Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 725107 times)

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4200 on: August 06, 2016, 01:27:55 PM »
Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets


2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.



April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.


A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.


Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1


Shakespeare Anniversary Links
Discussion Leaders: Barb
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4201 on: August 06, 2016, 01:29:29 PM »
I wonder Pat - what do you think - it almost sounds as if he is writing this to his son -

Take all my comfort of thy worth and truth.
Look, what is best, that best I wish in thee:
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4202 on: August 06, 2016, 02:14:54 PM »
Not sure whether he's writing to his son, or comparing his feelings for the beloved to a father's feelings for his son.

As a decrepit father takes delight
To see his active child do deeds of youth,
So I, made lame by fortune's dearest spite,
Take all my comfort of thy worth and truth.


It's a strength of these poems that their emotions can fit several ways.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4203 on: August 06, 2016, 04:58:28 PM »
Yes, indeed I see Shakespeare writing this sonnet for his son.  It's a bit of his legacy he sees he is leaving in his son.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4204 on: August 06, 2016, 06:44:59 PM »
Could be couldn't it Bellamarie - Knowing his one and only son died at age 11 I kinda like the idea but then Pat does show us how it could be for his friend who many see he is writing to in these early Sonnets. Either way but I do like as you say the idea the Sonnet was expressing his feelings about his own son.

These are lines that can allow us to day dream the poem is written to his son...

Whilst that this shadow doth such substance give
That I in thy abundance am sufficed


Again, one of those mysteries we will never know - those who study his work have their opinion however, all is  studied scholarship since there was no note left by Shakespeare saying to whom these Sonnets were written, for or about.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4205 on: August 06, 2016, 08:24:44 PM »
Barb, I just sometimes get a feel that the sonnets were not all written for one individual person.  Yes, I can see some that seems directed to his youthful male love, but then earlier on I saw some as though they were meant from a male to female when we were seeing a lot about procreating, and then some do seem more to an offspring.  I can't imagine someone as brilliant as Shakespeare intended all of these directed to only one person. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4206 on: August 07, 2016, 02:10:06 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XXXVIII


Stratford Upon Avon: Shakespeare's surrounded by his 2 muses.

How can my Muse want subject to invent,
While thou dost breathe, that pour'st into my verse
Thine own sweet argument, too excellent
For every vulgar paper to rehearse?
O, give thyself the thanks, if aught in me
Worthy perusal stand against thy sight;
For who's so dumb that cannot write to thee,
When thou thyself dost give invention light?
Be thou the tenth Muse, ten times more in worth
Than those old nine which rhymers invocate;
And he that calls on thee, let him bring forth
Eternal numbers to outlive long date.
   If my slight Muse do please these curious days,
   The pain be mine, but thine shall be the praise.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gHcrPbv5ME
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4207 on: August 07, 2016, 02:25:43 AM »
In Greek and Roman mythology, the nine daughters of of Wit and Charm, the daughters of Zeus (the second generation king of the gods) and Mnemosyne (goddess of memory). Each of the nine goddesses, preside over the arts and sciences. The Muses can bestow the gift of talent and insight but they can also, viciously, revoke their blessings


Calliope (epic poetry), Clio (history), Euterpe (flutes and lyric poetry), Thalia (comedy and pastoral poetry), Melpomene (tragedy), Terpsichore (dance), Erato (love poetry), Polyhymnia (sacred poetry), Urania (astronomy).

Homer invokes the Muse to tell the story of the adventures and travels of the man of many ways, Odysseus.
Homer asks the Muses to tell of how Hector set fire to the ships of the Achaeans.
In the Underworld, Agamemnon tells Achilles that all nine Muses mourned his death

Quote from Eliza Farnham, nineteenth century novelist, abolitionist, activist for prison reform -  "Each of the arts whose office is to refine, purify, adorn, embellish and grace life is under the patronage of a muse, no god being found worthy to preside over them."

A Muse is a force personified as a woman, who is the source of inspiration for a creative artist.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4208 on: August 07, 2016, 10:08:55 AM »
Shakespeare uses the muses very prettily here to compliment his beloved.  (S)he is so excellent, that merely thinking about him/her is so inspiring that even the poor, untalented poet can write about it.  So the beloved becomes a new muse, the tenth, the poet's inspiration.  Then the last two lines, the poet suffers to write the lines, and the beloved enjoys the resulting praise.

