforts to reopen the site to tourists, especially Iraqis themselves. “It’s near Baghdad and is the one site where you used to see Iraqis going to get a sense of their past,” she said.

Further damage was incurred during the Iraq war, started in 2003. Looting was prevalent there and at other archaeological sites. The United States military occupied Babylon for several years, protecting it from plundering but leaving other scars. About one square kilometer of surface soil, some of it with artifacts, “got removed one way or another,” Dr. Stone said.

“The military certainly did not do the place any good,” said Lisa Ackerman, executive vice president of the monuments fund. “They moved a lot of dirt around, but that damage is largely fixable.”

The site was returned to Iraqi control more than a year ago. Ms. Ackerman and Mr. Allen said the project had already surveyed the remains, building by building, and started the restoration of two museums. Although Iraq has a large corps of trained archaeologists, they said, an immediate need is to instruct others in the conservation of ruins and bring in structural engineers and hydrologists to handle the water problem.



mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #888 on: March 26, 2010, 12:56:32 PM »
Interesting Robby - there's always the balance between saving antiquity and cost, plus the questions of what is worth saving and for what reason.

On another subj - i was appalled yesterday to hear that a memorial to Dwight Eisenhower is going to cost $100 million!!!!! The man didn't  make anywhere near that income in his whole life - i don't know why that tho't came to mind, it really has no significance to the cost of the memorial, but that was my first tho't. I'm an admirer of Gen E., but my goodness! Is that necessary?...................jean

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #889 on: March 27, 2010, 01:51:17 PM »
From Robby's article

Quote
The Germans themselves hauled off the elaborate Ishtar Gate to a museum in Berlin.

That statement in the article if refuted by everything I have read on the subject. The Germans were there in 1899 and the German archaelolgist Robert Koldewey did a replica of the gate with materials supplied by Koldewey, now stands in Berlins Pergamon museum.

That is a far cry from hauling off the Ishtar gate. What is left of the damaged Ishtar gate still stands in Babylon. Over the years the damage has been recently added by the occupation of U.S. forces who built Camp Alpha on the ground of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, and did heavy damage leading from the Ishtar gate down the ceremonial walkway with heavy equipment destroying the brick lined walk.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/28/AR2009072802835.html

Another quote from Robby's article.....

Quote
"I'd leave the palace alone", Dr. Gibson said, pointing out that it was based on sketches left by the German archaeologists. "So that way, you will walk around in something of what the ancient architecture looked like," he continued. "Otherwise, you walk around with nothing to see but a bunch of rubble."

I agree with his statement, it was built from Iraqi material by Iraqis using architectual drawings left by the Germans from the 1800's. If the American commentator from Chicago who was quoted and was not actually there, it probably would have been a casino that was built, instead of a replica.

Emily





Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #890 on: March 27, 2010, 03:21:01 PM »
Jean, this is for you regarding the Eisenhower memorial.

http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/

The GAO selected Frank O. Gehry to design the building and grounds. It will be the first presidential memorial of the 21st century. The article states there are six presidential memorials and Eisenhower's will be the seventh. They list the Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln memorials in Wash. D.C. and Mount Rushmore. I went looking for the other two they counted and found plenty of memorials, but had to do a guess as to the other two. By the way, the carvings on Mt. Rushmore took years and cost a total of almost 990,000, less than a million dollars.

I did not like the columns to nowhere in the second picture down on the design. Otherwise it looked fine, but not a hundred million fine.

I selected the statue of Ulysses S. Grant in Washington D.C. as one of my picks. It is the second largest equestrian statue in the U.S. and third largest in the world. The Mexican conquistador Don Juan de Onate in El Paso, Texas is the largest in the U.S.  The largest in the world is a monument to Italy's King Victor Emanuel in Rome.

The other selection I chose because I like the president, Franklin D. Roosevelt. He has a statue on the mall.

The first trip that holds memories to Wash. D.C. was as a sixteen year old high school graduate. We were sent to view historical sites at that time instead of the beach for something called 'Spring break' that we did not have.

One memory was climbing the Washington monument inside a narrow claustrophobic stairway with other students. It was hot and crowded. What a relief to sit in the cool grass outside after that climb.

We did all the memorials, the Congress, White House, museums, etc. Our State representative met us at the Capitol and led us to the gallery to watch congress in action, along with a tour. President Truman was not in the White House. It had only recently reopened for tours since Truman saved it from collapse and it had to be gutted and rebuilt. Truman lived across the street at Blair House. The viewing rooms were restored but had little furniture inside. It looked big and empty without a family living there.

