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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
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SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 1
1. Kim is called "little friend of all the world". What in his circumstances enables him to play this role? What in his character?
2. We see Kim serving two very different masters: Mahbub Ali, the horse-trader and spy, and the unworldly lama. Which do you find more interesting. Which do you think will have more influence on Kim's future (don't answer if you've read the book)? What attracts Kim to each, and each to Kim?
3. The descriptions of India in this section are very vivid. Which scene made the biggest impression on you?
4. There are very few women in Kim's world. What do the few women we see tell us about Kipling's idea of the role of women in India?
5. If you have read some background material, what is the battle for which 8000 British soldiers will be needed?
6. Why do you think this book is so fascinating for children? |
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WELCOME, EVERYONE!
A New Year, and time to take to the road and see where it leads--some of the places will surprise us. Lets sit together and talk about what we've found.
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Finally, it's time to start our journey through India: the sights, the sounds, the smells are already swirling around me. I'm going to see if I can't go at least partway on an elephant (always wanted to ride on an elephant) -- who wants to climb up with me.
But elephant or no, we're going to have a great time in Kipling's India. Come and join us. We can sit around the campfire at night and exchange stories and food.
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And we'll magically have translators so we can understand the gossip as it flows from fire to fire.
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marking
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I am still researching question #5, but if it occurred 30yrs. after the Great Mutiny of 1857, then it was likely either the rescue or subsequent retaliation of the capture of Chitral Fort during a coup in 1895. Chitral was at the time at the border of India, China and Russia. This would have been very fresh in Kipling's mind when he wrote Kim.
http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Asia/Pakistan/North_West_Frontier_Province/Chitral-1316466/Things_To_Do-Chitral-Chitral_Fort-BR-1.html
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Elephants, JOAN? I have read the first few chapters and don't recall reading a thing about elephants; perhaps I am too interested in the characters. You asked which was the most interesting and I am fascinated by the 'lama - the Buddhist monk from far away. Did he come from a monastery? I know he came from a simple life as the story, as I recall, mentions that he slept on the ground and eats very simple foods.
Sounds and sights of India, yes, JOAN.
Is it right, was it right, to "beg" your way on a journey, and a spiritual journey at that? Of course, Christ must have done so numerous times, relying on people, friends, fellow Christians along the way.
It wouldn't do in our America would it?
"Little Friend of the World." KIM He is a 'street-smart" boy - about l3 years of age, don't you think? Having had to make his own way in the world he did it well, didn't he?
There is so much to talk about in the book, and I am looking forward to everyone's posts.
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'Nirad Chaudhuri has said that KIM is the very best picture of India by an English author....'
Was that the roar of Zam-Zammah that I heard at midnight? What a splendid way to begin the discussion of KIM. How nice to have the municipal authorities of Lahore get the discussion underway with such a mighty boom. Or was it the celebrating teenager next door backfiring his hotrod. I like to think it was Kim and his friends who brought the great gun back to life. Let it be the second shot heard round the world.
KIM was my introduction to India so many years ago. What a land of mystery and adventure. I could never decide which of Kims activities fascinated me more...spying for the British, or playing the role of chelah to the peaceful lama.
Have I got the book for you, Joan. After we've travelled India on foot with the lama and Kim, or with the trains which leave the lama a nervous wreck. If it's travel with an elephant, why don't you try Mark Shand's TRAVELS ON MY ELEPHANT: 'an epic journey across the dusty back roads of India.'
Happy New Year everybody. The holiday season was absolutely wild and left me little time to read. But it's over and the armchair beckons. What a way to travel!
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Happy 2010, everyone. Yes, Jonathan: then they moved Zam-Zammah West, I heard it at Midnight, too.
Yes, I HAVE to get that book. ELLA, you're right, none of Kim's fellow travelers seem to have an elephant. Perhaps you have to be royalty to ride on one. I think I'd rather stay by the campfire, with Kim and the lama.
I've brought three different interpreters, to handle the different languages we meet on the way. But mostly, we'll speak "the vernacular". Neither Kipling nor my notes tell us what vernacular that was -- does anyone know?
Fascinating info on the Fort, Fry. That could have been it. What do others think?
You're right,
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Fry: I'm just finishing 1857, after experiencing 1842, so I have that one to look forward to. As we accompany Kim and the lama I am struck by the richness of the spectacle of the road itself. What a venue for people watching! Kipling seems to me to have had a keen ear for the subtleties of the native life in India. As to the questions of the elephants, perhaps they were ted in their geographic distribution, perhaps the more tropical south and east?
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Probably. I'm being like the tourists who go to Alaska and expect to see penguins.
Yes, Kiplings descriptions really give you the sense of this swirling crowds of humanity; all different, yet carried along in a giant stream. That is what I remembered from reading the book years ago.
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I posted this in Non Fiction in answer to a question from Ella and Joan asked me o post it here also.
Mayer, in Tournament of Shadows, points out that Britain's possession of India meant that there was a long, precarious supply chain of men and materials to maintain. Russia's Tsars had been expanding for the preceding fourcenturies at a pace of 55 miles per day or 20,000 miles per year. (Emphasis mine.) Literally a game of King of the Hill whose playing field was the majestic Himalayas. It doesn't take much imagination to understand the attitude of the Raj towards their obviously (in their eyes) inferior lackeys. This polyglot society had developed subtle protocols of interaction that completely confounded the arrogant and unaware White Men. There were enough attrocities on each side in the conflicts which erupted to keep the flames fanned. Reading Hopkirk's The Great Game and Mayer in tandem can be emotionally draining but at the same time it is fascinating and compelling. These are the major elements and completely overshadow the onset of iorganized intelligence gathering which is the theme of Kim but it helps me to understand the political and geographic context before focusing on the human components.
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Ella estimated Kim at about 13 years old. I was thinking a little younger, maybe ten or eleven. I remember he said he was born on the day of the Srinagar earthquake so I looked it up. Seems that area gets a lot of them. Here is a link to some research into historical earthquakes using damage done to the temples in the area. I am betting on the one on May 30, 1885. Oddly, after being rather regular, there is a big gap between 1885 and the one of Oct 2005.
http://cires.colorado.edu/~bilham/KashmirTemples/TemplesofKashmir.html
Ah, I correct myself Ella is right. So he is at least 13.
Had Kim been at all an ordinary boy, he would have carried on the play; but one does not know Lahore city, and least of all the fakirs by the Taksali Gate, for thirteen years without also knowing human nature.
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The lama seems to have come from a Tibetan monastery. You're right, Ella, begging for his food wouldn't do here and now, but it was normal in that time and place. When the lama pulls out his begging bowl, the children nod: "All priests of their acquaintance begged". And Kim seems to be a real expert at cadging food.
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It seems to me that Kim often acts younger than his age--hardly surprising, since he has no one trying to make him grow up.
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Kim, it seems to me, is of necessity a chameleon. The real Kim is unknown even to himself, perhaps. I would have pegged him for 10 also. How doe we know what year this is supposed to be?
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How do we know what year this is supposed to be?
It's hard to pin down. One of my introductions says Kim was born in 1865, which would make it now 1878.
Kipling himself was born in 1865, in India, and spent his early childhood there. He was raised by native nannies, who allowed him a lot of freedom, and took him to places most Europeans didn't go. At this point he spoke Hindustani better than English. It's easy to see Kim as an idealized version of what Kipling himself felt.
Kipling was sent back to England to face the dreariness of a British Public School, where he was unhappy. He returned to India at age 17 as a journalist, and stayed there for 7 years. That's it. The rest of his life was spent elsewhere, and the majority of his writing was based on that dozen or so years experience.
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PatH the timing isn't right historically, but Kipling may have been a little loose with the timeline. If the old soldier was talking to Kim 30yrs after the mutiny (1857) as stated in the story then the conversation would have taken place in 1887. If Kim were born in 1865, then he would have been 22 at the time of the conversation. Having said that, there was an earthquake in Srinagar in 1863 that was felt in Lahore. The earthquake of 1885 would probably also have been felt there as it was a stronger earthquake.
I am going to see if I can find any battles between 1875 and 1890 that might fit with Kim's age if he were born in 1865. Maybe we will get lucky and get a name to hang onto. So far the only name I saw was Macklin which is probably a fictitious name. Google didn't come up with anyone in that time and place by the name. Still trying to get a definitive answer to #5.
I am thinking that today's novelists tend to be more historically accurate than early novelists. Today's writers know their readers can and will check facts. Is that a fair assumption or not?
You know, I don't remember a lama in the old Kim movie. It was so long ago, all I remember is him sneaking around, spying and reporting back to the British troops.
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Frybabe, I'm thinking that Kipling deliberately made the time obscure, and, as you point out, there are fictional characters mixed up with the real.
I hope there actually was a lama in the movie, since half the story is the relationship of Kim and the lama. Guess I'd better see if Netflix has it.
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The curator of the Lahore Museum is a portrait of Kipling's father, who held that post. I tried to find some pictures of the interior of the museum, especially of the Bodhisat that so impressed the lama, but no luck. Here are some exterior pictures, though. It's pretty fancy, and you only see a scrap of it in the picture of Zam-Zammah.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Lahore_Museum (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Lahore_Museum)
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A brief biographical note:
In his book "Baa ,Baa , Blacksheep" Kipling writes of his miserable years from age six to eleven when he was sent with his sister to live with an English woman in England who advertised in an Indian paper so they could get a "proper English education". The woman was a harrion and disliked him intensely. He referred to her home as "The House of Desolation". Even in school he was looked down upon since his eyesight was very bad and no one realized he needed glasses.
Finally in 1877, when he was eleven, his Mother came over from India and found solutions to all the problems and removed the children from their horrible placement. She and her husband spent the rest of their lives trying to make up to the children for the horrible years in "The House of Desolation'.
In later years Kipling wrote in his brief biographical essay, "Something of Myself" that the character of Kim grew like the Djinn released from the brass bottle , and the more we explored its possibilities the more opulence of detail did we discover'
The 'we' refers to his father, with whom he developed a deep bond and who looked over all his sons'writings.
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Lovely pictures, Pat. How impressive it must have been to the lama, who, I believe, was particularly interested in the statutes of Buddha. Impressive indeed, today! Is the lama a true Buddhist? I'm not sure , as he is on a journey to find the "river" which will not only heal but will allow escape from the WHEEL; the wheel from which all are ascending and descending endlessly. This was my impression from the first few chapters I have read.
Being a nonfiction reader, I am truly not aware of the undercurrents in fiction, but, my book has the Introduction to the story of Kim and also a summary of Kipling's life and, as Pat said, he loved the country and, although not living there in his later years, he never lost his nostalgia for the culture and the people.
Also, as I remember reading, Kipling never lost his idea that India should always be under British rule. What would he think today!
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The museum is, indeed, "fancy". Interesting how each picture shows it a completely different color.
The lama is, I'm sure, Kipling's idea of what a true (Tibetan) Buddhist. For those unfamiliar with Buddhism, here's my (semi-ignorant) take on it. Buddhists believe in reincarnation: everything living is born, dies, and id reborn again in an endless cycle. This is the Wheel of Life. How you live each life determines how you will be reborn -- if you've been evil, you may be reborn as a cockroach, and have to work yourself up to being a human.
What binds us to the wheel of life is desire and attachment. If we can free outselves from those, we can free ourselves from the wheel (which is also a wheel of suffering, and attain a higher state of being, not of this Earth. A few individuals, like Buddha, achieved this state, but chose to remain on Earth to show others the way.
The way for us humans to achieve this state is through meditation. Those holy people wishing to do so renounce all worldly goods, except the minemum needed to stay alive (the desire and attachment to worldly goods is one thing that binds us) as well as all attachment to family and friends (another thing that binds us -- later we'll see the lama struggling with that) and spend a life of meditation, either in a hut somewhere, or wandering as our lama is doing. Thus, he is a familiar figure in Buddhist culture.
But our lama is seeking a shortcut. Instead of doing the intense spiritual labor others pursue, he believes he only has to bathe himself in a certain river. I don't know if that's really part of Buddhism, or Kipling's invention; an allegory for something else, perhaps. I haven't finished the book-- perhaps we'll find out
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"He was nearly six feet high, dressed in fold upon fold of dingy stuff like horse-blanketing, and not one fold of it could Kim refer to any known trade or profession. At his belt hung a long open-work iron pencase and a wooden rosary such as holy men wear. On his head was a gigantic sort of tam-o'-shanter. His face was yellow and wrinkled, like that of Fook Shing, the Chinese bootmaker in the bazar. His eyes turned up at the corners and looked lilke little slits of onyx." - (the lama)
JOAN, thanks for your "take" on Buddhism. At one time, a long time ago, I knew a little about this religion. How time erodes!
Yes, yes, reincarnation. That comes up quite early in these first chapters, doesn't it? The lama believes Kim to be a reincarnation sent to him?? - I must revisit the book!
And perhaps we shall find out more about the river???
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23609436
I remembered vaguely the protests of Tibetan monks about a year ago. I copied this paragraph from the above article:
"Beijing maintains that Tibet is historically part of China, but many Tibetans argue the Himalayan region was virtually independent for centuries and accuse China of trying to crush Tibetan culture by swamping it with Han people, the majority Chinese ethnic group.
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Why is Kim called "Little Friend of all the World"? Well, he seems to
be a merry, cheerful young fellow, acting pretty much the same to
everyone he meets. The Asiatic appreciation of the imaginative insult
means that most people find Kim highly amusing.
PATH said, "It seems to me that Kim often acts younger than his age--hardly surprising, since he has no one trying to make him grow up. "
I think this 'Peter Pan' quality is one reason he is so much enjoyed by
children. A sassy hero, young (13 was younger then than it is today),
free to roam as he pleases with little or no adult supervision or interference. The perfect hero!
I would add one important point to Ella's description of Buddhism.
Though detachment from things and the 'illusions' of the world is a key
tenet of Buddhism, one may also 'acquire merit' by kindnesses to one's
fellow men. It can be tricky to concern oneself with another's well-being
without growing attached to them. Remember after 9/11, when the
Buddhist monks came to Washington and created that marvelous mandala? It was their offering for our healing and peace of heart. But
after a certain amount of time, the colored sands were swept up and
discarded in the Potomac, since Buddhists always stress the transitory
nature of all that happens here.
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Filling the beggar's bowl is almost a duty, one way to show kindness and "acquire merit". In that sense the beggar is the donor and the bowl-filler is the recipient of the merit; more so when the beggar is a monk. I have been reding Kim online while reading Mayer and Hopkirk. Seems like i've got the text but am missing some of the flavor so I'll be shopping for my own copy.
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Thank you, Babi and Jackie. Two important aspects of Buddhism I forgot to mention. People are eager to "acquire merit" by feeding the lama. And everything is transitory.
In fact, Buddhists like the lama believe that the world we live in is an illusion. he is always saying that: it's all illusion, they are caught in the illusion etc.. It reminds me of a children's book my kids had (African, not Buddhist). The story began (from memory -- hope I've got it right):
It is not real, it is not real, that which we say today. A story, a story -- let it come, let it go.
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Kim does have a Peter Pan" quality, doesn't he.
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Oh my, this book is bringing up memories of my childhood. I remember distinctly my father bringing home some sugar cane and peeling it back and handing it to my younger sister and I to chew around on. I had never seen sugar cane and was very impressed that sugar came from such a strange source. I also remember going to the zoo in San Antonio, and riding an elephant! I couldn't believe how thick the skin was and the huge hairs growing out of his hide.
I am not remembering much about the book. Reading it now as an adult, I must have skipped over much of the book that I didn't understand. I think I envied Kim because he had great adventures, was self sufficient and didn't have parents to answer to! I also have the impression that Kim was around 13 yrs old. Babi, I think 13 years old back then was older than 13 years today (although, perhaps less "worldly"). Girls/women were frequently married off by then and running their own households.
I am getting a little bogged down with all the footnotes. I am trying to ignore them and continue with the story, but.....
Is any one else having trouble with this?
Sally
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Read the footnotes if they help and ignore them if they don't. My book footnotes every placename, but the footnote reads something like "town 50 miles from --"some other place that I don't know where is. So I stopped reading them.
Pat is still looking for a map with the old names on it. But what it boils down to is that there are people on the road from every place in India or Pakistan-- some from Afghanistan or Tibet.
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Salan, your comment about the sugar cane got me to wondering about where sugar cane originated. Here is an history I found has some interesting bits about sugar cane in India. They say it originated in New Guinea, another site I looked at said the Bay of Bengal. I like the bit about the cows.
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/sugar_cane_history.html
Kim certainly is full of himself isn't he. Supremely confident.
I am beginning to wonder if I actually did see the movie or confusing it with Gunga Din or the Shirley Temple movie set in India (there was one wasn't there?).
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I had to visit here to see where everyone is ..I have read everything from beginning where it tells of Kipling etc and then reached the story but the foot notes are a distraction to me and sort of leads me away from the story SO now that I have read where you are I will read a bit differently ,,,I wondered if I had read the book but am sure now this is a first for me..back when I have read ...best, anna
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Here is a readers guide entry concerning the Colonel Creighton character who shows up later in the book and whose name I got from the movie site. (I am still puzzling over #5.) There were a lot of small "punitive" campaigns in the 1870's and 1880's including the Chitral campaign I mentioned before. The author of this article speculates that Colonel Creighton may have been based on Lieut.-Col. Alexander Herbert Mason who had orders for Chitral but ended up with Typhoid Fever.
http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_kim_notes9_creighton.htm
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Yes, SALLY, that is what I meant about 13 being 'younger', then. Even
between our generation and that of our grandkids, I can see such a
difference. We were so much more innocent.
It occurs to me, FRYBABE, that since this insurrection was discovered
early on and quickly squelched, it might not have made the history books.
Just a minor 'dust-up'. It could very well have been one of your "small
punitive campaigns'.
I was intrigued by the 'prophecy' from Kim's dad. I couldn’t find any god in Hindu mythology that was represented by a red bull on a green field. Since a British colonel was also to appear, I looked for a British military flag with that insignia, but found nothing there, either. Ah, well, I'm sure
we'll find out soon enough.
Kim’s playmates reflect the different cultures of India.The ‘Musselman’ boy and Chota Lal, whose father was "worth perhaps half a million sterling”. And this kid was running loose in the market place?
Says Kipling, “..but India is the only democratic land in the world.” Interesting statement. Any comments on that?
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Good morning - (posting together, Babi...)
Checking in from frosty Memphis - here on the last of Santa's delivery leg - home again late tomorrow night to recover.
I'm finding little to no time to post in here - motel allows ten minutes. I have been reading the first chapters - and scan through your posts when I first get in here.
Did you notice yesterday's headlines - the 88 civilians who were killed in a terrorist bombing at a volleyball game - in PESHAWAR? Kipling describes this as "an insalubrious city" - it was or is located in one of those regions on the way to Lehore. Talk about topical!
I'm looking forward to locating a map when I get home...
Happy 2010 everyone!
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Frybabe, thanks for the article on a possible origin for Colonel Creighton. Creighton has already appeared briefly in chapter 2--he's the officer to whom Kim gives the "pedigree of the white stallion" but we'll see a lot more of him later.
Did you notice in that article Mason says that Kipling became a Freemason in order to have an "in" with people he otherwise wouldn't meet? Kim's father was a Freemason. One of the 3 papers in Kim's amulet is his father's certificate. (This isn't obvious except from a footnote, but we see it later).
I didn't mean to cause so much grief with question 5; I thought it would be easier than it turns out to be.
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"Filling the beggar's bowl is almost a duty, one way to show kindness and "acquire merit". In that sense the beggar is the donor and the bowl-filler is the recipient of the merit" - jackie
Thanks for that observation, helps to understand the monk's journey.
Life is an illusion, the world we live in is an illusion. How interesting that is! Is that a belief of all buddhists?
My book has notes at the end of the book (notes on pages.....) and I find that satisfactory. I began looking up every footnote while reading and then decided that I would not enjoy the story that way.
The red bull on the green field, a prophecy Kim's father used to declare in his opium hours, part of the things that would make Kim a man, together with 900 first-class devils. (a drunken dream of his father's)
Speaking of which (Kim's father) two of the documents he left Kim related to the Masonic lodge. (Kipling was a Mason, he loved the fellowship of men which the lodge provided).
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Years, and years ago, I went to Costa Rica and being much younger and adventurous, we went on a raft trip down a very treachurous river, and stopping at one calm place on the river our guide found some sugar cane in a nearby field and we chewed it. What a good memory that is. A lovely trip.
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I didn't mean to cause so much grief with question 5; I thought it would be easier than it turns out to be.
Not to worry Pat, it's a puzzle I feel like trying to solve when I have a minute or two. I have been trying to correlate Kim's birth with one of the Srinagar earthquakes, the old soldier's statement that the mutiny was 30yrs ago (The Great Mutiny was in 1857) and any campaigns around the 1887 date. But like I said, Kipling may have mixed things up a bit skewing a literal timeline. Waiting for more information, but it looks like most or all of the characters are ficticious.
I've enjoyed Kim's description of the peoples he meets along the Grand Truck Highway.
Democratic? I don't think so. If democracy means social equality or majority rule. India certainly didn't fit the bill back then. Not with the inherited aristocracy, British rule and the caste system.
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Women in the book? Very few. At the beginning a prostitute called Flower of Delight.
Appropriate?
Later there is this, and I quote:
"Nowadays, well-educated natives are of opinion that when their womenfolk travel, and they visit a good deal, it is better to take them quickly by rail in a properly screened compartment."
Paraphrasing: the old women, being withered and undesirable, do not object to removing the veil!
And then Kim meets up with an old women who definitely has a few things to say.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 1
1. Kim is called "little friend of all the world". What in his circumstances enables him to play this role? What in his character?
2. We see Kim serving two very different masters: Mahbub Ali, the horse-trader and spy, and the unworldly lama. Which do you find more interesting. Which do you think will have more influence on Kim's future (don't answer if you've read the book)? What attracts Kim to each, and each to Kim?
3. The descriptions of India in this section are very vivid. Which scene made the biggest impression on you?
4. There are very few women in Kim's world. What do the few women we see tell us about Kipling's idea of the role of women in India?
5. If you have read some background material, what is the battle for which 8000 British soldiers will be needed?
6. Why do you think this book is so fascinating for children? |
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FRYBABE: two very interesting links. Thanks. My tired old eyes didn't like the small print, but I read some, and will finish later. Sugar certainly had an interesting history, but I didn't get to the cows.
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I don't know if the commentator identified Colenal Creighton correctly, but it's absolutely fascinating to think that:
"Its opening scene must have met Kipling's eyes as soon as he reached Lahore in 1882 and the draft was not finished until 1900; ...
"Again one must imagine the young Rudyard there outside the Museum watching the children playing in the dust in the sun beside the gun. He was facing his first job in a month's time when he had to enter the Printing Office and there was his writing, always wanting expression. His interest lay, in both senses of the word, in making friends and finding his way about. He must learn to talk to all sorts of men, if he was to write all sorts of news and stories. Where should he begin?" Brigadier Alexander Mason, M.C.
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http://www.siamstamp.com/catalogue/index.php?id=889
a bodhisat on a stamp
beautiful
I like Kim because he does help the lama.
never read this before
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That's a gorgeous stamp, Bluebird. I'm glad you're enjoying Kim.
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little friend of the world
Kim is a friend of all
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A beautiful stamp, bluebird.
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Joan, it is the caption below the picture of a book that reads "In the 1400s and 1500s in India, cows belonging to the Sultan of Mandu were fed sugar cane for weeks to make their milk sweet for use in puddings."
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Another woman mentioned is Kim's foster mother--a drug addict. Also the woman who ran the food stall with her husband sleeping in the back and who filled the monk's begging bowl when Kim was kind enough to kick the bull (?) on the nose to make it stop eating the displayed onions.
Is it mentioned in these four chapters that his mother was an Irish nursemaid?
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Is it mentioned in these four chapters that his mother was an Irish nursemaid?
Yes. Glad you brought it up, because it's a good question whether Kim's social class matters. In chapter 1--"...his mother had been a nursemaid in a colonel's family and had married Kimball O'Hara, a young colour-sergeant of the Mavericks, an Irish regiment". So he's definitely lower class, but he's also English, which maybe trumps all.
Thank goodness I live in a time where that's not so important.
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There were other women on the road:
"(p.63-4 Barnes and Noble) ...a gang of changars-the women who have taken all the embankments of all the Northern railways under their charge-- a flatfooted big-bosomed strong-limbed blue-petticoatedclan of earth-carriers hurrying North on news of a job .... They belong to the caste where men do not count, and they walk with aquared elbows,swinging hips, and heads on high...
A little later a marriage procession'... the brides litter staggering through the haze...jokes, wishing the couple a hundred sons and no daughters.....
a woman who tied goats horns to her feet and with these danced on a slackrope, set the horses to shying and the women to shrill, long-drawn quavers of amazement".
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Democratic? I don't think so. If democracy means social equality or majority rule. India certainly didn't fit the bill back then. Not with
the inherited aristocracy, British rule and the caste system.
That was my thought, too, FRYBABE. The govenment certainly wasn't a
democracy, either. So ruling out the social system and the form of
government, I'm hard put to guess what Kipling meant by his statement.
At Kim's age, yes, I suppose he and his playmates rubbed shoulders
together on a basis of equality. But that hardly applies to India as a
whole.
I'm looking at Kim's first meeting with the lama. Kim is astonished when he realizes the old man speaks the truth. That is not the custom among the natives where Kim lives. He decides to be the old mans ‘chela’, his servant/disciple. “I think that so old a man as thou, speaking truth to chance-met people at dusk, is in great need of a disciple.” Young
Kim is wiser in the ways of the world than the old priest. .
Kim says of 'his' lama, "He is a holy man. In truth, and in act. He is not like the others.” Most of the ‘holy men’ Kim has known are ‘fortunetellers, or jugglers, or beggars’. He, the 13-yr-old, feels
protective of the old priest. The boy has a good heart.
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It's interesting that almost everyone who meets the lama is so impressed with his goodness and holiness. His character must really shine out.
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Part of the lama's attraction is that he is from Tibet. I can't locate my Hopkirk right now but he explains some of the reputation Tibet had at the time when he recounts the result of its penetration by two "agents" of britain who were involved in the map-making effort. After their perfidiy was discovered those Tibetans who had hosted the travelers were stripped of their possessions, imprisoned, executed. It opened my eyes to the true import of the "news" that Sherlock Holmes had spent three years in Tibet after his supposed death at Reichenbach Falls. ;)
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Have any of you read the book "Seven Years in Tibet"? It was made into a movie, which I haven't seen. It is non-fiction, written by a German who was in India when WWII broke out and was imprisoned. He escaped prison and, in order to escape went over the mountains to Tibet. He wound up as a tutor to the Dalai Lama (the current one, then a young boy) and accompanied him when he fled the invasion of Tibet by the Chinese. It's well written and I found it fascinating.
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Years ago JeanK, and then I sent it down to my Dad for him to read. Quite interesting. I thought it was an odd book to try and make into a movie, but it worked.
Two other books in the general area but of more modern times (1960-1980ish) that I read were Peter Matthiessen's The Snow Leopard and George Schaller's Stones of Silence: Journeys in the Himalaya. Matthiessen accompanied Schaller when he was studying Snow Leopards in Nepal. Schaller's book is mostly set in Pakistani areas and involved his studies of the goats, sheep and a critter that is considered a combo of the two. Both have lots of info about the area and peoples they met along the way. I have no clue where my copies disappeared to. Matthiessen's book is written from a more introspective and personal view.
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I just finished "The White Tiger" by Adiga, a novel about present day India; one of the main themes is that nothing is different for the poor; they are horribly oppressed by rich Indians--the forms of democracy are a fraud for the under class. An excellent story about an extremely poor Indian who became a modern entrep.....too lazy to look it up-----business man (murderer).
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Some great books on India that I have read are the following:
Siddhartha by Herman Hesse-About the founder of Buddhism.
The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy- (Won the Booker Prize) -Fraternal twins separated for 23 years meet again. Set in Southern India.
A Passage to India by E.M.Foster (A novel and an outstanding movie)-Anglo-Indian relations under colonial rule.
A Fine Balance byRohinton Mistry--Four people from different walks of life struggle to survive when Indira Gandhi declared a state of emergency (1975-76) and imprisoned her oppponents. This is a magnificent book that broke my heart reading of the horrors Gandhi imposed on the poor people of her country.
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Jude, A Fine Balance was a book that left a lasting impression on me. It opened my eyes to many things I was not aware of (or didn't think about them, anyway). I saw a whole new side of Indiri Gandhi and I will never look at goods manufactured in India in the same way! Years later, portions of that book are still imprinted strongly in my mind. That, IMO, is what makes a GOOD book.
I have Siddhartha in my tbr pile.
Sally
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I occasionally read lines in Kim that seem to reflect some of the prejudices of the times, or perhaps of Kipling. It might be interesting to
watch for them. Here's a rather innocuous one:
“No amount of native training can quench the white man’s horror of serpents.”
Whenever I see the phrase 'white man', I suspect I will find such a statement.
Phrases that I like: from the old soldier, advising against the rebellion, “Abide a little and the wind turns. There is no blessing in this work.”
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Babi: The snake reference rang true with me, can't abide them. Folklore has it that there are no snakes in Ireland and many of "the other ranks", what we would call enlisted men, were Irish, I believe. Could explain the snake phobia. Does England have snakes? Could just be the white man's need to dominate Nature.
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Thinking about Tibet reminds me that at the time "Seven Years" was written, (WWII) Tibet was a closed society. Foreignors were not allowed in (the author managed to be an exception) and Tibetans didn't leave. If that was true in Kim's time as well, the lama would, indeed, have been a curiosity.
I've read the first three of the books you mention, but not the fourth. Siddhartha is not really about India, but rather about Buddhism. Interestingly, while Buddhism was founded in India, and exists there, it has never been as popular there as in China and other Eastern countries.
We also read here in Seniornet a book describing India during the period of independence and partition: I don't remember it's name, but the horrible events that accompanied partition will remain with me forever.
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We have talked about the lama. But what about Kim's other master, the muslem horse trader. The two couldn't be more different. What is it in Kim that attracts him to each of them. What is Kipling saying about India in these two characters?
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I occasionally read lines in Kim that seem to reflect some of the prejudices of the times, or perhaps of Kipling. It might be interesting to
watch for them. Here's a rather innocuous one:
“No amount of native training can quench the white man’s horror of serpents.”
Whenever I see the phrase 'white man', I suspect I will find such a statement.
I particularly like that, Babi. I'll watch out for "white man".
I read somewhere that fear of serpents is one of the most ingrained of human fears. I'm betting that Indians also fear serpents, but know better when they might or might not be dangerous, so seem less fearful to the "white man".
Kipling was full of the prejudices of his time and class, and although he was probably better than most of his contemporaries, and had a real sympathy for the Indian culture, some of his notions are pretty unforgivable now. He's definitely a writer who has to be taken in context.
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Pat-
I have the complete poems of Kipling. though he was a man of his time (as we all are), he saw things other people didn't think about let alone see.
Remember the famous "Charge of the Light Brigade" that we all learned as children? Well Kipling wrote about "The Last of the Light Brigade". Here are a few lines from that poem:
There were thirty million English who talked of England's might,
There were twenty broken troopers who lacked a bed for the night.
They had no food nor money, they had neither service or trade;
They were only shiftless soldiers, the last of the Light Brigade.
(I jump the next seven verses)
O thirty million English that babble of England's might,
Behold there are twenty heroes who lack their food tonight;
Our children's children are lisping to "honor the charge they made-"
And we leave to the streets and the workhouse the charge of the Light Brigade.
(1891)
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Good morning! I'm playing catch-up this morning - and really enjoying the information and insights you have been providing in your posts! The book I am reading has no footnotes. I had planned to read the book for the adventure and not be distracted by the references. Silly me! How can one read this book without wanting to know more - about just about everything?
So Kipling was born in India - was a journalist in Lahore. Won the Nobel Prize... The man wrote about what he knew. Ella, lover of non-fiction - understandably you are finding much here to satisfy your tastes.
I spent some time studying the area of that "insalubrious city" of Lahore, PatH - you can enlarge this 1882 map if you love maps the way I do -
http://lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/india_1882.jpg
I love your descriptions of Kim - In some ways I see a resemblance between Kim and Kipling himself, do you?
Jackie, I think it was you who referred to him as a chameleon. That is so apt! He seems to have the looks, the command of the language - even a trunk of costumes -
His father was an Irishman - it is the mother I cannot not picture. She was a maid - but not necessarily Irish as some have assumed. I see her as darker complexioned - which would allow Kim yet another opportunity to play the chameleon.
JoanK - I was quite interested in your question regarding Kim's "other master." I hadn't thought of Mahbub Ali as his master before. Mahbub is much like Kim - or perhaps the other way around. Both see opportunity and take advantage of it. Their interest in one another seems purely "self-interest."
The "other master" would be the lama. The exact opposite. Self-interest is non-existant. Kim has never met anyone like him before - and is genuinely attracted to this good man. Will he eventually have to choose between the two?
I need time to catch up with you all. Please excuse long post. Don't know how else to start.
ps. Jude - it is so good to have you back in our midst! Indeed, Kipling saw things that most people miss. Perhaps another way that his Kim is Kipling...
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The Muslim horse trader offers Kim both adventure and pay, a most
enticing combination. Add to that the respect that comes with knowing
someone will have your hide if you speak out of turn, and you have a
pretty strong bond.
The Lama is quite different. At first, Kim feels the old man needs
someone to look after him. He feels protective. We all know how strong
a bond can be with those who need us. Kim comes to love the old man's
goodness and integrity. I don't know what, if anything, Kipling is
saying about India here, but it does illustrate the things that capture
a child's imagination.
JUDE, I hope Kipling's poem about the remnants of the Light Brigade did
some good when it appeared. There was nothing 'glorious' about that
tragedy, and it's shameful that the veterans were left in such neglect.
JOAN, I was surprised to see Lahor referred to as an 'industrial' city.
Between factories and trains, I've had to adjust my image of the India
of those days. And the Grand Trunk Road: “It runs straight, bearing without crowding India’s traffic for fifteen hundred mile----such a river of life as nowhere else exists in the world.” What a stirring image.
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When I read Kipling's description of the "insalubrious" city of Lahore, I had difficulty deciding whether he was referring to it as "unhealthy" - or morally "unwholesome." Perhaps he meant insalubrious to describe the city as both unhealthy and unwholesome. Remember K. lived and worked in Lahore - he'd know the city well.
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Jude, that poem could be an ongoing and current social commentary on how veterans are treated. There always seems to be a shortfall it comes to treating vets. Still, we do a lot better than the way it used to be.
I visited a veterans hospital back in the 80s when my stepfather-in-law was hospitalized. It seemed no more than a holding pen. They were very short staffed. One of the nurses told me that they couldn't help out one without helping the others equally (accusations of favoritism and all that). Still, we do a lot better than the way it was in Kipling's day. I wonder if there is an history somewhere of how veterans benefits have come about and progressed. I suspect that private organizations were in the forefront with governments dragging their feet somewhat.
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The only way I can make sense of this book is to STOP READING THE COMMENTS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGES..so last night I started over and am now engrossed with the story ..reading your posts helps I think my mind is reluctant to grasp what I am reading...I have to go out and hate the thought .,..I think what I want is to just snuggle in some very cozy nook and read my book ...anna alas
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I see Kim and Mahbub as two people who share a secret and therefore can appreciate one another all the more in recognition of their worth in fooling everyone else. Mahbub sees the real Kim, sees beneath the facade he presents to the rest of the world.
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JOANP: "Will he eventually have to choose between the two?"
Wonderful question! And you may have found the map we've been looking for.
JUDE: thank you for finding that poem. Yes, Kipling did see a lot, and cared about what he saw. Would that were true of more people. But like all of us, he was limited in his sight by the time he lived in. I wonder what people 100 years from now will look back and say "Why didn't they see that?"
FRYBABE: I used to work at Walter Reed. All the military who worked there said they would never go there if they had a choice.
ANNA: the same thing happened to me. At first, I thought the footnotes were a help. Then I realized they were keeping me from seeing the picture Kipling is painting of the swirling moving life of India.
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Does tomorrow end our 1st week, chapters 1-4. When does week 2 begin and what chapters will we cover?? I am going to try to skip over all the footnotes and get on with the story.
Sally
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And here I thought Walter Reed was a cut above the rest, JoanK.
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I mentioned this earlier but it may bear repeating. For text only the online versions work very well (see heading).
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Annie Shott--Kim's mother. Google says that Shott is an English name, topographic name for someone who lived by a projecting piece of land, Old English for sceat or a steep slope.
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SALEN: no, we stuck an extra day onto the first week, to allow for people being busy New Years. Next week starts Saturday, the ninth. We'll cover Ch. 5-8. When in doubt, check the schedule in the heading.
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Kim's mother was indeed Irish. In chapter 1, as the lama leaves the museum and Kim follows, "The Lama was his trove and he purposed to take possession. Kim's mother had been Irish too,"
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Mahbub Ali, the horse trader, may not be as lovable as the lama, but he certainly is striking--tall, fierce, and burly with a bright red dyed beard. I like to think of it as very curly, though I don't remember if Kipling says.
According to Hopkirk, there really was a Mahbub Ali, known to Kipling. He had made Afghanistan too hot to hold him during the first afghan war, and had set up horse trading with his sons in the location described in "Kim".
In the 1950 movie (I haven't seen it) he is played by Errol Flynn! What do you think of that for casting?
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My book has no footnotes but each chapter starts with part of a poem by Kipling which is a nice touch. It is a Bantam edition from 2007. Here and there the fellow who wrote the intro translates an utterly incomprehensible expression in the text itself. This is helpful and doesn't take away from the story.
Since Kipling wrote nigh onto 500 poems , Morton Cohen the man who wrote the introduction to the book, had lots of choices to make when choosing the introductory lines. He has a good sense of humor as well and slyly hints at what may be happening in the chapter.
Here is his choice for chap. four:
Good luck she is never a lady
But the cursedest Queen alive.
Tricky, wincing and jady-
Kittle to lead or drive.
Greet her- she's hailing a stranger!
Meet her- she's busking to leave!
Let her alone for a shrew to the bone
And the hussy comes plucking your sleeve!
Largesse! Largesse!,O Fortune!
Give or hold at your will
If I 've no care for Fortune
Fortune must follow me still!
THE WISHING CAPS
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 2
1. "It is no small thing to make a child" says the lama. In this section of the book, many people are struggling for control of Kim's future development. Looking at each one in turn, what is each trying to do? What would be the result if they have their way? Do you think any of them will get their way?
Mr. Bennett
Father Victor
The lama
Mahbub Ali
Creighton
Kim
2. In these chapters, Kim’s life changes dramatically. Does Kim also change? If so, how? What do you think of this turn of events?
3. In this section, Kipling portrays Englishmen (and boys) as well as Indians. What do you think of that portrayal? What attitudes do they show?
4. When Mahbub Ali and Kim meet Creighton, Ali makes fun of Kim’s coming school experience and past message-carrying. What is he really doing here?
5. When Kim arrives at St. Xavier’s School, he is met by the lama. What is the nature of the emotional conflict the lama is suffering here?
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PatH, I think it's marvelous casting. I don't remember the movie, but
you could hardly do better than Flynn for a daring rogue.
I didn't realize someone else had chosen the poems, JUDE. Mr. Cohen
really did an excellent job of it. There were one or two that puzzled me.
Perhaps we can figure them out when we get to them.
I found another line that made me pause and try to imagine it.
“..that indescribable gait of the long-distance tramp all over the world”. I’m trying, without success, to visualize that gait. I guess
I just haven't done enough walking. 'The little tramp' sprang to mind, but
I really don't think Chaplin's waddle qualifies. ;)
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Babi, you gave my morning chuckle, imagining hordes of pilgrims and beggars waddling across India like Charlie Chaplin. I agree, it has to be something different--maybe a sort of swinging long-legged stride?
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Don't know about anyone else but I am having trouble reading this book. There is so much information crammed into a paragraph. Do children read a different version?
Met two people from India over the holidays. They have lived in the U.S. for several years. Neither had heard of "The Raj" or "Kim."
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KIDSAL: I had that trouble at first, too. It almost seems as if there are two ways of reading this book. If you care about all of the names, it's impossible. But there's a flow to it. If you can let all the people and scenes flow past you, like a movie or a painting, then it's wonderful.
I tried to read it several years ago, the first way, and it just gave me a headache. I had to stop. Now, I'm just letting his scenes flow past me, and enjoying it. I don't know how to get into this second mode.
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I'm trying to make up my mind if this is akin to "Man of LaMoncha" (oh my gosh, what's his name?- the guy looking at the windmills?) or is it closer to The Cantebury Tales?
We keep adding to our cast of characters with each new chapter.
What a little devil this kid is; you have to love him for his wily, cunning ways. Like all survivors, he changes like a chameleon, doesn't he? He absorbs the individual mortal of the day ("de jour") right down to the inflection of their speech and their mores.
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I suppose you're thinking of Don Quixote, ALF, but I can't see any
comparison myself. From a youngster's point of view, especially, it's
closer to Peter Pan and Huckleberry Finn. Freedom, adventure and excitement!
It's Kim's chameleon changes that make him so valuable to the
players in 'the Game'. He's a natural.
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Kim is indeed a natural. He may be one of those young geniuses who are entered in university at age ll, or a natural actor who could win an Oscar at his first outing. When these talented people are let loose amoung us without being properly catagorized (scholar, actor) they send our heads spinning and we don't know whether we're coming or going.
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Alf and Babi, IMO it's both.
Kim and the lama are definitely like Sancho Panza and Don Quixote in one way. We have a very high-minded idealist, oblivious to some aspects of the real world, supported on his quest by a devoted worldly-wise person who keeps him out of trouble. But Cervantes laughs at both his heroes, and makes them both the victims of cruel slapstick jokes. Kipling only makes the gentlest of jokes against the lama, and Kim, as a sahib-to-be, is not made to seem foolish.
And Kim is a lot like Peter Pan and Huckleberry Finn, emotionally immature, but clever and knowing and ready for anything interesting.
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Elizabeth, we were posting at the same time. Yes, Kim has got to be extremely bright. It will be interesting to see what use he makes of his abilities.
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Babi - as soon as I came to the description of the lama's gait - "he moved with long, easy camel-like strides"-
I wondered where you saw him "waddle." I was moved to look up the camel's gait -
found this -
http://www.brookfieldzoo.org/czs/Brookfield/Exhibit-and-Animal-Guide/Hoofed-Animals/Bactrian-Camel.aspx
I also watched this video of the camel's gait - you might enjoy watching the knee action -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkfBtNsKtHg
A pretty good stride for an old man, no? How old do you think he is?
His rosary got my attention too - 81 beads. It seems that Kipling is making a point of drawing our attention to it. I'm curious to learn more about it - will be back in a moment.
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Great Camel Walk! Thank you.
Lovely to see you back here, Persian Mahlia.
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Elizabeth, I agree, Kim is smart - probably smarter than he knows. But maybe not as smart as the priest and others are perceiving him to be. Do you think he has special powers? Or is he making the most of every bit of information that he has gathered. I think it would be sad if this all goes to his head and he starts believing his own stories he is weaving. In fact though, the stories he is weaving are based on some fact - and probably more truth than not.
There probably will be a war. Well, not "war" - but rather "punishment" - the term Kim heard the commander use. I'm wondering if this is the "punishment" he hears the priest discussing - for the murder of the women and children? This would explain the distinction being made between war and punishment - whether or not you agree with it. I find I know nothing of either of these wars. Do the footnotes reveal anything more than what we are reading in the text?
The lama believes that killing others is wrong - a true pacifist in this violent society. Is this because he is not of this society that he is so different. No wonder Kim keeps saying that he never met anyone like him. The priest was certainly not the spiritual leader that the lama is. Kim knows this - wasn't he wise to take the money from the lama until morning - knowing that the priest was going to rob him. Imagine that - wasting good opium to steal the lama's purse!
Kipling doesn't think much of these priests - or the police either. I did notice that the women are always kind to Kim and the lama - no matter what caste/class they are from. Kipling goes easy on them, while other groups feel his sting.
Here's something on the rosary the lama recites - a spiritual mantra to overcome the evils and distraction of the world -
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/ChaoZhu.JPG/180px-ChaoZhu.JPG)
More information of the rosary - the number of beads always divisible by nine -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_prayer_beads
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JoanP, that's an amazing video--thanks. I can hardly wait to see JoanK's reaction. She acquired some strong feelings (mostly negative) about camels while living in Israel. They seem to throw their knees outward in a way that would send me to an orthopedic surgeon and looks pretty improbable for man or beast.
I missed the "camel-like strides", but that solves Babi's dilemma, not knowing how tramps walk, certain that Chaplin would be wrong:
I found another line that made me pause and try to imagine it.
“..that indescribable gait of the long-distance tramp all over the world”. I’m trying, without success, to visualize that gait. I guess
I just haven't done enough walking. 'The little tramp' sprang to mind, but
I really don't think Chaplin's waddle qualifies. ;)
We'll never know if the lama's knees wobbled outwards under his "fold upon fold of dingy stuff like horse-blanketing".
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In Hopkirk, the rosaries were used as both part of the disguise for the surveyors garbed as priests or lamas, and as a tool for measuring, counting their paces.
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Yes, Jackie, and we'll see that here too later. Any normal activity might be used.
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There must be camels in the air today. I was trying to give an imitation of their haughty stare to a friend this morning. And now, we have their walk. Hilarious!
I was explaining to my friend how camels did me out of a job once. I was in Israel, in Beer Sheva, a small town in the dessert that looked a lot like a wild west town (it's a lot shickier now). There were even hitching posts on some of the streets. But they weren't for horses. On market days, the Beduins would come to town and hitch their camels to them while they shopped.
I had been a computer programmer in the states (this was in the early 60s, back when computers meant big mainframes that used IBM cards). There was an IBM office, believe it or not, in Beer Sheva, and I thought I would apply for a job. It was a small office, in the old town, that used IBM card sorters.
When I asked about a job, the manager explained that there was one of these hitching posts outside the office. The problem was that there was something in the IBM cards that affected camels the way catnip affects cats. He thought it was the ink. When hitched outside, they would go crazy. Every once in awhile, one would break lose and crash into the office, looking for IBM cards to eat. If I got the job, one of my duties would be to subdue these wild camels.
Needless to say, that killed any interest I had in working there. I wound up teaching English, far away from camels. But since then, I've never cared for camels.
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The prayer beads are, indeed, used exactly the way that Catholics use the rosary; the prayers are different, of course.
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I'm not sure I want to think what it would do to one's spiritual health to use prayer beads as a surveyor-spy.
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JOANK: That's a fascinating - funny - story of your stay in Israel and the experience with camels! How long did you teach there?
The lama is so naive isn't he? Of course, coming from a monastery (I presume?) in the mountains he would hever have seen the sights of the city, soldiers, etc. A couple of interesting sentences:
"The talk of white men is wholly lacking in dignity, said the lama."
"never speak to a white man till he is fed, said Kim"
As JoanP said the lama is constantly pulling out his beads and saying his prayers.
A question comes to mind. Christians have their churches, Muslims their mosques, Buddhists???? Do they have organized religion in a building? I'll look it up.
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Well, it's complicated:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism
Am I correct in thinking that the lama in our story believes Kim was sent to him and is a reincarnation? Not having read the text for a few days I'm not sure of my facts.
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Wouldn't it be something if the lama turns out to be the biggest spy of all with his strange clothing and accoutrements? Walking the length and breadth of India not seeing anything, as we are being constantly told. And yet everybody is eager to confide in him. Witness the elderly lady in 'the family bullock cart, with a broidered canopy of two domes, like a double-humped camel.'
What brought the old lama down from his mountain-top monastery? What excuse does the old lady have for her long journey? Doing a pilgrimage...both of them. Isn't she a character?
"An increasing cackle of complaints, orders, and jests, and what to a European would have been bad language, came from behind the curtains.' Then again, we are told that the company of the lama gets her crying.
The verses at the head of the chapter are puzzling. Especially those leading off Chapter 4, with their talk of Good Luck, and Fortune. That seems so Western. Kipling has the everyday life of India heavily attuned to the blessings and/or curses of the holy men wandering about everywhere. How about the irate farmer who finds Kim and the Lama tramping across his fields? To take a closer look at a man-made irrigation ditch. He directs the two happy wanderers to the little runlet, where we meet the cobra that strikes horror into a white man's heart.
This little incident is vividly depicted in the movie, and goes a long way in answering Question Six. Kim is wowed. His lama is a snake charmer. The book adds another aspect to this. While Kim is concerned about the snake's venom, the lama sees the humbling incarnation: 'Great evil must the soul have done that is cast into this shape.' This seems judgmental to me. On the other hand, the white man is not afraid of lions. Not if he has read his bible.
Isn't young Kim a clever, streetwise kid. Even has a remedy for an opium hangover! But just like the lama wanting to come down from the mountain-top, so was Kim, eager to get away from Lahore. One seeking truth, the other adventure.
Errol Flynn is great as Mahbub Ali. His name is sung out as MahBOOBalee, with the accent on the second syllable
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The lama seems to believe that Kim was sent to him. In his belief, we are all incarnations, but I don't think there is anything more specific here.
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Yes, Ella, I think you are correct. And I think the lama already has Kim believing it. From Friend of all the World, he has grown to the Friend of the Stars. With prophetic powers. There may be windmills for both of them.
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Jonathan, you were posting while I was. I guess you've actually watched the movie, while I've only seen the trailer on IMDB. How does it seem? Errol Flynn is magnificent, but he isn't quite the person described by the Flower of Delight (after searching him when he is in a real or pretended alcoholic stupor) as "a pig of an Afghan horse dealer".
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In answer to Question 6. Why is the book so attractive to children?
A young orphan boy succeeds in the world on his own. He has adventures and adult friends. He does it all on his own with a bravado most children (and adults) can barely dream of. His world is strange and colorful. He does not even have to go to school to have it all. Perhaps it was the science fiction of its day-India seems as unreal as Oz yet the people have emotions like us.
In a strange similarity to Huck Finn , both boys had alcoholic fathers and dead mothers. Huck had the same wisdom, not gained in school, of how the world really works and who a true friend is. They both have the knowledge gained by overcoming overwhelming obstacles and coming out the other end . Who would not be mesmerized?
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Oh, my, how dense of me. When ALF mentioned Don Quixote, I assumed she was comparing him with Kim. Of course, the lama would be the Don, and Kim would be Sancho Panza. Thanks for clarifying that for me, PAT.
JOAN, I didn't see any mention of a waddle. It's just when Kipling
referred to the gait, I got a mental image of that scene with the "Little
Tramp" walking away. The camel's gait looks loose and easy, but we're
definitely not jointed that way. I would imagine the long distance gait
would have to be a long, but relaxed stride.
My book doesn't have footnotes, which I'm now thinking is probably a
good thing. I can still go hunting for more info. whenever the spirit
moves me. (Oh, and I love the story about the camels and the IBM cards. ;) )
Reverence for life is a basic tenet of Buddhism. They will not knowingly
step on an insect. Bear in mind that they believe in reincarnation, and
that each life must be allowed to work itself out to it's end. Yes, the
Lama does believe that Kim was sent to assist him.
"never speak to a white man till he is fed.."
There's so much truth to that one, isn't there, ELLA? Feed the man! Then open up the discussion. There was a specialist on my survey team that I discouraged from writing his report until after lunch, for good reason.
'Great evil must the soul have done that is cast into this shape.'
This seems judgmental to me.
This is part of the Buddhist teachings, JONATHAN. The soul progresses
from lower to a higher form of life if it does well. If it does evil
during a lifetime, it slips back lower. It was simply an observation,
I think, rather than a judgment. The lama is giving Kim lessons as they
travel.
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Babi, I misunderstood. When you mentioned the gait of the Little Tramp - I saw those small, mincing steps - as opposed to the long-legged camel's stride that the lama exhibits. JoanK - loved hearing your wild camel experience! I don't think I'd have taken that job either. Kipling has mentioned camels several times in the story so far. I bet he has had first-hand experience with camels too.
"India seems as unreal as Oz yet the people have emotions like us."
I can see the appeal for young people, Jude.- it's science fiction to them, as you point out. No need to delve too deeply into the history of the place - it's an alien world to them. I thought I was going to read the book for just such an adventure - the reality of the world Kipling was presenting just seemed to overwhelm me. I have to admit, this is changing as I read - and read your posts. I love the way you are pulling out Kipling's descriptions and expressions - holding them up for closer consideration.
Kim and the lama travelling the Grand Trunk road - such a varied, colorful lot! The Grand Trunk Road - 1500 miles! It's the river of life, isn't it? Is the lama missing this fact? The lama never raises his eyes to the "passing parade of life - his soul busied elsewhere." He tells Kim to none of these people has the WAY been shown. And yet, he does seem to succumb to the charms of the "woman of importance" - doesn't he? He tells Kim he finds her "a virtuous woman and a wise one."
What is it that he sees in her that is virtuous? She wants another grandson - she thinks the lama can arrange this. . So what is it about her that causes him to leave off his concentration on his beads and spend so much of his time with her? It will be interesting to read for the answer to the question Jonathan asks - why is she weeping in her conversation with the lama? She didn't seem the "weepy" sort. He must have pushed the right button.
Jonathan - about those verses - have you considered the "woman of importance" to be Lady Luck? Kim seems to think so...
I thought it was interesting that the thinks of Kim as "thoughtful, wise and courteous....but something of an imp." Is he seeing the real Kim? Is Kim showing his true colors to the lama? I think so.
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Is Kim showing his true colors to the lama? I think so.
I agree. Kim is impressed by the lama's straightforward goodness and honesty, and reacts by being straightforward himself.
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HI JONATHAN! You've seen the movie! My library probably has it and if we didn't have mountains of snow on our streets, perhaps I could persuade some kind soul to bring it to me. My wheelchair is not going to suffice as a means of transportation.
The Grand Trunk Road: "A description of the road by Kipling, found both in his letters and in the novel "Kim". He writes: "Look! Brahmins and chumars, bankers and tinkers, barbers and bunnias, pilgrims -and potters - all the world going and coming. It is to me as a river from which I am withdrawn like a log after a flood. And truly the Grand Trunk Road is a wonderful spectacle. It runs straight, bearing without crowding India's traffic for fifteen hundred miles - such a river of life as nowhere else exists in the world." - a quote from Wikipedia
Kim was impressed by the lama from the very first sight. Was it his height (six feet)? Was it the color of his skin (yellow face, eyes turned up at the corner)
If the lama was such an unusual sight to Kim, who thought he had seen all castes of men, why is the lama not attracting more attention from others as he and Kim wander through the land.
India seems such a foreign land, so very strange. Could any of us even pronounce the names of some of its cities, its people? An example - Chota Lal
For that very reason I would love to visit the country.
My heart doctor is from India and has the name of Patel (which I understand is a very common name from that country). It is by his first name that he is known.
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I've put up the questions for Week 2 in the heading on this page, but the Week 1 questions are still in the headings on pages 1 and 2.
I have a feeling some of us aren't ready to move on yet, and there's still plenty more that could be said about chapters 1-4. That's OK too; we can still talk about them for a while, or about both sections simultaneously.
How far along is everyone? It would be helpful to know.
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JOANP, I think the Lama was willing to stop and talk with anyone about
the "Way". If the old woman was moved to tears, then he may have felt he was doing some good there. Also, anyone who was willing to help a holy man was considered to be doing a virtuous act.
I think it was perhaps that the Lama was from Tibet that drew Kim's
attention, ELLA. Tibetans were not encouraged to leave the country and
there would not have been many abroad. Kim was astounded to see a Tibetan holy man in Lahore. Tibetan or not, tho', a holy man on the road was a very common sight.
(ps..There are two Dr. Patels in my area...brothers.)
PAT, I finished reading the book, and am working from my notes now.
I have them listed by chapter, so I don't get ahead of the discussion.
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I'm just starting Chapter 5 but I read very fast.
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I am also just starting chapter 5.
Sally
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The lama sees the world as a miserable place--he is tied to the Wheel of Life and strives mightily to be freed from more incarnations. I know a prayer to Mary that takes a similar viewpoint, "to thee do we send up our sighs--weeping and wailing in this vale of tears..." Life is for heroes (and heroines), most of us unsung.
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Very interesting.
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I have finished Chapter eight and will try to answer the last of your questions as well as referencing question # one.
In my opinion the emotional conflict of the Lama is called LOVE and separation anxiety. The Lama is the only one on your list (in question one ) that really sees what is best for Kim's future. In sending him to a fine school he knows that Kim will change drastically. He most likely will not return as a chula to the lama. Nevertheless he wishes to save the boy from the clutches of Mahbub Ali, Creighton, Mr Bennett and Father Victor.
Only a good education will give Kim the ability to choose an independent life which will have meaning for himself and the world. The Lama very much wants to be part of Kim's future but is not sure that will happen. Kim himself does not realize how much he will change and that he will have a possibility of becoming more than a very clever boy who everyone wants to use for his own purpose.
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Good points, Jude! I like this:
"Kim himself does not realize how much he will change and that he will have a possibility of becoming more than a very clever boy who everyone wants to use for his own purpose".
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Wouldn't it be something if the lama turns out to be the biggest spy of all?
Jonathan, that would be something! You asked a question that stays with me - what brings him to India? Is there reason to believe the healing River of Life is here - and nowhere else?
Babi - ok, I can see the Lama spending time talking to the "woman of importance" about the Way. I think she flatters him- by treating him with respect. The lama admits it is hard to meditate and keep his mind on his Search now. I had to laugh when thirteen year old Kim advises his lama that all women are distractions.
