Fairy Tales & Their Tellers~From the Beast to the Blonde~August Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

 

On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~  August  Book Club Online

 
 Source Book:
* From the Beast to the Blonde by Marina Warner  

Marina Warner's  From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and  comprehensive study of the changing  cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them.  The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories.  Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.") Warner's book is huge.  We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories  and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness.

If you are unable to get your hands on this book, not to worry.   The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those fortunate enough to locate   Warner's book can share the commentary with the rest of us.

For Your Consideration - Week 4  ~ August 23-31

1. What do you think? Can we call Hans Christian Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?"

2. Have you ever read The Little Mermaid?
Why do you think Andrew Lang included previous tales Andersen wrote about mermaids in his colour books, but not this one?
 
3. What did you think of the Grimms' treatment of The Little Mermaid - after reading Andersen's stories Lang included in his pink and brown Colour Fairy Books? - Hans the Mermaid's Son   AND
TheMermaid and the Boy  

4. What do you think was the message behind the story?  The moral? Was this a fairy tale?  Did it have a happy ending?

5. Do you want to nominate a favorite fairy tale or one that you haven't read yet for discussion here in the coming days while we are still together?

6. Have you read The Twelve Months or do you remember   Snow White and Rose Red ?  What determines the difference between these two sets of sisters?

Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books; Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales ; A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell"   ; Little Red Riding Hood   (Charles Perrault - 1697); Little Red Riding Hood   (Brothers Grimm - 1812); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ); Charles Perrault's Cinderella;the Brothers Grimm ~ Cinderella, 1812; the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella;   earlier  version- Cinder Maid ;   the 9th century Chinese Cinderella ; Giambatista  Basile's Sleeping Beauty - (The Sun, the Moon and Talia)1657;
History of Sleeping Beauty - from Arthurian legend Perceforest 1567; Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood  1697 ;
Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty;   The Little Mermaid, Grimm, Andersen;Hans the Mermaid's Son (Lang's Pink Fairy book - Andersen   -
TheMermaid and the Boy  (Lang's Brown Fairy book- Andersen;   The Twelve Months ; Snow White and Rose Red


 

Discussion Leader:  JoanP with JoanR, Guest DL

[JoanP]

 


Maybe another word for "curious" is "nosey" - what do you think, Marcie?  Bluebeard is looking for a wife who will keep out of his business and tend to her own affairs.  Is that the message of the tale?

Ella - I read the article on Bluebeards's castle - somehow I didn't put the two together - Bluebeard the pirate and Bluebeard the fine, rich gentleman Perrault describes!  Of course - Bluebeard! And YOU and Dick actually went to his castle - (did you look for the rooms where he kept the ...wait!  Was this a true story?

Here'a little clip of the movie - said to be written from t feminist point of view - If you look closely, you can see the castle - Ella, is it the same one that you visited?

Bluebeard, the story of a poor girl who wanted more

[JoanP]

Some of you have been unhappy and disillusioned to know of the history of some of the most beloved tales.  I know that now.  Starting Sunday, let's try to concentrate on tales that seem to be written for children - with no underlying hidden messages for adults.  Where's Dean69 - we might start with Wizard of Oz?  Dean refers to it as the first American fairy tale.

Perhaps if we had stayed with Grimm we would have had a more pleasant experience on memory lane.  (Personally I found the older versions fascinating, but certainly didn't want to upset the rest of you.)

If you read Grimms's version of the Sleeping Beauty - now that you know what Perrault and Basile wrote, what is your reaction to the story?  Is this the one that you grew up loving?

Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty

What an ending!  No rape, no adultery - just plain romance!  Not even a moral at the end of this story!

"There she lay and was so beautiful that he could not take his eyes off her. He bent over and gave her a kiss. When he touched her with the kiss Little Brier-Rose opened her eyes, awoke, and looked at him kindly.

They went downstairs together, and the king awoke, and the queen, and all the royal attendants, and they looked at one another in amazement. The horses in the courtyard stood up and shook themselves. The hunting dogs jumped and wagged their tails. The pigeons on the roof pulled their little heads out from beneath their wings, looked around, and flew into the field. The flies on the walls crept about again. The fire in the kitchen rose up, broke into flames, and cooked the food. The roast began to sizzle once again. The cook boxed the boy's ears, causing him to cry, and the maid finished plucking the chicken.

And then the prince's marriage to Little Brier-Rose was celebrated with great splendor, and they lived happily until they died. "

JoanR - will get to Donkeykins and other evil men stories as soon as I can.  Thank you for searching them out for us...

[JoanR]

Of, no!  I don't need to pursue the evil men!  I only brought them up because there was a question about them!  It has always been a case of more, many more , evil stepmothers, etc. than men.  Probably due to a patriarchal society - do you think?
Some of the worst are found in Grimm - i.e.  The Robber Bridegroom.
 By the way, was the Beast in" Beauty and the Beast" falling into the evil category?  Not so, he was kind, gentle and generous with his good heart hidden in a bestial shape.  I suppose the lesson was that we shouldn't judge by appearances - the beggar may be a prince!!

Most (all?) of the tales do have a message, I think.

[marcie]

Ella, What a funny association to have with Bluebeard! Thanks for sharing that humorous memory. I'm sure it wasn't quite as funny at the time 

[Steph]

Been reading some of the posts, but think I will just start here and not worry about the previous stuff.

[ursamajor]

I have always associated Bluebeard with Henry VIII.  The pirate and oriental potentate allusions surprised me.  I suppose the story predates Henry by at least a hundred years, but his historical behavior was so dreadful this just seemed to fit.  I also think this was a cautionary tale - moral being "don't meddle in your husband's business".  The happy ending always seemed contrived to me.  Old Henry died in his bed of natural causes and his eighth queen was much relieved!

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANP, I cannot remember the castle at all at the top of the hill in St. Thomas, isn't that funny.  Perhaps because the way there was such an adventure.  We ate dinner up there somewhere and I think that might be the restaurant where I ordered some kind of fish and it arrived on my plate whole - head, tail, whole!  What to do with the thing?  Did I hide it in my purse, I can't remember what we decided to do with that either!  

I just haven't revisited fairy tales for so many years, but I do remember my favorites and you are right in one of your posts when you said that the evil ones (the ones I remember) were female.  Why were they?  Hansel and Gretel, one of my favorites.  Little Red Riding Hood.  Cinderella.  Goes on and on.  

But they were written by men?  Were they?

[JoanP]

Ursa, do you remember when we started out in this discussion we tried to come up with a definition of a fairy tale ?  Did we? Or did we decide it was too difficult to pin it down.  Kidsal found this article -
  What is a fairy tale anyway? - the author says she can't define it but knows it when she sees it.

JoanR - found the this definition in the Oxford Companion that cleared it up for her -
 “While fairy tales and fantasy are doublessly related.. Their origins are quite different.  Fairy tales have their roots in archaic society and archaic thought, thus immediately succeeding myths."   Fantasy literature is a more recent genre and owes its origins mostly to romanticism. ... " it’s a conscious creation where authors choose the forms which suit them best. "
 We were not able to answer the question whether a fairy tale has to have a happy ending or not.  I think we concluded that many (most?) do - but that it ain't necessarily so.

Did Bluebeard need a happy ending?  I think so.  Even though it seemed contrived as you say, the young wife needed to go on with her life with a more suitable mate.  I suppose it needed that moral too - no snooping!   (Do you snoop?  I do.  Would you have been able to stay away from that one locked room when you had the key in your hand - and he was away?  I mean, she didn't suspect anything really horrid.  Yes, I would have taken a peek - a quick peek!

[JoanP]

gosh Ella, you're memory is as bad as mine!  You don't remember the castle, but you remember that fish after all these years.  I'll bet you remember the fish eyes too!

Here's the think about the fairy tales we have read so far - There was a Scot back in the mid 1800's - Andrew Lang - who collected and published all of these color fairy books full of just about all of the known fairy tales of the time.

Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books

Some of us have collected one or two of these colour fairy books - they must be worth something, don't you think? I think it was Goldenson who found the Blue Fairy Book years ago.  What makes the blue fairy book so special is that it includes the oldest and the most beloved tales - the ones we all know - such as Cinderella, Red Riding Hood, Sleeping Beauty...  And look they are all digitalized - you can read them all online!
Blue Fairy Book...

An interesting point about these old, old tales is that they were NOT written by men.  They were tales told by women to one another and then to children over the centuries until men collected them and wrote them down.  Men like Perrault and the Brothers Grimm.  IN MY OPINION - the women were telling the tales to console one another about their treatment from men, their position in society.  Because of their position we find them behaving cruelly to one another in many of the  stories - and the men seemed to delight in this situation as they wrote down the stories.  AS Jude said, sex and violence sells - now and back then too.  

As we read earlier and earlier versions of the stories, they seemed to become more and more raw - Finally we reached "Sleeping Beauty."

Steph, you have to know this, because you don't plan to read the back stuff - that hearing the original versions of Sleeping Beauty turned off some of our participants.  I don't blame them - I don't think Sleeping Beauty will ever be the same again.  We could have avoided all that angst had we just read the Brothers Grimms' version.  Here they decided to end the story with the prince waking Beauty from her 100 year nap with a chaste kiss...compared to the early versions in which she was raped in her sleep, impregnated and gave birth to twins - all while asleep.
I think I know you - you would have been one of those who wanted to go back and see how the stories had developed over time.  Still, it leaves the Brothers Grimm story ...lacking  once you know the real story.

JoanR, I still haven't read Donkeykins - but do intend to read it in the coming week...

Speaking of the coming week...well wait, I'll go get the heading - it's almost Sunday morning!
Will be right back!

[JoanP]

We have delved into Lang's Blue Fairy Book just about as deep as we can go - how low can you go!  Shall we leave Perrault and Grimm - and Basile for a while?  (Of course if you have found more information about any of the stories, please feel free to bring them here.)  But Ella's comment about the authorship leads to an obvious question - what of Hans Christian Andersen?
When examining Perrault and Brothers Grimm, we learned that these men collected the tales told to them by women.  Surely these two men were not the only ones who collected fairy tales?  And do we have the social commentary, the meta messages running beneath the plot of ALL fairy tales?

 So, here we are again, back to that nagging question - what is a fairy tale anyway? JoanR asks - "Can we call Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?" (Joan says she would.)

Ivmfox - does the "The Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales contain Andersen's Little Mermaid?

Jude searched the Colour Fairy books and did not find Andersen's  Little Mermaid.

But look, here are  other Mermaid tales by HC Anderson in the fairy books:
"Hans the Mermaid's Son" - Pink Fairy Book  - http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm
"Mermaid and the Boy" - Brown Fairy Book -  http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm
And finally, not in Lang's books, but in the Brothers Grimm - their telling of ~

The Little Mermaid

Have you ever read it?  Let's do, let's discuss it and see if we can discern the underlying message - one that sheds light on the times in which it was written.  Perhaps the Mermaid tales in Lang's Colour Fairy Books listend above will help.

Then let's spend the rest of our time together examining your favorites - if you want to submit a title for this, we'll spend one day on each of them - first come, first discussed - which would YOU like to talk about here?

[Steph]

Whew, I am glad that I was not here earlier. I liked the Sleeping Beauty, but would definitely not have liked that type of story. I am way behind all of you because I believe that most fairy tales were told and retold as oral tradition. Think of Indian tribes. They keep their history that way.. So do Eskimo tribes. Has to be with no written tradition. I love Myths and stories of the various gods and goddesses and I would guess always consider Fairy Tales in that sort of genre.

[ursamajor]

I would like to discuss "The Twelve Months". An abbreviated version of this appears in the Lang books, but the version I read as a child had been considerably elaborated.  I think the told tales mostly had much more detail and embroidery than Lang's succinct report of the plots.  This is a variant of the cruel stepmother story except the step-relatives were even more malicious.  The heroine of my story was named Dobrunka, and the setting was Russia or a similar place in midwinter.

The stepsister takes a notion for violets , and pushes Dobrunka out into the snowstorm to look for them.  Dobrunka encounters a circle of robed men around a great fire, and asks for permission to join them to warm herself.  She charms then with her good manners and sweet disposition until Brother April gives her permission to gather violets, and behold!  for a little while it is spring.  She then takes the violets home to her evil sister.  The story progresses from there, and ends with "And the snow fell and the wind blew......"

This one is certainly a cautionary tale.

http://www.rickwalton.com/folktale/holid003.htm

[Ella Gibbons]

What is a fairy tale?  I don't know - who determines questions like that?  And do they need to be determined.

To tell a story that begins with - ONCE UPON A TIME.......    is magical.  Someone on BookTV said that yesterday and also said that every child understands this.  Are fairy tales for children?

The Little Mermaid or The Twelve Months are both unfamiliar to me.  We all had our favorites didn't we?

[JudeS]

Looking for answers to some of my questions which have arisen because of this discussion I came acros an author who seems to be in great favor on this subject.  Her name is Ruth B. Bottigheimer.  The two books I read about have the titles:

Grimm's Bad Girls and Bold Boys
Fairy Tales: A New History

The New History is subtitled :"Rise Fairy Tales".. in her first chapter she explains that there are two basic plots to fairy Tales:
A)Those that restore position and patrimony
B)Those that record a rise from poverty to wealth.

She explains that the basic plot is based on Equilibrium- Disequilibrium-Equilibrium.

Much of the second book is devoted to the Italian Zoan Straparola (1490-1555) who she believes created the modern fairy tale.  Because of political, economic and cultural events during his life  it was  the perfect time to give hope to the rising middle class.She calls him the Fairy Godfather.(Not many of those in our discussion)

I know this is a different perspective on what we are discussing at this time but I hope others may find it interesting as well.

[straudetwo]

The question of bad girls versus bad boys is that has arisen is well worth considering.

Yes, bad boys were addressed, though not necessarily by Grimm, for example in Struwwelpeter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/struwwelpeter

[straudetwo]

I paused here for a minute or two to check whether the link work. It does, apparently.

Struwwelpeter is a funny little book, with examples of how NOT to behave in a sequence of pictures and of what happens if one DOES,  narrated in rhyme.  It was designed to be read aloud to even the youngest boys  and, generations later,  it is still available.

Other tales of possible woe are inside  : Mother, Father, son around a festively laden dining room table, the son moving back and forth on his chair until it topples; he grabs the table cloth, pulling down everyhing on it. The last picture is of the mother who, her lorgnette in hand, looks at the now empty table.

Another tsequence pictured is  a group of boys walking behind each other, one of them black. The others make fun of him  (I cannot now remember how) when a huge man appears in a  long belted coat and cap appears with a giant ink pot.  He proceeds to dip all of the other boys is dinto it, and the last picture shows them marching off in line, now all of them black.

All in all remarkable lessons, I believe - considering the  time. I grew up with it but never really associated with it  for  I didn' DO those things! I really was a goody two-shoes, hahahaha

[marcie]

JoanP, I don't know how much the "original" hardback colored fairy tale books would cost but I see that the kindle version of ALL twelve books in one file is 99 cents! http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Childrens-Books-contents-ebook/dp/B001EHF2C4/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1282535844&sr=1-7

[marcie]

Whew, I am glad that I was not here earlier. I liked the Sleeping Beauty, but would definitely not have liked that type of story. I am way behind all of you because I believe that most fairy tales were told and retold as oral tradition. Think of Indian tribes. They keep their history that way.. So do Eskimo tribes. Has to be with no written tradition. I love Myths and stories of the various gods and goddesses and I would guess always consider Fairy Tales in that sort of genre.

Steph, I'm thinking along the same lines as you... that fairy tales, for me, are based on an oral tradition and are "cousins" to myths.

[Steph]

My granddaughter loved Once Upon A Time and princesses.. I read her all sorts, told her even more and made up some as we went along.. But her all time favorite which was not an old fairy tale was Horton heard the Who.. I read that hundreds of times since she loved the idea of being kind to all and small.. Is that a fairy tale?? It is of course a new story, not an old one.

[JoanP]

Good morning, Steph!  Your granddaughter and mine both enjoy those old tales.  That's reassuring.  I love the idea of your making up a few as you go along.  
Tomorrow Lindsay will be nine years old - she is deep into fairies right now.  Yesterday she told me that she thinks she saw one slipping into a flower but she didn't get there in time.  Her fairies, the stories she makes up about them are all good fairies.  There are no bad boys, though there are some bad girls - who are changed by the good ones. Interesting that she leaves out "bad" boys - she has three little brothers, who are often monsters.  

I believe that most fairy tales were told and retold as oral tradition.

 I think we're all going to agree with you.  Maybe it's semantics - Warner spent some time explaining the difference between folklore and fairy tales.  It seems that once the oral tales were written down and recorded, they became fairy tales.  We've been focusing on the earliest known written  tales, which were based on a long history of oral storytelling, going way back to myths...
 
Jude, I thought that was fascinating information from Ruth B. Bottigheimer on the Italian Zoan Straparola  giving hope to the   rising middle class in the 16th century with fairy tales.  I can sense that idea lurking behind every fairy tale, I think.

And those   two basic plots to fairy Tales:
Those that restore position and patrimony
Those that record a rise from poverty to wealth.

She explains that the basic plot is based on Equilibrium- Disequilibrium-Equilibrium.

hmmm..Steph asked whether we thought that Horton/Who would be classed as a fairy tale.  Wouldn't you say that it is based on  Equilibrium- Disequilibrium-Equilibrium?

To tell a story that begins with - ONCE UPON A TIME.......    is magical

 Ella
I agree, Ella.  Are all imaginary stories beginning with Once Upon a Time fairy tales? Or do they have to be based on a history of oral tradition?  That is a question that has arisen during our conversation here...

Struwwelpeter is a funny little book, with examples of how NOT to behave in a sequence of pictures and of what happens if one

Traudee  I can just imagine you as that  good little girl, delighting in this book on training those little bad boys who were making your life miserable, Traudee.  I hope to look at it more closely tonight- when these little ones get to sleep.

I've never read The Twelve Months either, Ella.  You can read Little Mermaid - that's a link in the heading. You really should! Ursa, can you try to find a longer version of Twelve Months than Lang's abbreviated version on the web and bring a link here?  I'd do it, but can't get to it today.  

Really looking  forward to reading your posts and spending some time with you on this fascinating, ever-expanding subject when the kiddies get to bed tonight.

[marcie]

There is a version of "The Twelve Months" at http://russian-crafts.com/tales/12months.html

I don't recall the story very well but I remember that I was enchanted by the title of "Snow White and Rose Red." I loved the idea of two sisters very different from one another with such exotic, visual names. There is a version here: http://www.authorama.com/grimms-fairy-tales-63.html

[JudeS]

I read the "Little Mermaid " stories and realized I had never read them before.
First I thought of the Sirens in Odysseus, but as I read more of the Mermaids detailed life and existence I could only think of one thing.  It is the ending of T.S.Eliot's poem "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock"-which I will enter here:

Shall I part my hair behind?  Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think they will sing to me.

I have seen them riding seaward on the waves
Combing the white hair of the waves blown back
When the wind blows the water white and black.

We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

[straudetwo]

The story of The Twelve Months was not known to me either, and I'm glad I had the chance to read it now.  It is perfect, I believe, in the context of this book. . Thank you for the link.

In this story we have the (historically justly maligned)widowed, angry stepmother and her spoiled, selfish daughter (only one daughter here), who's getting uglier by the day,  sharing their abode with the older stepdaughter from the husband's first marriage, who's much prettier.  She is made the Cinderella-like,  abused servant but gifted with infinite patience.  She handled the impossible tasks asked of her to perfection. The outcome of the story is bound to satisfy listeners and readers alike.

This is proof, if any were needed,  of the universality of human traits and interactions.  
In the stories, circumstances may vary, but the message is the same, and the moral  is universally understanble.  
Lastly, the rescuer must not necessarily be a prince, and that is why I found the ending of The Twelve Months so pleasurable. Thank you
 

[JudeS]

I will be leaving for a family wedding in Vermont and won't be here for the rest of the discussion.
I would like to leave on a fun and upbeat note. So, for those of you who want a giggle and like the Fairytale "The Musicians of Bremen" ,Jim Henson and the Muppets have transferred the whole tale to rural Louisiana and made a movie (one hour) or a Youtube (nine minutes) presentation of this charming and intriguing tale. No Prince or Princess or Wicked Stepmothers.  Simply a good story.
Enjoy !
Write into Google"The Muppet Musicians of Bremen"

[JoanP]

Hey Jude, we're going to miss you big time!  You've been a bright light in this discussion from start to finish - from the defrocking of Bruno B. to the l Muppet Musicians of Bremen - (this is a link.)

Enjoy your trip to Vermont - we're all going to miss you!

[JoanP]

I have always loved "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock" - and it means so much more now that I am "aging" - as Prufrock does in this poem.  I think we could do a whole discussion analyzing that one poem, don't you ?  But I hadn't connected it in my mind to HC Andersen's Little Mermaid.  Of course now that Jude brings those lines to us, I begin to understand the meaning of the closing lines...

"We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown." 

Did you notice that he changed from referring to mermaids to calling them "sea girls"?

For a brief time, the Little Mermaid seems to have her dreams come true...a chance to gain the love of the handsome prince - not to mention an immortal soul.  She has changed from a mermaid - to a girl, a sea-girl. Her tail has been slit as if by a knife.  The old lady who performed this miracle was her own grandmother in the version that I read.  She willingly traded her beautiful voice for human legs. Where her tail had once been, she now has two of the prettiest legs, and smallest feet of any maiden in the country. .

What stays in my mind is the image of the maiden experiencing sharp pain with every step.

Feminists must have been all over this tale...What do you think the moral of this story was?  Surely this is a cautionary tale - but what is the warning?

[JoanP]

Marcie, thank you for the link to "The Twelve Months" - I'm going to read it tonight.  Traudee, I can't wait to find out who the rescuer turns out to be - otherwise the story sounds much like Cinderella's!

[straudetwo]

What a coincidence, Jude, or was it telepathy?

The fairy tale of the Musicians of Bremen is one of my favorites and never failed to delight my son. It lends itself so well to being retold with more imagined details of the lives the four dissimilar animals had in the robbers' deserted house. I thought of it all afternoon and smiled.

Because, looking again for the still missing Grimms Fairy Tales I found a different book, a   treasure:  It contains one year's worth of a monthly children's magazine. Seeing how much I looked forward and enjoyed these issues,  my father took them to a bookbinder, who fashioned a handsome, durable volume.

I leafed through it and THERE was the story of the would-be musicians with a drawing of the donkey, the hunting dog, the cat and the rooster bursting through the window giving their respective clamoing voices,  chasing the robbers away.  A tour de force, marvelous to behold.

The "wuartet"  lived together for ever after in the robbers' house, never giving Bremen another thought.
I think right there may be another lesson in this happy ending.

Here's wishing you a safe trip and lots of fun with the family at the wedding. We'll miss you.

[marcie]

I hope you have a good trip, Jude. I too appreciate all of the wonderful information and insights  you've shared. I'll check out the Muppets video.

"The Little Mermaid" brings to my mind a Carol Goodman novel, I've read: "The Seduction of Water." Goodman weaves a present day story against the background of a fairy tale based on an Irish legend about the Selkie Girl: a half seal-half woman who pays a dear price when she morphs from one "skin" to the other.

[Steph]

I loved Snow
White and Rose Red.. There is even a two book series on the names in the science fiction line.. Forgot the author though.

[JoanP]

Good morning, Steph...isn't it funny, how these tales continues to be told - and updated?  Does this look familiar?  Patricia Wrede, 1989 ~

And Marcie, while I'm not familiar with Carol Goodman's modern telling of the Selkie Girl "who pays a dear price when she morphs from one "skin" to the other," you just reminded me of the ancient tale of the Melusine, (the sea enchantress, half seal, or maybe she was a mermaid) we just read about in AS Byatt's "Possession."

Hans' Christian Andersen's tale of the Little Mermaid is supposed to have been a retelling of these ancient tales for children - really???  So morbid.  That was a nice bit of cooperation when her sisters from the sea cut their hair to make a deal with the sea witch to get the mermaid's voice back, I suppose.  But the poor little thing was unable to kill the prince as the witch demanded - and so she killed herself by tossing herself into the sea foam.  What message would a child take from such a tale?  
It took Disney to take the bite out of that story - I've forgotten how that ended...

Off now to look at The Twelve  Months - fell asleep last night - three grandsons really know how to exhaust Meanma!

[JoanP]

Marcie, I just read The Twelve Months - and since you had provided the link to Snow White and Rose Red , I read that one too. I had forgotten the tale too.  Both of these stories are suitable for children to read - both about sisters too - but what a difference!  If you get a chance to read these two, back to back, I recommend you do.  You can't help but compare them family circumstances.  Does environment determine character?  As Traudee pointed out yesterday, the moral is perfectly clear in each, easily understandable for a child, but the family circumstances were different.  I agree with you, Traudee, the stories are perfect for this discussion as we understand the hardships and difficult times of the medieval period.

I'll put the links to both stories in the header...Today is Lindsay's b'day - will be back much later  and look forward to  your comments.

[ursamajor]

That is a nice rendition of the Twelve Months story, but it does not contain the phrase "And the snow fell and the wind blew....." that ended the version I read in the Book House Books series.  That phrase, repeated several times and at the very end of the story truly remains in my memory as a suitable end for the evil step-mother and her daughter lost in the snow.

I read Musicians of Bremen and Snow White and Rose Red in the same volume of the set. The cover illustration, now almost worn away, was fron Snow White and Rose Red.  I like it very much also.

I personally don't think the Andersen Stories are suitable for young children.  The Little Mermaid transmits a negative lesson, and The Little Match Girl is the stuff of Nightmares.

[JoanP]

Ursa, I've just a minute - but want to ask you if this is the one you remember?

The Twelve Months

[JoanR]

I just finished reading the "Twelve Months Story" and I do think that the phrase " and the snow fell and the wind blew" should end the story - it's like a refrain in poetry.  Great tale!
I followed the link to the Baldwin Project and read a number of the tales that were unfamiliar to me.
What a gift!!  Thanks so much, JoanP for making it available.

I agree that many of Andersen's tales may not be suitable for young children unless you consider that those stories may help develop empathy or sympathy for the fate of others.  There are too many young folks out there who don't seem to care enough about their fellow human beings.
No one read to me as a child - I found all my own reading and had my heart broken over some of Andersen  and then later by "Black Beauty" - but that's another genre!
There are lessons to be learned from most of the tales - virtue being always rewarded, for instance.  Not always true in the material sense but certainly in the spiritual sense.  Villains always coming to a bad end - well, maybe!!!

[JoanR]

JoanP - you might tell your granddaughter that, as a child, I used to find milkweed pods, split them open until the silky interior showed and hang them in the willow tree as beds for the fairies.  Do you have milkweed in Arlington?  This is a good time of year to make fairy beds!

[Steph]

Ah, that is the exact same book by Patricia Wrede that I read and looked for her in all sorts of places to see what else she had done.

[ursamajor]

The version of The Twelve Months above is almost identical with the story I have.  The wording is just a little different; perhaps they were translated from the same source.  In my book Dobrunka's "prince" comes after the mother and sister disappear, but the couple and their children seem to continue to live on her farm.  My book has an illustration of the sister in a howling snowstorm with her cloak and long braids blowing in front of her.  And of course the reiteration of "and the snow fell and the wind blew".  The repeated phrase and the drawing tend to stick in the mind even after many many years.

[JoanP]

Just back from granddaughter Lindsay's 9th birthday celebration - three days of conversations about fairies and fairy tales.  Yesterday morning we made fairy cookies -  on the plates you may be able to see both tulips AND fairies - http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo55/jonkie2/DSC02035.jpg

After the cookies, she read "The Twelve Months" online when I was looking for the version Ursa remembered.   She was unfazed by the deaths of the mother and daughter -   Did notice that the girl prayed  as she was freezing to death, but decided  she got what she deserved.  I hadn't noticed the praying part, and admit that the unanswered prayer disturbed me some.  

JoanR - I wish we had milkweeds...not sure what they look like - or if we have them in Arlington.  What kind of trees do they grow on?  Lindsay would love to make little milkweed hammocks from them, I'm sure.  By the way, she was really pressing me for the reason there are so few fairies in fairy tales. She thinks those without fairies should be called something else.   Not sure what to tell her -

By the way - take a look here - the cover is a link, I hope... ...I think I need to get one for Lindsay, a belated birthday present...

I'm going to go see what Marina Warner has to say about the "blondes"  in these fairy tales.  It must have been important enough to her to include blondness in the title...