My book says "numbers" in line 10 means "verses".

This poem is back to a more traditional love poem, not as specific to the poet's own situation.  I like the way we see the different mood changes in succeeding poems, first one theme, then morphing into another.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4209 on: August 07, 2016, 10:09:52 AM »
Thanks for the list of muses, Barb.  I've always wondered what astronomy was doing there.

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4210 on: August 07, 2016, 07:54:45 PM »
Love poem for sure isn't it Pat - recognize in his statue at Stratford the muse with the lyre or whatever the musical stringed instrument as being the sign for Erato but the other I cannot figure out - it appears to me she is holding a palette and paintbrushes I wonder if they are supposed to be stylists which could make her Calliope - can you figure out what she is holding - I read somewhere that what they hold are used as symbols just as much as their name.

Remember being in love when we were only teens and that feeling that our heart was literarily turning over in our body when we saw the one who was tugging our affections... these two lines remind me of what that was like.

While thou dost breathe, that pour'st into my verse
Thine own sweet argument, too excellent
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4211 on: August 08, 2016, 01:00:01 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XXXIX


O, how thy worth with manners may I sing,
When thou art all the better part of me?
What can mine own praise to mine own self bring?
And what is't but mine own when I praise thee?
Even for this let us divided live,
And our dear love lose name of single one,
That by this separation I may give
That due to thee which thou deservest alone.
O absence, what a torment wouldst thou prove,
Were it not thy sour leisure gave sweet leave
To entertain the time with thoughts of love,
Which time and thoughts so sweetly doth deceive,
   And that thou teachest how to make one twain,
   By praising him here who doth hence remain.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 39, recited by 6 year old, Jai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj1CNDKBnDQ
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

  • Posts: 2545
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4212 on: August 08, 2016, 11:12:19 AM »
Sometimes 'twain' seems to imply two together and at other times to split apart. This muddies the meaning for me.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4213 on: August 08, 2016, 11:48:36 AM »
Sonnet XXXIX

It seems Shakespeare is unable to feel comfortable praising his love, because to do so would appear to be praising himself. He sees the two of them as one.  He wants to divide them, so he is able to give deserved praise to his love.

Isn't it so true that at times when you are a couple that people do in fact see you as one?  With my hubby and myself, so often I notice others see him and me as a reflection of each other.  And yes, maybe his kind acts give me some undeserving praise, and vice versa.  This past weekend, he and I spent hours chairing our parish festival Bingo, and since he was a letter carrier in our parish community for 30 years he became even more familiar with all the parish families.  The elderly (Ooops excuse me, I think he and I would be considered elderly now as well), anyway, the older ladies and gentlemen would come up to say hi to my hubby and they would automatically greet me with such enormous warmth and kind words, simply because of their admiration they had for my hubby when he was their mailman. 

Shakespeare nailed this one, even though the two were not married, it reminds me of scripture:

Mark 10:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 and the two will become one flesh.’[a] So they are no longer two, but one flesh.



“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4214 on: August 08, 2016, 11:58:36 AM »
What meaning where you working on Leah till the word twain tripped you up?

I know the poem is heartfelt and attempting to share this great love but I had to smile reading it - to me it should be read during every Al-anon meeting - most partners are in the mess they are in because of the very love he is describing that today we call co-dependent.

I had not seen the word twain having opposite meanings but a chuckle for me - the double meaning is too perfect - in fact that double meaning for me has the entire poem hinged on that one double meaning word - implying two together and also split apart - wow - would not have seen the value of that word till you brought it up Leah - so your confusion turned out to be for me the king pin of the sonnet.

OK what was it you were getting out of the poem and in what way was twain having opposite meanings muddling your thinking - I bet there is more to this that your conscript of thoughts will uncover.   

whoops Bellamarie you posted while I was writing - let me post this and then read your post...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4215 on: August 08, 2016, 12:09:48 PM »
Oh funny - Bellamarie I love it - here you see the positive of a couple being considered interchangeable. That idea is sure explored in those first four lines isn't it - and yes, there is the idea that a married couple become one - Shakespeare is not talking about a partner or lover with an obsessive nature but he does make the argument for a separateness doesn't he - I wonder - hmm just thought -

Yes, I wonder if the word twain with its duel meaning really is right on - because there is a benefit to a couple who become one and also, there is equally a benefit to being your own and not be swallowed up as a single unit. If we are given gifts of talent and we do not fully explore our talents we are denying the world, ourselves and our partner of what is unique to ourselves and yet, the poem is suggesting a unity that comes from sharing something similar so that we see in our partner the part of ourselves that we admire - maybe that is part of what makes a safe and good choice of a partner - as a partner there is parts of each other that is shared - I should look up the traditional symbolic meaning of two  - that really could caste a light on this poem couldn't it... Back later...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4216 on: August 08, 2016, 02:03:14 PM »
Barb-  I do believe we must never overlook our own personal identity or talents when in any relationship.  As in a marriage scripture says we become as one, but it does not dispel our own individuality.  I like how the poem shows we can see some of our best qualities through our partner.  So many times I hear one partner say to the other, "You bring out the best in me."  or they say, "I like the person I become when I am with you."  What a huge compliment to know a relationship brings out the best in a person.  Love it!!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4217 on: August 09, 2016, 01:08:12 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XL


Take all my loves, my love, yea, take them all;
What hast thou then more than thou hadst before?
No love, my love, that thou may'st true love call;
All mine was thine before thou hadst this more.
Then if for my love thou my love receivest,
I cannot blame thee for my love thou usest;
But yet be blamed, if thou thyself deceivest
By wilful taste of what thyself refusest.
I do forgive thy robbery, gentle thief,
Although thou steal thee all my poverty;
And yet, love knows, it is a greater grief
To bear love's wrong than hate's known injury.
   Lascivious grace, in whom all ill well shows,
   Kill me with spites; yet we must not be foes.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZGm60E_G7Y
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

  • Posts: 2545
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4218 on: August 09, 2016, 10:44:01 AM »
Sounds of the intense inner struggle of the poet when his 'true love,' the young (?) man, takes up with the poet's mistress (who cannot be his TRUE love). Lots of gnashing of teeth as he struggles in a back and forth way to view what has happened, express his anguish and perhaps some measure of disbelief at the recklessness of the youth in what may be self-deception, and yet feels a strong need to forgive him for the theft of the mistress. I feel as if he is close to drowning as he attempts to deal with his contradictory emotions of being betrayed and used by his friend and 'true love.'

😫 🙀 😾 ❤️

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4219 on: August 09, 2016, 02:32:38 PM »
Sonnet XXXX

I can feel the pain Shakespeare is feeling with the betrayal by his young love, yet he wants to remain friends, not foes.

I personally have never been able to understand how one is able to remain friends with someone they are so deeply, emotionally in love with romantically, once they are hurt and betrayed by this person.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4220 on: August 09, 2016, 06:18:46 PM »
I had to work at it yesterday to get the words straight in 39.  It's very clever--the play on twain--apartness and togetherness at the same time.  They're twain because they're apart physically, but  they're still together in their minds.  But even when they're together in their minds they're twain, because it's two of them in one mind.

Leah

  • Posts: 2545
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4221 on: August 09, 2016, 08:43:36 PM »
PAT! yep, that's what flummoxed me - Now that you have described it with words, the kinesthetic memory I had at first reading kicked in and I got a match! In my world I view it like People are made up of all kinds of'parts' that may or may not be in conflict or contrast with each other; yet are all part of the 'one' that We call Me. Our work is to bring them all together and hopefully recreate some unity - and if every person brings all their part into relationship to the whole, eventually we will all add up to one. Very Cool. Thank you.

I re-read it again and see now how clear that idea seems > how to make two (or 20) one:

     And that thou teachest how to make one twain.

And he knows how: The way to make the two (2 million) into one is with forgiveness.


This has implications for the journey to the more ethereal realm where all our 'Twain'-egos become ONE.

Tuesday night Stream of Consciousness 🙏

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4222 on: August 10, 2016, 12:00:12 AM »
Looks like Sonnet 39 was a poem to dig into Pat and Leah - looking at 40 after 39 it appears we are reading twain followed by at least a triad in Sonnet 40 - "All mine was thine before thou hadst this more."

Do y'all think 'love' is the one, the single, the unity, the beginning - or do you think it is 'thought'... "with thoughts of love, Which time and thoughts so sweetly doth deceive?"

With three there is multiplicity, creative power, forward movement overcoming duality - Three stands for "All" - "in whom all ill well shows" - for Christians three symbolizes the unity of Soul, Man and Church - Hope, Love and Charity - and for the Greeks there are three graces, three charities, three sirens, the three in one Moira/Fates.

Interesting how these Sonnets follow each other - from twain to three circling around one. This quote gives a few brownie points to the idea of the "one" being love, with hate being its opposite popping in as a new word to the poem and as an opposite thereby strengthening love... "And yet, love knows, it is a greater grief To bear love's wrong than hate's known injury."

In one breath as you say Leah lots of struggle but landing on a Just resignation...or as you say, forgiveness. "yet we must not be foes." Continuing the lesson as you say, "The way to make the two (2 million) into one is with forgiveness."

Bellamarie, yes how difficult to feel betrayed, as he says it stings more by "love's wrong than hate's known injury".

Another quote that has helped me in my life since I have experienced and struggled with betrayal so that resignation did not stop or soothe the pain till I found this... "Don't blame people for disappointing you, blame yourself for expecting too much from them."

Since the betrayal was more than I could fathom. I decided since I could not figure it out and had no clue how to forgive without accepting the unacceptable or, even to think, accept that the behavior came from someone loved by god, I decided to let a power greater than me, God, take care of it... I did not have to be ugly or show my pain - I realized they would never understand - and so, trust became my issue and I only shared the part of me that was not vulnerable - now if the person is young, as it appears in this poem, than that is a situation where trying out wings often means disappointing others.

Youth and trying out wings of independence is what I think is the position of the love interest in the Sonnet - and frankly, if this is a women who has rebuffed his love and knowing that a woman after marriage will be caged for her entire life this is her only time to exert any personal power - he is distraught and feels robbed but he is not devastated beyond repair - his reputation is still intact and so, I can see growth for her that may give her some empowerment for the remainder of her life and he learned to make peace with the wounds that come from desiring another, who he hoped, if not expected, would fully accept exclusively his love.

However, if this is a man, his lover, his twain, seems still a youth and he cannot stir up the anger and rage as if his rebuff came from someone who intends to inflict pain. Also, if these poems follow then we can assume, to feel as foes is to make part of himself a foe to himself... self inflicting spites - "What can mine own praise 'spites' to mine own self bring?".

Regardless man or women, growth for sure for both of them... and like all emotional growth it often comes with some pain which is the wether bell to adjusting our views.

Yes, perfect, these two Sonnets following each other have meaning - I wonder if the next sonnet fits the scenario or lesson.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4223 on: August 10, 2016, 01:26:37 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XLI



Those petty wrongs that liberty commits,
When I am sometime absent from thy heart,
Thy beauty and thy years full well befits,
For still temptation follows where thou art.
Gentle thou art and therefore to be won,
Beauteous thou art, therefore to be assailed;
And when a woman woos, what woman's son
Will sourly leave her till she have prevailed?
Ay me! but yet thou mightest my seat forbear,
And chide try beauty and thy straying youth,
Who lead thee in their riot even there
Where thou art forced to break a twofold truth,
   Hers by thy beauty tempting her to thee,
   Thine, by thy beauty being false to me. 

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp_Td-lp8p0
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4224 on: August 10, 2016, 12:01:17 PM »
Sonnet XXXX1

Where thou art forced to break a twofold truth,
   Hers by thy beauty tempting her to thee,
   Thine, by thy beauty being false to me.


Oh dear, it seems Shakespeare is pleading with his youthful male love to not tempt the women who are not able to resist is handsomeness, especially Shakespeare's mistress.  Shakespeare is pointing out that when he is not with him it is understandable that he will flirt with women, but he is telling him that he is crossing a line by tempting his very mistress, causing not only her to be unfaithful to him, but his youthful male love is also being unfaithful to him as well.  This sonnet seems to be telling us the young male is using his youth and beauty to tempt Shakespeare's mistress, and he is being very careless, and it will cause hurt to others, even though he doesn't seem to understand how his actions will hurt others feelings and relationships.