PatH - I've begun Chapter VI. I puzzled over the choice of the verse that preceded Chatper V...the one that spoke of the return of the Prodigal. Do you have any idea to whom this refers? Who do you see as the prodigal in this chapter?
Elizabeth, I was interested in the translation of the lama's prayer as he meditated -
"Om mane padme hum." Do you have a footnote in your books?
I went to this site -
http://www.dharma-haven.org/tibetan/meaning-of-om-mani-padme-hung.htm
to learn more about the meaning of the words. I gather that it was a mantra - cannot be literally translated. What I found interesting - it originated in India and then made its way to Tibet.
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The action picks up now - can it be that Umballa priest's horoscope prediction has come true - to the letter? I don't see these two men of the cloth planning a great future for Kim - turning him into a "sahib" - and giving him "a fine education" - Rather I see them wanting to take this child of one of their regiment in hand, getting him off the streets...
(so our Kim is "Kimball.)
Jude, I expect to see things differently after reading the next few chapters. Right now, I see the lama interested in getting on with his own Search - not even sure he will keep his promise to Kim to stay with the lady of importance until Kim gets away the next day or so...I'm going to catch up with you- tonight!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 2
1. "It is no small thing to make a child" says the lama. In this section of the book, many people are struggling for control of Kim's future development. Looking at each one in turn, what is each trying to do? What would be the result if they have their way? Do you think any of them will get their way?
Mr. Bennett
Father Victor
The lama
Mahbub Ali
Creighton
Kim
2. In these chapters, Kim’s life changes dramatically. Does Kim also change? If so, how? What do you think of this turn of events?
3. In this section, Kipling portrays Englishmen (and boys) as well as Indians. What do you think of that portrayal? What attitudes do they show?
4. When Mahbub Ali and Kim meet Creighton, Ali makes fun of Kim’s coming school experience and past message-carrying. What is he really doing here?
5. When Kim arrives at St. Xavier’s School, he is met by the lama. What is the nature of the emotional conflict the lama is suffering here?
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Thank you Joan for that website. It was lovely to hear the lama's mantra after all these years of reading about it. And that was a fine story about the old hermit who walked on water--very amusing and instructive.
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Drat, I just lost a post. AND, my seriously arthritic finger feels as though I've broken it. I think I'll try later to re-write that post. It was
brilliant, of course. ::) I'll try to remember it.
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Well, we're off to a roaring start on the new section.
PatH - I've begun Chapter VI. I puzzled over the choice of the verse that preceded Chatper V...the one that spoke of the return of the Prodigal. Do you have any idea to whom this refers? Who do you see as the prodigal in this chapter
That is the first verse of a humorous poem by Kipling retelling the Biblical story with a twist. Here's the whole thing:
http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/1237/ (http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/1237/)
Kim is definitely the Prodigal Son here. He's returned to his "family"--his father's regiment--and he doesn't care much for it.
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Babi, why is it always the most brilliant posts that get lost?
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JoanP, thanks for posting that link about om mane padme hum. It gives a little of the feel of Buddhism, which is important to the story, since it's central to almost everything the lama does.
Although only a very small fraction of Indians are Buddhists, Buddha was born and lived there, and all the important religious sites connected with his life are there. The lama hopes to visit them in the course of his search for the River.
Elizabeth, sorry I had to put the heading in your post.
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I have read a translation of the mantra as "the jewel at the heart of the lotus". But clearly, according to Joan's site, that is inadequate.The word OHM itself is holy in buddhism and is supposed to represent everything in the universe. It is often used as a mantra by itself.
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Here are Tibetans spinning the prayer whells:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IU69BB3vj4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IU69BB3vj4&feature=related)
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Interesting variety in the attention the worshipers pay to their devotions..
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1. This section is very adventuresome. Kim sees happiness is his travels on the Grand Trunk. Bennett sees Kim as needing to whipped into shape, literally. Father Victor, the very antithesis of the protestant Mason Kipling, thinks with his heart and sees in Kim great promse. Mahbub is the most aware of the true Kim but has his own expectations and agenda for Kim. Creighton sees Kim as a tool which kismet has provided for his use. To the lama Kim is like a miracle, dropping into hislife to share his pilgrammage until he sees that that very same pilgrammage has brought Kim to the fulfillment of O'Hara's prophecy.
2. Kim is intelligent and clever. He sees opportunities and cashes in on them but he hoard his treasure until he can get the best deal for it. He is just beginning to grow into his fully realized self and he sees the goal thought not yet clearly; he commits himself to preparation for its fullfilment.
3. The contrast between the rigidity of thoughtf and lack of imagination of the English, both older and younger, anal and unswervingly linear versus the capricious lIndians depending on happenstance to lead them.
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Father Victor, the very antithesis of the protestant Mason Kipling, thinks with his heart and sees in Kim great promise.
That's an interesting point, Jackie. Kipling wanted the contrast between the two priests, but good and bad, understanding and oblivious priests occur in all religions, yet Kipling chooses the Catholic to be the compassionate, caring one.
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JoanK - thanks so much for the prayer wheel - nothing like I pictured it. Loved seeing the pedestrians give it a spin as they walked by. Can anyone spin?
At this point I feel that all three men - the Lama, Mahbub and Father Victor are all bemused by Kim. Father Victor asks if there are more like him or if Kim is a "lucus naturae" - "a whim or a freak of nature." They really don't seem to want to control him, change him - except to provide more opportunity for him. He is so bright, and quick, he deserves more. Never mind that Kim really doesn't want more, is perfectly happy to be on the Road with the Lama.
As I write that, I'm reminded of Kim's Search - the Red Bull on the green field - is supposed to help him, right? This is the legacy left to him by his father. These men all seem to be on Kim's side. Col.Creighton, I'm not so sure what motivates his interest in Kim. As a case study?
That was some parting scene between Kim and his Lama at the St. Xavier gates. Is the Lama telling Kim that he does not love him - but is interested in his education? Where do you think he is getting the money to pay for Kim's education?
Jackie, I don't thnk anyone is going to "control" Kim, do you? I think he will consider everything that he's learning - and make his own choices when all is said and done.
Ella - the Buddhists have their temples, right?
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Speaking of the spinning prayers I believe tomorrow I will write a short prayer and slip the paper into my lettuce spinner, and then I will be multi- tasking as I prepare my salad.
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;D
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Thanks for finding the full Kipling poem, PatH. The man had a point.
There are families that cause one to think that caring for hogs would
be more pleasant.
It is a mystery, isn't it, how those brilliant posts get lost? And
of course the re-write is never quite as good. Part of that post had
to do with the meditation mantra, I recall. The syllables themselves
have a resonance, much like humming, that tends to calm and soothe the
mind. Very useful when one wished to meditate.
Thanks for that picture, JOAN. Certainly looks like an easy way to get
your prayers done!
ELIZABETH! ::)
I was startled to consider the peril of the spy: “Then, if he spits, or sneezes, or sits down other than as the people do whom he watches, he may be slain.” It never struck me before how such tiny things could betray one as not a native. Kim could have had a brilliant career as
an actor, and a much safer one. Not nearly as exciting, tho'.
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Kim is a natural at this, Babi. Remember in chapter 3 when Kim is trying to impress the old soldier that he really does know there is going to be a war, he mimics all the Commander in Chief's gestures, even though he's only seen the man once.
Elizabeth, now I'll think of you every time I see a salad spinner!
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Good for you, Elizabeth. Here is an even more efficient way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5on-fP28sY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5on-fP28sY&feature=related)
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JoanP: "Is the Lama telling Kim that he does not love him - but is interested in his education?" What do the rest of you think?
And why are Mahbub Ali and Colonel Creighton so interested in Kim?
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Oh, I think the Lama cares very much for Kim. He rationalizes his disappointment that Kim is not staying with him. He is trying to overcome this attachment by citing his religious beliefs and quest. So he strives to collect merit by paying Kim's way through school, and to assuage Kim's grief at being separated claims he is at fault for becoming attached against his religious goals. I have to double check, but isn't his goal to become detached from worldly concerns, possessions and desires, etc.?
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Fry: That's how I read it, too.
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Where do you think the Lama might be getting the 300 rupees to pay for Kim's education? Do you suspect an alliance - perhaps with Mahbub? Would either of these two men be willing to pay for Kim's Catholic education?
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Joan K, that's a pretty outrageous prayer wheel; now every time I spin the lettuce I will remember that it is wrong to kill...without respect.
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I think most of the men Kim has met in these chapters are amazed, amused and want in some way to help the boy. Do you feel that any of them want to use or abuse the boy?
The lama certainly loves Kim and the money he gives for his education at Xavier comes from his Tibetan "order" - I cannot spell it without getting the book.
Creighton, the Colonel, is amused and wants to see the boy get an education, as does the priest.
I'm not sure yet about the horse trader, who is looking out for No.1
Isn't Kim an amazing kid. Three months in the school, just having learned to read and write (what could he have learned in that short of time?) and he escapes back into his beloved streets and alleyways to be as one with the natives. Even hires a girl (a prostitute) to dye his skin and hair and get him appropriate clothing on the pretense of a date.
The school was a good influence on Kim, don't you think? He seemed to thrive there and the other students were of a nature that corresponded with his own. However, Kim could not forget the native Indian, it was in his soul to be a native, not a Sahib.
Should Kim be aware of any of the men he has met?
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Gorgeous pictures of Lucknow, India where Kim's school was located:
http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/NorthIndia/Lucknow/Lucknow.htm
"They 'll make a man o' you, O'Hara, at St. Xavier's- a white man" - Father Victor said.
"But I am to pray to Babi Miriam (the Virgin Mary) and I am a Sahib"
No, I am Kim. This is the great world, and I am only Kim. Who is Kim?"
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What adventures indeed, Ella. Did you notice Kipling's attitudes creeping in here? "There were boys of fifteen who had spent a day and a half on an islet in the middle of a flooded river, taking charge, as by right, of a camp of frantic pilgrims returning from a shrine...." The Sahib always takes the lead. Later, "One must never forget that one is a Sahib, and that some day, when examinations are passed, one will command natives." I don't think Kim buys this. He keeps quiet about his own adventures and bides his time.
Kipling made up St. Xavier's, but it's thought to be based on La Martiniere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Martiniere_Lucknow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Martiniere_Lucknow)
What do you think about "...at St. Xavier's they know the first rush of minds developed by sun and surroundings, as they know the half-collapse that sets in at twenty-two or twenty-three."? I suspect that's educational nonsense.
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Ella, you were posting while I was writing. Great pictures--thanks. Kipling obviously loved Lucknow, and you can see why.
"No, I am Kim. This is the great world, and I am only Kim. Who is Kim?"
I'm glad you noticed that. I think it's important.
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Where do you think the Lama might be getting the 300 rupees to pay for Kim's education? Do you suspect an alliance - perhaps with Mahbub? Would either of these two men be willing to pay for Kim's Catholic education?
Good question, JoanP. We aren't told where the lama got the money (someone tell me if I missed it) but I agree with Ella that it was probably from the monastery. It couldn't have been any sort of alliance. Almost the second the lama knew of the totally unexpected fact that Kim was going to be taken away and educated, he knew exactly what he was going to do.
The Lama: "Ask them for how much money do they give a wise and suitable teaching?"
Through Kim's translating, he learns details.
Kim, translating: "He says: 'Write that name and the money upon a paper and give it to him.' And he says you must write your name below, because he is going to write a letter in some days to you...."
He already knew what he was going to do.
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Notice, in spite of the "Catholic education", Catholicism hasn't seemed to have rubbed off on him at all. He's probably seen so many different gods already, one more doesn't make much impression.
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When I read this years ago I little knew that the word "madrassa" (accepted spelling today) would become so familiar to me.
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When I read this years ago I little knew that the word "madrassa" (accepted spelling today) would become so familiar to me.
I didn't even know the word before. A lot of things are more familiar to me this time around.
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I went looking for pictures of beautiful Lucknow, too, ELLA, but I like
yours better. Such beautiful, graceful architecture.
I read Laurie King's book, "The Game", in which Holmes and Russell
meet Kim 25 years later. I thought it appropriate that Kim, in her book,
had become a Buddhist, ..though still involved in 'the game', and used
his beads as faithfully as his beloved Lama.
Back to Kipling, when Kim is asked, “And who are thy people”, he replies, “This great and beautiful land.” He has as a tie, a bond, here, that I think his parent country can never replace. And he has grown up so very fast as a street child. Now, in his teens, he says “Every month I become a year more old.” It becomes plausible that a boy this young could do what Kim does.
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kipling keeps his focus in Kim's coming of age but we know that Kim had to avoid the lures of human predators who harvest street kids. Like any such kid anywhere, Kim may be young in years but wise in the ways of his world. His life now exposes hum to realms undreamed of and he sets out to master the new as he did the old. His struggle is to maintain his core in spite of the inducements of the other life such as those awarded for passing examinations. Complicating factors are his need for respect and recognition of his talents and love learned from the lama who is depending on Kim to guide him to his redemption from sin, being washed in his river.
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I like your analysis, Jackie, especially "His struggle is to maintain his core".
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AT first I thought Kim was too good, too smart, too savvy to be true. But now I see him admitting to mistakes and learning from them. Don't you wonder what sort of a person he will grow up to be? He seems to be struggling to hold on to his old self - the one he created. He will truly be a self-made man - with some help from the many people he befriends along the way. Are we all like that to some extent? Isn't that how we came to be who we are today?
Kim doesn't seem to want to be anything more than what he was - wants to get school days over with and get back to his old life. But he can't go back, can he? -
I can't see the lama's monastery paying for the boy's education - that's a lot of money. But it's the only explanation we have right now. The lama does want him to be educated. He is the only one who has the motive to pay for an education for him.
At first I didn't see Mahbub Ali's interest in Kim - but as the two spend time together on the Road during Kim's spring break - I think he really does care for the boy. Do you think I'm being naive? Does M. really have Kim's interest at heart?
I looked up two words that had me puzzled -
Sahib - a title of respect for a white European in India - does Sahib refer to all white men or just educated ones?
A fakir - literally ‘one who is in need’, whether physical or spiritual, the term has come to denote need of and dependence on God, and so is used for a religious mendicant. It originally referred to a Muslim religious mendicant, but in India is now a general term for an ascetic (see asceticism). I got the impression that Kipling uses fakir in a more derrogatory manner.
Kim does not want to be a Sahib, so he says. He claims that all he wants to do is join his lama on the Road. Does he aspire then to be a fakir?
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I think Kim won't let himself be labelled by anyone, he will always march to his own drummer. It may suit him to pretend. He has found that accompanying the lama allows him to recede into the background, all the attention is on the holy man, and gives him freedom to pursue his own ends. He does genuinely care for the lama, and for Mahbub, who likewise cares for him and has protected him in ways Kim is unaware of through his network of contacts. I'm sure that Kipling wrote this for boys but it is a siren's song to anyone who has few choices in life.
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JOANP asks - "Are we all like that to some extent? Isn't that how we came to be who we are today?"
I see a few ways that apply to most of us in Kim's personality. Particularly when he asks WHO AM I? Don't we all ask that at times? WHAT AM I TO DO WITH THE LIFE GIVEN ME? (perhaps this is a personal question?)
The question of Kim changing in these chapters is an interesting one and I haven't an answer to that one. I must read more in the book.
JACKIE, I would love to hear more about this book being a "siren's song to anyone who has few choices in life." What do you mean?
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Ella: I mean persons who have little choice in where they live, for instance, due to limited income, Or who are stuck, in dead end jobs. Or parents whose adult children have moved back because their unemployment has ended. Kim has been called a Peter Pan, the epitome of carefree youth.
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Pat
I read the whole article on the school at Lucknow that you referenced for us.
The more I read the more I thought of the Harry Potter series and his school. There are so many similarities between Harry's school "Hogwarts' and the school described in the article. Perhaps J.K.Rowling also was influenced by Kim. Or perhaps all British schools are like this and so I drew this parallel.
Again I will say that the only person who really cares about Kim, for his own sake, is the Lama. Mr Creighton wants to use him as a surveyor, MahbubAli wants Kim to spy for him, the priests want another convert to their religion. The Lama has somehow gotten the funds to pay for Kim's education so that Kim can become who Kim will be. Their relationship is mutual since Kim has no parents and the Lama no children. The story seems to be based on their relationship and what it will eventually mean to each of them. I have stopped at the end of chapter 8 but am having a hard time not reading further.
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I will be visiting my daughter and her family for the next week. I'm not sure if I will get a chance to check in, but I am taking Kim with me. If you don't hear from me; I will return in a week.
Sally
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Mahbub and Creighton do want to use Kim; his talents are exceptional
for their needs. Nevertheless, they do like the boy and care about him,
in my opinion. I believe they would do all they could to protect him for
his own sake, and not just for what he can do.
I was surprised to find this evidence of prejudice in Kim. He is a ‘Friend to all the world”, but he describes his half-caste fellow students as “Their eyes are blue and their nails are blackened with low-caste blood, many of them. Sons of metheranees--brothers-in-law to the bhungi (sweeper). I find this hard to understand since Kim usually travels disguised as a low-caste Hindu boy. (I couldn't find a translation
of the word 'metheranees'.)
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Sally--have a good time, and we'll welcome you back. We have 2 more days on this section, so we'll still be on chapters 9-12 when you get back.
Babi, my book translates mehteranees as: princesses, an ironic courtesy title for women cleaners.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 3
1. In this section, we meet more characters who "grow" Kim. What does Lurgan Sahib want with Kim? What is the relationship between Lurgan and his other disciple? How is it different from his relationship with Kim? Why is Lurgan pleased when Kim doesn't see the vase? Why doesn't he see it?
2. What does the scene with Kim, Mahbub Ali, Huneefa, and Huree Babu tell us about each of them? What kind of person is Hurree Babu? What is a Babu?
3. What has changed in the lama's idea of his search? How does the parable of the bound elephant affect his beliefs? Are there other changes in his attitude toward Kim? If so, why?
4. After Kim leaves school, he starts dreaming and thinking in Hindustani again. Have you ever thought in another language? Did it change the way you thought?
5. In Chapter 11, Kim again asks "Who is Kim?" What does the passing Hindu mean when he says "I also have lost it?"
6. Kim is thrust unexpectedly into "The Game". What does E23 tell us about the lives of those in The Game? Can you understand wanting to live such a life? What are Kim's mixed reactions? Can you understand them?
7. In the reshuffling after the war of 8000 men, Russian enemies are gaining a new foothold. What do you know about the role of Russia in British-ruled India at this time?
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Babi: When I read that section I did not believe Kim was being judgmental or biased but simply making an observation. That's my sociology background. Kipling's writings seem to me to be free of bias considering the common practices at the time. That's one of the reasons I so enjoy his writing.
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Kim is always swearing by telling people their mother was low-caste. And he quotes sayings that denegrate other types of people. These predjudices are in the air around him. but predjudice is not simple. He can hold these predjudices, and at the same time, be friends with the same people.
Kim knows he is cleverer than most of the people he deals with. The only ones he seems to really respect are the lama, Mahbub Ali, and Col. Creighton. His feelings toward the lama are mixed: he knows that the lama is both more (spiritually) and less (in worldly things) than he is.
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I agree with Joan. Reference the silly discussion concerning what Senator Reid said about then Congressman Obama. So much of what we say is generational and geographical and not prejudicial. I remember being screamed at by a girl after I said “I haven’t seen you in a coon’s age!” believing what I had said was the equivalent of “It’s been a long time since I saw you last.” I grew up in a college town in Iowa where people from around the world came to study. I don’t remember much prejudice in my town, but I would imagine most of us who grew up with me in the 40s-50s still repeat sayings unwittingly that would now be considered prejudicial. If you listen to the dialogue in movies of that time you can hear many of them.
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Hello there, Kidsal! Good to see you. I remember your trouble with this book - so much information crammed into each paragraph. I am finding the going a bit easier now - and hope you are too.
I found your post interesting. I don't see Kipling prejudiced against the low-caste - or portraying Kim that way. He presents Kim as a product of the environment in which he grew up - but as JoanK says, he is friends with them as individuals -
after all, he's the "Little Friend of all the World" - isn't he? I think he's growing into this description with each new experience.
So many teachers...
I was interested in Kim's response to Mahbub's maxim - "When among Sahibs never forget thou art a Sahib."
Kim seems to understand and accept this - but when he's among the Hind? "What am I? Mussalman (Muslim?), Hindu, Jain(?), or Buddhist? He seems to be struggling with his identity.
Mahbub tells him - "Faiths are like horses. Each has merit in its own country."
What does he mean ? How does that help Kim?
Kim's response to this - "My lama said altogether a different thing."
Do you remember what the lama said to Kim?
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Kim's question: Who is Kim--sahib or native? reminds me of Obama's choice.
His genealogical background has nothing to do with American slavery; as a young man he had dual citizenship here and in Kenya, and his mother's family was white and from the Midwest.
When he was studying for his law degree he had a close relationship with a white woman of a moneyed family and was on track for a lucrative career on Wall St or perhaps DC.
And the answer to his Kim-question was, "I am an American Black, and I embrace all that that means." Then he went to work in the black ghettoes of Chicago to teach and encourage people to speak up for themselves.
I'm such a fan of his (obviously).
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I'm with you, Elizabeth! :)
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Ah, thank you, PAT. That makes sense in the context.
You may be right, JACKIE, about Kim's statement being simply an
observation, but I don't agree. To call the half-caste students sons
of cleaning women and 'brothers-in-law' to sweepers sounds derogatory
to me, especially as many of those boy were from well-to-do and
respectable families. Of course, I understand that marrying out of caste
was frowned upon in India. It may be the same prejudice that we saw
here in America toward 'half-breeds', but it is a prejudice.
Kidsal, the girl who got upset apparently misunderstood the meaning
of 'coon' in that context. I believe the reference is to the age of a
raccoon and was never a racial slur. So many misunderstanding could be
cleared up if people wouldn't jump to conclusions and quit listening.
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I'm playing catch-up on a few points.
JudeS, I've read about other British schools that reminded me of Hogwarts too. I think we can assume there are a lot of schools like that, and any one could be the model for Hogwarts.
Sahib - a title of respect for a white European in India - does Sahib refer to all white men or just educated ones?
JoanP, I had always thought that it was generally used as a term of respect, but could also simply refer to any Englishman or European. It was hard to pin down, but the Oxford English Dictionary agrees with me. Mostly it's respectful or used toward someone in authority, but can just mean European. The OED gives many quotes for it's definitions. I particularly liked "These English Sahebs are white-skinned, white-livered lepers" (1859). I guess it wasn't a term of respect here.
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I just finished another novel on India. It came out in 2009. It isn't great literature but it sure helped me to understand the Indian Caste System.. It's called "The Marriage Bureau for Rich People". Its by an Indian Muslim, Farahad Zama, now living in London.Its a very easy read.
The complexities of the culture are extreme. In the part of India described in the book their are two main religions-Hindus who speak Teluga and Muslims who speak Urdu. The book stresses the importance of family relationships especially in choosing a marriage partner.
I will quote a short passage: "There are supposed to be four castes among HIndus-Brahmins the priestly class, Kashatriya, or warriors; Vaishyas, or merchants; and Shudras, or workers.....
There are subcastes within castes, and subcastes within subcastes...Over thousands of years the system became rigid and hereditary..subcastes were based on peoples jobs. ...we might think that all leather workers were one subcast of Shudras but within that, the people who tanned leather were a different subcast from those who made shoes, and they were again different from those who made saddles.
I wonder how much of this Kim knew and used in his dealings with people?
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I wonder how much of this Kim knew and used in his dealings with people?
I'm sure he was very aware of this, in considerable detail. His insults are often caste-related, and always appropriate to the victim.
There is a lot of caste-related prejudice, and Kim, as one outside the system (and a sahib as well) can view it with detachment. Although at the start of the book he isn't interested in being a sahib, I wonder if some of his self-confidence comes from the inner knowledge of this.
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Laurie R King's RThe Game adds much to my enjoyment of Kim. In fact, i forget between her books how very much I like her writing; when I start one of her books, it like," Oh Yes, I'm here again in King's wonderfrul world again." There is a nice map in the front of the book and Kim is mentioned frequently.
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I read that several years ago. At the time, it had been decades since I had read Kim, so didn't appreciate the parallels. I plan to read it again, when we finish Kim.
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Did you notice how Kim's "handlers" always compare Kim to a polo pony? Obviously, that means he is capable of more than most horses. But does anyone know enough about polo to understand it more specifically? I'm a sports junkie, and follow many sports, but polo isn't one of them.
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We’ve already said a lot about question 5, but I’d like to tie it together before we move on, because it’s important in the book.
The lama’s conflict is between his religion and his affections. The Way teaches that all affections and earthly things are illusion, which must be renounced. He has let himself become fond of Kim, and bitterly realizes his mistake in the scene with Bennett and Father Victor.
But he sees he can help Kim, as he truly wants to do, since it is meritorious to provide education. He will pay for Kim’s schooling.
At the start of the school term, he meets Kim at the gate. "A day and a half have I waited—not…led by any affection for thee—that is no part of the Way—but…because money (was) paid….I had a fear that, perhaps I came because I wished to see thee….It is not so."
They part. "Do not weep; for, look you, all Desire is illusion and a new binding upon the Wheel….Let me see thee go…Dost thou love me? Then go, or my heart cracks."
He’s making excuses for himself, and it just about makes you cry.
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The questions for week 3, chapters 9-12, are now up on this page. As always, discussion of previous sections is still open, and the older questions are still available on earlier pages.
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JOANK, my reaction to the polo pony comparison was simply that they are quick to respond and agile, which seems to fit Kim pretty well.
Since you asked, I found out a bit more about polo ponies. This seems
appropriate: "Polo ponies are not a registered breed but a type of horse or pony that possess intelligence, bravery, speed, strength and masses of agility". That's Kim, I would say.
Now Kim begins his training in observation under Sahib Lurgan. Isn't it interesting that the games used to teach him these skills are games we all have played as children? Games that teach concentration and observation, and develop habits of memorization. And they're fun,
making it easy to learn. Sahib Lurgan knows his business.
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I've been reading your posts on the caste system in India with great interest - they help to understand the castes - and "subcastes within castes, and subcastes within subcastes...Over thousands of years the system became rigid and hereditary..subcastes were based on peoples jobs" (Thanks, Jude) It helps to understand some of Kim's comments and attitudes based on his experience - Babi, I think his classifying the sons of cleaning ladies and chimney sweeps might very well have been recognition of the existing class system, rather than derogatory comments reflecting Kim's attitudes, do you think?
Kipling grew up here too - and would have been very aware of this "casting" according to one's occupation.
I'm a bit puzzled where Kim fits in this system. He's too young to have a profession - it seems he is being groomed for the military. What of his parents - his mother a maid, his father a colonel in the military? The military seems to be high in the caste systme.
JoanK brings up the horses - and Babi the polo ponies. Wasn't polo considered the "sport of kings?"
I just looked that up and here's what I found -
"The Game of Polo is said to be the “Sport of Kings”. It was considered an aristocrat sport because it was limited to those that possessed the wealth to participate in the sport. I believe the meaning goes a lot deeper than this. It has often been said that the game of Polo has its beginnings as a celebration after the conquering of one army by another. The leaders of the conquering army would hit the head of the defeated leader around from horseback. Although it was claimed to be the beginning of the game of Polo, there is evidence of Polo prior to this. Some believe that Polo was developed somewhere between the 3rd and 4th millennium BC in the region of Nepal, Tibet and Northern India. Sport of Kings (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/43201/the_sport_of_kings_is_not_horse_racing.html)
Clearly Kim is not a wealthy aristocrat - but rather one of the prized ponies? There are many who recognize his superior qualities and talents - You have to wonder which path he will follow. Right now, it seems that he wants only to follow the lama down the "road" of contemplation.
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So many questions arise from the next section. Lurgan sees another side of Kim. Was the smashed water jar really magical? Perhaps Kim was hypnotized? I'm trying to explain away the magic...but whatever happend, Lurgan was pleased with Kim's ability to see the jar smashed and then made whole. I think he was - what did you take this to mean?
"I am pleased with you - yes; and I am pleased with you, no."
And then what does he mean when he tells Kim - "you are the first who has ever saved himself?" Saved himself from what? I am dying to know how you interpreted that! Perhaps he has saved himself from the jealous lad who wants to poison his master?
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So, Kim flings "himself wholeheartedly on the next turn of the wheel" And goes to Lurgan Sahib in Simla. Simla was the British summer capital, a refuge from the heat of the plains. It's at the edge of the Himalayas, described by Kipling as being "at an angle of forty-five". It certainly is!
Simla (http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Asia/India/North/Himachal_Pradesh/Shimla/photo1101940.htm)
Simla in Winter (http://namastey.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/shimla.jpg)
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Oh, migosh PAT! What a place, what photos. It looks as if houses were built upon houses. How beautiful the photo of Simla in winter.
My book was taken back to the library, but I can read it online when I have a few moments.
The phrase "all desire is an illusion" that the lama said to Kim at the gate of the school is so unusual; part of Buddhism. I looked it up online and found the following lecture. "Forget yourself" is what Buddhism is about???
I do believe we can separate ourselves from whatever life throws at us although it takes some effort.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzPk0QVr_nQ
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There is so much to think about in the posts today.
The pictures of Simla are amazing. You get nothing of this from Kipling's description. To Kim, in the middle of it, it is just crowded and noisy.
The description of the polo pony is just like Kim. And polo is "the sport of Kings". Is that how the people plying "The Game" see themselves as "Kings"?
"polo pony" is a good analogy for Kim. He is extraordinary, but only performs his feats under the direction of others. I wonder how long before this pony breaks his traces?
Where does Kim fit into the caste system? He doesn't. He is English! I remember EM Forster's description in "Passage to India". English working class, who maybe were failures in their own country, can come out to India and immediately become "Sahibs" with thousands of people to look down on.
JOANp: "And then what does he mean when he tells Kim - "you are the first who has ever saved himself?"Good question. I thought at first that it only meant that Kim was the first not to give in to hypnotism, but now I think it might mean more than that. What do the rest of you think?
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The youtube lecture was interesting. It's a central tenet of Buddhism that this world is illusion, and that it is attachment to the things of this world that causes suffering. They believe in rebirth: as long as we are attatched to the things of this world, we will continue to be reborn in an endless round of suffering. (the Wheel of Life). Only by breaking that attatcment can we be free.
The lama is not the only one who has trouble with seeing the world as illusion, flleting like dew in the morning. The Japanese poet Issa, also a Buddhist monk. wrote on the death of his daughter:
A world of dew
it is indeed,
And yet, and yet . . .
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That's a heartbreaking haiku, Joan.
I'm obviously not ready for Buddhism. I can't even begin to think about breaking my attachment to the illusion of this world.
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JoanP, from Lurgan's manipulations, I understood him to be attempting to hypnotize Kim. Apparently Lurgan was very good at that, as he says Kim is the first to have been able to resist the 'magic' he was supposed to be seeing. Lurgan would naturally be pleased, since Kim has shown
he would be equally able to resist hypnotizing by others. I don't remember now what was meant by "I am pleased with you...no."
Beautiful picture of Simla in Winter, PAT. Definitely a place for summer
stays, tho'. I wouldn't want to spend a winter there.
JOANK, those three lines carry such a weight of sadness. IMO, the
attachments one forms for others is the only thing that makes the
hardships of life worthwhile.
Kim is 16, and Mahbub and Lurgan are arguing that Kim is ready to be set loose as an agent in the ‘chain’.
I notice more than once the difference in the eastern/oriental ideas of time and maturity. Mahbub declares “When I was fifteen, I had shot my man and begot my man, Sahib."
(It pleases and entertains me that the members of this organization include Chritians, Mohammedans, Hindus and Parthians…and they respect one another. Which of course does not prevent them from insulting one another. :))
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While Kim is in Simla, he first meets another important character, Hurree Babu, tall, massively obese, "with the gait of a bogged cow". What do you think of him?
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I notice more than once the difference in the eastern/oriental ideas of time and maturity. Mahbub declares “When I was fifteen, I had shot my man and begot my man, Sahib."
Yes, and the page before, he has presented Kim with his first pistol, saying "...please God thou shalt someday kill a man with it."
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The interesting thing to me about caste in "Kim" is not that it comes up, but that it comes up so little. Not only Kim but the Indian Characters seem to move between castes easily. This was an Englishman's (Kipling's) perception -- i wonder how accurate it was.
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An interesting point, JoanK - Kipling is an Englishman - perhaps the caste system did not affect him as it would an Indian at the time.
I understood Mahbub's comment about shooting a man as an expression of his opinion that a man is not a man until he shoots his first man...He wants Kim to grow up and leave the school.
I'm not too clear on what this "GAME of the Road" is all about - are you? These characters, Mahbub, Lurgan, Creighton, Huree all seem to be working for a the "Department" - and feel the need to get Kim involved now - they need men - they need Kim.
Kim seems to understand what he is training for, so I'm just reading along waiting for the plot to unfold.
He's excused from his classes at St. Xavier - has permission to go on the Road for six months with his beloved lama. Not sure why Creighton, Lurgan and Mahbub agreed to this - except they seem to think Kim is ready to leave the school.
I was puzzled about the FRS - I'm guessing it is the royal scientific society in London - Huree wishes to become a Fellow of the Royal Society of London. He is taking "ethnological" notes, collecting notes on the folklore of the area for his paper - that will gain his acceptance into this Society.
I looked up "Babu" -
In British India, "babu" was a term used to describe a native Indian clerk. The word was originally used as a term of respect attached to a proper name, the equivalient of "mister", and "babuji" was used in many parts to mean "sir"; but when used alone without the suffix, it was a derogatory word signifying a semi-literate native, with a mere veneer of modern education.[1][2] In the early 20th century the term babu was frequently used to refer to bureaucrats and other government officials, especially by the Indian media; in this sense the word hints at corrupt or lazy work practices
He sure gets a lot of material watching Huneefa's ritual that is to provide Kim protection from the devils and dangers on the road. She has "deEnglishsized" Kim - I'm wondering what color is his skin now...
Curiously, Colonel Creighton is writing a paper too - which he hopes will earn him the same FRS initials after his name...
But first - how do you understand the "Game" that brings everyone together - Mahbub, Creighton, Lurgan, Huree...and now Kim? Are they working for the goverment? Is the Department a goverment agency?
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You're quite right, JoanP, FRS is a Fellow of the Royal Society. This is one of the oldest scientific societies going (founded 1662) and one of the most prestigious. From Isaac Newton on down to the present, it's members have been world class scientists, and it's a coveted honor to be a member. Kipling points out that most people would regard going to one of their meetings as cruel and unusual punishment, but as a scientist, I totally understand this ambition in both Creighton and Hurree Babu. Kipling means an amusing contrast here, that this is what these hard-bitten practical men want.
Thanks for the definition of Babu. It clarifies how Kipling thinks of this character. He is both respected and a slightly comic figure. I remember that Kim sometimes calls him "babuji", the respectful term. More later as we talk about him.
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The Game: that's good to bring up here. We talked about this a little in the pre-discussion, the great British spy operation in India, but now is a particularly good time to amplify, since the game is heating up. Several good books were mentioned: Meyer and Brisac's "Tournament of Shadows--The Great Game and the Race for Empire in Central Asia", Hopkirk's "The Great Game", plus novels Laurie King's "The Game" and M. M. Kaye's "The Far Paviions".
Several of us have read one or more of these--Jonathan, Jackie, Frybabe, Elizabeth, and I've probably left someone out. Hey, experts, how about telling us a little of what it was all about?
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Essentially it was about Russian expansion and the British fears that the Russians could and would eventually invade India via Afghanistan and surrounds. Very little was known about the lands north of India including areas controlled by the Persians. What everybody wanted to know was if the Russians could actually invade and from where they would most likely make the attempt.
Also, both the Russians and the English had designs on opening up trade in these hard to reach and unknown areas. For all that, they needed to know the lay of the land, what the people were like, and whether they would be open to trade and friendly alliances. A very hard thing to do since the whole region was populated with little kingdoms often warring with each other.
These people were often very suspicious of strangers, especially of those not Muslim. Banditry was very common and so was raiding for slaves. In fact, many Russians were taken as slaves along the borderlands in the Caucuses. This was one of the excuses the Russians gave for their attempted invasions.
The Great Game involved spying on what the Russians (or English) were up to, surveying the lay of the land for possible invasion routes and commerce, feeling out the local populace, trying to get a treaty or trade agreement which excluded the other nation, and of course, military alliances. Anyhow, there was a lot of paranoia going around in both Russia and England about what the other was up to.
It is only in chapter 10 that I saw mention of the commissariat and only in passing. Maybe more is said further on in the book.
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I wonder if I am alone in feeling that the comparison of Kim to a "Polo Pony" (as talented as they may be) is a deep insult to a young man such as Kim. He can be a rider and not an animal used by others to win the "GAME". I hope by the end of the book Kim will not be ridden upon and used but a rider in a game of his own choosing.
Only the Lama loves Kim and has no wish to "ride" him for his own purposes.
Remember when playing Polo the names of the riders are constantly mentioned and looked up to. The Ponies are tools of the game.
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On first appearances, I find it hard to take Hurree Babu seriously. Is he in the book for comic effect, do you think?
That was an interesting finding about the term 'babu', JOAN. It certainly puts Babu into a specific category, doesn't it? Still, as he is part of
"the Game", that must be part of his 'cover'. So maybe there is more to Hurree than the comic role.
Since Col. Creighton is the head spy for this region, this must be a
govenment department. India has so many peoples, many of them unhappy with the domination of the British, a network of spies would be essential. And of course, as FRYABE points out, the Russians were a constant threat on the northern border.
A good point, JUDE. I took the comparison as simply a tribute to Kim's
agility, skill and bravery. But there is no question that his admirer's
intended to use him for their purposes.
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I don't know why my posts are breaking up like they did above. They
are in order before posting. This happened on a previous post as well.
Any suggestions?
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Frybabe, thanks for the nice background summary.
Jude and Babi, yes, there is a demeaning aspect to calling Kim a pony. Both Mahbub Ali and Creighton see him as a natural for the Department, and are grooming him for this. (Oops, another horse analogy.) But I think Ali at least is genuinely fond of Kim too. Also, they're old friends, have known each other for 6 years near the start of the book. As a horse trader, the analogy would come naturally to Ali, but I must admit it seems a little tiresome to me by now.
On first appearances, I find it hard to take Hurree Babu seriously. Is he in the book for comic effect, do you think?......So maybe there is more to Hurree than the comic role.
I think Hurree Babu is definitely being played for comic effect, but he also plays a serious role.
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I kind of assumed that talking about Kim in polo pony terms was a code of sorts. To casual ears it would sound like they were indeed talking about horse training. Trained spies on the other hand may or may not recognize it as code but would not know who they were talking about. The night has a thousand eyes and the walls have ears.
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FRYBABE: ex cellant summary. Now I understand better the emphasis on surveying and being able to recount accurately what you see in Kim's training. Also, I didn't know until you told us that some of the spying was aimed at the Russians. The Cold War, almost a century later, must seem like a natural extension of this.
JUDE: yes, the polo pony performs at the master's bidding. It is rather scary to me how the spy network gloms onto Kim, and assumes they can run his life. First, Mahbib Ali tests him with the delivery of the White Stallion note. Then he tells Creighton, the head, that Kim is a natural. Before we know it, we have four people running Kim's life by committee. Scary. If it takes this much work to breed one spy, no wonder The Game needs people.
But they do realize that this horse (sorry) isn't completely broken. If they don't give him space, he may run away.
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I think you're right about the code, Frybabe.
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The polo pony comparison, to me, smacked of a reference in another context to a quarter horse. These horses are used on ranches in cuttung cattle from a herd and they do all the work, the cowboy is there only to use his rope on the steer that has been cut out. Polo ponies are used in a similar way, they run,pivot, turn, etc, so that the player can swing his mallet. The man doesn't have time to control the horse and he must rely on his horse's agility and experience to take him to where the action is. This places the allusion in a more positive light I believe. Kim is to be trained but is to use his natural talents for blending in whereever he is so that he can play the game of intelligence gathering and dissemination. He will not be on a leash but he will be trained in how to be part of the team. Polo, of course, developed in India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_pony
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 4
1."Who goes to the hills, goes to his mother". In this section, Kim and the lama are in the Himalayas. Which does Kipling describe more vividly: the crowded life of the plain, or the lonely rugged life of the hills. Which, if either, do you think will remain with you as a picture of India?
2. What are the Russian and Frenchmen up to?
3. What do you think of the Babu in action? How do the characters of each of the actors (Babu, the Russians, Kim, the lama, the hill people) contribute to the incident in the hills?
4. All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do you think elicits this?
5. Two women characters play important roles in this section. What role does each play? What motivates each?
6. Both Kim and the lama have mystical experiences. The lama's experience enables him to find his river. What does Kim's experience enable him to find? What is your reaction to these passages? What do you think happened?
7. When the lama explains his experience to Ali, the devout Muslim, Ali is conflicted. Why?
8. Mahbub Ali is relieved, when he sees that Kim, even after Enlightenment, can still work for the government. Is this true? There are two very different threads in Kim's life. What do you think his future will be? Will he be able to integrate them, or be forced to choose one path or the other?
Thanks for the reference to Polo. I read the article you suggestd and then followed the further links which illustrated the various points. The most important facts that I gleaned, as far as the metaphor to our book are as follows.
It takes time to produce a "MADE PONY" that loves to play the sport of polo.
Polo is played on a very large field, the largest of any sport, The game lasts about two hours but is brokren up into time periods of seven minutes each called chukkers. The rider changes horses after every chukker because of the demands put on the pony. Therefore the player must have a stable of ponies-not a single horse. Because of the wealth needed for this extravagance polo is known as the SPORT of KINGS.
The Lama does not want a stable of nimble ponies. He wants one chela he can share his knowledge with. He is in his own way a healer and Kim has picked up this fine quality from him.
I hope Kim chooses this path rather than that of spy for whoever is playing the Great Game. |
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I am constantly being surprised that the India of elephants and long-distance walkers is also the India of trucks, industry, factories. I wonder if Kipling was being facetious or ironic, when he spoke of men in
London developing an apparatus for “slicing into fractional millimetres the left eye of the female mosquito.”
Another interesting bit… Kim snaps his fingers to avert evil. Is that the origin of finger-snapping, I wonder? Now we use if to catch someone’s attention , ….somewhat rudely, IMO. Or to keep time to music.
I found this little tidbit in ‘Urban Dictionary’: "when a black girl does something and her friend tells her not to do it, sometimes they snap their fingers while they say it." That does sound like an ‘averting evil’ gesture, doesn’t it?
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JUDES: I agree. Although to horse lovers like Mahbib Ali and Creighton, being referred to as a pony probably doesn't have as much negative connotation as we would put on it.
I'm surprised at how the Game players take for granted their right to order Kim around. I forget that this book was written for children: children take for granted that their lives are arranged by grown-ups. As a child, I was probably thrilled that Kim took his holidays for himself.
Another thing surprised me in this section. I had assumed that the office of ethnological studies was purely a front for running the spy operation. But in this section, we learn that at least Creighton and Babu are serious ethnologists, who publish many papers and have professional ambitions in the field.
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The many references to "Red Hat" intrigued me. I wanted to see what the lama's dress was like with his Red Hat. Tibetan Buddhism is divided into four traditions, chronologically, beginning with with Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug. (Wikipedia doesn't explain this next part) The three earliest are grouped into a Red Hat category and the latest, Dalai Lama's tradition, is termed Yellow Hat. http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=1040.200;num_replies=202
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Jackie and Jude, thanks for the further info about quarter horses and polo ponies. I'm glad there is someone around who knows something about horses, because I certainly don't.
Jackie, your link to lamas misfired. Could you re-post it? Evidently the Red Hats are in the minority, at least at this time.
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I wonder if Kipling was being facetious or ironic, when he spoke of men in
London developing an apparatus for “slicing into fractional millimetres the left eye of the female mosquito.”
I don't know how Kipling meant it, but I was amused. It's a good example of how easy it is to make science look silly. But if you want to study insect eyes, you have to look at them under the microscope, which means you have to have very thin slices, which means you have to make a device like that.
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So Kim finishes up with Lurgan Sahib and goes back to school. We learn about his holidays,running free, spying with Mahbub Ali, going back to Lurgan. Finally he is set free "on special appointment", and can have 6 months freedom before serious assignments start.
Next comes the horrific and amusing scene with Huneefa. What do you think of it?
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Try this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism
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I am up to p332 in Hopkirk's The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia. Pages 329-332 are about the training given to native "explorers" in just the type of training that Kim has been getting. I need to check when this all came about exactly but the book is up to about 1868 at this point. Hopkirk says that a Captain Thomas Montgomerie came up with the idea to use natives rather than Englishmen for these clandestine survey and intelligence gathering missions.
They were trained at Survey headquarters in Dehra Dun in the Himalayan foothills. This training was apparently in operation for about 20 years. They often used the disguise of a Buddhist pilgrim carrying a 100bead rosary. Eight beads were removed to facilitate the mathematics (one complete circuit of the rosary was 10,000 paces). The prayer wheels were convenient for hiding written observations as well as a compass. Other concealed items the "Pundit" carried were a thermometer, sextants, and mercury.
Apparently very little is known about the individuals who participated. Hopkirk states, "It is in Kipling's masterpiece Kim, whose characters so clearly come from the shadowy world of Captain Montgomerie, that they have their just memorial."
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PatH, I can't imagine a tissue much thinner than a mosquito's eye! I
know very thin tissues are needed for microscope examination. From the book, I must suppose that an instrument capable of cutting such slices was invented about this time.
Interesting description of the Wheel of Life….the ‘Great Wheel’. It’s interesting that at the core of illusion are ignorance, anger and lust. I was thinking of other things that might have been included, but realized that they would likely fall under one of those three. More pertinent now, I think, is that while the original wheel was drawn simply by the Bodhisat, over the ages it evolved into a “wonderful convention crowded with hundreds of little figures whose every line carries a meaning”. I suspect that all the world’s religions have done something very similar with the teachings of their founder.
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Frybabe - thank you so much for the information on the Great Game. I had never heard of it - Kipling writes that "the Game never ceases day and night throughout India."
There are many players then? Who pays them? What do they get out of it? They put their lives on the line. Kim's talents are recognized by all with whom he comes in contact - they feel his services are needed - not as a "warrior" - but as a scribe.
Who is the enemy?
"The Great Game is a term used for the strategic rivalry and conflict between the British Empire and the Russian Empire for supremacy in Central Asia. "
If Kim's services are so badly needed at this time, why did they agree to let him spend six months on the Road with the lama? Do you get the feeling that Kim is a spy, planted out there on the Road with the lama? Isn't Kim already playing the Game? Is the lama part of the Game? Huree tells Kim that the lama is a "pure agnostic." Is Huree one to be trusted? Kim meets a man on the road who tells Kim that there are no Gods in Benares...and that all holy men are greedy. Now wait - is Kipling telling us something about the lama?
It is a coincidence that Kim is out on the Road with the lama - meeting the Russians
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Babi, I can just imagine the illustrative stories accumulating over the years, becoming part of the tradition. Kipling seems to love this kind of richness.
Frybabe, thanks for filling in on the further status of the Great Game, and Montgomerie's Survey, the model for Creighton's Ethnological Department.
More shortly.
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There are many players then? Who pays them? What do they get out of it? They put their lives on the line.
The English players, being a part of Creighton's Secret Service, would be paid with money from the British Government. Somewhere (can't find it right now) Kipling remarks that although the Department is meanly starved for money at least they don't have to account for it in detail.
Why do the spies do it? It has great appeal for some danger-loving types, including Kim. When he started practicing disguise with Lurgan Sahib, "...a demon in Kim woke up and sang with joy...."
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This, perhaps, is what the horsetrader and the others see in Kim -- that demon that draws him to this life. Can any of you feel it? Even a little bit?
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While I can participate vicariously with Kim in his adventures, I am personally too timid for the kind of risks he must take if he plays the game to its fullest.
Is the lama an agnostic? Not as fae as I can tell. The philosophy bits I sort of skim since my mind doesn't work that way. When I hear someone speak, as the man did who charged "there are no gods in Benares" and "all holy men are greedy", he is talking about himself, the lama is free of corruption and deceit. But then I'm a naif who finds it hard to really believe in evil.
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I am curious about Captain Thomas Montgomerie who may have been the inspiration for Creighton and/or Lurgan Sahib. (Montgomerie personally trained the native surveyor/spies.) It will take some doing. Not even Wikipedia says much about him. He was born in 1930 and died in 1878. I cannot find any info on cause of death. Montgomerie is the guy who named the second highest mountain in the Karakorums - K2.
In the meantime, I ran across this little article about one of the Pundits trained by Montgomerie. http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/sep10/articles5.htm
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While I can participate vicariously with Kim in his adventures, I am personally too timid for the kind of risks he must take if he plays the game to its fullest.
Me too, but we know from history that it's bread and meat to some few people. It can backfire, though. Look at E23; he's a mess, gulping down a handful of opium pills to get him through the crisis (or maybe feed an addiction).
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Frybabe, you were posting while I was writing. That's a nifty article. Joank is the mountaineering expert among us: Joan, what's this about Montgomerie naming K2? Nain Singh seems to have been lucky and clever enough to have survived and gotten recognition for his work, but, as the article says, "Although Nain Singh got the recognition he deserved late in life, it is difficult to imagine what drove such a man to carry out arduous and dangerous work like this, under conditions of near-impossibility, all for a starting salary of rupees twenty a month!"
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JoanP, I think the general perception was that 'holy men' were greedy.
We have found such in today's world, certainly. It is an area where
trusting people can more easily be imposed upon. But Kim knows that, and he has found his Lama to be an honest man. He was, in fact, astounded at the man's innocence and vulnerabiity.
Odd what little bits will catch one’s attention. Ex.: The description of the old Lama, “rubbing his hands and chuckling, till it pleased him to curl himself up into the sudden sleep of old age.” I had to smile, thinking how that is exactly the way of the small child, as well.
JACKIE, I cannot doubt there is evil; it is all too blatant. But I can
always remind myself that most people are good people, doing the best
they can.
He was born in 1930 and died in 1878.
Uh, FRYBABE, I assume that got reversed. :o
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No, it's a typo. Montgomerie's dates are 1830-1878. Kipling, born in 1865, would have known about him but probably not met him. Kipling seems to have expanded and prolonged the scope of Montgomerie's activities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_George_Montgomerie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_George_Montgomerie)
This very brief article doesn't even mention his espionage.
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Thank's for catching the typo Pat. I really think it is strange that there isn't more information about Montgomerie. Most of the other sources I have found don't add anything more than what Wikipedia has. Maybe Hopkirk's book will make mention of him further along.
I also looked up Dehra Dun home to the Survey headquarters and Pundit training (according to Hopkirk) hoping to find some old pictures. Dehra Dun is apparently a "college" town with numerous educational facilities that attract students from all over. Wikipedia makes no mention of the Survey in its' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehradun
I guess my next stop is to find books relating directly to a history of the Survey. There must be one or two about. I remember reading an article years back about surveying India without the political intrigue, of course.
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I agree with Jackie and Babi; the lama is deeply religious. He’s a pure Buddhist, very focussed on his religious quest.
What he also is, is one of the most convincing examples of simple goodness I’ve run across in literature. He sees no point in lying or dishonesty. There isn't a mean bone in his body. And he's awfully appealing.
Babi noticed him "curling up into the sudden sleep of old age". I noticed (when Kim comes to the Temple of the Tirthankars) "The lama turned to Kim, and all the loving old soul of him looked out through his narrow eyes."
And when they are traveling toward the house of the old woman, "...he (the lama) spoke of all his wanderings up and down Hind; till Kim, who had loved him without reason, loved him for fifty good reasons."
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Wow! Be sure and read FRYBABE's link: (post 215). Fantastic story. truth is stranger than fiction.
Doesn't it make you furious that the British paid the Indians so little, and kept them working with promises of maybe getting paid in the future. And we continue this: the Wickepedia article doesn't even mention the "natives" names.
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"It was in 1856, when the British were enforcing their control over India, provoking the 1857-War-of-lndependence, that a young Lieutenant of the Royal Engineers, T.G. Montgomerie, was quietly busy in surveying the mountains of Kashmir. During this survey he saw, in the far distance, a tall and conspicuous mountain in the direction of the Karakorams and immediately named it K1 ('K' stands for Karakorams). Later on, it turned out to be the beautiful mountain of Hushe valley in Khaplu area of Baltistan, called Masherbrum by locals. He also saw another tall and dominating summit behind K1 and named it K2, which turned out to be "Chogori". The name K2, however, still stands"
http://www.everestnews.com/k2history.htm (http://www.everestnews.com/k2history.htm)
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I'm still think of the experience of Nain Singh in Frybabe's link. Sneaking into Tibet under cover (would they have killed him if they'd known?) and suveying with his feet and his prayer beads. Estimating altitude exactly by the boiling temperature of water! Amazing!
We'll see in the next section, Kim going into the hills. It's not clear (to me anyway) whether he actually got into Tibet. He could have with the lama, but probably not. There is no mention of him counting off distances with prayer beads, though.
Notice that the surveying methods the English used were exactly those that Kim was taught. I wonder whether the Tibetans would have noticed that his prayer beads had 100 and not 108 beads.
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I read the suggested article and found it fascinating. It pushed me to look up "pundit". It is a Hindi word that means
"surveyor or Chain Man or-a learned man who gives opinions in an authorative manner."
Next I looked up Mahbub Ali . There was a famous sultan, born 1866 called Mahbub Ali Khan. By the i930's he was one of the richest men in the world! Although he is not an essential part of our story , Kipling must have known the name and the man's reputation and named the Afghan spy after him. Both were Muslims and followed Sharia law.
.By the way the last time I posted (first post on page 6) my name didn't appear on the side. i hope it does this time.
In case it doesnt I'll sign off with
JudeS
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Jude, the problem is that your post was the first one on the page. When that happens, in order to have the heading, with pictures and questions, at the top of the page, we have to insert it in your post. Your name is there, but it's way up at the top. If we take the alternative of making the heading the second post, no one notices your post above it.
New pages occur at posts divisible by 40. If you happen to notice that your post will be the 40th, you can post the word "heading" to save the spot, than write your post as the next one. But it's hard to notice, even the DLs forget.
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Did anyone notice the Lama's answer when asked where he got the money to pay for Kim's education? If I remember correctly he said the lamasery sent it without questioning why he needed it. Raised my eyebrows a little.
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Did anyone notice the Lama's answer when asked where he got the money to pay for Kim's education? If I remember correctly he said the lamasery sent it without questioning why he needed it. Raised my eyebrows a little.
Frybabe, that's very important. The lama must be a really big wheel back home. "In my own place I have the illusion of honor. I ask for that I need. I am not concerned with the account. That is for my monastery."
It also settles our earlier speculations about where the money came from.
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I agree with PAT; the lama must be a 'big wheel' back home. I doubt
every priest in 'his' monastery could have requested a large sum of
money and confidently expected it to be sent without question.
The sparseness of information about Montgomerie makes me wonder.
How many spies and spymasters do we hear a great deal about? After
a lifetime of secrecy, it might be hard to break the habit. Safer, too,
perhaps. The ones I've heard about have generally been those who
had already been 'busted'.
Another line I loved: “…as freethinking a metaphysician as ever split one hair into seventy.” We’ve all heard of splitting hairs, but that must be the most outre example I’ve ever read.
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It seems the lama was the "abbot" in his monastery back home - money was not a problem for him, though he probably lived his life frugally as he's living as a beggar on the Grand Turk Road. If he wanted money for Kim's education-- or for anything, he would have easy access to it.
From Frybabe's link -
In the last half of the nineteenth century, the British Survey of India made several abortive efforts to map the lands that lay beyond Tibet – but the emperor of China had closed the Tibetan border to foreigners, on pain of death. Several men of the Survey died in this attempt, until Thomas G. Montgomerie hit upon his brilliant solution – of sending in Indians, disguised as itinerant lamas to literally ‘spy out the land’1.,
I've been wondering about our lama - and his role in the Great Game. Do you think he's a player? I waffle back and forth. He says he has been waiting for Kim to come to him before continuing his Search...that he would not have gone on at all if Kim did not come. Kim is overjoyed to join him - but when he asks where they are going, lama rather enigmatically responds, " What does it matter?"
Kim loves the Great Game, feels he owes everything to his lama - but I'm not sure if the lama is part of the Game. He's a very wise man. Right now I feel that he might very well be in on the plan to go to the Hills even before Kim attempts to talk him into it.
I feel sorry for Kim if his lama is not being up front with him. He has no one now. He's seventeen, no longer a child cared for by Mahbub or St. Xavier's. The lama seems to depend on him.. Twice in this chapter we hear him speak of his loneliness -
"Meantime Kim, lonelier than ever, realizes he must look out for himself."
and then -
"I am Kim- Kim-Kim- alone in the middle of it all."
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Kim at 12 is truly orphaned--sort of looked after by a drug-addicted woman, no relation. He has been helping Mahbub with his horses since six years old, and is close to him when the horse dealer is in Lahore. So he's ready to hit the road when he finds this fascinating lama needs him as his chela--if he has no one to take care of him, he at least can take care of the lama--and that feels good.
Over the years he creates a life in which he is loved--by Mahbub and the lama and the old woman--respected by Lurgan and Creighton, Hurree and his school mates. Kim triumphs!
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In answer to quuestion #5 that you presented regarding the Hindu man who passes Kim and hears him question his inner identity the man says:
" I also have lost it"....
Then he continues
"Thou wast wondering there in thy spirit what manner of thing thy soul might be. The seizure came of a sudden. I know . Who should know but I? ..."
The book, underneath all of its adventures, colorful characters and religion is essentially a search for identity. That same search which each of us goes through in his or her teens and early twenties to figure out who we are and where we are going. Those who don't go through this process never really grow up and attain a unique identity that they have forged through trying out different ways of being wether in real life or in their heads.
The other point I noted while looking closely at this page is that the speakers use "thou" and "thy' and other biblical language which puts us in a certain mood . Kipling's use of language is one of the phenomenal points of this book.
I rushed along carried by the adventure whereas here I stopped and noticed each word.
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Over the years he creates a life in which he is loved--by Mahbub and the lama and the old woman--respected by Lurgan and Creighton, Hurree and his school mates. Kim triumphs!
Yes, he does, and he's not done yet. You've got to admire him for coming out of such a sordid life in such good shape.
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The book, underneath all of its adventures, colorful characters and religion is essentially a search for identity.
Yes, Jude, excellent and important point. And Kim's search for identity has an extra complication. He has to figure out how much of a Sahib he is. At times he says to himself "I am a Sahib", then he turns away and goes back to thinking in Hindustani.
I'm glad you are enjoying the language. Kipling was deliberately trying to catch the rhythm and spirit of the native speech. I didn't notice what a good job he did until I read some of it aloud to a friend. It's even more noticeable that way.
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JoanP, I don't want to spoil your suspense by saying anything about the lama as part of the Great Game. No suspense for me, since I've read the book before.
"I am Kim- Kim- Kim-" you picked up on that one too.
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Here we are at week 4 already! The new suggested questions are in the heading, but the old ones are still up at the top of the previous page. Again, we don't have to rush on. There are some good things still unsaid about section 3. Maybe I'll take up one of them,but I think I'll eat breakfast first.
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I was thinking about Kim feeling lonely. His closest "friends" are in and out of his life and are not constant companions. Not even his Lama. Could it also be, although nothing so far indicates it, that he is going through that stage where he discovers the opposite sex? He doesn't have any role models for stable family relationships does he.
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I really can't see the Lama as a player in 'The Game', JOAN. He is
set on finding release from the Wheel of Life. He has no interest in the
world's politics.
I think it is entirely in keeping with the Lama's views that he says,
"What does it matter", when asked where he is going. He doesn't know
where the river is that he seeks. He is simply confidant that he is being
led to find it, no matter where which direction they take.
I think we see more of Kipling in this statement: “…the clean pride of departmental praise---ensnaring raise from an equal of work appreciated by fellow workers.” Well, we’ve all experienced that pleasure, haven’t we?
Oops…. “..native police mean extortion to the native all India over.’ I don’t think I’m being unjust when I note that baksheesh, bribes in one form or another, have been routine and commonplace throughout Asia. I don’t think modern governments have managed to stop that. Can anyone correct me on that?
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Let me recommend again Laurie R King's The Game as a semi-sequel to Kim which seems to capture what-might-have-been very fittingly.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 4
1."Who goes to the hills, goes to his mother". In this section, Kim and the lama are in the Himalayas. Which does Kipling describe more vividly: the crowded life of the plain, or the lonely rugged life of the hills. Which, if either, do you think will remain with you as a picture of India?
2. What are the Russian and Frenchmen up to?
3. What do you think of the Babu in action? How do the characters of each of the actors (Babu, the Russians, Kim, the lama, the hill people) contribute to the incident in the hills?
4. All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do you think elicits this?
5. Two women characters play important roles in this section. What role does each play? What motivates each?
6. Both Kim and the lama have mystical experiences. The lama's experience enables him to find his river. What does Kim's experience enable him to find? What is your reaction to these passages? What do you think happened?
7. When the lama explains his experience to Ali, the devout Muslim, Ali is conflicted. Why?
8. Mahbub Ali is relieved, when he sees that Kim, even after Enlightenment, can still work for the government. Is this true? There are two very different threads in Kim's life. What do you think his future will be? Will he be able to integrate them, or be forced to choose one path or the other?
|
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Laurie King's The Game is waiting for me at the library in Sebastopol, California.
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The wonderful poetry before Chapters 12 and 13 describing the grandeur of the sea--"so and no otherwise Hill-men desire their Hills"--helped me to appreciate how much the lama loved his mountainous country.
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"I rushed along carried by the adventure whereas here I stopped and noticed each word."
Yes, this is one of the joys of reading a book slowly, over a month. And with others. What I go over, someone else notices, and we can savor the book slowly.
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I read "The Game", JACKIE, and thoroughly enjoyed it. The story takes
place 25 years later, and I found the older Kim most satisfactory.
4. All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing
him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do
you think elicits this?
My impression is simply that Kim is so full of life, so cheerful and
insouciant, that people jut naturally enjoy having him around. Then he
is intelligent, delights in a challenge, knows his way around. I'd be
very happy to find someone like that when I needed assistance.
ELIZABETH, I loved the poem at Ch. 14 so much I shared it with a couple
of other people.
My brother kneels (so saith Kabir)
To stone and brass in heathen-wise
But in my brother’s voice I hear
My own unanswered agonies.
His God is as his Fates assign --
His prayer is all the world’s - and mine.
The Prayer
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Did anyone find chapter 13, after Kim met up with Hurree Babu again, a bit disjointed? I am rereading it. Here are some interesting highlights. Now we know approximately where they are in their journey so far.
cadastral survey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadastre
Kedarnath and Badrinath are holy towns in the Chamoli district of Uttarakhand the shrines of which are dedicated to Lord Shiva. see map
http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/pocketmaps/road_maps/delhi-kedarnath.jpg
Here is a site for Kedarnath. A link to Badrinath is at the bottom.
http://www.char-dham.in/kedarnath.htm
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I think we see more of Kipling in this statement: “…the clean pride of departmental praise---ensnaring raise from an equal of work appreciated by fellow workers.” Well, we’ve all experienced that pleasure, haven’t we?
Indeed, Babi, though perhaps we deserved it even more than we got it ;)
The book is full of nifty phrases and one-liners. Does anyone have any particular favorites to share?
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Frybabe, those links help a lot. They are only about 20 miles from the border of China, to the northwest of Nepal. The Russians came from Leh,which is yet farther northwest.
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What will be Kim's future is the last question. Here is my opinion after trying to put myself in his shoes(or sandals).
The exciting job of that period was surveying. We have been told that Kim ,at school, was outstanding in Mapmaking and math. Surveying would give him the possibility of continued travel the possibility of meeting new people and seeing new places. He is after all "a friend to all the world".
At the same time Kim will never forget or completely abandon the Lama who is truly his only "true family". As the Lama is to Kim so is Kim to the Lama. They need each other and care for each other in a way that I can only see as familial. They fill a void that exists within each.
Will he also work for Mahbub Ali? That depends on how independent Kim becomes and what M.A. demands from him. As Kim grows and matures he will be less and less willing to be under the thumb of M.A. They may remain friends since M.A. sees and appreciates the grace and humor that Kim has within himself.
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That's very well thought out. Do others agree?
One quibble: the lama will probably die soon, as he predicts. How will Kim go on without him?
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Is is my imagination or was the Woman of Shamlegh "coming on" to Kim? ;)
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Yep. PatH and I were talking about this. This is a story written for boys, so of course there is no sex in it -- Kim evades her. There are hints elsewhere that perhaps he isn't as pure as he appears -- but they are brief.
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I had to laugh as Kim tried to use the "I'm a priest" excuse for not responding to the Woman's advances. He also feigned innocence regarding the significance of her walnut offering...Does anyone know what it was?
I'm at the seaside these days - room overlooks the sand and the surf...The sea means so much to me - as the Hills do to the lama. I haven't finished the book ..will read Chapter XIV on line as my book is back in Arlington.
I'll agree with those who believe that Kim will be his own man in the future. I think he's more clever and insightful than his friends in the Game.
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I just finished the book. If you ask me, it just begs for a sequel.
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the Woman of Shamlegh: Shamlegh is not a real place but the Woman of Shamlegh is a real person, whom Kipling knew or knew of. He had written about her experiences in an earlier short story. Her life is given there as described in Kim: she fell in love with a Sahib, who left, saying he would come back and marry her. He never did and she became bitter, although she married three husbands.
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The sea means so much to me - as the Hills do to the lama.
Amen, JoanP, I feel the same way about the sea, and it makes me understand "So and no otherwise, hill-men desire their hills."
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Here's the link to Kipling's short story that's the basis for the woman of Shamlegh:
Lispeth (http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/2478/)
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LOL, PAT. Very true. Appreciation at work is a rare experience, which
makes it all the more memorable.
Thanks for the links, FRYBABE. Seeing excellent photographs is the
next best thing to being there.
I was struck by Kim’s unthinking and immediate leap to attack the man who struck the Lama. He doesn’t just admire this old man, or owe him a debt. He loves him like a father.
Then, I find the image of Kim washing the old Lama’s feet very moving. There is a great tenderness and humility in this act. I cannot but think it is a good thing that he has this example of goodness in his life to balance the teachings of Creighton, Mahbub, and Lurgan.
It would not do, I think, to downplay the intelligence of Creighton, et
al. Only highly intelligent and capable men survive in their line of work.
Kim definitely fits in, but he does not necessarily surpass them.
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Interesting story, PatH. I also found it interesting that this man had come from Dehra Dun and that he, like the lama long ago, had received a cut his on head to the bone.
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Gee, Frybabe, I didn't even think of that.
Notice that the Woman of Shamlegh is the only one who realizes that Kim looks like a Sahib. She is looking at him from a different point of view than the others.
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Ah yes, and I forgot about THAT PatH.
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The Woman of Shamlegh shows Kim, and the world, that he has become a man in a fundamental way by becoming sexually mature. She is the third example of strong womanhood, in contrast to the Victorian stereotypical woman who is little better than a child. The first, those women who work on the roads, second is the lama's friend. Since Kim's life revolves around men and men's affairs the introduction of these women adds balance to Kim's experiences. Except for the lama these latter strong women are more clearly delineated than Kim's strong men. Kipling makes clear these women's expectations, their strengths and weaknesses, their social milieu. I find that i know little about the private lives of Mahbub, Creighton, and little more about Lurgan. No doubt my observation is gender-based. The Mars/Venus dyad.
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I just finished the book. If you ask me, it just begs for a sequel.
Maybe, after everyone has finished the book and we've discussed it some, we could speculate on what a sequel might be like.
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Jackie, I think that PatH and JoanK's revelation that Kipling wrote this book for boys explains why we don't read too much here of the women in the lives of the major characters. The only women we read about are those who interacted with Kim, all older women. It was interesting that this handsome boy who has so much freedom does not seem to have any girlfriends his own age - and he's seventeen years old. Perhaps because he is a Sahib and does not have a family to introduce him to young ladies of good amilies? There are several instances where Kim is described as a comely lad - and yet we don't hear of any female friends responding to those long eyelashes. I can't imagine a future for Kim.
The mention of the book being written for boys reminded me of something else I keep forgetting to bring here. My son requested Kipling's The Jungle Book for a Christmas present this year. He recently became my grandson's Cub Scout den leader. Our conversation led to the interesting fact that Kipling was a close friend of the founder of the Boy Scouts - Baden Powell. As Powell was creating his Scout handboook, he worked closely with Kipling - Kipling's Jungle Book is the basis for the Cub Scouts -
My four boys spend many years in scouting - David, the Cub Scout den leader now - made it to the top level, advancng only when deemed "ready" for the next rank until at 18 he was given top leadership responsibility and the rank of Eagle Scout.
There is so much in Kipling's Kim that reminds me of the steps of readiness and preparedness that my boys worked toward.
I appreciated the grueling hiking and climbing as Kim started to climb those "Hills" - sat up in amazement at the re-invigorated lama as he went higher and the going got toughter - and then watched as he seemed to wither and compress on the way down. I wish he could have stayed on there until he died - the place seemed to be where he belonged. But he hasn't found his healing River yet, has he? I'm thinking this is something everyone probably wants to do as the end draws near - make sure that we make amends before we go...
No, I haven't finished the book yet - will try to do that now. I've enjoyed seeing the new and improved, lean and mean Babu, waiting for Kim and the lama emerge with the all important books and papers. Do you think the fat was part of his disguise, or did he lose it in the harrowing experience in the Hills?
I find it slow going reading the online text...
Cannot tell you how much I have appreciated everyone's comments , insights and links - and the time and enthusiasm our Discussion Leaders have put into this discussion.
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BABI: I don't think Kim surpasses the others in intelligence, but perhaps he has a wider view of life. He enjoys the game, but he also sees other possibilities, because of the lama and his own personality.
In the scene where Kim attacks ,I was thinking that everyone acts according to their character. Was it the Russian or the frenchman who strikes the lama? In either case, he sees some old, dirty peasant blocking what he wants, and "Puts him in his place -- he has learned nothing from the hillmen deserting him. Kim would die, rather than let anyone hurt the lama -- as you said, he loves him and will always defend him. Babu manipulates the situation for his own ends.
But what do you think of the lama. As a holy man, he has probably never been struck. He does nothing, and tries to get Kim to leave it. but later, because he felt anger, he feels that he has sinned and brought about the evil. Does this make sense?
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JOANP: I feel the same way about the sea. Now for the first time in my life, I live 15 minutes away, and If I don't get there at least every two weeks, I start complaining.
Monday, it had been raining for days, but stopped in the afternoon and the sun came out. "We're going to the ocean" I told my son. It was wonderful -- the winds were blowing (I'll bet) gale force -- they were rocking my wheelchair. The waves were throwing up plumes of spray two stories high. Dan and I just clung to each other and laughed and laughed.
Come visit me -- I'll show you some beautiful beaches.
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While reading Hopkirk's The Great Game... I ran across a tie in with another novel I read a while back. One of the generals who campaigned, "The White General" Skobelev, got recalled and sent to Minsk. It seems that the Tsar felt he was getting too big for his britches and had designs on the throne. While visiting a brothel, he died. Speculation had it that he was poisoned.
In Boris Akunin's The Death of Achilles his General, very popular with his soldiers, was also feared to have designs on the throne. He too died of poison after visiting a prostitute. His name was Sobolev in the novel. Akunin's Fandorin novels are set late in the Great Game era. I am now wondering if his character participated at some point since he was supposed to have been in the far east before returning to Moscow.
When next I read a Fandorin novel, I will take more notice of circumstances and the political unrest that Akunin portrays.
The last of the major Great Game plays was in 1904 according to Hopkirk. So from beginning to end The Great Game spanned a period of slightly over 100years.
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JACKIE, your reference to strong womanhood brings up a statement that made me curious. “He accepted the compliment calmly, as men must in lands where women make the love.” ??
What a bewildering statement to insert so off-handedly into the text.
No lead-in, no explanation. Has anyone here had the impression that in
India, 'women make the love'?
JOANP, I suppose Kipling felt that the facts of life for teen-age boys
probably should be avoided in a book intended for youngsters. Especially
in those days. Personally, I don't for a minute believe Kim has arrived
at the age of 16 still virginal.
Kipling's Jungle Book qs the basis for the Cub Scouts - Now that is
fascinating, JOAN. I'd never heard that, yet the Jungle Book would be
such an inspiration for developing wilderness skills.
You're right, of course, JOANK. Kim's association with the Lama does
give him a broader outlook; other possibilities. He will be better able
to make choices when the time comes.
On your question; for a Buddhist lama, feeling anger would be an evil
thing. But I also had a hard time understanding how he could blame
himself. One would probably need to be Buddhist to really understand.
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Babi, I doubt that "women make the love" in India too, but although technically in India, this hill country seems to have a different culture, more like Tibet or Nepal. The women have several husbands, and the men seem to be subordinate, so I can well believe that women take the lead. Why Kim is familiar with this is another question. Either he has good instincts or Kipling is being sloppy.
I agree that Kim isn't likely to be virginal. His friendships with ladies of light reputation are mentioned, and he knows the convention of the walnuts (or almonds).
Jackie, I hadn't thought of it, but that's a good point. The Woman of Shamlegh and the old lady are very fully described. The old lady is certainly a hoot, isn't she?
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There have been attempts to create sequels to Kim (so I read on Google).
Laurie R King in a novel set in1924 sends Sherlock Holmes her creation, Mary Russel, to India to rescue a mature Kim The book is also related to Conan Doyles "The Adventure of the Final Problem".
T. J. Murai wrote two novels: The Imperial Agent (1987) and The Last Victory (1988) following Kim as an adult. They focus on Kim's struggle to reconcile his Indian roots with his loyalty to the British.
There are also many Sci-Fi authors who took inspiration from the book. They are too numerous to mention. This fact bowled me over since early on I mentioned my feeling that the atmosphere had for me, something of another world-perhaps even Sci -Fi. I find out that I was not alone in that feeling.
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JUDE: the Sci-Fi connection is interesting. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that PatH, who loves Sci Fi, loves this book.
Several of us have read Laurie King's book, The Game (it's part of a mystery series featuring Mr. and Mrs. Sherlock Holmes). But has anyone read Murai's books?
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Strange but true...Except for Isaac Asimov I don't like Sci-Fi books. However I do like good Sci-Fi Movies. As I think back on this novel (Kim) I realize that because of Kiplings wonderful sense of time and place I was picturing each scene in my Minds eye. Like a movie more than a novel.
I also used to watch with my son, Dr. Who (Sci-Fi) British Television series, which I believe has run for over TWENTY FIVE years. If anyone knows this series and remembers Tom Baker as Dr. Who, she will remember the feeling that he, like Kim , was of this world and not of it. i.e. two forces of place, time and identity warring within oneself.
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My library's catalog has no listing for T J Murai. Googling by author's name and the two book titles failed to find a match also.
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The article in Google misspelled the authors name for "The Agent" (i987). The correct spelling is Timeri Murari.
It is available on Amazon for 0.01 cents.
The plot is as follows. Kim is employed by the British as a secret agent. When a mistake is made that brings about the death of an innocent Indian , Kim sets out to rectify the mistake. The reviewer gave it high marks for colorful characters, intrigue and romance. The story also deals with the warring loyalties within Kim and how he deals with them.
I think I may be starting a new page so I will sign off with my name....
JudeS
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I can't see the 'sci-fi' here at all. The background is a country that exists, and none of the action or objects are advanced science, much
less science fiction. The story does take us to a different time and place,
but many books do that for me.
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JUDES: "he, like Kim , was of this world and not of it".
Very well put for Kim!! In my opinion, it's not only the lama that gives Kim a wider outlook. Sociologists talk about people who, for some reason, are on the edges of a society. They often see more than those who are in the middle. Kim is but is not a sahib. He is part of the society around him but always knows that he is not. Such people often become observers, not completely immersed in what is going on around them.
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Joan: Exactly. kim's "intelligence" is real but those who see more and see differently may seem more intelligent, viz: the one-eyed man in the country of the blind. It is as if kim has senses that others lack, allowing him to see relationships, causes, consequences, solutions which are invisible to his companions.
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"It is as if Kim has senses that others lack, allowing him to see relationships, causes, consequences, solutions which are invisible to his companions"
Jackie, I'm reading these posts - and now yours - and get the impression that Kipling wrote Kim as a sort of superhero for boys - with powers mere mortals do not have. One can always be confident that Kim will not be outsmarted by the shrewdest horsedealer or the most beautiful older woman who is willing to do anything for this extraordinary 17 year old.
I'm not sure Kipling has suggested that Kim is "experienced" with the opposite sex...but he does seem to have acquired wisdom beyond his years -
"How can a man follow the Way or the Great Game when he is eternally pestered by women."
To me, that's the question I found most interesting here ...can you play the Great Game of life with all the attractions on the Road and still focus and follow the Way?
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I think that a man can be pestered by (a) woman when he simply becomes aware of her. Else why are Muslim men so intent on hiding their women behind veils? However when Kim is so blatantly pursued by the Woman of Shamlegh he is sure to feel pestered!
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On a related note, look at this quote: “Thou canst not choose freedom and go in bondage to the delight of life.”
Isn’t it true that for many Westerners, especially the young, the “delight of life” is considered to be freedom? And how often has it happened that those ‘delights’ become a bondage from which it is very hard to break free?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 4
1."Who goes to the hills, goes to his mother". In this section, Kim and the lama are in the Himalayas. Which does Kipling describe more vividly: the crowded life of the plain, or the lonely rugged life of the hills. Which, if either, do you think will remain with you as a picture of India?
2. What are the Russian and Frenchmen up to?
3. What do you think of the Babu in action? How do the characters of each of the actors (Babu, the Russians, Kim, the lama, the hill people) contribute to the incident in the hills?
4. All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do you think elicits this?
5. Two women characters play important roles in this section. What role does each play? What motivates each?
6. Both Kim and the lama have mystical experiences. The lama's experience enables him to find his river. What does Kim's experience enable him to find? What is your reaction to these passages? What do you think happened?
7. When the lama explains his experience to Ali, the devout Muslim, Ali is conflicted. Why?
8. Mahbub Ali is relieved, when he sees that Kim, even after Enlightenment, can still work for the government. Is this true? There are two very different threads in Kim's life. What do you think his future will be? Will he be able to integrate them, or be forced to choose one path or the other?
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#2 - The Russian and the Frenchman were essentially doing the same thing as the chain men for the Brits were doing. Mapping the region, scoping out the mood of the locals and their defences, finding the best routes to areas of interest including the ultimate goal, India. The Frenchman must have been an adventurer in the employ of the Russians. I don't think they French or Germans played a very big roll in the Great Game except near the end when the Russians started getting close to the Prussian territories. The Germans and French both had their spies in Moscow at the least.
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On a related note, look at this quote: “Thou canst not choose freedom and go in bondage to the delight of life.”
Isn’t it true that for many Westerners, especially the young, the “delight of life” is considered to be freedom? And how often has it happened that those ‘delights’ become a bondage from which it is very hard to break free?
for a Buddhist lama, feeling anger would be an evil
thing. But I also had a hard time understanding how he could blame
himself. One would probably need to be Buddhist to really understand.
Yes, Babi, "delights" can become a bondage.
Another meaning of "delight of life" feeds into my problem with Buddhism. I love the richness of life, both good and bad, love and happiness, but sorrow too (I'd gladly do without sorrow, but it's part of the fabric), exciting and complex ideas, etc.
For a Buddhist, the way to freedom is to recognize all of this as bondage, and rid oneself of it, eventually becoming completely detached, and one with the infinite. The lama blames himself for feeling anger because it's backsliding for him.
I'm definitely not ready for this kind of freedom--obviously still in bondage.
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Frybabe, I too wondered why Kipling made one of the spies a Frenchman. It does have the advantage that they talk to each other in French, which the Babu understands when they aren't going too fast, rather than Russian.
What a treasure the contents of the kilta would be! The maps were probably of areas the British hadn't yet covered, and the political documents would be further ammunition against the rebellious local chiefs, some of whom were seen in the earlier war.
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In his "Quest for Kim:In Search of the Great Game" - Peter Hopkirk addresses the matter of why Kipling introduced a Frenchman - as a villain in the piece, considering the fact that he was a life long Francophile.
I'll try to put up the passage in which he discusses the Frenchman's presence in the story - not sure this will work -
It seems in the early 1800's there had been a French threat to India - even the prospect of a joint invasion by the French and Russians...let me try to put up the passage discussing the riddle of the presence of the Frenchman in Kim -
From a passage in Hopkirk's passage - Who is Babu? (http://books.google.com/books?id=4WWUciM2_I0C&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=why+then+did+Kipling+make+one+of+his+villains+a+Frenchman&source=bl&ots=mEF4x8F7nV&sig=IxHRZvaCS2Pazn4Er0XA_9E1JIk&hl=en&ei=b7xhS8rMAtKwlAekpsDoCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#)
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So the spectre of Napoleon is still haunting the Brits 90 years later. Thanks, that is logical and would not have needed an explanation to those British schoolboys who would have studied Napoleon quite extensively.
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JoanP, Thanks, that clears that up. Yes, you could say that the great game began with Napoleon's deals with Russia, which didn't produce much in the way of practical results, and the French were then out of it for a long time.
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There are also many Sci-Fi authors who took inspiration from the book. They are too numerous to mention. This fact bowled me over since early on I mentioned my feeling that the atmosphere had for me, something of another world-perhaps even Sci -Fi. I find out that I was not alone in that feeling.
Jude, thanks for pointing out the sci-fi connection; it surprised me. I'm not a good judge of the atmosphere, since I first read Kim as a child, when you swallow things whole, and the atmosphere was just part of what I grew up with. In a way, I'm sorry I'm not reading it for the first time. I'm guessing that this is the article you found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_(novel) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_(novel))
There are some surprises, like Heinlein, and I certainly want to look at the Poul Anderson and the Tim Powers.
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Ah, yes. I forgot about Napoleon. That was early in the game. Does that mean that Kim is set early in the game? The Brits didn't start training natives as chain men until later.
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Joan
Thanks so much for that reference from Hopkirk. I read about ten pages of his explanations. Although they illuminate all the mute points I wondered about I felt that I was reading Kipling "light".
. Sort of like reading "classic comics" as a child.That is where I got to know The Count of Monte Cristo, The Three Musketeers, Moby Dick etc.etc. Somehow all the facts are there but the magic language is missing.
Some of Kipling's passages at the end of the book are really full of serious philosophy and not meant for children. I'm not sure Kipling wrote the book only as an adventure book for young boys. The book was serialized in two different adult magazines before being published in book form.
This book is very different from Kipling's books for children-"Just-So Stories" etc.
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Another meaning of "delight of life" feeds into my problem with Buddhism.
I love the richness of life, both good and bad, love and happiness, but
sorrow too (I'd gladly do without sorrow, but it's part of the fabric),
exciting and complex ideas, etc.
PAT, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think any human being can
truly divorce themselves from caring unless they totally isolate
themselves from other humans. Which, to a degree, they are trying to do
in a monastic life. Unless, of course, they are sociopaths. The old Lama
cannot help caring about Kim, and he is obliged to see this as a
weakness.
Speaking of his younger days, the Red Lama says, “I did not seek truth in those days, but the talk of doctrine”. It has occurred to me before now, that emphasis on doctrine can often obscure, or even twist, truth.
The old lama blessing his land, in detail, “as a dying man blesses his folk”. That casts a shadow, doesn’t it? He is a very old man, and
I think he knows he is dying. What will this do to Kim?
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Speaking of his younger days, the Red Lama says, “I did not seek truth in those days, but the talk of doctrine”. It has occurred to me before now, that emphasis on doctrine can often obscure, or even twist, truth.
I agree, it can accumulate like barnacles on a ship, and obscure the basic meaning underneath.
The old lama blessing his land, in detail, “as a dying man blesses his folk”. That casts a shadow, doesn’t it? He is a very old man, and I think he knows he is dying. What will this do to Kim?
The lama takes the rip in his drawing of the wheel, only a tiny bit not torn apart, as a sign that he has very little time left. We don't see him die in the book, but surely it will be devastating for Kim. How will it affect him, and what will he do? I'm uncertain, what about you?
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The Lama may die but he is forever inside Kim in his heart and mind. His memory will accompany Kim on his chosen path and will help him make difficult decisions.
The Lama is actually preparing Kim for the fact that he may not live much longer. Therefore each moment that they spend together now is important.
Kim has lost both his Mother and Father. He knows about loss. But he also knows how to survive in the face of loss. Therefore there is a streak of sadness within him but it is covered by the need to show strength and intelligence in the face of adversity.
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This is backtracking, but I’d like to wrap up the fable of the two elephants. The lama told this to the Jains in the Temple of the Tirthankars during his stays with them while Kim was in school, but he also dreamed it the night that Kim found the Red Bull—it was sort of his marching orders.
The lama calls it a Jataka. My footnote says: a Jataka is a story of one of the Buddha’s previous births. There are hundreds of them, many in the form of fables and folk tales, said to be the source of much of Aesop’s and La Fontaine’s fables and the Arabian Nights. They were probably passed to Europe at the time of the Crusades, via Greeks and Arabs. They were already sacred writings by 200 B. C.
The lama’s Jataka tells of an elephant, suffering from a painful leg iron, that none of his fellows can remove. He finds a newborn, orphaned, calf, and protects it and cares for it. When the calf grows up, he notices the leg iron, and asks what it is. "It is my sorrow." The calf breaks the iron with his trunk, saying "The appointed time has come". The calf was the Buddha, and the elephant was Ananda, Buddha’s cousin and devoted follower.
The lama applies this to himself. Kim is the calf, who must be nurtured to maturity, after which, at the appointed time, they will find the River together, and "the Search is sure". (Note that the lama had already, almost instantly, decided to pay for Kim’s education before he thought of all this.)
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I wonder if the Lama also sees Kim as the one who breaks the 'iron' that
holds him? He has always insisted that Kim was sent to him to lead him
to his River of deliverance. That would be a natural fit to the jataka.
Thanks for the explanation of a jataka, PAT. I always feel as though
I've been given a present when learn something new.
It appears that the Buddhist faith has 38 Beatitudes, but I haven’t been able to discover precisely what they are. I'll look some more. (Just
curious.)
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I wonder if the Lama also sees Kim as the one who breaks the 'iron' that
holds him?
Yes, Babi, that's what I think too.
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PBS is presenting a series on the History of India. I saw the first two episodes (one hour each) and they have just reached the era of the Buddha. It is well worth watching since it makes clear many unanswered questions that are related to the history and geography of the country. The series is called The Story of India. The whole series can also be bought as a DVD on their website .
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Thanks, Jude. Will look for it next - as I have come to the end of Kipling's story - and am left with a number of unanswered questions.
Wasn't that the perfect parallel, Pat! The orphaned calf - nurtured by the elephant until he realizes that the elephant is fettered by the leg iron - and sets him free.
The orphan Kim, follows the lama until he realizes that he must now be the strong one if the lama is to reach the healing waters and be freed from his sorrow. This feels familiar - the young caring for aging parents.
I've been thinking of the question concerning Kim's future - after the lama departs this life. The lama seems to be preparing Kim for the near future - by telling him repeatedly that he is a Sahib. Kim is uncomfortable hearing this. "Thou has told me there is neither black nor white. I am not a Sahib, I am thy chela." But the lama insists that is who he is.
I took this as an indication that Kim will find his identity as a Sabib in the future.
When Kim requested the box with a lock - and put away Mahbub's pistol, the letters, books and diaries - "with a groan of relief"
I saw him locking away his participation in the Great Game. He looked upon that prized box as a " burden incommunicable"
. Certainly he does not look upon these objects with the same delight the Babu does.
What has happened while Kim was massaged into that long drug-induced sleep?
He "felt ...that his soul was out of gear with its surroundings."
"I am Kim. I am Kim. And what is Kim?"
What has happened while Kim slept? Has he been abandoned?
What happened to the lama while Kim slept? He has gone on into the wilderness - alone? Why not wait for Kim?
He found the healing waters - but wait, Babu has fished him out.
As Kim sleeps yet again on the earth, the lama and Mahbub come upon him together. In answer to Mahbub's question, the lama tells him that the pilgrimage will be over that night that he and his chela will be cleansed from sin and then set free from the Wheel of Things.
Mahbub presses the lama for information about what will happen to Kim once this happens. Lama tells him that Kim will then be enlightened - that he will be a teacher, a scribe. Mahbub agrees with him.
Wasn't that an amusing moment when the lama asks Mahbug to follow the Way himself - and accompany Kim? Maybe later, he says. He leaves.
The lama wakes Kim to tell him that the Search is finished - that it is time for the reward. I would really like to hear how you all understood what had happened to the lama. He had fasted and suddenly his soul loosed itself from his body and became free. It sounded to me as if he had died. Like an eagle from on high, he saw his whole pass life before him. His soul had passed "beyond Space, Time and Things."
But wait - what will become of the boy if he leaves him there alone? He has not yet found the Way.
So he fought his way back - to the River, plunged into it - and cleansed himself - and in so doing, has saved himself - and Kim too.
I can't help but think that Kim still has to save himself. I do see a parallel here to the story of the Redemption of the cross, saving mankind....but am not sure this is what Kipling was saying here. If not this, what was he saying?
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After reading four articles on Kipling and Religion (Google) I am pretty sure that the Lama is not standing in for Christ.
I will quote two quotes that I jotted down from those articles.
"Kipling never subscribed to any particular religous belief ."
"Kiplings religion was very peculiar, and I am not sure that anyone has got to the bottom of it".
In general it seems that he was influenced by Buddhism, Hinduism and the Church of England. On the cleansing in the river
someone mentions that it would satisfy the Hindus, the Buddhists and the Baptists.
If I had to give a personal guess I would say that the Lama is covering all his bases in trying to protect Kim-both religous and not religous bases. It is like a good Father saying "I have done all I can for you and now it is up to you to make a go of your life. Make decisions that are wise for you and do not give in to defeat. "
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What a bummer! For a January, the time sure flew by fast.
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We've still got a few gasps left. Today's supposed to be the last day, but the discussion can be kept open longer if people are still talking. Either way, let's consider some final points.
We've talked a little about the lama's mystical experience, but there's more to say. What has happened here, what does it mean, and what does the lama think will happen now?
Kim has had his own experience. He is recovering from his physical sickness, but he feels disjointed and disoriented. He sits there, saying "what is Kim?", and suddenly everything seems to snap into place. He lies down on the ground to get strength from the earth, and sleeps for hours. What has happened? Does he know the answer to his question? Do we?
What path will the characters take now? The lama's road is almost finished, but what about Kim? He has two paths in front of him; which will he choose, or will it be a combination of both? Do you think Kipling had a definite answer in mind, or was he, too, weighing the possibilities but not committing himself?
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I hadn't thought of it, JOANP, but the Lama did need to emphasize to Kim his sahib origins. The Lama is dying, and Kim will no longer be his chela. He needs to begin making that mental adjustment.
The precious box of documents was a heavy burden for such young
shoulders. It was a great relief to Kim to pass it on. I think, tho',
that he also feels a sense of accomplishment. He is very good at this
'game', and it's very hard to turn your back on something you do very
well.
I didn't think that long sleep was entirely drug-induced. Kim was
exhausted to the point of illness. The massage, the drug, were aids
to healing and much needed rest.
The Lama needed to meditate on what to do next, and went off by
himself to do so. He found the freedom he had been seeking, but could
not leave Kim as he was. He returns for Kim's sake, and once Kim is
safe the Lama is ready to die.
Kim has become well grounded in both the teachings he has received.
I think he would be able to continue to follow both paths. Not, of course,
the renunciation of the world that the Lama strived for, but the simple
way of life, the customs of meditation and prayer. I see a future Kim
as a well-balanced, extremely capable man, continuing in his interest in
people and loyalty to his commitments. And cheerful curses, of course.
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"And cheerful curses, of course".
Of course!
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Did anyone else notice that the lama needed water to reach his goal, while with Kim, it was earth. This reminded me of having heard people say that in each person, one of the four elements of the Greeks (earth, air, fire, water) predominates. As far as I know this is a Western, not an Eastern concept. But I wonder if Kipling believed it, and was noting the differences in the lama and Kim's character?
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I'm taking a wild stab here, but I can't help believing that Kipling had dabbled in Eastern mysticism, and that when he had the lama say "I have never (before) acheived that", he was talking about himself, with some wistfulness. I am reminded of TS Eliot in "The Wasteland", having acheived one mystical experience and searching in vain for another.
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I thought it interesting that when Kim threw the survey instruments down the cliff at Shamlegh that he hesitated. He would have liked to keep them but he thought that they would be hard to hide sufficiently. The papers he was sooooo glad to get rid of.
I don't see Kim teaching in a traditional classroom or teaching Buddhism - at least not until he is much older. The Survey, at the moment, would continue to provide a steady income and a chance to travel (with or without the intrigue). Babi put it very well:
Kim has become well grounded in both the teachings he has received.
I think he would be able to continue to follow both paths. Not, of course,
the renunciation of the world that the Lama strived for, but the simple
way of life, the customs of meditation and prayer. I see a future Kim
as a well-balanced, extremely capable man, continuing in his interest in
people and loyalty to his commitments.
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Thank you all. January did go by surprisingly quickly--my least favorite month. Here in Northern California some of our February days will be spring-like.
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Here in Maryland, we have five inches of snow on the ground and it only got up into the twenties today.
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We have the 20s but not the snow up in PA (Harrisburg area). How did we miss that? !
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This is the last day, but we will leave the site open for any further comments. I've enjoyed this discussion hugely: as always you all are intelligent, insightful, and fun.
See you in the other discussions.
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Interesting thought, JoanK. You might look into Kipling's life and see
if you can find what you suspect.
The reference to the lama's need for water is plain, but I'm not sure
what you mean by Kim needing 'earth'. If we have time, could you explain
that?
JOAN & PAT, thank you so much. I greatly enjoyed re-reading Kim, and
the discussion added so much. Thank you for a lovely, lively time.
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The reference to the lama's need for water is plain, but I'm not sure
what you mean by Kim needing 'earth'. If we have time, could you explain
that?
We have whatever time we want.
The strength of earth completes Kim's healing process. After things snap back into place for him, he wanders out. The Sahiba says:"Let him go. I have done my share. Mother Earth must do the rest."
Kim lies down on the bare earth. "And Mother Earth was as faithful as the Sahiba. She breathed through him to restore the poise he had lost lying so long on a cot cut off from her good currents. His head lay powerless upon her breast, and his open hands surrendered to her strength. The many-rooted trees above him...knew what he sought, as he himself did not know. Hour upon hour he lay deeper than sleep."
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I didn't mean to say we had no time. Pat and I aren't going anywhere, if you all have more to say.
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Oh, of course, PatH. I had forgotten that. How could I?!! I thought it a
beautiful passage.
No, no, you didn't say we had no more time, JOAN. It was simply that I
could see we were winding up and didn't know how much longer we did have.
You and Pat have been wonderful and unfailingly responsive. Bless you!
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Well, looks like we're all done. I'll get the discussion locked soon, and archived shortly after.
I've really enjoyed sharing a book I liked with you. It's my first time as the main leader of a discussion, rather than co-leader, and I couldn't have asked for a better group, interested, lively, and creative.
See you in the other discussions.
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Thank you, Pat - and Joan. Hopefully it was a good experience for you both as DLs - as much as it was for the rest of us to spend this month with you. See you again...and again!
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It was great!! See you again ... and again.