Fiction ~ Old ~ New ~ Best Sellers #2

[rosemarykaye]

This is the place to talk about the works of fiction you are reading, whether they are new or old, and share your own opinions and reviews with interested readers. Every week the new bestseller lists come out brimming with enticing looking books and rave reviews. How to choose?

Discussion Leader:  Judy Laird

pop - a noise that something makes, eg a balloon popping, and yes Barb, also one of my grandfathers - my mother still refers to him as "pop" (although he has been dead for nearly 50 years).  Drinks would never be called "pop" in my childhood.  The Corona man brought "fizzy drinks" (all strongly disapproved of by my mother...)

poke - to prod something or someone (but this is not what my children would think it meant) - and didn't someone in a Dickens' novel have a bag called a poke?  The one who is expecting a judgement daily?

hog - a big pig or indeed "to hog" would be to take more than your share

America - for us that would always be the USA, we have never become accustomed to calling the US + Canada "North America".

Interesting exercise Jean!

Rosemary
Soon - yes, that is a very elastic term!  Especially when said to children I'm afraid.  If we are travelling and I say I need to find a loo "soon" I interpret that as within the next 10 minutes, whereas husband apparently thinks I mean "any convenient time within the next few hours, or maybe we won't bother and she can manage till we get there".

[MaryPage]

pop  ....   soda

poke  ..... valise

hog  .....  ham

America  .....   my country

soon  ..... presently

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok here you go - Gospel and Country - both 'Soon' - great to know either and sing back when the next time you need to say soon...or sing back when someone says to you soon...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZz8VG171hY

http://www.videodetective.com/music-videos/soon-video/679996

[salan]

Barb,  How about a poke bonnet or poke greens; or the rather risque meaning (as in Lonesome Dove, when Gus asked the prostitute if he could have a "poke")?

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh yes, forgot about Poke salad...good Salan...never did have nor do I remember any of the women in my family having a poke bonnet - knew about them but we just did not go down that path. What can we say some guys can even make something that could be crude sound easy and natural... 

[roshanarose]

Some of the words were "pop,.... poke,.....hog,.....America,.....soon"

Hmmmm. 

Pop : a sound when uncorking a fizzy drink; sometimes used for grandfather e.g. my grandsons call their grandfather "Poppy".

Poke - Jab someone or something with your finger

Hog : A Harley Davidson motorbike; a male pig

America : This is a tricky one.  My ex father in law who was a geographer insisted on using the words United States of America, Central America and South America, which I still do, if I remember.  My Salvadoran students insisted that they came from Central America, so I used that too.

Soon :  Is this apocryphal?

[Steph]

as in Pig in a Poke.. One of my mothers favorite expressions ...

[salan]

Oh yes, Steph....A pig in a poke...I had forgotten that expression.  My mother used that saying, also.  Ummm, never thought about it them,, but now I am wondering..What is a poke referring to??  A pig pen???

Hog--a large pig, someone greedy.  When I was little, my younger sister & I would sleep together in the winter under piles of quilts.  One or the other of us was always "hogging the covers".
Sally

[Babi]

Ah,yes, ROSEMARY. My husband's father was especially bad about, from the stories
his wife and kids told me.  With Bill, I was more specific. It was "stop at the
next place with a bathroom!"

  The 'poke' in this case, SALLY,  was the large bag the pig was carried in.  The idea was that
is was dumb to buy a poke that someone said had a pig in it.  You might open it later to find it wasn't a pig at all and you'd just been conned. 

[MaryPage]

THERE you go!  The valise that popped into my mind when I saw the word "poke!"

Roshanarose, I am with you on the America thing.  In the Geography curriculum I wrote for First Graders I was careful to teach them that this entire hemisphere and the one below, north to south, save Antarctica,  is America.  We are either The United States of America or just The States;  but when we say "America" by itself, we include Canada and Greenland to the tip of South America.  Did you know that Greenland is part of North America speaking geographically (physiographically)?

[BarbStAubrey]

Gives new meaning to - "America, America, God shed His grace on thee,: And crown thy good with brotherhood: From sea to shinning sea."

[ursamajor]

Yes, but if you are in Ireland and someone mentions America you can bet they mean the United States.  I wonder if this is true in Britain as well.

In my dialect, poke means a paper sack.  I don't know how you would get the pig into the sack.

When we were vacationing in New England we were told if we wanted ice cream in our milkshakes we should ask for a "frappe" - pronounced frap.

[rosemarykaye]

Ursa - yes, almost anyone here saying "America' means the USA only.  Ignorant, aren't we?!

Rosemary

[Gumtree]

Rosemary Not ignorant at all - it's simply the common usage in your part of the world - in mine too speaking generally. Usually when we mean all of America we say 'The Americas'

[MaryPage]

I agree that the majority of citizens of The United States of America and most of Europe mean The States when they say "America."

But we here in these United States are mistaken if and when we think we are the only peoples entitled to the designation "Americans."

[maryz]

Re America:  The branch of the Smithsonian called The National Museum of the American Indian contains information about the native populations of all of North and South America.

I try, especially when we are out of the country, to refer to "The States" or "the US", rather than "America".

Interesting words for getting to regionalisms.  To me,

pop  ....  to pop a balloon, a verb (I never heard that to refer to a soft drink until I was grown)

poke  ..... I only use it to mean to jab someone, a verb; although I also know it as a bag or sack and as "poke sallit" (a spring green picked to cook - learned after we moved to TN)

hog  .....  a large pig, noun; to grab too much of something, verb; later learned it as a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

America  .....   see above

soon  ..... within a short period of time - definitely variable.

Lots of words have variable meanings - depending on context and whether they're used as nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc.

Fun with words - there are a number of words with contradictory meanings: 
cleave - to cut in pieces; to join together
scan - to read quickly; to study carefully
etc.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ursa' it may have to do with those areas who retain an older historical relationship with the world and then were essentially cut off once they arrived in the States -

Paper sacks or bags if you are from up north were only manufactured after the Civil War and were not readily used in rural areas -

Bigger cities were mostly in the north as well and so I think it could be that may be why a poke was more easily translated as being a paper sack as opposed to a muslim or burlap sack used in mostly rural areas where it wasn't till after WWII that paper sacks were common -

I even remember as a child going to an A&P which was supposed to be a national chain and the groceries were wrapped like a gift in brown paper from a roll on the counter along with a large ball or cone of twine - We all had these little wooden hooks that we twisted onto the twine to carry the package of groceries home. At the time there was no supermarket and even at the A&P everything was behind the counter with a young boy who would climb a ladder on rollers across the shelves to drop down the product or if it was not stored very high a long pole with a clamping device was used - it was all placed on the counter - and everything was added up on the paper that was used to wrap it - a good grocer knew how to stack things properly for a balanced wrap.

Whooops gotta run - time...

[mabel1015j]

Barb - liked the video. As i've said before, i'm not very religious but do like listening to the Gaither shows. There is also a "station" of Live 365 online radio that is all acapella choirs of religious and classical music that i love and often have on while working on the computer. Anyway, "soon and very soon" is a good cliche for this exercise.

You've all, or y'all, have gotten most of the answers the managers gave......"America" meant the song to some. To some African Americans who were old enough to remember the '60s and  70s cadillac, it was a "hog", similar to the Harley D, BIG, just BIG!

Altho i grew up w/ a poke being something my mother told me to get from the pantry to put something in, not many people in my classes knew that context - a bag to carry something - unlike many of you.

Yes, i always pointed out to my college classes that the 50 states are the United States of America, but Canada and Mexico and Central and South Anmerican countries also are of the Americas.

Along w/"soon" i would sometimes give the phrase "in a little while". How much time is that? To some it meant w/ in the hour, others had a much longer time frame, or "being on time." amazing, to me, was that that could mean up to fifteen minutes past the agreed time! I am always "there" before the agreed upon time and have had to learn not to have my feelings hurt by people who think of time much more flexibly (a word?) then i do.

Jean

There are, of course, no right answers, doing the exercise is self explanatory of how people can misunderstand other people's words to them, especially in a community as diverse as the US Army, which has not only people born in the US, but many people who are from other parts of the world.

[mabel1015j]

 I should have said "people born all over the United States" since our regions and cultures have vast differences in understanding terms and, yes, the list of examples could be much longer. It was always fun and informative to go through the process.

Now the question for this site is do authors have to think about their wording re this concept of difference and do we as readers have to be coscious of our interpretations when we read?

Just saw this that Babi posted in "mystery" hope you don't mind if i relate it here, Babi

"Quote
The accents sometimes throw me.
  I was surprised to discover, when I started
reading lips (to the best of my ability) that I could recognize when someone was speaking with
an accent by the way their lips formed the words.  Unfortunately, other than the English accent,
I'm usually unable to 'read' those speakers.  And of course, so many people speak too rapidly
to be 'read'.  The words run together."

A whole other potential area for confusion!


Jean

[Tomereader1]

This is so funny!  Not too many weeks ago, I was going to a book club group, and I had my usual tote bag, plus a larger handled paper bag with some foodstuffs in it.  A dear friend came in as I did, and being contemporaries, she asked "Whatcha got in your poke?".  I laughed then, as it had been awhile since I had heard that term, but I'm laughing even more now that we are talking about "poke".  My mom used to say, "Well, he sure bought a pig in a poke".  I had no idea, at the time, what that meant!

[maryz]

I've heard the expression "to buy a pig in a poke" all my life, and have always understood what it meant.  But I've never used the word "poke" to mean a bag or sack.  Funny.

English is a strange and difficult language.  I'd hate to have to learn it as a second language. 

[BarbStAubrey]

And just as interesting to imagine Gospel Music to be religious -

I guess it is or can be but it is also on the radio all the time - some places more than others - like where my daughter lives far more than here in Austin

However, it is like there is Rock and Roll and Jazz and Blues and Gospel and, and, and - so that there are some well known Gospel singers and well known Gospel songs just as there are well known Blues singers or heavy metal bands and there are local musicians and local singing groups -

Some churches do feature Gregorian Chant during their services never the less, there is many a recording especially, around the holidays of groups singing plainchant and we do not call it religious - yet, there is a tinge of religion since the holiday is a Christian holiday -

It is all sorta confusing but I still do not think of Gospel Music as religious although, it can and is sung in some  Christian Churchs -

[BarbStAubrey]

Mary I grew up with the expression but I always associated it with the same expression I learned many years later as an adult - Buyer Beware...

[rosemarykaye]

Jean - this topic became especially relevant in this house last night, as husband came home and told me that the people in Orkney who are installing the wave energy machine  are taking ages to do it.  When we discussed it further, it transpired that their concept of things like "safety", "testing", etc was quite different from that of the people back in Edinburgh.  I told husband about our discussion here, and how it highlighted the fact that you need to be super clear when giving instructions.

He also said that when oil companies work with Brazilians, they are told to remember that when a British or North American person says they will do something, they generally will, whereas Brazilians have quite a different view of saying "yes" and what it means.

Barb - have you ever heard Taize chant?  I have only heard it on the radio, but I would like to hear it in a church.  Chanting is very spiritual, I think.

Rosemary

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I've heard Taize chant which I believe is a meditative form of chanting - where as, so much of what most of us call Gregorian Chant was music approved by Pope Gregory and thereafter called Gregorian Chant and is simply the early form of western music that includes plainchant and polyphony -

The early plainchant music had one singer - usually a soprano voice or a flute singing a simple melody that by today's standards is pure with very little melody and the other voices were almost like a drone as if playing a dulcimer with one note the melody and the others tuned to different notes in the same scale and strummed  as a background sound - I think that is the music of a bagpipe as well.

Later, there were two voices that mimicked one another and then later the one singer had a different set of notes to sing with at first an attempt at being harmonious. This was the polyphony of music which was for the church as well as the halls, banquets and walks of the pilgrims to their holy places or on the way to their holy wars.

Too often folks label all this music as church music but it is simply the churches did a good job of saving everything and the church in Rome ran the entire western world - even with kings, the principle players in the running of things was the clergy appointed by Rome, often a Cardinal. And so while Gregory gathered some music we still have Byzantine, Mozarabic and Ambrosian chant and a cache of other music from other parts of the world.

The music of the streets included music popular in the brothels - dance music often recorded as Renaissance and Baroque were only composed by folks whose names we know in about the fifteenth century -

The concept that plainchant is religious certainly flies in the face of how in the Orthodox Jewish practice no female singers are heard in the temple by men - There are several accounts of how this practice came to be adopted.  One version is that women were in the habit of singing similar to the Egyptian clapping and dancing to drums in their temples by men and women - the other version has more to say about how the secular concept of simple music come into the picture - women on the streets clapped and danced while singing most of them enticing 'skintrade' and so it was deemed that women should no longer be allowed to sing with the temple choir (I know choir is a Christian expression but I forgot what the singing group in a temple is called) prior to women excluded it was a practice that everyone sung during services for I believe it was 10 years that was later continued and made a law for men to have to sing in temple for a certain number of years.

Many, even teachers call plainchant only that music that was sung in Latin during the middle ages but when you study the history of western music you learn plainchant goes back to the 3rd century and it is simply a step along the way in the growth of music till Bach really took off followed quickly by opera and symphonies using the minuet and concerto of earlier times that was built on the shoulders of chant which was built on the single voice plainsong or plainchant.

[MaryPage]

I do think of Gospel as having a religious base, but I also do not think of it as "religious" music.  Oh my, I cannot HEAR the word "gospel" in reference to music without instantly remembering Mahalia Jackson.  How I loved that woman's singing.  I've never been able to just sit and listen to her recordings:  I have to stand up and dance and sway and join in.  'Specially with Joshi Fit The Battle of Jeri-co, Jeri-co, Jeri-co.  Joshi Fit The Battle of Jeri-co and them walls came tumblin' down!  Woo-EE!

[mabel1015j]

Just in case you have forgotten what the 1959 Cadillac looked like and why it might be called a "hog."

http://www.cadillaccountryclub.com/cadillacpictures1950s.htm

and a definition of gospel music....from wikipedia dictionary


Gospel music is music that is written to express either personal, spiritual or a communal belief regarding Christian life, as well as (in terms of the varying music styles) to give a Christian alternative to mainstream secular music.
 
Like other forms of Christian music, the creation, performance, significance, and even the definition of gospel music varies according to culture and social context. Gospel music is composed and performed for many purposes, including aesthetic pleasure, religious or ceremonial purposes, and as an entertainment product for the marketplace. However, a theme of gospel music is praise, worship or thanks to God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit.

The Gaither group that was singing "Soon and Very Soon" is definitely a religious based group.

[maryz]

A couple of friends here are very active in a gospel group (one singer and one supporter ).  Our grandson-in-law-to-be sings with a very active gospel group in San Diego.  I only mention race to stress the point that although a lot of people think of gospel as strictly African-American - and that's definitely not the case.

[maryz]

This is odd - above this is what posted (partial) of what I put in the reply box.  I'll try again....

A couple of friends here are very active in a gospel group (one singer and one supporter ).  Our grandson-in-law-to-be sings with a very active gospel group in San Diego.  I only mention race to stress the point that although a lot of people think of gospel as strictly African-American - and that's definitely not the case.

[maryz]

For some reason, it won't post what I wrote - not a long post, just about some friends both here and in CA who participate in gospel groups - one black and one white.  So not strictly an African-American thing, as some seem to think.

[BarbStAubrey]

Home the home of Gospel music is in northern Alabama and most of the groups are white folks - and if you tell them it is religious or church music they too will look - take a double take and then agree to a point - but then whoever wrote the wikipedia piece must not be from where we hear Gospel on the Radio as often as Bill Monroe, Carrie Underwood, George Strait, Lyle Lovett, Los Lonely Boys or Stevie Ray or Waylon and the boys. Again, sounds like different areas of this country have a different concept of both music and religion - what can you say...

[BarbStAubrey]

I think I may have figured it out - we consider Gospel music Soul music - which can or does not have to be sung in a church although many folks are in touch with their soul in church - some folks just like being rocked in the belly of soul even with a glass of whiskey in their hand or a broom in their grip.

[roshanarose]

maryz - I loved your entry about Poke Sallit.  There was a song that had the words:

"Poke Sallit Annie, the 'gator got your grannie."

For an Australian to hear it, or at least the way I heard it, it sounded like:

"Polk Salad Annie"

I am glad that you have clarified it for me.

Oddly, I have never considered Canada as anything but Canada.  I have never seen it as part of "America", but I guess it is on the same continent.

I found the song.  I hope no one minds me including it in its entirety.  I just love this song.

If some of y all never been down sout too much
I'm gonna tell you a little about this so that you'll Understand what I'm talkin' about ...

To understand what we talking about
Down there we have a plant that grows like a turnip green
And everybody calls it poke salad ... poke salad
Used to know a girl lived down there and she'd go out
In the evenings and pick her a mess of it, carry it
Home and cook it for supper, cause that's about all they
Had to eat, but they did all right.

Down in Lou'siana,
Where the alligators grow so mean,
There lived a girl that
I swear to the world,
Made the alligators look tame

Poke Salad Annie
Poke Salad Annie
Everybody said it was a shame
Cause her mama was a workin on the chain gang
I mean, vicious

Her daddy was lazy and no count
Claimed he had a bad back
And all her brothers were fit for
Was stealin watermelons out of my truck patch

Poke Salad Annie
The gators got your granny
Everybody said it was a shame
Cause her mama was a workin on the chain gang
A wretched, spiteful ( (?))

Every day 'fore suppertime
She'd go down by the truck patch
And pick her a mess o' poke salad
And carry it home in a tote sack

Poke Salad Annie
The gators got your granny
Everybody said it was a shame
Cause her Mama was a workin on the chain gang

Sock a little poke salad to me
You know I need me a mess of it

Sock a little poke
Sock a little ah ah ah
Sock a little oh oh oh
Sock a little ah ah ah ah ah ah

Poke Salad Annie
Poke Salad Annie
The gators got your granny

Poke Salad Annie
Poke Salad Annie
The gators got your granny

[Steph]

Hm,, lots of experts on music and I certainly am not. but.. at the Grand Ol Opry, they still tend to have at least one gospel type song in each performance, so country music considers gospel as a category....

[Babi]

 Nope, MARYPAGE, I never would have imagined Greenland was part of 'America'. It's
purely wonderful to me the things I can learn just by coming in here every day.

 URSA, I'm pretty sure the pigs that wound up in the pokes were small, young pigs.
You're certainly right about trying to get a full sized pig,...much less a hog...
into a carrying sack. Couldn't carry it if you did.

 Any time, JEAN. 

English is a strange and difficult language.  I'd hate to have to learn it as a
second language.

  Mary Z.
 Ain't it the truth!
 
 Your remarks about Gospel Music surprised me, BARB.  Why else is it called 'Gospel'
music?  Mahalia Jackson immediately came to my mind also, MARYPAGE. Really, when
you think about it, it is surprising how moving some of these old simple songs
can be. Have you ever heard that old song, "Farther Along", sung in harmony?
Oh, Lord, I wish I could hear it again, especially the refrain, "We'll understand
it all by and by.."

[BarbStAubrey]

I know Babi - I've been trying to sort it out all night - the best I can up with is that it is like voting - I just do not think of voting as patriotic and yet, it is labeled patriotic - when I vote I do it because;

One, it makes me feel good, accomplished.

Two, I like seeing my neighbors and having a minute to chat with them when some I only see a couple times a year and know they are as interested in our community as I am.

Three, it makes me feel I am having a say in how the things are run.

Four, it is a culmination of a lot of figuring out how close the person or expected ordinance is to my way of thinking and my values.

Five and finally, it is a process that is reminiscent of accompanying my Mom to vote when I was a kid and so it feels like not only carrying on the tradition also, I feel nostalgic for the memory of hearing her talk as we walked all the way to the voting station while she sorted out to us the reason for her vote.

When I have completed the process of voting someone offers me a sticky paper American Flag showing my patriotism - I guess it is a patriotic act but patriotism seems a far cry in explaining the reason and process of voting, nor is it the reason for most of my friends.

While trying to sort this out comparing it to music I am thinking the same rational can be used to explain Gospel music - it is more like feel good acknowledging how things are run and fortifying values along with nostalgia for a traditional sound - I can even see how it would bring about a feeling of spirituality but religion naw -

In fact most of these songs and way of singing is as far as can be from the music of my religion as it is for most of the churches in this city - If for instance the Oak Ridge Boys or the Gaithers or Carrie Underwood or Mahalia Jackson start singing it puts a smile on the faces of most folks and they want to get moving or chat with even strangers. The music seems to say, make a connection with someone.

And so if getting work accomplished and being friendly and wearing a smile is religious - I guess so - but then Gospel music sure unifies a room full of folks with various religions and no one is thinking they are the ones with the inside line.

Religious says to me, a certain reverence with certain prayers and certain beliefs and certain way of showing respect for a God and each other along with, a hierarchy that preaches and runs the show and collects funds and sees to the continuation of the building and the religion while guiding a controlled representation of the religion to the community at large. And I just do not get any of that listening and singing along with "How Great Thy art" or "Soon".

[MaryPage]

Roshanarose:  from a Virginian (a Southern state of mind):

Poke weed is only edible in the very early spring, and only when just coming up out of the ground.  Experts know.  My black mammy (yes, I had one) knew.  Then you have to boil it twice.  Otherwise, it is toxic and will kill you.  I remember it fondly, though, as the very tastiest green I ever ate!  Honest!  She used to pick it when she took me for a walk.

A "mess of" is not a mess here.  It is a lot of something.

[jane]

Maryz....I think the reason your posts didn't work is because of the [ ] you used.  The coding here uses [ ] and I think it was trying to read the words you had within the brackets as code.  Parentheses or rewording it as you did lets it post.  Just a coding problem for the software otherwise with the brackets.

[mabel1015j]

Have always loved the song "Poke Sallit/salad Annie", especially by Elvis.

Barb, you and i apparently both like the musicality of "gospel" music. If you know Sam Cooke's music, he started out as a "gospel" singer, songs that had lyrics that related to theological concepts - god, heaven, being saved, Jesus, crucifixion, etc. When he crossed over to "popular/top 40" songs, he often used similar music and harmony and "soul" with lyrics that related to love, earthly relationships, heartbreak, etc. If you are familiar with the "hymn" I Come to the Garden Alone", when i was a tenager, we had a minister who wouldn't allow us to sing that song, he said it was a (earthly) love song.  LOL  i'll look for the lyrics. But ever since then i've heard many "gospel" songs that could very easily be sold as a top 40 "love songs".
 
 

[mabel1015j]

The minister had a point!!!

I come to the garden alone
While the dew is still on the roses
And the voice I hear falling on my ear
The Son of God discloses.

Refrain

And He walks with me, and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own;
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known.

He speaks, and the sound of His voice,
Is so sweet the birds hush their singing,
And the melody that He gave to me
Within my heart is ringing.

Refrain

I’d stay in the garden with Him
Though the night around me be falling,
But He bids me go; through the voice of woe
His voice to me is calling.

Refrain