The Library

[BarbStAubrey]

wow how great - to touch a book that was read and handled by people we read about today seems to me to be almost sacred... for sure profound...

I'm thinking back to my own travels and remember visiting Hampton Court however it was before all the restoration so that it was a large empty cavernous space and since my focus in the 1970s was needlework I was more interested in things like windows that with the light now flooding into indoor space it allowed women to do needlework and frankly it never crossed my mind at the time or for years later that Hampton Court was the home of Henry VIII - if rooms could talk as my mother used to say and in this case I wonder if we would hear anything not already noted by a writer or if we would only hear the benign of everyday frustrations and getting on with it.   

Been thinking more Ginny about your wonderment of why now has this story of Henry and Cromwell captured so many and I came across a link to a book I already owned and forgot I owned it - The Bright Age A New History of Medieval Europe - Yes before Henry's time however this bit caught my attention...

"If we as a culture decide that the Middle Ages existed and had a beginning and end, we don’t need to start with decline, darkness, or death. We can start in this shining, sacred, quiet space. This doesn’t, of course, erase the violence of the past to replace it with naive nostalgia. Instead, it shows us that paths taken were not foreordained. Shifting our perspective brings people, traditionally marginalized in other tellings, into focus. Starting somewhere else shows us possible worlds."

I thought the same could be said of this time we are reading about - yes, much violence, fear of being on the wrong side of someone powerful, blood on the hands of many while surrounded with opulence and I wondered what could be taken from Mantel's trilogy or probably better would be what could be taken from this power struggle and the violent deaths during the life of Henry VIII that lead to other perspectives and other worlds - what positive additions to our civilization came out of this time that we are overlooking by not focusing also on other perspectives.

Oh I can think of things like the needlework we still have preserved and designs copied from the Tudor Court women or as you shared the books that were so beautifully illustrated and used by those we are reading about or even the parks and great houses as well as castles that were examples of architecture, gardening, recipes from the kitchens but what did this time add to our culture, our ways of governing ourselves, how we changed or activities we adopted from examples of this time and also did this time help with the understanding of ourselves   

I did look up this sweating sickness and surprised to learn it reduced the population by as much as 50% with 5 major outbreaks between 1485 and 1551, that affected the Tudor court and feared by those in royal circles - still to this day the cause is has not been discovered and at the time there was no known cure. Evidently you were dead within hours or at best a day later... when the sickness disappeared it never returned. You don't read about any precautions taken by those who were at court or in the presence of even the queens - how did they soldier on I wonder with this sickness over their heads - we do know Cromwell's son was a victim - was that before or after the death of Cromwell I wonder...

But to my curiosity, after reading that bit about positives from the Middle Ages that for instance the chapel in Ravenna with its jeweled glass tiles was given as an example. However, that is back to the concept of the arts during dark or violent times being passed down - hmm just thought - both Cromwell and Wolsey did the impossible for that time in history when the population was so regulated by class - regardless of what became of them they both broke the  strong social culture of class which could be an examination of how they did it - the fact that Cromwell was executed was not because he broke into the highest level of this class system because others who were born into royalty were equally executed and so I do not know if this is the first example of bettering your situation in life or not however, that it could be done has to be a positive from the story of the Tudors  - hmm I wonder what else has been overlooked as we have focused on Henry and his march for power.

[BarbStAubrey]

sheesh Ginny that is a lot of trees that came down and I never knew there was an old growth forest of Dogwood - how magnificent - I do remember when we lived in Kentucky driving through the mountains this time of year and seeing a sea of white with green between - forgot about that - it was magical -

Bellamarie are you planning on replacing the Dogwood with another - oh you will never see it as old and grown as the one you were forced to remove but it could be a tree to look forward to enjoying during future Springs...

I know I'm struggling with what to plant to replace a huge old Oak in the backyard I lost last year in the storm - forgot know if it was the hurricane of they had a name for it but rain that was so heavy in such a short time with horizontal wind that it toppled many trees or maybe it was the tornado that came through and touched down in short spurts taking my screen door and doing much damage in nearby Cypress Texas where it took several homes and caused the death of several including a mother of 5. Anyhow the loss of that tree has allowed too much scorching sun during August and September that has damaged some flowering peach trees and so I need to get some shade back there - don't know if I should get a quick growing but not solid lasting tree or a sturdy tree like a slower growing Oak.  Then I'd have to do something to shade the peach trees.

Ginny after the removal of all the downed trees will you attempt a replanting or just leave it to what nature does   

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm a personal note - remember the other day when I put up the bit of wisdom about being in a dark place as being planted - for me I don't come to that realization till after I've struggled for awhile however, everytime I'm in a dark place where I have no answers and feel yes, like I've been buried I always end up turning to my dogeared with hundreds of paper place markers where something meaningful was said in my Allison Peers translation of St. John of the Cross's Ascent of Mount Carmel and then I realized that thinking, finding the positive that allows me to grow or at least see glimmers of sunlight was the basis for being attracted to the idea presented in The Bright Ages... that prompted my curiosity about what lasting good, other than the arts, came out of what is really a Dark Period of History during the time of Henry, in fact all the Tudors... hmm I wonder if that is the understanding of myself that came as a result of understanding, through Mantel's trilogy this Tudor history with its supportive court characters party to this dark time in history.

[BarbStAubrey]

[BarbStAubrey]

did not want to look like I was hogging up the discussion but can't hold off any longer - frybabe your recommendation of I See You've Called in Dead by John Kennedy was one of the best books I've read in years... I pulled an all nighter last night - started the book around 8: last night and could not stop reading till I finished it about 8: or soon after this morning - this book is riveting...

It starts with such unexpected incidents that had me laughing out-loud - and for about half the book any reference to the incidents was cause for a gawf or a giggle however, the story opens into some serious questions and understandings all done so well there is no feeling of 'this is too deep' or 'this is too sad' to continue... Yes, he inadvertently while drinking too much after a couple of crazy encounters he knocked over his drink while he was writing a mock obituary of himself and when retrieving the glass and spilled contents the side of his hand hits keys on the computer - result his obit becomes world wide news since he works for a Newspaper in the Obit writing department that was the site he used to type what he thought he would erase - of course the reason for writing the obit is a hilarious story in itself.

Even the Obit is hilarious as he pads it with false information and then not thinking he shows up for work on Monday without access ability to his office on and on with employees and his boss shocked to see him alive -and then his experience goes into the hoops everyone now experiences since everything is AI and the technology that runs companies does not accept he is alive - on and on -

There is an ex wife and the pain of learning the circumstances why she became an ex on top of his other family deaths - a new friend, a paraplegic who owns and rents him his apartment upstairs and other characters that includes a fellow worker, who is gay but not flaming and a good friend without wanting the friendship to be based on straight versus gay and his boss, who had become one of his best friends after being in the office late when the phone call comes in that his Bosses wife suddenly died of cancer so that he drives him and helps him through. There is the 8 year old neighbor child who is acting out by counting and noting everything on a notepad after his sister's death - there are additional characters all whom have their issues so that each chapter ends up as an opening to a new understanding or new questioning and some chapters are an uplifting viewpoint of acceptance or how to go on... this book is amazing - so readable without being heavy and is perfect for anyone going through a dark time in their life -

Frankly for me I've been struggling with my aging - no longer driving was a biggie since driving for me represented freedom with personal safety - another is there are no friends left to chit chat with and now that my legs are not working well and I am dependent on the walker along with getting tired so easily I feel more like a prisoner than someone who can create things much leas a meaningful or fun filled day.  I've lived through many challenges in my life and believed in time I would come to terms with my new reality but it was leaving me struggling on the verge of depression which is also an issue that is addressed in this unbelievable story - reading this has given me a new focus and I am seeing the early morning light - not the sun yet but I know that it will be next by hanging onto some of what I've read in this book 

and so Frybabe this book you suggested may have sounded like a good time laugh to read, which it is but it is so much more - thanks...

Napped this afternoon and the book has stayed with me - a wonderful testament to be thankful for our life and an attitude recommended that can make the day a joy rather than feeling like being stuck in any kind of underground vault so to speak.   

[Frybabe]

You are welcome, Barb. It will be a while til I get to read it. My online library only has one copy, so far, with a six month wait time.

Now I am wondering if anyone has read any of Fredrik Backman's books aside from A Man Called Ove? As I was cruising around in the library this morning I happened upon him again. The library has 10 of his books on offer, all of which have a wait list.  One, called Anxious People, has 20 copies and a nine week wait. Barb, this book is about a failed bank robber who takes hostage a group of people, including an 87 year old, attending a real estate open house.

[ginny]

Gosh that's a great book review, Barbara, it sounds hilarious.  And it sounds a must read, too. Thank you for mentioning it, Frybabe.

Barbara mentioned having looked up the Sweating Sickness, I am not sure why I didn't ,  I have now, what a frightening thing it must have been. Wikipedia thinks Henry VIII's older brother may have died from it. I can't believe I am quoting Wikipedia. Should I be quoting  AI instead?

I read the article hoping it would mention that to avoid the plague of sweating sickness (which they now think is a type of Hantavirus!! Recently in the news, too.  OR maybe anthrax.)  But somewhere I read that in the summer...at the King's....what did they call it,  yearly trips to stay away from London and to visit the countryside? Can't think of the name to save my life, but they MAY in fact have been to get him away from contagion and into the fresh air.   There's a word for it. It's not peregrination or pilgrimage,.....what IS it!! Driving me nuts.  Progress? The king's progress?

And tonight's the night! Very excited but a little apprehensive, too, because there are only three episodes left and we know it doesn't end well.

And of course there's Rylance's performance. I'm not as sympathetic to his Cromwell this time, he's changed a little bit, (what ACTING!!!) but I sure hate to see him get hurt after the job Mantel did on making him likeable.

And yes, I'm with you, about giving up things I always did without even thinking about them.

And no we're not going to try to replant the main woods where the tornado came through but leave it to reforest itself. You can't tell it unless you venture in. The forestry people have been out and gave their thoughts on it as well.

OH and on the tree replacement for the oak in your yard?  Are those bearing peach trees (make real peaches?) or ornamental peach trees? I ask because here in SC peaches, the ones which make a crop, are grown in full sun.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny they appear to be ornamental however you have no idea the searing sun in August and September - far more than even in Austin but then I did have pretty good tree cover in Austin however you could go out and walk, run or bike ride mid day - here there is no way - it is not that the temp is that much hotter - probably about 3 to 5 degrees hotter on the same day as Austin therefore close to and over 100 as a norm - but the sun is different somehow and actually scorches plantings that have to be wrapped or netted for protection however, most have a nearby tree that will shade them for an hour or two - this scorching sun starts its burn about 2: to 2:30 in the afternoon and goes on till nearly 7: in the evening - it is as if the earth in South Texas, which Houston is a part, is an anvil with the heat that can melt metal from the fireball of the sun -

When I used to drive to my daughters a couple or more times a year I usually came home by way of I-10 by going south out of Atlanta through Montgomery down to Mobile and across - I never had to look at a sign or a map but I knew when I hit the state line between Louisiana and Texas - even in mid-winter coming back from my Christmas trip the sun has a blaze unto its own  - all that to try and explain how without the shade of the larger tree my 2 small peach trees are showing signs of loss with fewer leaves this year and far fewer blossoms. 

OH YES... remember in one lecture of one of the Great Houses, no I think it was a castle, yes, forget which one but the docent went on to say people moved from these castles constantly and why we would see so many paintings or illustrations of whole households on the road - the reason being two fold - one the so called plumbing that wasn't was so filled up the smell became too great - after all there was a large community of people living in or visiting the castle and also the surrounding area was depleted of easily hunted game of which all these people were dependent and so they up and moved rotating between 'residents' - to me it sounds like the Royal Court was able to rotate more frequently. 

[BarbStAubrey]

According to various sites on the internet Cromwell did have an illegitimate daughter whose name was Jane however the one Martel included is fictitious. what the purpose of her appearing in the story I cannot tell - she came, she went - nothing earth shaking...

All I could pickup was after Wolsey's daughter said he was not there for her father, Cromwell lost something within and he was no longer the fighter he had been so that we are seeing his slow downfall that includes more personal loss with the death of Jane Seymour - I detected a more brutal Henry...

[ginny]

 Oh I hadn't thought about the latrines!!! How much we take for granted today! hahahhaha

I had reached the point last night where Cromwell, looking worried, says "I've lost my way," which sounds very ominous when I was interrupted , and  couldn't concentrate on what was being said or done,  from then on, so I need to watch it again....but I WAS shocked at the appearance of Reginald Pole and I need to go back and see what or who was behind the reason for it. Is he tortured and if so was it Cromwell? You've got to pay attention when you watch the thing, because the film is going to use inferences and images to help make its point.

And it appears Gardiner is back but he's new to the cast,  too, he was in the first installments played by  Mark Gatiss and really sort of snide and evil and now is  played by Alex Jennings in the last three installments, who is the more subtle,  on the surface quite controlled, but apparently in reality very nasty and genial at the same time, another tour de force of acting, but I don't know what to make of the restrained genial but at the same time slimy Gardiner except that he has worked his way with Henry who just (did I see that correctly?)  dismissed Cromwell in front of the two of them, which is a pretty astounding and frightening thing actually, to see.

It looks like the Tide has Turned as they say. But when did it happen?


Cromwell says he's lost his way, and immediately everything starts to go wrong? I'm sort of spinning , myself at these new developments and need to see it again. I  have forgotten what actually did kill Jane, mother of Henry's  newborn son, but it wasn't rich food, and I'm not sure Cromwell was correct in saying he could have prevented it.

Lots of puzzles in that one last night. Off to find out what DID kill her.

[BarbStAubrey]

I agree that Cromwell probably could not have saved her however, I took it as his love and devotion to Jane Seymour that he had hidden quite well and his 'if only' is one of the first stages of grief that of course no one knew the 4 stages of grief till only recent times -  like flush toilets -

And yes, Henry dismissing Cromwell in front of another was very ominous, foreboding of things to come since we know the story... He already spoke of how Henry could have anyone killed and so they are all living on the top of pinheads. 

the one thing that hit me was - and I wonder if you Pat remember - but before penicillin, that was not made available except for the soldiers, when you got really ill with a high fever I remembered the chills and feeling not too much differently than how they depicted Cromwell in his illness - which by the way they never did say what he was ill with - I wonder if his being ill was worked in the story rather than bringing in his son having actually died from the sweating sickness. 

What I did not get was when he visited the monastery with the bees that he had said to the daughter that once it caves to his control he would like to live out his old age there - what confused me is after he walked through the gardens to the front door he sees an image of a women and turns never going inside. I do not know who the women was - if she was real or a figment of his imagination - and what was the meaning of his avoiding her or her image and the house

Not sure I want to watch this episode again - it was a downer but then the next few will all probably be downers - The one bright spot was seeing the baby's cradle or bed with all the art work on head and foot boards

[ginny]

Well I have now watched it again and took notes this time, half of which I can't read,  and completely missed this:

What I did not get was when he visited the monastery with the bees that he had said to the daughter that once it caves to his control he would like to live out his old age there - what confused me is after he walked through the gardens to the front door he sees an image of a women and turns never going inside. I do not know who the women was - if she was real or a figment of his imagination - and what was the meaning of his avoiding her or her image and the house

I don't know.  I'll need to look at it again. His illegitimate  daughter had just asked him to come with her and he would be safe and he had said when he got control of this Abbey (here again throwing them all out)  he would be a beekeeper, and here they show him approaching with something like happiness the current? Abbey which IS pretty and the bee keepers and I missed the woman entirely. Entirely. Following the plot it should have been Dorothea, Wolsey's daughter because he clearly says it's her denunciation of him which has ruined him.  Apparently he wanted to retire to the bees in  the Abbey which he confiscated.

Note Wolsey's ghost is still gone, have the two women said his piece for him? Is that why they are there? Dorothea comes to him in his fever and says the same thing she did before.

I feel that the guillotine, not to mix metaphors, is falling. Echoed by AGAIN by footage of poor Ann Boleyn losing her head. It's getting pretty broad with the  hints. Is this his life falling in front of his eyes, all his failures, all the things he did wrong?

Looks like Reginald Pole self harmed himself rather than deal with Cromwell. Cromwell here shows no mercy at ALL (why? at this stage of the game, does he hope to get back in Henry's favor?) and Cromwell BEAMS here at the thought Pole  will disown his own family (with predictable results), positively an evil glint in his eye, which I am sure is pretty hard for Mark  Rylance to produce.

Wouldn't you like to know what the actor was thinking? Maybe one of our political figures in mind?  hahaha

To me this is the climax of the book. Cromwell realizes he has failed. She asks him DID you fail Wolsey and he says" I don't  know. I don't think so,  But it's undone me, her accusations. I have lost my way."

And there it is,  that, to me, is the  climax, the rest will be a disastrous fall. All his striving to change his class, he's the Keeper of the Privy  Seal, none higher except  the King, and it's all in ruin. It has destroyed him.

But why this time is it in ruin? Are  his enemies, (Gardiner/ Norfolk)/the Poles too great? How has he lost (which he thinks he has), the favor of the King?

It literally makes him sick. He gets that strange fever, he staggers to the King, sees Gardiner talking to the King, tries to dismiss him peremptorily  and ends up being told to leave, himself , by the King and the two to make friends.

I can't read the rest of my handwriting.  hahhaa

WHY does this seem so devastating to him? He's overcome more than this before?

Now at one point he does say if Jane had been married to HIM she would not have died. I wonder if somebody snitched?

[BarbStAubrey]

My take on Cromwell is that Dorothia's condemning him for not being there for her father was a wound so deep - the crying scene i think was the end of the Cromwell we saw earlier and he never recovered his spirit - not sure if it was the loss to him of Dorothia and that this conclusion of his love for Wolsey was misinterpreted or that he did not see it and he really did let Wolsey down - but it matters little in the overall bundle of actions that led him to stay in Henry's court to right wrongs based on his attachment to Wolsey - For Cromwell he thought he was showing his love and loyalty to Wolsey for whom he thought he gave his life and he failed -

Aha that is the reason for the daughter to be from Antwerp - Martel is showing us that Cromwell could have had a fine life elsewhere other then in Henry's court.

Since the meeting with Dorothia he lost his spunk and 'just' work supporting Henry that was not for Henry but rather in doing so he thought he could better bring Wolsey into the King's favorable light - it did not happen and now those who were closest to Wolsey only saw his absence not seeing his love for Wolsey and so the spirit went out of him as he even doubts himself and everything that has happened since is simply going through the paces - he has lost the fire in his belly therefore, anyone can take him down, who has the scent required to pursue power - all they have to do is see or smell his weakness, his loss of spirit, his deep sadness. His old enemy, Gardiner sees and smelled his weakness therefore, easily slipped in taking Cromwell's place with Henry. 

Yes, even his illness makes more sense now... the wrecking of his body is emblematic of the sickness and wreck of his spirit.