An aside about Eisenhower. When Ronald Reagan died and I wondered if they were ever going to actually bury him, I looked for other presidential elaborate funeral displays.

Eisenhower asked to be buried in the same wooden box or casket, afforded to the common soldier at the cost of under 300 dollars if my memory is right. They did put in a small glass at top for viewing which cost little.

That alone endeared him to me, it showed he was humble.

Emily


Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #891 on: March 27, 2010, 04:05:11 PM »
Jean, I had looked through all my notebooks back through 2005 looking for the information on President Eisenhowers funeral service. I had forgotten what year Reagan died. It was in 2004 and I found the information right away from my notes.

Eisenhower's casket was $80 government issue, same as any soldier. His had an inner glass seal at a cost of $115. So total cost of $195.

He lay in state and had a funeral service in Wash.D.C. from Mar. 29 to Mar. 31. He was put on a train to Abilene, Kansas where he is buried in a chapel on the grounds of the Eisenhower Center.

Harry S. Truman died Dec. 26, 1972, funeral and burial on Dec. 27, 1972 in the courtyard of his Library in Missouri.

Lyndon B. Johnson died Jan 22, 1973, buried Jan. 25, 1973 in family cemetary on his ranch.

John F. Kennedy died Nov. 22, 1963 and was buried on Nov. 25, 1963.

Franklin D. Roosevelt died April 12, 1945 in Warm Springs, Georgia. Funeral train to White House, after funeral ceremony, body placed back on train to Hyde Park, N.Y. where it arrived Apr. 14th. He was buried on April 15, 1945. FDR did not lie in state all over Washington, but spent three days on a train going toward his final resting place in New York.

I had looked all this information up to compare recent presidents deaths and how they were handled as compared to Ronald Reagan during his memorials and funeral services in 2004.

Betty Ford outdid them though with the traveling Gerald Ford funeral services.

Emily

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #892 on: March 27, 2010, 04:34:29 PM »
Emily - thanks so much for all that info. You encouraged me to go looking further and i found this which compliments the site you put up.

http://www.gctelegram.com/news/ap-eisenhower-memorial-03-26-10

As i looked thru the "history" of Ike's memorial planning the cost went from $65 - $85 million to $90 - $120 million. The steel mesh tapestries sound interesting. I see he is doing that in the new section of the PHila Mus of Art. I'll have to check out those. But WHEW! that's a lot of money.

I laughed at your comment about RR [When Ronald Reagan died and I wondered if they were ever going to actually bury him, /color]...............the final day of funerals when they were flying him around the RR Library my friend sent me a msg asking "Are they ever going to bury the SOB?" Obviously she was not a fan...............but you made me laugh remembering that day................jean

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #893 on: March 28, 2010, 11:19:00 AM »
CALIXTUS III   1455-58

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #894 on: March 28, 2010, 11:31:26 AM »
What is a Calixtus? .................. sounds like a disease......... ;D.........jean

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #895 on: March 28, 2010, 11:43:42 AM »
We return to Durant.

The disunion of Italy determined the papal election that followed.   The factions, unable to agree on an Italian, chose a Spanish cardinal, Alfonso Borgin, who took the name of Calixtus III.  He was already seventy seven.  He could be depended upon to die soon, and allow the cardinals another and perhaps more profitable choice.  A specialist in canon law and diplomacy, he had a legalistic mind and cared little for the classical scholarship that had enamored Nicholas.  The humanists, who had no indigenous root in Rome languished during his pontificate, except that Valla, now quite reformed, was still a papal secretary.

Calixtus was a good man who loved his relatives.  Ten months after his coronation he raised to the cardinalate two of his nephews – Luis Juan de Mila and Rodrigo B Borgia – and Don Jayme of Portugal, respectively twenty five, twenty four, and twenty three years of age.  Rodrigo (the future Alexander VI) had the additional handicap of being carelessly candid about his mistresses.  However, Calixtus gave him the most lucrative post at the papal court – that of vice chancellor.  In the same year he made him also commander in chief of the papal troops.

 So began, or grew, the nepotism by which pope after pope gave church offices to his nephews or other relatives who were sometimes his sons.  To the anger of the Italians, Calixtus surrounded himself with men of his own country.  Rome was now ruled by Catalans.  The Pope had reasons – he was a foreigner in Rome.  The nobles and republicans were plotting against him.  He wished to have near him men whom he knew and who would protect him from intrigue while he attended to his prime interest – a crusade.  Moreover, the Pope was resolved to have friends in a College of Cardinals perpetually struggling to make the papacy a constitutional as well as an elective monarchy, subject in all its decisions to the cardinals as a senate or privy council.

