Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 725129 times)

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4280 on: August 19, 2016, 05:55:40 PM »
Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets


2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.



April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.


A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.


Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1


Shakespeare Anniversary Links
Discussion Leaders: Barb

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4281 on: August 19, 2016, 06:02:27 PM »
Sonnet L

Oh my heavens!!!  The first thought that came to mind after reading this sonnet was Eeyore who is woe is me......

   

I actually feel sorry for the horse because he has to trot on with Shakespeare on his back in his depressed state.  Ugh...

PatH.,  We were posting at the same time and almost posted the exact same thought, just different words!   ;)

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4282 on: August 19, 2016, 06:04:16 PM »
To fill in some data from a few days ago: JoanK lives in Torrance, CA, which is part of what we call Los Angeles.  I live in Bethesda, MD, a suburb of Washington, DC.  I'm in the process of gradually shifting to Portland, OR, to be near my children and grandchildren.  That's where I was last week, without much chance to think about sonnets.  I missed some good stuff, too, which I'm poring over now I'm back.

Leah, I feel for you with plantar fasciitis.  I had it for some years, controlled with proper shoes.

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4283 on: August 19, 2016, 06:06:34 PM »
Bellamarie, we were posting at the same time again.  It took me a while to stop laughing at Eeyore.  That's perfect.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4284 on: August 19, 2016, 06:09:38 PM »
Thanks Pat for saving the space for the heading - plods dully on - don't you just like the sound of that - never think to use the word plod but it is a perfect word isn't it - glad you included it in your post. And dully - not duly but dully - love it - so descriptive of the dullness of plodding - glad you could come in today - hope you had a great time with family for your birthday.

Haha love it - Eeyore - YES, woe is me - love it Bellamarie

Pat thanks so much for filling us in where you and Joan live - are you finding any differences in weather between Bethesda and Portland?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4285 on: August 19, 2016, 07:37:20 PM »
Happy Belated Birthday PatH.!!  So you are moving to Portland to be near your family, that sounds wonderful.  Do you and Joan get many chances to see each other living so far away?  I have a sister and daughter in Florida and I am in Ohio, and sadly we don't get to visit as much as I would like.  I plan to go see them in the Fall if all plans work out.  Yep, posting again at the same time, great minds think alike I hear.    ;)

Maybe once Shakespeare gets to where he is traveling he will have shaken off his blues.  I am ready for a change in attitude.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4286 on: August 19, 2016, 08:34:25 PM »
Barb: Portland weather isn't quite as extreme as DC.  It only snows once or twice every other winter, and when it does, everything is paralyzed.  Summers aren't quite as hot as here, and less humid, and the cool breeze from the mountains tends to cool things off at night.  It rains a lot, but mildly, very few real downpours.  So better some ways, worse other ways, but evens out to just as good.

Bellamarie: Joan and I don't get to see each other nearly as often as we would like, but we talk on the phone  4 or 5 times a week.  I just got off the phone from talking for 1 1/2 hours.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4287 on: August 20, 2016, 03:32:28 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LI


Thus can my love excuse the slow offence
Of my dull bearer, when from thee I speed:
From where thou art why should I haste me thence?
Till I return, of posting is no need.
O, what excuse will my poor beast then find,
When swift extremity can seem but slow?
Then should I spur, though mounted on the wind;
In winged speed no motion shall I know:
Then can no horse with my desire keep pace;
Therefore Desire (of perfect'st love being made),
Shall neigh, no dull flesh, in his fiery race;
But love, for love, thus shall excuse my jade;
   Since from thee going he went wilful slow,
   Towards thee I'll run, and give him leave to go.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LKOWbMluc
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4288 on: August 20, 2016, 04:58:32 AM »
Hurray I found one - this Sonnet is a 'Persiflage' or whistle talk - meaning something written tongue in cheek - you can ID whistle talk if it combines irony, levity, and paradox, treating trifles as serious matters and serious matters as trifles which creates a light, bantering style, idle, good-natured raillery.

aha - that description of Persiflage/whistle talk, from the used copy I found on Amazon of, The Garden of Eloquence that includes portions of the first publication in 1577 by Henry Peacham which was used by Shakespeare (and Molière, 1622-1673). It is a book of rhetoric and grammar using figurative flowers and other creatures to "incarnate some figure of speech or trope." 

