Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 725049 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4000 on: July 12, 2016, 09:12:23 AM »
Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets


2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.



April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.


A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.


Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1


Shakespeare Anniversary Links
Discussion Leaders: Barb




It may not fit with anyone else's response to Sonnet VIII, but these 3 songs came immediately to mind. For me, it is a powerful undercurrent of a barren aloneness and a sense of despair that fuels them all. I won't give the titles to keep you in suspense. (They may start with annoying "Skip ads", so please do - skip the ads, that is.)

If nothing else, they are a good listen.

https://youtu.be/d5ab8BOu4LE

https://youtu.be/GX9A5vv-jOM

https://youtu.be/gtwUyDPXROQ
The lyrics of this one may be almost as challenging as those of Shakespeare.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4001 on: July 12, 2016, 09:14:32 AM »
I wonder now that you say this Karen - except by this time in his life he already had a family.

Here is a nice explanation of his early in life marriage and start of his family

http://www.william-shakespeare.info/william-shakespeare-biography-marriage-wife-anne-hathaway.htm

thought - maybe he was writing from experience that he was attempting to share with others his wisdom???
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4002 on: July 12, 2016, 09:54:23 AM »
Sonnet Xll

I see Shakespeare saying we can not defy time nor death.  We all will eventually die, beauty does not last forever, just as the seasons change....the leaves die off, the grass dies off, the flowers die off, Winter's beauty is lost to Spring, and Summer's beauty is lost to Fall, etc., we all will die, and only in having children can your individual beauty carry on.

As a Christian, my belief is in life everlasting, so although I know my body will decay once I have died, my soul will live on, and through the memories and children/grandchildren, and generations to come, I too live on through them, even though future generations will have never known me.  I imagine in the hereafter, I will be able to get a glance at all those who come from my lineage, and they too shall know me in the ever after.  I'm suspecting Shakespeare was not much of a spiritual person, because so far he speaks nothing of life after death.  I could be wrong since we are only in the earlier Sonnets, and as someone pointed out he would only be in his early 30's.  Maybe as he ages he will come closer to believing in an afterlife.  Or maybe it's just my wishful thinking, since I know nothing of him or his writings except for what I am learning now in his Sonnets.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4003 on: July 12, 2016, 01:06:58 PM »
Barb: The painting - is that a marker with a nymph-like figure next to it and a green wreath in front of their feet. First impression is that they are sitting before a small grave - I am imagining an aging childless couple visiting with a child that was lost to them. Guess S. Is getting to me!😔

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4004 on: July 12, 2016, 01:18:11 PM »
The Fair Youth of the
Shakespeare Sonnets

Southampton (Hilliard portrait)Henry Wriothesley, the third Earl of Southampton is the Fair Youth of the Sonnets by William Shakespeare. Here are the most basic reasons for coming to this conclusion beyond any reasonable doubt:

“Shakespeare” dedicated his first two published books to Southampton, Venus and Adonis (1593) and Lucrece (1594), pledging: “The love I dedicate to your Lordship is without end … What I have done is yours, what I have to do is yours, being part in all I have, devoted yours.”  This is the only evidence of any link between “Shakespeare” and any younger man.
In Sonnet 26 the author addresses the younger man in terms and sentiments virtually the same as those he used in the Lucrece dedication to Southampton: “Lord of my love,” he begins the sonnet, “to whom in vassalage thy merit hath my duty knit, to thee I send this written ambassage, to witness duty, not to show my wit.  Duty so great…”  [The word “duty” appears three times in the course of the two public dedications; the author also uses it three times in Sonnet 26.]   
Thirty-six lines spoken by the goddess Venus in Venus and Adonis, dedicated to Southampton, are virtually carbon copies of lines in the first seventeen of Shakespeare’s sonnets, thereby linking the earl to those private verses.
Most commentators have agreed that Southampton is the subject of Sonnets 1-17, in which the author urges the younger man to marry and beget an heir of his bloodline.  They have agreed that the context of these “marriage and procreation” sonnets was the active pressure that William Cecil Lord Burghley was putting upon Southampton to marry his granddaughter Lady Elizabeth Vere, daughter of Edward de Vere, the seventeenth Earl of Oxford [who had denied his paternity of her].  If Oxford was the author, then he was the prospective father-in-law – on the public record, if not biologically.  On Shakespeares sonnets monument page
e

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4005 on: July 12, 2016, 01:21:38 PM »
Bellamarie yes the Sonnets do not talk of a future for our souls - I am wondering though if it is because at the time he had to keep his religious point of view a secret or he would end up like his uncle - killed and quartered in London - I always heard the expression quartered and only in the past couple of years learned what the process really is - four horses each tied to one of you limbs pull till you are torn apart - and so Shakespeare I am sure wanted to live and he hid his Catholic faith.

