The Library

[Frybabe]

In the history repeats itself category here is a quote from C. J. Cherryh's book Hammerfall.

"One needs not erase history. One needs only fail to teach one generation of children. Fail with two, and the destruction widens."

[BarbStAubrey]

Makes me wonder frybabe when in the past was History not passed along and what were the reasons - currently I see more and more history being altered in order to be socially correct and with the suppression of history there is cultural change

[Frybabe]

I didn't say it was not passed on, like in all the old books and papers we have and a lot ot them now rendered into digital form. What they are, or were in my school back way back when, it/was just a bare bones look, but not much if any real encouragement to learn the greater picture. Case in point, maybe, was my high school world culture class (not world history, world culture mind you). It covered a lot of world history/cultures very briefly. I don't recall ever having been assigned anything in-depth for papers or class presentation. Our tests were mostly names and dates. Not a format I did well at back then. It was the only class I ever got a D in. Our American history classes were much better, and we had Pennsylvania Civics (required for graduation). The powers that be discontinued the class ages ago. Discontinued mind you, not even an elective, just gone. I was a bit horrified when I heard that. I was and am a firm believer that students should be taught least, at a rudimentary level, how our government works and why.

What we are getting a lot of now is the negative side of revisionist history.  But, I have discovered that revisionist history is not necessarily a bad thing since the term includes those who revise history to include newly discovered information about an historical event or person, such as new archeological finds or the discovery of previously unknown or long lost original writings.  I am having to revise my opinion of revisionist history.  As much as I distrust this AI business, I have to say that this is the best (better than I can do, anyway) brief description of revisionist history that I have found. This is Google's AI Overview:

"Events that often lead to historical revision include: the discovery of new evidence, changes in societal perspectives, technological advancements allowing for new analysis methods, and major political or social upheavals, with examples like the "The 1619 Project" re-examining slavery's legacy in America, the re-evaluation of the role of women in history, or the uncovering of previously unknown information about historical figures due to newly accessible archives.

Specific examples of events that caused significant historical revision:

The discovery of the "Donation of Constantine": This forged document, once widely accepted, was exposed as fake, leading to a major reassessment of early Christian history.

The Civil Rights Movement: Increased focus on the experiences of marginalized groups led to a re-evaluation of historical narratives regarding race and slavery.
 
The "New Left" movement: This political movement in the 1960s brought new interpretations of historical events, often focusing on social and economic inequalities.
 
The development of DNA analysis: This technology has allowed for the re-examination of historical events through genetic testing, particularly in forensic investigations.

The fall of the Soviet Union: The collapse of the Soviet bloc opened up access to previously restricted archives, leading to revised understandings of Soviet history.
The "Opium Wars" in China: This conflict between China and Britain highlighted the exploitative nature of European colonialism in Asia, prompting re-evaluations of colonial narratives.

Key points to remember about historical revision:

    Not always negative:
        Revisionism isn't always about distorting history, but rather about incorporating new perspectives and evidence to create a more nuanced understanding.

    Ongoing process:
       History is constantly being re-evaluated as new information becomes available and societal interpretations shift.

    Important to consider source and context:
       When analyzing revised historical narratives, it's crucial to evaluate the source of information and the broader historical context. "

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I agree that not learning how the our government is supposed to function is beyond comprehension - The bigger issues laid out - I've become aware that history retold in in the eye of the beholder - the hot button Civil War - most of my education was living in the north - my parents and grandparents were still more inclined to talk about the difference between Bismark and the Kaiser than American History - and like most northern kids we used various expressions like if something was done quickly and thoroughly often it was referred to as Sherman's march to the sea

My older two had most of their education in Kentucky and I remember my daughter coming home all upset as she learned how the women and children alone in their homes had the livestock taken and fields burned and other atrocities by northern soldiers and how Sherman did to those in the South "his own countrymen" that up till then was only done to stop invading armies and how people as they were leaving places in Europe burned crops and slaughtered animals to keep the Russians (bad guys in the 50s and early 60s) from taking over more of Europe - and so I could never tell her how that march to the sea was like a joke said by me as typical of how people referred to this horrible time experienced by southern women and children during the Civil War.