In the Sonnet 'paradoxon' is easy to spot - then, according to Peacham, after spotting paradoxon you look for the irony and levity - and so, rather than 'woe is me' we are reading Shakespeare having fun with this guy's misery. It is a tongue in cheek poem. We would in the 21st century say and spell paradoxon as paradox.

The Garden... includes on the pages explaining paradoxon a poem that starts -

In artlessness I seek disguise;
In ugliness my fairness lies;

...
On feebleness I build my strength,
And measure brevity by length.


And from Sheakespeare's Sonnet we have several -
 
excuse the slow offence
... when from thee I speed:


...haste me thence?
Till I return,


When swift extremity can seem but slow

In winged speed no motion shall I know:

his fiery race;... excuse my jade;

...from thee going he went wilful slow,
   Towards thee I'll run,


I'm sure in the book there is a definition for using in the last two lines - "from thee" - "Towards thee"

ahh and then we have it - after all that, the irony of ending with, "give him leave to go."
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4289 on: August 20, 2016, 12:22:50 PM »
Sonnet LI

Towards thee I'll run, and give him leave to go.


All I can see is he is actually thinking he can return to this lost love swiftly, even though the horse is slow.  What about the fact his love has turned to another????

It's kind of like the couple that breaks up and even though one knows it's over, the other starts imagining they will be getting back together.  Me thinks Shakespeare could use some in depth counseling about now. 

Barb, a paradox indeed!  He is contradicting himself.  Doesn't sound like tongue in cheek, sounds like delusional to me.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4290 on: August 20, 2016, 05:15:49 PM »
Bellamarie yes, perfect, delusional which is part of tongue and cheek - the impossible is spoken with exaggeration or extremes - the one that I saw as being the most extreme was difficult to show in a post, since the words were adjacent -  "speed"-"no motion" - which does set up the scenario that you see of this yoyo type letting go that is all in his mind because she or he is really gone... shut the door, 7 miles made it to the front gate gone...

When you look up the explanations for Shakespeare's and other play-writers comedy, in a nutshell the explanation says, comedy is usually about some tragic hero engaged in his great purpose that is foiled by outside sources, a deception or his own weakness. It is about the collision between the hero and the ethical world. 

I can see that understanding of comedy in the Seinfeld series and in Archie Bunker it was about his views on life that were at odds with current ethics and of course the dark humor of MASH - their purpose in life was to save lives while all around them are forces taking life. They, deceiving themselves that they could grab moments of joy often meant, being at odds with either social norms or army rules and regulations or just being at odds with the destruction that surrounds them.

OH Bellamaire look at this - great - this explanation uses your word delusional - fun...

The Comic Individual — He is, in one form or another, the victim of deception. He fights a shadow of his own mind, or pursues an external appearance; his end is a nullity, his plan an absurdity; he is always deceived; he really is not doing that which he seems to be doing. His object may be a reasonable one, his purpose may be a lofty one, but he is inadequate to its fulfillment; the delusion is that he believes in his own ability to accomplish what he wills. His object also may be an absurd one; he pursues it, however, with the same resolution. It may be called a foible, a folly, a frailty — still the essential characteristic is that the individual is pursuing an appearance, and thus is the victim of deception, though he may even be conscious of the absurd and delusive nature of his end.

... a madman is not a comic character. Reason must be present in the individual, though his end be absurd. A rational man acting irrationally is the incongruity which calls forth the laugh... 

In Comedy of Situation, a person is placed in circumstances over which he has little or no control, and is made to pursue absurd and nugatory objects without any direct fault of his own... he must also collide... A person who undertakes his purpose, his delusion, must struggle with an opposite purpose... conflict with the institutions of the world — as Family, State, Church; or may disregard his own ethics which are the moral elements of society — as Honesty, Truthfulness, temperate Gratification of the senses...


