Author Topic: Fairy Tales & Their Tellers~From the Beast to the Blonde~August Book Club Online  (Read 88390 times)

JoanP

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The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

 
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~  August  Book Club Online
 
 Source Book:
* From the Beast to the Blonde by Marina Warner  


        Marina Warner's  From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and  comprehensive study of the changing  cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them.  The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories.  Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")

Warner's book is huge.  We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories  and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness.

If you are unable to get your hands on this book, not to worry.   The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those fortunate enough to locate   Warner's book can share the commentary with the rest of us.

For Your Consideration - Week 4  ~ August 23-31



1. What do you think? Can we call Hans Christian Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?"

2. Have you ever read The Little Mermaid?
Why do you think Andrew Lang included previous tales Andersen wrote about mermaids in his colour books, but not this one?
 
3. What did you think of the Grimms' treatment of The Little Mermaid - after reading Andersen's stories Lang included in his pink and brown Colour Fairy Books? - Hans the Mermaid's Son   AND
TheMermaid and the Boy  

4. What do you think was the message behind the story?  The moral? Was this a fairy tale?  Did it have a happy ending?

5. Do you want to nominate a favorite fairy tale or one that you haven't read yet for discussion here in the coming days while we are still together?

6. Have you read The Twelve Months or do you remember   Snow White and Rose Red ?  What determines the difference between these two sets of sisters?

7. Can you think of any fairy tale heroines who were NOT blonde?  Why do you think the old story of Silverhair was turned into "The Story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears?"  Do you see blondeness as a symbol of innocence in this tale?

8. Were all  the blondes of fairy tales innocent and virtuous?

9. Do the beloved old fairy tales of Perrault and Grimm  still have significance for today's children? 

10.  What effect did the feminist movement have on children's books and fairy tales?

Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books; Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales ; A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell"   ; Little Red Riding Hood   (Charles Perrault - 1697); Little Red Riding Hood   (Brothers Grimm - 1812); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ); Charles Perrault's Cinderella;the Brothers Grimm ~ Cinderella, 1812; the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella;   earlier  version- Cinder Maid ;   the 9th century Chinese Cinderella ; Giambatista  Basile's Sleeping Beauty - (The Sun, the Moon and Talia)1657;
History of Sleeping Beauty - from Arthurian legend Perceforest 1567; Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood  1697 ;
Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty;   The Little Mermaid, Grimm, Andersen;Hans the Mermaid's Son (Lang's Pink Fairy book - Andersen   -
TheMermaid and the Boy  (Lang's Brown Fairy book- Andersen;   The Twelve Months ; Snow White and Rose Red


 
Discussion Leader:  JoanP with JoanR, Guest DL



JoanR

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JoanP - Here's a link with some information on milkweed pods and their silk:

http://handbookofnaturestudy.blogspot.com/2008/09/milkweed-pods-and-seeds-outdoor-hour.html

They don't grow on trees -milkweed is a common plant in upstate NY - has some poisonous aspects, I see!  You have to detach the ripe pod from the plant, slit it open to make a little bed - the silk makes a downy mattress and the pod itself is just big enough for a tiny bed or hammock.  Some fairies are quite domesticated and appreciate living in a dollhouse - since your granddaughter lives in town, she might be happy with that!

JoanP

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Granddaughter now lives in NC, JoanR, but will appreciate the information about fairies and dollhouses.  Can you tell me what to tell her about the term, fairy tales, and how they came to be named that way - when there are no fairies in most of them?  I'm suspecting Perrault and his Contes des Fees - but not sure...

I hope some of you with the Warner book will look at the final chapters on Blondness - so much interesting information there.  If you don't have Warner, will you try to name some of the fairy tales with blond heroines?  Maybe it would be easier to name the dark haired ones? :D

Among other symbolism for blondness,  Warner mentions  "fair," rather than "yellow."  She also says blondness is an indication of a virgin's youth as well as innocence.  She says that many children are fair in infancy and grow darker with age.  Why do you think that is?  My boys were newborns with dark hair, which fell out and turned blonder and blonder as they grew - towheads.  But today, they all have dark hair! I remember it happening when they went to the barber for their first hair cuts...which happened when they got tired of mama's " bowl" cuts.  I never used a bowl, I swear - but will admit they looked as if I had.

the first blond fairy tale I thought of was Goldilocks.  An obvious choice, you say.  But isn't this curious? - Goldilocks started out as a silverhaired old woman (even before that version, the intruder was a fox.)  In Robert Southey's version, the intruder was an old woman named Silverhair.  What an interesting story, so much behind it.