Ok my youngest is studying 5th grade history that included the Civil War here in Texas - he comes home all outraged with Lincoln - I never had put it together and so all I could do was listen - but all about how the war took place over 4 years and half way into the war, actually one year and 9 months Lincoln changes the purpose of the war to a fight over slavery and how most of the soldiers in the south never had slaves much less large land holdings and independence from a central government was what they were fighting about and then the class evidently got into it about how even if they wanted to get out they were fighting as a unit and couldn't just leave and Lincoln knew that plus it was all because the people in New York did not want to sign up and fight - and yes, I learned on my own many got new immigrants as they came off the boat to take their place with the advantage fighting in the war upon discharge they were given citizenship - anyhow another generation of kids seeing another side of Lincoln and explains why Lincoln's birthday in February wasn't a day off or celebrated in the south. 

Same event learned from different perspectives. I realized we look for and study what interests us and choose books that inform yes, but if they are not supporting what we can imagine or believe we hang onto our own slant on that period of history and accumulate all sorts of authors to support what we have come to believe. I've read several authors on the Civil War and have not found any who do not write from a slant based mostly from  where they grew up or what they learned as children - I could go on and on about how after the war congress or presidents didn't do anything to keep the south from sinking into poverty and how Blacks were not cared for or made equal in the north and how to this day there is a difference in how the average person saw blacks in the south and how even southern writers had to alter their story in order to be published in the north - thinking particularly of The Help - all this thinking is kept under the surface now, seldom spoken about but a resentment is there. 

Well if the affects of that time are lingering and here it is just over 175 years ago then I can't help asking how many other issues are still caught in conflicting story lines - I too, like you indicated, like learning new things especially how science today uncovers new aspects of history however, I'm seeing each author much as I see a professor who has facts to share but I have yet to see any share facts without their imprint rounding out the story - to read a variety of authors to get a more well rounded viewpoint is not always possible because I find authors too often congregate and again form groups of like minds along with who the buying audience is and where things are published.

More recently what really shocked me was watching a documentary about early writing and history - I was balled over - there were 6 professors that during the storyline which included actually sites and collected artifact the 6 DID NOT agree on timing of either the events or even the timing of ancient history so that a similar conclusion could be made - these were professors from Cambridge, Oxford, Munich, Jerusalem, Cairo and none of them could agree on historical TIMING... unbelievable.   

Still enjoy and like reading history but without saying it, I'm taking most history more as a myth - interesting to learn but any book is only one viewpoint and at that, even if we were there, we would see the same things from our different viewpoint of how the world 'should be' - I'm seeing that take place now with the recent passing of Carter - so much vitriol coming out of the woodwork - a lot from people who were still children in the 70s - no place have I heard anyone mention the many books he authored and I've read many who like to minimize his work with Habitat for Humanity as if he only constructed a limited number of houses without mentioning the vast network of volunteers he brought to the organization - to me after a few years his life was no longer measured by politics or his poor show as President and so I wonder what will be the historical views on this man - appears if the present is a bellwether his failure will overshadow his 38 years of volunteer work or the 32 books he authored.   

All to say I can see and agree with the aspects of revisionists history you are focused on however, I am seeing too much of it happening not to add to our understanding but to break us loose from our history and culture and to not just make room but overpower the viewpoint of our own history that is the basis for this nation's cohesion and yes, pride - anyone can remember all they want of the bad things anyone does but we don't further the culture and societal values just as weu don't further the success of any group by keeping their bad behavior and failures in their face. Sure we can make Thanksgiving all about the Pilgrims turning on the natives after Thanksgiving but to use that to dismiss they did have a moment of thanksgiving for surviving that could continue to be an example to carry on a tradition of being thankful and feasting as a way of expressing thanks for any prosperity we have experienced or hope to experience rather than focusing on the bad behavior that would have to be sorted out as well - was it bad behavior or two different mind sets and what was the way or rather what is still the way to manage two opposite visions for the future and life in that future.

And so it may be the word "revisionist" but to me revisionists are not about new evidence but rather taking convenient evidence to change societal perspectives. One more, I am also often seeing authors so wrapped up in their finding new evidence from the past that they use it as the panacea as if it is central and therefore the entire scenario of the time is being changed rather than seeing the new evidence as a piece of the event.

Haha yet another, my mind just will not quit - but anyhow I'm also seeing much of those into revisionist history coming from a mindset of victim - because such and such happened that was cruel and unjust it gives them a pass to bring into play their own bad behavior and that line of thinking I'm finding creeping into many historical happenings - Yes, most history is part of a power play to accentuate the behavior and thinking of the winner in a war and that line of thinking or as some today call propaganda can overlook the real intent or underlying reason for how things evolved which is part of the story however... an example as Google's AI Overview says about European Colonialism during the Opium wars - I'm remembering the story as told in a movie that did show many European Embassies - even shots of each nation's military band performing each morning with the raising of the nation's flag and to suggest that was not a factor seems as if the revisionists are attempting to change the narrative to a clash of cultures ignoring that the war started because of the burning of opium ready for market and owned by the Brits. Switching the focus to the European Imperial desires, and I'm guessing here because a factor not included in the Chinese made movie but at the time China was trying to rid itself of the use of Opium and the Opium dens therefore, rather than a nuance of issues I get the sense that revisionist simply want to create a blame game so that the west looks like the bad guy.

All to say Google's explanation for me is missing the mark - I don't disagree with what they say but there is bunches missing and a mindset not being given its do...  My hope is that so many seem to look at the differences in history and in life as if a bunch of teens or at least teens from my thinking where as this teenage point of view I see carried on into most young people's 30s where what disappointed them in their childhood that they see as having affected opportunity is because of bad parenting - it is as if they are at war with their parents and everything has to be either good or bad and any authority figure is automatically bad - only much later today but earlier for most of us we realized the constraints and mindset our parents lived with and could better understand the choices they made that affected us - this is the stage I'm seeing the revisionists as defined by Google - there has to be a bad guy and since we have had history as an authority the authority figure must be the bad that needs to be replaced and even make a hero out of what they decided was the victim in the story. My hope is they grow past this typical teenage viewpoint.

OK my encyclical 

[PatH]

Barb and Frybabe, That certainly is an interesting list of formerly popular books, and the lister certainly picked my former reading tastes. I read all  9 of the books he mentions by name, some of them many times, and of the series writers he mentions, Stout, Chesterton, and Orczy, I read a fair bit.  Maybe it's time for me to check some of them again.  I thought  Sabatini was corny but fun even the first time. I reread some Orczy a few years ago and still found reasons to like the books. Chesterton I'm pretty sure would survive.

[bellamarie]

Well, I finally found a minute to peek in and see how you all are doing.  My Christmas went great and then got food poisoning on Dec. 29th from eating French onion soup at an eatery we frequent.  I spent a couple days in the hospital and came home on New Year's Eve afternoon.  So, hubby and I celebrated watching the ball drop on tv.  No casino for us this year. 

So much has been going on I don't know what this world is coming to.  Barb, reading about your family cleaning up after the hurricane seems lightyears ago with the now wildfires in California.  Such devastation is beyond comprehension for me.  I look at the pictures on tv of the destruction of the acres and acres of land, homes burnt to the ground and with the hurricane washed away and can't help but be reminded of the pictures I see from Biblical times.  It truly breaks my heart.

Without getting political, I have to say the mayor and governor of California need to resign for their incompetency in not preparing for the Santa Anna winds which were predicted that ignite possible fires.  Who drains a reservoir, destroys damns, along with directing natural rainwater to flow into the ocean knowing the absolute need for water?  Not to mention cuts back millions of dollars from the fire department and insurance companies cancelling fire policies just months ahead of the season for fires.  Barb, there are many "conspiracy theories" and rumors about all these disasters and it does make one wonder if there are any truths in any of them.  But I will refrain from expressing my own personal opinions because I do believe come January 20th help is on the way and truths will come to light.

History, hmm... I think Mark Twain was a pretty insightful man and found these quotes of his interesting for today's world.

All MARK TWAIN Quotes about “History”

“Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities.”

“The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice.”

“The past does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.”

“Peace by persuasion has a pleasant sound, but I think we should not be able to work it. We should have to tame the human race first, and history seems to show that that cannot be done.”

“I said there was but one solitary thing about the past worth remembering, and that was the fact that it is past-can't be restored.”

“History never repeats itself; at best it sometimes rhymes.”

“It's so damned humiliating.”

“By law of periodical repetition, everything which has happened once must happen again and again -- and not capriciously, but at regular periods, and each thing in its own period, not another's and each obeying its own law.”

“History teaches us that whenever a weak and ignorant people possess a thing which a strong and enlightened people want, it must be yielded up peaceably.”

And the most famous quote by George Santayana:  "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

The quote "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it" by George Santayana holds immense meaning and importance in understanding the impact of history on our present and future. In essence, Santayana is reminding us that failing to learn from our past mistakes or gain insight from historical events can lead us down a path of repetition, perpetuating the same errors and consequences. This quote serves as a cautionary reminder, urging individuals and societies to actively engage in studying history and drawing wisdom from it to avoid recurring calamities. Understanding the significance of the past is crucial for personal growth and evolution as well as for the progress of civilization. History provides us with a treasure trove of knowledge, lessons, and examples of both the triumphs and failures of humanity. By exploring our collective past, we gain valuable insights into the consequences of certain actions or decisions, empowering us to make better-informed choices in the present.

https://www.socratic-method.com/quote-meanings/george-santayana-those-who-do-not-remember-the-past-are-condemned-to-repeat-it#google_vignette

I'm thinking too many people in important positions choose to ignore history, they choose to not learn from it, they have their own personal agendas and don't even care or consider the consequences that will incur to others' lives, so long as they are able to gain and pursue their own self interests.  But what do I know...

I looked at the link of the books to read in 2025 and I shake my head and ask, who on earth chooses these books?  I loved A Gentleman in Moscow and hope to watch the series one day on tv.  Much like everything else worth watching, you have to pay to live stream it.  I simply can't keep up with all the prices and packages offered.

You all have a wonderful day and dare I do not forget to wish you a very Happy & Healthy New Year!  "2025" The best is yet to come.

p.s.  My hubby bought me the book Melania for Christmas and I am anxious to read it.  No matter what anyone thinks, I find the First Lady a very interesting person. She could have stopped with being a beautiful model and made plenty of money doing so, but instead like her parents she pursued a life of much more purpose, she gained much knowledge through education and traveling, learning many different languages, and now brings such grace and calm to the White House. She is a wonderful example of how a Slovenian immigrant from Yugoslavia can come to the United States, take ten years to become a citizen and go on to become the First Lady of the United States.  Dreams can and do come true through strong work ethic, dedication, commitment and sacrifices. 

Ciao for now~   

PatH., you and I were posting at the same time.  Nice to see your thoughts on the list of books.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, one thought I didn't mention is that I don't think his descriptions would be very helpful in choosing books to read.  Look at his description of A Gentleman in Moscow,which we discussed in great detail here. He says it's a nice book, but he doesn't give us any idea of what it's really like--how clever, and ironic, and surprising it is.

What a bummer about your ruined holiday.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ouch bummer way to spend the holidays bellamarie - and yes, the California fires are beyond sad - the loss of so much personal history along with the loss of security that people feel they can sleep soundly expecting safety - reading today how a surgeon and his son prepared for such an event and they so far kept their small cul-de-sac of homes safe however, it took their constant vigilance with hose in hand and without sleep for days that even included the two of them plus one other neighbor that stayed behind chasing away a gang of looters - but yes, to hear over and over the lack of resources - not only are other states but even Mexico is sending fireman to help.

Haha leave it to you Pat to pickup on the simplistic way books on the list were described - Did you get a chance to see the movie of A Gentleman in Moscow  From what I can find it takes a subscription to Paramount which I don't have and enough is enough with all these paid subscriptions. Actually I'm not sure I want to see the movie or any upcoming series on TV - I have my own picture of how things look and the bearing and look of the various characters that I prefer - we shall see - as the saying goes never say never.   

I was going to download Melania bellamarie but it will have to wait a couple of weeks... got caught up in a discussion about empathy versus love and holding accountable bad behavior which others believe is not love since we are supposed to love each other not judge which they accompanied with mostly biblical quotes about loving people regardless of sin - I needed a way to better understand my own values as well as those who have what to me is a very different concept and I needed not just Biblical quotes -

First thought went to Frankle's Man's Search for Meaning where he uses his experiences in Auschwitz and other camps - he tells one story about  his choosing behavior different then other prisoners when after Auschwitz was liberated but not yet evacuated, he along with a few others walked out the gate along the road adjacent to fields of I think it was growing corn. In their outrage over their experience the others destroyed as much of the crop as they could - I know he looked at that as bad behavior and the message I remember was it did not matter your life experiences there is no excuse... I needed to read the book again - has to be at least 50 years ago that I read it. When looking for it found several others books that will not download on my older computer and so I've ordered them - they should be here by Monday.

I think I know my own thinking until there is a challenge to it and then to put things in words I need to sort myself out and also see what the difference others have is all about. One that I did download and I'm finding helpful in many ways is Viktor Frankl and the Psychology of the Soul: A Guide to Finding Meaning and Emotional Wellness by Daniel Schonbuch

I'm seeing more than simplistic book descriptions - even having a similar political choice I'm finding many take that as shorthand to other attitudes and beliefs that many times are not mine at all and this shorthand viewpoint often means agreeing with and accepting certain theories in addition the acceptance of certain rumors - I'm worn out with all of this to the point I need to clean house so to speak and then, be able to put my thoughts into a few words rather then 10 paragraphs of words. I'm hoping the few books I chose will help me do just that.

Well back to bed - seem to be my new sleep pattern - I wake up after 4 or 5 hours so fully awake there is no going back - so I catch up with email and frequented web sites while drinking a sleep inducing tea and then after about 2 hours ready for bed again that this time is for about 3 to maybe 4 hours - tra la and such is the new sleep schedule 

[bellamarie]

PatH., Yes!!  I'm so glad you pointed it out how he gave so little about the book,

"He says it's a nice book, but he doesn't give us any idea of what it's really like--how clever, and ironic, and surprising it is."

When I read that my mouth dropped because I have never gotten that book out of my head because of the impact it had on me.  From the very beginning of the trial where Count Rostov is found guilty due to a poem, he didn't even write himself but refused to admit it in court, was astounding to me, then to read how he manages to live under house arrest, and escape is simply mind blowing!  No book has ever stayed with me the way this book has, that is why I asked, who on earth chooses these books. I do know our dear Jonathan had recommended Amor Towles, Rules of Civility.

Barb, you make a good point in saying you may not want to see the series because you have your own personal feelings of how the characters look and would like to keep it that way.  I do wonder if watching the series would change my outlook as well, so as you say...we shall see. 

Well, getting caught up in

a discussion about empathy versus love and holding accountable bad behavior which others believe is not love since we are supposed to love each other not judge which they accompanied with mostly biblical quotes about loving people regardless of sin - I needed a way to better understand my own values as well as those who have what to me is a very different concept and I needed not just Biblical quotes.

would certainly make for an interesting discussion as best. I hope you were/are able to come to terms with your own belief system that brings you peace of mind. I too have broken-up sleep patterns and do my best to work through them, even if it means I am playing Words with Friends at 2:00 a.m. on my iPhone. lol

Ciao for now~

[Frybabe]

Hey, Barb! Last night I ran across a YouTube interview with a guy named Michael Shellenberger. Turns out he is the first endowed professor at the University of Austin as chair of Politics, Censorship, and Free Speech.  https://www.uaustin.org/people/michael-shellenberger He has a long-standing interest in environmental issues spent time on both sides of the movement. The interview is mostly focused mostly on the Los Angeles fire and explained a few things I was not clear about regarding the situation including how many of the towns in the Greater Los Angles area do not have their own fire stations or companies. They must request assistance from the Los Angeles County Fire Department. He also explained how the various fire components of the county, when needed, must all meet at a staging area before being assigned to fight various fires. That explains why I saw so much fire apparatus lined up in one place just sitting there waiting for assignments.  Anyway, here is a link to the interview if you are interested in watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4JjmzuycRo&list=PLrnxkCXk-UmU2fIShUfX_dGAqIxRpxcIT  It is rather lengthy.

BTW, what he says about intellectuals made me chuckle a little since I would consider him one.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks frybabe - Talking about Los Angeles - I only read and was really surprised that a big portion of the water that services the area is PRIVATELY owned - I only read that a billionaire is the owner and need to learn more - I assumed the water was controlled by either the state or a municipality - I know my water here in Magnolia is from a private company but I thought that was only because this was a very rural area till about 5 years ago - I'm wondering now if it is more usual for water to be in the hands or private individuals then owned or at least managed by either a municipal district or a city of size.

I'll read the article later tonight - like many I'm caught up watching TV today... a very uplifting however, very different inaugural address.

[Frybabe]

I think it depends, Barb. I lived in several homes that were not near municipal water. The first site was part of just a block of homes built outside of the local municipal water company's range. The house originally had well water and  a septic tank. The second was part of a real development where the builders built and owned the drinking water system but we had a septic tank until new EPA regulations and standards forced the developer to build a community sewage treatment plant.  My apartment complex is serviced by another small water/sewage company. I don't know who owned the system before, but the new kid on the block, Veolia (British company) owns it now. They have been buying up a lot of private and small municipal water companies. They probably have some larger ones too. Their website (Veolia North America) claims to service over 550 communities nationwide. Aside from owning or managing water and sewage, they are also into owning or managing sustainable energy. So, I would say it is pretty common.

[BarbStAubrey]

Where I am trying to make the connection is if the water is privately owned that must mean they control the water from its source the creeks and rivers the emanate from the source to wherever the processing plant is located or even the damn that controls the flow and produces an additional source of energy or is all that parceled into separate ownership.

The one I read about in California evidently was responsible for the flow of water to be sent to the ocean rather than I guess to reservoirs servicing Los Angeles -the part that really baffles me is if the water company owns the entire system from source, river and it would have to include the riparian zone, as well as damns then how do environmentalists that I think of as influencing an elected governing body, how do they influence the private owners of water to get them to tear down damns or route rivers to ares that preserve wildlife rather than to service communities.

I just never thought of this before but hearing how this private owner of, I think I read half the water that had been going to Los Angeles is now directed to the ocean in order to preserve a certain fish that environmentalists were urging the fish's protection - were they influencing the owner of this, I guess corporation unless he is an LLC but owner of this water system and how much does the owner control by owning this water system taking in the fact that it would include the source, rivers, land on either side, and does this owner build the damns or did he get some sort of help from either the State or the Feds and if so, what help is available to build damns on private land or is it that water is so valuable a government will fund and maybe even service damns for private owners - on top of each damn usually produces electricity and that is another huge business that the owner may have sold rights to or maybe that is the swap with another who builds the damn that means they will have total rights to the energy produced by the damn.

Shoot Frybabe the more I think on this the more questions pop into my head - and then on top to realize the water company is usually alone servicing an area and so we are subject to their pricing and the flow they allow that as a homeowner is probably adequate however, as we see, it was not adequate for large fires at the owner's choice.   

[Frybabe]

For California and other Western states water rights are a big issue. For all states, though, water use involves regulation by states and the Feds. Overall, the Fed regs rule. The states can add stricter or more regs, but they must adhere at the least to the Fed regs. It has been a while since I delved into water issues, and most of my interest has been with aquifers, which, BTW, has at least five (if I remember correctly) levels of regulation controlling how and for what these aquifers may be used. I have not looked into water taken from surface waters.  While I haven't delved in the California situation, I don't think private entities can just do as they please without regard to those regulations. But you know, money speaks, political favors and bribery speak. The EPA's website has a wealth of information, but it sometimes takes a bit of digging to find exactly what you are looking for. This is the Laws and Executive Orders page which includes the Clean Water Act (1972) and the Safe Drinking Water Act. You can go to Regulations for the link to water regs by state. https://www.epa.gov/laws-regulations/laws-and-executive-orders,  or you can go the water topics page https://www.epa.gov/regulatory-information-topic/regulatory-and-guidance-information-topic-water.

The EPA's website is amazing, with a wealth of information about topics within their purview.  It is well worth taking the time to browse. Years ago, it was essential to my research for a paper about aquifers (which got me high praises from the professor). If you have youngsters in the family looking for a topic to write a report about for class, I suggest they look here for inspiration. https://www.epa.gov/ main page  Check out the Environmental Topics page

[BarbStAubrey]

Living in Austin we were on top of a large aquifer but what I read and wish now I saved, the water came from a spring in the mountains - I don't know much about water other than how the rights to water from a river affects the land adjacent to the river - Here in Texas most river front property includes up to as much as the middle of the river or if a wide river, a certain distance into the river - it was part of the knowledge needed to help buyers and sellers of property along the river but looking at water for community drinking or damning for energy never crossed my mind till I recently read that article pertaining to the lack of water to fight fire in California. Thanks frybabe for the tip on the EPA - I guess my years in RE my first thought is ownership and the responsibilities of ownership along with how water is made available to the public if it is privately owned. I can see how an aquifer could not be privately owned but a spring and mountain snow melt - who owns what - looks like another question to find answers for.