OH my - this is good stuff - if you have ever been curious about how to see life through the eye of a comedian there are reams of sites on the web explaining all of this - wouldn't it be neat to be able to post the humor we are thinking without having to resort to various smiley faces to prop up our sardonic eye.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4291 on: August 20, 2016, 09:20:36 PM »
Okay, now you have me laughing out loud!!!   :) :) :)

What a perfect find for this sonnet!  I don't know if he is actually traveling, or if it's all imaginary in his own mind.  I mean think about it, where is he actually going?  He is all the above in The Comic Individual, and the In Comedy of Situation.  All I can say is where ever he is going, if he is going anywhere at all, I hope he hurries up and gets there and gets beyond this depressive silliness.   :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4292 on: August 20, 2016, 09:35:29 PM »
 :) now you had me laughing - yep, where ever he is going 'not' - hadn't thought of mind travel - now that could be - all this as you say, silliness over love!!??!! Oh my - but then most teens do go through this phase - I bet there are similarities to some of his comedic plays - never have read one of his comedies - I wonder how they read - saw several as a movie but come to think of it never did see one of his comedies on stage either.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4293 on: August 21, 2016, 02:51:38 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LII


The Lady and the Unicorn entitled, "À mon seul désir"
Translation "My Only Desire"


So am I as the rich, whose blessed key
Can bring him to his sweet up-locked treasure,
The which he will not every hour survey,
For blunting the fine point of seldom pleasure.
Therefore are feasts so solemn and so rare,
Since, seldom coming, in the long year set,
Like stones of worth they thinly placed are,
Or captain jewels in the carconet.
So is the time that keeps you as my chest,
Or as the wardrobe which the robe doth hide,
To make some special instant special blest,
By new unfolding his imprison'd pride.
   Blessed are you, whose worthiness gives scope,
   Being had, to triumph, being lack'd, to hope.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s1codyLmUU
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4294 on: August 21, 2016, 01:43:26 PM »
Sonnet LII

Hmmm.....  I am really trying to understand what this is all about.  He thinks he holds the key to the treasure chest, yet does not want to open it just yet. He wants to anticipate how great it will be when he opens it, quite like a child on Christmas morning..... the wrapped gifts look so exciting, the brightness of the colors of the paper and bows just make the gift seem so much more enticing to open, yet the excitement may not last once it is opened, so you linger just a bit before tearing away the paper and bows to see what lies in the box.  The joy once opened will remain in you for only a time, and then it will dissipate, just as Christmas will be gone til the next year.  But... the gift remains as yours to keep! 

My only confusion is............. if Shakespeare sees his lost love as a treasure waiting for him to open, how can that be his to possess, when in fact he no longer is his to love?  Irony seems to be the element of this sonnet.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4295 on: August 21, 2016, 03:17:09 PM »
It is not an easy read is it Bellamarie - this is what I'm getting out of it - he sees this loved person as a locked up chest - OK that says, the person is precious therefore, locked away or not easily available - or maybe he/she has chosen to be distant and so, he sees this person as something that comes to him at certain special times because he does say, he will not every hour survey

Next, I get that there are rare solemn feasts spaced over a calendar year - we know this is during the time when feast days were celebrated as now we celebrate national holidays - and so I would imagine; Christmas - 12th night - probably the feast of St. Stephen - Candlemas Day - March 24, the start of the Year in England until the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar in 1752, which is also the feast day for the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary - Easter - Feast of St. George, patron Saint of England, in April - Pentecost or Trinity Sunday - Feast of All Souls and Feast of All Saints.   

Reading this again it sounds more like these feast days are the stones of worth or jewels - and I think he is saying their meeting is a secret or maybe his love for this person he only sees on feast days is a secret - something is a secret that he keeps locked up and hidden and because it is locked up and hidden it is even more special.

Sounds to me as if he is being a victim to his own feelings - not a memorable Sonnet is it Bellamarie... however, finding the tapestry that came to mind was a nice trip down memory lane - they hang, all six of them, in the Cluny which I think they renamed - it was the house in Paris for the Cluny Abbots which was the monastic order of St. Benedict and the house was turned into a museum holding all things Gothic with one large room devoted to these tapestries -

They were one of the holy grails to see of those of us involved in needlework - all the wildlife and flowers in the empty space around the scene was as valuable to see how the shading was done in stitches that did not curve but everything is as if a square dot and also the shapes in the design were of interest - the other 5 hangings are each devoted to one of the 5 senses and this one, the 6th is depicting desire. The photo is not easy to see but she is holding in her vail a cornucopia of jewels spilling from the chest.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4296 on: August 22, 2016, 01:41:34 AM »
The secret could represent his sacred memories that only he possesses.  I see the feast days as something special, to anticipate happening throughout the year so he can keep the treasures/memories locked up until then.  I think Shakespeare has finally come home, the end of his journey.  It seems he is dealing now with the acceptance of his life going on without his love, and is holding their memories as locked jewels in his heart, to bring out occasionally to remember.  Only he would hold the key to unlocking his memories in his heart.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4297 on: August 22, 2016, 01:56:50 AM »
Makes sense Bellamarie interesting how we box up or lock up what is precious to us - we want to protect from harm or change - I've been thinking of that concept since the other day when we had the Sonnet about a locked chest and the tendency to lock up families members - how some keep children close to home - we have safety deposit boxes and chests for our sterling place settings - of course jewelry boxes or chests - then I smiled remembering Hope Chests where as young women we embroidered pillow cases and guest towels, napkins and tablecloths which represented our hopes for our own home and even land, we fence in with a sense of ownership - and then thinking on it what is a home but a huge box containing our loved ones lives being lived that the openings can all be locked - interesting... 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4298 on: August 22, 2016, 02:02:10 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LIII


John Gibson 1790, Helen of Troy

What is your substance, whereof are you made,
That millions of strange shadows on you tend?
Since every one hath, every one, one shade,
And you, but one, can every shadow lend.
Describe Adonis, and the counterfeit
Is poorly imitated after you;
On Helen's cheek all art of beauty set,
And you in Grecian tires are painted new:
Speak of the spring and foison of the year;
The one doth shadow of your beauty show,
The other as your bounty doth appear,
And you in every blessed shape we know.
   In all external grace you have some part,
   But you like none, none you, for constant heart.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 53
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDBZ8z7CdNA
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4299 on: August 22, 2016, 11:35:15 AM »
Some of the sonnets seem less worth the trouble of teasing out the meaning than others, and 52 is that for me.  I agree with your interpretations.

The pleasure and value we see in something is enhanced by enjoying it sparingly.  The rich man opens his treasure chest only occasionally; great festivals are far apart.  The time that separates him from his love, allowing mostly absence, with only occasional meetings (if that) serves the same purpose as the chest.  He values his love even more.

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4300 on: August 22, 2016, 11:41:44 AM »
Barb, thanks for reminding us of that beautiful tapestry.  I saw it once too, and even without any needlework expertise, I wanted to sit and stare at it for a long time--so rich in detail and beautiful in design.  Even spotting all the little animals takes quite a while.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4301 on: August 22, 2016, 02:04:17 PM »
Sonnet LIII

Shakespeare like anyone else in love, is seeing his love more beautiful than anything or anyone of great beauty, be it art, person, season etc.

PatH., I agree, some of these sonnets are a bit contrite, no need for over thinking them.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4302 on: August 22, 2016, 02:15:44 PM »
Ha! Suddenly the beloved has constancy!!??
Is the poet getting resorting to flattering the beloved and just hoping it will stick?

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4303 on: August 22, 2016, 02:46:28 PM »
Or trying to reassure himself?

This one is a nice graceful compliment, though.  Most people have only one shadow, but you, my love, have many.  Adonis is a pale shadow of you.  Helen of Troy is a pale shadow of you.  Everything beautiful in the world is just a shadow of your qualities.  But you're like no one else, and no one else is like you for constancy.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4304 on: August 22, 2016, 02:47:50 PM »
Leah that totally confused me.  He has lost his love, yet he says his love has constant heart.  More delusions, or as you suggested, flattery will get you somewhere?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4305 on: August 22, 2016, 03:09:31 PM »
I thought I might be the confused one, but to my mind this sonnet comes on the heels of a few previous ones where the poet was bewailing the opposite trait.

As for sonnets, I read this somewhere recently:
"For it is the tradition of sonneteering that all cruelties by the beloved must be forgiven by the lover."

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4306 on: August 22, 2016, 03:25:14 PM »
Very different today compared to the recent Sonnets as you too agree Pat, yesterdays Sonnet 52 had little -  ;) almost like some days - not even a day of resting after a wonderful day, just a blah day :D so yesterday we had a blah Sonnet. Oh fun and games... Yes, seeing those tapestries was one of those memorable experiences.

Did you go to the Goblins to see them making Tapestries? My French is not that good and so I was not able to get the full understanding since the tour was all in French but I did luck out with a woman in our small group who if I asked she translated. However, I did not want to seem a pest plus the tour guide seemed to be the only one talking. I bet they have lots of refugees now doing the work since they come from the part of the world where tapestry weaving is part of life for many. 

What blew me away was how they follow the design - nothing on the warp that is strung on upright looms and that all these thousands of knots are tied, the cartoon is on a small paper on the wall behind them. Dangling in front hanging from one of the loom beams is a small, and I mean small, maybe 5 inches by 7 inch mirror, they separate the warp threads to look in the mirror which reflects the cartoon and here these minute areas of the tapestry are knotted to the design with this primitive way of following the design - amazing.

Brought home the many stories we learn about how those sumptuous lace collars were made - Cromwell and the puritans were really saving the eye sight of thousands of girls with their plane dress - Candle light was all and it was not till Tudor times that glass windows were imported from Vienna so that bottle glass was the window material or a waxed parchment was stretched over the opening therefore, most houses other than the buildings of royalty were inadequately lit by daylight through a window. If you are into paintings it is why you see so many woman stitching while sitting outside their cottage - it was for the light.

Well the making of lace was a big industry without any industrial space - cottages were commandeered by those manufacturing and selling lace and young girls starting at age 10, till their fingers became too large for quick work at about the age of 20, were on straight chairs encircling the room. As many as 20 or so girls and in the center of the room was one candle on a table with a drinking glass turned upside down next to the candle. The candle light was fractured into these pinpoint dots of light and each girl placed her chair so she could work using one of those pinpoint dots of light to light her work. Some lace is made using a cushion with lots of bobbins and just as much lace is made by pulling threads from a very fine (36 to 64 threads per inch) piece of woven linen and then the remaining threads are tied together in various patterns using a needle and thread. No magnifying glass to help. Result, most lace-makers soon had severe eye problems, many becoming blind in their early twenties.

Well onward to our Sonnet - looks like more discussion while I was writing this so let me start a new post...       
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4307 on: August 22, 2016, 05:07:55 PM »
Learning so many of the stories about the life and work of the average person - circumstances that most of us would never imagine, brought home to me this Sonnet had to be written about a woman of means which during the seventeenth century would be limited to the upper class or royalty having the advantages that would allow a woman to appear beautiful and to delay her marriage till her late teens or even her early twenties -

Here are examples of the upper class women and the average woman.

 

Taking this Sonnet as a stand alone poem - not following the story we see in proceeding 'woe is me', 'I cannot get her to love me' Sonnets - what he says, yes, is flattering but then can you imagine instead of one of these play acting tones of the many on Youtube who quote this poem but rather, said as a man in love spilling his admiration for her beauty as he holds her hands or kneeling before her - it is really quite a moving bit of admiration - to be compared to Helen and Springtime and Adonis as less than - whow - and as Leah you noticed the words constant heart meaning steadfast affection - again, wow - can you just feel what that must be like to have someone say that to you, But you like none, none you, for constant heart. - could be manipulative flattery or as Pat suggests, he is reassuring himself - my romantic heart prefers that he is complementing her - we can all dream can't we... ::) 

Interesting quote Leah - "For it is the tradition of sonneteering that all cruelties by the beloved must be forgiven by the lover." Maybe that is part of the magic of Shakespeare's Sonnets - each Sonnet about love expresses the gamete from minimizing the cruelty felt, to accepting what he sees as cruelty and bemoaning how he feels - always turning the rejection on himself and continuing to elevate this person loved, regardless how he feels and as we read it, with our twenty-first century eyes, we think he is often expecting too much. Or, is that what he would have us believe, his misery? - only by reading a book studied during the seventeenth century of rhetoric, logic, and grammar was there direction that he was making fun at his own expense, using tongue and cheek for his message.   

Maybe this is the poem of forgiveness that makes up for all the 'woe is me' Sonnets - but as a stand alone it sure marks a jaw dropping ability to speak in adoration to this woman - Didn't y'all get a kick out of every one, one shade, followed by, And you, but one, can every shadow lend. - sounds like there were no women around whose skin was other than the one shade  ;) obviously not multi-cultural.

Now Bellamarie I can go there where he is seeing his lover "more beautiful than anything or anyone of great beauty, be it art, person, season" Had not thought but yes, he is comparing her to art and a season as well as the natural shadows that show on her face.  He really includes it all doesn't he... he is making her into almost an alter of adoration - a museum is seldom filled with candles and flowers but a church alter where there is art and seasonal flowers and the natural shadows of light through magnificent windows - hmm for comparisons that would work.

Well as a continuation of a theme there is the forgiveness of cruelty  - then the discussion if the cruelty was real or imagined since he was spurned or at least his expectations were spurned or is this a stand alone Sonnet that is showing an admiration for the beauty of this beloved person. I'm imagining the next few Sonnets will clear that up for us - Now we have a task that who knew would become a task - don't you just love it with us having our various viewpoints - 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4308 on: August 23, 2016, 01:20:29 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LIV


O how much more doth beauty beauteous seem,
By that sweet ornament which truth doth give!
The rose looks fair, but fairer we it deem
For that sweet odour which doth in it live.
The canker-blooms have full as deep a dye
As the perfumed tincture of the roses,
Hang on such thorns and play as wantonly
When summer's breath their masked buds discloses:
But, for their virtue only is their show,
They live unwoo'd and unrespected fade,
Die to themselves. Sweet roses do not so;
Of their sweet deaths are sweetest odours made:
   And so of you, beauteous and lovely youth,
   When that shall fade, my verse distills your truth.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJhqXntTB1U

Shakespeare Heptet Sonnet 54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOK0PY84Gu4
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4309 on: August 23, 2016, 10:58:04 AM »
And so of you, beauteous and lovely youth
When that shall fade, my verse distills your truth.


His choice of the word 'youth' seems to my mind a reference to his male beloved.
Not that it is essential to appreciating the sentiment: that the poet's 'distills' the beauty of his beloved's 'truth' or admired essence (?) into verse even when that essential beauty has faded just as the faded rose petals are distilled into a perfume that memorializes the original flowers.
I really like that last line.

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4310 on: August 23, 2016, 03:07:52 PM »
Yes, I like it too.  Such a graceful, lovely poem.

Back to the previous theme that poetry keeps the beloved alive even when old and faded, or gone.  Of course it's true in this case.  We can't put a name to the beloved (scholars argue over different possibilities) but he's been remembered for centuries now, with more to come.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4311 on: August 23, 2016, 05:08:40 PM »
Sonnet LIV

So Shakespeare is going to preserve the youth's beauty after he is gone, much like the beautiful rose is preserved into a sweet fragrance once it dies off.

Interesting how he sees this:

The canker-blooms have full as deep a dye
As the perfumed tincture of the roses,
Hang on such thorns and play as wantonly
When summer's breath their masked buds discloses:
But, for their virtue only is their show,
They live unwoo'd and unrespected fade,
Die to themselves. Sweet roses do not so;


Since I wondered what he meant by canker-bloom, I decided to look for a picture of one. It is nothing like the rose, it does not have the shape of a rose nor the deep dye as a rose. 



By accident I happened to click a link and found this, stating it's possible Shakespeare was color blind.
I found this interesting https://www.jstor.org/stable/519062?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Any way the poem seems to say the wildflowers (other people) are inferior to the rose (his young love), which he will preserve through this poem.

And so of you, beauteous and lovely youth,
   When that shall fade, my verse distills your truth.


Leah, I agree with you, when he refers to his young love, or youthful love, I sense he is speaking of his male youth.  He is more direct if and when he addresses a woman, at least from my point of view.
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JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4312 on: August 23, 2016, 06:29:49 PM »
I like this sonnet too (sorry I've been AWOL for a while).

He says "O how much more doth beauty beauteous seem,
By that sweet ornament which truth doth give!"

So "truth" is the equivalent of the smell of the rose? By truth, does he mean his love is true?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4313 on: August 23, 2016, 10:13:38 PM »
This Sonnet was a lovely change wasn't it - you too Bellamarie looking up canker-bloom - one site seemed to lead to another - I thought at first they were the wild roses we used to see along the roads and wire on the other side of ditches but evidently not - they are a Dog Rose - rosa canina - and they do not have the color or the scent of the roses that are dried for potpourri or made into perfume. From what I read, the dog rose is a popular rose in Europe - and the hips on a dog rose have been used for many cures and is still used to make a health tea - the photo you found is a good one for a white dog rose - they also do come in a pinkish color.

