Fiction ~ Old ~ New ~ Best Sellers #2

[MaryPage]

This is the place to talk about the works of fiction you are reading, whether they are new or old, and share your own opinions and reviews with interested readers. Every week the new bestseller lists come out brimming with enticing looking books and rave reviews. How to choose?

Discussion Leader:  Judy Laird

Some names I have gotten a big kick out of are:  Colonel, Major, Captain, etc.  Nothing like being born with a rank!  Legally, yet!

[roshanarose]

Hey Barb - What makes you think that Australians have their minds in the gutter.  Did you know what Randy meant before I posted it?   Bad Girl!!

[roshanarose]

MaryZ - Both Randy and Bitsy come from TN (too hard to spell) or thereabouts.  I do know that Randy likes to find old arrowheads in the Tennessee River (spelling?)  He sent me one made of flint and it is beautiful. I had a pendant made of it.  It is bound with leather and hangs on a chain of bronze.  People ask me about it when I wear it.  However, frankly, I feel a bit guilty about it as it is considered illegal in most parts of the world to collect archaeological artifacts.

Interesting about pin and pen pronunciation, MaryZ.  The Australian accent and New Zealand accent are very similar.  The one distinguishable difference is the pronunciation of pin and pen.  If it is a pin Australians say "pin", but Kiwis say "pen".  They are often teased about this difference, but I like it because it gives me a chance to chat about NZ and declare that it is one of the most beautiful places I have ever visited. 

My poor ex was often teased about his accent at school here in Australia.  He has difficulty saying "purple" and "Harry" to the satisfaction of Australians.  His accent is a hybrid.  He came to Australia when he was 11 so still retains his accent, but the Australian accent is there too.  When he goes back to the US many of his relatives tell him "you talk funny".  You just can't win

[roshanarose]

MaryPage - I herewith grant you the right to address me as Lieutenant, Louie for short

[maryz]

Roshanarose, you spelled Tennessee exactly right.  And people find arrowheads around here a lot.  I have one myself that I found.  It's not illegal to possess them, so don't worry - at least here in the US. 

[rosemarykaye]

Roshanarose - my son was tormented at school for his "English" accent (although he was born in Scotland), but every time my mother hears him she says "Oh, he has such a Scottish accent I can't understand him" - the latter is a gross exaggeration, but as you say, you can't win.  At least as adults we don't get bullied about it.

Rosemary

[Gumtree]

Roshanarose - not to prolong the 'Randy' discussion - it brought author Randolph Stow to mind - he was a West Aussie and one of my favourites.
but to family and friends he was always known as Mick.

And I just thought of actor Randolph Scott - but back in those days we were too innocent to make any unseemly connections. 

[Steph]

MaryZ,, I have some friends from the hills of Tennessee, but they always say.. Tinaseeee. Love to listen.

[Babi]

While 'pen' and 'pin' aren't the same phonetically, it would be really hard for
most of us to detect the difference. There are so many words like that, but we
are used to recognizing them from the context.

 Of course it's pronounced 'tinaseee'. How else would you pronounce it. 

[JimNT]

Re "pin" and "pen", I started my career in Washington, D.C. and the office was staffed with at least half Pennsylvanians. As a Louisiana native, it took me literally years to detect the subtle difference in the two words and when I pronounced the name of the state university as "Pinn State" my Pennsylvania friends would laugh with great gusto.  As one might expect, those weren't the only words I butchered.  I do, however, enjoy words and respect the Kings English and while not an etymologist or philologist, I have never learned the appropriate word, I desire to speak and write correctly, if only for the most part.  I still use "y'all", have difficulty distinguishing between "bring" and "take" (I've always blamed the Cajun dialect in the southern part of the state in which I was reared), and commit numerous other non sequiturs.  Actually, I like regional dialects and regret that they seem to be gradually disappearing.  Too soon we'll no longer speak of "dawgs", "hawgs". and "harrses" and that's too bad.

[maryz]

Hear, Hear!  JimNT!  I love regional dialects and pronunciations and hate to see them all disappear.  Even though I talk about them, and certainly have my own.  IMO, "y'all" is perfectly good usage - as long as it is used properly - as the second person plural.     It's fun to try to figure out where folks are from by their accents.  Three of our grands were born and raised in SC, and I assume (and hope) they'll never completely lose their soft southern accents - even though the oldest is now living in southern CA. 

[rosemarykaye]

We lived for 5 years in a very small village in Aberdeenshire, where the local lingo is called Doric.  it is English but with its own variations. eg "Fit like?" (= "How's it going?"), "Mucktie aye" (= "fine thanks").  You "gang awa" ("go away") for your dinner, you have a "fly piece" (cake or biscuit eaten as a mid-morning snack") at the "back of ten" (= before 10am) and you do your "messages" (= shopping).  I never ceased to struggle with this, especially when it came to conversation with the older residents.  The younger ones would switch into plainer English for my benefit - when they were talking amongst themselves they spoke much faster and with so many local words that it could have been double Dutch for all I knew.

I don't think this is dying out at all - families in that area tend to stay very local, whereas down here in the Edinburgh hinterland there are so many English people that you would be hard put to think you were actually in Scotland.  "posh" Edinburgh residents also tend to have English rather than Scottish accents - at least, they don't sound English to me, but they certainly wouldn't sound Scottish to someone from Up North.

Rosemary

[maryz]

We loved the various Scottish accents we heard (Glasgow, Beuly, Skye, Orkneys, Highlands).  But we did have a delightful conversation (?) with the housekeeper where we were staying.  I assume she understood as little of what we said as we did of what she said.   But what a lovely, kind lady she was.

[CallieOK]

When we were first married and my Mississippi born-and-bred husband said he was "fixin' to carry his Mother back to work", I had to stifle giggles at the mental image.

After we moved to Colorado and the daughter answered the phone when I called a friend, I would ask "Is your Mother there?"   She would always say, 'Mom, it's Mrs. K___".  I wondered how she knew - until I thought of how many "r's" were in my question.  
Although I didn't use the phrases my DH did, my southeastern Oklahoma accent, which is similar to those of Arkansas and East Texas, stuck out like a sore thumb!

[rosemarykaye]

MaryZ - to me, people from Orkney sound Welsh.  The accent is very lilting and unlike anywhere else in Scotland.  The Highlands accent is beautiful.  Glaswegian - well, that is another story!

When I first moved to Scotland, a hairdresser asked me if I "had any family" - I eventually realised she did not want details of my mother, aunts, etc - "family" means children as far as they are concerned.  I have also been asked many times in Aberdeen "where I stay" - the first time I carefully explained that I was not on holiday, but lived there.  In fact, where you stay is where you live in Aberdonian.  In London, of course, we would say "where do you live?".

Rosemary

[mabel1015j]

We have a cousin whose first name is King because his Mother's maiden name was King.

There is actually a dialect called "western Pennyslyvania dialect" altho it comes out of the central Pa area that has the "Pa Dutch" and "Scotch-Irish" immigrants. I was 23 and teaching when i said to my friend who was an English teacher  from the Bronx, "my hair needs washed." She said "WHAT?" i had no idea what she was asking. I has been using that form of grammar all my life, everybody around me did to. She said"it's either my hair needs washing, or my hair needs to be washed!" 

I found a wikipedia page that laid out the "western Pa" dialect when looking for some ancestral background. I'll find the link. Frybabe, you may find it interesting living in that part of the country.

Here tis!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Pennsylvania_accent

Jean

[rosemarykaye]

Oh yes Jean!  That's another Aberdonianism - I remember that when I used to stand in the queue at the old post office, there was a notice that said "Does your letter need signed for?" - I always wanted to scream "Does it need to be signed for?"

I must admit I didn't realise it was a dialect thing, I thought it was just the post office being illiterate.....mea culpa 

Another thing they say in Aberdeen - and again it always jars to me - is "amn't".  Even the deputy head of my son's primary school used to say it, and she had a degree in Classics, so maybe I should stop being so judgemental 

It is pitch dark here and pouring with rain - and my husband is out in the garden trying to install a new washing line thingy.  Ironic, no?  Weeks of hot dry weather have passed whilst I had nowhere at all to dry clothes, and now the heavens have opened and he is Grimly Determined to sort it out 

Rosemary

[Frybabe]

I distinctly remember being made fun of for saying one day, "Throw me down a sweater." I was in the basement at the time, and it was chilly. Jean can attest, I am sure, to the many strange looks from people when we say we are going to "redd up" around the house. I haven't heard "you'ns" for years now. I didn't know there was anything wrong with "my hair needs washed".    Thanks for the link.

[MaryPage]

Roshanarose, here in the States we say Lou - tenant and in the U.K. they say Lef - tenant.  So what do you say Down Under?

And why not be a General officer while you are about it?

[rosemarykaye]

"Redd up"  Translation please 

Lots of Scots say "yous" as the plural of "you", but I haven't heard "you'ns" before.

[Tomereader1]

some of the southern African-Americans still use "stay" in lieu of "live".
i.e. - Where do you stay?

And "You'uns" sounds very mountaineerish to me, like Arkansas, Tenn., N. Carolina, anywhere there were and might still be "backwoods" folk.

[maryz]

"Redd up"  - do some housework.

I never heard the term "you'ns" until our daughter met and married a guy who was from Cleveland (Bradley County), Tennessee.  I didn't know it was used any place else.

Another one is the pronunciation of the diphthong "ou" as "oo" instead of "ow" - as in pronouncing "about" as "aboot" and "hoose" for "house".  It tends to show up along the eastern seaboard of the United States - mostly in Tidewater (coastal) Virginia.  According to what I've heard, it was spread all along the coast by merchant seamen.  Interesting bit of word history.

[Tomereader1]

Loved that Tidewater...my sister in law used to entertain us saying
"there's a moose in the hoose, let him oot". 

[pedln]

Rosemary and roshanrose, what is a "Wally?"  Grandson Will was christened William Alden, and because he had two cousins Billy and Will, he was called Wally.  When the family was living in the Phillippines for a year this little 2nd-grader was told by his little British and Australian friends not to be a "Wally"  because a Wally was not a good thing to be.  Overnight he turned into William.

[roshanarose]

pedln - A Wally is a silly person, one who makes silly mistakes or says silly things.  There are many words used to describe people who do foolish things here.  My favourites are "Drongo" and "Galah" (both Australian bird names).  Wally must be a fairly recent addition to AUS English, because my father's name was Wally and he was never made fun of.  Wally is, of course, short for Walter.  My mother always used Walter when she was displeased with him.  

MaryPage - I have a friend in the RAAF and he informs me that we pronounce lieutenant as "left tenant".  I think this is a bit silly.  Lieutenant sound much better  If you are suggesting I be called General, I am quite happy with that.  Thanks

I like the expression Y'all.  Sounds mighty friendly.

You will hear a few different Australian accents here.  One of the most extreme is what we call 'Strine.  So called because of its very nasal quality,  all the way up to cultivated English.  I have a virtually accentless voice, but can turn on the 'Strine very easily.  Crocodile Dundee and Steve Irwin both have/had 'Strine accents, but the way they speak, contrary to popular belief o/s, is not the way all Australians speak.  The States of Australia don't have their own accents, but there is some vocabulary that is different.  Also pronunciation - In Queensland where I live now they say "Cassell" for Castle, but because I am from NSW, born in Sydney, I have always pronounced it as "Carsel".  

JimNT - I agree with what you say.  IMHO there is no such thing as a "bad" accent.  I think that idea may have been popular on the playing fields of Eton. Remember "My Fair Lady" and her accent?  Overseas Actors have said that the Australian accent is difficult to learn.  I attribute this to the fact that not enough people watch Australian movies

[rosemarykaye]

My son, who is at the age at which they seem to keep up with these things, appears to call people "muppets" these days rather than wallies or drongoes.

[Gumtree]

I'm way behind in this conversation - could comment on all sorts of things already raised but will restrain myself to just a couple.

Lieutenant - had a brother in the Army and when he was first commissioned he was Lef-tenant - and later it was Lef-tenant-Colonel as well. But I have the sense that our Navy favours Loo-tenant but not sure on that.

Rosemary: Lots of those expressions you regard as Scots dialect were alive and well here in Aust when I was a child - My mother always used 'messages' for the 'shopping' and I did too - even now I say it occasionally.

Roshanarose: I agree the accent between Aussie States is almost indistinguishable these days - it mostly shows up in odd words like 'Castle' which you mentioned, and the use of port for suitcase, cossie, togs and swimmers for bathers etc - but it was not always so - In the early 1950s my family moved to NSW and my young brother was asked where he was from - he replied WA and got the response 'Ah! I knew you were a foreigner because you speak funny!' and of course then the NSW people really did have a different accent from the Sandgropers.  


Someone mentioned the use of names like Major as first given names - this is not strange at all - In DH's family there are three generations of fathers and sons named Major C---- .  For them, Major was just a family  surname being used.  

[Steph]

I love accents. They are getting less common in the US, but we still have them. TV has changed the way people speak of course.
My Mother was a virginian..They mostly have a lovely soft drawl..Get Further south and it gets much wider.. Louisiana in the country has quite an accent, Cajuns speak a mix of french and English and it is tricky to understand.
In Scotland, Orkney people spoke a more musical form of English.. But in Glasgow, I found it truly hard to figure what they were saying.
My husband was a radio announcer when we first met. He spoke in unaccented english, but he was like a mockingbird in that when he talked to someone and they had an accent, as they spoke, his voice would change to whatever accent they had. Fascinating to listen to.

[maryz]

When we were in England last year, we visited with an old friend from TN.  She lives most of the time in VA, but has a flat in a village near Oxford.  Her daughter (born, raised, and schooled in TN) married and moved to England about 25 years ago.  She's definitely picked up the accent, and now sounds very much British.  I don't know how she sounds to a native Brit, but I didn't hear any TN left in her speech.  Lovely.

[Babi]

 Me, too. The dialects and accents are wonderful. It would be a terrible pity to
lose the enchanting Irish lilt or the rich Scots brogue. The soft southern voice,
the highly distinctive regional accents of Brooklyn, New Jersey, the Ozarks, etc.
  People here in the States do seem to be much more mobile, ROSEMARY. We don't
have those centuries of background, where people seldom went further from home than
the next village. Our roots are much looser.

 ROSEMARY, do pardon me, but I had to lol reading about the clothes line going up
in the rain, finally. 

 STEPH, I used to do that, too, without really noticing. It was really brought to
my attention when an Englishwoman glared at me, and I realized I had slipped into
her accent and she thought I was mocking her. Red face!

[mabel1015j]

My whole family, still living in south central Pa, say "redd up" for clean up and "you'ns" and crick for creek, and "rinze" for rinse. Now i'm near Philadelphia and hear "youse". I also grew up with "outen the light" which is from the Pa Dutch of south central Pa. My husband and children love my biological family's sing song "are YOU(much higher on the scale) go-in'?" (sliding down on the "in'"). My DIL who is from north central PA says "bool", like "pool" for bowl and i grew up saying "aboot" and caafee for coffee which my college friends from Philly say cawfee.

Yes, i love these dialects/accents.

Jean

[rosemarykaye]

In one of Ian Rankin's books he has Inspector Rebus travel up to Aberdeen, which is referred to as Furry Boots Town - as in the standard greeting "Whereaboutsyefrom?" 

Rosemary

[maryz]

John always teases me because of my saying "pull the door to" for "close the door".  I get a lot of "can I push it from" 

My family is from NE Texas for several generations preceding mine.  A lot of expressions that I heard growing up are actually Elizabethan English, filtered through North Carolina.  Interesting how that works.

[jane]

And here in NE Iowa I was confused when I first heard...."my gooms are really aching today."  My mind was HUH?  Turns out it's what I pronounce "gums"....the tissue that holds your teeth in!!.

[Steph]

When I first moved to New England, we were putting in a new yard, I called to get a load of top soil and the man kept telling me about loom.. I kept saying , I dont want a rug and he was confused as was I. Finally figured it was loam.. That and the fact that they called soda.. Dope.. and a milk shake does not necessarily have ice cream in it up there.

[Babi]

A lot of the old English was preserved in the  hill country of our Eastern
and southeastern States.  With less contact with the outside world, it was easier
to pass down the old phrases and dialects.

 A milk shake without ice cream? So, what do they add to make it a shake?

[mabel1015j]

In a management training class i taught when i worked for the department of army i would start the communications section by giving them a list of ten words and ask each one to write the first thing that came to mind when i said the word. Of course there were people from all over the country in the classes so it was not only informative - that even tho we may both be speaking "English" words may not have the same meaning- and fun.

Some of the words were "pop,.... poke,.....hog,.....America,.....soon"

What do they mean to you?

Jean

[CallieOK]

pop...what a firecracker does (if capitalized: Coke, Dr. Pepper, et al)

poke...nudging someone with a finger or an elbow

hog...a big pig

America...the country where I live

soon... not very long from right now

I could add these words with regional meaning:

roll...bun...fix...make...prepare

[mabel1015j]

Soon - HOW long from right now???

Some people say 5 minutes and others would answer "oh no! 20 minutes" or "within the hour"
So my point was for managers to be as specific as possible or they could be creating problems for themselves or their employees.

Where i grew up "pop" didn't have to be capitalized to mean "soda". All soda was pop! And the word stood alone, not "soda pop!" 

[BarbStAubrey]

pop,.... either my grandfather or a Big Red - all other soda water was called soda water or by its name -

poke,.....a cloth sack used to bring home large amounts of either fresh produce or feed from the feedstore and my grandmother said poke for a small drawstring bag that held the change and our note of what to buy when as children we went to the store.

hog,.....someone who takes more than their fair share

America,.....lots of possibilities according to what year in school - from an Indian named America to the US of A to the name of this continent to a magazine published by the Jesuits.

soon,.....in awhile - when I have time - anytime in the next couple of hours, days or years, - what you tell a young child knowing they will forget and there is no time or money to satisfy their request - A countrywestern song.