How often does flirtations seem harmless, yet can bring hurt to others.  I'm seeing Shakespeare feeling threatened by the beauty and youth of his young love. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4225 on: August 10, 2016, 01:04:58 PM »
I get the impression that the beloved didn't take any action to tempt the woman, just that his beauty itself was a temptation.  The woman was the one actively tempting, the beloved just didn't resist:

Beauteous thou art, therefore to be assailed;
And when a woman woos, what woman's son
Will sourly leave her till she have prevailed?

But the poor poet; he has to admit it's natural, but it still hurts just as much.

Somehow, I doubt that it's any consolation that this could lead to the children he was nagging about so much. ;)

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4226 on: August 10, 2016, 07:39:28 PM »
 ;D :D Pat I had to laugh at your reference to the early Sonnets urging the birth of children -

Bellamarie looks like as you say, harmless flirtation is still painful - ah, if all of our pain would be limited to harmless flirtation but as we act on deeper feelings of love so too, more painful experiences seem to assault us -

I guess that is the story of life, the more we have or the more we love or the more we are responsible for and to the more we experience a deeper attachment.

Today my attachment is limited to staying cool without it costing me a fortune in electric bills - me or my... the promise of rain this weekend is getting more and more believable so maybe...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4227 on: August 10, 2016, 09:23:47 PM »
Barb, I'm with you, I am praying for cooler temps and rain.  I'm to the point staying in my air conditioned house for comfort beats the heat.  Even my inground pool is not enticing to me now. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4228 on: August 10, 2016, 10:17:26 PM »
After one cooler day we're facing a series of days with temperatures in the 90s, heat index over 100, 90% humidity, and only down to mid 70s at night.  I go out to bring in the mail and the paper.

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4229 on: August 11, 2016, 02:54:51 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XLII



That thou hast her, it is not all my grief,
And yet it may be said I loved her dearly;
That she hath thee, is of my wailing chief,
A loss in love that touches me more nearly.
Loving offenders, thus I will excuse ye:
Thou dost love her, because thou knowst I love her;
And for my sake even so doth she abuse me,
Suffering my friend for my sake to approve her.
If I lose thee, my loss is my love's gain,
And losing her, my friend hath found that loss;
Both find each other, and I lose both twain,
And both for my sake lay on me this cross:
   But here's the joy; my friend and I are one;
   Sweet flattery! then she loves but me alone.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxK9n1xvUbQ
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4230 on: August 11, 2016, 10:09:17 AM »
He's really hurting here, isn't he?  It's interesting that you can see clearly he cares more about his man friend than his woman.

That thou hast her, it is not all my grief,
.....
That she hath thee, is of my wailing chief,
A loss in love that touches me more nearly.

He consoles himself with the notion that he and his beloved are one, so the woman really just loves him (the poet) but I doubt that helps much.

Leah

  • Posts: 2545
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4231 on: August 11, 2016, 10:24:57 AM »
His explanatory gyrations make him sound very conflicted, so much so that it brings to mind a twisted pretzel or a maze - "I am he as you are he as you are we and we are all together."

 

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4232 on: August 11, 2016, 11:03:00 AM »
I'm laughing.  You're right, and we've been getting a lot of this lately.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4233 on: August 11, 2016, 01:29:14 PM »
Sonnet XXXXII

Well, it appears his woman love, and his young male love, have found each other and he is feeling betrayed and left out. 

Leah, Great way to see it!!!  :) 

I have to admit, my husband first saw me at a dance place with my best friends.  I ignored him so he ended up asking my bff out to get closer to me.  She didn't really want to date seriously so they broke up after just a couple of dates, and he then asked me out. At first I said NO!  He persisted and with my bff's permission, I finally said yes.  Here we are just celebrating our 45th wedding anniversary.  She felt sad at first when she saw how much in love the two of us became, and she no longer wanted to be my roommate or friend.  I suppose like Shakespeare, she felt betrayed and left out, but in the end, she congratulated us and said she was happy for us.  Sidenote..... she ended up marrying my hubby's best friend and we all four enjoyed our friendship as married couples!!  This sonnet made me think of this.

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4234 on: August 11, 2016, 01:42:19 PM »
That's almost as complicated as Leah's summary.

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4235 on: August 11, 2016, 07:18:57 PM »
Where did the day go...

Leah your pretzel description reminded me of an old fashioned thick German pretzel - all twists and turns with just enough salt.  ;) Of course it had to be compared to something with salt since salt is the symbol for life, fidelity, friendship, wisdom and knowledge, piquancy and wit. For the Greeks it symbolized literary wit. As heroically sad, "And both for my sake lay on me this cross:" with all the twists and turns in language and among the three that you point out Leah, it keeps the Sonnet lighter using this wit.

Regardless the twists and wit of this poem as Pat you note, he is in a world of hurt. His friend and his love are involved with each other and he uses his wisdom to come to terms with the inevitable rather than flying off into a rage or a sulk. They say true love wants for the one loved to have the best even if someone else brings them the best.

Thou dost love her, because thou knowst I love her;
And for my sake even so doth she abuse me,
Suffering my friend for my sake to approve her.


Now that is constraint... almost verging on martyrdom with "Suffering" - wow...

Shakespeare is keeping his triad going with another slant - sure hope we do not have 17 poems describing various triads - although, this being 25 poems however, after those first 17, for me that many in a row was unexpected having never read these Sonnets through starting with Sonnet One.

Bellamarie glad you and your friend worked it out - reading your description sounded like a libretto for a Gilbert and Sullivan musical farce. They say, life's stranger than fiction.   

How well do y'all know the plays - isn't there some of this scenario, one loving a friend's girl in Mid-Summer... or is it Two Gentleman from Verona where there is a switching of lovers.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4236 on: August 12, 2016, 01:51:04 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XLIII


When most I wink, then do mine eyes best see,
For all the day they view things unrespected;
But when I sleep, in dreams they look on thee,
And darkly bright are bright in dark directed;
Then thou, whose shadow shadows doth make bright,
How would thy shadow's form form happy show
To the clear day with thy much clearer light,
When to unseeing eyes thy shade shines so?
How would, I say, mine eyes be blessed made
By looking on thee in the living day,
When in dead night thy fair imperfect shade
Through heavy sleep on sightless eyes doth stay?
   All days are nights to see till I see thee,
   And nights bright days when dreams do show thee me.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mMM-QoDCwE
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4237 on: August 12, 2016, 03:35:42 PM »
All days are nights to see till I see thee, - in one respect so romantic but the other side of the coin is the yearning - if it is said aloud the the beloved then all get out romantic but if whispered to yourself or even carried as a thought, oh my how do you get through the day...

Just listened to Yuja Wang play Rhapsody in Blue at the Salzburg Festival and you can hear above the cacophony of sound that was the raucous nature of America in the early twentieth century a plaintive yearning that it reminded me of the tone in this Sonnet. Cannot imagine living when you could not hear the sounds of Gershwin or at least Tchaikovsky and here during the late sixteenth century and early seventeenth century the best they had was the very measured music of Bach and Handel - for sound alone I am so glad I am living now.

Here is a nice link to the music that was similar to the music included in Shakespeare's plays - various short compositions have since been since used in his plays - none of the music from the original plays was ever preserved - except possibly the witches dance in Macbeth - the typical sound symbol inside a box is the link to a short piece of music sung or played that has been included in the plays described.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Music-in-Shakespeares-Plays-1369568
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4238 on: August 13, 2016, 12:07:11 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XLIV


If the dull substance of my flesh were thought,
Injurious distance should not stop my way;
For then despite of space I would be brought,
From limits far remote where thou dost stay.
No matter then although my foot did stand
Upon the farthest earth removed from thee;
For nimble thought can jump both sea and land
As soon as think the place where he would be.
But ah! thought kills me that I am not thought,
To leap large lengths of miles when thou art gone,
But that so much of earth and water wrought
I must attend time's leisure with my moan,
Receiving nought by elements so slow
But heavy tears, badges of either's woe.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ugFc4pDKA
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4239 on: August 13, 2016, 02:33:24 AM »
Yikes...me thinks Shakespeare is going to continue with his anguish and pain over his lost loves. He doesn't seem to be able to even escape his pain even in his sleep. Guess we'll have to muddle through until he changes his mood.

Barb~ Lucky for all involved, we never experienced "switching of lovers", since no one was in love with anyone, they had only dated twice, before deciding to not date anymore. It's like they both knew they were wrong for each other.  But yes, it's been a fun story to share throughout our years, with a happy ending for all.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden