The Library

[BarbStAubrey]

Tra la - for some reason, I think I shared earlier, when your photos come up Bellamarie I only see white space - well... I got the bright idea and it works - not on the earlier photos but the more recent ones - if I click on the space the direction to 'open image in a new tag' voila the photo - your latest of lovely Spring bouquet on a small round table in front of a window in your house - now that is excitingly wonderful - not only seeing the photo but this one is so bright and full of Spring - thanks

Ginny all those roses - and with no care - amazing - Ginny what kind of rose are the pink ones - are they a climbing rose or a roadside rose - love the color and against the red roses they to me are a real show. When you mentioned using a Golf Cart - it must be a 'thing' in the Carolina's - Katha talks about getting one - evidently Golf Carts are 'THE' public transportation used, mostly by elders, all over Saluda - as impossible as it sounds to me Katha and Gary are in their early 70s now and where they still walk and hike they are finding their walks to town are not as easy if they are bringing home purchases and then just the fun of scooting around town in a Golf Cart to be part of the parade of friends all doing the same thing.

Ouch Frybabe - our past does bring down the curtain at times - all the shock and confusion and at times anger at God knows what in spite of your logic kicking in - sorry - at times I think we all live in the fantasy of a science fiction improbability till it becomes a shocking reality.

Looks like there is no holding back the virtual world - it seems to me it was only a year or so ago we were reading how some were still not taken with the idea of AI and we were making in fun of the virtual voices that answered most phones and queries from places like the electric company or Amazon and would laugh the next thing it would be the Sheriff's office. You are one of the few I know who enjoys listening to books - I did listen when I was driving long distances but around the house I'm walking all over doing here and there - if I am sitting in one place where I could listen I get annoyed because there is no pausing to take in what I just heard or interrupting to read again a sentence and so I've been fascinated reading of your experiences listening to books.  I could be wrong but I get the impression the books you like to listen to are usually novels - when you listed the early audibles included tech manuals and instructional manuals I thought how is hearing better without pictures  - ah so and that is what makes the world go round as the saying went - now I do like YouTube for instruction - again, seeing computes better for me.  - One more, I've heard of Cory Doctorow but never read him and thinking of trying his How to Destroy Surveillance Capitalism

Well interesting day - been raining all day and not only was a stiff and hurting getting up today but unless sitting it was not a good morning - I was rassa frassing about everything - listening on the news to all these folks predicting, not hoping but predicting, based on this or that evidence from historical to pendulum swinging and this bit of news or the other, the most recent change in society that we are due for a very different kind of Pope - as one said maybe not a John Paul II but not a Pope more interested in changing the politics of the world through the power of his office - well here I am again rassafrassing - no one is taking into account that of the 252 Cardinals, Pope Frances installed 209 of which at their consistory they professed their faith, an oath of fidelity AND 'obedience' to the Pope - this may or may not affect who wins the selection of becoming our next Pope - we shall see however, the idea of others being so certain for some reason today drove me up the wall...

Then it hit - about lunch time - I realized like it or not I just got old and I was hurting because the arthritis had my hip and more recently the knee on my other leg along with the sciatica in my spine all banging away because of the rain and to feel less down here I was succumbing to my weakness for sweets - I had iced cup cakes in the freezer that I pulled out enjoying with my coffee feeling sorry for myself and of course as we all know sweets are the worst for any ache and pain but especially arthritis and all I was really doing was forgetting I got old and so being out of sorts was all because I was not conscious of my reality - lordy talk about living in a fantasy world and so believe it or not like a petulant child instead of laughing at myself I got pissed and stormed off to bed for a nap... hahaha - I ended up sleeping for 5 hours and woke still in pain but I could finally laugh at myself

And then like the wand of some Angle trying to cheer me up I'm poking around my recent kindle purchases and found this gem...

THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT FORMS OF LAUGHTER and they all help us cope with this meaningless planet. Apparently, there is actual science behind laughter. As the original woman in STEM, Elle Woods, once said, “Exercise gives you endorphins. Endorphins make you happy. Happy people just don’t shoot their husbands; they just don’t.” Laughter increases your intake of oxygen; stimulates your heart, lungs, and muscles; and increases the endorphins that are released by your brain. If we do the girl math, laughter is basically mouth Pilates. The endorphins released through laughter also have pain-relieving properties that can temporarily relieve physical discomfort. It’s basically loud Advil. Laughter can also be used strategically to help us out of many awkward situations. It’s taken years to perfect the timing, nuance, and variation of our giggle to smooth over the cringiest moment. Laughter is a great form of nonverbal communication to convey humor, bond with people, and create understanding. Also, true intimacy comes from laughing at the same time with someone else.

I'm thinking I need to make a few posters to tack around the house that say Exercise Laugh Giggle Grin

then - oh what a day - I decide I'm not in the mood for food that is typically eaten for supper - I want a hard boiled egg... well you guessed it - I put a few eggs on to boil and became so caught up in catching up with email and my usual websites - answering email I completely lost track of time - all of a sudden I'm smelling something that almost smells like food and it hit me - could not move fast enough but sure enough the last bubble of the last trace of water in the bottom of the pot with two of the 5 eggs having burned spots on their shell - quick pull the pot off, turn the knob off and dash the pot over to the sink where when I  turn on the cold water as water hits the pot it was like a cannon exploded - not only the sound but I had hard boiled egg all over even into the dining area - hanging off cabinets, on the floor, all over the counter tops  - everytime I thought I had it cleaned up I could smell - eggs have a distinctive smell all their own and sure enough would find another bit - finally looked up and egg was hanging on the side of the cabinets way up high so I had to get my step stool to reach - what a day... for sure all I can do now is laugh and giggle - this was an explosive day... no quiet tinkling of birds or quiet raindrops it was an inner storm with lots of donner and blitzen. 

[bellamarie]

Oh, my Barb please forgive me for laughing out loud at your descriptive disastrous day.  Eggs everywhere, I was sure you were going to say you fell when cleaning up the eggs hanging on the sides of the cabinets way up high.  I immediately thought of the book Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day

From children’s book legend Judith Viorst comes the perennially popular tale of Alexander’s worst day. Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day is a story that belongs on every child’s bookshelf.

Alexander could tell it was going to be a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day. He went to sleep with gum in his mouth and woke up with gum in his hair. When he got out of bed, he tripped over his skateboard and by mistake dropped his sweater in the sink while the water was running. He could tell it was going to be a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

It was a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day. Nothing at all was right. Everything went wrong, right down to lima beans for supper and kissing on TV.

What do you do on a day like that? Well, you may think about going to Australia. You may also be glad to find that some days are like that for other people too.

I hope you feel better and have a much better day today.

As for thoughts on the choosing of a new Pope, I can honestly say I am praying for a Franciscan, even if as you say Pope Francis
" ...taking into account that of the 252 Cardinals, Pope Frances installed 209" and yes, while they did profess their faith to him when installed, they must first and foremost give their obedience to God who is infallible.  I do feel that the Catholic church has realized in today's culture we must remain truer to the doctrine and scripture more so than ever.  Giving into the controversial modern-day culture can and will erode the dogma of the church.  I believe people are wanting and needing more traditional leadership not only in their religious lives but also demanding it in our government with the results of the mandate in this past presidential election. 

Frybabe, I am glad to hear there is hope for a remission for Oscar.  Keeping him in my thoughts and prayers.

Got to run... today is Bible study & Euchre Day at the church. lol 

[ginny]

Thank you, you all are very kind about my gift, I agree, of the garden this year. You can't see the pink ones to the left, nor the right side, which has ...you mention John Paul II, Barbara, that's the name of the rose, a huge white one which I think is the finest I ever saw. To the left you can't see my favorite pink one in pots, Belinda's Dream,   which I also think is the finest pink I have ever seen. If you look those two up you'll see why. You can't (obviously) kill either.       

Barbara, you asked what that pink one was on the photo, however , and I don't KNOW! And in person it's even more beautiful. I  tried all last year to root cuttings of it, no go, I did not plant it that I know of and it's just spectacular. I tried SO hard to root that rose, with no luck at ALL. If any of you know how, please advise.
There's also a very strange one  which looks like a red poppy I've never seen before, dark red with a black center, a single bloom,  could that be some kind of root stock? No clue.

EGGS!!  Good heaven's Barbara, you put my 2025 Easter EGG STORY to shame. I am glad with all  that boiling water that you weren't hurt.  I can't beat that one! I do notice that we need to be more careful lately, I put my own hand back at Christmas IN the pot to test the boiling egg, which was pretty darn stupid. At least you didn't do that!

[ginny]

I have just come from finishing the 5th showing of the Mirror and the Light on PBS, and this one was chock full of hints and movie directions, not a good one to miss. Was interrupted last night again in the watching, and this is not an episode to not focus on, and took lots of notes, as the MOVIE is stating its case and how it's going to go.

This has taught me that there's a difference in history, no matter how well we are steeped in it, historical FICTION, and a movie presentation which, after all, is Ars Gratia Artis as the famous roaring lion symbol says.

Art for the Sake of Art.

It makes sense, all of it. Now. talking only about the movie now, Barbara asked SO many good questions. These are the best answers I can give:

1. Why did Suffolk stand up and defend Thomas Cromwell when they all attacked him, and Norfolk tore Thomas's seal of office off his neck? We thought Suffolk was on the other side?

This has an antecedent in one of the early installments of the movie,  when Suffolk, in about the most pronounced non sequitur I ever saw, suddenly in private audience with Cromwell  and Henry in the middle of some argument about what's to be done, apropos of nothing, burst out do you remember when we boys  did XXXX, Harry? And the two of them went off on a long story about the fun they had in going somewhere, some escapade. Distracted Henry no end....Everybody laughing.

This was repeated in this very episode where Henry  suddenly in the middle of a very serious discussion with Cromwell suddenly bursts out to do you remember when we rode down to the Weald?   And they had a lovely talk about that ——and they really didn’t go Cromwell said,  and well maybe we can go later…..  What does this mean? What does it say about these two men, Henry and Suffolk,  friends from boyhood…that  they’re uncomfortable in sticky situations? Or?

Suffolk is the senior minister of the Council, a boyhood friend of Henry, he speaks his mind to Henry, one whose status can't be challenged...

Notice in this entire episode that a huge gap between commoner Thomas's status and Henry's acknowledgment, (Norfolk has his ear now) and how many times it's mentioned? Suffolk shows what a real expression of  class IS, and in that room he's 2nd to the King. Nobody can harm him.

Cromwell may have closed Norfolk's father's Priory and threatened him minutes before, Bishop Gardiner may have been Wolsey's before Thomas, and Thomas minutes before had insulted him seriously, and Fitzwilliam may be terrified he'll be blamed for the Cleves mess, but Suffolk is closest of all the nobles  to the King and shows the way they should be acting. No matter what he really thinks, he's doing the right thing, which he knows Henry will appreciate. Because he knows Henry better than the others.

He said to Cromwell, "I will walk by your side, and lead you through the crowd."  Whatever his personal thoughts were about the issued raised, the ascendency of Norfolk and the ear of  Gardiner's waspish tongue, both men having a grudge against Cromwell, Suffolk is going to show them, in the absence of Archbishop  Cranmer (notice Gardiner has somehow arranged all this) what a real noble acts like.

So that's my thought on that, for what it's worth,  of the MOVIE scene, I have yet to find it  in the book, and I must say what a delight it IS to be able to discuss, it's been a long time.  And this book AND program are worth it. It appears there's a difference in the book and the movie's interpretation of the book and real  history.

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow - thanks and thanks again - thanks for the info on the roses - one is actually grown in a flower pot - wow gives me ideas so I could get one started and pull it in the shade during the afternoons of our two hottest months - need to look up the two you sited and then - thanks for clarifying the Suffolk drama - interesting, interesting and so he is top dog of all of them... and yes, 3 interpretations of the same story from this time in history - when I stop and think of it of course there should be a difference between the written word and the photographic (movie) viewpoint - I learned years ago a movie cannot handle as many issues as can be presented by the written word using the various methods English Lit has available to a writer.

As to the difference reading History - hmm the more I'm learning about what I thought was set in cement, no stamped in iron or even gold the more I'm seeing history is seldom that accurate - already things I lived through are being written about and I know my experiences and what most of us knew about what was happening differs, in some cases greatly, from what I read today - even beyond the difference among those who describe history from a moral viewpoint using today's cultural moral standard -

However, in this case, regardless how inaccurate the retelling of this time writers are bringing to 'light' another viewpoint - we are presented as you say Ginny with different versions and I'm even seeing other versions having found a good documentary on Henry that I watched and his Bio that I'm slowly reading... been switching back and forth between Henry's bio and the bio on Cromwell. Yes, this has been wonderful discussing a book and a movie all in one - thank you, thank you - it is as good a discussion as all the books discussed over the years here on Senior Learn.

[ginny]

 I have enjoyed it, too. I don't see why we couldn't do it again. Maybe more would like to join.  It's really fun.

Barbara, Belinda's Dream is a Texas rose, hybridized in Texas, so it ought to feel right at home. The pots I have them in I could not move, so if I want to shade hostas I use shade cloth, which is dark green plastic, can't weigh an ounce, and has little holes in it..it looks like a little screen. You just clip it on with a potato chip  type clip and voila!

Last summer in July I had to move some Lenten roses (Hellebores) and I did in breathtaking heat. They are shade plants and so I just put this cloth over them and actually forgot them. The rain comes right through. In the fall I remembered them when it got cold and pulled off the cloth and you should see them now, they are huge and are filling up happily their new space. My husband asked me the other day what IS that?


I'm almost caught up with the book Mirror and the Light. Henry (who is acting very childish in the movie, the movie actually said so last week) I wonder why? Henry has just said Cromwell has not changed but Henry is much changed. Henry says  "Still I miss the Vicar of York ."  (Wolsey)...Much talk in the book of the phantom of Wolsey, who has not returned yet. In the book Cromwell thinks that's amusing, that Henry misses the Cardinal, makes jokes on it. "He's tired of me."   I'm not sure I recall the reaction in the movie, but I don't recall him laughing about it. Did he? More later I need to read your questions again.

I agree about history.   The ancient Roman historians were pretty clear about their objectives. Livy explained in the preface of his huge books of Roman history that it wasn't so much the facts he was interested in, who could ever sort out the  legends, rumors , and tales, going back a thousand years,  but the point being the characteristics that made the Romans great and when they failed , why. Bias. All ancient historians had bias. But you don't have to be ancient, think of something tht happens and how MANY different takes on it there are from eye witnesses. Think of a long line of people, somebody whispers a secret to the first person who then turns to the second and repeats it. When it gets to the end, it is nothing like how it started.

Frybabe, I hope Oscar's new medicine helps him. It's hard to see a pet suffer.


Barbara, you spoke of golf carts: When you mentioned using a Golf Cart - it must be a 'thing' in the Carolina's - Katha talks about getting one - evidently Golf Carts are 'THE' public transportation used, mostly by elders, all over Saluda - as impossible as it sounds to me Katha and Gary are in their early 70s now and where they still walk and hike they are finding their walks to town are not as easy if they are bringing home purchases and then just the fun of scooting around town in a Golf Cart to be part of the parade of friends all doing the same thing.

Just this morning I read an article I can't find now that there are more than 10,000 golf carts in the retirement Villages in Florida. This link https://backyardescapism.com/blogs/the-escapist/the-definitive-guide-to-golf-carts-in-the-villages-florida-numbers-culture-and-more says there are more than 85,000.

I think it would be nice to go to the doctor's or the grocery in a golf cart, and  to have either that close for a restful ride over, but I think golf carts are illegal here on SC public roads and a good way to get killed. But The Villages are made for them. 90 miles of golf cart roads!!!  A lot of people in SC use them at the beach. I can see them there.

It was also mentioned that at The Villages there's a party every night and "happy Hour" begins at 10 am. Lots of activities, clubs, etc. Anything you want. There's a movie about it which casts a slightly different picture. Wish I could find that link.

It sounds frenetic to me. We had a neighbor to buy a second home there and to move right back within a year. I keep forgetting to ask why.

I like peace and quiet, myself. Quiet ride, birds singing. AND home grocery delivery.  Beats a golf cart any time, you still have to get the groceries  in the house somehow.

[BarbStAubrey]

for sure need to track down a Belinda Dream - wow - created here in our heat tra la... although big difference between North Texas and South Texas but no sense splitting hairs and where there are more commercial garden locations further north I really can't talk till I find out where the rose was propagated - still this is wonderful to know, thanks. 

OK couldn't wait till morning - of course fell asleep again watching TV but thank goodness I had changed the channel before because I was watching a Documentary on the Popes that gives me yet another viewpoint of how Henry ended up just taking what he wanted - it also puts in question how much the clergy in Hernry's court (Gardiner and earlier Wolsey etc. ) were actually acting as an envoy for the Pope...

First, I did not realize that Anne of Cleve's Uncle and brother to Catherine of Aragon was Emperor Charles V king of Germany, Spain, Lord of the Netherlands on and on and it was Charles V, while fighting the king of France had his general, Charles III of Bourbon, head a German army that sacked Rome in 1527. During the battle Charles III of Bourbon was killed which does not stop the German Army that continues to fight and plunder southern Italy.

Pope Clement VII captured soon after the sacking of Rome, escapes prison and ends up allying with Charles V in order to rebuild the Papal State and so, when Henry comes along to get the Pope to agree to a divorce, Clement VII was in a weak position.  However, before and even after the sacking of Rome, when the Pope was effectively a prisoner of Charles V, Gardiner did continue as the key figure in the negotiations for Henry's divorce that Clement VII kept putting off and putting off with one excuse after the other till finally Henry takes matters into his own hands severing ties with the Catholic Church.

More connections - Clement VII was the illegitimate son of the Medici that was murdered, the brother of Lorenzo - during Clement VII Papacy he, as his predecessor, commissioned artworks -  Raphael, Benvenuto Cellini, and Michelangelo, including Michelangelo's The Last Judgment in the Sistine Chapel. Clement VII is best known, in 1533, the same year he did pronounce Henry's marriage to Catherine legal, for approving Nicolaus Copernicus's theory that the Earth revolves around the Sun—99 years before Galileo's heresy trial for similar ideas.

Even Martel writes this trilogy from the perspective of England never hinting at what else is going on at the time. The other issue, that made more of an impact on Spain and Portugal was the discovery's in America - Secondary on Henry's plate - while Henry sent some expeditions to the cod banks of Newfoundland and claimed parts of the eastern coast of North America, Henry VIII did not actively pursue colonization or establish permanent settlements in America and news to me... why Brazil's native tongue is Portuguese - it was the Church that in 1492/3, following Christopher Columbus's voyages, issued a bull, "Inter caetera," which established a Line of Demarcation from the North Atlantic straight down dividing the newly discovered lands between Spain and Portugal. No survey just the decree that still holds today. It was drawn to stop the territorial disputes between Spain and Portugal.
 
Henry more than made up building his wealth without financing exploration trips to the Americans... Henry VIII with Cromwell dissolved approximately 900 religious houses, seized their wealth; disposed of their assets; destroyed buildings and relics; dispersed or destroyed libraries; and provided for their former personnel and functions. Much former monastic property was sold off to fund Henry's military campaigns in the 1540s. Homeless were  some 12,000 people in total, 4,000 monks, 3,000 canons, 3,000 friars and 2,000 nuns. If the adult male population was 500,000, that meant that one adult man in fifty was in a religious order.

What I did not know is that during this time frame, 1540, Ignatius of Loyola and six companions founded The Society of Jesus/Jesuits

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm interesting - not directly tied to The Mirror and the Light but came across this that I did not know... Jesuits do not live in community. They rarely pray, eat, sleep, or play together. Every Jesuit is very autonomous. They can move freely around the world without having to go where their community goes. However, because there is no oversight as in a community house regulated by a superior, it leaves room for people to get into trouble. Some Jesuits have become very good at getting into trouble.

During discovery and exploration of the Americas Jesuits made the largest impact in Canada while Franciscans played a major role in Mexico.

The first Jesuits arrived in England in 1580. The Society of Jesus was suppressed by the Catholic Church in the late 18th century, but the Jesuits in Britain continued their work, and the Society was officially restored in 1803. The Jesuits were part of the reformation however, within the Catholic Church. The major difference was to give attention to a personal God which at the time was similar to the Protestant Reformation as compared to community prayer and rote prayers.

[Frybabe]

it was the Church that in 1492/3, following Christopher Columbus's voyages, issued a bull, "Inter caetera," which established a Line of Demarcation from the North Atlantic straight down dividing the newly discovered lands between Spain and Portugal. No survey just the decree that still holds today. It was drawn to stop the territorial disputes between Spain and Portugal.

What amazes me is that it actually worked to keep the squabbling and wars down during this period of exploration and expansion, especially because it was issued before they discovered an accurate method to calculate longitude. The early explorers were at pains to not be discovered violating that edict. It didn't stop the squabbling entirely, though, especially in the Indian and Asian South Pacific arena.

Fun Map from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude#/media/File:Ptolemy_map_of_Mediterranean_superimposed_on_modern_map.png
 

[ginny]

Wow and wow, Barbara and Frybabe. I had no idea of any of that?

None.

You can't say the topic is not au courant, can you?

Wow. Good heavens on  Bishop Gardiner. I had no idea. I remain very vague on Clement VII.

Absolutely NO clue on this: First, I did not realize that Anne of Cleve's Uncle and brother to Catherine of Aragon was Emperor Charles V king of Germany, Spain, Lord of the Netherlands on and on and it was Charles V, while fighting the king of France had his general, Charles III of Bourbon, head a German army that sacked Rome in 1527. During the battle Charles III of Bourbon was killed which does not stop the German Army that continues to fight and plunder southern Italy.

I came IN to say I suddenly realized that after Sunday it's all over, isn't it? But it's not, obviously.

I thought when I woke up the question now was: which is the real Cromwell? Will the real Thomas Cromwell please stand up? The movie one? The Mantel one? The MacCullough one? The real one?

When I read the book I hear Mark Rylance's gentle tones. I don't think that Cromwell is a contender.
  Rylance, in what has to be more than a tour de force than I realized, is just too nice a person,  and you can't help but be on his side....wishing his father could see him now, but until I read a scholar ON it, I will not know definitively, will I? I have a feeling that's why he was chosen, imagine being on Thomas Cromwell's side: enemy that he was of the Catholic Church in England. It would take a special actor, highly skilled, to carry that off without being hated.

