Couldn't Keep it to Myself ~ Wally Lamb and the Women of the York Correctional Institution: Archived Book Discussion

Welcome to our new area and discussion for two days of Bonnie Foreshaw's "Faith, Power, and Pants" and I know a lot of you have been anxious to discuss this story, so let's plunge right in!

I thought it would be good to begin with Dale Griffith's Christmas Greetings, and so have copied it here so you can see it, also:

daleg - 07:23pm Dec 26, 2003 PST (#935 of 938) Happy Holidays from Dale Griffith

I'm so impressed with the questions and comments you've all raised, and I'm touched by your concern. I've meant to get connected a bit more but the holidays steamrolled me. My three semi-adult children were all home for the holidays -- my eldest just became engaged, so it's been a pretty exciting time (and I worked right up to Christmas Day). Tomorrow I'm off to Broadway with my younger two. I need some gaiety after the last couple of weeks at the prison. Teaching at the prison is especially hard around the holidays. Moms are separated from their children; some have no one to even send a card; they aren't allowed much celebration. At the school, we have a holiday assembly (a couple of years ago Wally and the Lambettes dressed in hand-made "lamb" hats and sang "Writing with Wally Lamb" to the tune of "Walking in a Winter Wonderland" -- (I refer to this in my essay). Another year, Wally wore an Elvis wig and sang his own rap song! This small gathering consists of teachers and students presenting little skits, songs, dances, and jokes (very poor ones)-- it's a touch of light-heartedness during this dark time. We all need it. The inmates sometimes don't seem as blue as I when special days come around -- many of them haven't had too many joyful Thanksgivings or Easters. In truly dyfunctional families, children don't have piles of presents and warm cocoa on Christmas morning -- I'm don't think some of the women/girls know how beautiful life can be -- never having experienced much warm stability. Most seem to "handle" prison better than I imagine myself handling it. Maybe they're just superb at making the best of it, or maybe they're denying the reality of their lives. I don't know. I only know that their positive spirits raise my own -- and, when I buy gifts for Toys for Tots and other charities, I like to think that some of my students'kids might receive my gifts. People sometimes think I'm "good" to work with inmates but the women give me far more than I give to them -- through them, I've learned to be grateful for my own blessings (my beautiful children, my good health, my warm home, and so much more). Enough from me tonight. I thank all of you for your support. One thing you can do for the writers who are still "inside" is write to them. Their inmate numbers are in the "book"; the address at the prison is: York Correctional Institution, 201 West Main Street, Niantic, CT 06357. Let them know you're thinking of them -- it'll mean a lot. Blessings to all.

Carolyn has noted that there don't seem to be the inmate numbers in the book so when Dale gets back from her well deserved holiday we will ask... a lovely idea for the New Year!

Meanwhile, let's look at Bonnie's essay, I'll put up a few questions in the heading but I'm looking forward to hearing what you would ask or what you think?

Today and tomorrow: Faith, Power, and Pants~!

What's YOUR reaction?
ginny

I will also say in passing I REALLY enjoyed the audio link that Nancy B sent us, of the interview with Wally Lamb and Robin Cullen and Tabbi Rowley, such wonderful soft voices they all have they could be all on NPR and Tabbi can REALLY sing? Yes she can and now I can't get the doggone song out of my head, woke up singing it, in fact, hahahaa but I figure there are worse things to be singing so let it continue!

I heard Robin say that she felt out of place as none of those types of things/ background stuff had happened to her and that makes me like her essay even more (and I already liked her essay a LOT) so it's interesting to HEAR them and their perspectives, and the title song.

I have a REALLY slow modem? And so it kept stopping. Wally would say something and then stop mid sentence and then 10 minutes later he'd begin again, so I foolishly thought that opening more players would help so I had the "Dueling" interviews, had it going on Real Audio and Windows Player and for a minute there, they all began talking at once, Wally Lamb, the announcer, Robin and Tabbi, all at once, and I can't describe it but it was magic? Sort of a.....I loved it, I was across the room doing the dishes, having given up when all of a sudden all these thoughtful voices began speaking at once, sort of a contrapuntal type of thing,....it was an experience, try it! hahahaha

ginny

http://eyeonbooks.com/nonfiction/0303/wallylamb.html

I listened to it about 4 times.. and heard and understood something new each time... I'm deaf and could turn the speakers up LOUD. But I wish we had a transcript.

JoanK - What is the preventative medicine you mentioned?

Ginny - Your computer has to buffer each little part of the recordings in order to download and then play. Then it stops to buffer some more and then play some more. But the NEXT time you play it, it should already be in your own computer temp files and play more "together" than it did the first time, if that makes any sense. If your computer is REALLY short of RAM, it's possible to have the same problems that way, too, but not as likely. Look for the file in your player and try it, or I can probably tell you how to find it and play it from your TEMP files.

Even with the lousy speaker on my jury-rigged temporary setup, this very brief interview packed a lot of wallop, particularly because I have read the book and even more so because I have participated in this dicsussion. I actually got chills at one point when Wally was speaking. I was hit when one of them said something to the effect that "these are stories of human beings," and then when one said she was forced to answer the question, "How did I get here and what do I do now?"

The clip added yet another dimension to this already multi-dimensional experience.

I have learned so much from the book and discussion and have gone on to learn more from the books recommended in the back of CKITM. I am struck by a similarity between writing as healing and the Catholic confessional. But with writing as healing, I think it is not so much that someone offers you absolution (especially since no one else may ever see it) but that you have a means to examine yourself in some way, and that having a place to put down your burdens lightens your load so that you can move ahead.

I have finished three of the recommended books that I did not have previously and am writing like a madwoman every day. I'm writing four different "things" for four different purposes, none of which is intended to see the light of day. And my burden is already much lighter. Thank you, Wally Lamb, the Women of York, and the authors of the other books. If I had to choose just one of the recommended books, I would choose Anne Lamott.

"There is a preventative medicine you can take if you've been exposed. The three of us seniors who had had our flu shots didn't take it, because we thought we were protected. And we all got the flu." Someone said that just before the last area was shut down for mesages.

What is the name of the medicine? A friend of mine mentioned something called amantadine - if your doctor says it's ok for you to take it.

Linda

Inquiring minds on this flu preventative. I have had the shot, but worry since our granddaughter is asthmatic and has had pneumonia once already and the doctor wants her really protected this winter.

She needs to get the flu shot. The other is if you get the flu, it will help you get through it.

That's what I understand of it anyway.

Golly Folks, I'm sorry, was up at the crack , I say the crack hahaha of dawn today putting in the questions here but they seem to have disappeared, so while we're frantically running around trying to find them again (I WONDERED why none of you were answering them? hahahahaha I guess I know now) do any of you have any thoughts on Bonnie Foreshaw's story? We will be looking at it today and tomorrow?

hold on....

ginny

Et voila! The questions are back, what are yours, and we're good to go again, all is well, and all things happen for a reason, I expect this happened to call attention to them!! What are your thoughts today on Bonnie's essay?

I know many people said it moved them tremendously, would you care to say why? What about it was outstanding?

ginny

I have to be honest and say that although I respect Bonnie for her beliefs I do not believe faith is supposed to put us in bondage. The story is well written and I had very clear visions of Bonnie and her family and the feeling of what we would call whanau here (extended family). I feel sorry that the rules and regulations of Bonnies faith caused her so much pain. However I cannot understand it.

Carolyn

"In many ways, prison takes away a woman's identity along with her freedom." Part of Bonnie Foreshaw's identity is her Rastafarian religion. I also believe that a good part of her strength as a prisoner comes from that religion. Rastafarianism gives Blacks the kind of status much of the rest of the world denies them. The philosophy of the Rastafarian faith is "Freedom of Spirit, Freedom from Slavery, and Freedom of Africa." The Black messiah, Ras Tafari, was Haile Selassie of Ethiopia. The body must be kept pure, and the Ital diet is vegetarian. Dress for women is skirts whose hemlines are below the knees and a head covering. Bonnie Foreshaw was forbidden these parts of her faith which she believed kept her body strong and her spirit whole, while allowing her to put the pain of her past behind her.

When Bonnie refused to wear the regulation "uniform" required when Niantic became stricter, and in Bonnie's words, "shifted from rehabilitation to punishment", she was sent to "Seg", or put in isolation. She was not just being punished for her crime; she was punished for her beliefs. Finally, Bonnie Foreshaw came to the realization that "actions speak louder than pants". That says a lot to me.

I couldn't find much about the Scoffield Bible, but believe it is a fundamental interpretation based on the Hebrew rather than the looser King James version. Rastafarians also hold an antipathy toward the Pope, implying to me that Catholic interpretations of the Bible are not acceptable to Rastafarians either.

Mal

PAT, as I understand it the Cyrus Ingersoll Scofield Study Bible and the Matthew B. Scoffield translation are two different things.

Where did your post go?

Mal

Zinnia and Pat, thank you for the information on the buffering of the link of the live interview, I can't GET "Couldn't Keep it to Myself" out of my HEAD! hahahaha

I think this is a very difficult story and appreciate you trying to attempt it, Carolyn and Malryn. We have seen that Bonnie is a strength to other prisoners and we can see that her own faith is very important to her and provides a strength to help her get thru life, as it's supposed to. Most religious beliefs have restrictions. I am not familiar with Rastafarianism but I did have a course in Old Testament (and New Testament) and know there are many interpretations of the ancient scriptures, and that they were written for specific reasons, and open to much interpretation and understanding.

I found it interesting that Bonnie mentioned Mahatma Gandhi, since we here have just finished reading his autobiography, I wonder if she has read it.

Gandhi was a prisoner many times because of his own beliefs and he was quite, hung up, you might say on clothing and also things of the body, he would never have wavered, however, and would have stayed in any hole rather than compromise his own beliefs, and the clothing thing with him was not religious.

You can see now moved Bonnie was by the Jewish guard's solution, I just loved that one, it speaks to me of pil-pul, in which Jewish scholars debate the scriptures and find their own interpretations. I am unclear, however, on how the subsequent putting on of the pants would exonerate the wearer, but again, I am thinking that perhaps men did not wear pants, but rather robe like things (I am totally ignorant here, so please correct me) when Deuteronomy (which is the same in the KJV as the one quoted) was written. It's difficult, because you have to interpret the scriptures with a 2003 emphasis?

I see Bonnie as truly and honestly trying to follow a faith to the best of her ability, which says more for her than it might for me, for instance, and paying for it.

Whetner or not we happen to agree with those particular tenets is not the point, I think.

You could get into a discussion of all religious beliefs and why people follow them, but in her case, (and it was interesting to see that Rastafarianism does not reject Christianity, it simply seems to stand apart) she was doing the best she could.

What did you think of the attitude of the Wardens? The unanswered letters, etc.?

If YOU had been the Warden, would you have allowed her to wear a skirt or have insisted on the pants? What difference would it have made?

ginny

Yes, I would have allowed her to wear her skirt. I cannot think that it would have made any difference... The skirt did not endanger her safety.

Sometimes people in charge forget that rules can be bent if for a good reason.. Their feelings for power prevent them from doing the humane thing.

To answer a previous query.. My granddaughter has had the flu shot. It was the other I was worrying about. Now to Bonnie. Rastafarians are interesting in that there seems to be several different paths. To some extent I am used to that in that I am a Philadelphia Quaker and there are other forms of Quakers depending mostly on what part of the country you live in. The pants.. and the Bible. I am a big fan of King James, but mostly because of the sonorous rhythms involved. There are so many different interpretations of the bible, seems to depend for each on what they want to believe. I think the warden was stuck. If she allowed Bonnie the skirt, I would bet there would be others who would immediately decide their religion allowed them to do other clothing variations. But at the same time, Bonnie has some deep feelings about this. I struggle to understand, because clothing and manner of dress is not really addressed anywhere in the bible. Clothing has changed so much over the years.. The headdress wearing seems to have more to do with owning of women than the actual woman, so I do have a lot of problems in any sort of style that depend on the patriarchy. Still Bonnie makes such a heartfelt plea. I find myself so drawn to this woman, who could not be more different than I am. The writing is powerful and seems to come straight from inside.. A powerful essay.

I would think that nuns of many years ago, if put into prison, would have worn their habits. A vow is a vow is a vow. I'm glad it got worked out for her though.

It was a very interesting story. Don't you feel we are getting to know these gals pretty well?

Christianity is believed by some Blacks to be a "white people" religion. Rastafarianism was founded in Jamaica for Black people by a Black man, Marcus Garvey, in the mid 20th century. Emperor Haile Selassie, a Black, is considered by Rastafarians to be God. Rastafarianism is a religion for Blacks which professes that:

"1. The Black men are reincarnations of the ancient Israelites and were exiled to the West Indies because of their transgressions.

"2. Haile Selassie is the living God and the Emperor of the World

"3. Ethiopia is Heaven. The Jamaican situation is hopeless Hell.

"4. The Black men are superior to the White men, they will soon rule the world.

"5. Soon Black men will avenge themselves on the White man.

"6. That their God and Emperor will soon arrange for their homeland, Ethiopia." - p.270 (Quoted from the Rastafarians by R.Dix p.13.)

Bonnie Foreshaw says, "Look, I understand how power works. Coming of age in the 1960's and '70's, I was in line with Bobby Seale's and Angela Davis's demands for equality for all Americans." Bobby Seale and Angela Davis were considered radicals. They were passionate about their cause. Bonnie Foreshaw was equally passionate about hers -- equality for all people. She is not just fighting to be allowed to practice the tenets of her religion here, she is fighting for equality. Yet she tells us that she had seen "over and over that it was unwise to challenge authority unless it was absolutely necessary." Her fight to wear skirts was absolutely necessary to Bonnie.

I wonder how many prison guards at York are Black? I have read that there is a preponderance of Black prisoners in North Carolina, and wouldn't be surprised it this were true of the whole country.

Born in Jamaica, Foreshaw and her family moved to South Florida. A big part of family life for Bonnie and her family was music, just as it was for Tabatha Rowley and her family, We had trouble getting into the heart of Tabbi's story, and I believe the reason for that and the fact that Bonnie Foreshaw's story seems difficult is because the majority of us here in this discussion are not Black; have not been a part of any Black culture, and have not suffered the kind of repression and suppression that Black people have. I don't think Black people would find this story difficult at all.

Foreshaw says, "I guess you could consider my father to be my first jailer and Aunt Tilly was the second." Bonnie's father, whom her mother divorced when she was four, was a drunk. Aunt Tilly, one of Bonnie's sitters, ran a gambling parlor in the living room of her apartment. Bonnie was forced to stay in the one bedroom whenever gambling was going on.

Bonnie had been abused by two cousins and given a venereal disease by one of them when she was a young child. Her mother's second husband, Mr. Fred, was an "equal-opportunity abuser" to his wife and to Bonnie. This included his trying to rape her. From that time on, she was shipped out to other relatives when Mr. Fred was home and allowed to go back only when he was not there. Her childhood was everything but good. "Sometimes I feel like a motherless child."

All these things led Bonnie to "walk on the wild side all those years ago, married men that hurt me, and then crossed back again." Is it as easy for you to see the reasons why Bobby Seale, Angela Davis and Rastafarianism would appeal to Bonnie Foreshaw as it is for me to see them?

Mal

Stephanie - My great grandmother was a Quaker but her children became Presbyterians- they were Scottish. My great gran had a dress code. It was grey dress or black- grey or black stockings - no makeup hair never cut and coiled softly round her head. To me she was a stern lady but my Mum says she was a gentle darling.

Technically, Bonnie's story is not as well written as some of the others; it reads more like an unedited diary entry. But it still packs an enormous emotional punch. I think her religion was one of the few things Bonnie could hang onto in the demeaning environment of prison, and that made her reluctant to compromise what she saw as its tenets of faith. She views the Biblical passage she quoted as an absolute prohibition against women wearing pants.

Then, after she has suffered some of the consequenses of her refusal to comply, at an emotional low point for her, someone comes along with a proposed solution. Page 207: "Suppose I go get the pants and come back here. Suppose I put them on you. That way, come Judgment Day, it would be me who'd have to account for the disavowal, not you..." And she gives in. After that, she is able to comply with the dress code on her own until October 2002 when the prison authorities allow her to wear a skirt.

I don't think she would have been going against her faith even if she had complied from the start. Whether the pants are put on by someone else, or you put them on in a controlled, coercive environment where you are forced to do so, makes little difference. Still, I admire her efforts to try to live up to her own interpretation of the tenets of her faith. I believe it helped give her a feeling of power in a place where she was essentially powerless. And the writing about it gave her a voice to express her thoughts about this confrontation with those who held almost absolute power over her.

The question of whether religious rules regarding women's clothing in this, or any other faith, are really a correct interpretation of the Bible, or an attempt by a society of men to limit the opportunities and rights of women, is a separate issue. I'm sure you all have opinions on this. We should keep in mind that many of the women living under Islamic theocracies were only too happy to abandon the restrictive dress forced upon them as soon as they were able.

Bonnie Foreshaw was fighting for her rights, just as she had most of her life. It is her right as an American citizen to practice her religion, and it is her right in this country to follow its creed wherever she is.

Horselover, I think Bonnie's story has been edited well. Just as with Tabatha's story it's not as easy to find the lines as in some others. Perhaps this might be a cultural thing, just as I suggested about Tabbi's essay.

My strong opinion here -- I think most woman do not look good in pants. Most of us are not hipless and model thin. I love skirts, always have. I don't need to hate men, wear pants and be called Ms to know I'm all for women's rights.

Mal

Mal, Precedents in the law show that practicing your religion anywhere and under any circumstances is not an absolute right, even under the U.S. consitution. Cases involving this right come before the Supreme Court regularly.

Some women, it's true, do not look their best in pants. But some also do not look so good in skirts, especially those that are too short for them. I think these days, women have learned to dress mainly for comfort. High heels look attractive, but are uncomfortable and unhealthy. I personally like pants, and I think it's possible to find a wide enough variety that look well for any occasion. Katherine Hepburn once said that she didn't even own a skirt. I have not gone that far.

Loved the music in the story. I grew up loving it, too. It's always been a rather large part of my life.

Rastafarianism isn't something I know much about. I first heard of it from a novel that took place mostly in Jamaica. The dreads came from the book, too, and Ann Lamott's Traveling Mercies. I am not shocked or turned off at all by it.

Horselover, does this mean nothing then?

The First Amendment to the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Underlining is mine.

I suppose the issue arises when there's a discussion about what constitutes a religion. Does a prison warden have the authority to determine what one is? The Jewish prisoner was allowed to have Kosher meals sent in, wasn't she?

Mal

This is an interesting story. It almost seems that it presents two "Bonnie Foreshaw". The strong, beautiful woman we see in the picture is shown in her obvious love of life: the music, the dancing (I loved that -- evereyone can dance, if they can move at all -- I'm going to remember that one). The swagger, and the FOOD OH MY. And then we hear that this strong, life loving woman was in three abusive marraiges!!! What happened??? What happens to us women when we make decisions about men? This has been a theme throughout. Most of the stories involve bad decisions about men.

Then we see a broken woman in prison fighting to hold on to the one thing (her religeon) that is holding her together and failing. That is what gives the story its "broken-back" feeling. It is two stories, and we don't see clearly how they come together.

This is the story where it seems most clear that the sentance she got was completely unfair. The story told looks like manslaughter (an accidental killing). But she seems to have been at the focus of several prejudices (sp?) annd it cost her a life in prison. Does anyone know whether the woman she killed was black or white?

It also is clear that she had a right to wear skirts. Whether we agree with her religeon, or like pants isn't the issue. There were many compromises the prison could have made: srong stockings or tights under the skirt for example. Again, it may have been simple prejudice.

I got the impression it wasn't so much her religion that was keeping her from wearing slacks; it was that she had made a vow about it. That's a promise to God - anyone in or out of any religion could make a vow. We make vows when we get married. It could be associated with religion or not.

Not sure if I'm getting my point across or if I even have one.

Linda

Sorry to just but in but wanted to pass this article along. Am currently aware from the book and my computer. D and SIL's computer is in sleeping area and access is LIMITED. This editorial about ex-offenders was in today's Seattle paper.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2001824534_peirce28.html

If it hadn't been for CKITM, I would probably still be glossing over articles on prisons. That has now changed.

Pat, thanks for the link to the interview. D's computer has DSL and headphones. Loved hearing Tabi sing.

Americans enjoy a degree of religious freedom unknown in most of the rest of the world, and they take full advantage it: the United States is home to more than 1,500 different religious bodies and 360,000 churches, synagogues and mosques.

The right of each and every American to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The Constitution's framers understood very well that religious liberty can flourish only if the government leaves religion pretty much alone. The free exercise clause of the First Amendment guarantees the right to practice one's religion free of government interference. The establishment clause requires the separation of church and state. Combined, they ensure religious liberty. Yet cases involving the freedom to believe continue, both in Washington and in state legislatures around the country.

Interpretation of the Bill of Rights is often a balancing act. In general, the Supreme Court has held that States and institutions cannot ban the performance of (or abstention from) physical acts solely because of their religious motivation. But the First Amendment Free Exercise Clause does not relieve an individual of the obligation to comply with a law that incidentally forbids (or requires) the performance of an act that his religious belief requires (or forbids) if the law is not specifically directed to religious practice and is otherwise constitutional as applied to those who engage in the specified act for nonreligious reasons.

I think we can see that the prison's pants requirement would pass the constitutional test as defined by the Supreme Court.

There have been exceptions made regarding some laws because of religion. For example, the use of Peyote in a religious ceramony is granted to specific Native American tribes. It is illegal for anyone else to use or even possess the hallucinatory drug. Also the hunting of whales off the coast of the United States is prohibited with the exception of certain native American tribes in Alaska where it is considered part of the religion. I believe a certain tribe in Washington State is also fighting for that right. The wearing of pants or skirt seemed like a pretty trival thing to me. I believe it was strictly a power play and I wonder what their reasoning was.

MAL, I agree that unless you have lived as a black person, you have no idea what it is like. Add the color of your skin to the stigma of being a former inmate and I cannot even imagine how hard it must be to make land a job or be any kind of a success after getting out.

I had to return my book to the library, so I will have to go on memory from here on.

PEDLN....good to see a gradual change occuring. Thanks for the article.

Bobbie

Hi everyone,

I'm having some trouble gaining access to the NET. We're in Florida visiting family and something's gone wrong w/my laptop. I took it to a repair shop and a crossing my fingers that they'll be able to fix it for me within the next day or so. I'd hoped to log on for a little while each night this week and finish up answering the questions you've all asked of me, and I really wanted to comment some on Bonnie's and Barbara's stories, as they both affected me deeply when I first read them, but for the time being I'm in line behind 5 teenagers to grab a few minutes on my mom's computer, and since we're not staying here . . . well, I'm sure you get the picture! I'll try to get through a little bit tonight, but it might be the end of the week (after I get home) before I finish up!

Question # 25. Yes, most of my current colleagues know about my background. I've been a part of the JCC college community for almost 10 years now, in varying capacities from student to mid-management. I really don't know how to adequately describe the respectful support I've been blessed with throughout my years at the college. My former professors, who are now my colleagues have truly celebrated all my successes right along with me, and I'm sure this loving support has as much (or probably more) to do with my personal development and spiritual growth as anything I've done for myself.

The common denominator of all the formerly incarcerated individuals I've ever known, who have moved forward successfully in life, has been the presence of supportive mentors (more often than not coming in the form of teachers).

Concerning my incarceration affecting my relationships with my colleagues, well, I know some closed-minds have opened up a few times in the past, as the direct result of my own self-disclosure.

I recall some years back, an English professor I knew from working as a student assistant in a campus writing center, and who was very vocal about her non-support of prison education, kept asking me if she could read something I wrote. She told me my own professors had told her about some of my writings, and she kept asking and asking to read something. I knew how she felt about former inmates and that she supported the ban of Pell grants for felons, so I was afraid to let her read any of my stuff, because it all related to my past in one way or another.

Well, one day I felt so angry about something she said (which I perceived as plain old meanness and ignorance) that I pulled out an essay I'd written titled, Nobody Ever Dreams About Growing Up to Become a Junkie, and I handed it to her.

She took the essay to her office to read, and after about an hour she brought it back to me, in tears, and told me that she had no idea . . . and that I had really caused her to think hard about her narrow and unfair opinions, and that she was truly sorry not only to have hurt me with her words, but to have been so disregarding of others as well.

Today this woman not only treats me with amazing respect, but believe it or not, she teaches classes at one of the prisons, which she tell me is the result of a lesson I taught her!

How do I feel about monkeys today?

This'll probably sound like the doggondest thing you've ever heard, but I never disliked real monkeys, only the monkeys of my nightmares or the ones who lived in Oz scared me.

My dad used to marvel at how I had such terrible nightmares about monkeys, and yet I always seemed to love them. At the zoo, I'd run to the monkeys first. I drew pictures of monkeys, begged for stuffed monkey toys, heck, just the other day I got down on the floor at my dad's house and had my picture taken with my head up next to a life-sized monkey stone statue/end table in my folks' family room!

And yes, I still kind of get the creeps when I see those those evil winged OZ monkeys, although of course it's all toned down a few notches from when I wrote about it for the book.

Well, I guess my time's is up for now. The crowd is getting rowdy, and it's hard for me to think about what I'm writing, but I'll try to grab a few more minutes soon.

As always, thanks for all your hard work and wonderful "conversating." Peace, love, and best, Nancy B. :0)

Where can I find the link to Tabbi's song and the talking?

Linda

Wally Lamb, Robin Cullen, Tabatha Rowley interview

It was good to hear Thabatha sing again. I went to search but could Not find it so Thanks again.

LINDA,Thanks for asking for it.

You're welcome, GINGEE. Goodnight. Sleep tight.

Mal

NANCY, it was really good to see you back here yesterday. I hope you're having a pleasant vacation in Florida.

It did my heart good to read about how you helped change the attitude of the English professor who was so negative about rehabilitation of incarcerated people. How great that she's now teaching in prison!

I was thinking that most people have monkeys they don't like in their lives. Don't you think so? Seems to me you've done a very good job of quelling yours and putting them where they belong!

Mal

I know that I should not feel like this, but Bonnie's crime if described accurately seems to have drawn an incredible sentence. I have no idea why hers is so much heavier than anyone elses.. Ikeep feeling like this woman is not a threat to anyone and probably never was. Just herself.

Linked below is an article about Attorney General Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut's opinion and views about the payment of cost of incarceration by writers of Couldn't Keep it to Myself. Bonnie Foreshaw's payment would be over $913,000.00.

Attorney General Blumenthal

Sorry to be a bit delayed in getting in here, but I'm here now and have read Barbara Lane's story and am completely speechless and totally blown away, I can hardly think. I'm like her standing and chopping but her feet would not move? I think my mind has shut down, I can't think of any questions or anything at all, the story just blew me totally away and I don't know why exactly, what effect did it have on you?

In addition we have in the heading (the questionless heading and it may have to stay that way unless YOU can think of a question) a link that Nancy Birkla gave us to an article on Barbara's work with the dog training program, I must read that to hear some good news here about Barbara, that things are working out. I did read Wally Lamb's coda, I am just blown away totally by her story, I don't know what to say.

Let me go back and respond to what you all have said, some normalcy, something to grasp on to here…. To me, Barbara's story is the most powerful in the book so far, I literally can't....let's look at what you all have said on Bonnie!

I agree, Pat, that I would have let her wear the skirt and that power sometimes goes to people's heads. It would not have been a safety thing but as Stephanie said, then everybody might have developed a religious reason for something, too, and as Barbara has so devastatingly shown us, they often do develop "religion," but it's not religion that you would recognize.

Stephanie I liked you take on it, also, I thought, myself, the reason why she had such a long sentence was that two lives were taken?

I liked Stephanie's thoughts here, also, "But at the same time, Bonnie has some deep feelings about this. I struggle to understand, because clothing and manner of dress is not really addressed anywhere in the bible. Clothing has changed so much over the years" I agree, and I struggled, too, to understand, but I did have the feeling she was sincere, did you all?

That's a good point, Hairy, on the habits, and your remark about getting to know them well really stuck with me for a while, I agree, I thought we were, too, till I encountered Barbara, who seems to be Me in Wonderland and who seems to be losing her…..her…..innocence?

Malryn, an interesting assessment of Bonnie and Tabbi, I did not have any difficulty understanding either one actually, that is to say I think I understood their stories, I can't say I lived them. I can understand a person needing the strength that religion brings, Rastafarianism is not strictly (and thank you for pointing out those tenets, now I AM confused) doesn't Bonnie say Thank you Jesus? Then how can Marcus Garvey be God? Sort of a second coming type of thing? Confusing, but I do understand how religion can lift a person up and make them strong, whatever it is.

In this case tho I think I would have a hard time convincing myself that the subsequent donning of the pants did not matter (but who knows, I'm not in that situation)?? When I read Barbara's reasonable account of an unreasonable and to me, intolerable circumstance, well….

Horselover I agree with the technical aspects of Bonnie's story, what did you think of those in Barbara's? Did you feel it held together? How about the chapter titles? Did the title Puzzle Pieces fit it all? (this is a question, thank you Horselover for taking that POV ) Was it tied in together to make a puzzle picture you could understand?...

I'll have to copy that one in the heading.

This is pretty, Horselover, and what I also think:

I believe it helped give her a feeling of power in a place where she was essentially powerless. And the writing about it gave her a voice to express her thoughts about this confrontation with those who held almost absolute power over her.

But what did you mean by this one:

I don't think she would have been going against her faith even if she had complied from the start. Whether the pants are put on by someone else, or you put them on in a controlled, coercive environment where you are forced to do so, makes little difference.

Would you explain your reasoning there?

I agree, Hairy, about the music, and I also don't know much about Rastafarianism.

What was your opinion, Hairy, about Barbara's story, you were not shocked so far, were you then?

Joan, this is a super point, the two Bonnies:

The swagger, and the FOOD OH MY. And then we hear that this strong, life loving woman was in three abusive marriages!!! What happened??? What happens to us women when we make decisions about men? This has been a theme throughout. Most of the stories involve bad decisions about men.

You are right. I don't KNOW. And of course as we see in Barbara's piece, she seemed normal, did she not? And then whammo what a marriage, jeepers.

Oh well said here, "That is what gives the story its "broken-back" feeling. It is two stories, and we don't see clearly how they come together."

Will you please turn that eye on Barbara Lane's Puzzle Pieces?

What's the feeling you get from IT?

Oh Hairy, good point on the vow thing, a VOW is different, and if you were the least bit superstitious, it could kill you to break one, that's an excellent point, I think you made there!

Pedln, thank you so much for the article on ex offenders and your mentioning you are reading them now rather than glossing over them, I am too, we appreciate your truly heroic efforts to keep joining us!

more… boy I have been reading your posts all along but did not realize how far behind I was!

Denjer, it does seem a trivial thing, the skirt versus the pants, I guess we will never know what their side was, because apparently now she can wear them? What do you remember about Barbara Lane's essay? What is your impression not looking back?

Nancy Birkla!!! My goodness, there you are in Florida on holiday, with family, with laptop trouble, having to line up to use your mom's computer!!! Bless your HEART for trying, we do so appreciate it. Every time I come in here and see "Nancy Birkla" my heart leaps up hahaahah. You and Pedln I think win the prize for "those who have overcome the most obstacles this Holiday Season to post, " I think, you both have really gone the extra mile, how delighted I am to see your name here and read your wonderful answers!! THANK you!!

(How CAN you get near a monkey? !? ) I am fascinated that they appeared in your nightmares but in the zoo it's different, I wonder why?!? WHY!? (I have not seen the Oz movie are they larger than life or nastier I see you say they have wings… …don't answer that, they aren't worth the revisited angst, nasty things) hate monkeys. They hate me, too. My idea of hell is to have to be in a room with a monkey. Yecch!

My goodness, what an inspiration YOU are, wonderful story about "Nobody Ever Dreams About Growing Up to Become a Junkie" and the professor who now teaches at prisons!!! THAT is wonderful! Nancy, I have to know when you are able, and get back home, what was YOUR reaction to Barbara's story??

I REALLY REALLY would like to hear everybody's reactions to Barbara's story?

Malryn, thank you for the article on Attorney General Blumenthal, I have tried twice and it won't come up for me, are the rest of you able to see it?

WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK ABOUT BARBARA'S STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do say?

ginny

GINNY, Rastafarians consider Haile Selassie to be God. Marcus Garvey was the founder of the religion in Jamaica, as I understand it.

Mal

Ah, did Haile Salisse have any children? Where does Jesus come in here? (I really am not sure why I am asking as it really makes no difference to the story, belief is belief).

"1) Rastafarians have a doctrine of avatar, which is very similar to Hinduism. They believe, 'God revealed himself in the person of Moses, who was the first avatar or saviour. The second avatar was Elijah. The Third avatar was Jesus Christ. Now the advent of Ras Tafari is the climax of God's revelation' (The Rastafarians, p. 112). They even teach that Jesus predicted the coming of Haile Selassie (p. 106)."

Source:

Rastafarianism. (A very good article)

In re Question 6: "Could YOU stand this kind of life?" Having worked in prisons for years, my answer is a resounding NO. Just the thought of being locked in a cell from 6pm-6am sends shivers through me, aside from all the other problems associated with living in the prison mini-society. Although prisoners appear to be treated better and more fairly than in the US, there are still some officers, those who are frustrated policemen, who go out of their way to try to de-humanise all prisoners, even the ones who are addressing their issues. The biggest problem here is the officers who have obvious alcohol problems themselves, denigrating the prisoners who are addressing their alcohol and drug problems. Because of those few officers, who seem to be evenly dispersed in prisons, a designated program staff member has to remain at the Centre to greet the rostered AA and NA members, ensure that inmates are allowed out to the meetings, and then walk the rostered members out of the Centre. And that's just one example of how some officers attempt to sabotage the inmate's rehabilitation.

Bobbie

Well, I have my 'puter back, and it only cost $60.00 to fix, so I'm a happy camper tonight.

I really wanted to comment a little on both Bonnie's and Barbara's essays, as they both affected me so deeply.

When I received the galley proof of the book, about 6 weeks prior to publication, I'd already read several of the essays (while in progress), but I'd never seen either of these two before.

As I sat alone in my livingroom late one night, reading the entire book in one sitting, it seemed to be pretty much like I'd expected it to be, until I got up to Bonnie's and Barbara's stories. While reading Bonnie's essay, I began weeping, and by the time I finished reading Barbara's story, I'd begun crying so hard that my sobbing woke my husband up out of a deep sleep.

I can't speak for Bonnie, only for myself, but what I related to when I read her words was the very same feeling that I'd described many times before as tapping into my own "vein of pain" that flowed back through every past painful event I'd experienced in my entire life.

For me it came when my final grasp onto the delusion that somehow my first marriage would magically work out loosened, and it became impossible for me to hold on any longer. In retrospect, I now realize it was less about losing a relationship that was of little value anyhow, than it was about me losing the final element of control I had over my entire out-of-control life.

There I was, seven years into recovery, and I began spiraling down even further into depression than I'd ever gone during my active years of drug addiction. "Putting down" that man was far more difficult than putting down drugs, and at that seven year point, my recovery really took off, because that's when I finally began grasping that the disease of addiction was the predescesor to (sp?), not the end result of, my drug use.

I then cried just about every day for two years. I couldn't sleep; I could barely function at all, and nobody could understand it (because after all, I was obviously better off without HIM).

When I read Bonnie's words: "I prayed to God for the strength to endure this tribulation but was haunted by a swirl of fears, demons, and memories . . . "

That entire paragraph (bottom of p.206) felt so familiar to me. Bonnie explained my experience with her words -- the convergence of the lifetime of pain pummeling downward and avalancing on top of me, or so it felt.

When I cried for that two years straight, I also began grieving, for the first time ever, the loss of every little friend I left behind all the times we moved when I was a kid, and I began really feeling all the other pains and sadnesses related to my childhood issues. The regrets I felt over all the years I'd wasted and shame over pushing so many people away for so many years, overwhelmed me for months.

My folks were so worried about me, and they couldn't really understand what I meant when I told them that I would be OK; I just needed to feel the pain until it was over (no matter how long it took), because for the first time ever, I was unwilling to drag it all on through life with me any more.

For me, Bonnie's story really hit hard as a shared experience between us. Through that one single paragraph, I knew Bonnie, and I was sure she knew me too, even though we had never met.

Your posts here have been and still are so moving to me as you are such an understanding person with NO pretence of being superior.

I can relate to Many of the people that have writen (sp) in this book, "Couldn't Keep it myself. I wish to Thank everyone involed in it it as it has made a Very big difference in my life and will also do so to many others I am sure. Thanks, Ginger who will Not leave this discussion until the last post has been posted.

This one provided me with my own "but for the Grace of God" moment. I never really understood, until I read Barbara's story, how easily it could have been me instead of her in prison for a decade (or more).

In so many ways, Barbara's depiction of her relationship with "Mark" mirrored my own first marriage. Reading about it reminded me of how terrified I'd felt in the past, knowing my husband had a gun (its whereabouts unknown to me). I thought about that gun all the time, and I constantly feared the day that it might be pulled out during an arguement. I recall consciously thinking about whether I'd just let him kill me or if I thought I could put up a fight or try to get the gun away from him if it ever did appear. The events leading to Barbara's incarcration could have very easily happened to me instead!

Even though I once lived that way, though, today I often find myself in disbelief that women feel they cannot "get out" of potentially deadly situations. I forget that solutions devised by those of us who are on the outside looking in, are not the result of distorted and irrational perspectives. Jeeze, you'd think as the result of my own experience, I'd rememeber not to spend too much time trying to apply logic to illogical situations, but I do it all the time. I'm sure I'll spend the rest of my life befuddled over my own past lack of decision-making skills!

"Jeeze, you'd think as the result of my own experience, I'd rememeber not to spend too much time trying to apply logic to illogical situations, but I do it all the time. I'm sure I'll spend the rest of my life befuddled over my own past lack of decision-making skills!"

No.

Turn it over, NANCY. Let go. Let God.

Mal

Barbara Parsons Lane. What kind of chance did this obviously very bright woman have? Sexually abused by her grandfather, a mother who is in and out of psychiatric hospitals and finally kills herself, a husband who wants to use her for target practice the way he did the birds around their house; it is no wonder to me that she snapped and killed him. The court apparently takes little notice of all this.

It's a stark picture of prison life she gives. Not only that, her son dies in an accident. The picture of Barbara viewing her son's body while wearing shackles is more than painful. She describes the stealing at the prison, sex, lack of hygiene, ignorance, a very dismal scene.

Barbara says, "Long term incarceration is a strange mix of sadness, sameness, and explosiveness." She is very articulate, and her use of words is part of the reason for the power of this piece. "If life is a pile of puzzle pieces, my most precious ones remain out of reach." So beautifully said, and how very, very sad.

Mal

Barbara's story was pure pain.. It is almost like"The Perils of Pauline" and I am truly not making fun of anyone. You simply cannot believe her life story thus far. Nancy, oh Nancy, Bonnies story also made me cry ( not for two years) but just rereading it started the tears all over again. I am glad that it helped you even more and can understand how you related to it. I related to it, never been an addict, never been in jail, not a minority, etc. etc. Bonnie just reaches out and grabs your throat through her writing.

NANCY....Your posts, the honesty, the depth, had me in tears. Thank you for your honest sharing.

Bobbie

Oh Nancy, I'm glad you got your laptop fixed and joined us again, what you have added to our total experience here, and what a searing set of posts YOU have made, oh gosh, thank you. Thank you.

I was unprepared for Barbara's story, simply can't function, I'm very grateful to you and to all of you who are trying to tackle it, it just blew me away, I don't know where to start and when I got to her son's dying I gasped out loud with such horror that the dog came running in concern.

I think Barbara, to me, is Everywoman. I mean I really identify with her as she speaks. I, like Robin, have not experienced, by the grace of God, anything she has, but the way she reacts? And the things she thinks? That's me there. I totally identify with her, it's almost unbearable to read.

There she is, in jail, how vivid her descriptions, how like me: don't touch me, please. Stay away. It's a scene of horror, she's in a madhouse, it's....it's almost ...and then her marriage, her WANTING it to be good, her trying in the face of "Mark," and his....she kept trying! ....who has not tried in a marriage, but we're not all married to "Mark."

Thank God.

This piece has moved me more than any other, and I thought the others were incredible. It shows me .....hope? Or....how we try? Or does it show futility? How everybody tries? And then what happens and how you keep ON trying? Yes and so then.....what happens even when you try?

THIS is a devastating piece.

Blow after blow after blow.

And over it all, there's humor, "Oh great, my attorney is Young Frankenstein, " on page 227, humor in the midst of such devastation, she's me, that's the quirky way I think, (or I hope I could still think, the irony in such devastating situations) oh gosh this is so hard to read and then the death of her son, (she did get to go to the funeral, how heartbreaking that 1/2 hour was, but Nancy W did not, wasn't she the one who didn't get to go to the funeral of her mother, why was that?)

And near the end,

Women like me don't hit back. We put up with renegade roommates and follow the rules becuase breaking them can mean loss of institutional privileges--school and therapy group attendance, family visits, access to the telephone and our mail. These are the lifelines to our sanity, so we obey. (page 237)

And this one "Seventy five percent of women at York do not take advantage of school or counseling programs' (page 237)>

And then this one, this one broke my heart, " I don't care who you are--I ams uer you have a dark side, especially if you are a man. You cannot convince me otherwise." (page 239). Oh . Is she right, do you think? To me this just about represented the death of the innocent hopeful Barbara, and all of us, is she right?

AND then she asked the children to write about the effect on them and here again I am surprised, these are grown children, I would have thought they would not have been affected so much, especially in the light of their supportive words to her but again I miscalculated the effects and they are very very hard to read.

Note how she ends her essay with their voices, as if she's letting them speak for her. Arthur wrote, "She is not the same wonderful, caring, and giving person she was before her ordeal. She never will be. The 'system' has seen to that." Ah, ah....oh you weep for the death of this wonderful, caring, giving person that I still see?

And you have to say this is all of us.

And you have to ask IS the "System" responsible for the loss of that caring, wonderful and giving person or is something else?

How MANY of these women, when telling a mother about an abuse situation were told to be quiet or to pack their bags! I can't believe that. Oh listen I have to write Barbara, I can't stand this. I need to know where she is now, because what came across to me was that hopeful, kind, giving person, I think she's still there, I want to validate...I don't know what I want, but I want to do something?

We need to hold Barbara over until tomorrow, sorry, there's a LOT more to talk about here if we can bring ourselves TO talk about it.

ginny

Nancy with the Little Happy Face, bless your heart, I hope you realize what a bright light you are, you just dazzle every time you appear, your posts were searing and so true, I think for everybody?

As I sat alone in my livingroom late one night, reading the entire book in one sitting, it seemed to be pretty much like I'd expected it to be, until I got up to Bonnie's and Barbara's stories.

Yes I agree and I think if Wally Lamb had started the book with these stories, nobody would have been able to finish it, I really have to marvel at the way he arranged them.

In retrospect, I now realize it was less about losing a relationship that was of little value anyhow, than it was about me losing the final element of control I had over my entire out-of-control life. I think we all think this way tho, we're all pilgrims moving through life, it appears Eve Ensler was right, we make choices and some of them, through no fault of our own are bad. And turn bad and then we "want to make it right," in our hopefulness and we can't.

We can't.

That's hard to deal with.

I then cried just about every day for two years. I couldn't sleep; I could barely function at all, and nobody could understand it (because after all, I was obviously better off without HIM).

I am so sorry and I did pretty much the same thing for a summer and eveyrbody thought I was crazy, as my own situation was nothing like this and not important to anybody but me, it's when the auxiliary stuff comes in, those little demons that the major grief seems to let out of the bag, it's when THEY start waking you up at night, like your lost childhood friends, you really can't do anything BUT... you have to experience it fully (you really have no choice) in order to get over it. One does have to sleep at night, I got tired of having to wake up at 2 am torturing myself about stuff.

I think we all do it, if we're honest? It's just that some of us were luckier than others, that seems to be part of it, nothing to be proud of, the others will be stronger because they were challenged and coped.

Thank you, Ginger, who will Not leave this discussion until the last post has been posted, that's where I am also, to the end. We can be faithful in this since it appears so many have been let down by others in the past.

I hadn't expected to be moved, actually, by these essays the way I have.

I forget that solutions devised by those of us who are on the outside looking in, are not the result of distorted and irrational perspectives. Here again so true, when Barbara had made plans for the divorce papers to be served, and had contacted the Sheriff, and "Mark" came home, I kept screaming at the book GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!!!!!

But she didn't.

And at the time she would not have listened to me, either.

I'm sure I'll spend the rest of my life befuddled over my own past lack of decision-making skills!

We've all made horrendous decisions and we wonder, even now, what we were thinking of! But I'm anxious, here in edit to affirm the goodness always there, if somewhat impaired? I think we make, each of us, the best decisions we can, for the stage of life we are in, based on our own experiences so far, or our own condition, and maybe the ones we need to make, to learn. to end up who we are? When I look back on some of mine I am appalled, how could I have thought that way? From what I have seen of you, Nancy, your decision making skills exceed mine, in spades, we all make, and have made, bad decisions, but you are truly one of the most impressive people I have met, your light shines, just look how you have come in here, how conscientious you are, how dedicated you are, and what you are saying. You dazzle, Nancy, I don't think there is anything whatsoever wrong with your decision making skills: you've shown that in what you've done, who YOU are, the subsequent strength to do with your life.

Reminds me of that old parable of the sower and the seeds? Some of our initial seeds (or decisions) fall on stony ground, some are devoured by rapacious beings, some of that is hardly our own faults, and even when it was our own fault, who of us can say we didn't throw some of our own seeds deliberately out the window, for one reason or another? Foolishly. I know I did. I know I deliberately threw seeds in the wrong places for the wrong reasons. Look what you've managed, tho, to do: to succeed even IN the face of the opposition you encountered. Yours is an amazing story of triumph, and I wonder if you could have done all these successful endings if you had not walked thru that initial fire, unpleasant and undesirable as it was, we'll never know, but you've emerged victorious, and you had it in you all the time: something to really be proud of. I say well done!

ginny

I was told my a wise person once that when you do not need someone it is the right time to find a partner. I think she was right. Neediness clouds judgement. I found the loneliness of my first two years as a widow of 49 almost unbearable but the words of that wise woman kept going through my mind. I have sat back and watched those who marry in haste after being widowed and seen some real disasters. I think when you have a terrible childhood or even a terrible first marriage you are very needy and have a very clouded judgement system. I think this is where some real tragedies begin. In a lot of the stories in the book I think neediness clouded the judgement of many of the women so that they made wrong choices either in partners or in the choice of their associations.

Carolyn

Kiwi Lady, I just have to say that your post #59 is so well-said and right on the mark! When my first marriage ended, I was in such pain, I was ready to do almost anything to make it stop. I thought my life was over, and it didn't make any difference what I did anyway. One of my friends, watching the decisions I was making, told me that she thought I was suicidal without knowing it. But I didn't listen. It took two years, just as you said, before I was able to start thinking clearly and making rational choices. Thank you, Carolyn, for saying it so well.

"Long term incarceration is a strange mix of sadness, sameness, and explosiveness." Sometimes life outside of prison can fit this description, too.

Does anyone here watch Animal Planet? They have a series on Monday night called Cell Dogs. It's about the dog training program in the prisons. Next Monday night the Indianna women's prison is featured. It looks to be quite interesting. The one that was on last night featured the Florence Prison in Arizona. I got the sense that it was hard to tell who was being helped more, the hadicapped for whom these dogs were being trained, the dogs (who were rescued from shelters) or the prisoners themselves. It seemed to be a win, win situation for everyone involved. The prisoners certainly came out of it with a better self-esteem. I remember one guy in particular who during the class-room sessions before they got their dogs was worried about the dog liking him. This was a high security facility and most of the guys were in for murder or manslaughter. Can you imagine a hardened crimminal (at least what we think of as a hardened crimminal) worrying about whether a dog would like him or not? Of course when he got his dog it loved him. The one next week the women will be training the dogs for working with handicapped children. Should be interesting.

Jerilyn

Ginny, You asked if I would explain the reasoning behind this statement: "I don't think she would have been going against her faith even if she had complied from the start. Whether the pants are put on by someone else, or you put them on in a controlled, coercive environment where you are forced to do so, makes little difference."

It's simply that courts of appeal have generally held that if someone acts while under the influence of an authority figure who holds the power to do them serious physical or psychological damage, this constitutes coercion and mitigates or removes guilt. Of course, I realize that matters of faith are not judged exactly like legal issues, but if Bonnie was able to comply with someone in authority putting on the pants, then the same reasoning could have applied to the warden's initial demand since it was accompanied by threats of serious physical punishment for noncompliance.

I apologize for giving incorrect information about the inmates' numbers; they are not in the book next to their photos as I thought. It's easy to obtain their numbers by using the internet. Connect with CT DOC (Department of Correction) and type in the name of the woman you wish to contact. Her number (and the crime she's charged with) will be available. Someone asked why I spoke of God as "she." Simple really. For as long as I can remember, I've searched for God (and God has searched for me!) and the "models" that have been presented to me by most organized religions have been of "male" gods. Now, of course, I don't believe that God is male or female as we are, but, nonetheless, that's often how God is represented. The more I've searched my own heart and prayerfully asked for divine guidance, the more "female" my God has become. I've witnessed the world's agony under male rule and, while I'm not sure females would do better, it's hard for me to believe in a masculine deity. In my personal life, my "Father" was cruel not kind, and culturally, women have suffered under male rule (and continue to suffer). The stories from the women at the prison describe horribly abusive men (of course, most men are not abusive, but...) Jesus, the historical figure, seems more female in disposition than most "powerful" males. Jesus used kindness to evoke change and believed violence was wrong -- under any circumstances. Religion often twists Jesus' teachings, but I attempt to follow HIS model, which I see as gentle, inclusive, and forgiving. Mostly, I've simply come to know a higher being who defies definition -- my use of the pronoun "she" is mostly to turn the tables to make people think. My God is not very much like us human beings -- male or female. The God of my small understanding is always loving, kind, and forgiving --who among us can claim those qualities as constants. Love to talk more on this, but duty calls. Blessings.

been an unusual and different experience.

Have they changed my attitude these brave women? Not really, just strengthened my belief that any thing can happen to anyone, and on any given day we may react differently.

Does one person stand out for me, Robyn Cullen does. I think she most of all found herself and kept herself to herself.I find that an admirable trait.

It occurs to me that one essentially brings a different person to writing, maybe that person is the reality, maybe not. It is said that confession is good for the soul, I am wondering after being involved here, just whose soul it is good for.

Right now, it would seem a good idea to try and help women prisoners in someway, although so far have not come up with anyway I personally could do that.

Seems somehow patronising to say thanks to the women who wrote of themselves, but would certainly like to do that sincerely.Also, I should like to apologise for becoming self centered in this discussion, which reminded me of a hazy history, which will now be stored where it belongs, in the past.

Anneo

DALE!! Thank you for this, just running in, in the midst of all these super posts going all the way back to Malryn's on Barbara's, that was beautiful, Malryn, but to say THANK YOU DALE for that information on the Prisoner numbers, here's the link: Connecticut Department of Corrections. You all may want to look at that page and (AND Denjer, at the show next Monday more on everything everybody said later on, I hope I did not embarrass Nancy, but I meant it) and here's Barbara's number: 251222

Inmate Name: LANE,BARBARA

And here's the site Barbara's site Jeepers how does this protect privacy, I could be some nut case wanting to write, I hope somebody reads these letters first? Hopefully? Jeepers!

more tomorrow, you can type in anybody's name?

I'm hallf afraid to type in my own.

ginny

To me God is a Sprit and I belive it to be so. It has been said that God will be All things to All People and I believe that also as to Race, Nationalities etc. I could go on and on but you get the drift and I Hope you Understand as there would be so many less Wars if we All Understood.

Bonnie Had a God Given Right to stand up for what she believed in. The people who dishonerd her belief Shall be Judged Not her is my thoughts on the subject. But I know to leave it up to God as I am Not the Judge, God is, Thank God.

As to creed, It has been said that we will only be judged for what we know.

Thank you Ginger for those beautiful and heartfelt thoughts.

Thank you Malryn for that article on Rastafarianism. It IS interesting!

And thank you, Horselover, for that explanation. That's a very interesting point you make on the courts versus religion, I think we might debate that one, all day, many thanks!

Attorney General Blumenthal on the Wally Lamb book proceeds.

Bobbiecee, and Anneo, just watched on TV your spectacular Australian New Year fireworks in Sydney, Happy New Year to you and to Everybody here. Let's make 2004 the year in which we DID something to help others, from our own Books area. I know we can, I feel that strongly and I’m ready.

Bobbie, "And that's just one example of how some officers attempt to sabotage the inmate's rehabilitation. " That's not good, I'm glad somebody is there to counteract that.

Malryn, thank you for this tie in sentence which I missed completely (Both Barbara and now Nancy have blown me away, I should have resisted posting till I could get hold of self!)

She is very articulate, and her use of words is part of the reason for the power of this piece. "If life is a pile of puzzle pieces, my most precious ones remain out of reach." So beautifully said, and how very, very sad

Wonderful point, which I missed, thank you.

Stephanie, "Barbara's story was pure pain," thank you for that and for your reaction to Bonnie's piece, isn't it strange how some of the pieces move us to tears and others don't? I wonder why that is?

Carolyn, this was beautifully said, I agree with Horselover. "In a lot of the stories in the book I think neediness clouded the judgment of many of the women so that they made wrong choices either in partners or in the choice of their associations. " I agree, especially about where friends have a totally different perspective while the person is caught up emotionally.

But the point I was earnestly trying somewhat inarticulately to make (and having spent a tossed night over my own old past decisions) I was trying to say tho that no matter how stupid or foolish our past decisions might have been, we, that is the goodness of the person, that hopeful person is always there? I'm not sure even now I'm saying it well. The skills are there, PERSON is there, for whatever reason (you don't think EVERYBODY is needy in one way or another?) that the judgment might be temporarily clouded. Otherwise the person would not make it out.

I'm not sure that makes any sense!!! I'm trying to affirm the goodness always within, just, I guess, as Barbara now is affirming the "beast " within?

If I had not read Barbara and Nancy so recently I believe I'd be more lucid. ahhaahaha

Horselover, "It took two years, just as you said, before I was able to start thinking clearly and making rational choices. Thank you, Carolyn, for saying it so well." I agree, it's scary when we don't know we ARE making bad decisions, I just read the NY Times article on Helibrun which affirms she was depressed all along, well I guess it's easy to stand from the outside and judge, out of one's own guilt at not having been able to help.

Denjer, THANK you for that mention of the canine training program on MONDAYS!! "Anyone here watch Animal Planet? They have a series on Monday night called Cell Dogs. It's about the dog training program in the prisons."

Let's all tune in on Monday and see it in action! And read the article in the heading featuring our own Barbara!!

Dale, you said, "Mostly, I've simply come to know a higher being who defies definition -- my use of the pronoun 'she' is mostly to turn the tables to make people think." Well you certainly did that! So you reject the Patristic Father Son and Holy Ghost, idea, how fascinating. Did you know that in the religions of India there are often gods who are both sexes in one? In fact they are revealed as two halves and in two different colors, I like that.

But I do understand what you mean!

"Mostly, I've simply come to know a higher being who defies definition -- my use of the pronoun "she" is mostly to turn the tables to make people think. My God is not very much like us human beings -- male or female. The God of my small understanding is always loving, kind, and forgiving --who among us can claim those qualities as constants. " Wonderful! That's a whole discussion itself, I think the Women in Literature group would love to get their hands on it as well as the Religious books folks, but let me ask you, did you come to this belief before you began your prison teaching or is it part of the result?

Having watched the PBS show and Eve Ensler and her reactions to the prisoners who, for instance, had not completed their work on their essay during the week… (she asked Keila, did you work on your essay during the week and Kelia said, sort of surprised and defensively , " no." And then Eve Ensler said, well did you WANT to work on it? And here of course the old teacher in me jumped up and said WHAT WHAT? (I said this in the PBS discussion) did she WANT to work on it? Huh? Are you encouraging excuses, but of course she was not, she was trying to get her to see why she DID not want ow work on it, and achieve her own goal, but that led me to believe it's a good thing I don't teach in prison because I would never have thought to go that route. So I guess I want to know, what do YOU do if the student comes in with nothing more done or finished? Do you try to hold up a standard?

Why are so few of the prisoners at York taking part in this school? How do prisoners get college credit while in prison? What is your primary aim in teaching English to the students?

I want to express my admiration to you, Dale, for this work. It sounds, to me, that it is more difficult than teaching in a regular class, despite the fact that the students have chosen to be there, it sounds like it takes a very special person, blessings on YOU! It must be heartbreaking at times.

Anneo (I'm glad to see you got your "lea" back hahahaha) "It occurs to me that one essentially brings a different person to writing, maybe that person is the reality, maybe not. It is said that confession is good for the soul, I am wondering after being involved here, just whose soul it is good for." OH good point, just think, last November we were in a totally different place as regards women in prison and prisoners, I know I was, I knew nothing, absolutely nothing.

"Right now, it would seem a good idea to try and help women prisoners in someway, although so far have not come up with anyway I personally could do that." Oh yes it's a good idea and where there's a will there's always a way. We do have the will here, we've had more than 10 people express the true desire to help in some way, that's more than enough to get up a core group and DO something and that's exactly my own goal for the new year, Wally Lamb has given us an address to write, now Dale has given us the prisoner's inmate numbers, we can start there, I'll be writing all of you soon (there are 55 people in this discussion, from all over the world, and others in the PBS) and we'll lay out what we can try to do on our end, and there's' more. I know there is more, this is absolutely great!!! A GREAT thing right here under our own noses.

Today we'll ring out the old year with Barbara Lane and take up Michelle on New Year's Day for two days then Diane then Dale. And THEN we'll…well let's not think of that. Let's watch Animal Planet on Monday and read the Blumenthal Link and start the New Year right!

What else do you have to say about Barbara's moving essay?

Were you surprised at her children's reaction? What did you think of her ending her own piece with their words?

What does her musing about the "beast within" seem to mean?

ginny

this jigsaw thing. If one is, as I am, a jigsaw fanatic, the thought of having pieces missing is almost beyond dealing with.I would love for Barbara to know, that from where I stand she is so much the whole puzzle, laid out and beautiful.

I find this story of Barbara's almost too painful to read though,because of its openness.It is New Year here already, please God you are right Ginny, and that we may indeed help, in some wya.

re the name,Yes lost the whole thing there for a bit, not sure why, but it is all back now.

Anneo

"The beast within"

I have been thinking a lot about Barbara's situation and I believe it was the fight and flight instinct that kicked in - she could not flee so she fought. Unfortunately the fight ended in a death which resulted in Barbara's incarceration. It was a case of terror and instinct.

Carolyn

#30, I believe I addressed this one on one of my "discussion" days.

#31, Addressing underlying issues . . . Yeah, not only do I believe that many answers live inside (or even underneath) those underlying issues, but I also think it's important to go back and "re-visit" those same issues from time to time. Our psyche's are so complex that as we grow and change, our perceptions grow and change too. I'm so glad to be anchored into a recovery program that (when done as is suggested) has me looking over and over again at various situations from my past.

I can tell you from experience that many of my "issues" that I once aproached with an attitude of anger and resentment (toward individuals who really did hurt me) are now the very same issues I'm approaching with an attitude of forgiveness and even remorse on my own behalf.

Just this past year I finally became able to, on several occasions, apologize for my own regretful actions that stemmed from inappropriate reactions to the hurtful and abusive behaviors of others. In other words, just because somebody treats me badly, I do not gain the inherent right to turn around and act like an abusive jerk in response, so if that's what I did, then I've been an abusive jerk, and the sentence should end there; it should not continue with a conjunction like "but" or "however." Most always, the clause that follows the conjunction is a rationalization or a justification that creates a barrier to myself from really changing.

Prior to the book publishing, I figured my ex-husband should hear about it from me. My current husband and I took him (the "Bobby" of my essay) out for dinner one night last January, and I told him about what I wrote. I also brought a list of what I was ready to claim responsibility and apologize for, and after we ate dinner and I explained about the book, I read the list off to him. It took some years for me to be able to do this without including any kind of justification for my actions, and it was really, really hard to follow through with.

I was pretty sure he would interpret what I was telling him as claiming full responsibility for most of our problems, which is exactly how he reacted. I just clenched my teeth and stuck with the script, because I wanted to and needed to be free.

When I was finished, I told him that I wanted to forgive him for anything he ever said or did that hurt me, and I told him if I ended up earning any money from the publication, I had a ratio figured out that I thought was fair to pay him (since I had shared part of his story too).

Up until I decided to move forward with writing my essay for the book, I'd tried hard to "let go" of all that hard and hurtful stuff from my past in this relationship (and Wally saying I felt ambivilant about writing it out, and then going public with it, is an understatement). I'd never really succeeded, though, in taking responsibility for my own actions in the relationship. Although I'd managed to move on, thinking back upon the years of my life I'd spent with him still caused me to feel so angry, resentful, fearful, anxiety-ridden, etc.

After having that meeting with my ex, I felt so relieved -- like something in my soul that died a long time ago became revived, and it had nothing to do with him; it had to do with me reclaiming a piece of myself that I had given up to him many years ago. And thusfar (almost a year later) I still feel that same sense of peaceful resolution.

This is only one example of dozens I could give of how this process works. Today I'm not really afraid to look back at anything, and I'm learning that the more I'm able to practice forgiveness, the more my own sense of shame and regret lessens. Funny how that works, isn't it?

#32-#36, I believe I've already discussed all of these in other posts.

Thank you, NANCY. You've said something very important here.

The funny thing about a recovery program such as the one NANCY and many others, including myself, are in is that dramatic changes can come to the people who are recovering. At the same time, it is possible that no change at all is occurring in others.

NANCY, you took a brave step in making amends to "Bobby", and I feel sure I know his reaction because the same thing happened to me when I tried to make amends to someone with whom I had once been very close. Like "Bobby" this person acted as if I was taking full responsibility for everything negative that had ever happened between him and me. He had not changed, nor has he changed since I forgave him and myself, or will he ever change.

The sort of relief because of forgiveness you have felt is what came to me. The worm of denial of any responsibility on his part must eat at him somehow in negative ways he probably would never admit to himself or anyone else. I'd hate to be carrying that around the rest of my life, and I'm sure you would, too.

The same thing has happened in lesser ways with other people to whom I made amends and forgave. They simply are unable to understand the program of forgiveness of others and ourselves which gives us strength.

It takes years of work sometimes to get to the point where you are, NANCY, and I truly admire what you have done and what you are doing today. As years have gone by, I have found that when old issues are faced and confronted, and amends are made and forgiveness comes, those issues no longer are an important part of life. They happened in the past, and the past is gone forever. True acceptance of this makes every New Year a hopeful and happy one.

Mal

#37, In my original draft, the first page held the entire crazy, disjointed poem that I wrote about in my essay. Wally thought the poem gave away too much at the beginning, but the poem in its entirety was still going to be included in addition to the essay(along with photo graphics I'd added to the poem).

Much of the imagery in my essay was drawn from that one crazy and disturbing piece of poetry that I wrote the night all my repressed memories began re-presenting, as I watched the film in my college class.

Eventually, the poem/graphic collage was left out of the book, I think partially because we would have had to get permission from a company that I "borrowed" some artwork from (the flying monkeys) and then superimposed a childhood photo of myself into, along with a singed edged copy of the poem. I have several other creative/healing projects that I've saved over the years, too; for as far back as I can remember, I've used artistic expression, along with writing, to help me in my healing process.

I am beyond the brainstorming stage of a potential new project (book) that I may take a stab at co-authoring with a psychologist friend of mine (who specializes in art therapy). That's about all I wish to say about it for now, but in some form, I do plan on writing more.

Seeing how my essay started out and then evolved, in subsequent drafts, was such an amazing experience for me, and it really woke up my "writer within." I hadn't written anything (other than assigned college papers) for 7 or 8 years prior to when Wally asked me if I'd be interested in doing this. Now I'm a writing fool again, but I wonder if I ever would have really written again without the prompt from Wally (???); I really doubt it!

#38, Yes, the jounal entries are for real. I juxtiposed the order some of them really appeared, and I cleaned up sentence fragments, tense, subject/verb agreements, etc., but for the most part, they are what they've always been. You should see the original copy of the angry written rant from my last night in prison -- it's pretty intense in its original form, bold and scribbled!

#39-#43, I think most of Wally's editorial comments had to do with arrangement. The real sequence of events occurred a bit "out of order" for me (like for instance most people don't detox prior to going to jail and treatment). Also, jumping back between past and present and the two different "voices," was pretty difficult. I did pretty well with it, but a couple of times Wally told me he was feeling a little lost in the sequence.

Wally mentioned that we had spent most of our adult lives estranged (my doing completely; it had to do with that shame and regret thing). I never went back to my hometown or communicated with my hometown family from when I was in my early 20's until I was over 40 years old. The family reunion I went to (that I wrote about in my essay) was when I was 4 years into my recovery, back in 1993, but I was still pretty sick and crazy. After that reunion, I never went back to Connecticut again until this past year.

As Wally said, this joint writing project ended up providing us with a blessed reconnection. But when I sent in my first draft, he was as oblivious to the facts of my story as anyone else, so he was learning about most of it as we went (which he indicated more than a few times was really tough for him).

Wally helped me greatly in clarifying and organizing, and although most of what I wrote was there all along (content-wise) Wally would send back questions concerning what I wrote; in other words, he didn't so much tell me how to re-write, as much as he provided me with the opportunity to re-write in a manner that made things clearer to him and ultimately other readers.

There were only a few things that we went back and forth about more than once. One was when he thought I needed to go into more detail concerning the 18 years I spend in active drug addiction. I had condensed it into one paragraph on purpose, in order to really emphasize how little I believe my own disease of addiction has to do with my drug use. It took some bargaining on my behalf to convince him to leave it short and sweet!

There were a few places where words were softened and a couple of things I still wish could have been included but were ultimately deleted, due to concerns about liability. Also, in one edit some words that I'd softened on purpose (like "batterings" instead of "beatings") came back in the more hardened form. I didn't like the image that I thought the word "beating" conjured up, because although I'd certainly endured my share of bruises and other injuries, I really wanted to emphasize more the slow, more subliminal, emotional control my ex gained over me. In honesty, too, I had some concerns about my safety post-publication, since this guy still knows where I live and work (although in an interesting aside, I feel less afraid of him now than I did back when I was writing about it all -- uh, maybe something to do with reclaiming my power, huh?).

IN addition to Wally, the publishers attorneys were also included in the editing process. They were very careful to go over everything with the proverbial "fine tooth comb." For instance I needed to assure supporting documentation existing, concerning the abuse I wrote about (reports on file w/police, and at The Center for Women and Families). I can assure you all, that what you've read about in this book only touches on the severity of various situations. If some of the the events that led up to actual crimes could be divulged, well, let's just say take what you know and then multiply it all at least 10 times, and you might be in the ballpark of what was endured prior to the day when enough became enough! It's really a miracle that I never reached that point myself before I finally got out (or maybe I did and I just got lucky because he was having an off day in reacting -- you just never know).

Whew, just thinking about how hard this was to do gets my head reeling; I think that's about it for now. I'll try to get to the rest over the next few days. We'll be traveling back home tomorrow, so it'll probbably be over the weekend before I can finish up.

By the way, best wishes for a blessed 2004 to all of you!

You have jogged my memory so here goes, The rappist came to my Mothers house and ask for me so I came and he ask for forgiveness knowing that I had found my Higher power. I told him that he was forgiven and it was the last time I saw him as he died just a bit later and you know what I was glad that I had forgiven him as if I had Not I would have had to live with it. I really have enjoyed every post you have posted, Thanks for being here.

For Your Happy New Year click here: http://www.dobhran.com/greetings/GRnewyear2.htm

#44, What made me decide to include the journal entries into my story? I guess there was never any question whether to include some of the journal entries or not; after all, they were already written from a first person perspective of the incarcerated woman I once was. I'd told Wally some years back about keeping that particular journal too, so right from the "get go" I think he assumed they'd be included as well. What ended up surprising me, however, was how little of the essay was ended up comprised of the journal entries. Originally, I assumed the bulk of the piece was already written, but boy oh boy, was I wrong about that!

#45, Concerning religious education -- I grew up Catholic and attended several parochial schools, including all 4 years of high school. Despite having some structure and the definate opportunity to form a spiritual relationship with God, for whatever reason, all I "heard" was that I was bad and that God was punishing me. I'm quite sure that's not all I was taught about God, but it certainly was all I absorbed, which is one of the greatest indicators to me of just how early on my "diseased perception" really began.

#46, What was the biggest thing Wally and I disagreed on, concerning my essay? We didn't really "disagree" about anything, and although I did take into account all his input and suggestions, I rather stubbornly held on to everything that felt really important to me and he respectfully agreed with just about all of it. I definately feel like what I wrote is my own story, and after bartering back and forth with Wally (in a really nit-picky manner) sometimes about a single word or two, I'm sure so does Wally!

#47, I worked in prison as a teacher's aid in a GED prep classroom, which felt pretty amazing to me at the time. I barely graduated from high school, finishing seriously close to the bottom of my class. Then I flunked out of college in 1773, after only 3 semesters. I understood my entire adult life (prior to going to prison) that I was not very smart. Then after arriving in prison, I had to take a battery of tests (Reading, English, Math, etc.). When I was told that I'd scored at a post high school level AND that my composite score put me into a top 1 percentile, I just couldn't believe it. And I tried not to dwell on the fact that according to assessment, I was apparantly smarter than most of the other incarcrated women who'd taken the test. In a way I felt kind of proud of myself, but then again I felt even more humiliated and dumbfounded over how I could have possibly ended up in my situation.

#48, I believe many individuals who worked at the prison where I was incarcerated rather enjoyed putting inmates down and pushing them around, for no good reason.

#49, I'm at a loss concerning what the average person can do to help improve the quality of life in prisons. I am personally involved in advocating for prison education to remain a priority in fiscal budgets in Indiana and Kentucky, the states in which I live and work, although it mostly feels like a losing battle. I also try to reach out to recently released individuals, by involving myself in community service at homeless shelters, halfway houses and treatment facilities.

#50, Ginger, I already told you I have no idea what "the hole" or the equivilant to it is like (sorry).

Whew, that's the end of the questions asked of me! I will post a few more closing thoughts soon.

Peace and best, NAB :0)

I think education and also remedial reading programs should be a no. one priority in prisons. I think also Computer studies should be included in the classes. If inmates were tested I bet a fair few would have learning disabilities. There are many forms of learning disabilities and you cannot broad base them under the one banner of dyslexia. Thank goodness we are learning about more of them all the time. SPELD here is a wonderful diagnostic organisation. Its expensive however. I really believe if inmates could get qualifications while they were in prison they would have a much better chance of explaining themselves to a prospective employer when they are released and also have a much better chance of actually gaining employment if they had a skill base.

Carolyn

I found that the hole is Now called Lock up, Not a fun place for sure. Thanks for remembering my question.

Motherhood was an essay that I had little patience with. Phew.. I hated to say that, but I just reread it and I still feel like reaching out and shaking MoShay...It felt real, so I would assume that this is a true story, but a little pushed to the fantasy side. I felt for her Mother. Is this really why so many young girls get pregnant.. To feel special.. The baby is a real person, not an object that you will receive love and attention from. Sorry.. I am not being objective.. But my best friend years and years ago in high school was like this girl. She was all of 15 and the respective parents insisted they marry. They did not even last until the baby was born. Then she was sent away from the birth to complete high school, since way back then in our teeny farm school, no mothers allowed. Her Mother raised the baby until she was about 5. Then my friend remarried and the little girl who had never called her Mother, discovered her sister was her Mother and they moved away and took her with them. A tragedy for three families in the end.

Happy New Year!!

Nancy! What a tremendous effort you have made! I had no idea we had asked you all those questions~!!! THANK YOU so much for all your time on your HOLIDAY!!! We have now such a rich panoply of information, we need to study all this information in depth, preserve it carefully, forever, and use it wisely.

How can we ever thank you!

Thank you Pat Westerdale for, on this holiday, putting up a new heading for us here!

Thank you Malryn, Ginger, and Carolyn for those points and perspectives.

I just this morning read Malryn's Attorney General Blumenthal's piece, it's quite an eye opener. None of the prisoners had asked to see him, (according to an interview he gave in February, don't you know that has changed!!)

He's only doing what the State demands, something is strange here. He likes the writing, thinks it's fabulous, etc., (says it's "a personal achievement of profound significance") he "admires and respects their ability," but none of that has nothing to do with money and if the State requests him to do something like ask for the money returned, he must do it.

Mike Lawlor, the Chair of the Judiciary Committee is interested in reform. He's the one whose email and whose regular mailing address Wally Lamb gave us and the legislation is coming up in February, so we have to hurry! In the next two weeks we need to decipher that pending legislation so we can write him and make sense, no matter where you live, if he's in favor of it in the first place, your frank reactions from all over the country and the world will strike him, bound to!

Here's another bit from the article:

"As the book began to make it to the big time—Today Show, New York Times, USA Today, Blumenthal put his nifty lawsuit together…"

The article is quite angry and against Attorney General Blumenthal. He says he's only doing what he was asked to do, recover the money for the State... (who in the State asked him?) to pursue the money "owed," then how can Bonnie Foreshaw owe $913,777, and Brenda Medina owe $606,505 and Barbara Lane owe $143,505 and Tabbi $109, 271 and Robin $107, 556, how did they come by those figures, why are they so different and why are some so much higher? I don't understand this?

Thank you Steph, for continuing today with our schedule, I want to say I had almost exactly the opposite reaction! Hahahaha Let's see what everybody else thinks about Mo'Shay who is presented to us (a first) in the third person and Wally Lamb explains why in the introduction, and see what questions you all have and conclusions you have drawn. I want to reread what Nancy has said here and in the POV (go look) and be sure we don't miss a word of her wonderful remarks, as well, so we have PLENTY to think about this fine New Year's Day!

ginny

I really enjoyed reading your answers to all our questions, NANCY. What a lot of time and effort it must have cost you. Thank you!

How did I miss the change to the new Volume III discussion? I've been wondering why there was nothing for me to read each day I checked my subscriptions.

I haven't read Mo'Shay's essay, "Motherhood", but I can believe that she was motivated by feeling special. I've taught a number of young girls who had sex with unsuitable persons in order to have a baby. Their mothers did it, they didn't feel loved, and think a baby will make up for it. Is this what she is saying? I don't have the book, but received a gift certificate from Amazon.com and if my library doesn't come through soon on ILL, I will buy it from them.

However, Stephanie, I can understand your abhorrence of such a shallow reason to have a baby. What kind of life will the child have? Not very pleasant, I can assure you. Sue

This story has less punch and power than it would have if Michelle Jessamy had written it in the first person. I understand why she had to distance herself almost out of it because of her feelings about the attempted rape when she was eleven years old. She also has omitted the part of her life in which her crime took place and what led to a sentence of manslaughter. Perhaps the story would seem more finished if she had said something about that which might be related to her childhood.

Like most children and young people and sometimes adults, Mo'Shay could not recognize what her mother did for her as love. All she saw was "Do this, don't do that" when she needed outward displays of affection. Maybe she needed this as much as she did because she was carrying a huge secret, a very large burden for a child. I believe this "dirty" secret made Mo'Shay feel insecure and doubt herself. She needed her mother to hug her and tell her she hadn't done anything wrong when Fred attacked her, and that everything was all right. Mrs. Shambly was obviously so busy and tired most of the time that she couldn't sense what had to be troubling Mo'Shay.

I can't judge Mo'Shay for wanting to have the baby and keep it. Her mother's turnaround and decision to allow Mo'Shay to stay with her was quite remarkable, I think.

Who surprised me in this piece? Reese. Though still not much more than a boy, he showed great loyalty to Mo'Shay and the baby she was carrying.

Mal

Thank you Stephanie for those thoughts, the issue of "children having children" is certainly a topic today, I just heard some kind of modern song yesterday about this very subject from the POV of the father, and how he (they had gotten married) had changed as the child matured, but at first it was sort of frightening, I think it's called There Goes My Life, and the changes in meaning of that title as the little girl matures.

Have you all heard it?

Thank you, Sue, and again, in this one we don't know who ended up raising the baby, we can see her mother, through tears, of love (I guess that's the REAL Motherlove) was willing to take on one more mouth to feed and raise.

I have to say perhaps because of the writing, as Marlyn says, it was very powerful to me, and quite lyric, but to me it's kind of a coming of age piece in which the mother is resented for DOING the right thing, the poor thing worked all day in a nursing home and returned worn out and expecting the kids to help, kind of reminds me of that movie with Christina Applegate in it? But this seems to be a theme of children whose mothers work long hours TO provide for them, and it wasn't until Mo'Shay became a mother herself that she understood.

I felt sorry for the mother.

She did try.

I thought, also, it was a beautiful love story and completely kept forgetting the AGE of the children, and wondered why they could not get "married," 14 year olds, honestly. But in some areas of the country 14 year olds would have married.

I am not thinking she had the baby to have somebody to love she was just having a sweet gentle love affair and did not consider birth control, the baby was a surprise and that does happen.

So I guess I want to ask her who is raising the baby now.

I wonder, I never had girls? I only have boys. Is this common in a home where the mother works full time that the girls feel a bit of resentment rather than trying to help out?

I agree with Malryn that Mrs. Shambly was busy (makes you wonder how she treated the residents she came in contact with?) but I have a feeling that she was just dead tired at the end of the day and probably overwhelmed and depressed and her attitude here may be exaggerated thru teen age eyes, and doing the best she could and thought her daughters would see that.

I'm wondering where Rees is now? And how much contact he has with the baby.

ginny

When I first read the above stated article, and another one like it (in the Hartford Courant newspaper, rather than in Mr. Thibault's column which is more opinion-oriented), I couldn't believe some of the "facts" that the attorney general presented, like the corrections dept. finding out about the book deal through searching the inmates' mail and only finding out about the book being published through finding the contracts when they arrived.

Some facts of the matter went more as follows:

All contributors to the book received letters (a cc. came to me, as well) MONTHS prior to any contracts being issued, regarding potential problems over publishing. The letter I speak of came from HarperCollins and was a copy of a correspondence between the the Dept of Corrections, the publisher, and all of us. That CT's Dept. of Corrections and the state's Atty. General did not know about the book ahead of contract-signing-time is simply not true. Both Wally and HarperCollins attempted to include all concerned parties right from the beginning.

Also, as I recall, at the time these articles were written, and when Blumenthal made the statement about not yet being contacted for a meeting, the women had indeed asked him over and over again to meet so they could discuss the liens. It was HE who had not yet agreed to such a meeting at the time Mr. Thibault wrote his article. Blumenthal did eventually meet with the women, but it wasn't until early April, several months afterwards.

And concerning the variety of figures for the sum totals of bills for repayment, well it all depends on how long the woman was (or is scheduled to be) incarcerated. The total is the number of days times $117.00 per day. Hmmmm, I find it highly ironic that $117.00 a day is the exact same dollar amount a one bedroom efficiency suite in Naples Florida cost for us to stay in just this past week, and IT included a beach, a breakfast buffet every morning, a "happy hour" appetizer buffet each evening, oh -- and the heated pool, hot tub and state-of-the-art gym were great too!

That's all I've got for now; I'm off to work now (back from vacation less than 12 hours and back to work already, ye-haw!).

NAB :0)

Alabama has one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy and infant mortality in the U.S. Here in our poverty stricken county, more than 75% of all children are born to teenage mothers, not married. Many are as young as 12 or 13. Their own mothers were also teenagers when they were born. If the grandmother is working, she often has a live-in boy friend who impregnates the daughters. These young girls do not have parenting skills or parents who spend much time with them. Many of the fathers (and mothers) end up in prison due to domestic violence or drugs. This is a sad situation and can only be eliminated through education--starting at the elementary level and continuing through out public school years and on into prisons if it is necessary. In the 15 years that I taught in the public school system, I taught a number of parents and then their children. I was blessed, though, with some children from stable homes who managed to make it out of the system. These were often children who had parents and at least a grandmother who raised them in the church. I am proud to say that some of my former students who overcame their poverty stricken backgrounds are now returning to our school system to help others. On the other hand, every week our local paper lists the names of those arrested and many of them are former students, now with children who are seeing this as an example of parenting. Sue

I was raped at age 9 1/2 years of age by my mothers uncle. I thought my mother did not love me very much. I became pregnant at age 14 by the first boy I dated. With my mothers permission, this boy(19) and I married so I could have my baby to love and keep safe. We stayed married for 24 years had 3 children and they were in college, army, and high-school when we separated. I never went to prison. I never committed a crime. I am an alcoholic who does not drink at all and has not for over 20 years. I may be more like mo'shay than I think I am. faith

We have so many walking wounded and we seem to be a strong community of survivors and supporters for the most part. I admire your courage in sharing here. I have been following a lot of good advice about writing as healing and writing down my memories from the very first. It gets painful and I have to stop, but then I resume in a day or two. This is not for publication, not deathless writing, probably not for anyone else ever to read, but to help heal some of the scars. It is helping me immensely.

One of the things that Wally talks about is the technique of writing in the third person. I think that might be a help in the case of particularly difficult memories because it could separate them enough to ease the pain of writing them. It's one of the techniques in "inner child" work, also, and could help the writer to see that it was a different person than the person he or she is now. Perhaps it is possible to be more objective in the third person. I think in writing as healing it may be a step towards being able to finally say I did this and I did that and I am taking responsibility for what I did.

And there is also the issue of trust. It might be easier for some prisoners to write in the third person because they fear what might happen if they wrote in the first person. It may be that they think then that if they got a negative reaction, they could always say, "Oh, I wasn't talking about myself, this was about my friend, my neighbor, my sister, someone I made up," etc.

I think we can safely assume that the writing classes are primarily intended to be healing exercises, not necessarily aimed at having prisoners become great writers or published authors.

Welcome to this discussion and Thanks for sharing as it is Not easy but it does help to know that we are not the only ones to have went thru the same things.

Oh Faith, I dont think you are like MoShay..I am delighted that you married and it lasted for a long time. I just hated MoShay's reaction to the world. She simply did not even consider anyone but herself. Not her family or her friends.. Just a boy and herself. This particular reaction to life causes so much trouble.

We do have some amazing stories to share here don't we! Faith thank you for sharing. What was it like to be caring for a baby at such a young age. How did you feel about the demands parenthood made on such a young person? I was 18 when I had my first child. I was married at 17 to my childhood sweetheart, we stayed married for 29yrs until Cancer took him at the age of 49. I know that experienced as I was with children motherhood took me by surprise and those first two years were very hard as I developed post natal depression. I went back into the business world at age 23 and enjoyed my working life very much. Perhaps because I did go back to work I don't feel I totally missed out on life by being such a young mum.

I am back from a week with family in Tennessee--and no access to the computer. I have tried to scan the discussion. Those of you that have stayed with it the whole month have been amazing--so much sharing.

This is what I felt as I read days of the discussion all at once and went through the discussions of several stories in a hurry. These authors have shared such intensely personal stories -- the kind of stories that most of us would feel we had to keep to ourselves and never tell. And until we have it brought to our attention in a book and a TV show and the efforts of people like Wally Lamb, much of society is able to look the other way and pretend that these problems do not exist (or are rare).

Mo'Shay's story is very touching because she was still a child looking for her mother's love when she was going to become a mother. Those sentences are so clear: "Mo'Shay felt lonely, scared, and unwanted. Everything around her was changing, along with her body." Isn't it typical for mothers that age to think the "baby will always be there for her and love her and need her as much as she needed her mother?"

I think in this story she means she found motherlove when her mother decided to support her decision to stay at home and stay in school. But I too wonder about the four children she has now and what has happened to them (and whether they are looking for motherlove.) She wasn't ready to grow up that fast. Nobody is. I have great hope from her comment in her bio about how she is exploring the 'whys' of her past actions through writing and has been given a sense of peace.

I had a small amount of experience in trying to help some families who worked for a business we started when we lived in Tennessee. It is so hard even when there is no crime involved. Families keep passing on the same ways of thinking, the same ways of doing things, the same difficulties, from one generation to the next. When I would see a mother of 5 buying angel food cake for the family's supper, I wondered how on earth those children were ever going to learn about nutrition. If only we were really able to rehabilitate in prison instead of focus on punishment--there might be a way to help some small percentage of the families that are affected by having someone in prison. But then there needs to be help when they get out--which we are discovering is also non-existent.

I think Michelle Jessamy's piece made me think of the enormity of the whole issue of crime and punishment more than some of the others. Marge

Welcome back, Marge! As you all can see I'm running quite a bit behind, Diane's heading is up and the questions are up and doggone it, another searing take your breath away story, painfully and heartbreakingly told, the preface by Wally Lamb had me in tears and again I am speechless? It's hard to find the words, this, of course is affecting my other discussion with Carolyn Heilbrun's book, doggone good thing they, like you, are capable of carrying on while I sit here and...I literally stopped breathing reading this? I noticed it somewhere around page 289, and started to breathe.

What I like about it: I really like the way Diane spares us no expense, say, at the dinner table opening snapshots, (I can almost hear the shutter clicking, can't you?) where we see the "happy" family at dinner and the awful abuse for not EATING!! How she was careful to portray herself as stubborn, defiant (Dad, after all, hated crybabies) and something of a brat, I loved that. She could, easily, in the depiction of this monster father, have made herself out to look like a saint, she did not, instead she is even the more real. I loved that. Not much said on the older sons, I wonder what THEIR memories of Dad were. I wanted to kill him, myself, but I guess that's not PC and all so I'll stifle, like I had to with Barbara's, till I get over it, but it may take a couple of days, what a sweetheart Wally Lamb is, did that not make you tear up?

What were YOUR reactions to Diane's story?

How can anybody brought up like this ever escape? Look at all she did with her life? How can anybody manage?

ginny

My reaction to Diane Bartholomew's story was outrage--to have had a father like that and then 24 years of marriage to an abuser. The only reason that I can see for her to forgive her father was to be able to get some peace of mind. I admire her sharing her story in hopes of changing the American justice system and the public's understanding of domestic violence. And I hope this book helps attain some progress toward that goal. Her story is so sad--she apparently was someone who the others in the writing group loved and admired.

It looks like everyone is moving on to other discussions. It's too bad so many of us were not able to stay throughout. But, thank you, Ginny for encouraging us to participate even if it was a busy time of the year. It has been so enlightening! Your questions were so good and thought-provoking. Marge

She is gone but Not her words as they linger on. Enuff said.

Diane Bartholomew.

"Pain is part of love." This is what Diane Bartholomew says in her story. How misguided growing up with an immature, uncontrolled father made her.

"Pain is part of love." This was her thought in school with a teacher who didn't like her, she thought, because he didn't paddle her to punish her. This is what she thought whan dating the immature bully who became her abusive husband.

She had a defeated mother and a defeated grandmother to raise her. How could she believe anything else except that she would be defeated, too?

She was full of rage about things she was told to forgive. It is no surprise that this rage finally burst out of her in the shape of murder.

Life can be terribly unfair, and it was more than that to Diane Bartholomew. Why, after all she had gone through all of her life, was she struck with cancer? Why, after all the work she did on herself in prison did she have to die?

This is the best and the worst possible story we have read in this book. It makes me want to reach out and hit something hard and scream at the unjustness of this world and society, the damage that's done and the wreckage that's left behind.

Mal

Someone asked whether forgiveness is always the right thing to do, and I believe it is. Not the easiest thing , of course, but the best, nonetheless. Forgiving is not, however, forgetting. For me, forgiving others is part of healing myself -- until I can forgive (but not forget), I'm caught in a web hatred. Forgetting compromises my safety -- I won't tolerate unacceptable behavior, but I can try (at least) to forgive my enemies.

I think Diane B. knew this -- for her, forgiving herself for killing her husband was an ongoing process. I believe that during the process of forgiving herself for her crime, she also forgave her father (at least to some degree) and her husband. As Diane grew closer to her death, she lost her bitter edge. Hatred eats us up, buries us alive if we let it. I have to work on forgiveness of self and others every day. I don't believe I could work with the women at the prison if I hadn't learned something about forgiveness. There's a saying that talks about hating what the person DID but not hating the person -- this rings true for me. I try to imagine what might have brought someone to behave like Hitler or Saddam or any number of less-known maniacs -- not to sanction their cruelty but to understand why people BECOME who they are -- which seems to be through a slow series of (tragic) events. When I learn about the lives of Diane and so many other women (and men) who have suffered under the hands of "loved" ones, I'm amazed that they didn't commit more crimes. Diane never whined about her lot in life -- she knew she'd made plenty of mistakes and her honesty about herself was rare and refreshing. Diane B. was an inspiration to me -- in the face of her own cancer and her own dark moods, she lighted the room with her humor (esp. her ability to laugh at herself); she humbled me. She taught me more about the power of forgiveness that most spiritual teachers. The Lord's Prayer has always spoken to my heart more than any other prayer or meditation -- and, of course, Jesus' message for us rests on forgiveness -- seems to me that Diane lived that prayer --at least she tried to.

I once had a discussion with my mother on forgiving. She gave me away when I was only two to the Wisconsin State Welfare Department. I proceeded to be shuffled through seven different foster homes, three of them while I was in high school. I got reacquainted with her when I was 35 years old and we have had a tenuous relationship since. When she came to visit me she would always talk about what a miserable childhood she'd had and I would just shut my mouth and say nothing until one day I could stand it no longer. I told her in so many words that my childhood had not been a piece of cake either and when she talked like that it just opened old wounds. She said she thought I should just forgive and forget. I remember telling her I did forgive her, but forgetting would be like throwing away a part of myself.

Whatever happens to us becomes as much a part of us as an arm or a leg and forgetting it would be like cutting that arm or leg off. I believe her telling me what a rotten childhood she had was a way of trying to assauge her own guilt. I do forgive her, but I believe she had trouble accepting it. Our relationship today has settled into a fairly casual one. There is no mother-daughter relationship; how can there be? I accept that and I believe she now does too.

Yes, forgiving is a life-long process. Every once in a while something stirs an old memory and I become angry at her again. I have to slip away to someplace quiet and work through it. That part is my problem.

Dale Griffith's post made me cry. I am a cancer survivor, but I went through the long and scary treatment surrounded by loving family, friends, and health providers. I can't even imagine going through that alone, in jail, with nothing but pain to look back on or forward to. I hope at least that she had support from her fellow writers and prisoners. Some of the truly good things that came out of it was the chance to go deep within myself and do some accounting and coming to terms, and the chance to form deeper relationships with family and friends. I am not surprised when Dale says that Diane was a light to her. If you want to see pure courage, visit a chemo or radiation office. I will always remember the wonderful people I met there.

OK I want to go BACK a little bit here, I'm about all caught up now, but I want to go BACK to Nancy's (thank you Nancy) Post 85 which is a reflection on Attorney General Blumenthal's interview with Mr. Thibault's column which IS opinionated, thank you for mentioning that, Nancy. Let's begin there and see what we can see in that post.

That CT's Dept. of Corrections and the state's Atty. General did not know about the book ahead of contract-signing-time is simply not true. Both Wally and HarperCollins attempted to include all concerned parties right from the beginning.

THIS is not good, here? And we have Wally Lamb's own statements about his attempts to let them know before hand as well.

Nancy what was the result of the meeting of the writers and Attorney General Blumenthal? Were you there?

Thank you for explaining the differences in the sum. The number of days times $117.00 per day. Hahaha on the irony of the Naples, Florida hotel efficiency suite price, life is often SO ironic, isn't it? I think we would benefit from knowing where things stand TODAY, if you could bring us totally up to date? The pending legislation is almost impossible to wade thru? We understand that Representative Michael Lawlor
Legislative Office Building, Room 2500
Hartford, Connecticut, 06106-1591
Email: MLawlor99@juno.com

is the person to write in a concern about the women writer's being assessed these fees, is he the instigator of this legislation? I understand he's the head of the Judiciary Committee, will this pending bill eradicate the assessments for the women?

In other words, I'm asking you, if you will, to clarify WHAT we need to includle when we ask him? Will the pending legislation take care of the current suit, would it be good to bring IT up as well, will that legislation call off Attorney General Blumenthal who says he's only doing what the state has asked him to do?

Sue thank you for those statistics on teen age pregnancy and Alabama, it looks like a continuing cycle, yet, as you say many of the parents were young teens when they had children, too. Do you think that our society today simply moves too fast for these young parents, after all in the "old days" people married quite young, and it was a totally different world. What's different in 2004? I wonder if the current crime statistics reflect a proportionate change?

Faith, so glad to see you here, WELCOME! I am sorry you have not been in this discussion, I think you would be much moved by the testimonies of the women here.

I am so sorry for your awful story of rape at 9 and your pregnancy at 14, and yet you married and stayed together for 24 years, and have not had a drink in 20 years, that shows great strength, I think. I have found, that even tho I am most dissimilar to these women in the book's SITUATIONS, I feel quite "one" with them otherwise. I mean, it could have been any of us. The book is full of rapes and incest, and beatings. It's a wonder that any of these women survived, but the amazing thing is not only DID they, they are us in the telling? That's been incredible, these voices out of the blue and…behold, some of them, not all of them, but most of them ARE us?

Incredible, we're all humans on the same path, I think.

Zinnia, I agree, we do seem to be a bunch of survivors here and many have survived things that have not posted here, maybe when you get to a certain age you have lived thru many fires and maybe that's why people seem to think older people are so wise?

That writing down stuff is HARD? I have found that out this week, HARD? HARD? I can't do it myself? If you're trying to write something non committal and cheerfully blasé, that doggone THING just keeps lurking around in the closet and rattling out right in the middle of your prose and, appalled, you stick it back, but it keeps roaring out. I'm amazed at how hard it is, for instance to write a cheerful letter and tell somebody about myself? I can't do it?

Zinnia, wonderful point on the third person thing, I loved your take on the "inner child thing," I've read where therapists take people to a playground and show them a bunch of 8 year olds or 7 year olds and say how could THAT child be at fault? It's supposedly quite healing?

Children tend to blame themselves for everything. Good point on the TRUST issues too.

THIS is a good point, let's ask Dale, "I think we can safely assume that the writing classes are primarily intended to be healing exercises, not necessarily aimed at having prisoners become great writers or published authors. " But I got the impression from Wally Lamb that he WANTED people to write for writing's sake, am I wrong?

Stephanie, do you think Mo'Shay's reaction is a true one for her age? Aren't most teen age girls self centered? (actually like many odder women?)

I kind of like the way she presented her story which shows she does realize how much her mother loved her, she can't be THAT old today?

more….

Carolyn, we DO have amazing stories here, you are right!

It's a double edged sword, motherhood, isn't it? If you have the babies young, then you might say you lack all this wisdom, etc., but you DO have the energy. If you have the babies in your late 40's you have the "wisdom," but you sure as heck lack the energy, …when IS the perfect time? In this aspect then classes on child raising seem mandatory for us lest we repeat over and over the same patterns?

Marge, I agree about those who have stayed with this amazing discussion, the numbers of people reading it continue atronomical, we've never had one like it and we have yet to even get to Dale's piece and, since SHE is the teacher at York, I think SHE is the perfect person to end this incredible experience with.

I agree, thanks to the efforts of people Wally Lamb we now know about things we would not.

You make a very good point about families passing on the "same ways of thinking, the same ways of doing things." EVEN when they don't work.

I like your saying that Michelle's piece made you focus more than any of them on the whole issue of "crime and punishment," we will ask at the very end which story did that for everybody, thank YOU for that focus!

Moving on to Diane's Story, I've now gotten up like I have every day since reading it, thinking, visualizing her on that porch with Wally Lamb. I think that IF she did have to die? Then she went out in style, the picture of the two of them sitting there in silence, with hands extended is so powerful I can't lose it and I'm glad she had that? I'm glad her essay lives on, she WAS gorgeous as a young woman!

Malryn asks why life is unfair? I think maybe Diane will end up more renowned and doing more good than anybody could ever have realized and in THAT way maybe that is her own destiny?

Marge I also felt ourage, if this story had been first, I doubt anybody could have moced to the second story (how skillfully Wally Lamb arranged these) and I agree I do hope this book has made some progress. Let's help it along by doing our part as readers, too, more on that later.

THANK you Marge, for those nice words, it WAS a busy time of year, and it is still a very viable discussion and we'll now take up Dale's part in the next few days. I have a lot of questions for her, and we are not through here yet.

I'm leading the fantastically popular Helibrun discussion, 48 new posts yesterday, and it's fabulous, but THIS one….in this small room and place lies the opportunity to make a change for good, this type of discussion does not come down the pike every day, we need to appreciate the difference in it and the others, and we will not drop that ball, even when the discussion is over and archived, the snowball will roll on and gather speed, I just need to get thru this week! And get organized!! Hahahaa

I agree, Ginger, Diane is still speaking to us, even tho gone, that's one of the powers of the written word.

Good points Malryn on the nature of "forgiveness," I see Dale makes some too, forgive and not forget, that forgive thing is HARD! HARD!

I liked your "Best and worst possible story we have read in this book."

Dale! Welcome in, again, we are so glad to see you. I have a million questions. I liked your thought here,

"For me forgiving others is part of healing myself—until I can forgive (but not forget) I'm caught in a web of hatred."

I think I want that in the heading. HOW on earth can any person forgive some of the things done to them as told in this story and among our participants here? Do you think forgiveness heals the victim more than the person who did the wrong? Do you agree that NOT forgiving, itself causes more problems?

Trying to forgive enemies is VERY hard.

You mention "think Diane B. knew this -- for her, forgiving herself for killing her husband was an ongoing process."

I wondered and you probably know, what WAS it that Diane's husband did that drove her over the edge? Do you know any of the facts surrounding the crime? Are you allowed, even now, to mention it? Is there a judgment against her family? In other words does the Bluementhal suit (I'll call it that) involve the heirs, as well?

"Hatred eats us up, buries us alive if we let it." I agree, but it's very hard to let it go as we can see in her essay. How long before her death was that essay written?

You said,

"I try to imagine what might have brought someone to behave like Hitler or Saddam or any number of less-known maniacs -- not to sanction their cruelty but to understand why people BECOME who they are -- which seems to be through a slow series of (tragic) events."

This past October at the National Book Festival, where we met Wally Lamb and started all this, I went to the new Holocaust Memorial? That was an almost overwhelming experience, have you all been there?

You enter and get the passport of a real victim. You follow along thru the changing times, the news reels the movies, the exhibits of the closing of the stores, the gathering storm, you move thru the boxcars and emerge in the camps yourself and you keep moving and it gets worse and worse and worse. Finally you emerge in a room with 4 foot high concrete circles (to keep the children from seeing) and you look down (there's a separate exhibit for children) into a horror almost unimaginable, the photos of the results of the medical experiments. I will never forget those photos or the expressions on the faces of those people till the day I die. And you carry away the knowledge it was NOT just one Hitler. It was NOT just one Mengele. It was camp after camp after camp, (they list them in case you missed it) person after person after person. It was NOT just one camp one doctor one soldier one person, the statistics keep coming out at you, from the walls from one room with photos of an entire TOWN extinguished and thru the last exhibit which I won't speak of, it speaks to you, no it screams at you, of the beast within all of us, how anybody can forgive that I have no understanding, In the face of this, then, Dale's statement which I want to put in the heading, is so moving:

Diane never whined about her lot in life -- she knew she'd made plenty of mistakes and her honesty about herself was rare and refreshing. Diane B. was an inspiration to me -- in the face of her own cancer and her own dark moods, she lighted the room with her humor (esp. her ability to laugh at herself); she humbled me. She taught me more about the power of forgiveness that most spiritual teachers.

I think here is the lesson we need to get from the entire book, hasn't this been an experience, haven't we ourselves been humbled and blessed by all these fine people taking their own time to share a little light with us? I am overwhelmed by this discussion and the people in it. THANK YOU!

Denjer, another horror story, thank you for the discussion on forgiveness you had with your mother, it's interesting that your mother thought YOU should forgive and forget but she herself apparently did not?

I felt great pain for you when reading your own story. We want so much to honor our parents, that commandment is one of the hardest for anybody to follow, particularly when the parent is not only not honorable but dishonorable and CONTINUES so, that's very hard, I am sorry.

let me get this one up and then say more….

OK I've sent Pat some stuff for Dale's questions page as well as a new question here for the heading on the nature of Forgiveness, thank you for introducing that difficult concept here!

Joan, I did also, what strength Diane has showed us in her story. This is our last day for Diane's story, do any of you have any more thoughts on it?

Dale mentions the humor Diane had, what instances in this searing tale do you see of humor?

We have several themes running thru this snapshot album of Diane's life, we have the forgiveness theme, and the one Malryn mentioned, pain comes as part of love, we have the theme of if people love you they punish you. The nature of "love" is also throughout the story. She says on page 304, "It's become increasingly clear to me that, in spite of everything, Mom has never stopped loving Dad." That one brought me up short. Hasn't she? What IS love here, that's …is that YOUR definition of "love," or could it be something else? Trying to "catch him," getting up the whole family to try to catch him in the act? IS that love or is it something else?

WE don't like to talk about this story because it's SO searing and SO difficult. What about Grammy? Trying to see her son at the hospital?

"Maybe I’m strong, too. Maybe that's why I can't cry." (page 308). This is in reference to Grammy's death.

Do you think, in reference to a death situation, that not being able to cry is a result of strength?

I like the way she puts that in a question there? I very much like her subtlety in this story.

"I'm probably the only person in America who thinks Jackie's homely," (page 310). Did you pause over this? Did YOU consider Jacqueline Kennedy homely, pretty or otherwise?

Oh and there's so much more in this thing, that first party she ever had in her life coming at the hands of her strange mother in law, why was THAT?

Penny for your thoughts this fine day in the new year?

ginny

Ginny for what it is worth - we each have our own understanding of forgiveness and we each have our own struggle with forgiveness - something I learned that made sense is that as long as you cannot forgive you are attached to that person - you continue to attract situations and people in your life that give you another opportunity to work out the difficulties and seldom can you fix it with the next opportunity - once forgiveness takes place you no longer need to work out the situation -

With that in mind I was helped to see forgiveness more as a letting go, completely detaching from the person - my way has been to realize we are all God's children regardless how much evil we create - since I am not God I do not have that kind of strength to forgive - if I try for retribution I am not only looking for someone or thing to fix my pain but I am trying to be equal to the one who hurt me since I want to feel whole as a result of this person fixing me. In other words I want them to fix my pain and that just does not sit well with me - and so let God do the whole thing -

Let God determine if this person will change or feel the consequence of his actions - it is no longer my concern - I do not have and I never had the ability to change another much less change those who hurt me - and so by having nothing to do with them - wish them good luck in my heart - know that God will provide me and them with whatever is best for my and their spiritual growth - that if they choose or not to use their experiences for growth is their business - I can and will go about the business of fixing myself and soothing my spirit - that alone takes a lot of energy along with changing my behavior that is in reaction to my experiences - Trust as Zinnia says is a big one

Some folks think forgiveness is to make-up and be friends - no, I see it more as letting God do all that and become a friend to myself for a change and completely detach with no expectation of earthly or emotional support from anyone who hurt me.

As to family members that hurt - that is where it is hard - very hard - we all want the love of our parents - regardless how abusive we do not want our parents to leave - and even as an adult we remember there was and is as much good stuff as bad stuff, so that it is very confusing and most difficult - sometimes learning the parents background helps - Ginny, few are all bad...some of us use crumbs and make them into mountains because we want so badly to feel we were lovable and we want so much to attach ourselves to where love eminates, which is with our parents - we search for scraps of parential love. Some even say we create an inner God based on our parents and that is why we have groups that create religions that do not include an "all" accepting God.

I also think all of this can only be done when you are not simply in another power over situation but are in a position to create your own values and personal standards that are accepted and respected by others in society. The "whole" of being hurt is to have lived in a powerless situation where you were always trying to out guess and out maneuver ways to be safe that never worked since you are not as quick or skilled as your perpetrator.

Jacqueline Kennedy had charm, class and style. Her eyes were good; her nose was not, her mouth looked like those big red wax lips we used to wear when I was a kid. No, she was not truly beautiful.

Diane Bartholomew's mother confused abuse with love just as Diane thought pain was part of love. Each one had a dependency on abuse and pain. If they didn't get them, they thought they weren't loved.

Mal

Just as people become addicted to substances and forget to protect their children, they can also become addicted to people and do the same. It sounds to me like that is what was going on with her mother.

I think that sometimes "forgiveness" might be impossible... in certain situations or for certain people. But I think it might be possible in those situations to at least hand those people back to the universe and let go of your unforgiveness, the burden you are carrying because of them. If I continue to hate and to rent them space in my head, then I am the one being hurt, I take over the hurting process begun by that person. As Dale said, I don't have to forget.

I am making the most astounding discoveries and healings by writing my story, as I said previously. Things are bubbling to the surface that have been long and deeply buried. I am understanding many more things and able to let go of so much that I am astounded. It was Wally's book list in the back of the book and Anne Lamott's book on that list that got me started on this and I will be forever grateful. I am astounded at the difference between thinking about things and talking about them or writing about them. Somehow, the act of writing them,taking them from my head and putting them in another location, not only begins the healing, it also helps drag the other parts out of the subconscious and allows a closer inspection of them in the cold light of day. I have had so many "aha!" moments, so many epiphanies and I am beyond grateful to Wally Lamb, SeniorNet, and this discussion.

The first day that I began, I wrote for hours and hours; it was like a dam had burst and I just had to keep writing and keep going back to set down the parts that started bubbling to the surface as I continued. When I stopped that day, I was emotionally exhausted and I could not write again for several days. And I find that pattern continuing. Once I start, it pours out, and it's almost like fresh woundings, so then I usually have to stop for a couple of days to let those wounds heal.

And once it is down, it does not mean that I can never speak of it again. It means that it has lost the power to hurt me. Again, as Dale said, I don't have to forget.

My daughter's drug and alcohol group seems to be using a similar technique and it has worked wonders for her. She called and read me six pages that she had written (none of this writing needs to ever be read by anyone but she wanted to do this, perhaps as a part of her own healing). It was no doubt painful to write and more painful to read and yet she felt that something really heavy had lifted once she had done it. She continues to write her own story and to make wonderful progress in changing her life.

And yes... I did think Jackie Kennedy was ugly and never could understand why others thought her pretty or beautiful. Her eyes were way too far apart, and it interested me that this is often a sign of drug and/or alcohol abuse in the parents, along with an ill-defined or missing philtrum, and hers was rather ill-defined. Here's a photo: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3650090683&category=551#ebayphotohosting

I learned not to cry at a very young age, because crying usually brought more severe abuse (it backfired sometimes). When Diane said that about not crying, I wondered...

Bad breath is better than no breath at all; negative attention is better than no attention at all in some cases.

Wow, well I was coming in to say that we'll be looking at Dale's essay starting tomorrow afternoon late, I have classes in the morning but I hope to be in tomorrow evening so everybody wants to read to the very last now and gee, once again your posts are quite stunning.

Barbara, how beautifully put and interesting, your take on forgiving

and - something I learned that made sense is that as long as you cannot forgive you are attached to that person - you continue to attract situations and people in your life that give you another opportunity to work out the difficulties and seldom can you fix it with the next opportunity - once forgiveness takes place you no longer need to work out the situation -

You know, that explains a lot about the way some people behave, it explains a lot, I appreciate your saying that.

I also was struck by this,

Ginny, few are all bad...some of us use crumbs and make them into mountains because we want so badly to feel we were lovable and we want so much to attach ourselves to where love emanates, which is with our parents - we search for scraps of parental love. Some even say we create an inner God based on our parents and that is why we have groups that create religions that do not include an "all" accepting God.

Golly, I have not heard that one, what a concept!

Thank you for that beautiful post.

Malryn and Zinnia, you too? on Jackie Kennedy? I do recall thinking at the time she was not pretty, (I must have been nuts, look at her she's gorgeous?) She was different looking I think, but she sure looks good to me now, does she seem prettier NOW?

Zinnia, what's a "along with an ill-defined or missing philtrum?"

Malryn I do believe you are right, both Diane's mother and Diane had that belief. The getting the children up to see Dad, to catch him with a flashlight? That to me is not love, that's hurt and that's wanting vindication: if the kids see it then he'll be destroyed in their eyes, that's not love, to me. OR is there a possible alternative take on that scene?

Now THIS, Zinnia, is really fabulous!

I am making the most astounding discoveries and healings by writing my story, as I said previously. Things are bubbling to the surface that have been long and deeply buried. I am understanding many more things and able to let go of so much that I am astounded.

am astounded at the difference between thinking about things and talking about them or writing about them. Somehow, the act of writing them, taking them from my head and putting them in another location, not only begins the healing, it also helps drag the other parts out of the subconscious and allows a closer inspection of them in the cold light of day. I have had so many "aha!" moments, so many epiphanies and I am beyond grateful to Wally Lamb, SeniorNet, and this discussion.

Wow! That is so exciting, and I do understand that "bubble" thing.

When this is over, at the end of this week, we'll get a little more organized but we are going to send Wally Lamb in writing, not in email, our thanks, and also to Nancy B and Dale and Nancy W, and we'll let everybody know so if they would like to speak to any of the writers directly in mail they can do it as part of our combined thanks, I think a LOT of good will come out of this, I am very...I'm still over the moon about it.

Think for a minute what a wrenching thing it must be to try TO help we've only heard a few stories, think of how many more there are out there: how hard it must be sometimes, for how many reasons. And then look at the posts Dale has made here and you can see what sort of person she is, and Nancy, and Wally Lamb, and Nancy W and Tabbi who has not made it in here yet but she's a sweetheart, these are just super people, I'm SO in awe of all of them, truly.

And so, inspired, I think we must in our own way, help.

Oh LOOK at this!

Here is Nancy just a week of ago with her dad's monkey table. Don't you love that? Even I, who HATE monkeys, love that one, thank you Nancy for letting us see it!

I was just idly looking at the back cover of the book, looking at Nancy in this photo, and have you noticed that some of the photos on the back cover are not the same as the ones inside? Look at Nancy B's photo with the mortar board? They aren't the same. I noticed that because of her eyes, she has the most expressive eyes. I look at all those faces (I think you can see who hates to have this end, it's already run over) but don't you, when you look at all those faces, they aren't just faces any more, on a book? Just an illustration? You don't feel like they are just faces but people you know and we REALLY know some of them, we've MET them, amazing, really amazing.

I also want to say I really like the way the authors's own names are on top of their pages. I don't know whose idea that was but I love it. How many times have you read a book of essays or short stories and the author's name never gets on each page, making it easy to remember the compiler and not the individuals, somehow I have a feeling that was Wally Lamb's doing, too, maybe not, but it sure fits the mold: I appreciate it.

Tomorrow afternoon we'll take up the last story in the book, Dale Griffith's Bad Girls, and we do have some questions already up for her, and some of which she has answered. I especially appreciate this discussion on forgiveness and I do think that hatred really damages the one hating, I liked what Dale said, "Hatred eats us up, buries us alive if we let it. I have to work on forgiveness of self and others every day. I don't believe I could work with the women at the prison if I hadn't learned something about forgiveness." I thought that was wonderful, I have a feeling Dale is a light, too, this whole thing has been incredible.
(And Zinnia, I'm glad you have looked over the resources at the back of the book also, I think we might benefit here in some of our reading groups by studying maybe more than one of them, I'm glad you found them helpful.!)

OK tomorrow, Dale Griffith and Bad Girls!

I am looking forward to talking about Dale's story, so much I want to know!

Until tomorrow, is there ANYTHING at all from the book, anything we have not talked about, anything you would like to bring up or comment on before we begin the last story?

What would you say is the one thing you will TAKE away with you, from having read this book?

ginny

The philtrum is that little groove between your nose and the middle of your upper lip. I don't know any other name for it or I would have used a simpler term.

I think Anne Lamott's book would be wonderful to study... I think it is the best of the best, both as to discussing the craft of writing and just as a very good (and hysterically funny in places) read. I have gained a lot from several of the other books but nothing like what I have learned and am learning from Bird by Bird. I got it from the library but this is one I have to have in my own library, so I will be buying a copy. Ditto CKITM.

I take away a far better understanding of the human beings in prison, prison conditions, and an even greater understanding of myself. I take away a need to do as Nancy Birkla does and be vocal and pushy and unrelenting and whatever else it takes to make changes in our prison system so that we can rehabilitate people instead of making them and their lives worse, both in and out of prison. I take away a better understanding of many of my fellow SeniorNetters, and extreme admiration for nearly everyone involved in this discussion. I think I will gain even more from Dale.

Nancy's openness in sending out her album was marvelous. She is a real role model and I am already using her as such. She is so beautiful, inside and out.

Ginny, I can't say enough about how you have spearheaded this discussion and kept everything together and flowing along. And beyond that, your questions and remarks add and have added so much to the overall experience. You're my "Oh, yeah!" person. I read what you have to say and I keep saying that..."Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah!" " LOLOL!!!

Whew, I too began weeping when I read Dale's post concerning Diane and forgiveness. It made me think back to a time (not really all that long ago) when I hung on, as if my life somehow depended upon it, to all my bitterness and resentment and anger toward several individuals who injured me pretty terrifically in the past.

After reading what Dale wrote (along with other posts since), I remembered a book I read a few years ago that helped me greatly in finally becoming able to practice forgiveness in my own life. I brought the book home from my office with me tonight and have managed to get lost in it all over again! The title of the book is, Forgiveness: How to Make Peace With Your Past, by Dr. Sidney B. Simon and Suzanne Simon.

This is a book that explains (in reader friendly terminology) the entire jouney towrd forgiveness.

Chapter one: Forgiveness

Thank you for the book recommendation! I'm off to find it now...

EDIT: Found that our library system had five copies at one time but most of them are checked out and presumed lost... which tells me people check out this book and can't part with it, I think!

So now I'm off to buy a copy. Off the discussion.. not offline... LOL!

Somehow I posted before I meant to, so continuing with what I was writing . . .

Chapter one: Forgiveness Two: How Have We Been Hurt? Three: The Walking Wounded -- What We Have Done Because We Were Hurt Four: The Healing Process: A Journey To Wholeness Five: Denial Six: Self-Blame Seven: The Victim Stage Eight: The Indignation Stage Nine: The Survivor Stage Ten: Integration

This book gives good explainations of why some of us do the things we do as the result of being hurt, and it provides self-evaluation type exercises. It also leans heavily on writing things out in order to better understand oneself.

Here are a few of my favorite quotes from this book:

"Forgiveness is freeing up and putting to better use the energy once consumed by holding grudges, harboring resentments, and nursing unhealed wounds. It is rediscoverning the strengths we always had and relocating our limitless capacity to understand other people and ourselves. It is breaking the cycle of pain and abuse, ceasing to create new victims by hurting others as we ourselves were hurt (p.19)."

And another:

"Where would you rather be? To answer that question, you must first ask yourself another even tougher one: How does NOT forgiving serve me? What do I get from it, and what am I afraid I will lose if I give up my grudges and resentments?

At this juncture in your life and your healing process, you must determine if what you get from not forgiving is truly worth what you give up. Do you wnat to keep what you have, or do you want to reach out for more? Will you, out of fear or anger or pride, hold onto your grudges and resentments, or will you begin choosing to heal?(p. 70-71)."

One more:

"Once you have traveled far enough down that long, winding, often painful road we call the healing process, you will indeed find forgiveness and inner peace waiting for you. Your present will become more powerful than your past, and as a result you will not want to be held back or bogged down by old injuries and injustices. You will want to let go of them instead (p. 206)."

I still love this book.

Last week I gave an e-mail address for KY's Prison Education Program Coordinator, who works (as I do) for KY's community and technical college system. This woman is working sooooo hard to keep GED prep, and technical and college degree programs in all of our state's prisons, and her latest challenge is to do so without any money at all in KY's budget for funding prison education in any form.

The woman's name is Gaye Holman, and as far as I'm concerned she's really a bit of a miracle worker when it comes to making impossible things happen. She knows all the "ins and outs" of gaining community support and raising funds, which (lets face it)is quite a task when what you're asking for is money to benefit prisoners.

Gaye knows far more than I do about the glum facts concerning declining support of education and rehabilitation not only in KY prisons, but also on a national level.

I sent a message out to Gaye today, giving her a little "heads up" that I'd taken the liberty of given her e-mail address out to you folks at SeniorNet (and frankly I was a little nervous about taking that liberty w/out her permission, but I had no way of contacting her over our holiday break). Anyhow, here's part of what she wrote to me in her reply:

"Nancy, That's great! I'd love to talk with them. Our main idea is to spread positive thoughts about programs and to give other people ideas for their own areas. Thanks SO MUCH for your interest."

So, once again if any of you are interested in learning how we who work in KY are keeping education in our prisons without any state funding to do it with, you can contact Gaye Holman at the following e-mail address: gaye.holman@kctcs.edu

That's it for now! NAB :0)

Your Posts have all been Very good and full of true wisdom and you write in reader friendly terminology "your words" Not mine, untill you gave them to us. That to me that is your secret to sucess in writing. Did you learn it from Wally?, Did it come naturaly?, I Believe it came Naturaly from your heart so to speak. Smile.

Your S/N sister, Ginger

Good Morning Ginger (and all),

I'm working from home today, so it's a little easier than it is when at my office, to sneak off into things I'd rather do!

Questions concerning my relationship with Wally have come up more than a few times througout the past weeks of this discussion, and I've deflected them each time. My reason for not directly answering is not due to shyness (obviously) or even because I feel the questions have been too personal. The reason I've waivered is because it's hard for me to explain how I feel about Wally Lamb without gushing and going on and on w/accolades and praises, and then (because he's such a truly humble guy) he gets embarrassed. So when I refrain from all the said gushing, it's strictly out of respect for his discomfort that results from my ramblings about him. With that said, I'll try answering those questions now.

Wally was the one and only family member (outside of my immediate family) who knew anything about my regretable past for about 10 years prior to my decision to publish my essay.

I had returned to Louisville, after the family reunion of 1993, painfully aware that nobody had been told anything about my 20 (or so) year absence from our family "back home." I'd actually hoped that my parents had talked about me and my problems over the years, but during that particular visit I realized just how ashamed my family had felt over me, and I could barely stand thinking about it; it was really a breaking point for me concerning finally releasing the pressure cooker valve that was keeping all of my shame and regret over my past sealed inside of me (at the time I'd been in recovery for about 4 years).

Somehow I managed mustering the courage to make a phone call to Wally, and I told him about what had happened to me over the years. I felt comfortable doing so because he'd treated me so kindly at the reunion. As kids we'd shared many, many good times drawing pictures, telling stories and writing together at our Nonna's dining room table (while the rest of the kids played outside or down in the basement), and suddenly I felt so very sad over walking away from my relationship with him and then staying away for so many years.

I believe that particular phone conversation became the empetus for the rest of this story that eventually led to our joint effort concerning CKITM. I told him I wasn't sure what I should do about my future and that all I ever really liked doing was writing. I also mentioned the journal I'd kept while in prison.

Two things Wally said to me during that conversation ultimately made a difference in my life. The first was that if I wanted to consider writing, I really needed to go back to college and learn there about writing formally. He also told me that "memoir" is not easily embraced by the reading public, unless an author is already famous for other reasons, so I guess I owe him a big thank you TWICE -- once for encouraging me to go back to school and again for working hard and making himself famous, so eventually folks would end up becoming interested in reading what I wrote jointly with him!

Over the next 7 (or so) years, Wally and I began writing back and forth and keeping better track of each other (pretty easy for me to do when all I sometimes had to do sometimes was turn on the Oprah show, huh?). I began receiving lovely notes and cards from him each time I moved forward into a new success in life, and I really can't explain the internal healing and release of shame that came for me as the result of those correspondences.

Still, I was totally shocked the day I received the initial e-mail from Wally asking if I'd be interested in sending writing samples and perhaps submitting an essay for "possible inclusion" in the book.

Then boy-oh-boy, he really babysat me through some serious family reaction when I decided to move forward with it (and remember, my family is his family too, so how hard must that have been for him).

He taught me everything from the history of the Sicilian "code of silence," to my right to tell my own story. He also remained sensative to my need to move forward without committing, telling me often that if I decided not to go through with publishing, he'd continue loving me anyhow.

As Wally wrote in one of his posts, working together on the book really connected us once again as family and as good friends, and I know that God's fingerprints remain all over this completed effort concerning both the writing of the book and also the healing of our relationship.

Ginger, concerning my writing and whether it comes naturally, or if I learned it from Wally -- well, between both sides of my family, there have been many physical, emotional and mental disorders that are believed to cause genetic pre-dispositions, but in Wally's case and I'm sure my own, I believe some really great genes also made it through the filters of our shared gene pool!

I did hear hear Wally speak in DC and thought God has him or is dealing with his heart and now that I have read the book and have met both of you on line I see God's fingerprints remaining all over this completed effort concerning both the writing of the book and also the healing of your relationship, andagee and really that is what I meant as it all comes from God to hearts and minds of those willing to accept it, No matter what path "religion" we are following.

Because I am hard of hearing I seen a friend and gave up my seat to get to the speakers but then my back start up so I sat beind the platform where he was speaking and could hear him Very well and was one happy camper. Since DC in 2003 I have bought a walker with a seat so this would Not happen to me again. Thank you for answering me, I appriecieate it.
Ginger

I don't know how to include a hyperlink into a post, but here is the http:// address for a copy of the original cost of incarceration statute that was in effect (as I believe it still is) when the lawsuits against the women were filed last January:

http://www.cga.state.ct.us/2001/sba/2001SB-01048-R00-BA.htm

Ginny, in anwering one of your questions, no, since I am not directly involved (other than through opinion), I was not included in the meeting between the women and CT's Atty General, although I did write letters to various CT state officials, including both Mr. Blumenthal and Mr. Lawler (w/no response from either).

What was shared w/me (secondhand, of course) by one of the women who was present was that the meeting felt a bit gratuitous in nature and that nothing productive or of a problem-solving nature was probably ever intended to come out of it, on the behalf of the AG.

Now about the staute that I've tried including a link to above (and please bear in mind that this is my own "opinion or interpretation" concerning what I see when I read it reading it -- not necessarily facts of the matter).

I don't see anything in the statute that addresses the state being able to garnish or seize money that is earned through gainful employment. What I see when I read this document is a course of action that enables the state to seize money that would be considered "windfall" or money that falls outside of rightful income.

Also, as I understand this wording, even if the money were "windfall" of origin, the state still would only be able to seize 50%, unless the source of the "seizable funds" exceeded 200% of the formerly incarcerated individual's bill (in other words, according to what I am reading, the person never has to give up more than 50%).

Another interesting point (and again this is second-hand information, coming directly from a source closer to the legal end of things than even the women themselves) is that Diane's estate has been left exempt from the suit, even though (again according to my own interpretation) legal seizure of all her could legally be applied toward paying her outstanding prison tab.

For all of these reasons, I have a difficult time believing that the suit has less to do with continuing punitive punishment, perhaps the result of the content of WHAT was written and published more so than what is being earned through the publication of the book. I mean puleeeaaaease, I just don't buy any other reason that the only contributor who could be held rightfully financially accountable, but who is no longer around to be the recipient of any continuing punishment, being the only one exempt from the suit!

And just one more thing -- I know it's really hard not to know specific events that led to certain actions; trust me, it's just as hard not to be able to tell of them, but by doing so (even now) we would be in violation of the Son of Sam Statute.

Without speaking directly concerning Diane's or any of the other contributors to CKITM's specific details that lead to various breaking points (my own included; I'm just luckier than some of the others, in that nobody in my house ended up killed), I can tell you with certainty that in most instances, breaking points come after sexual abuse in the relationship become a paramount issue.

Breaking points come after incurring bodily injuries, including anal and vaginal tears, or after being forced to prostitute under threat (sometimes w/use of a weapon) of your spouse that you must. Breaking points come as the result of never having the ability or opportunity to heal from your own chilhood sexual abuse and then you find out about that "just one more mistake" extra-marital affair, after dozens of promises that it would never happen again; breaking points come after finding out that naked photos of you have been posted on the Internet; they come after finding hidden video cameras in your own bedroom, after learning that that family members that you love, often children, have been sexually abused by your own husband. Breaking points come in many forms, (universally, not just to those who wrote for this book), but for those who have been sexually abused in the past, those breaking points almost always come as the result of an issue within the relationship that is sexual in origin.

My family is full of secrets and full of things "we don't talk about" and I think that is a big part of what has torn us all asunder. I was always being shushed, even as a senior adult, because of their need to keep those secrets, but I was never good at staying shushed. I am so glad that you got to bring the secrets out in the open and move on and I think it's a big part of healing to be able to do that. I think it's Bradshaw who calls it "shame based" thinking and I wonder why anyone thinks that something anyone else does somehow diminishes them. I also wonder how anyone can think that a person can heal if he or she is required to be always on guard about mentioning "certain" things.

To include a hyperlink in a post, just type out (or copy and paste), the URL.

Also, if you post prematurely or find something you want to correct or change, there is an edit button at the top of your post. You have half an hour to edit or delete any post you have made.

You can get information on any poster by clicking on his or her name, but that is only if they have chosen to include information and/or email address.

Today's Montgomery Advertiser had this story on the State news page. You can read the full article here: http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWS/indexAlabama.htm

It begins: "They arrived at the Lee County Justice center at about 8 a.m., 10 girls ranging in age from 13 to 17. They come from different backgrounds, but they all have one thing in common--if something doesn't change, they will end up behind bars."

I wonder if any of the authors in CKITM might have changed direction if this type of field trip or similar activity had been available to them? Sue

Sue, thank you so much for that article! We appreciate it, I wonder, too, if something like that would have made a difference in some of the prisoners if they had toured a facility or not? Nancy, Dale, what do YOU think?

Nancy, thank you sooo much for everything you have done, thank you for talking to Gaye Holman, we will definitely be getting in touch with her, we will get selves organized around the first of next week, thank you so much for that information and email!

Oh that book on Forgiveness sounds wonderful, love those quotes, I think that might make a super book for a future discussion, and I see Zinnia likes it too!

The quotes are fabulous and actually can apply to other situations, some of them, I think it might be great, and we do have several psychologists here on SN who might participate as well. Why not? Whyever not?? I never heard of that book and have already ordered it.

Thank you also Nancy for that charming personal story of you and Wally Lamb, it's impossible NOT to gush about Wally Lamb, and just reading what you said again, the MAN is …the thing that has amazed me the most here, I think (Zinna thank you for those wonderful thoughts on what you will take away with you, I'm going to use those in the Reader's Guide for this book we're making they are incredible, and thank you very much for the kind words) but what I will take away is being overwhelmed by the incredible goodness of everybody involved here, especially the authors, they don't HAVE to come in here or take their time but they are. I've really enjoyed this.

Zinnia, the Ann Lamott sounds good too, and again, we have not ever done that type of book, how to write, etc., in the Books either, it seems a very promising springboard, this discussion, for lots of good things, and we're ready, here in the Books, we're more than ready. Sometimes I think we've been waiting for this all this time.

Ginger!!!! Ginger gave ME her seat when Wally Lamb spoke, and moved closer, there were no seats, that's the kind of person she is, and until this minute I did not realize she had sat down behind the stage, she just simply disappeared, and I did not know what happened to her, I thought well my goodness ginger has looked forward to Wally Lamb all day and she left?!? I thought she had a problem of some kind. Had I known where she was, I would have picked up the chair and come and found her !@Jeepers that makes me feel BAD, I had to fight her giving me the chair in the first place, she actually had moved off determinedly and this beady eyed woman was closing purposefully in on it so I sat in self defense (he was talking at that point). {{{{GINGER}}}}THANK you! I will NEVER sit down again when you offer! Hahaahaha

Nancy thank you for the answers to the questions on the lawsuit and your careful going thru it. That's very helpful to us and I'm going to separate a copy of your post for later reference, with the url, thank you. It IS confusing. And it IS good to know that Diane's heirs don't have that hanging over their heads.

By doing so, that is, being specific about why they were incarcerated (even now) you would violate the Son of Sam Statute?

This discussion was the first time I had heard of THAT statute, too. So many firsts..

Thank you so much for everything you've done!

Tonight we get to Dale's essay and I've got it almost entirely underlined, we can see in her very moving post above which brought almost everybody here to tears, what kind of a person she is, I think her essay is a good end, a good coda to the book.

I love the way it draws in the reader, just like Wally Lamb was talking about in the elements of writing..

I had some flashbacks myself there for a minute to a local prison, I also used to be driven past and warned about as a child, and it also looked "mysterious and enchanting," huge place, so I especially I liked the title, Bad Girls and what happens to them, and the continuing theme thru the piece, loved it.

Ironic, isn't it, that "if you were a bad girl, you went there, if you were good, you didn't." I love that, and NOW Dale is driving up to it and IN it and she's DEFINITELY not "bad."

I loved the preparation for the job interview, and her remembering her mother as to who belonged there and who did not.

Dale has a talent of bringing the reader immediately inside the character and making the reader share the moment, I think.

The "And don't be no trick," I think I understand now, also, but it was confusing at first.

I really enjoyed her description from the inside perspective, of the changes when Niantic (is that an Indian name?) went over to being a maximum security facility, it's very clear and vivid, you almost feel you are there, some of it reminds me so much of my years with OIC.

I loved The Gingerbread House and the greenhouse and the contests, and the poetry classes outdoors.

I think I'd like to ask, Dale, what subjects do you teach at Niantic today? How long is your day? How is it divided? Do you do English and GED and Writing or what other subjects do you teach? Do you go every day? Do you only teach those who volunteer to come and what percentage would you say, we've heard only 25% take advantage of the programs, does that sound right? What sizes are your classes?

Dale mentions Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye I think that's one I have not read, have you all read it?

She quotes several authors on the benefit of opening up in writing and I have also not read Opening Up and Writing as a Way of Healing,

I think we might…what sort of training does a facilitator of something like that need as preparation? I wonder if we could try to read a book like that and then write something? Would we need a trained facilitator to do that?

Dale, one of the stories mentions the Returnees during the holidays, do you have many come back to Niantic, and do they do that because, as you say, on page 327, "for many, prison is a step up from life on the streets—a safe harbor of sorts?" Or do they not have family? That seemed particularly sad, to me? OR is it not? I'm learning that what I might have thought initially might be wrong?

I thought Dale made a stunning point with this sentence, " It's particularly difficult to find safe housing for women between the ages of sixteen and twenty-one. Trapped between childhood and woman hood, these unfortunates often wind up back on the streets, where they fall prey to all kinds of trouble." (page 347).

I had never thought of that aspect of the release of prisoners till this minute, despite the fact of seeing with my own eyes how YOUNG some of the people in the PBS Show were! And if they have nowhere to go and nobody to support them, and a prison record, how are they going to plunge into this wonderful new life?

What sorts of transitional things exist?

I was very impressed with what the York School staff did, calling on the outside community and the volunteers you had who came forward, let me quote here,

: poets and journalists, dancers and musicians, humorists and businesswomen and Buddhist monks. And the award-winning author and teacher Wally Lamb.

What a joy to read about "Wally Days" and the "Lambettes." (and Elvis singing Blue Christmas@) haahahah

Are those classes open to everybody? How large IS the school staff at Niantic?

The part about Revision was wonderful. The Lambettes are committed to revision. "Revision does more than improve the writer's work; it teachers patience as well, a quality that's especially useful in prison. The women learn over time that good writing, like a good life, requires effort and forbearance. It requires courage, too, but yields reward as well. Writing seems to provide a means of self-forgiveness and when the writer grants herself such a reprieve, healing begins.

Love that. And I really had no idea, until now, about how powerful it was TO write? I really did not?

And here's the quote that's perfect:

Lie you and me and the rest of us, they need a little kindness, a little forgiveness. I know that, but for the grace of God, I might not be the one who gets to leave the compound at the end of the day and drive home to the people I love. This knowledge keeps me both humble and grateful.

Didn't you love the last sentence of the piece?

"My bodies still in prison but my spirit's finally free."

WOW~ What can you SAY but WOW! I mean I guess it gets old to keep reading it but I don't know what else to say, you get to the point where you are out of words, breath, and former perceptions.

It's easy to dash something off, some facile thing when you're not moved or emotionally engaged, when you can keep it at arm's length, but when your socks are knocked off and you forgot to breathe for 10 pages, it's definitely harder!

HATS off to Dale and Nancy and Wally Lamb and everybody like them who makes such a difference in the lives of others, this has been the MOST incredible experience we've encountered in the Books in 7 years.

ginny

I sat down back of where Wally was speaking so I could hear him as I could not hear him from the chair we shared so please do take a chair when offered as there is a reason for the sharing like me not being able to hear from there. Somebody was going to get it so why Not someone I know.

Bird by Bird

Yes, this is a book about how to write... sort of. But it's more a book about how to get started, how to be real about wwhat you are writing, and about writing as healing. One of the things she ways is that most of her students really aren't so much interested in writing as they are in getting published and they are not willing to do the work required to actually learn how to write.

Anne Lamott has been down the addiction road and has triumphed, also. This is one of the best books I have ever read, and not just about "how to write." My focus has been art as healing but I am going to incorporate some of her techniques in the things I'm doing and the healing work that I'm doing with others, even the children, and mostly because of what has begun to happen to me since I read it.

I already had some of the books on the list and I either checked out of the library or bought all but one of the others. I can tell you for sure that this is the absolute best of the bunch. I have not yet read Writing as a Way of Healing because it has not arrived, but I'll let you know if my opinion changes. Others may have read some or all of the books and have other opinions; those are mine.

Overall, I don't care for Tony Morrison's books, with the exception of that very one, "The Bluest Eye." That is a very good book and one I can read over and over.

I thought Dale's piece was the ideal way to finish up the book,because it gave us a different perspective, a kind of validation of all the others. As I said some time back, "...having Dale's last was like putting the frosting on the cake, because what she said was like a benediction as well as a confirmation of so much of what the others had to say." She confirms more from our frame of reference what the book has brought us to understand from the standpoint of the other writers.

I guess my biggest question to Dale would be to ask how (or if) she is able to maintain a professional "distance" from the women in her classes. How difficult has it been not to become emotionally involved to the extent that it interferes with her work or her life?

"My students' treasures are buried under piles of emotional and institutional rubble --- yet the treasures are there, waiting to be unearthed and discovered."

Every teacher should feel this way. Substitute any word you want to for "institutional".

It reminds me of a young man I was in a musical show with once. He stuttered terribly, and because of it did badly in school. One day a teacher told him to sing, and it was discovered that when he sang he didn't stutter. Hidden treasures.

"Writing as healing." I have written all my life and never thought of it as therapy. To me, writing about myself in that way was, in the past, a way to keep track of where I was. I don't do that any more, but the experience and practice have been a great help when it comes to writing other things that are ficitonal or non-fictional. By writing about me through childhood and part of my adult years, I "got over myself' and was free, if you know what I mean.

I admire Dale Griffith's dedication and her stamina. Not everyone could do the job she does so well.

Thanks also to Nancy Birkla, who has been such an enormous help to us in this discussion, and to Wally Lamb, Nancy Whiteley and Dale.

Mal

Because I was sick with flu, I got behind in my reading and am just catching up. So I missed a chance to post at the end of the POV discussion. Ginny asked, and will ask here, I'm sure: what is the one thing that is different about me now from seeing this show. There are many answers which I'll post on later, but one thing seeing the prisoners added to the book for me was to hit home the tremendous struggle and hard, hard work these women are doing to make sense of their lives and discover who they are. This comes through in everything we read (especially by you, NANCY) but I guess I had to see in person these women sweating, and stumbling; lying to themselves and not letting themselves lie to themselves to realize what this task is. I was asked at the beginning if I could write about myself the way these women do and said I thought I could write, but wasn't sure I could tell the truth. By this, I meant seeing my life as it is, and not making it into a neat "story". More and more I come to realize that that is what I need to do. If these women, many of whom were taught to live a lie their whole life can do it, what is my excuse?

Hi All,

Looks like things are wrapping up in this discussion, and you can all rest assured I'll miss coming in to visit you :0(. This has been an amazing experience for me, and I want to thank you for inviting me to join you.

I know, I know, I'm invited to stick around for other dicussions, especially since I meet the age qualification and all (hey, if this is the kind of stimulation my mind can get as I grow older, then bring on those golden years!!!).

I'll be back; I assure you of that (by the way, if S/N does decide to discuss the Forgiveness book, please, please will somebody let me know?).

For the time being, though, we're getting all our students situated into a new semester at the college, so I'll be pretty busy for the next few weeks. Also I'm taking on heading up a new ministry at my church, called Celebrate Recovery -- because I just don't have enough to keep me busy already (LOL).

Oh, by the way, there's one thing I'm not sure that I've expressed adequately here, which is that I too often end up feeling disappointed, and downright "pissed off" (pardon the slang, but the word "angry" doesn't quite say it as strongly as I sometimes feel it) with individuals who keep the revolving doors in and out of various recovery programs and prisons rolling around.

Truth be told, I find myself in constant need of re-adjusting my own attitude, while working with sick and broken-spirited folks, who continue doing all the things that keep them broken and hurt. But just as a person does not become fully "broken" overnight, so too is healing sometimes a long process.

Did you know that Thomas Edison tried to make that lightbulb shine 999 times before it finally lit up? Then, in an interview shortly afterwards, he was asked how it felt to have failed 999 times. His answer was that he had never failed at all; inventing a working lightbulb was simply a 1000 step process!

We in society have gotten so hung up in the belief that people who commit crimes are inherently "bad," that we lose track of the concept of "human potential" (besides, lets face it, how full do you think our prisons would be if every single person actually got caught when commiting an action that is illegal; there are many, many "law-abiding" citizens who actually are not). I just believe anybody, no matter what they've done, maintains some potential for goodness and the ability to change. so, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

Now, changing the subject completely, I notice some of you have posted about being bitten by "the writing bug" over this past month, so here's a little closing gift, in the form of a link to a site that addresses "writing for healing:"

http://www.learnwell.org/healthscript.htm

It's a free "course," and if you really study it and explore all the info provided in the included links, I think you'll discover it valuable information. I use some of the suggestions from this site when I work with other women.

I guess this is about it for now. Thanks again for the great experience here in S/N. Over the past few days I've recieved some really nice e-mails from you great folks that I've printed out and will keep forever, along with all the other treasures in my "God box" (the one where I keep the tangible evidence of the miracles in my life). God bless you all!

Peace and love, Nancy Birkla

NANCY, you are such a wonderful, giving person. Thank you.

Said with love,

Mal

Thanks so much for that link and for your support of "writing as healing."

I hope you'll check in with us now and again.

Hugs,

Karen

NANCY: one of the saddest things about ending this discussion is not being able to talk to you. You have touched many many lives here. Please keep in touch, and God bless.

Nancy.....the 'revolving door' ones do discourage one, but those who exit that revolving door make it all worthwhile.

Bobbie

Thank you NANCY B. for your time. You have certainly made this discussion something special.

Jerilyn

I definitely agree with all of you that Nancy Birkla has been a BOON here just a gift, both here and in the PBS/ POV discussion, and good grief not to mention Wally Lamb, yesterday during my 10 hour wait for my car to be repaired (it wasn't) I walked to the nearest B&N (3 miles) and there found an entire SHELF devoted to Wally Lamb!!! BIG TIME, big time display of all his books, and when you LOOK at and READ all of the text of the interviews he gave us, the combined remarks are incredible, just unbelievable. We've already used them in two other discussions and will in future, and we're assembling them now for a stand alone Interview Page, but just reading what all he SAID, and when you compare it to other inteviews you find on the internet or in magazines, with big name magazines, and big time celebrity interviewers: to THINK he gave all that to us!

I'm not sure, even to this day that we actually REALIZE what he did. And in gratitude for that and for Nancy B's amazing presence here and Dale's wonderful posts and Nancy Whiteley's gracious and kind appearance, it's....has it only been a month? Like a cruise ship, you think, "I could get used to this? hahahaha" But of course it must end.

Nancy's own contribution here has been incredible, Nancy has become ONE of us, she's been as much a participant as celebrity interviewee, and she's given us SO much information, with lots of things left over we can begin on next week, not in this discussion, alas , but perhaps in one now forming in which all those who asked to be able to help somehow, we hope, will get that chance. I think there is much we can do.

I'll write you next week, All.

We've appreciated Dale's visits, her schedule is quite busy, we wanted to leave this up for any last comments from anybody who would like to make them, our thanks also to Nancy Whiteley, for her marvelous contribution, I've enjoyed this so much, it's hard to even find the words, to adequately say so. And even tho Tabbi did not make it in due to several circimastances, I have really enjoyed corresponding with her!

hahaha I guess I thought by not concluding the discussion it wouldn't have to die, kind of like leaving the Christmas tree up thru April? hahaahah But there may be other ways to keep this in our hearts, I'll leave it open for juusst a few more days till everybody has had a chance to say their last thoughts.

hahahaha and in April... hahaahah no no.

Nancy, my goodness, how exciting your new project sounds, keep us informed? We want to hear all. You are a beacon of light, I''m in "awr" of you, no joke, and Dale's another one, and of course I'm still trying to get over we actually TALKED to Wally Lamb!! Yesterday in the bookstore the clerk said to me when I asked where Couldn't Keep it to Myself was (sold out but they could order me a copy oh or maybe I wanted to wait for the paperback and I said February 3? (thanks to Nancy

and she said, wow you are informed! With some respect? And I wanted to say you don't know the HALF of it, and I did share with her a little bit of our incredible good fortune here and urged the book on her, she looked as if she was not sure if she should believe me or not? hahahaah

Haven't we been blessed? Haven't we been blessed. Makes you want to pass it on, doesn't it? I think we will find a way to do just that!

THANKS to ALL OF YOU! I am so proud of all of our participants here, some of whom were traveling and made the effort to get here, poor Pedln, she was on the road and rushed home for Wally Lam'b second interview only to find they had not finished her floors and so she crawled around on hands and knees assembling the cords so she could get here and JUST missed him he was signing off, some were visited by out of town grandhildren and/or went out of town, many were very sick, some hospitalized, (I'm glad you are feeling better Joan, I wondered what became of you), but ALL of you came with an open mind and tried hard to see each prisoner as a real person, hats off to you! You took on a subject most of us knew nothing about, bravely, in the midst of the glitter and jollity and made a difference, both here and in the PBS/ POV discussion.

I feel so GOOD about this discussion because it's been more than a simple book discussion, our book discussions are always good, but it's been a simply incredible HAPPENING and POTENTIAL to do good, and I think we'll look back on this with amazement and astonishment, and, I hope, with much gratitude. Wow wow wow, and wow. THANK you all.

ginny

Someone asked how I am able to maintain emotional distance so that my feelings don't interfere with my professional and personal life. Well, I'm influenced and affected by the women every day -- I'm not great at emotional distance! That's part of the joy of the job, and, of course, part of the pain. For me, the trade-off is worth it. Wally came today after being absent for about a month (he's been widely busy, as you might imagine). The women flocked around him like children, hoping for his smile and his ear -- which he gives so freely. He shared a bit about the recent happenings in his life (the women hang on his every word), we watched a clip of a video German reporters had taken of the writing group back in August, Wally told us he'd nominated an individual from our group for a writing prize and explained how all that had come about -- he then read us his heartfelt recommendation -- and the women cried. Wally cried; I cried; the Kleenex passed from hand to hand. We were family for a time today; and we shared pride in one another and in ourselves. Then Wally told us he's taking a little break, a time-out to work on his novel and restore himself. A few months without Wally. We cried more. Some of women had written notes to him for the holidays -- the women read their notes to him, thanking him, honoring him, letting him know that their lives had been changed, positively changed, for the better. Saying good-bye, even for a short time, isn't easy for anyone -- for some of the women at the prison, Wally's been the only positive man in their lives. We will all miss him, but, because he's Wally Lamb, we know we'll see him again. Wally's a man of his world --one of the most honorable people I've ever known. While he's working on his novel and tending to his beloved family, we'll keep working on our writing -- using the skills we've learned from Wally and some we've learned on our own. The women know they'll be in his prayers, in his thoughts, and his heart -- and he'll be in theirs. Tonight, like many nights, I think of the faces of the students I love, and I thank my lucky stars to be a small part of their world. I thank all of you for caring about the women of York CI. I hope our paths cross again. Blessings to all.

Someone asked how I am able to maintain emotional distance so that my feelings don't interfere with my professional and personal life. Well, I'm influenced and affected by the women every day -- I'm not great at emotional distance! That's part of the joy of the job, and, of course, part of the pain. For me, the trade-off is worth it. Wally came today after being absent for about a month (he's been widely busy, as you might imagine). The women flocked around him like children, hoping for his smile and his ear -- which he gives so freely. He shared a bit about the recent happenings in his life (the women hang on his every word), we watched a clip of a video German reporters had taken of the writing group back in August, Wally told us he'd nominated an individual from our group for a writing prize and explained how all that had come about -- he then read us his heartfelt recommendation -- and the women cried. Wally cried; I cried; the Kleenex passed from hand to hand. We were family for a time today; and we shared pride in one another and in ourselves.

Then Wally told us he's taking a little break, a time-out to work on his novel and restore himself. A few months without Wally. We cried more. Some of women had written notes to him for the holidays -- the women read their notes to him, thanking him, honoring him, letting him know that their lives had been changed, positively changed, for the better. Saying good-bye, even for a short time, isn't easy for anyone -- for some of the women at the prison, Wally's been the only positive man in their lives. We will all miss him, but, because he's Wally Lamb, we know we'll see him again. Wally's a man of his world --one of the most honorable people I've ever known.

While he's working on his novel and tending to his beloved family, we'll keep working on our writing -- using the skills we've learned from Wally and some we've learned on our own. The women know they'll be in his prayers, in his thoughts, and his heart -- and he'll be in theirs. Tonight, like many nights, I think of the faces of the students I love, and I thank my lucky stars to be a small part of their world. I thank all of you for caring about the women of York CI. I hope our paths cross again. Blessings to all.

Thank You All prisoners and ex-prisoners for what you have done with your thoughts by putting them on paper to share with the World and Know that all involed have opened the eyes of So Many people that have Never even given a thought to people in prison as to how and why we got there as most are busy with there own lives but reading this book has and will make a difference to So many.

Nancy You have given us so much of your time, I feel that we are kindred souls each going our own way, both striving for the same goal and We Shall Make that Goal. Thank You for being My/our friend we have been down the same road and back again.

To the posters in this discussion I apprieciate each and every one of you for caring enough to read this discussion whether or Not you read the "Book that to me should get the Highest Award there ever was or will be" as it is a teaching book to me about human beings from the ditch digger to the Most Powerful human being in this world we are All human beings first. Thank You Posters for sharing.

------

Thank you for being a friend 
Traveled down a road and back again 
Your heart is true, you're a pal and a confidant 

I'm not ashamed to say  
I hope it always will stay this way  
My hat is off, won't you stand up and take a bow 

And if you threw a party  
Invited everyone you knew 
You would see the biggest gift would be from me 
And the card attached would say  

Thank you for being a friend 

If it's a car you lack 
I'd surely buy you a Cadillac 
Whatever you need any time of the day or night 

I'm not ashamed to say  
I hope it always will stay this way 
My hat is off, won't you stand up and take a bow 

And when we both get older 
With walking canes and hair of gray  
Have no fear even though it's hard to hear 
I will stand real close and say 

Thank you for being a friend 

And when we die 
And float away  
Into the night 
The milky way  
You'll hear me call 
As we ascend  
I'll say your name 
Then once again  

Thank you for being a friend

Your S/N family sister, Love to All of you, Ginger

Well, I was truly hoping this day would never come, but it has, and so it's with the greatest reluctance that I bring this discussion to a close.

The only way I am able to do that is to announce the formation of another discussion now in the works soon to appear which will carry on the work and opportunities presented here. Thanks to the requests of the people reading this and the PBS POV discussion to be able to "do something," we will do just that, stay tuned for more information, you'll all be notified of this opportunity.

We started this discussion in November talking about Dickens and A Christmas Carol in Prose. And we likened it to Scrooge waking up Christmas morning, completely changed and his subsequent life of service.

I think that's a good analogy but for some reason this morning I am more reminded of the Ancient Mariner. You recall the Ancient Mariner was compelled to deliver his lesson and chose the wedding guest to hear. After the Mariner left, Coleridge said of the recipient of the information,

A sadder and a wiser man
He rose the morrow morn.

I think we're all sadder and wiser here then we were when we started, and thanks to people like Wally Lamb and Nancy B and Dale and Nancy W, the voices and stories of the prisoners, the PBS Program, and our own participants and their stories and examples: we have, I think, the background, the information, the will and determination, and a start on something we might try to help with: the ball is now in our court. We will not drop it.

What have I learned from this discussion?

From Wally Lamb I have learned about integrity, and since he is not reading this and therefore won't be embarrassed, greatness. Here's a famous author (very) passing thru the National Book Festival, he stops, pleasantly and because he SAID he'd come in, he kept his word. We are nothing to him? WE are only a blip in the world he lives in, if that, but he came anyway, and he elevated us up like he does everybody else, and he gave US an interview that Morey Safer would die for. And he came twice to a live chat, and he did OVER 8 questions whose answers were lost, and he showed us that some people's heads are not turned by fame and that what matters is helping people, the man is a light? He's a light, no joke and since he's not reading this and won't be embarrassed, I will just say he's probably one of the most inspiring people, BECAUSE of his goodness in the midst of fame, I have ever met or read about. And he was here. So I learned what's important, by his own example.

From Nancy Birkla I learned the power of persistence. Note how many times and in how many ways she tried throughout her life. Look at her tireless political activism, her new projects, she's indefatigable and more than that, she's incredibly kind and giving. That taught me that it's not enough to throw down your own hankie of "good works," and then if it doesn't work, to shrug and say, oh well, too much trouble, I'll move on, she taught me to keep trying. One of our newest participants has a quote under her name and it says,

"Courage doesn't always roar. Courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day, saying, "I'll try again tomorrow.'"

And that's what I learned from Nancy, perseverance and courage. And also the sheer joy of being surprised by the gifts of kindness she kept bestowing on us.

From Nancy Whiteley I learned goodness and kindness and trying to understand the other person's point of view, she's gracious, kind and forgiving, that POV thing is something that often troubles me, from her I learned to take a step back and try to understand.

From the women prisoners I learned the commonality of the human experience and emotion and how you can overcome the most horrendous situations possible to find yourself in and that some can do it with a grace which would not be possible for me, it reinforces for me the understanding that we're all family.

From our participants here we heard some heart rending incredibly wrenching stories, but yet we can see you've not only survived you've triumphed and isn't it interesting how interested those with the harshest experiences in the past are the most interested in helping others. I am always inspired by the life experiences and the attitudes here among our posters and members on SeniorNet, and grateful to know you all. Some of our posters here who have not experienced or who have but did not express life traumas, nevertheless showed by their own compassion that they are on a higher plane, I am grateful to ALL of you who posted here and shared your perspectives.

I also need to publically recognize Pat Westerdale, whose art and display/ layout work you can see in the heading, in the countless Questions for the Authors Pages, in the Responses from the Authors, the back pages of Previous Questions HTML pages: her work here has equalled if not surpassed mine and has made the difference in presentation. I have regarded her as the Co-Discussion Leader of this discussion, and want to be sure everybody realizes her own contribution: thanks, Pat!

From Dale Griffith I have learned humility. Dale is possibly the most dazzling person I have ever "met," and she does not know it, but seeks continually to help others through her work. From her example I have learned the value of humility, and she has the rare ability to make everybody cry which she has done almost every time she has posted hahahaha, including her last post when I cried right along reading it. She took the time, on the very day of her great sadness, to come in here and talk to us on our last day: that takes strength and a lot more.

These are simply extraordinary people, how we have cherished every contact with each of them, what an EXTRAORDINARY experience this has been. I can't imagine how it could ever be repeated.

This has not been just a book discussion, "Happening" is not a good enough word for it, it has literally changed and will change others for good, it is a new breed of experience here on SeniorNet and in the Books and I hope fervently it is the beginning of something we can all be proud of. I hope that each of you who took your time to come in here feels it was worth the journey, and I invite you to join with me in carrying this work further.

This discussion is now Read Only and will be placed in our Archives for future reference next week.

Thank you all.

ginny