With so many hidden political messages in his writings I think it was either PatH or maybe Karen or Leah or maybe it was Joan - anyhow, earlier the suggestion was made that these were actually messages in disguise for the Queen who never married and had children.  Kinda think there is something to that idea.

By the time Shakespeare was 30 his eldest child would be 11 or 12 years old. 

Another approach to reading these Sonnets is that unless you produce - which can be a metaphor to acting on your faith - unless you act on your faith it grows useless as the body does as it ages - to profess your faith is not enough - you must, while you can act on your faith because after death there is no more action.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4006 on: July 12, 2016, 01:28:33 PM »
ah so Karen - you found us some interesting information

"They have agreed that the context of these “marriage and procreation” sonnets was the active pressure that William Cecil Lord Burghley was putting upon Southampton to marry his granddaughter Lady Elizabeth Vere, daughter of Edward de Vere, the seventeenth Earl of Oxford [who had denied his paternity of her].  If Oxford was the author, then he was the prospective father-in-law – on the public record, if not biologically."

Good show - even a better explanation than a message to the Queen - but - however ;) there is always a however - :) A Sonnet would not continue to be read for 400 years if it only contained a message to one person - look at the other poets from that time, who also wrote Sonnets and we do not have reams of books sold year in and year out containing their Sonnets - and so with that I think the metaphors Shakespeare uses are strong enough to take the Sonnet beyond the obvious so that folks can see the advise work in many areas of life.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4007 on: July 12, 2016, 01:36:22 PM »
whow look at the heritage to the Vere family

http://www.houseofvere.com/

here is Wm Cecil Lord Burghley - who was the Lord High Treasurer
and next to him is the portrait of Edward de Vere the father of Elizabeth

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4008 on: July 12, 2016, 01:50:31 PM »
Oh sorry Leah - missed your post - yes, it appears to be a grave doesn't it - to me that made the metaphor the more stronger of youth dying and we cannot count on reaching old age and also the idea of parenting what could be that was cut down before its fruition.

For me, especially after reading Bellamaries's post, these Sonnets are working best as a metaphor to other aspects of life - and if they have any direct meaning that is fine but they are really beautifully constructed and the use of words is a balm to my spirit - really I feel such a calm reading the day's Sonnet.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4009 on: July 12, 2016, 02:24:31 PM »
Barb, that is truly amazing because I felt agitated. All of the images remind me that all things die. "Not I" I always thought.  When I read the about the sheaves on the bier, I really felt death.  Shakespeare was jogging me out of denial and telling me to get ready.  I guess it's time to make a will

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4010 on: July 12, 2016, 03:01:17 PM »
You too Karen - only this week I finally realized I have to get something on paper - my possessions are what is valuable - a lot of art work and really good knives and cookware - so I need to inventory this house - I have art paper weights and original water colors - the house is easy, it is all the 'stuff' that does have value and NO granddaughter.

I've gradually been giving my daughter and daughter-in-law my jewelry for various events - and my daughter-in-law lost her engagement ring diamond so I gave her mine and she had it beautifully set - the diamond was larger than her original so they had to redesign the ring and it turned out beautiful - makes me so happy.

I got a book about writing directives for your health which my son really wants me to do - and I need to continue to clear out all the saved projects etc that I have to accept that I will never get to do them - wrapping it up as if cleaning up after a party - me oh my - but once done I am free than to enjoy and just be with no expectations to do more than take care of enjoying each day...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4011 on: July 12, 2016, 03:33:05 PM »
I read the biographical material about S and wife Anne.
And I ran across this several days ago and tagged it for future reading - it is a challenge for me to read it due to the sort of 'dated' ? form of expression in the writing; but it does seem to cover a lot of info about the relationships between Southampton and Wriothesley if anyone else is interested and wants some (en)LIGHT(ening) reading. 🔮 Sounds like everyone is just guessing about his life - no crystal balls!
http://www.oxquarry.co.uk/KlauseIntro.html
Shakespeare, the Earl, and the Jesuit, by John Klause




BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4012 on: July 12, 2016, 04:36:06 PM »
Weeeee I started to read the book Leah thinking it was all contained in the page you linked - ha - it goes on and on - more than just a 15 minute read - fun and yes, it appears to sort out much that has been only conjecture.

The series I thought also did a good job of actually visiting the places where Shakespeare could be most associated with a Catholic bent and a good biography without the psychoanalysis of attempting to show various aspects of his life as the basis for one of his plays or poems is the work of Michael Wood - The book is In Search of Shakespeare by Michael Wood.  We read the book here on Senior Learn after which it became a PBS series - here is a link to the series that you can see in full.

http://www.pbs.org/shakespeare/theshow/index.html

Michael Wood is like the Ken Burns of Britain only Michael goes all over the world in his search for filming places we read about in history and literature where as Ken Burns is busy telling us the story of our own United States of America.

But like you Leah I will have to read the book you linked for us in sections - looks like there is a lot there and the way it is written it sure helps to know Shakespeare's plays.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4013 on: July 12, 2016, 05:28:42 PM »
Yeah, Barb, it is definitely retirement reading for those with more background in S. than I currently have! 😧

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4014 on: July 12, 2016, 05:36:29 PM »
" if I lived my life believing that all that I am will be gone, I can see how I might see having children in a different light."

An interesting point. I believe there is a lot of speculation about Shakespeare's religious beliefs. he was born a catholic and may have even taught in an underground Catholic School (for which he could have been executed, if caught, in those horrible days of religious intolerance. Of course, he conformed to the religious edicts of the Protestant regime in his public life.

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4015 on: July 12, 2016, 05:51:47 PM »
The German sociologist, Max Weber, in  trying to understand society, said all peoples everywhere try to do two things. First, they try to stay alive: get the material things they need. But a life spent staying alive is meaningless, since it always fails. So the second thing people do is try to make life meaningful ion the face of death. If you can understand how people do these two things, you can understand the society.

When I taught, I would quote him to my into class, and ask the young people (most around 16-20) what are the ways people make life meaningful in the face of death. I expected them to say "religion", but they never did - I would always have to drag that answer out of them. The first thing they always said is "having children."

Perhaps it is a matter of age. I don't know. I've noticed men in their thirties often turn their thoughts to family, but most of my students were younger than that.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4016 on: July 12, 2016, 05:59:50 PM »
Joan your post reminds me of another poet - a simple story teller who wrote children's tails, Hans Christian Anderson, who said...

"Just living is not enough,“ said the butterfly, “one must have sunshine, freedom, and a little flower".
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4017 on: July 12, 2016, 06:04:09 PM »
Barb, 
Quote
Another approach to reading these Sonnets is that unless you produce - which can be a metaphor to acting on your faith - unless you act on your faith it grows useless as the body does as it ages - to profess your faith is not enough - you must, while you can act on your faith because after death there is no more action.

Ah ha!!!  I think you could be onto something here.  Much like PatH., mentioned Shakespeare could be speaking messages in disguise to the Queen, he could also be speaking hidden messages of faith.  Now you have my attention!!  Since I know nothing of Shakespeare I had NO idea he was a religious man, Catholic, and Christian.  Now I really can see these Sonnets through a better light.  I kept thinking I saw hidden scripture, but then I thought it was me injecting my own spiritual thoughts and beliefs. And now JoanK, mentions he could have taught in underground Catholic school.  I have no doubt he found it much more productive to keep his faith under the Lamp table so to speak, than to be "quartered" what a horrible image after reading your description of what it entails.

With my hubby and I both being retired it seems everything we do, it has a bit of thought about getting rid of collected stuff we have accumulated over the years so our children will not have to do it.  We have come to the conclusion our kids do not want or need our things we saved.  I have collector dolls, Precious Moments, Angels, jewelry, and Dickens Village that has value. I have one daughter who is not really into any of these things, and 4 granddaughters who some I'm not so sure would care about them either.  It was my enjoyment to collect them.  My hubby loves his Dickens village and our 8 yr old grandson LOVES it, so I am pretty sure we will name it to him to have.  My youngest granddaughter LOVES dolls so she would probably cherish them as I have.  Oh, I just hate even thinking of this.....  as Scarlett would say, "I'll think about that tomorrow."
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4018 on: July 12, 2016, 06:42:00 PM »
Good choice Bellamarie "as Scarlett would say, "I'll think about that tomorrow." You do put it off until all of a sudden you realize the time is come - time is slipping away and there is barely time for a 10 year plan but for sure, no 20 year plan - after loosing a few friends, Father Time peeks in and says, 'you better start getting ready or you will have no say in what happens'.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4019 on: July 12, 2016, 09:00:48 PM »
Talk of butterflies always ALWAYS reminds me of Rabindranath Tagore who wrote:
"The butterfly counts not by months but moments,
And has time enough."
I've included some additional intel about him - After I read it, I felt a broadening effect on my view of Shakespeare.,  Probably just me.

The entire poem is:

"I touch God in my song"
by Rabindranath Tagore

English version by Rabindranath Tagore

I touch God in my song
      as the hill touches the far-away sea
            with its waterfall.

The butterfly counts not months but moments,
      and has time enough.

Let my love, like sunlight, surround you
      and yet give you illumined freedom.

Love remains a secret even when spoken,
      for only a lover truly knows that he is loved.

Emancipation from the bondage of the soil
      is no freedom for thee.

In love I pay my endless debt to thee
      for what thou art


In this poem’s few short lines, Rabindranath Tagore marries the bhakti path of utter love for God with the heart of karma yoga’s union through service and action.

In traditional Indian metaphysics, the goal is usually understood to be enlightenment and freedom from the karmic tug that traps us in the cycle of earthly embodiment, “emancipation from the bondage of the soil.” But here Tagore challenges the otherworldliness that often engenders.

Even the spiritual idea of liberation can become a selfish goal. For one utterly in love with God, the paying of that “debt” is simply a labor of love. Every effort, every experience, even suffering, is simply an expression of one’s love for God. That is enough right there for the true lover of God.
Rather than seeking escape from “the soil,” the world is seen as a panorama that offers endless opportunities to worship and experience the Divine.

It is also the attitude that finally allows us to be at rest on our spiritual journey, rather than live as a convict on the run. What some see as the prison yard, becomes instead an exercise yard… or a playground! It is a courageous way of acknowledging that freedom is not escape, it is deep presence.

And we find that we live not in fleeting time, but in the ever expanding present moment.

The butterfly counts not months but moments,
      and has time enough.

Rabindranath Tagore (sometimes rendered in a more modern transliteration as Thakur or Thakura) was one of the great writers of the early 20th century.

Rabindranath Tagore was born to a wealthy Brahmin family in Calcutta (Kolkata) in West Bengal during the British occupation of India.

His mother died when “Rabi” was a young child and his father’s responsibilities often required travel, leaving Rabindranath to be raised by elder siblings and family servants. His family was central to regional political, intellectual, and artistic social circles, however, ensuring that the young Tagore was exposed to great art and learning from an early age.

Tagore began composing poetry by the age of six and showed such a natural gift that he, at the age of sixteen, published a set of poems under a pseudonym that was mistakenly received by critics as a long-lost masterpiece. Only later was it revealed that the author was the adolescent Tagore.

As an older teenager, Tagore was sent to study in England, but soon left school to more actively feed his wide-ranging interests through self-study.

At the beginning of the 20th century, Tagore established an ashram as a place for learning, teaching, and agricultural experimentation.

Tagore was a strong advocate for Indian nationalism in opposition to British imperial rule, while criticizing the most violent expressions of revolution.

During his lifetime, Tagore traveled extensively, meeting the world’s great writers, scientists, political leaders, and social reformers.

Rabindranath Tagore was also an accomplished painter, as well as a musician and prolific composer, with more than 2,000 songs to his credit.

Tagore’s poetry draws from the rich devotional poetic traditions of India, but rendered in a highly fluid, contemporary style. His impact on world poetry and literature is immense, especially writing that explores the modern mind through the mystic’s lens. Countless literary figures of the 20th century cite Tagore as an important influence and source of inspiration. Although his library of poetry is extensive, his most widely read and loved collection is The Gitanjali.

In 1913, he became the first non-European to with the Nobel Prize in Literature.

     

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4020 on: July 12, 2016, 11:02:23 PM »
Barb, I find it interesting how you said, 
Quote
Father Time peeks in and says, 'you better start getting ready or you will have no say in what happens'.

My mother left a book that almost listed everything she owned, and had one of us seven siblings name along each item.  Or she actually wrote one of our names under or behind an item.  It sure made my sister's job of executive power easy.  No way was anyone of us going to dispute our Mom's very handwriting.  I'm just not sure how much say I really want.  I will turn sixty-four on the twenty-sixth of this month, so far I am in good health, so I think I will hope to have another twenty years God willing to figure it all out.  In the meantime, we are getting rid of the clutter.  I love Scarlett O'Hara, her quote taught me to slow down, don't make decisions in haste, take a day or two to think about it. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4021 on: July 13, 2016, 02:40:34 AM »
Thanks Leah for the background on the life of Rabindranath Tagore - his poetry seems to enlarge on the Max Weber question that Joan brought to our attention - the question, How do "people make life meaningful in the face of death," that her students answered with "having children"

I am thinking what they are really saying is life is meaningful when we live for more than ourselves - raising children is the closest and easiest idea/example that comes to mind, that is to our deepest core, living for more than ourselves. Where as Rabindranath's poetry says to me that it is not the return of affection from others that matters or the acknowledgement of the affect of our love to others - it is as if the process of love is self contained - that by acting from love and believing in love we become love, regardless if another responds because real love is not about expectation, real love is a precious giving and caring.   

Bellamarie your mother's notebook sounds like a perfect solution - and yep, you've got lots of vim and vinegar to live out - you are only a year and a half older than my daughter :)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4022 on: July 13, 2016, 02:46:53 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XIII


O, that you were yourself! but, love, you are
No longer yours than you yourself here live:
Against this coming end you should prepare,
And your sweet semblance to some other give.
So should that beauty which you hold in lease
Find no determination: then you were
Yourself again after yourself's decease,
When your sweet issue your sweet form should bear.
Who lets so fair a house fall to decay,
Which husbandry in honour might uphold
Against the stormy gusts of winter's day
And barren rage of death's eternal cold?
O, none but unthrifts: -- Dear my love, you know
You had a father; let your son say so.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIkonjnRfK8

Medieval Music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PopJfFLyvM&index=11&list=PL5E34C92D6498E16C
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4023 on: July 13, 2016, 02:20:02 PM »
Hmm.... when I first looked at the picture I got excited because I just love the look of new fallen snow, but then reading the sonnet and looking again at the picture I felt a bit sad, depressed to see it looking more like a gravesite.  Shakespeare is saying ultimately the beauty you hold in life will eventually die, so allow it to continue in your child.  The last line kinda struck me,

"You had a father; let your son say so."

He is saying, your father had you to carry on and care for his lot after he is gone, so in essence, so should you do the same.  A bit like it is your obligation as being a part of a family, to continue it.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4024 on: July 13, 2016, 06:02:40 PM »
LEAH: I love Tagore also, but didn't know that poem. It's wonderful!

Who wrote that summary of his work and life? Did you?

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4025 on: July 13, 2016, 06:23:53 PM »
Leah, I have never heard of Rabindranath Tagore, thank you for the lovely butterfly poem, and the info on him.

I especially love this:   
Quote
For one utterly in love with God, the paying of that “debt” is simply a labor of love. Every effort, every experience, even suffering, is simply an expression of one’s love for God. That is enough right there for the true lover of God.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4026 on: July 13, 2016, 08:53:21 PM »
Oh, I get so frustrated when a post is almost ready and then it disappears!!!! GRRR!

OK, here it is - I forgot to credit the link for the Tagore summary. I surely did not write it, JoanK!
http://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/blog/2014/10/17/rabindranath-tagore-i-touch-god-in-my-song-2/. There is a lovely photo of him if you scroll down a bit.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4027 on: July 13, 2016, 09:01:40 PM »
About the photo posted with the sonnet - did anyone notice the duck mother and duckling in the center of the circular ring? - the whole image suggests a maze to me, and the duck statues (if that is what they are) made me smile. If it weren't for that imagery, I, too, would have thought it made a rather dark impression.

I have nothing to say about the sonnet - I am kind of looking forward to his next theme - surely he won't go on about this for all 154 sonnets - eh?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4028 on: July 14, 2016, 01:49:02 AM »
Oh yes, Leah - especially when you spilled out all that is you in a post - oh oh oh  - the loss is beyond annoying bordering on devastating. Ha I had not noticed the duck statues till you mentioned them - wonderful.

We only have 4 more of these that are focused on reproducing for posterity - an advantage we never guessed when we started to read  Sonnet a Day - who knew until we actually read them - amazing is that he can write a Sonnet on the same theme 17 times - now that is an accomplishment that helps to see how a topic can have many views and 17 all from one author - I must say a few of these viewpoints that Shakespeare uses never occurred to me - which of the sonnets did you find a new way of challenging a viewpoint?

Came on this by accident last night and thought maybe y'all would enjoy it - it is some quotes from a few Shakespeare's plays spoken in the Globe Theater using the old English spoken during the time of Shakespeare - just seeing the inside of the Globe is a treat in itself - but fun is one example that is directly tied to the Sonnet's message we have been reading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s

Lovely isn't it Bellamarie and Joan to read the gentle poetry of Rabindranath Tagore. Do you have any books of his poetry? So many wonderful poets - I keep thinking I should stop reading novels etc. for a month and just read poems - amerce myself in words and rhythms

My plan for the next 4 days of this similar theme is to find the line that I admire and like to hear the sound of it when I say it aloud.

This is the line I enjoy - Against the stormy gusts of winter's day

Saying it aloud I was tempted to say 'a' winter's day and had to re-read and catch myself that there was no preposition 'a' - That was when I found the majesty in the sentence - hear the difference - putting the 'a' in makes it ordinary and almost dull - where as without the 'a' the sentence moves and I want to hear more - as I read it, 'stormy' took on some energy where as when I stuck that 'a' into the sentence it sounds almost singsong and the phrase dies because winter's day gets the energy and also, 'a' winter's day slows down the phrase.

Yep, this is the sentence I like most in this Sonnet.  ;D
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4029 on: July 14, 2016, 01:52:20 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XIV


Not from the stars do I my judgment pluck;
And yet methinks I have astronomy,
But not to tell of good or evil luck,
Of plagues, of dearths, or seasons' quality;
Nor can I fortune to brief minutes tell,
Pointing to each his thunder, rain and wind,
Or say with princes if it shall go well,
By oft predict that I in heaven find:
But from thine eyes my knowledge I derive,
And, constant stars, in them I read such art
As truth and beauty shall together thrive,
If from thyself to store thou wouldst convert;
Or else of thee this I prognosticate:
Thy end is truth's and beauty's doom and date.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhxMoimmi4k
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4030 on: July 14, 2016, 10:30:18 AM »
Barb, I enjoyed the youtube video.  Phonology especially when reading sonnets/poems is important, since one can change a meaning or feeling of a word by the pronunciation of it.  Emphasizing on either the first, or last syllable of a word can actually give a different type of feeling to the sentence, or as you pointed out, leaving out the "a" makes a difference.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4031 on: July 14, 2016, 10:48:11 AM »
Leah, I am with you, there almost is very little to say anymore reading the same theme in all these sonnets.


Barb, Good to know there are only four more of these dealing with procreation and the importance of it.  He has made his point that you don't seem to count for much if you do not add to the population and lineage.  It makes me wonder how women felt who were not able to get impregnated.  They certainly didn't have the medical technology and methods back then as they do today to rectify it.  And then not always does that even work.  It's difficult enough for a woman to realize who wants to have a child that there is never going to be that possibility, but egads, to read Shakespeare and hear him say you are almost worthless if you don't sure makes things even more sad and bleak for them.  My daughter has never been able to conceive, after tests and examinations it appears her husband had a botched surgery before they married preventing him from producing viable sperm.  They have not had the income to try any other procedures.  She is going to be forty-four years old and still longs to have a baby.  Imagine if she lived in Shakespeare's time dealing with his attitude, which I am sure many others shared, her pain and struggle to be childless would be even greater than it is today.

Sonnet XlV  Is pretty much repeating all the others about procreation, he just puts in that he can not predict the happenings by looking at the stars etc., but he can forecast the beauty to live on, if you pass it on to your child.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4032 on: July 14, 2016, 11:17:44 AM »
well, we do have a new ides here: his knowledge comes, "not from the stars" but "from your eyes":

"And, constant stars, in them I read such art
As truth and beauty shall together thrive,"

It's almost as if the last part, about having children, is stuck on. Maybe he had some reason for writing about having children, but he's getting tired of it too, and looking for new ideas.

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4033 on: July 14, 2016, 11:19:58 AM »
My favorite line is "Pointing to each his thunder, rain and wind," (although it's not clear out of context.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4034 on: July 14, 2016, 11:35:15 AM »
Hey! I have an idea! Let's go back to #1 and read them all in the Old English just to make sure we haven't missed any puns or word plays!! Waddya say? 🤓

It is intriguing to learn that Shakespeare's plays performed in the Old English would reveal new meanings, rhymes, and - who knows - maybe a trapdoor or three! Cool video of the Globe Theatre, thanks, Barb!

The phrase "constant stars" reminded me of this little interchange in Joni Mitchell's song called "A Case of You":
Just before our love got lost you said
"I am as constant as a northern star" and I said
Constantly in the darkness
Where's that at
If you want me I'll be in the bar.


The other totally unrelated association that surfaced was from the phrase "truth and beauty."
There used to be a snack food called Bugles, I think it was, and part of the tv jingle used the words: "love, truth, beauty, corn, and a little salt."

The other day I ran across a humongous list of phrases coined by Shakespeare that are part of the 'common vernacular.' So, keep your eyes and ears open during those annoying tv commercials; there might be some culture that has seeped in - ya never can tell! 😃

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4035 on: July 14, 2016, 12:02:40 PM »
It seems that the term  'astrology' had not yet been born as he uses "astronomy" with the same meaning. I like the sound of the initial line when read aloud - especially the last word "pluck." There is a satisfying snap to it.

To those who are in the know about Latin: does his word order sometimes follow Latin rules? (Won't know about things like that until Ginny's Latin course revs up in September.)

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4036 on: July 14, 2016, 05:39:18 PM »
JoanK.,   
Quote
It's almost as if the last part, about having children, is stuck on. Maybe he had some reason for writing about having children, but he's getting tired of it too, and looking for new ideas.

OMG,  I laughed out loud when I read this!!  Yes, there are only so many ways to say...Have children!!   Now he is searching the universe for comparisons and other ways to say it. 

I especially liked this line:   

But from thine eyes my knowledge I derive,

I love how looking into her eyes he sees truth and beauty.

Leah, I'm not sure I can go back again 1 - 14 and decipher in Old English if we missed anything.  Have at it!!   ;)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4037 on: July 14, 2016, 08:39:54 PM »
Just kidding, Bellamaire! But you knew that, right?

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4038 on: July 14, 2016, 11:38:52 PM »
Leah,  I hope you know I was just kidding as well.  It's hard to tell when it's texting.    :)  :)  :)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4039 on: July 15, 2016, 01:48:32 AM »
OH lordy - today was a day - an out-of-town client having difficulty understanding he must get to the lender any and all financial information and employment information the underwriter needs - his response to everyone is one of Joan's favorite phrases -"Pointing to each his thunder, rain and wind," How his wife puts up with it I have no idea - cannot go there - been trying to climb out of his rain tank or better yet, his wind tunnel - sheesh.

Such a lovely conversation y'all are having - yes, my dream would be to spend time here today and not with Mr. Thunder, rain and wind.

Haha that would be fun though, to read the Sonnets in Old English Leah but the thought just now of Sonnet 1 through 10 - oh oh oh - the more you think on it - I wonder if the rhythm of the sounds would be that different. As to the sound of jingles could not find the Bugle song but found this interesting website about famous jingle songs - https://coolrain44.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/tv-commercial-greatest-slogans-jingles-taglines-catchphrases/

Bellamarie thank goodness for those faces - words said as tersely as needed using today's media sure allows for teasing to sound serious or non-compassionate doesn't it - ah so...

Pluck - a lively word isn't it - pluck strings - have some pluck - and in this case it appears pluck meaning to take. - hmm come to think on it, plucking strings could be taking sound from a string - yes, Leah nice crisp sound.

Have you looked at the moon tonight - it is not full but my goodness how bright - and surprising a few stars nearby are really bright as well - been trying to water the backyard at night so the sun does not drink up the water immediately as it leaves the hose - just one week of triple digits and we already have parched lawns - I wonder if the clear air that comes with these high temps is why we see the moon and stars so bright. 

Stars, stars - "Not from the stars do I my judgment pluck;" - "And, constant stars, in them I read such art As truth and beauty shall together thrive," I like the idea of those two separate thoughts as an extension of each other.

Truth and beauty - "Obsessed by a fairy tale, we spend our lives searching for a magic door and a lost kingdom of truth and beauty." Remember a good friend saying that when we were bemoaning our experience expecting truth and justice. I'm thinking that kind of expectation is no different than being a child and thinking you could pluck the stars from the night sky -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2qVTj5JQ_w

ha Bellamarie I too think it is a fun idea that he "stuck" the bit about having children on the end - that he too is growing weary with his thesis. 3 more folks, just 3 more...   :-*
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe