Author Topic: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online  (Read 112676 times)

winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2009, 10:58:12 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks

      You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath,  Geraldine Brooks'  edgy  Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work.  How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo  Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?

The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then,  into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation  of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and  then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way.  This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain.
Discussion Schedule:

July 15-19  ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
    Sarajevo, 1940
 
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
 Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 30 ~ #3 ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
   Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5  Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
   Hanna, London, Spring, 1996 
August 6-August 10 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
   Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996 
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
   Hanna,  Gunumeleng, 2002 
August 16-August 20  Afterword

(click twice to really enlarge)

Topics for Discussion
July 25-July 30  ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;  Hanna, Boston, 1996

1.  What do you suspect is the reason for Father Vistorini's bitterness, which he drowns in the altar wine?  Why does he sense the altar boy is judging him?

2. " I am Pope everwhere except in Venice."  Why did Pope Gregory make this remark?  Why is Fr. Vistorini more concerned of late?

3. What effect did the invention of the printing press have on publishing in Venice?  How did the Jews view the printing press in Venice?

4. How does the priest's interest in his parishioners differ from the rabbi, Judah Aryeh's feelings for his congregation?  Can you explain this?

5.  How would you describe each man's weakness?  Does the author appear  to portray one more sympathetically than the other? 

6. How did the haggadah come into the hands of Dona Reyna de Serena?  What does she ask the rabbi to do with the book?  Does she have realistic hope for its return?

7.  What is it about the haggadah that startles the rabbi?  Can you describe it?  Why does he believe the illuminator must have been a Christian? 

8. Why does Vistorini say he will not pass the work, though he admits there is nothing that contravenes the Index?  What is the actual reason he will burn it?

9.  Was Galileo actually brought before the Inquisition?  What happened to him?
What do you know about the Index of the Inquisition? 

10. Why did Vistorini decide to allow the game of chance to save the manuscript from the flames?  How did it happen that the inscription was written in the book after all?  Would you say one man's weakness pervailed over the other's? 

11.  What similarities do you see in the societies of each of these stories that threaten the survival of the little book?

12.  What startling discovery does Hanna make in Boston that parallels Vistorini's? * Now that we have "laid eyes" on the formidable Dr. Sarah Heath, is she what we had expected from Hanna's description?

 
Hanna, Boston, 1996

1. Is Hanna's perceptible "edginess" attributable at least in part to the tense mother-daughter relationship?

2. Couldn't/shouldn't Dr. Sarah have tried harder years earlier?

3. Isn't a child's emotional well-being  every bit as important as the care of a doctor's patients?

4. Is a mother's deliberate silence about a child's father ever justified?  Understandable?  Pardonable?

5. Does this first frank conversation between mother and daughter fully explain  the reason for their poor relationship? 

6. Is this turn of events believable?   What if there had been no car accident?
 


Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information; Sarajevo Haggadah; Early Haggadah Manuscripts; Illuminated Manuscripts; Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts;

Discussion Leaders: JoanP, Ann , JoanK,  & Traudee

thimk

fairanna

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2009, 12:54:39 PM »
Claire your comment made me click on the link   I loved the colors. and one thing like I will agree the Petty girls were not really offensive He made women beautiful and I think Klimt did the same >>I loved all the colors , the patterns and one I loved well was the painting of the Beeches . .here in Virginia the forests remain full and the trees so close that even on a bright sunny day  only slivers of sunshine break through It is like moving through jade tunnels   Of course there are many open fields but where two lane roads run not far from where I live I enter those deep jade tunnels and feel I am somewhere else and Klimt's painting did the same..to me they were more exotic rather than erotic  so thanks for the link    It brought a bit of color to my day ....

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2009, 01:40:52 PM »
Welcome  Don, the Radioman!  Not only have you caught up with the rest of us, but you  have contributed much in your first post!  We are delighted to have you with us!  As I read your post concerning the insertion of Hanna's "affair" - it occurred to me that the author wanted to show that she is a living, breathing, sexual woman - and not merely a name attached to a conservator who will become our guide.  I think she succeeded in showing that she is a woman - she's like so many  young women now - for whom sex is just a way of getting to know someone - (I think she said that she hadn't had a love interest in a long time, so this was unusual for her, perhaps.)

It was when we met  the chief archivist with the silver-studded "nez retroussée"- that I began to think how young all of these conservators, museum directors...archivists are.  Have  you noticed that they all seem to be 30 or under?  Can you think of a reason for this?  What happened to the "seniors"  in the art world.

Would you believe I worked a crossword puzzle on Sunday - in which Klimpt and Mahler were both the answers I needed.  Thought there was something wrong when I had the "pt"  in Klimpt before the rest of the answer came.  Would you say that both Mahler and Klimpt were "modernists"  - in the late 19th century?  I am sensing modern liberalism coming into Vienna overwhelming the Hapsburg dynasty - as foreigners flood into Vienna.

The Judenfressers in the Purim Play still confuse me.  You are horrified at the term, calling it vulgar and disgusting and yet in the link that Mippy brings us, we  learn that

Quote
A Purim Spiel is usually a comic dramatization, as a traditional type of Jewish play, or informal theatrical production, with participants, usually children, wearing costumes that depict the characters in the story in the Book of Esther.

A favorite form of a Purim Spiel for children is enacted in puppet shows with the
Quote
Purim characters and their antics making the children laugh
.

The festival of Purim contains much celebration of comic relief because the decree of the wicked Haman was annulled and the Jewish people living in the ancient Persian Empire were saved from the edict of death and genocide instigated against them by Haman and instead rejoiced at the downfall of their enemies at the hands of Queen Esther and her uncle

Are you not laughing - as were the children watching "Haman, the Grosse Judenfresser" puppet shows during the Purim festival -  because you sense what is to come?

I'm learning so much - can't thank  you all for your wonderful contributions - you dazzle!





EvelynMC

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: July 22, 2009, 05:15:07 PM »
And here I was guessing it was going to be Jodie Foster.  ;)

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2009, 05:26:13 PM »
I just had to make a nit-picking observation  before my powers of recollection reflected its true insignificance.  Hirschfeldt stated that "last night. . . his wife. . .dragged him to hear Mahler's latest." In 1894, the time line of the chapter,   that would not be possible;  Mahler's "latest" work,  published in 1894 did not receive its first performance until the following year in Berlin. That was his 2nd Symphony.  If he meant the work preceding the 2nd,  that one came out in 1889 in Budapest which I suppose, would make it his 'latest'.  But he was born in Bohemia, and with the "modernist" movement arbitrarily adjudged as starting in 1890, one could include Mahler in that group.


And to add my input for casting the rôle,  I would not object to Jody Foster or Liv Ulman
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2009, 08:46:45 PM »
Welcome, Don, Radioman!  I'm so glad you found us here.  Nitpicking is one of my favorite things, so with your encouragement, I'll plug in a few.

Sachertorte: the Hotel Sacher in Vienna claims to have invented Sachertorte in 1832, 4 years before Sacher-Masoch's birth, suggesting it wasn't named after him.

http://www.sacher.com/en-original-sacher-tart.htm

In any case, eating it is the opposite of Masochism, since it's incredibly rich and good (the picture doesn't do it justice) especially with a big blob of schlag, the super-rich whipped cream.

HaPsburg: Traude, you mustn't fault the editor for that.  It's mostly spelled that way here.  Blame us English-speakers in general.

Wave cake: here's a picture that makes better sense of the waves.  I found another, better for showing really wavy chocolate layers, but it was flaky (oops, no pun intended--the site didn't load well).  The recipe was similar, though a bit lighter.  It didn't use all the butter.

http://www.fotosearch.de/FDC004/941524/

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2009, 08:47:12 PM »
To answer one of our questions concerning the Haggadah and whether there archives in Vienna:
Read this:

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2008/apr/20/sarajevo_haggadah37828/

I was unable to call up the actual archives of the Vienna museum where the Haggadah resided for a number of years starting in 1894.  
Maybe GB made up all the archive material???  Some folks in here know how to get into places like the Archives of that museum but not me.
I did notice that the Bosnia and Hertzagovinia National Museum has archives connnected with the Haggadah?Where did I see that???  I will investigate.

Radioman/Don, how nice to see you here.  Welcome, welcome!  Your posts always sparkle and you bring us much knowledge about classical music.  Your speciality!  ;)
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2009, 09:45:30 PM »
Here's an interesting article about Vienna and Austria before WWII.  Much to consider there and also there are other links concerning the largest German-speaking Jewish community in Europe.



http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005452
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ChazzW

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2009, 10:55:04 PM »
There was this in the Lola section that was affecting and well done - The suicide of Isak (with his little sister):
Quote
Embracing his little sister, he stepped off the bank, onto the ice. He walked out into the center, where the ice was thin. His sister's head lay on his shoulder. They stood there for a moment, as the ice groaned and cracked. Then it gave way.

On the other hand there's this not-so-subtle messaging from Serif to Lola/Leila:
Quote
“Come now!” Serif said, realizing that she was about to cry. “Jews and Muslims are cousins, the descendants of Abraham.

Diversity, Vienna, circa 1894 - from Hirschfeldt:
Quote
The warmth had tempted all kinds of people into the streets. Hirschfeldt took comfort in their diversity. There was a family, the wife veiled, the man wearing a fez, who had probably come all the way from Bosnia to see the heart of the empire under whose protection their lands had fallen. There was a Bohemian Gypsy woman, her spangled hem jingling in time to her swayed-hip walk. And a Ukrainian peasant with a red-cheeked boy riding on his shoulders. If the German nationalists wanted to purify this state of foreign influence, they would have many more obvious exotics to weed out before they got to the Jews, much less to a totally assimilated man like his brother
. But that "small voice" nagged at him..would the "young limes and sycamores" survive? Vienna was, after all "the laboratory of the apocalypse"

Diversity: Hanna, Vienna, 1996- Describes Raz Kanaha as one of
Quote
the magnificent mutts that I hope we are all destined to become given another millennium of intermixing.

My nitpick: Boston's Dana Faber is Dana-Farber
Chazz

Babi

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2009, 08:56:13 AM »
11. Do you think Hanna's  mother  would rather not see her daughter  at all, or is she simply that absorbed in this conference?

  Neither mother or daughter are comfortable with one another, and tend
to avoid meeting.  They try to keep up appearances, but that seems to be
all they have going for them.  I can't blame Hanna for resenting her mother's
attitude; it is extremely egoistic and belittling. I'd avoid her, too.

 CHAZZ, I enjoyed the vignettes you posted, both now and when I first
read them.  Another bit that made me smile was the heartlifting description of the mulberry tree, "thick with children, ‘perched on its branches like bright
Birds”. 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2009, 11:44:27 AM »
Here is a very interesting site where one might find references to the Sarajevo Haggadah.

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/acquisitions/details/vienna/#content
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2009, 11:53:43 AM »
joan P  a little reminder.and the mustery actor is . . . .
this is beginning  to irritate me. not fun at all. . . . claire
thimk

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2009, 12:03:32 PM »
I have a good friend from Auchsburg who once told me that German pastries and cakes use very little sugar.  Maybe its the whipping cream that makes them so rich.

About the question of Hanna and her mother's relationship, I think they are never going to get any kind of relationship going.  Hanna's bitterness, IMHO, is going to keep them apart, plus her mother's opinion of her bringing up of Hanna doesn't even come close to what it told to us by GB.  I don't like her mother's treatment of Hanna and Hanna's request of an opinion about the little boy's x-ray.  Things do not bode well for these two.  
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2009, 04:21:52 PM »
The "Vienna" chapter sets up a vivid contrast between the peaceful co-existence of Jews, Muslims and Christians in pre-war Sarajevo and virulent undercurrent of anti-semitsm in Vienna.  

I find a delicious irony that the restoration of the Haggadah has been entrusted to a vile anti-semite. Furthermore, the author has reversed the typical evil caricature of a Jew and has portrayed Mittl as a grotesque disease-ridden creature  which was the image that so often was a depiction of the Jews.

The clasps have been stolen and sold to the doctor who will in turn convert the pieces to jewelry. So will Hannah ever uncover that part of the mystery?  I don't think so.  The author has exercised her poetic licence to let the reader in on this important element which to me is perfectly plausible.
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2009, 05:17:01 PM »
oh Claire, I'm so very sorry!  I thought that you read besprechen's post - and new the actress with the film rights - is Catherine Zeta-Jones.  What do you think?  She's the face I see when we read the Hanna chapters now.  I'm really sorry, I thought it was out of the bag.

My computer is down - both of them.  I only get to run over here to my son's house for a short while each day...and must read too fast before I turn into a pumpkin.

Chazz, Babi, Anna - I think it's important that we notice the writing as you are doing - it's so  easy to get caught up in the plot - and the history, but really it's the author's use of language, images, expression that  makes this book the success it has become, isn't it?

Don the Radioman - that is too, too funny!  The Mahler dates.  I'm tempted to ask Geraldine Brooks about this - what do you think?  I think it's time to contact her- what do you think?  What would you like to ask her?

I do find the irony "delicious."  Please remind me why Mittl decided to steal the lovely silver clasps that arrived with the manuscript?  I forget.  Was it simply because they were lovely, valuable and no one would miss them?  I've a feeling there was another reason.

Annie, another question occurs to me after reading the article in the link you sent - this is what confused me -

Quote
Bosnia was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, so the book was shipped to Vienna to be restored. The original cover likely was ornate and valuable. The conservator, however, was inept. He discarded the cover, cropped the parchment and bound the book badly with cheap cardboard.

I do remember that he used inferior thread and did a poor job binding the pages together (could he see them?)  - but is that right?  Did he discard the cover?   Does anyone remember when the cover went missing?  I'd love to know if there were any records on the condition of the book when it arrived in Vienna, Annie...maybe they just don't exist.  Shall we ask her if she knows the answer to this question?


I think we need to consider the Kohen family who brought out the manuscript to sell it in 1894?  Where might the manuscript have come from before the family owned it?  Was there any reference there as to the appearance of the book - the cover?  Maybe this is all fiction too?

Another thing I remember a bit differently than some of you do - the reason why the Jews were marked for expulsion from what had been a very happy blend of ethnicity in Vienna - dating back to the time of Maria Theresa - I thought Jews were excelling in business, art, medecine and the German Nationalists wanted do something about this.  


winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2009, 05:58:30 PM »
I thought of catherine zeta zones but she is too beautiful. . . I can't see her as hannah.  I think Jodie Foster is more like it even though she is blondde.  thanks. . . claire

I'm reading  something else right now and cna't keep both going so will see you all alter.
thimk

EvelynMC

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2009, 06:40:14 PM »
Joan P: Mittl gave the clasps to Dr. Hirshfieldt to pay for the "new" medicine for his VD.

When Hanna was describing her friend Raz  she called him a mutt because of his mixed ancestry. He married a woman "who was the daughter of an Iranian-Kurdish mother and a Pakistani-American father. I couldn't wait to see their kids: they'd be walking Benetton ads."

What did she mean "walking Benetton ads" ?

 

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2009, 07:59:26 PM »
JoanP I regarded the reference to Mahler as just an aside, and as such Ms Brooks perhaps felt it was too insignificant to verify for historical accuracy. When I first read the passage I checked it out not to find fault, but rather to find what piece of music to which it referred. That's when I discovered that the "latest" work was five years old.

That now raises the question, should we expect perfection in every aspect of the story? If the answer is yes,  then she should be brought to task about it.  The other concern is that if she were lax in this instance, was she lax in others as well.  I began reading this book with an open mind;  I knew it was fiction based upon a real entity and  I expected the author to have done painstaking research before beginning it,  and to have fictionalized the points  at which she had to guess.  On the other hand,  if this is purely fictional  from start to finish then what I have posted here  is irrelevant and immaterial.

I read a lot of historical fiction and many authors will point out in the appendix which points are true and which are made up.

Discussions aside,  I am enjoying totally this book and would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone.
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2009, 08:31:37 PM »
Joan P: Mittl gave the clasps to Dr. Hirshfieldt to pay for the "new" medicine for his VD.
Yes, and as Hirschfeldt was about to take the clasps, he was moved by their beauty and was about to give them back and offer the treatment for free, but then he thought of how a jeweler he knew could make a gorgeous pair of earrings from the roses as a farewell present to his current mistress, and the feathers would make earrings for his wife, who he desires again since he has learned she has been unfaithful, and accepted the payment.  I don't think we'll see the clasps again.

I'd love to have a clearer picture of what this kind of clasp looks like.   They are supposed to hold the book open as well as keep it closed, and I don't know how that works.

Sadly, the "new" medicine probably didn't work.  Don't quote me, as I haven't rechecked most of the science, but the medicine is described as being arsenic-based.  Poisonous metals like mercury had been used to treat syphilis for centuries, and in 1909 Paul Ehrlich developed an arsenic-based medicine (Salvarsan, the "magic bullet") that actually worked well.  But even if the experimental treatment was a forerunner of this, Mittl was so far gone in the neurological damage of tertiary syphilis that nothing could have restored him to normal.

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2009, 08:38:56 PM »
Don, we also have to consider the self-centered, insular nature of the Vienna intelligentsia.  Maybe to Hirschfeldt Mahler's "latest" was whatever the Vienna Philharmonic had finally gotten around to playing.

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: July 23, 2009, 08:47:55 PM »
Joan P:
What did she mean "walking Benetton ads" ?

When Benetton started its successful line of clothing, they made everything in white, then dyed it according to whatever they thought was popular.  Somehow out of this came a slogan "the united colors of Benetton", and I think in the process they had a bunch of ads with multi-colored models.  I googled their ads and now they're just the standard set of models with the obligatory one in every four or five tawny or dark.

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2009, 10:53:03 PM »
PatH You are right, of course, about the "inventor" of the Sachertorte. I could not have been more wrong. Actually,  in my collection of cookbooks I HAVE inter alia a paperback by Marcia Colman Morton, The Art of Viennese Cooking, which quotes (on page 93) the recipe given out by the Hotel Sacher.

It IS true, however, that the word Masochism "is derived from the surname of the Austrian novelist Leopold von Sacher-Masoch (1836-95) ..." Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia, volume 17, page 66 q.v.

I too am a stickler for accuracy of the spoken and written word in all the languages I have. Accuracy was one of the essential requirements in the work I did. It is not my intention to split hair !

JoanP,  I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties with your computer and hope you'll soon have a working machine back in your house !

In the first paragraph of the Afterword GB tells us:  "While some of the facts are true to the haggadah's known history,  most of the [plot and all of the characters are imaginary."  

To repeat "... the haggadah's known history".
I take that to mean that the exact path of the journey will probably never be known.   But isn't the real grace, the miracle, the ultimate triumph,  in the survival of the manuscript? Isn't the very existence of the codex more important than the mystery which cannot be solved?

As for the characters:
Dr. Hirschfeldt is an imaginary character; Gustav Mahler was real. Exactly there is the distinction IMHO.  The concert date of a specific work does matter in this case; Don the Radioman was right, I believe, to point out the discrepancy.
You asked if it should be brought to GB.'s attention. Hmmm.  A delicate task, to be sure. What do we expect her reaction to be?

At the moment I have no questions for the author but will comment tomorrow.


ChazzW

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: July 24, 2009, 04:34:42 AM »

To repeat "... the haggadah's known history".
I take that to mean that the exact path of the journey will probably never be known.   But isn't the real grace, the miracle, the ultimate triumph,  in the survival of the manuscript? Isn't the very existence of the codex more important than the mystery which cannot be solved?
straudetwo  - This is always the impetus for historical fiction, is it not? That hole in the known actual history invites speculation, recreation, creative 'accounting'. Some authors do this better than others. Sometimes the smaller the gap between the known and the unknown allows for even more creativity and produces work of great literary value. Sometimes the bigger gap allows the bricklayers to weigh in, giving us a false sense of history. We each make our own judgement, and place our own value on the works we read.

I've always thought that what we call 'history' is a cultural generalization or artifact which changes over time and is often tied to recent experience. From greater distances, longer perspectives, the shadows which 'history' casts yield up different images. History is elusive, changes over time - at least our interpretation of it. And that may be a tautology. History is interpretation. The distinction between history and fiction is a fiction in itself, I'd argue.

Then again, there are lots of things I may argue with myself at 4 AM.
Chazz

Babi

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: July 24, 2009, 08:58:58 AM »
 I see Evelyn answered JOANP'S question. From the description of Mittl's
condition, I suspect it was far too late.

  Hair color is never a problem for an actress, CLAIRE. They happily dye
their hair any color for a role they want. Adapting for a role is all part
of the job. Jodie Foster, IMO, can effectively play any role.

  Wonderful commentary on history, CHAZZ. It is so true that history is
interpretation as well as facts. I find it pays to note who is writing the
history/biography, and to what purpose.

 I'm leaving with my older daughter this afternoon for a weekend in BAton
Rouge with my son and his lady.  I will try to get in some computer time
while I'm there, but a good deal will depend on their plans. 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: July 24, 2009, 10:14:14 AM »
JoanP,

If I am understanding this paragraph right, your interpetation of the reason for getting rid of the Jews in Vienna is correct.  I did check the copyright text and it is not verboten to use this text.

"In March 1938, Nazi Germany incorporated the Austrian Republic in what became known as the "Anschluss." Once in power, the Nazis quickly applied German anti-Jewish legislation to Vienna and the Austrian hinterland. The intent of this legislation was to exclude Jews from the economic, cultural, and social life of the former Austria. Officials closed Jewish community offices and sent the board members to the Dachau concentration camp. By the summer of 1939, hundreds of Jewish-owned factories and thousands of businesses had been closed or confiscated by the government."  From USHMM.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: July 24, 2009, 10:39:28 AM »
PatH, Traude, JoanP, Radioman, Aberlaine,etc.
I have been following all of the posts on a daily basis and there is some wonderful information being shared here!  Not only the book itself but the links and the history of the area around Vienna has been wonderfully forthcoming.  

I have seen art and the history of an artist mentioned in the book.
I have seen wonderful pictures of mouth watering pastries and cakes made in Vienna and its environs.
I have learned about Mahler who didn't really compose and present anything in 1894.
I have learned about how SDT's were treated back in those days.  Can't believe the use of arsenic and mercury.  Jeeeez!
So tomorrow we carry on our discussion wit a new set of Chapters.
And I finally reseachered C/Katherine Zeta Jones and now know that she is the owner of the movie rights and will probably be portraying Hanna.  
And, she was in "The English Patient" and played the patient's unfaithful wife.  Maybe won an Oscar for that part?
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: July 24, 2009, 10:47:22 AM »
Even if you never watch a video again,  DO WATCH THIS WONDERFUL VIDEO OF THE BAKER FAMILY OF PRE-WAR VIENNA PUT TOGETHER BY STEVEN SPIELBURG.

http://resources.ushmm.org/film/display/main.php?search=simple&dquery=%22Stan+Baker%22&cache_file=uia_FiYvQq&total_recs=8&page_len=25&page=1&rec=1&file_num=4891

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Frybabe

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: July 24, 2009, 01:47:28 PM »
Outstanding, Adoannie. Thank you so much for sharing that find.

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: July 24, 2009, 02:45:57 PM »
mot du jour - "tautology"  Thanks, Chazz - I had to look it up - found two meanings - the first I suspected -
"a technical notion in formal logic, universal unconditioned truth, always valid "

 - but the second meaning is one I suspect I am often guilty of doing - " (rhetoric), repetition of meaning, using different words to say the same thing twice, especially where the additional words fail to provide additional clarity  

Quote
'...history' is a cultural generalization or artifact which changes over time and is often tied to recent experience...History is interpretation. The distinction between history and fiction is a fiction in itself, I'd argue. Chazz
"

I'm enjoying this whole discussion!  I've been struggling to find the facts on which GB has based her fiction - and now I must consider that much of history is fiction as well.  Sigh.  I promised Anna I'd surrender to the fiction and forget the history.

Oh Evelyn, for goodness sake, of course Mittl the bookbinder sold the clasps for the VD treatment!  How did I forget that?  I'm relieved to be reminded it wasn't greed.  He was desperate for the treatment the doctor could have given him for nothing.  The irony Don talks about is evident in this episode, isn't it?  He sells the clasps for the treatment he could have received for nothing - that wouldn't have worked anyway!  The Jewish Dr. Herschfelt, not knowing the provenance of of the clasps (the haggadah) almost gives them back, as PatH tells us - his greed causes him to keep them -to give to the mistress he is dumping and the unfaithful wife.  That's not all.  The museum won't pay for the bookbinding job because the clasps are missing.  Oh, and the bookbinder is probably dead from the new arsenic treatment.

So who profited?  The unfaithful wife, I suppose, who comes out of it all with the earrings - and her husband, who will probably transmit the disease to her.  Can't you picture GB working out this plot, sharing the twists with her husband?

PatH - I'd like to see those clasps too.  I wonder if they were unusual for the time they were created.  Perhaps we'll learn more when we get to Spain.

Traudee, perhaps the Mahler discrepancy is not a good thing to point out to the author in our first communication with her, anyway.

I may purchase a computer today - which will spare these trips to my son's house to communicate with you.  Thank you Ann for filling in as our correspondant!  Wasn't it fun?  We loved having you.  Don't go away.  Has anyone seen, Claire?




EvelynMC

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: July 24, 2009, 06:47:04 PM »
Adoannie: Thanks for the video clip of pre-war Vienna.  It was very interesting.  Those people must have had very strong backs.

Joan P: Thanks for the explanation (Bennetton ads).  I had no idea what she was referring to.

And, by the way, I agree.  We shouldn't go nit-picking to the author in our first communication.

I am enjoying this book.  This is a re-read for me and I am getting a lot more out of it this time and am enjoying all the extra info in all the links.

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: July 24, 2009, 08:18:29 PM »
EvelynMc,

Its so good to see you here.  I am also in complete agreement with you on the author question.  Seems to me that this book won the Pulitzer prize for a reason and I am truly enjoying every minute of it.  Doesn't matter where there was fudging to make it more interesting since it is FICTION.   Glad you liked the video that I found in the first link to the UNMMH or what ever those letters are.  There is a lot here to talk about and when we get info from other places, it just adds to the fun of the discussion.

And as always, when I see your posts, I must ask about Gladys Barry.  Have you heard anything???  We are going up there in three weeks and I will take her phone number(her son's #) with me.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: July 24, 2009, 11:37:51 PM »
JoanP, I hope all went well with the computer purchase.  They have become essential in our lives.

May I add some remarks regarding the "Anschluss".
The word literally means connection and is far too innocuous in this case.
Austria became part of the Third Reich on March 13, 1938 by annexation. The world watched and did nothing.

Even Hitler could not legally expel innocent citizens from Germany or Austria simply because they were Jewish. But he had more subtle, more sinister methods at the ready. Years earlier he had become fixated with racial purity. Not long after he came to power in 1933, an Aryan Law was enacted. When American runner Jesse Owens won the gold medal at the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin, Hitler made derogatory remarks about Owens, who was black.

By 1938 Jews had begun to leave, gradually, unobtrusively.  Some went only as far as Switzerland (like Thomas Mann, whose wife was Jewish), many more went to America.  (Not one of the six Jewish students in my all-girls school were left at the end of that
year.) After annexation, Austrian Jews  also began to leave. Those who stayed in Germany and Austria had to wear a yellow star and were harassed.  

Back to the book.
Mittl was not a sympathetic character. He and Dr. Hirschfeldt (who was no paragon either) seem stereotypical to me; Hanna has packed a great deal of information into that chapter.  It would have been interesting to hear a little more about David, Dr. Hirschfeldt's brother.
David was clearly a member of a dueling fraternity. Members of that fraternity were instantly recognizable because of the dueling scars in their faces. They wore them proudly as an "academic distinction". (I remember being frightened as a child by the face of one of my father's colleagues, until father explained.)

By the time I arrived at the university in Heidelberg, all fraternities had been disbanded.  I still recall the general fear and the awareness of VD. We had learned all about the three types of STD In high school biology class, from the "lightest" (most curable) to the most severe: syphilis, also called Lues,  and its stages, ending in dementia. Mittl was in the tertiary stage. There was no hope.  (The details could have been a bit less graphic.)

Based on my own experience I do not think that everybody "envied Jews because they were rich".  Not all were extravagantly rich.
Envy and hate are detructive.

Regarding titles: Hitler scorned them. The members of the nobility swiftly dropped the "von" between first name(s) and surname. But that was then. Academic titles  continue to be used.  In a formal address, e.g.   "Professor Doktor Muller". (I've never heard "Doktor Doktor"  as an address.)
The Italians love titles.  An  engineer is addressed as  "Ingegnere", a doctor as  "Dottore" or, if female, as  "Dottoressa".
Old habits die hard. But what's the harm?  Suum cuique. To each his own.

ADOANNIE,  forgive me, but GB was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 2006 for March, an imaginative novel about the American Civil War à la Louisa May Alcott, featuring the father (!) we never meet in Little Women.

Who knows what the filmmakers will do with this book, what they will use and/or choose to omit. I have a very clear impression of the edgy Hanna in my mind.  She does not look like Zeta-Jones. ;)

See you  in Venice tomorrow ...




winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: July 24, 2009, 11:51:10 PM »
I checked in byt my eyes won't let me read so much text. having fun with some sci fi. . .the name of the wind  a real winner.
claire
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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: July 25, 2009, 12:25:25 AM »
Forgive this blatant act of self-promotion, but in case you are unaware of my Sunday afternoon activity, I host a 3-hour classical music radio show Here.  And if you want to know what I'm playing it is posted in Classical Corner. [Playlist
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2009, 08:58:14 AM »
Traude,
I stand corrected. ::)

We have not talked much about the clasps themselves. In your own opinion, are these particular clasps, so beautifully made, commonly put on every Haggadah????  What about the ability to use them for holding the book open while conducting a Sader?  Have you looked at the other Haggadah's that are in museums today??  http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ChazzW

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2009, 11:04:28 AM »
I've found that there are some books which give a short summary of the  basic thrust of the book and the author's main purpose (besides entertainment, making a living and  all that mundane stuff of life). I'll step out on this limb...it seems pretty sturdy... and say that in the book we're reading, it might just be this..."mystery" aside, familial relationships aside, love, sex and death aside....
From Raz (soon to be Raz the Rat) before he hits on her
Quote
“Well, from what you've told me, the book has survived the same human disaster over and over again. Think about it. You've got a society where people tolerate difference, like Spain in the Convivencia, and everything’s humming along: creative, prosperous. Then somehow this
fear, this hate, this need to demonize ‘the other’—it just sort of rears up and smashes the whole society. Inquisition, Nazis, extremist Serb nationalists…same old, same old. It seems to me the book, at this point, bears witness to all that.”

Big wheel keep on turnin'...It's still the same old story...

Chazz

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: July 25, 2009, 11:09:53 AM »
If anyone tunes in early to hear Don's program, don't be disconcerted.  The station is very different when Don isn't on.

ChazzW

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: July 25, 2009, 11:19:20 AM »
I hesitate to add more linkage -
La Convivencia
Chazz

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: July 25, 2009, 11:19:24 AM »
Annie, that's a really interesting Haggadah site.  I notice that the late 13th century one shows people with bird's heads to get around the graven image prohibition.  Next in time are three 14th century manuscripts from Spain, including the Sarajevo, and all of them have realistic human figures.  So evidently our manuscript was on the leading edge of the shift to being allowed to show faces.

The modern ones are kind of interesting, too.

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: July 25, 2009, 11:40:59 AM »
Traudee, I have "built" and ordered a new computer - it should arrive sometime next week.  I hope.  This is the pits. 

" You've got a society where people tolerate difference"  - Chazz - This is important, I think.  Is it greed or is it fear that causes one group to demonize another?  My question - do things ever really go back to peaceful ways, or will the break and bias remain forever.

Traudee, no, I can't say Mittl is a sympathetic character - but at least he had a real need for the money that the clasps would bring him.  He didn't steal the clasps for his own frivolous spending .
I would love to search to see if other manuscripts from this time - pre-printing press have clasps such as those described, Annie.  I'd also like to see the crude binding on the Sarajevo Haggadah on display right now.  Can't find any pictures of that either...the pictures all show the illuminated pages - and rightly so.


I must say I'm finding the vignettes, the portrayals of the fictional characters who come into contact with the book more and more convincing - and moving. as we go back in time.  Do you empathize more  with   the priest and the rabbi, than with Lola, Mittl, Dr. Hirschfelt?  Is there a reason for this?

Father Vistorini drinks to wash about bitterness.  I'm wondering what causes it.  The rabbi's wife thinks that celibacy is the cause - that he needs a wife.  Why do you think he's "bitter?"

ps. Don - computer is down, but radio works.  What's the name of your program?

Claire - waving at you!  Take care of those eyes... Traudee, what does your Hanna look like?