 The popes opposed and overcame this movement precisely as the kings fought and defeated the nobles.  In each case absolute monarchy won.  But perhaps the replacement of a local with a national economy and the growth of international relations in scope and complexity required, for the time, a centralization of leadership and authority.

Calixtus wore out his last energies in a vain attempt to stir Europe to resist the Turks.  When he died Rome celebrated the end of its rule by ‘barbarians.’  When Cardinal Piccolomini was named his successor Rome rejoiced as it had not rejoiced over any pope during the last two hundred years.


Your comments, please.

Robby

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #896 on: March 28, 2010, 12:52:36 PM »
Another pope on the defense.

Pope, in Sermon, Says He Won’t Be Intimidated
By REUTERS
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) — Pope Benedict, facing one of the gravest crises of his pontificate as a sexual abuse scandal sweeps the Church, indicated on Sunday that his faith would give him the courage not to be intimidated by critics.

The 82-year-old pontiff led tens of thousands of people in a sunny St. Peter’s Square in a Palm Sunday service at the start of Holy Week events commemorating the last days in the life of Jesus.

While he did not directly mention the scandal involving sexual abuse of children by priests, parts of his sermon could be applicable to the crisis.

The pontiff said faith in God helps lead one “towards the courage of not allowing oneself to be intimidated by the petty gossip of dominant opinion.”

He also spoke of how man can sometimes “fall to the lowest, vulgar levels” and “sink into the swamp of sin and dishonesty.”

One prayer asked God to help “the young and those who work to educate and protect them,” which Vatican Radio said was intended to “sum up the feelings of the Church at this difficult time when it confronts the plague of pedophilia.”

As the scandal has convulsed the Church, the Vatican has gone on the offensive, attacking the media for what it called an “ignoble attempt” to smear Pope Benedict and his top advisers.

On Saturday, the Vatican’s chief spokesman acknowledged that the Church’s response to cases of sexual abuse by priests was crucial to its credibility and it must “acknowledge and make amends for” even decades-old cases.

“The nature of this issue is bound to attract media attention and the way the Church responds is crucial for its moral credibility,” the Vatican’s chief spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, said on Vatican Radio.

Although the cases cited happened long ago, “even decades ago, acknowledging them and making amends to the victims is the price for re-establishing justice and looking to the future with renewed vigor, humility and confidence,” Father Lombardi said.

Sunday marked the start of a hectic week during which the Pope presides over seven major events leading up to Easter.

But while Catholics commemorate Christ’s passion, the 1.1 billion member Church is reeling from media reports on abuse that have led to the pope’s doorstep.

The Vatican has denied any cover-up in the abuse of 200 deaf boys in the United States by the Reverend Lawrence Murphy from the 1950s to the 1960s, after reports that he was not defrocked although the case was made known to the Vatican and to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then the Church’s top doctrinal official, now Pope Benedict.

The Vatican also said that the pope, while archbishop of Munich in 1980, was not involved in the decision by a subordinate to allow a priest who had been transferred there to undergo therapy for sexual abuse to return later to pastoral duties.

The European epicenter of the scandal is Ireland, where two bishops have resigned over their handling of abuse cases years ago. Three others have offered their resignation and there have been calls for the head of the Irish Church, Cardinal Sean Brady, to step down.



Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #897 on: March 28, 2010, 01:13:31 PM »
As we compare the Papal crises of over 500 years ago, we are experiencing a current Papal crisis.  Durant told us of the uprising of the people and now -- below -- we hear the Catholics speak.


Published on National Catholic Reporter (http://ncronline.org)

Home > Credibility gap: Pope needs to answer questions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Credibility gap: Pope needs to answer questions

Article Details
We now face the largest institutional crisis in centuries, possibly in church history
The Holy Father needs to directly answer questions, in a credible forum, about his role -- as archbishop of Munich (1977-82), as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (1982-2005), and as pope (2005-present) -- in the mismanagement of the clergy sex abuse crisis.Nothing less than a full, personal and public accounting will begin to address the crisis that is engulfing the worldwide church.
  
The Holy Father needs to directly answer questions, in a credible forum, about his role -- as archbishop of Munich (1977-82), as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (1982-2005), and as pope (2005-present) -- in the mismanagement of the clergy sex abuse crisis.

We urge this not primarily as journalists seeking a story, but as Catholics who appreciate that extraordinary circumstances require an extraordinary response. Nothing less than a full, personal and public accounting will begin to address the crisis that is engulfing the worldwide church. It is that serious.

To date, as revelations about administrative actions resulting in the shifting of clergy abusers from parish to parish emerge throughout Europe, Pope Benedict XVI's personal response has been limited to a letter to the Irish church. Such epistles are customary and necessary, but insufficient.

With the further revelations March 26 [2] by The New York Times that memos and meeting minutes exist showing that Benedict had to be at least minimally informed that an abuser priest was coming into the archdiocese of Munich and that he further had been assigned without restrictions to pastoral duties, it becomes even more difficult to reconcile the strong language of the pope in his letter to Irish bishops and his own conduct while head of a major see.

No longer can the Vatican simply issue papal messages -- subject to nearly infinite interpretations and highly nuanced constructions -- that are passively "received" by the faithful. No longer can secondary Vatican officials, those who serve the pope, issue statements and expect them to be accepted at face value.

We were originally told by Vatican officials, for example, that in the matter of Fr. Peter Hullermann, Munich Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger approved the priest's transfer to the archdiocese, but had no role in the priest's return to parish ministry, where he again molested children. Rather, it was Fr. Gerhard Gruber, archdiocesan vicar general at the time, who, according to a March 12 Vatican statement, has taken "full responsibility" for restoring the priest to ministry. Gruber, subsequent to his statement, has not made himself available for questions.

We are told, moreover, that the case of Hullermann is the single instance during Ratzinger's tenure in Munich where a sexually errant priest was relocated to a parish where he could molest again. If true, this would be a great exception to what, in the two-and-a-half decades NCR has covered clergy abuse in the church, has been an ironclad rule: Where there is one instance of hierarchical administrative malfeasance, there are more.

Given memos and minutes placing the pope amid the discussions of the matter, we are asked to suspend disbelief even further.

Context of mismanagement

The first reported clergy sex abuse stories, dating back in NCR to 1985, focused on the misconduct of priests who had been taken to court by parents of molested children -- parents who had gone to church officials, but received no solace. Instead, what they received from church officials was denial and counter accusation.

Almost from the beginning of the coverage of these trials, it was clear the clergy sex abuse story had two consistent components: the abusing priest and the cover-up by the bishop.

The story grew as more survivors of abuse came forward. What soon became evident was that this was not primarily a story of wayward priests, but of an uncannily consistent pattern by individual bishops. In nearly every instance, bishops, faced with accusations of child abuse, denied them, even as they shuffled priests to new parishes, even as they covered up their own actions.

The story was first flushed out in the United States and soon across Canada. By the year 2000, sex abuse accusations were turning up across the globe. In the United States, the scandal flared anew in 2002 when a judge released thousands of pages of documents dealing with the sex abuse scandal in the Boston archdiocese. Suddenly, ordinary Catholics had access to the patterns involved in the cover-up and to the unfiltered language of memos and legal depositions and letters that outlined how church officials sought to protect perpetrators and marginalize their victims. All at once, the public outrage was commensurate with the hierarchy's outrageous behavior. The story would repeat itself around the country: Wherever documents were released or legal authorities conducted investigations, the depth of clerical depravity and the extent of hierarchical cover-up were far greater than previously acknowledged by church authorities.

Knowing they had an unprecedented crisis of credibility and facing potential multibillion-dollar liability, the U.S. bishops met in Dallas in June 2002. The whole world, represented by more than 800 members of the press, was watching.

There the prelates unveiled what came to be a "Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People." It was intended to protect children from molestation, establishing a "one strike and you're out" policy for offending priests. It did nothing, however, to hold accountable individual bishops who engineered the cover-up.

By early 2001, responsibility for managing the church's response to the ongoing crisis was delegated to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, headed by Cardinal Ratzinger. The Vatican, by then, viewed the crisis as beyond the boundaries of any one national church.

Crisis crosses borders

In the last decade the story has not gone away. Rather it has continuously reared its head in nation after nation, especially in those countries with a free press and independent judicial system. A dominant characteristic of this story is that where and when it has emerged it has done so without the aid of church hierarchy. To the contrary, it has taken lawsuit after lawsuit, investigative report after investigative report, to bring this horrendous story to necessary light.

Another part of the pattern of this dispiriting tale is that church officials have never been in front of the story. Always late, always responding, and, therefore, at every step of the way losing credibility. This seemed to be the case once again with Benedict's pastoral letter to Irish Catholics.

By the time he issued the letter, the story had moved to his native country, Germany, and had touched him personally. In the past two months, there have been more than 250 accusations of sex abuse in Germany. From the German Catholic viewpoint, the pope's failure to mention anything about these abuse cases has pained them deeply and added to suspicions that the former archbishop of Munich has lost touch with his people.

Inexorably, a story that began with reports on trials in a few U.S. cities a quarter century back has now moved up the Catholic institutional ladder -- from priests to bishops to national bishops' conferences and to the Vatican itself. This last step is the one we see emerging this month. The new focus is unlikely to end anytime soon.

Time for answers

The focus now is on Benedict. What did he know? When did he know it? How did he act once he knew?

The questions arise not only about his conduct in Munich, but also, based also as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. A March 25 Times story [3], citing information from bishops in the United States, reported that the Vatican had failed to take action against a priest accused of molesting as many as 200 deaf children while working at a school from 1950 to 1974. Correspondence reportedly obtained by the paper showed requests for the defrocking of the priest, Fr. Lawrence Murphy, going directly from U.S. bishops to Ratzinger, then head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, and Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, now the Vatican secretary of state. No action was taken against Murphy.

Like it or not, this new focus on the pope and his actions as an archbishop and Vatican official fits the distressing logic of this scandal. For those who have followed this tragedy over the years, the whole episode seems familiar: accusation, revelation, denial and obfuscation, with no bishop held accountable for actions taken on their watch. Yes, there is a depressing madness to this story. Time after time, this is a story of institutional failure of the deepest kind, a failure to defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ, a failure to put compassion ahead of institutional decisions aimed at short-term benefits and avoiding public scandal.

The strategies employed so far -- taking the legal path, obscuring the truth, and doing everything possible to protect perpetrators as well as the church's reputation and treasury -- have failed miserably.

We now face the largest institutional crisis in centuries, possibly in church history. How this crisis is handled by Benedict, what he says and does, how he responds and what remedies he seeks, will likely determine the future health of our church for decades, if not centuries, to come.

It is time, past time really, for direct answers to difficult questions. It is time to tell the truth.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #898 on: March 28, 2010, 08:35:23 PM »
Could Durant possibly be showing us some humor?

"Rodrigo (the future Alexander VI) had the additional handicap of being carelessly candid about his mistresses.  However, Calixtus gave him the most lucrative post at the papal court – that of vice chancellor.

Jean

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #899 on: March 28, 2010, 10:05:41 PM »
The current Papal crisis............

Today on the news report from Rome, a reporter asked a man in Vatican square about the current reports of child sexual abuse and cover up within the church.

He said, 'We are all human, it is about sinners and forgiveness.'

No, it is not.

It is about crimes and punishment.

Emily


Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #900 on: March 30, 2010, 06:03:52 PM »
Exchange between Justin and me.

Have you seen the "reply" button at the top as well as the bottom?

----- Original Message -----
From: Justin B Fash
To: Robert Iadeluca
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Robby here


I don't blame you for being uncertain but yes, it was from me. There is no reply link available on the posting chain. So I can't bring up a posting area. Post Number 899 is the last one up.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Iadeluca <rbiallok@earthlink.net>
To: justinfash@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:14:13 AM
Subject: Robby here


Justin:
        I received an email saying you were missing a reply button and asking if I could help.  I don't know if was indeed from you.
 
                                                                            Robby

Pat

  • Posts: 1544
  • US 34, IL
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #901 on: March 30, 2010, 06:36:49 PM »
Justin:  I have emailed you a suggestion.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #902 on: March 30, 2010, 06:39:40 PM »
I was a Boy Scout, a Scoutmaster, and from 1950 to 1963 was a career Scout Executive so God forbid I should compare this situation with that of the present Pope and past popes.  Do you folks here see a similarity or not?

Boy Scouts Open Defense in Oregon $25 Million Case
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
 Boy Scouts Open Defense in Oregon $25 Million Case
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 6:03 p.m. ET

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- Attorneys for the Boy Scouts of America have begun their defense of a $25 million lawsuit filed by an Oregon man who was sexually abused decades ago.

The 37-year-old victim was molested in the early 1980s by assistant Scoutmaster Timur Dykes, who was convicted three times of molesting boys and provided a videotaped deposition in which he acknowledged assaulting the victim.

The trial on the lawsuit began two weeks ago. It claims Boy Scout leaders knew Dykes had been convicted but allowed him to continue Scouting activities.

The case hinges partly on an extensive file the Boy Scouts kept between 1966 to 1984 on suspected molesters among its adult volunteers.

Attorneys for the Boy Scouts say the documents protected children by helping leaders weed out sex offenders.



   

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #903 on: March 30, 2010, 08:05:46 PM »
Pat and Robby: All seems to be well. I thought I was permanently logged in but may not have been. However, I changed the indicators to show permanent logging. The reply button has returned. Thank You one and all.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #904 on: March 30, 2010, 08:08:57 PM »
Brian: I have tried to use the technique you suggest for address files but have run into a problem. The zzzzzz's work ok but the 000000's are not acceptable in an alpha oriented list. Do you have a solution?

Brian

  • Posts: 221
    • Brian's Den
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #905 on: March 30, 2010, 08:31:06 PM »
Justin - - -   Try    !000000    - - - it should work.

(Does not have to be red).

Brian.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #906 on: March 31, 2010, 12:49:23 AM »
Testing. Testing. The administration of this site thinks I am a guest. I post and they say no. What a nuisance.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #907 on: March 31, 2010, 01:13:16 AM »
The Boy Scouts may have a list of dangerous leaders but unless they dismiss leaders who have been convicted of a crime the list is useless. One who has once tasted the pleasures of silk and young boys, as Elegabalus tasted  them, will find it hard to stop the practice. Molesting children is certainly a crime. It may also be a sin but the clergy have never found that to be a deterrent. Benedict has had a list in fact he was the controlling element in the use of the list for many years. It is ridiculous for him to deny knowledge of cases of abuse. He did not govern in a vacuum. He governed with knowledge. That's why he is Pope today. He was a guy who knew what he was doing and he did it well. In this case that means he buried the ugly thing. But in any western country that would be a crime. In a Middle Eastern country They would have his head. We might put him in jail. But at home in the Vatican, he decides what happens to him.

It is hard to understand how he can be brought to justice. He is the controlling figure in a sovereign state. This is a question of morals and the Pope in infallible in handling questions of faith and morals.

There is more here however, for public opinion or rather parish opinion may very well cause the pope to take his forty lashes. I don't know of any Pope who has resigned. Can any of you recall one who has done that. Well, I suppose that during the period of multiple pontiffs there may have been a resignation. But the assumption would be that the resigning Pope was not and never had been Pope. It will be interesting.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #908 on: March 31, 2010, 01:22:31 AM »
Thank you Brian. It worked.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #909 on: April 01, 2010, 06:02:41 AM »
Any reaction to Post 897?

Robby

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #910 on: April 02, 2010, 01:52:43 AM »
How can one not react to 897? The Church is poking us in the eye with a stick and they still think they can get away with it.

My concern is that the leadership covers it up. It is a sin for them and they must feel it but the message they send is that sin is ok if one doesn't talk about it. The actual sex involved is nothing. Confession seems to make it all well again.

We are seeing only a small part of the overall hoax. The 13 year old male child goes to confession and tells his tale of a little masturbation. The priest say's, "You must not do that. It is a sin. Say you are sorry and then say the Confiteor. Your penance is ..." The next week the boy is back with the same story. Now, the priest knows he has a live one out there. Next step is a little contrived hanky panky. Before one knows what has happened the boy has a partner who can show him some new tricks. Ain't life grand?

If the boy is smart he will know he's been had. But that happens rarely. Many boys turn into grown men and never recognize the nature of the hoax and for some reason the whole overall hoax never occurs to them either.

I attended a funeral the other day for a 55 year old man who was a close friend for many years. He was Catholic. The priest came, recited a few prayers, mispronounced the man's name, nodded to the bereaved, read a few prayers at the grave and left. Somebody slipped him a few bucks and he disappeared. Nothing personal,was said.  He said the things that have been said a million times before by priests, did not know the deceased, did not even get his name right. His job done he received his money and took off. We accept this hoax and many of us would not know what to do without it.

It's hard to blame the clergy for being human. They want sex too in spite of the celibacy oaths. I blame the parishioners. They perpetuate the hoax by encouraging these charlatans  to take them for all they are worth. They do it to themselves. Too bad.


Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #911 on: April 02, 2010, 06:24:20 PM »
Justin, your good sensible post and others you have written here should be tacked to the churches door all over the world.

Too bad that a large portion of the population does not want facts or realism. They prefer fiction and fairytales.

As for the resignation of Popes.....this from Wikipedia....

Quote
Precedents
In 1045, Pope Benedict IX agreed, for financial advantage, to resign the papacy. Pope Gregory VI, who to rid the Church of the scandalous Benedict IX had persuaded him to resign and became his successor, himself resigned in 1046 because the arrangement he had entered into was considered simoniacal; that is, to have been paid for. His successor, Pope Clement II, died in 1047 and Benedict IX became Pope again.

The best known example of the resignation of a Pope is that of Pope Celestine V in 1294. After only five months of pontificate, he issued a solemn decree declaring it permissible for a Pope to resign, and then solemnly resigned. He lived two more years as a hermit and has been canonized. The papal decree that he issued ended any doubt among canonists about the possibility of a valid papal resignation.

The last Pope to resign was Pope Gregory XII (1406-1415), who did so to end the Western Schism, which had reached the point when there were three claimants to the papal throne, Roman Pope Gregory XII, Avignon Pope Benedict XIII, and Antipope John XXIII. Before resigning he formally convened the already existing Council of Constance and authorized it to elect his successor.

Since Pope Benedict's namesake sold his office, it's a sure bet that today's Benedict could get more. He doesn't seem like the 'resigning' type. Seller maybe, but not resign.

Perhaps like Pope Calixtus he has some nephews that need a job. Can anyone imagine a 23, 24, and 25 year old starting at the top with their mistresses in tow at the Vatican. Calixtus wanted allies in the cardinals, he cared about power and keeping it, not about the church.

Durant warns us that more 'poopery' is to come from the Popes with nepotism rising after Calixtus.

Emily





Brian

  • Posts: 221
    • Brian's Den

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #913 on: April 03, 2010, 01:08:29 AM »
Brian: Thank you for the confirming opinion. The Atlantic adds another dimension when it observes that these priests are victims of arrested sexual development. They are fourteen years of age sexually and are caught in a vortex of solo sex and pornography. It is no wonder they relate to fourteen year old boys. Like fourteen year old boys they feel more comfortable with their buddies than with girls or women. What do psychologists say about the mental state of priests who engage and seek engagement with boys and not with women or girls? Do they see it as the Atlantic sees it? Have the journals covered this question?

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #914 on: April 03, 2010, 03:09:00 PM »
I remember a British novel (can't remember which one) that casually threw in jokes about the priest and "his choirboy", as if it was an accepted thing. And a funny one.

also casual comments about headmasters or senior boys in boys school, leaving the impresion that it's taken for granted that the young boys will e molested, and grow to molest in their turn.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #915 on: April 03, 2010, 05:23:01 PM »
Going all the way back to the start of civilization, how is this for one way to measure the "Story of Civilization?"

Slightly Used
By ROB WALKER
In each episode of the fascinating BBC Radio 4 series “A History of the World in 100 Objects,” Neil MacGregor, the director of the British Museum, uses one item from that institution’s collection as a jumping-off point to discuss humanity’s long relationship with made things. The journey starts, as you would expect, with something useful: a “stone chopping tool,” believed to be about 1.8 million years old, suggests the dawning of a “relationship between humans and the things they create, which is both a love affair and a dependency,” MacGregor says. “From this point on, we can’t survive without the things we make.”

For some reason this reminded me of a product that I encountered recently on a trend blog: a line of axes from the Best Made Company. These are lovely objects, remarkable for the colorful painted patterns on the handles. Each model has a name (“Gray Scale,” “Palimpsest” ) and costs $200 to $500. A predictable thought crossed my mind: how funny, how absurd, that the cutting tool, the ur-thing of functionality, has evolved into a premium-priced stylish object that seems more suitable for display than for use. But after listening to the first 30 episodes of the radio series (it starts up again in May), which bring the story up to about 300 B.C., I’ve had second thoughts about that glib analysis.

It’s striking how many of the objects discussed on the series are really ornamental items or decorated renditions of functional objects in versions clearly meant to serve a symbolic purpose only: an exquisitely impractical gold cape from more than 3,500 years ago; an elaborate bronze bell from fifth-century-B.C. China; a statue of a Mayan corn god; a representation of two swimming reindeer sculptured from a mammoth tusk during the last Ice Age. Clearly, humans did not need to wait for the Industrial Revolution or late-stage capitalism to begin coveting useless stuff.

One episode deals with an actual ax, called the Olduvai hand ax, from roughly 1.2 million years ago. Surprisingly, MacGregor produces Sir James Dyson, the vacuum guy, to weigh in on this object, and even more surprisingly, Dyson is pretty dismissive. Dyson points out that the Olduvai ax is rather big for a human hand and sharp on all sides, which isn’t practical at all. In fact, it seems more like a “show object,” he argues. “I don’t believe it has any intent — serious intent — behind it.” It sounds as if he’s on the verge of presenting the new Dyson Hand Ax, but then MacGregor’s voice comes on to sweep away doubts and assure us that “of course it is still a practical object.” (And since axes just like this one were used for the next million years or so, let’s just concede it was a very successful design.)

There’s no debate, though, over the nonfunctional nature of yet another ax in the series. Found near modern Canterbury, it is about 6,000 years old and made of polished jade that remains smooth, glossy and unblemished. The blade is sharp; it seems brand new, unused and, indeed, was never meant to be used. It could have functioned as a status marker, a raw thing of beauty or a powerful gift, MacGregor suggests, comparing it to a contemporary luxury watch and a “supreme object of desire.”

The program also notes that such axes are often discovered in burial sites — and this touches on a theme that has quietly recurred throughout the series so far. While our ancestors made a lot of stuff they didn’t need in order to survive in the day-to-day world, much of it did seem to have a kind of function that transcended that context. You and I might see it as useless to try to influence crop yields with statuary or your fate in some afterlife with a really pretty ax. But our ancestors probably saw these objects as being not only visually appealing but also having use-value beyond earthly measure.

The Canterbury hand ax was made from jade from the Italian Alps, suggesting that the fulfillment of object desire created complex trade networks over considerable geography. But the fascinating thing is that archaeologists have determined it was made from a hunk of jade near the top of a mountain — even though an equally beautiful ax could have been made from more accessible material at the base. Why? Possibly, MacGregor says, because the higher-up jade was closer to heaven, the celestial world. This makes sense only by way of a firm belief that such material is, by virtue of this fact alone, intrinsically better than identical material that happens to be easier to get at.

And so it is that history is deduced from objects: the beliefs of a culture reside in that jade, or so our archaeologists and historians believe as they scrutinize the material of a distant time. You can’t help wondering about some experts in the future examining trace remains of a pristine Best Made ax, smartly decorated, never used. Will such a thing tell a story about just what it was that we worshiped?



mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #916 on: April 03, 2010, 07:34:12 PM »
A friend and i were discussing the multiple stories of pediphilia in the news: priests, boy scouts, a man in suburban Phila. I recalled that i have had a major change in my beliefs about whether people are basically good or evil. In my philosphy course in college, Dr Kaluger asked us that question, as i suppose he did every Philosophy 101 class, every semester. At the time i responded that there are evil people, but i tho't most people were basically good, as i assume, every class, every semester concluded - we being young and optimistic souls.

 After decades of studying history and now adding 24/7 news channels who have to fill that time and want to fill it w/ excitment/adventure/the "abnormal," I now conclude that human beings largely lean toward evil. There is a broad spectrum and many people are good much of the time, but there is a much larger group who lean, in small ways or large ways, toward evil, even toward being despicable! I'm concluding that human beings have to work hard at being good, rather than the at being bad.......... at the same time, i, of course, think that most of the people that I associate w/ are, most of the time and in most ways,  good people............lol..............jean

Brian

  • Posts: 221
    • Brian's Den
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #917 on: April 03, 2010, 08:06:44 PM »
Quote
beliefs about whether people are basically good or evil

Jean - - -   You have opened up a can of worms here.

"How can activity be good or wicked? That which is performed with good intention is
good; and that which is performed with evil intention is wicked.... "

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions?

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme058.htm

Brian.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10014
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #918 on: April 03, 2010, 10:10:10 PM »
Quote
Jean - - -   You have opened up a can of worms here. - "How can activity be good or wicked?..."

You are right Brian, a can of worms indeed. It sounds very Plato-ish to me. As I recall, my encounters with Plato's Dialogs made my head spin. I've started reading your link, but will have to finish it tomorrow.

A thought about intentions: I had someone once tell me that it didn't matter what my intentions are/were, but how the recipient interprets the action. I don't remember the incident, but I did or said something with one intention and he took it another way entirely.


Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #919 on: April 04, 2010, 12:10:14 AM »
We look at earlier civilizations and see their tools and marvel that these ancient people were able to survive at all. A millennium or two from now archeologists may uncover some of the tools we use and wonder how we were able to survive at all. Things had to be plugged in to work or man had to use his own power to strike things. Imagine that. No one had any idea what the other fellow was thinking unless the words were spoken. My, my, how primitive they were in the year 2000.