Author Topic: Poetry Page (Read 725062 times)

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4040 on:** July 15, 2016, 02:24:04 AM »

Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets

2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.

April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.

A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.

Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1

Shakespeare Anniversary Links

Discussion Leaders: Barb

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4041 on:** July 15, 2016, 02:27:46 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet XV

When I consider every thing that grows
Holds in perfection but a little moment,
That this huge stage presenteth nought but shows
Whereon the stars in secret influence comment;
When I perceive that men as plants increase,
Cheered and cheque'd even by the self-same sky,
Vaunt in their youthful sap, at height decrease,
And wear their brave state out of memory;
Then the conceit of this inconstant stay
Sets you most rich in youth before my sight,
Where wasteful Time debateth with Decay,
To change your day of youth to sullied night;
And all in war with Time for love of you,
As he takes from you, I engraft you new.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ6xILixWWs

JoanK · « **Reply #4042 on:** July 15, 2016, 10:54:23 AM »

BARB: I love the pictures you find.

I'm going to have to think about this one.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4043 on:** July 15, 2016, 12:17:19 PM »

Whew talk about a convoluted sentence - no wonder some folks give poetry a bad rap.

That this huge stage presenteth nought but shows
Whereon the stars in secret influence comment;

Seems to me he is saying as he does in one of his plays that all the world is a stage and what happens or that stage or what we say on the stage is influenced more by the stars in secret then by the stage itself.

Interesting concept - so what are the secrets of the stars during the 16th century would be my next question.

Here is a map of the heavens done in 1600 attempting to show the heavens not as filled with Greek Mythology but rather as a map of Christian images

And so that is the key then isn't it - the secret of the stars are still wrapped in mythology and the stories of the Greek gods would be the secrets to how man chooses to perform on life's stage. While Roman Catholics are attempting to elevate world stage behavior to emulate Christian saints.

At least that is the clue - that the stars represent figures of behavior rather than as today we are more inclined to think in terms of measuring the amount of hydrogen and the constant star-wide nuclear reaction or the distance or direction a group of stars represent for travel.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4044 on:** July 15, 2016, 06:03:45 PM »

I see Shakespeare a bit addled at the fact beauty lasts only for a short time, because the same sky that helps grow beauty takes it away..... time is inevitable, death is inevitable, there is no denying either. He wants to wage war against time to save the beauty of youth, and because he can't stop either, he recreates them through his poems.

Barb, I like the picture of the flowers you placed above this Sonnet. I am so into flowers this Summer, I just went and purchased yet more perennials today. I feel a bit like Shakespeare wanting the beauty to last forever. As one of my perennials die off, because there time has come and gone for the season, one new flower blossoms for their time of season. I keep taking pictures after pictures of each new beginning of the blossom, and when it is in full bloom and posting and sharing on my Facebook. I will then have these pictures to look back at in the winter when everything is covered in a blanket of snow. My pictures are much like Shakespeare's poems, he can recreate and recapture the youth and beauty in his poems, I can enjoy and recapture those Spring/Summer feelings once again through my pictures.

So, with all this procreation talk, is he really only trying to keep the beauty of things/people alive in his mind? I think perhaps so. Hmmmm..... makes me think as if Shakespeare wants to cheat death. This is where the comfort of everlasting life comes in for me.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4045 on:** July 15, 2016, 06:06:45 PM »

Barb, I love the Christian map!!! I see part of my church's name in the top left corner Coeli. (Regina Coeli)

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4046 on:** July 15, 2016, 11:27:15 PM »

Glad both you, Bellamaire and Joan like the photos - it is fun finding them - I never saw hanging flowers - that is new for me - from the write up they actually grow that way. Amazing.

We had so much rain this past Spring after 4 years of drought that I thought when I had more time this summer I would add some plants in the front yard - but only a week of our summer triple digit heat and already spots on the lawn are white - lost all sense of green - dry as a bone - water is so expensive but had to succumb and water for hours last night and this evening - grass spots are still white but the surrounding grass has some look of life - and now I realize there will be no adding to the garden till October - even the thyme I put in this Spring is challenged.

Between the deer and the searing sun there are not many blossoms however, the other end of the seasons in December and February there are lots of blooms with an overload the end of March and early April - just can't look for them in summer is all.

For sure Shakespeare says it perfectly when he says, "...every thing that grows Holds in perfection but a little moment," I like this Sonnet because there are several lines that satisfy - the message - as the other Sonnets, time passing and the capacity to love is tied to the physical - its OK, not as deeply moving as describing an interior love but the basis of so many love stories - and I do like finding out that 400 years ago the stars were associated with the myths we have named various star groups and that the myths, Christian or Greek were important to folks so they could better understand each other.

Two more procreation Sonnets and then another theme - Looks like the theme will change on Monday -

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4047 on:** July 16, 2016, 01:15:14 AM »

Shakespeare SonnetXVI

But wherefore do not you a mightier way
Make war upon this bloody tyrant, Time?
And fortify yourself in your decay
With means more blessed than my barren rhyme?
Now stand you on the top of happy hours;
And many maiden gardens, yet unset
With virtuous wish would bear your living flowers,
Much liker than your painted counterfeit:
So should the lines of life that life repair,
Which this (Time's pencil, or my pupil pen),
Neither in inward worth nor outward fair,
Can make you live yourself in eyes of men.
To give away yourself keeps yourself still,
And you must live, drawn by your own sweet skill

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4biAj3HqsM

bellamarie · « **Reply #4048 on:** July 16, 2016, 09:01:27 AM »

Shakespeare seems to be saying that having a child of your own, one of your own creation, is far more lasting, and beautiful than any poem/sonnet he could write. By having your own child it renews your life and lives on after you have gone.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4049 on:** July 17, 2016, 01:17:41 AM »

Bellamarie you are reminding us that magic exists. Shakespeare is telling us about flowers and time, the music of the wind and the silence of the stars and that those who love, can pass the magic on into the ages through their children. It is such a simple and extraordinary part of our life isn't it.

Of this group of Sonnets either I am tired of the message or it could be that I am just not enjoying this particular poem - For me this will not be a memorable Sonnet - One more within this series and then the theme changes.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4050 on:** July 17, 2016, 01:20:36 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet XVII

Who will believe my verse in time to come,
If it were fill'd with your most high deserts?
Though yet Heaven knows it is but as a tomb
Which hides your life and shows not half your parts.
If I could write the beauty of your eyes,
And in fresh numbers number all your graces,
The age to come would say, 'This poet lies,
Such heavenly touches ne'er touch'd earthly faces.'
So should my papers yellow'd with their age,
Be scorn'd like old men of less truth than tongue,
And your true rights be term'd a poet's rage
And stretched metre of an antique song:
But were some child of yours alive that time,
You should live twice,-- in it and in my rhyme.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pt0V7EOCoQ

PatH · « **Reply #4051 on:** July 17, 2016, 10:19:25 AM »

Shakespeare thinks more highly of poetry here than in the last sonnet. He admits that he can't adequately express his friend's beauty, and that even if he could, no one would believe that anyone could be that beautiful. But, he says if the friend had a child, then people would believe, and the poem would be a second immortality.

I too will be pleased to move on.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4052 on:** July 17, 2016, 10:39:00 AM »

Yes, PatH he seems to be saying that creating a child to add beauty in the future has more value than creating a poem for posterity to admire.

The last few Sonnets sure have been a slog haven't they - I am proud though that we are staying with it - a Sonnet a day - and now we know the first 17 have a common theme. I'm wondering if it is the repetition of the same theme that bored us or our views about procreation not being the end all to a valued life.

Mkaren557 · « **Reply #4053 on:** July 17, 2016, 03:13:00 PM »

I have read my daily sonnet and I too will be glad to move on. I have found that it helps my understanding to mark off the three quatrains and consider each by itself. I know we don't want to consider form, but I think that is part of Shakespeare's genius. He creates these beautiful poems within the strict form of the sonnet. Forgive me for dabbling in analysis. I love that eyes reveal so much to the person who looks into them. That seems to be a common image.

JoanK · « **Reply #4054 on:** July 17, 2016, 03:16:36 PM »

Was it Shakespeare who said "the eyes are the windows of the soul"?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4055 on:** July 17, 2016, 03:58:07 PM »

Oh please Karen - no road blocks at all - we just want this daily read to be comfortable so that it did not become a how-to or this-is-the-way or the-experts-say kind of discussion - please share whatever makes the read meaningful to you. We all have our way to enjoy one of these Sonnets, so lets hear them - just remember this is a relaxed discussion where we enjoy hearing your impressions of the Sonnet - from meaning, to love of words and rhyme, to structure, to what it brings up from our memory, to just the sound of it, or how it hits our other senses.

Joan it appears to be a traditional English proverb and credit is given to quite a few including; Cicero, Shakespeare, Leonardo DaVinci, and more recently, Hamilton and Emerson - the saying appears to hit the nail on the head for so many - I just read it is supposed to be included in the Bible. Personally I remember hearing it in 7th or 8th grade and shook my head at the time thinking it was a crazy idea - and after living a full life I still shake my head - either that or I have a very poor idea of what someone's eyes are really telling me.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4056 on:** July 17, 2016, 04:25:33 PM »

Oh JoanK., I love that quote, "The eyes are the windows to one's soul."

I agree wholeheartedly, I feel when I look into a person's eyes I can truly connect with them.

Barb you may be thinking of this scripture in the Bible, “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" - Matthew 6:22-23

Yes, I am a bit bored with the repetitive theme of procreation, but I did enjoy how the flowers brought so much joy to the sonnet.

Karen, I too sometimes find if I take his sonnet and break it into sections, or as you mentioned, "three quatrains" it does help me a bit. Even listening to it being read aloud sometimes gives me a clear perspective.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4057 on:** July 17, 2016, 04:28:23 PM »

Sonnet XVll

I especially like this part of the poem:

If I could write the beauty of your eyes,
And in fresh numbers number all your graces,
The age to come would say, 'This poet lies,
Such heavenly touches ne'er touch'd earthly faces.'

Just reading this today, knowing it is hundreds of years old, shows how he was able to capture the depth of a person through the beauty of their eyes and graces, gave me such an insight into Shakespeare's soul.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4058 on:** July 17, 2016, 05:08:27 PM »

Bellamarie it is a beautiful quote isn't it - he is telling us of his inadequacy in the face of attempting to describe the beauty of her eyes and her inner beauty which would be expressed through her graces.

Just lovely isn't it - make us relook at how easy it is to see fault in others without looking for the good in everyone because there really is a piece of good in the worst, most horrid, scariest since we are all children of God regardless how evil we become.

That said, during the time of Shakespeare and with his classic education the graces were usually referring to Greek mythology, the Charis or Grace. The three goddesses of charm, beauty, nature, human creativity, and fertility, known as the Charites or Graces. A wonderful combination of attributes to this day.

PatH · « **Reply #4059 on:** July 17, 2016, 11:12:51 PM »

Thanks for reminding me to pay attention to the structure, Karen. It reminds me how nicely crafted the poems are.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4060 on:** July 17, 2016, 11:35:25 PM »

Well here we go tra la - not only out of the series of Sonnets about how procreation is the core of our mirror into time but we go into one of the more famous - we have heard this Sonnet so often it will be tempting to read it through and be done - I bet a second and third read - one at least outloud - there will be phrases and words that have a deeper meaning and maybe a slant all of our own rather than the slant bequeathed to us by the hoards of past readers.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4061 on:** July 17, 2016, 11:42:06 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet XVIII

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature's changing course, untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st;
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st;
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMDj1K0gks

Leah · « **Reply #4062 on:** July 18, 2016, 10:30:36 AM »

The paradox is that the implied immortality of the poet's/poem's "eternal lines" are dependent on mortals being around to read them, thus immortalizing the beloved.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4063 on:** July 18, 2016, 11:47:40 AM »

Leah - yes, we hear this Sonnet quoted so often and the ending rebuttal never hit home till you bring it to our attention - yes and yes again.

What took several reads for me and I am so glad I did read more than once what I thought I knew like the back of my hand was the entire phrase known and quoted so often. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, followed by, And summer's lease hath all too short a date: - I wondered if in Britain, May was considered part of summer and also, rough winds in summer never fit my idea of summer. This re-read and it finally hit - they are buds, not full flowers - the darling buds are like an appetizer or prelude to a short summer - that clears up for me years and years of confusion.

Leah · « **Reply #4064 on:** July 18, 2016, 01:29:17 PM »

I gather that calendars were in flux at various periods in history. I ran across that tidbit while reading an historical novel set during Roman times. And then I found this:

May was a summer month in Shakespeare's time, because the calendar in use lagged behind the true sidereal calendar by at least a fortnight.

So, that should cement your newfound clarity, Barb!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4065 on:** July 18, 2016, 03:24:28 PM »

hahaha I love it - so it was part of summer - what do you know - of course here May is weather wise part of summer but not my vision of Britain - seems to me I was in London in May years ago and remember it was warm but never visited in March or April and so I did not have anything to compare - but what you are saying the calendar itself did not follow seasonal timing as we know it today... interesting... thanks.

JoanK · « **Reply #4066 on:** July 18, 2016, 03:38:17 PM »

LEAH: that's fascinating.

Ah, this sonnet reminds me of why we're doing this. A great poet, indeed.

I'm working over these lines:

"Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou GROW'ST;

Couldn't understand "grow'st", thinking "why is she growing?" But of course, he's talking of her as if she was a flower. (although why a flower would wander...?)

think I'm being too literal. Actually, I like the image of wandering in death's shade.

PatH · « **Reply #4067 on:** July 18, 2016, 04:25:03 PM »

Yes, this is one of the great ones.

There's a progression in sonnets 16-18. In 16, poetry is inadequate as a means if preserving beauty, compared to having children. In 17, poetry seems to be almost equal to having offspring. In 18, children aren't even mentioned, and the sonnet is the means of a sort of immortality. I wonder if this reflects a growing confidence in his powers?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4068 on:** July 18, 2016, 04:34:27 PM »

Fun Joan you found a mixed metaphor in the work of Shakespeare - the great poet and here it is, out for all to see a mixed metaphor - how much fun is that...

I bet folks in the sixteenth century really understood what it was to wander in Death's shadow with the religious wars, mercenary armies and conscription an everyday occurrence and women not having available a secure childbirth plus no protection for children against what we today call childhood diseases. When you think there was no pasteurized milk and even water could be contaminated.

Interesting Pat about his possible growing confidence - we will have to keep that in mind and ask it again after we do read the three Sonnets - I wonder why, with all the wonderful phrases this man wrote, why bits of this poem are quoted so often. There sure is something arresting about that description of buds in May - but the opening line is a beauty - and not a Spring Day or Winter day but a Summer's day - lots of imagery for a Summer's day.

Pat from what you are saying it sounds like we are in for 3 days of great Sonnets. It is about time isn't it - we did our duty with the first 17... actually mostly the poetry was well worth the read with time to dwell on each Sonnet - it was the theme that felt overbearing don't you think.

PatH · « **Reply #4069 on:** July 18, 2016, 06:44:58 PM »

No, that was the last three, ending with today's, #18, which seems very sure-footed.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4070 on:** July 18, 2016, 08:11:57 PM »

So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

Oh how interesting for Shakespeare to feel that his poem will keep her alive, how his words give life to her long after she is gone. He feels he can capture an endless summer and her beauty in his verses. I think he accomplished his goal!

This sonnet comes at the most perfect time to be reading it, considering the weather, it being summer, we are having some extreme temps, we had a thunderstorm last night, and the buds on my flowers are falling away. So very true, summer never seems to last long enough.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4071 on:** July 18, 2016, 11:42:48 PM »

Oh I see Pat - I misread thinking of the first 17 as a group did not consider that the last couple could be associated with this Sonnet 18 - need to read them as a threesome - but in the morning - full evening over a lovely dinner and a couple of glasses of wine - we had a great time just the two of us. I will read all three in the morning and see what it is that you have shared with us... promise.

Bellamarie - yes, this is mid-summer - how perfect is this timing - as you point out this Sonnet makes you realize what we write has a life of its own and will last beyond our years on this earth - we have archived the posts of so many who read and shared in a book discussion who have since passed - so yes, the simplest of us leave a legacy of our thoughts - hmm interesting when we are thinking the future - just leaving our thoughts in words extends our place on this earth so that others will have the benefit of our thoughts as special gifts.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4072 on:** July 18, 2016, 11:44:30 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet XIX

Devouring Time, blunt thou the lion's paws,
And make the earth devour her own sweet brood;
Pluck the keen teeth from the fierce tiger's jaws,
And burn the long-lived phoenix in her blood;
Make glad and sorry seasons as thou fleet'st,
And do whate'er thou wilt, swift-footed Time,
To the wide world and all her fading sweets;
But I forbid thee one most heinous crime:
O, carve not with thy hours my love's fair brow,
Nor draw no lines there with thine antique pen;
Him in thy course untainted do allow
For beauty's pattern to succeeding men.
Yet, do thy worst, old Time: despite thy wrong,
My love shall in my verse ever live young.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b51qP_ICYCg

Leah · « **Reply #4073 on:** July 19, 2016, 01:24:14 PM »

Ah, is S. finally being crystal clear about the gender of the object of his poetic affections?:

Nor draw no lines there with thine antique pen;
Him in thy course untainted do allow

It seems possible that all along he has been addressing someone who, perhaps, is his junior for whom he has great affection or fondness; someone who is also a close friend.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4074 on:** July 19, 2016, 04:28:10 PM »

I get that time is not kind, yet Shakespeare says:

Yet do thy worst, old Time; despite thy wrong,
My love shall in my verse ever live young.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4075 on:** July 19, 2016, 04:40:28 PM »

Leah looks like you found the magic word "him" and so it had to be that he has been talking to another man all this time. Now I have to read them again and think of them as if he is talking to another man. Probably as you say, young man.

Haha I had a quick reaction Bellamarie to your pointing how writing about someone as Shakespeare does the person described forever stays the same in the written piece and what I see is so funny is in my mind's eye my children are barely out of their 20s and here my grands are all well in their 20s so not only on paper but in the conscious memory of Mom's children seem as if young and never grow old.

Well now back to read the Sonnets Pat tod us about yesterday...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4076 on:** July 19, 2016, 04:51:02 PM »

aha - I see it Pat - do y'all see what Pat is seeing, how in words Shakespeare is suggesting a growing power in his use of words - "There's a progression in sonnets 16-18. In 16, poetry is inadequate as a means if preserving beauty, compared to having children. In 17, poetry seems to be almost equal to having offspring. In 18, children aren't even mentioned, and the sonnet is the means of a sort of immortality. I wonder if this reflects a growing confidence in his powers?"

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4077 on:** July 19, 2016, 05:28:05 PM »

AI do not think I ever dwelled on what many call the Ravages of Time - I have noticed over the years as people who smoked age they seem to have looser face skin and more wrinkles - I wonder what the connection is to smoking - my only thought is that anything we do to slow the oxygen in our systems shows itself when we age - so maybe it is not time that is to bewail over but just as a flower needs oxygen and in fact they even refer to writing as getting a shot of oxygen hmmm so maybe it is the lack of oxygen and not time at all... just a wandering thought...

I do like this line though - Nor draw no lines there with thine antique pen; I Like that referring to the lines on our forehead as if drawn by an 'antique' pen.

Actually I prefer instead of bemoaning about age this quote by Voltaire, "Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats."

Leah · « **Reply #4078 on:** July 19, 2016, 06:28:58 PM »

Or this one:
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we should dance.
~ Author Unknown

(And this is totally off the subject, but it made me laugh out loud after the recent immersion in disturbing media reports from around the planet - laughter helps balance things out.

From Rita Mae Brown:
If the world were a logical place, men would ride side-saddle.)

bellamarie · « **Reply #4079 on:** July 19, 2016, 06:45:22 PM »

Barb, I agree, I know my kids are all grown up and have kids of their own who are growing up everyday, but I'll be darned if I don't see them all so much younger in my mind than what they truly are.

No one can escape time, but Shakespeare seems to think he can capture it in his sonnets, and hold it's beauty and life suspended from the point he is writing these lines.

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Author Topic: Poetry Page (Read 725062 times)