Let's look for more blonde heroines in fairy tales...


ursamajor

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The association between fairies and fair hair is interesting.  In some of the explanations I have read about the Irish and British fairies it is thought that the stories originated with the"little people" who were believed to have retreated partially underground in response to threats from immigrants who were larger in body size.  These Pictish people would have almost certainly been dark of skin and hair.  In Ireland you can still visit what are called "fairy forts" which are most interesting - much of them underground.  These were the fairies that reportedly stole or exchanged children and created much of the mischief that you find in the fairy stories.  These fairies are still a presense in Ireland - one of the runways at the Shannon airport was relocated because the original site would have destroyed a "fairy tree" - an enormous hawthorne.  The workers walked right off the job.


Steph

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Y es, I do wonder about the Blondes as well. I dont remember being blonde as being something the heroine had to be.. But in Snow White, Rose Red, Snow White was blonde and fair.. There was a fantasy book that Winter who was the villain was blonde and pale..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

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Good heavens, Ursa - Have you  stumbled right into the connection between the term "fairy tales"  and fairies?  After reading your post of the fairy forts in Ireland, I'm reading all sorts of sources on the fairy tales-  Druids' magic and believers in the fairies.  I see from your post that the power of their presence is still alive in Ireland today - in Shannon and wherever else those fairy forts still exist...

Here's  a first person account by someone who grew up in Ireland -

Evil Fairies
Evil fairies in Irish folklore steal people’s souls and leave changelings behind in their place. They curse those who interfere with their precious fairy forts. They wail at your window when one of your family members is about to die.
I grew up in Ireland and Irish folklore is full of tales of fairies up to no good....

Many Irish families claim to be haunted by evil fairies called Banshees. The Banshee is an Irish fairy that emerges at night drawing a comb through her long silvery hair. (NOTICE HER SILVERY HAIR!) She is said to be drawn to certain families (mostly those whose surname is preceded by an O', ie. O' Grady, O'Brien and O'Connor) and to appear at their home wailing before or shortly after one of their family member dies.

‘Away with the fairies’ is a popular expression in Ireland used to describe someone whose mind is elsewhere. Its origins lie in the belief that mischevious or evil fairies steal people’s souls and carry them off to the underworld, leaving changelings behind in their place. There’s even a recorded case of an Irish man who tried to murder his wife, claiming her soul had been kidnapped by fairies and that her body was inhabited by a fairy spirit.

As a child I was told never to play inside a fairy fort because the fairies don't like it and might curse you as a result. Fairy forts are the remains of circular houses in which Irish people lived from the Iron Age up until early Christian times. You can see them dotted all over Ireland, circles of standing stones, usually with long grass growing in between them where modern man fears to tread.

We don’t really call our Irish fairies evil fairies. In fact we often refer to fairies as the ‘good people’ but they’re certainly capable of doing evil to those who interfere with their ways. Whether our mythology is the result of an active imagination, a drop too much of the Irish ale Puteen or a special Irish sensitivity to the supernatural, well, that's for you to decide!
http://www.fantasybooksandmovies.com/evil-fairies.html

Did you notice the Banshee queen with the silvery hair?  Much like the old woman in an earlier version of Goldilocks, before she was rewritten as a young girl with golden curls... -

Stephanie - notes a another connection in The Twelve Months - the same thing as we see in Goldilocks - from the old to the young  and the hair color -

"Upon the highest peak burned a large fire, surrounded by twelve blocks of stone on which sat twelve strange beings. Of these the first three had white hair, three were not quite so old, three were young and handsome, and the rest still younger..."

More on Blondness - Warner had an interesting note on the reason for Snow White's dark hair color - need to get dinner - will be back later...

marcie

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There are some interesting tidbits about the blonde heroines in fairy tales and elsewhere at http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HairOfGold

There is an overview of feminist involvement with fairy tales(in primary texts and through feminist theory as a critique of the genre and its production) at http://www.answers.com/topic/feminism-and-fairy-tales

I've not heard of the author, Tala Bar, of the following article about the desirability of blond hair and I can't judge the value of the article: http://www.tstsy.com/2010/04/09/what-is-the-meaning-of-blonde-hair-and-why-it-is-so-desirable-all-over-the-world/

There is a little info about Tala Bar at http://www.bewilderingstories.com/bios/talabar_bio.html

JoanP

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Steph, I just reread Snow White-Rose Red.  There's a link up in the heading.  I can't find a description of Snow White at all, don't see her  described  in this story as blond and fair.  Did I read it too fast?

Marina Warner writes of "a teeming population of blond fairy tale heroines." 
There are references to blondness all the way back to Homer's Helen's golden hair... She says "only  Snow White is dark because her story opens with her mother's wish for her babie's hair the color of a raven's wing..."

Remember Madame D'Aulnoy - she is the one who wrote fairy tales in the 16th century at the same time Perrault was collecting and writing down tales for the salons and court.  Madame D'Aulnoy first  termed her works "contes de fées" (fairy tales)

One of her early works was
Fair Goldilocks , (not to be confused with Goldilocks and the Three Bears.)
Listen to her description of the power of golden hair -
Quote
"THERE was once a king's (laughter who was so beautiful that nothing in the whole world could be compared with her. And because she was so beautiful they called her Princess Goldilocks; for her hair was finer than gold, wonderfully fair, and it fell in ringlets to her feet. Her only covering for her head was her curly hair and a garland of flowers; her dresses were embroidered with diamonds and pearls; and no one could look on her without loving her."

Have things changed?  Do blondes still hold the power over men?  Do they "have more fun?" Have you ever wished you were blonde?   Are you, were you blonde?  We'd really like to hear from you what it's like.





JoanP

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Marcie, we were posting at the same time - I just now see those fascinating links you found for us.  Will save them for the morning - we're on East Coast time ;D - off to bed!  Thanks!

Steph

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N o, but the cover of Snow White Rose Red shows her as a blonde. I dont remember reading what color her hair was in the book.. Interestingly enough.. Current fiction tends to consider the Fey ( fairy) as the most dangerous other..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ursamajor

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My Book House version of Snow White and Rose Red describes Snow White as blonde.  In that story I think the purpose is contrast rather than that one was more beautiful or good than the other; they are both described as beautiful and good.  It is Snow White who marries the transformed bear while Rose Red marries his brother, so perhaps blondes are preferred!

JoanP

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I just read this - Snow White of the Rose Red story is not to be confused with the Grimm fairy tale Snow White (which is written Schneewittchen in German, rather than Schneeweißchen) that provided the basis for the Walt Disney film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs; this is a completely different character, and she has nothing in common with the other one, other than sharing her name in English, and having an encounter with a dwarf.

But Ursa, you and Marcie are on to something when you noted that Snow White - Rose Red is probably portrayed as fair on the cover and in the text because she was more beautiful and virtuous than Rose Red.  From the text -
Quote
"Snow White was quieter and more gentle than Rose-red. Rose-red loved to run about the fields and meadows, and to pick flowers and catch butterflies; but Snow-white sat at home with her mother and helped her in the household, or read aloud to her when there was no work to do."

Warner describes at length the heroines who were blond - young, innocent, virtuous, fair, good and beautiful.  (I would add "naive" to the description..)  Marcie, that was quite an article you posted last evening on "blondness." 

Quote
•The Fair Folk found blond hair so attractive that both babies and women with this color of hair were much more likely to be taken.
•Occasional fairy tales explicitly describe the heroines as blond in the text, such as The Myrtle, The Goose Girl and Fair Goldilocks. But Victorian illustrators would depict them as blond except when they were explicitly described as not blond in the text. Which is to say, Snow White didn't get drawn as blond (and sometimes even she does).
•Goldilocks combines both the innocence and the folly associated with blond hair.

 

I was also interested in Tala Bar's article explaining the desirability of blond hair...fascinating.  It explains the love of gold and also sun worship.  A girl's hair that resembled gold or the sun was considered an indication of her worth. I can't help but think of the desirability of fair hair today.  The article speaks of bleached blonds - Warner had mentioned that when Hollywood introduced bleached blonds such as Marilyn Monroe in the 50's and 60's, the connotation of "innocence" was lost.
Is a bleached blond still more attractive to princes - to men, today?  Or is the allure gone?  For a while redheads were the rage, but now there are so many young women who dye their hair red...and maroon and pink even, I'm not sure if hair color has the same meaning it had in the fairy tales.
What do you think?

Another issue we have yet to consider is the Feminist view of Fairy Tales.   Can you guess what their reaction was back in the 70's?  Was there a change since then?  Marcie brought a good article to our attention...let's consider that next as we consider women's hair color.
From Marcie - There is an overview of feminist involvement with fairy tales(in primary texts and through feminist theory as a critique of the genre and its production) at http://www.answers.com/topic/feminism-and-fairy-tales

Here's something I was thinking about as I ran through my Friday errands - were all the blondes of fairy tales innocent and virtuous?  How about Goldilocks?  How would you characterize that little rascal?


marcie

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Hmmm, since "Goldilocks" with the golden hair wasn't a character in the original story, (Joan, as you pointed out earlier I think), we probably can't read too much into her hair color and the description of her character and what happens to her. The story didn't start out with a blonde.

I found this background info on the Goldilocks name in the annotated Surlalune fairy tales at http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/goldilocks/notes.html#EIGHT
 A little Girl named Goldilocks:  Goldilocks is not present in Southey's original version. The trespasser is a little old Woman instead. Goldilocks has actually enjoyed many incarnations and names.

Twelve years after Southey's story was first published in 1837, Joseph Cundall changed the old woman into a young girl named 'Silver Hair' in the version he published in his Treasury of Pleasure Books for Young Children (1849). He apparently felt there were too many stories with old women, and wanted to present a young girl in the story instead, perhaps for didactic reasons. Then in 1858 the character was dubbed 'Silver-Locks' in Aunt Mavor's Nursery Tales. Next she became 'Golden Hair' around 1868 in Aunt Friendly's Nursery Book. Finally, in Old Nursery Stories and Rhymes, illustrated by John Hassall (circa 1904), she became Goldilocks. The name has stuck and been used the most often ever since (Opie 1974, 199-200).

Maybe something was going on around 1868 where golden hair was valued (or maybe it was just more realistic for a girl to have golden hair rather than silver).

Since many people in northern European countries have blonde hair, it might be that stories originating or retold in those countries would feature heroines with blonde hair?

Steph

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I agree that people with fair hair are so much more common in the northern parts of Europe. Like red heads in Scotland actually.. So the fairy tales would probably reflect this.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

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Marina Warner devotes two chapters to hair, golden hair - citing examples of fair blond hair going way back - to Homer's fair haired Aphrodite, to Venus;  Virgil describes Dido's hair as "golden."The astrological sign Virgo  appears as blonde in Les Tres Richers Heures du Duc de Berry, the illuminated manuscript painted in the 15th century.
She gives so many examples - here's Botticeli's 15th century Aphrodite rising from the sea wearing nothing but her long blond hair...


It seems from reading all this -  that fair hair, blond hair has been viewed throughout history as the ideal of beauty, doesn't it? Even before Fairy Tales were written down.  I'm going to quote Warner on the topic of hair - and then I have a question for you...

Quote
"Blond hair shares with gold certain mythopoeic properties: gold does not tarnish, it can be beaten and hammered. annealed and spun and still will not diminish or fade, its brightness survives time, burial, and the forces of decay, as does hair, more than any other part or residue of the flesh.  

It is hair's imperviousness as a natural substance that yields the deeper symbolic meanings  and warrants the high place hair plays in the motif repertory of fairy tales and other legends.  
Such quasi-magical properties make it a symbol of invulnerability..."

Does it strike you as it did me as I read this, that the maidens of the fairy tales...before Grimm...evidenced this same ability to withstand the cruelty of their times...like gold, they survived.

Before we come to the end of our time together on this subject, I'd like to talk with you on the effects that feminists had on the traditional fairy tales you, we grew up with.  You did not like the raw reality expressed in the early tales before Perrault and Grimm abbreviated them and yet these are the ones the Fems objected to.  I would like to talk about their stance on fairy tales today. Maybe we're getting close to the reason girls are not encouraged to read fairy tales today.  Maybe not.

JoanR

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I didn't know that girls today are discouraged from reading fairy tales.  Don't mothers who read to their children ever read fairy tales?  I'm sure that they must.  At least if they start with The Little Mermaid from Disney, they would branch out to more tales.  It would be a sad state of affairs if people were discouraged from finding out about the roots of our culture!  Say not so!!

straudetwo

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In Chapters 21 and 22 of this book, Marina Warner elaborates  in detail on The Language of Hair and on Blondes;  the information is fascinating.  These chapters also contain myriad facts hat are not widely known -- one more reason why this book is so valuable IMHO and a pleasure to savor, slowly, at one's leisure, according to one's interest.  

The author does not refer only to human hair but also to animals' coats, skin, pelt, fur. She relates the incidental fact that, in Perrault's original version, Cinderella's slippers were not of glass but of vair(=fleece).

According to WArner, hair constitutes one's identity.  The language of the self  would be stripped of one of its richest resouces, without hair. Through hair the body reveals the passage of time and the fluctuating claims of gender; strangers offer a glossary of clues in the way they do the hair on their heads.

Hair, Warner says, is central to magic; snippets of hair have been used in love charms and fertility rites and, to the Greeks, were symbols, akin to fetishes, of loss and mourning, and thrown into the funeral pyre.  Victorians put the locks of a dear one in to lockets.

Long hair was especially prized - and often the solution to a calamity.  Grimm's Rapunzel imprisoned in an inaccessible tower, pulled up her lover by her hair and gained her freedom by descending (with him, one presumes) in the same manner.

Blond hair, Warner says,  shares certain prperties with gold.  
Gold does not tarnish;  it can be hammered,  annealed or spun, will not diminish or fade, its brightness survives time, burial and the forces of decay ----
 
and so does hair, more than any other part of the body.

The imperviousness of hair as a natural substance led to its deeper symbolic meaning and warrants the high place hair plays in the fairy tales.  Hair can be cut, sizzled with hot tongs, steeped in chemicals and dyes without apparent suffering, and will go on growing, sometimes in abundance, and is not stopped by death.  This phenomenon was noted in the case of great heroes, like Charlemagne (+814) and Saint Olav, King of Norway (+1030), and stimulated the cult that developed round their tombs.  (pg. 372)

On the same page, Warner writes
"Our capillary arts borrow and build on the physiology of hair, which we humans share with other creatures of fur and fleece.  The affective behaviour of our pelt inspires dramatic
variations : the stiff spikes and punk styles imitate the bristling aggression, and reproduce literally the thrills of terror, both given and received : these are hackles raised in emphasis. Perioxide blondes, like Marilyn Monroe in her winsome dumb babyish act, recall the fluffy down of some children's heads, or baby chicks, or ducklings.  The conflict btween the pretence at innocence and known sexiness creats the special effefct of the Hollywood blonde ..."  


During this discussion we've seen that  fairy tales were told in many parts of the world,
(e.g. an early Chinese version of Cinderella), the earliest legends shrouded in mythology. All of these  tales were transmitted orally.  Many centuries later came Charles Perrault, idle bourgeois though he may have been with too much time on his hands. It was he who collected the stories and put them all together. A century or so later came the Brothers Grimm, and there was also Giambattista Basile.

The tellers and sources were different; the tales had been told to different audiences; different languages were involved.  No wonder the versions are different !

 Blond hair, we know,  signifies virginity, innocence, vulnerability. And the  tradition, the   the ideal still exists, though perhaps we no longer take it literally in these modern times. Hollywood certainly hasn't let go - between [ i]Gentlemen Prefer Blondes[/i] or, more recently, Legally Blond.

The Scandinavians (Danes, Norwegians, Swedes and Icelanders) are predominantly fair-haired, and old Norse mythology describes them as such.  Millions in central Europeans are of Slav descent, and in Mediterranean countries dark-hair and darker complexions are the rule.

Even so I am not sure we can deduce that the fairy tales of of blond heroines originated in the north of Europe.




straudetwo

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Sorry the previous post looks relatively small (to my eyes, at least).  I was experimenting with a different font, but it may have been the wrong choice. Perhaps this one will be better.

roshanarose

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I have been doing a bit of web surfing re blondes in fairy stories.

Read an interesting article on www.amren.com entitled "Blondes through the Ages".  The article covers the preference for blondes by the Greeks and Romans, and the continuing preference right up to the present day.  

I am happy now.  My hair was always a sort of goldie coloured brown, which I hated.  Now that it is completely silver I love it.  Closer to platinum ;)


How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ursamajor

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I think the feminists' objections to fairy tales was the passivity of the heroines.  The maiden waits for someone to come and rescue her.  When the tales were composedDo maidens didn't really have any other choice.  Many or most marriages were contracted for reasons of property or alliances and the woman usually didn't have anything to say about it.

There are fairy tales with active heroines who pursue their own fates.  There is at least once collection of these stories but I don't remember the name.  Twelve Months comes closest of the stories we have looked at here.  Dobrunka at leasts influences her own fate by being nice to the men representing the months.

JoanP

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It's so good to see you all here - maybe we can get some of the questions about fairy tales answered before our time is over here...

roshanarose,  I was unable to read the site on blondes that you posted earlier, but persisted and I'm glad I did - here's another link to the American Renaissance article that you posted - the review of  Joanna Pitman's book, "On Blondes."  - http://www.amren.com/ar/2003/08/index.html#article2


Some interesting observations in the review- they made me smile when considering Marina Warner's comment which Traudee posted -

"Hair constitutes one's identity"

Don't you think that's funny after reading the review roshanarose brought us?  Did Warner include hair color when she said hair constitutes one's identity?  How about hair color that comes out of a bottle?

- "Blonde women are generally thought of as the most beautiful, not only in northern Europe and North America where many natural blondes live, but also in those parts of the world where blondes are rare.
It is understandable that women might want to look more like rulers or conquerors, but the women of Rome wanted to look like enemies who had been defeated and enslaved. The Roman preference for blondes seems to have been more than a matter of fashion or a passing desire for the exotic. "

- "During the Middle Ages women continued to dye their hair blonde, despite exhortations to the contrary by clerics, who pointed to the blonde tresses of the temptress Eve (perhaps thereby making blonde hair even more attractive). For the Europeans of this period, blonde hair represented dangerous eroticism, sexual temptation, and beauty, but also sexual purity, moral goodness, and spirituality."

-"Renaissance Italy and England continued to admire blonde hair. ...Venetian ladies devoted their Saturday afternoons to blonding their hair (they could choose from at least 36 recipes for bleach), and a contemporary noted that just as “the women of old time did most love yellow hair … the Venetian women at this day, and the Paduan, and those of Verona, and other parts of Italy practice the same vanity.”

- "In the twentieth century, blonde hair has reigned supreme as the pinnacle of beauty.  The blonde continues to be sought after by men worldwide.   " As one blonde Japanese 20-year-old explains, “It’s a form of rebellion, rejecting my Japaneseness in order to look more Western, to look better.  
Likewise, most of the women who appear on Mexican television could almost be mistaken for Norwegians. ”  

Quote
"Hair constitutes one's identity."
 Indeed! roshanarose, "golden brown" sounds wonderful to me - but then, so does "platinum" - which will constitute your identity.  I love it - hope mine goes platinum some time soon!

JoanP

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As I read the review of Joanna Pittman's book, I couldn't help but imagine the Feminist reaction to reading this.  Not sure exactly who these "Feminists" are - Warner talks about the Fems of the 70's but then later in the book talks about those writers (women) of today who are writing of girls who are less passive as Ursamajor  points out - than the maiden of Fairy Tales - who patiently waits for her rescuer -  

But where does that leave the beloved  tales of Perrault, of the Brothers Grimm?  JoanR asks an interesting question.  Do modern mothers of today read the old fairy tales to their children?  She is sure they must be.  JoanR, I wish I could say for sure that they do.  What do the rest of you think?   Fairy tales or not?  If you can reassure JoanR, please do!
 

roshanarose

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After reading Pittman I thought about many recent, well relatively recent, depictions of Jesus Christ.  He too, in many pictures included in Sunday School stories, had wavy golden locks and blue eyes.  Hardly what you would expect of a Jew from that time.  Many questions unanswered.  Instead of God creating us in his image, was it the other way around?
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

marcie

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There is an interesting article, based on a 2008 survey of what parents in the UK read to their children at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/4125664/Traditional-fairytales-not-PC-enough-for-parents.html

"Favourites such as Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Cinderella and Rapunzel are being dropped by some families who fear children are being emotionally damaged."


straudetwo

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Roshanarose,  I'm so glad you linked Mrs. Pittman's excellent article. In the context of this book it is important and just what we needed.
 
JoanP,  in the opening paragraphs of Chapter 22, The Language of Hair II, on pg. 317,  Marina Warner talks about human hair in general, ,   NOT specifically blond hair (though that, logically, would be included), and both genders.

She refers to Joan of Arc's cropped hair; the monk's tonsure; the ringlets of the Hasidic scholar; the GI.'s crewcut, and her point is well taken.





ursamajor

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We need to recognize that in the last generation there have been thousands of books published for young children.  Many of these deal with the kind of problems children have TODAY.  There is, for instance, a rather controversial book entitled something like "I have two mommies", about a family of two Lesbians and their child.  While the better known fairy tales like Cinderella will persist, through Disney if no other way, I think the Victorian fairy tales will be read less and less.  Most of these tales have little to say to modern children.

straudetwo

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Ursa, you raise a valid point.  
 
There are modern families with two mommies, and - for that matter -  ones with two daddies.  
And  books addressing these new family situations have been published.  But libraries have not  exactly rushed to implementation.  Also, there have  been very contentious, persistent protests by parents against the inclusion in the reading curriculum of any books pertaining to young children in non-traditional families.  

I know of one case, in or near Boston,  where the father,  a lawyer, withdrew his daughter from the public school she was attending when such a book was being discussed.  That was two or three years ago.  I have no idea how the case was resolved.

I believe we'll always have fairy tales. For our grandchildren, reading them may hinge on a question of relevance.





JoanP

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Quote
I believe we'll always have fairy tales. For our grandchildren, reading them may hinge on a question of relevance.  Traudee

I'm thinking about what you say, Traudee - whether our grandchildren will read the fairy tales - and if they don't, don't you thnk they will disappear - except in the Disney movies?  ANd even those are not shown much any more, are they?

Ursamajor  thinks "most of the tales have little to say to modern children."  Do you agree?

Marcie posted that article concerning a 2008 poll of mothers  in the UK- did you read that?  Stunning!
According to the survey -

Top 10 fairy tales we no longer read:

1. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

2. Hansel and Gretel

3. Cinderella

4. Little Red Riding Hood

5. The Gingerbread Man

6. Jack and the Beanstalk

7. Sleeping Beauty

8. Beauty and the Beast

9. Goldilocks and the Three Bears

10. The Emperor's New Clothes

What do you think, JoanR - if mothers are no longer reading Fairy Tales to their children, and if there is so much more out there that older kids find more relevant to their lives, do you think ...well, do you think Fairy Tales will fade away?

JoanP

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 When roshanarose posted yesterday about  depictions of Jesus Christ with wavy golden locks and blue eyes, I was reminded of something I had noted from B. Bettelheim in the introduction to his book at the start of this discussion.

He wrote - "Most fairy tales originated in periods when religion was a most important part of life; thus they deal, directly or by inference, with religious themes.  A great many Western fairy tales have religious content; but most of these stories are neglected today and unknown to the larger public just because for many, there religious themes no longer arouse universally and personally meaningful associations"
He adds - "Fairy tales abound in religious motifs; many only a small number of fairy tales are still widely known."

This got me thinking whether we are talking about something more than just the relevance of fairy tales today.

JoanR

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According to a librarian who responded to my questions, it does definitely seem as if fewer children are being read to these days and fewer children are being exposed to the kinds of literature that builds their imaginations.  Fewer children play as we did in a creative way - or just for fun without a "goal" having been set by the "experts".  Electronic gadgets can't make up for the freedom we had as children.
I think that the old tales will survive - Ancient Rome and Greece vanished but their literature is still here.  There will always be some who will save our stories.

JoanP

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JoanR - I'm afraid your librarian is right.  Yesterday I went back to the Bettelheim and found these notes -

"Fairy tales abound in religious motifs; many Biblical stories are of the same nature as fairy tales."

"Throughout history a child's intellectual life depended on mythical, religious stories and fairy tales."

  While we might not agree with him this psychologist on everything, I think he's on to something when he talks of the
the influence of the reading of fairy tales - and Biblical stories - on a child's moral development.
Does your librarian talk about the type of books kids are reading today?  Do they take the place of the old tales with their intrinsic morals?

 Here's another question for all  - do you think children read Bible Stories to the extent they one were?


JoanP

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We'll leave the lights on here for a day or two for final comments.  Thank you all for sharing favorite tales and insights.  I have to admit, I learned more than I ever thought I would before we started. 

marcie

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JoanP, thank you for your wonderful leadership helping us delve into this complex and wondrous topic. And thanks to all of you other participants from whom I also learned a lot.

JoanR

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JoanP - Thank you for patiently leading us all through a discussion of what soon became a much more complex subject than one would have thought initially.  It's been a fun and illuminating journey.  I'm glad to have been on it.  Now that I see how many, many more tales are out there, I'll continue to look for them.  Thanks again!!

roshanarose

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JoanP - You opened many new doors for me.  Thank You.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JoanP

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The discussion was an eye-opener, wasn't it?  As you say, JoanR, much more complex than anticipated.  We did learn a lot - read some wondrous tales and then there were those such as Sleeping Beauty that I can never erase from my mind.  The story was "spoiled"  for me.  (This is not to say that others were)

roshanarose - I found an interesting article that hints at "new doors"  and leaves some hope that the genre will continue  -  t- I'm not sure if I agree completely with all of this - nor do I want to leave behind in the archives the fairy tales of old - but this probably provides insight into how how they will be viewed in the future  and what will take their place -

 This article speaks of  the fact that  fairy tales reflect lived realities of the writers and readers so  perhaps future stories in keeping with the feminist project may one day reflect a new reality, a more prejudice‐free world.  For those of you who are interested in the future of fairy tales -

Quote
"Historically, the feminist theoretical response to fairy tales is a product of the Women's Movement in the United States and Europe and grew out of attacks on patriarchy in the late 1960s by feminists like Simone de Beauvoir, Adrienne Rich, and Betty Friedan. This debate spawned a broad discussion about literary practices and their effects on the socializing process. In the popular press, texts like Madonna Kolbenschlag's Kiss Sleeping Beauty Goodbye: Breaking the Spell of Feminine Myths and Models (1979), Colette Dowling's 1981 best‐seller The Cinderella Complex: Women's Hidden Fear of Independence explored these issues, while within the academy, folklorists and literary critics developed critiques informed by the debate.

 Feminist folklorists like Claire Farrer demonstrated how in the Western tradition patriarchal practices have kept men in the role of editors and compilers to the exclusion of women. She found that folklore collectors consulted men about stories and their experiences as raconteurs, but consulted females only for information on such subjects as ‘charms, cures, and quaint beliefs’. Other feminists levelled attacks against the critical and research apparatus for working with fairy tales. Torborg Lundell, for example, argued that primary texts in folklore and fairy‐tale research, like Antti Aarne and Stith Thompson's The Types of the Folktale and Thompson's Motif Index of Folk Literature, have an inherent gender bias, ignoring strong heroines through selective labelling, misleading plot summaries, and placing the focus on male rather than female characters

That the long tradition of feminist fairy tales is as yet generally unknown to the larger public has to do with the methods of canon formation, publishing history, and the distribution of power and literature within patriarchy, as Marina Warner has demonstrated in her significant study From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairytales and their Tellers (1994). The question remains as to what the next step will be. Recent work by feminists such as Karen Rowe and Cristina Bacchilega suggests there have been significant advances brought about by the interactions between feminist theorizing and feminist practice. The anthologies of so‐called alternative stories are, in fact, equally valid primary stories of realms of experience and longings for a better world the fairy tale can make real."
Feminism and Fairy Tales

straudetwo

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JoanP,  thank you for the quote from this interesting article and the link. I read it in toto. How unfortunate that we can't talk about it further.

The author (whose name I could not find) surprisingly (to me) considers all feminist writings as feminist fairy tales.  I'd say that is a debatable point.
(There's no mention of Germaine Greer, whose book  The Female Eunuch (1970) caused quite a stir.)

As to the future of fairy tales, my feelings are similar to what JoanR has expressed in her # 269.
Thank you for an absorbing, far-ranging discussion and all the had work you did.

In haste :  I'm preparing (or trying to) for hurricane Earl.

roshanarose

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Although a fairly simplistic explanation for the shift (if any) away from fairy tales, would depend on the "keepers" of the fairy tales.  ie those individuals, male and female, who learned to love fairytales when they were small and who passed their favourites down generation to generation.  If I had had granddaughters I would have been a keeper, with grandsons, even though the first stories they heard were fairy stories, my daughter saw to that, the young boys of today have their computers at their disposal and DVDs etc.  Star Wars are my grandsons' ideal, so to speak.

I am not for a moment saying that all young boys follow this pattern.  And good on them.

The new doors btw were the doors behind which the "hidden" stories of tales were to be found, not necessarily replacements for fairy tales.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JoanP

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Thank you both for your closing thoughts.  roshanarose, thank you for clarifying - actually I think we opened the back door to learn the stories behind the old tales - and we even opened the front door to peek at the sort of  fairy tales tomorrow's children will read.  (Not to say that we, the  "keepers"  will stop spinning the old tales...as long as we can.  Consider how many years they've been around!

It really has been a fascinating discussion, full of surprises and new insights.  Thanks you all so much.  This discussion will now reside in the Archives, complete with links to the many tales which will live there - happily ever after. ;)