Things are seldom what they seem. Back to the book!

[Frybabe]

Ginny, I am off on another web exploration in a few minutes. What I am looking for is conformation that there were some Roman Emperors whose bodies, upon their deaths, were not actually put on display, but that there was a custom, at least for a few, to display a wax effigy in place of the real deal. First I ever heard of that, but then the mention came up when the speaker was talking about later emperors who I know absolutely nothing about, including most of the Byzantine bunch.

[Frybabe]

Well, that was fast. It is part of the Apotheosis rituals held on the death of the emperor. The use of a wax effegy appears to have begun with the Antonine dynasty as part of the public mourning process. The real body was interred in a private ceremony. Interesting reading from the Roman Empire Times. https://romanempiretimes.com/ascending-to-the-divine-the-practice-and-meaning-of-apotheosis-in-ancient-rome/

[BarbStAubrey]

Frybabe the Roman use of wax effigies reminds me of the old saying - nothing new under the sun - came to mind immediately was Marie Tussaud's and Musée Grévin. Thinking about it, the practice was probably very practical - unless an emperor died mid-winter the bodies would not last and in the heat oh oh oh

As to Cromwell - I think that he was painted black because the average Joe in England, Wales etc had no choice except to witness and not only do without the religion they had grown up with but for the average Joe and especially the poor there was a huge loss -

Things I've learned - lost were endowed charities that fed the poor, people out of work who, although not religious worked the farms on land owned and farmed by monasteries. "On the eve of the overthrow, the various monasteries owned approximately 2,000,000 acres over 16 percent of England, with tens of thousands of tenant farmers working those lands" - Some monastic land were agricultural estates with a single monk in residence to supervise.

Hospitals and places for the aged disappeared, libraries were destroyed and granted few of the average read however, destroyed were ancient texts - priceless illuminated manuscripts all destroyed - libraries of nearly a 1000 books were reduced to someone saving maybe 6 books -

There was a national crisis that lasted till the next century with the passing of the Poor Laws - the crisis was a huge number of beggars taking to the roads that included defrocked religious with no pensions. Hardest hit were the nunneries since the women had few powerful friends. Hmm makes the scene with Dorathea in The Mirror... all the more poignant.

No more schools that had been opened to young boys as well as for those preparing for a religious life. Churches built around shrines and places of pilgrimage were a source of income for the locals now lost with no other economic base to augment the loss.

It was only when I read how the stones from these buildings were sold that the destruction really hit me - "Henry sold the monastic lands for bargain basement prices, such was his need for ready cash. The real beneficiary of the Dissolution was not the king, but the new class of gentry who bought the lands."

Back to Cromwell - all this started with Wolsey however he was very slow where as Cromwell enlisted the aid of 4 agents whose task was finding and in some cases embroidering comments to create evidence in order to confiscate the property - My guess that was the real source of betrayal and subsequent anger - most of the evidence was about depravity, usually sexual and corruption as well as, examples of excess wealth - to be labeled with these charges and have no recourse and then see the cradle of your entire life taken and destroyed along with all those affected who lived and depended on the monastery or church for their life's work and for some, their living quarters - evidently landed monasteries not only had tenant farmers but hundreds of servants that made these center's run. That alone is a lot of people all angry and devastated who would vilify Cromwell. 

[BarbStAubrey]

OK just found this... "One of the first practical results of the assumption of the highest spiritual powers by the king was the supervision by royal decree of the ordinary episcopal visitations, and the appointment of a layman — Thomas Cromwell — as the king's vicar-general in spirituals, with special authority to visit the monastic houses, and to bring them into line with the new order of things.

A document, dated 21 January 1535, allows Cromwell to conduct the visit through "commissaries", as the minister is said to be at that time too busy with "the affairs of the whole kingdom." The men employed by Cromwell were chiefly Richard Layton and Thomas Leigh. The visitation seems to have been conducted systematically, and to have passed through three clearly defined stages. During the summer the houses in the West of England were subjected to examination; and this portion of the work came to an end in September, when Layton and Leigh arrived at Oxford and Cambridge respectively...

Parliament met on 4 February 1535/36 and received a digest of the report Valor Ecclesiasticus, a visitation of the monasteries of England commissioned by the King. Cromwell was then defeated in Parliament, with his plan to reform monasteries denied, and the Dissolution of the Monasteries, put forward by Thomas Audley, soon passed the Act.

The act applied only to lesser houses "which have not in lands, tenements, rents, tithes, portions, and other hereditaments, above the clear yearly value of two hundred pounds", attacking such houses as dens of iniquity and proposing that those in them should be "committed to great and honourable monasteries of religion" and "compelled to live religiously"

The act, and the many dissolutions which followed in its wake, was the principal cause of the Pilgrimage of Grace, a rebellion which broke out at Louth in Lincolnshire in October 1536. An army numbering about 30,000 men gathered, and King Henry ordered the Duke of Norfolk, Duke of Suffolk, and Lord Shrewsbury to take action. But he had no standing army, and the rebels were looked on favourably. So peace had to be negotiated, the demand to restore the monasteries was conceded, a new parliament was to be called, and the rebels were promised free pardons. After they had dispersed and gone home, Henry broke his word. The rebel leaders were arrested and put on trial, and several hundred were executed. Bigod's rebellion then followed, also unsuccessful."

[BarbStAubrey]

Appears to me Cromwell was the face of the Dissolution that he did not plan for... he instead wanted a different outcome. That loss was not featured in The Mirror... and now I'm wondering if it was an added component to the loss of spirit we see in Cromwell since his visit with Dorathea.

[bellamarie]

Have any of you read Mantel's other two books Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies prior to reading The Mirror and the Light?  Is it necessary to read them beforehand?  I have enjoyed following along with the discussion even though I have yet to watch the show on PBS.  I have been snooping around Google and found this in an article:  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-real-story-behind-wolf-hall-and-the-fall-of-thomas-cromwell-henry-viiis-most-controversial-adviser-180986258/

The first season of “Wolf Hall” covers the years 1529 to 1536, chronicling Cromwell’s rise to power, his rivalry with More and the downfall of Anne Boleyn, Henry’s second wife. Though Henry—aided by the reform-minded Cromwell—broke from the Catholic Church to secure an annulment from his first wife, Catherine of Aragon, and marry Anne, he quickly tired of his outspoken new queen after she was unable to provide him with a male heir.

“Wolf Hall: The Mirror and the Light” opens in May 1536, around the time of Anne’s execution. Mantel assigns much of the blame for Anne’s beheading to Henry (played in the series by Damian Lewis of “Homeland” and “Band of Brothers”), framing the king’s chief minister as a reluctant enforcer, but Borman and MacCulloch argue that Cromwell (Mark Rylance), in truth, bears more responsibility for Anne’s fall.

With Anne dispatched, Cromwell’s focus in the TV series turns to the king’s new marriage to Jane Seymour (Kate Phillips) and the continued disobedience of Henry’s eldest daughter, the future Mary I (Lilit Lesser), who refuses to acknowledge her father’s supremacy. Later in the season, Cromwell must navigate his own fall from grace, which serves as a dramatic reminder of the king’s capriciousness.

“‘The Mirror and the Light’ is [actually] a description of Henry,” says Lewis in a PBS statement. “He is the mirror in which everyone is reflected. He can shine his light on you, and he can leave you in the dark very quickly.”

10 Facts about the Jesuits:
 
https://www.historyhit.com/facts-about-the-jesuits/?fbclid=IwY2xjawJ44y5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkETFDaWttbWZVNlRIOTJXQWtnAR4aFtzTeMtl8xPOzn5-xrXgqcMh1IwdVxRiBus1XmuU1hYdHXIaX2zwZy5fWQ_aem_PHxlgOOXYVRaOkjrVNhFWg

Fr. Jim (a Franciscan) and I were discussing who the next Pope may be, and I said to him "I just hope it's a Franciscan and not a Jesuit."  He laughed and said he thinks this Pope being a Jesuit possibly caused a lot of concern and confusion within the church on statements he made referring to cultural choices that do not align with doctrine/scripture.  We shall see soon who will be voted in. 

[BarbStAubrey]

bellamarie since some of the actors that play various roles in this movie series changed for The Mirror... I think you could pick up the story by watching The Mirror without watching the earlier Wolf Hall that also included Bring Up the Bodies - however to watch a series of one hour segments is far less time than it would take to read the two books and so I would go back and watch them not only to get a total picture but if for no other reason than to relish the acting of Mark Rylance. This entire series well done and for once does not focus on the 6 wives.

And yes, this last book in the trilogy as a reader or maybe this discussion anyhow you really realize it is almost like his whole purpose for being is to cement the Tudors by having a male child - that more than any war won or alignment with other powerful kings is his sole purpose and the more it was not happening the more focused he became so that all his actions are better understood in light of that mission.  Considering the protracted War of the Roses was still his grandparents battle with only his father as the first Tudor King again the high stakes especially with others in the wings with enough royal blood to take over the kingship.

[ginny]

Bellamarie, I know what you mean and I'm going to agree with Barbara  here that the movie is the best entrance, but even the actors in The Mirror and the Light say you really should watch the TV PBS   Wolf Hall first so you can get the real background, and enjoy more and understand what is going on. They are being interviewed all over youtube, and that came from the actor playing "Rafe," saying that would  give you an understanding of the characters and the issues. Because it's a character study as well, and fascinating.

I got interested in the topic with the first PBS showing of Wolf Hall 10 years ago  and was hooked. I have now read all but 10 pages of all three books, (the first two are wonderful reads) but it's the movies you want to watch first and they are free everywhere.

I don't think you'd regret it.

[ginny]

As hard as it is to believe I just finished the book The  Mirror and The Light.
 
 I did so because I’ve heard rumors of his death and then I’ve seen them disavowed and I wanted to see how she ended it. I won’t spoil it because I don’t know how the movie is going to end it —if it’s going to do the same thing or not.  However I will say Wolsey  reappears.  But is he visible? In the book. But will he in the movie?   And when, that's the question?  And what will he say now? Will he refute his own daughter?

Then Mantel  sets out telling us what became of all the others which I really like…. I think she did a good job there. His actual death is a tour de force of writing.  Mantel really did that well—- she ended it well. But what will the movie do? What actually happened in real life?

I think the subject is complex…. Very complex. She might’ve had another book out of it but I am going to be very interested to see now what the movie does tomorrow night.   And how they end it, because the Ann of Cleves bit, for instance, is not at all like the movie had it, nor real life.   

So a challenge awaits us, right to the end.

That is about as good as you can get in this  situation I think…

Looking forward to seeing what you think Monday…

[BarbStAubrey]

Only maybe it is two weeks ago but recently I read through one night that I could not put down a book called I See You've Called In Dead by John Kenney - it was so much deeper than the laugh aloud that the book is touted for as the reason to buy and read - I thought it was the best book I'd read in a long time - here is a link to a short 5 minute interview with the Author about the Book - the interview is as wonderful as the book... explaining with a stab to the heart what prompted John Kenney to write the book...

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-e&q=john+kenney+author#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ed9242a8,vid:4_Xyc_tqvTg,st:0

[Frybabe]

I am still reading it, Barb. Not nearly as fast as you, though. I am almost half way through it. So far, my favorite scene is the Polish funeral. For me, the book seems a subtle nudge toward learning to feel, to live again, to see your surroundings with new eyes, an inner awakening all done through a cast of sometimes quirky characters.   

[ginny]

By the way: last week's PBS had Cromwell saying, "As Cicero said, 'Live hopefully, die courageously.'"


The phrase "Live hopefully, die courageously" is often attributed to Cicero, but it doesn't appear in his extant works. That means unless somebody is channeling Cicero, he didn't say it. Maybe somebody interpreted it as such. He did die courageously.

There's a great T shirt out there somewhere which  has a drawing of Cicero on it saying, "I never said that..."

[BarbStAubrey]

several web sites quote Cicero having said, "Live as Brave Men; and if fortune is adverse, front its blows with brave hearts."  A couple of websites say the quote is similar to one from a play written by an African slave who was educated and set free... and either directly translated into Latin from the original Greek or was at least in part adapted. As a result, we don’t know who spawned the now famous line: “Modo liceat vivere, est spes” Directly translated to “While there is life there is hope.”

The quote as written by Mantel seems to have originated with Mantel however, it is a famous thought with many reiterations.

Yes, yes frybabe the Polish funeral - so glad those 'mourning' could laugh - I like that, 'an inner awakening' - he sure knows how to get you thinking doesn't he and thinking as you say 'with new eyes' - this is one of a very few books I will probably if not read at least scheme again - the first half of the book he kept referring to his opening gambits and all I could do was laugh remembering.

[ginny]

Here's the thing?   Websites really don't matter, that's how rumor spreads. What matters with the ancients is provenance— source.  If you can't quote or cite  the source, and if extant,  they're all out there, all in print,  somebody's “take” on it is somebody’s “take.” 

[ginny]

Wow. Well, what an ending!

Biggest surprises?

Stayed up half the night reading MacCullough the historian, who, not surprisingly, had several things differently.

 Biggest change: no Suffolk leading to Tower.

Were you shocked at the fine appointments of the Tower room? All I could think of was Thomas More and how Cromwell  had treated him...


Huge change: the death itself.

One of the  cast ("Rafe")  of the current movie is seen talking  on youtube about Cromwell's  hideous death. Apparently his enemies got the ax man drunk and it took (so the rumor goes about real life) many blows, a very painful death.

Not in the movie tho Cromwell does ask the executioner  "are you all right?" I thought, oh no, here it comes.

 It leaves the rest to our imaginations.

But  MacCullough (the scholar) says  there were two eyewitness reports, both from the same man. If I'm reading this correctly, the "occasionally reliable  anonymous Spanish chronicler" said both that the axman botched it and then he also reported "the head was off in a stroke."

Both are not possible, and this is the issue with history,  sometimes. There are notes on the chapters, I'll read them next.

If anybody watched it, what did  YOU think?   A very worthy contender for any kind of discussion. History on 4 levels. It's been SO fun. We really should think of doing it again.

[PatH]

I'm sorry to have to tell you that Joank, who has been fighting a combination of pneumonia and metastatic cancer, is now in hospice care. She is very comfortable, cheerful and accepting, surrounded by  children and grandchildren and various extended family, all pouring their expressions of love on her, but it's hard to watch.

[bellamarie]

PatH., I am so very sorry to hear the news of Joan.  At these times having the love of family is such a comfort.  Please know I will be keeping Joan, you and her family in my thoughts and prayers. 

Ginny, thanks for the advice of watching the prior titles before watching The Mirror and The Light.  With summer approaching I will have lots of time to binge watch all three since my regular shows will not be airing.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat thanks for sharing with us about Joan - so many wonderful book discussions that she was a huge part of and that we share the memory and now her end is near and it does not sound as peaceful as we hope - my cousin has been fighting a similar battle and is still lingering in hospice - everytime she appears to be ready to go forward and be with her husband and parents something pulls her back and so it has been weeks now - as much as we love and hate to see our loved ones go I'm thinking lingering like that is difficult for everyone and I pray Joan does not have to experience a similar fate. Pat, like Bellamarie my prayers are with you and Joan and her family - Does not sound like you will get to fly over for a last visit however, with technology today I hope you can see each other using your phones, although Joan my not be as capable of much of a visit since I'm thinking for her comfort there are drugs being used. Oh Pat there really are not the words are there...

[ginny]

Dear Pat,  I am so sorry to hear that Joan has experienced such challenges to her health—- they would be hard to beat. But it sounds like in  her hospice she will be surrounded by love and caring and she is showing her old indomitable spirit and joy we remember…..And while I know that it must be terribly hard for you as a twin, particularly,  it sounds like she is surrounded as we might all hope to be, by love, and really that’s quite a gift; and she deserves every bit of it and more. 


Will you please extend to her our combined and continual good wishes ?  She has been on the minds of many of us for some time.

{{{{HUGS}}}} to you and her family.

[Frybabe]

Oh, Pat. I am so sorry to hear the news that Joan is now in hospice care. Just so you know, I have always appreciated your messages letting us know how she has been doing and of your visits with her. Thank you. 

I second Ginny's big hugs.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny I thought this last segment rather than being full of history was more a tour de force of Mark Reliance - as to his 'jail' cell yes, I read years back about the sumptuous appointments for those who were in the Tower -

Cromwell does well by Rafe and shows how those close to him abandoned him including his son and surprising Gardiner was not as severe as he could have been however, my guess just winning was enough for him. And yes, no sign of Suffolk -

Realized I was watching an imagined scene using history because I too had heard that it was a brutal death - thank goodness the movie did not include reality in that scene. The public death confession done by Cromwell was beyond remarkable - he touts everything he disavowed as if it were true - what that was all about I cannot figure since it sure was not changing his fate however, it did build up Henry - That last scene of Henry I thought reminded me of Mrs. Pumphrey's Tricki Wooh sitting on a large cushion in all its pampered brushed and combed glory. 

Having placed these events in historical context now to what was going on in the western world at the time I've come away realizing this was an awful time in history for ruthless, almost barbaric behavior along with the overwhelming graft, corruption, exploitation of power and bribery among the powerful including all the powerful within the Catholic Church - I see little to redeem these 'rulers' - finding their vulnerability and soft spots is my first thought but oh oh oh... And now we learn just how corrupt our own American current and past history has been which had always been shown as an example that excluded the 'sins' of European leadership -

Off the subject but we just celebrated San Jacinto Day, which commemorates the final battle of the Texas Revolution on April 21, 1836. I regularly receive papers and articles from the State Historical Association and this year commemorating San Jacinto Day was a well written article on David Crockett of which I had no idea and need to find out more about how he and others were deathly opposed to president Jackson - even changing some of the wording declaring their allegiance when they signed up to fight - what was that all about - all I ever heard, Jackson was a rough hewn sort of guy whose wife was never accepted but never heard of him being someone to vilify, as most of those who signed up and fought the war with Mexico did, although, not Houston and that was a bone of contention among these famous names who brought about Texas Independence. 

I guess I just have not been as aware how debauched the powerful have been - even today we hear of graft, cheating and yes, murder all a part of the political power game - watching the story of Henry, Cromwell, Norfolk, Queens, etc simply shows good versus evil turned on its head within and beyond the Tudor Court. White hats versus Black hats was so much easier wasn't it...

Tried to get into the Marie Antoinette series and watched it last night but it does not grab me - because yes, agree, we need to do this - so great to have a focus that leads to digging with a fresh look - this has been a great conversation - thanks...

[ginny]

Thinking of Joan K today.

Bellamarie, I think you will really enjoy the binge.

Barbara, lots of great perspectives as usual.

Gardiner! I noticed that, too or I noticed in what appeared to be his eye sympathy and compassion. Or maybe he was worried about himself.  All of them should have been worried. Here's how he ended up:

Great as Gardiner's influence had been with Henry VIII, his name was omitted from the King's will, though Henry was believed to have intended making him one of his executors. Henry had made provision in his will for a 16-man Council to rule England during his son Edward's minority (Edward VI). Gardiner was excluded from this council. Edward Seymour, a brother of Jane Seymour, seized power as Lord Protector and he and his council introduced radical Protestant reforms. Gardiner completely opposed these reforms. Between the time of Henry VIII's death in January 1547 and the end of that year, Gardiner wrote at least 25 indignant letters arguing that the reforms were both theologically wrong and unconstitutional. Most of these letters were addressed to Somerset.[16] He resisted the visitation of his Winchester diocese by the ecclesiastical
authorities.[17] His remonstrances resulted in imprisonment in the Fleet, and the visitation of his diocese was held during his incarceration. Although soon released, he was summoned before the council, which demanded an explanation. Refusing to answer satisfactorily on some points, Gardiner was imprisoned in the Tower of London in June 1548.[18] Eventually he was given a lengthy appearance before the Privy Council, beginning in December 1550 and, in February 1551 he was deprived of his bishopric and returned to the Tower where he remained for the rest of the reign (a further two years).[19] During this time he unsuccessfully requested his acknowledged right as one of the Lords Spiritual to appear before the House of Lords. His bishopric was given to John Ponet, a chaplain of Cranmer's, translated from the bishopric of Rochester.

You talked about  I guess I just have not been as aware how debauched the powerful have been - even today we hear of graft, cheating and yes, murder all a part of the political power game - watching the story of Henry, Cromwell, Norfolk, Queens, etc simply shows good versus evil turned on its head within and beyond the Tudor Court. White hats versus Black hats was so much easier wasn't it...

According to what I have read, Henry,  with the death of Cromwell, which he came to regret and actually wish Cromwell were there , and to wonder if a conspiracy had brought him down, really set out on what appears a killing spree for quite a while. The names fell like logs, it's pretty astounding. And frightening. Perhaps he WAS under the influence of some disease, as Pat H suggested. At any rate it was very frightening to read about.  Very turbulent in the years to come.

Norfolk barely escaped with his own life. Imprisoned in the Tower, he was set to be executed the next morning, but Henry died first.

And the executions were  often HORRID. Disembowelment...the whole 9  yards. A reign of terror.

Mantel's take on what Cromwell was actually thinking, his thoughts as he died is.....just spectacular. Again, a tour de force. I wish she had perhaps done more editing of that last book, if for no other reason that is so long and so complex it is very challenging. I would like to have seen it win the Booker like the other two did but she was dealing with  SUCH a complex time and issue.

I haven't been able to get into the Marie Antoinette thing either, but it's certainly beautifully filmed.

As Rylance/Cromwell  would say, well, well, I have truly enjoyed this experience. Thank you Barbara, for picking up the standard and actually making it into a mini book discussion, which it didn't start out as. The credit is all yours, and thanks to everybody else who chipped in. The result was really,  as we used to say, "one for the books."

[Frybabe]

Barb, et.al.

Has anyone read Proust's In Search of Lost Time? The reason I ask is that in John Kenney's book, he mentions "a Proustian madeleine-like memory". Well, I wondered about that, so I wondered if madeleine meant anything other than the small French cakes. The dictionary I have downloaded to my tablet says that "in sense 2, used as a reference to the cake's function in the extract below, taken from Marcel Proust's In Search of Lost Time."  Number 2 is "(figuratively) Something which brings back a memory; a source of nostalgia or evocative memories." When looking for In Search of Lost Time, I discovered that it is in fact a thirteen volume novel (according to Guinness Book of World records) of which Swann's Way is the first. I know some of you have read that. In fact, wasn't there a discussion about it here or on Senior Net? I wonder how many people have read the whole sequence other than Proust scholars.