Leah that last line as Pat also comments, is especially lovely isn't it - could be a male youth - I tried it and it seems to work either way - the idea that this Sonnet will remain as acknowledgement of his youthful beauty sure did turn out to be a truth. Glad you shared how the last line as one of your favorites, you bring needed attention to the line since the poem contains several great mind picture lines.   

So glad you popped in Joan, you always add to our enjoyment of these Sonnets. Now you have me questioning truth - need to re-read yet again and share how I see it... what thought about truth does the most for you, the idea of the scent or his feelings of love?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4314 on: August 23, 2016, 10:50:01 PM »
"beauty beauteous seem"  OK that could be just beauty. not necessarily a particular beauty as in a person.

What sweet ornament is he talking about - whatever the "ornament", he says, truth tells us the ornament is sweet or maybe the poem is saying the ornament exists.

The rose in not only fair but fairer yet is the sweet odour which it exudes.

Now we know the canker-bloom is a dog rose that is pale in color and when they die they do not retain their color but show the typical brown of many flowers that die on the vine and dog roses are not used to make potpourri or perfume since they have very little scent - play as wantonly suggests to me they are grow profusely and that fits - evidently they are all over Europe in every kind of soil imaginable from seaside sand dunes to mountains -
summer's breath suggests they bloom in summer and with their prolific thorns they redeem themselves because of their show of flowers.

Since they are a wild flower that grows profusely they are not as desired and admired as a 'sweet rose' - they die hmm dye and die - I doubt that was by accident - these wild flowers die to themselves suggests to me they die on the vine rather than be collected for color or scent.

Comparably a sweet rose after death maintain their sweet scent - I know he says odour but that word does not to me bring up a pleasant mind picture - odour is rotting fish, bad breath, out houses and low tide. So scent it is...

OK it seems to me he is saying that the beauty similar to the scent of the sweet rose that do not die without being wooed or fade into obscurity or alone in death - and when this beauty similar to his description of the sweet rose fades, this verse, his poem will bring back the essence of the beauty of this lovely youth.

It is 'your' truth - that suggests to me the truth of the beauty of the lovely youth  - therefore, for me I do not see this Sonnet as talking about love as much as, creating a word photograph describing the beauty of this youth comparing the youth to the sweet rose in comparison to the dog rose.

Ah I get it now - the sweet ornament is the youth in all its beauty.  I say 'it' because I am still not clear reading this if the youth is male or female.

Neither right or wrong just what I get out of the poem as I read it.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4315 on: August 24, 2016, 01:37:10 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LV


Not marble, nor the gilded monuments
Of princes, shall outlive this powerful rhyme;
But you shall shine more bright in these contents
Than unswept stone, besmear'd with sluttish time.
When wasteful war shall statues overturn,
And broils root out the work of masonry,
Nor Mars his sword nor war's quick fire shall burn
The living record of your memory.
'Gainst death and all-oblivious enmity
Shall you pace forth; your praise shall still find room
Even in the eyes of all posterity
That wear this world out to the ending doom.
So, till the judgment that yourself arise,
You live in this, and dwell in lovers' eyes.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FehmnV_78bk
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4316 on: August 24, 2016, 08:12:23 AM »
Sonnet. LV

Doesn't get any easy than knowing Shakespeare is saying his love for him/her will outlast the test of time.
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__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4317 on: August 24, 2016, 11:39:06 AM »
Yes, this one is pretty straightforward.  And the poem will outlast both of them, and through it the beloved and their love will be admired until Judgement Day.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4318 on: August 24, 2016, 12:41:05 PM »
Well he sure hits the points that we consider timeless doesn't he Bellamarie and yes, till Judgment Day Pat - although I had a difficult time realizing that is what he was saying with his, "till the judgment that yourself arise". 

It did not occur it meant Judgment Day and I was thinking it was till she or he judged, so that it was her or his judgment that arose - should have seen it with the preceding line talking about the ending doom. Glad you posted or it would have gone over my head - and of course we are talking seventeenth century when the end of the universe was a given with God coming to judge us all.

Love the use of "sluttish time" - it so fits and I cannot remember hearing or reading time described as sluttish by any other author... that one will stick with me for awhile. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4319 on: August 25, 2016, 12:54:11 AM »
Thought this was quite lovely and a nice background to reading the day's Sonnet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DEHiA6H6zk
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe