Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 725198 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4440 on: September 13, 2016, 03:49:38 AM »
Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets


2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.



April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.


A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.


Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1


Shakespeare Anniversary Links
Discussion Leaders: Barb
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4441 on: September 13, 2016, 04:06:59 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXXV



So are you to my thoughts as food to life,
Or as sweet-season'd showers are to the ground;
And for the peace of you I hold such strife
As 'twixt a miser and his wealth is found;
Now proud as an enjoyer and anon
Doubting the filching age will steal his treasure,
Now counting best to be with you alone,
Then better'd that the world may see my pleasure;
Sometime all full with feasting on your sight
And by and by clean starved for a look;
Possessing or pursuing no delight,
Save what is had or must from you be took.
Thus do I pine and surfeit day by day,
Or gluttoning on all, or all away. 

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 75
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTKCMCZFsQI
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4442 on: September 13, 2016, 02:15:08 PM »
Poor Anguished Fellow cannot find the Middle Way out of All or Nothing.
Reminds me of a song lyric: do I stay or do I go?
Do I starve or binge? - Do I dare show you off, for fear of losing you to another?

This emotional SeeSaw will have him back in that dark cloud in no time.
Must not have hear of the notion that 'if you love someone let them go; if they don't return it was never meant to be; if they return, love them forever.'

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4443 on: September 13, 2016, 03:54:13 PM »
Yes, he's full of simultaneous contradictory emotions, prettily expressed.

for the peace of you I hold such strife
wanting to be alone with his love, but wanting to show off the love to the world
feasting on the love, then starved for a look, etc

I couldn't make much of the last line:

Or gluttoning on all, or all away.

but my book's note helped.  The first or means either:

either gluttoning on all, or, you being away, having no pleasure.


bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4444 on: September 13, 2016, 05:26:44 PM »
Oh Leah you nailed this one dead on, with the song, Should I stay or should I go? 

Should I share my love, or keep him all to myself?

I'm seriously wondering how he survived his self inflicted torture writing these sonnets.  NOT to begrudge him of his enormous talent in writing, but, yes, you knew there was a but coming, this poor soul must have lived in so much pain mourning the loss of his love, and spending so much time in solitude writing about his feelings, how could he not have contemplated suicide?  I do fear the depression may settle in yet again, as well.  Not to say it has ever left, he just goes from dark to light.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4445 on: September 13, 2016, 06:44:30 PM »
Hmm this one disturbs me - I know how easy it is to attribute his sense of ownership to being all in his head - and I also know his thinking was typical for hundreds of years till just more recently - but it sure reminds me of the place for a woman that was the needle to thread before the 1970s when my youth gave me appeal - we all made our choices in that landscape and this is such the reminder of how it was... when a guy could think 
And for the peace of you I hold such strife
As 'twixt a miser and his wealth is found;

I am just having a difficult time being generous enough to even care if he is in the depths of depression - sorry - I know I am taking this too much to heart - but there it is...

The idea that a lover, that yes, I assume to be a woman is 'his' wealth. Pain... not even anger - just pain... followed by "will steal his treasure" and then not only 'his' treasure but, oh dear 'his' pleasure - "see my pleasure" taking it out of the realm of the personal this sure justifies the role model for women as being the Genie in the bottle as Barbara Eden in I Dream of Jeanne.

His relationship with this beautiful creature described only for her looks is as either the possessor or the pursuer and speaking of gluttony - whew... no wonder he pines - and beyond sad is that evidently this same concept of women is alive and well - Read this rather long article about a 20 years study and the number one reason that was found among men and boys caught for rape and interviewed for the study was that a women turned him down for anything as simple as a date and women should understand the pain that causes of being turned down after asking and therefore, a woman needs to be punished.

This revelation floored me - both the entitlement aspect and that there was something so all encompassing for a guy to ask - there is another whole level of meaning for many guys to ask - I would say someone pretty but in some cases it is not that the woman is especially pretty - it is something within the man that this poem highlights. Thinking on it, I see many a young girl still showing signs of possession - and certainly a ring on a finger is a sign of possession - and so now I question if we are fooling ourselves and we all look for possession as part of a relationship. Even one as inane as a relationship formed with loyalty towards a school or football team.

We certainly say things like My House and My Garden and My Children and I have heard some refer to their husbands with My Wade or George or whomever. hmm maybe we are looking at the concept of male ownership of a female from the wrong perspective; that we integrate the notion of possession in all of our relationships.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4446 on: September 13, 2016, 09:46:14 PM »
"My" can be possessive as well as beneficial to our growth if it is used by an individual to express how one feels/experiences alignment with "the other"; and also as an acknowledgement of the thee/thou relationships we recognize as important to our personal growth toward unity with the whole of humanity.

Whew!🙏

My Thanks to Shakespeare's sonnets AND  "Our Gang of Four."!💜

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4447 on: September 13, 2016, 10:01:31 PM »
Barb, I agree with your anger toward that type of male behavior, but that's not what I'm seeing in this poem.  For one thing, I'm pretty sure it's still the nameless young man being addressed, and for another, I get the distinct impression that it's the unknown beloved who is calling the shots--in no way being controlled.

But that's one of the virtues of these sonnets.  The wording lets us read all kinds of things into them, and no one can say who's really right.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4448 on: September 13, 2016, 10:31:28 PM »
OK Leah this has me by the tail as they say - because 'possession' highlights ownership and saying the possessive word 'My' is "beneficial to our growth" is that justifying the male concept of ownership that when you question to get to the nub, it is essentially about birth and the power structure over sperm versus ovary. 

If as Einstein's law suggests that movement is more valuable then non-movement or receiving - the justification the church now uses for their stance on patriarchy and the right of the sperm over the right of an ovary - than keeping true to the thought equation would justify a guy acting, as some do when their boy girl requests are denied by a girl and further, it would justify this poem suggesting that beneficial to his growth is the poets belief that he can 'take' by possessing or pursuing.
Possessing or pursuing no delight,
Save what is had or must from you be took.


Maybe there is another side of possessing that I am not seeing other than ownership - and yes, I can see the value of ownership over 'things' that require our care - but I am struggling to see ownership over 'people', even infants. Is there a possessing without ownership? Does caring require or morph into a sense of possessing or ownership? Are individual rights and boundaries considered equal if not trump possession within a possessive relationship?

OK need to do some research here - hope all y'all can share some further views... sheesh Leah as you say, who would have guessed Shakespeare's poem could bring all this into question.

Pat you posted as I was writing - and yes, I see the unknown beloved calling the shots but I also see the poet believing he should be pursuing or possessing and be in control - since he is not, he is 'pineing' hmm how do you write that without it coming up as pining or is pining really pinning - hmm OK another tangent - ;)  ::)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4449 on: September 13, 2016, 10:42:15 PM »
Maybe we have time for one or two tangents before falling asleep?  ;)  Though I'm only good for a little while.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4450 on: September 13, 2016, 10:47:14 PM »
 :) :D ;D - but doesn't everyone ponder when they read - oh my the tangents I can get myself into it is a wonder I have a problem getting to bed - there are too many issues to better understand...  How can we ever die with so many questions to ponder  ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4451 on: September 14, 2016, 12:51:26 AM »
PatH., I am with you, I see Shakespeare still addressing the as you put it "nameless young man." He is obsessed with this young male love whom we have been given the impression has either betrayed Shakespeare with his mistress, or not returned or broken off their relationship.  I'm beginning to see Shakespeare a bit unstable, and may be inventing this over the top love affair.  These sonnets going on and on and on, is not and could not have been healthy for anyone back in the 1800s or modern day twenty-first century. 

Barb, I don't see the same perspective where you question ownership.  If you step back, I think you may see Shakespeare is writing out of fantasy hoping to make it a reality, and wanting this young male to see these sonnets after he is gone.  Gosh, what makes him even think it would matter one way or another to the young man?  If anything I see him secluded, depressed, unstable and over imaging the importance of the relationship, assuming there was one, and holding on to it through these sonnets.  Who in their right mind would spend this much time writing these personal intimate lines hoping for this person to see them and it make a difference especially after he is dead and gone?  As I understand it they were not meant to be published or publicly viewed. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4452 on: September 14, 2016, 03:32:12 AM »
Bellamarie:
Quote
Who in their right mind would spend this much time writing these personal intimate lines hoping for this person to see them and it make a difference especially after he is dead and gone? As I understand it they were not meant to be published or publicly viewed.

That's about right.  Genteel people were expected to be able to write poetry, and wrote verses for their friends rather casually.  The good ones were often passed around a lot, and might eventually be published by someone.  These were collected and published by someone else, not Shakespeare.

Shakespeare wasn't a gentleman, but writers did this sort of thing too.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4453 on: September 14, 2016, 04:21:00 AM »
I cannot believe - whatever I did I lost an entire post and the word page where I collected the information - It is too late now but I will get this together again because it was an eye opener -

In a nutshell I started by researching the meaning for the seventeenth century word possessive - wow - the information starts explaining the Tudor period is a time of a huge land movement that involves dividing up the land held in common since the Magna Carta, into individual land holdings - I know - what has that got to do with possessiveness as describing a man's attitude toward a woman. Well..... just go with it...

This legal process of land consolidation and division was called the Enclosure Movement. This off-beat bit of history came up immediately and first in the research of seventeenth century definition of possessive which so confused me that I kept renewing my search. 

Then next is the whole story of how Calvinistic views are included in the Church of England that included honorable individualism prompted by the Enclosure Movement establishing the concept of the individual not beholden to community or obligation but, to self - It was the Calvinistic doctrine of honor that became the cornerstone of individualism and took possessiveness out of the market place into a resurrection of the Code of Chivalry, including, satisfying an intense sense of personal honor that had the element of public satisfaction (dueling). The 12 point Code for men was a man's essential character. One point in the code was about his devotion to a woman. A man was supposed to be compassionate, loyal, and ennobled by the pure love of a woman.

Maybe it is just as well the post was lost - that was the short version - bottom line a man was not honorable or ennobled without the pure love of a woman and so, of course he had to possess or pursue - his selfhood, his very honor was at stake.

Taking possession out of the market place mentality of ownership, the idea of possession I see as closer to seeking or pursuing along the lines of today when folks seek to possess the love of a favored saint or their god - Not that a woman was the emulation of a saint or god but rather, it is the best way I can describe the difference in the meaning of possession during this time of Calvinistic Code of Chivalry that all society embraced. And yes, like it or not - the rules of war are part of the Code of Chivalry so that all the horror was carried out as honor and duty to the king or queen.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4454 on: September 14, 2016, 05:06:19 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXXVI



Why is my verse so barren of new pride?
So far from variation or quick change?
Why with the time do I not glance aside
To new-found methods and to compounds strange?
Why write I still all one, ever the same,
And keep invention in a noted weed,
That every word doth almost tell my name,
Showing their birth and where they did proceed?
O, know, sweet love, I always write of you,
And you and love are still my argument;
So all my best is dressing old words new,
Spending again what is already spent:
   For as the sun is daily new and old,
   So is my love still telling what is told.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 76
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ5SvAujNT0
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4455 on: September 14, 2016, 10:20:27 AM »
Sonnet LXXVI

O, know, sweet love, I always write of you,

So all my best is dressing old words new,
Spending again what is already spent:


I think he realizes he is in a rut.... he sees his writing is continuously in the same style and subject, his love for this young male.  He sees he is saying the same thing over and over and over again, only using different words and descriptives to avow his love.  Can we hope for a change now that he realizes what he is doing?  Nahhhhh.... I fear not. 

Barb, my best advice to you is to not get into over analyzing as we suggested in the beginning.  You, like Shakespeare, may find yourself in a loop you can't get out of.  :)  :) 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4456 on: September 14, 2016, 10:47:11 AM »
SONNET 75

...justification the church now uses for their stance on patriarchy and the right of the sperm over the right of an ovary

WOW, Barb - that interpretation TOTALLY turns the tables on the usual explanations I have heard to justify the "sanctity" of life. Very enlightening to me.

When I wrote about this last night, I was exploring an interpretation of "my" from a more heart-centered approach to tip the balance and see how it might differ from an ego-centered possessiveness of "my" which feels physical/body-centered to me. It is just where my thoughts went and how it affected me.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4457 on: September 14, 2016, 11:41:30 AM »
Sonnet 76

I gather from other sources that Shakespeare's sonnets made frequent use of puns, numbers thought to be significant, and medical and religious references, among other things. No doubt there is much more that could be mined (no pun intended) from them and it would take the time and attention of many Shakespearean scholars to exhaust the mine or drain the well of his cleverness.

But alas!...I can do no more than continue to venture forth with Friends Unseen, pursuing the Poet's Meanderings through his Realm of Unrequited Love! (I think this venture is affecting me in ways I could not have foreseen. 👀)

BTW, I am listening to a book by Louis Bayard titled "School of Night." Intriguing historical novel, "intellectual thriller" that floats b&f between present day and the 16th century. Really enjoying it.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4458 on: September 14, 2016, 01:59:02 PM »
Leah yes I can see now the different views but for me the ego viewpoint hit and took over all my thinking.

At the risk of over analyzing Bellamarie where I am coming from when I react to some of these sonnets ;) 

As to the church - there are within the church many theologies - amazing also is the politics least talked about in secular media and least understood in parish churches owned and operated by the local Diocese.

The local Diocese are manned by priests on a political trajectory. ITheir education in church history and theology is weak so that before Vatican II got going there was a year of education to get the Cardinals up to snuff. A pyramid type of understanding of issues from the Bishop down is practiced in most parishes. The exception are those run by order priests not on a trajectory to Rome. The big issues are fought out between the members of the Curia versus the more progressive Cardinals or even the Pope.

A better picture of the variety within the church is found in the weekly Catholic Reporter. The issue of Birth Control has been a political football. Back, just before Vatican II a Papal Birth Control Commission was established that included 4 dozen men, mostly Cardinals and Bishops plus, 4 women that morphed into 6, two included because of their commission member husbands - at the time, the early 60s, including women was an extraordinary happening - upon meeting for a couple of years a large majority within the Commission determined a married couple can decide the number of children they are to have by using the pill.

Various reasons focused on the health and welfare of the children, that love is uniquely expressed and perfected through the marital act, the dignity of life, the health and welfare of the mother, the right over body, the economic welfare of the community and the increased population to the earth. By a ratio of 4-1 approved was the latest of several drafts on marriage and family that supported the use of birth control. Of the six clergy who disagreed, four were members of the curia. One especially was particularly vocal and particularly apt at the politics between, by then Pope Paul VI and the more conservative members of the Curia as well as, the more conservative Bishops and Cardinals. 

The work of the Commission was the 'Summary Document on the Morality of Birth Control' to be discussed on the floor of Vatican II along with proofs from natural law (which is explained scientifically movement and non-movement) in consideration to change the teaching - Again, lots of politicking that is well explained by Father John W. O'Malley in his book, What Happened at Vatican II - The issue was sidestepped because the agenda was too long. Into the 2nd year Pope Paul VI decided to eliminate more of the work so that Vatican II would decide on 8 documents from a field of 16 that was down from well over 20. The cost of travel, absence from their duties at home, housing members of Vatican II in Rome became too expensive and the conclave was limited to 5 years of work.

Other issues eliminated from floor discussion that Pope Paul VI said, he did not want sex and birth in open floor discussion, included the 'Commission on Responsible Priesthood' as well as, the thorny issue of re-organizing the Curia that has operated as it was adopted directly from the Roman governing body.

Bottom line, using lots of supportive words to straddle the divide the decision was left, with the support of education each couple was to make their decision about the number of births - Since the Curia supported the historical viewpoint and the diocesan priest is within the system that includes possible promotion to a coveted position in Rome along with, an increasing drum beat added when Pope Paul VI wrote Humanae Vitae, education became the old official line of the church with the exception of those parishes included in the Alpine group led by the Archbishop of Cologne.

Finding the books and online web sites that explains the issues and what happened became increasingly difficult during the reign of Pope Benedict - only used books can be found except for O'Malley's What Happened at Vatican II. Others no longer in print by order of Rome are: The Lively Debate Response to Humanae Vitae by Father Wm. Shannon; Turning Point the Inside Story of the Papal Birth Control commission by Robert McClory, board member of Call to Action; Recently these two books published touch on the subject; Justice in the Church Gender and Participation by Benedict M. Ashley O.P.; Confronting Power and Sex in the Catholic Church by Bishop Geoffrey Robinson that is more about sexual abuse by priests however, touches on priests marrying and controlling birth. 

;) I know, far more than you needed to know - to me the ankle bone is connected to the leg bone etc. And all of this comes rushing at me when I read which always presents a question.

Today's Sonnet - I see it as a question of excellence. I like that phrase - dressing old word new Also like the line For as the sun is daily new and old, - I really like that thought - daily new and old - nice...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4459 on: September 14, 2016, 02:31:06 PM »
So he's hoping his sonnets are both new and old, and sweetening it by saying that his continuing message is the most important thing there is to talk about.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4460 on: September 14, 2016, 03:39:54 PM »
Pat this Sonnet is closer isn't it to the concept of these being Love poems that we hear as the common definition of his Sonnets - I was surprised at the number of poems we've read that were decidedly not love poems - this one is sweet referring to his writing as lacking newness which I can almost see is a metaphor for himself being no longer young and new. Nicely done...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4461 on: September 15, 2016, 12:53:16 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXXVII

 

Thy glass will show thee how thy beauties wear,
Thy dial how thy precious minutes waste;
The vacant leaves thy mind's imprint will bear,
And of this book this learning mayst thou taste.
The wrinkles which thy glass will truly show
Of mouthed graves will give thee memory;
Thou by thy dial's shady stealth mayst know
Time's thievish progress to eternity.
Look, what thy memory can not contain
Commit to these waste blanks, and thou shalt find
Those children nursed, deliver'd from thy brain,
To take a new acquaintance of thy mind.
   These offices, so oft as thou wilt look,
   Shall profit thee and much enrich thy book.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 77
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQP8tzBtl74
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4462 on: September 15, 2016, 12:31:03 PM »
Sonnet LXXVII

Look, what thy memory can not contain
Commit to these waste blanks, and thou shalt find
Those children nursed, deliver'd from thy brain,
To take a new acquaintance of thy mind.
   These offices, so oft as thou wilt look,
   Shall profit thee and much enrich thy book.


I love every line in this sonnet.  Shakespeare at his finest!!!   He is telling whomever to write down their memories, keep a journal, so when they age and their memory may fade they will have these pages to look back on, to remind them of these days, and to possibly share these pages with their future children or grandchildren.  Shakespeare seems to have come out of his doom and gloom in this sonnet.  It is simply beautiful, and beautifully written!!!  THIS is the Shakespeare works I so love.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4463 on: September 15, 2016, 10:25:14 PM »
This one is nice isn't it Bellamarie - did not realize the instruction how to save moments till you hit on it - good stuff - Did you receive and us a baby book to keep track of their early development when your babies were born?

I remember when my babies were born and it was still traditional to receive a baby book I did great the first year with my oldest but then I had a second baby before Peter was a year old - writing in books was the last on my list of things to do - after a series of miscarriages 6 years later I had my youngest and looking I cannot even find a book for him - amazing how we think at the time we will remember everything and now I find out you just do not - wish now I took more photos as well - I was of the school enjoy the experience rather than using the time to record what you should be enjoying. Now I do wish I had read this Sonnet back then and taken it to heart.

The part of the poem that struck me however, was how a pocket watch at the time only had an hour hand and not many could afford even that so that sundials were still used and there was a pocket version of a compass with a sundial made from wire - to me that was so appropriate - not only did you get a reading of the time using the sun but you also were pointed to direction - I love the metaphor of checking your direction and hourly time of your life. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4464 on: September 16, 2016, 01:23:47 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXXVIII


So oft have I invok'd thee for my Muse,
And found such fair assistance in my verse,
As every alien pen hath got my use,
And under thee their poesy disperse.
Thine eyes, that taught the dumb on high to sing,
And heavy ignorance aloft to fly,
Have added feathers to the learned's wing,
And given grace a double majesty.
Yet be most proud of that which I compile,
Whose influence is thine and born of thee:
In others' works thou dost but mend the style,
And arts with thy sweet graces graced be;
   But thou art all my art and dost advance
   As high as learning my rude ignorance. 

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj4ELvaXQs0
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4465 on: September 16, 2016, 10:53:22 AM »
Compared to other poets, S. cites their higher levels of education, status, and the 'learned' graces.
He is but an ignorant, unschooled ruffian whose superior poetry outstrips their 'poesy' (such a quaint word, eh?) by virtue of having come into being strictly due to the influence and inspiration he receives via his love for the beloved. HIS muse!
The rest are mere stylists playing with words informed mostly by their learning while claiming access to the beloved as their muse.
And that is what identifies their verse as inferior - it is not derived from the one true thing - TRUE LOVE!!! And he advises the beloved to recognize and remember that.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4466 on: September 16, 2016, 12:47:24 PM »
Yes, Barb I did keep baby record books on all three of my children.  Being a writer, I don't have just baby books, but I have mother's and grandmother's books that I filled out for all my kids and grandkids.  I wrote poems for each of my children and wrote a story to them about the day they were born, and have a gazillion pictures.  They each had a photo book I put together for them from birth to high school graduation, I gave to them at their graduation parties.  I also have individual photo albums for each of my grandchildren as well.  When my first granddaughter graduated high school, I made a dvd with all her events she had participated in throughout her school years, put to her favorite songs.  When we all viewed it as a family before showing it at the graduation party she simply cried, laughed and thanked me a thousand times.  I hope to be able to do the same for all of the grandkids.  I am the family photographer, no one else takes pictures or videos, so they rely on me.  I have stacks and stacks of cds I have transferred all my digital pics onto, not to mention vhs tapes.   I am preparing to submit my children's book I wrote about my first granddaughter. She did all the illustrations for it while she was in jr. high.  It will be a treasure once published!  I'm enjoying, recording as much as I can.  Thank God I did, because when my daughter had a mental breakdown at the age of twenty-five we had to fly to Georgia to help with her medical care, I brought her photo album with me.  Her psychologist and psychiatrist assigned to her case were absolutely overwhelmed with how my daughter responded looking at her pictures of her and our family.  They called it a break through.  I have heard pictures help alzheimer's patients with their memory.  I have tons of journals I have written along the years, but I plan to destroy them, since they were my personal writings.  Not so sure my kids or grands would care about them.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4467 on: September 16, 2016, 02:06:37 PM »
Ah his true love - his muse - with the high accolades we place on his writing it is difficult to think that Shakespeare would think of himself as a ruffian, but as a country boy compared to established London writers I guess so or Leah do you think he was being disingenuous or acting fey... What do you really think...  this is not the first time we have read in these Sonnets that he has a lower opinion of himself as compared to others.

And this Muse - I wonder if he has someone in mind or is it some force almost like the Greek Goddess daughter of Zeus. Whom ever she is he sure penned a pretty 'poesy' didn't he - a lovely poem for as you day words that take us out of the ordinary. Love the line, "Thine eyes, that taught the dumb on high to sing" ...Wow

Bellamarie how special - very special - your story should be shared and the book sounds like the perfect way - wouldn't it be wonderful to get a grant so you could have the book distributed to all new moms at your local hospital. Today we so many photos of cutie activity with youngsters on facebook - seems to me there is a way of having a book put together with your facebook posts. How did you find the time?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4468 on: September 16, 2016, 02:22:52 PM »
Aha - OK Shakespeare was breaking with the times giving all this attention to his Muse and speaking of his love and admiration for another - of course of course had to get online and look up the seventeenth century definition for Muse - came across this bit that does show the other side of how the subject of love was usually written compared to what we are reading in these Sonnets.

"The appetite of English readers in the first half of the 17th century for sermons, devotional works, and commentaries on scripture was robust. They consumed information regarding the defects of their souls as avidly as we consume information regarding the defects of our appearances.

Concern with appearances was, of course, considered a defect of the soul. In the fallen world, the beauty of women was a reminder of Eve’s temptation, Adam’s fatal disobedience, and all the evil and suffering that ensued, down to the martyrdom of Christ.

Pierre Du Moulin’s devotional work Théophile ou l’amour divin describes women’s adornment as Satan’s most deadly weapon. The faithful eye sees through their costume to the Devil’s very image: A soldier having a sword that hath surely served him in many combats, will be carefull to scowre & polish it: and doe we marvell if the woman having served Sathan to overthrow Adam, bee carefully decked & embellished by him; and that women are curious in ornaments by the suggestion of the devil?

Other religious writers, like Jean Senault in Man become guilty, or, The corruption of nature by sinne, according to St. Augustines sense translated into English in 1650, represent love of particular women as slavery, an inversion of the natural order. In his Sixth Treatise, “On the Corruption of all Creatures”, Senault said: Love is an imperious passion, it subjects all those souls which it possesseth, it makes as many slaves as lovers, and reduceth them to a condition wherein having no longer any will, they are not Masters of their desires, they look pale, when in the presence of those that they adore, they tremble when they come neer them, and the Stars have not so much power over their bodies as those whom they love have absolute command over their souls: the object of their love is the cause of all their desire."


And here we have Shakespeare over and over - hmm just thought - many have said his first 100 or so Sonnets are to a man - I wonder - since on stage all the parts are played by men - I wonder if to be safe with his extolling the perfections and beauty about the one he loved if his way around the talk of the day that women were Satin's creature he had to address his passions to a male figure or he would have been tarred and feathered. hmm

Well again, we will never know so ;) fantasy works??? In the meantime we can see how women were considered in seventeenth century papers and books. Sorta remember that but too easily forgotten thinking it was so much bunk...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4469 on: September 16, 2016, 05:04:19 PM »
I propose that it is their own thoughts about the object of their love that is the cause of their desire. Also, that the (Catholic) church (and others, too, I gather) just cannot still the impulse to portray everyone as a sinner and recast an otherwise happy soul into a defective one. It's a control thing.
Perhaps, since The Creator who manifested Eve's beauty (in soul if not in body) to ensure the fulfillment of the Creator's "go forth and multiply" agenda, we might make Him responsible for creating the matrix of Adam's hormone-driven desirous impulses.

I think children learn to take on the characteristics that are suggested to them by the expressed thoughts, actions, and treatment received from their caregivers, teachers, religious persons,etc.
So, I think it is possible that S. learned to demean himself and his gifts. Happens all the time.
Necessity may be the mother of invention, but Repetition is the mother of memory Repetito mater memoriae. and blank slates are bound to be filled with whatever is close to hand.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4470 on: September 16, 2016, 05:59:02 PM »
 :) :D ;D it is their own thoughts about the object of their love that is the cause of their desire. perfect - regardless seventeenth century or today - just perfect...

Had not thought of he being programed to think less of his ability - could be - right in line with the typical Catholic view of your value in life - the Mea culpa, Mea culpa thing that is still going strong. hmm something to think on Leah Thanks 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4471 on: September 16, 2016, 06:09:46 PM »
Leah thought - as perfect as it is to assign proper responsibility I'm thinking we cannot ignore it was the way of things so that it would be the accepted way of thinking and if Shakespeare had other ideas, as his love poems seem to suggest, he could not brazenly say it openly without skirting the issue especially, since he required patronage to continue which means swallowing some of your ideas to please the accepted social viewpoints. And so, I still see him breaking the mold even if he disguised his muse behind a male love figure - Not sure exactly how though since Muse is a goddess however, Shakespeare scholars seem to believe the earlier Sonnets were written to a male love interest - ho hum - still think the guy was brave and original in his thinking about women rather than continuing the thinking of the day that women were like Eve and described as a child of Satan

hmm brings up the entire play The Taming of the Shrew - she does have a soliloquy that speaks of the current view as if it was the best thing since applesauce but then the play shows a more independent Kate and it is considered a Comedy. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4472 on: September 16, 2016, 06:39:02 PM »
Sonnet LXXVIII

Well, it seems Shakespeare has lifted this unnamed love to new heights in this sonnet.  He attributes all his work, and the work of others to have been inspired by this one particular person's beauty and greatness.  As you see in the definition it is a goddess/woman.  He has nearly made her an immortal.  So now who is Shakespeare speaking of?  Most all his sonnets have been directed to his young male love. 

Quote
muse1
myo͞oz/
noun
(in Greek and Roman mythology) each of nine goddesses, the daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne, who preside over the arts and sciences.
synonyms:   inspiration, creative influence, stimulus; formal afflatus
"the poet's muse"
a woman, or a force personified as a woman, who is the source of inspiration for a creative artist.
noun: muse; plural noun: muses
synonyms:   inspiration, creative influence, stimulus; formal afflatus
"the poet's muse"
https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+of+muse&rlz=1C1RNRA_enUS507US507&oq=definition+of+muse&aqs=chrome..69i57.6155j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Leah, 
Quote
I propose that it is their own thoughts about the object of their love that is the cause of their desire. Also, that the (Catholic) church (and others, too, I gather) just cannot still the impulse to portray everyone as a sinner and recast an otherwise happy soul into a defective one. It's a control thing.


Barb,
Quote
Had not thought of he being programed to think less of his ability - could be - right in line with the typical Catholic view of your value in life - the Mea culpa, Mea culpa thing that is still going strong

Not sure this particular Catholic agrees with these views, if anything I see Shakespeare being over zealous and thinking this "muse"/woman, is the inspiration of all poetry, seeing himself pretty high for choosing to love this person.  Just a different point of view, not right or wrong, just different.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4473 on: September 16, 2016, 09:44:23 PM »
He has nearly made her an immortal. He sure has hasn't he Bellamarie - I wonder if folks today when they casually suggest their Muse inspired them to write words or music if they even know Muse was a Greek and Roman Goddess -

Off the subject but I see Bellamarie you use Chrome - what made you switch and have you been using Chrome for awhile now?

And yes, do you remember - I read somewhere the number of these Sonnets that were to a dark lady and the number that were to a male lover - just do not remember - this one he seems to be referring to a Goddess so I am assuming it it written about and to a lady, dark or otherwise.

I purchased some years ago on sale a huge fat tome of all his work - I've read a few of the plays but not all of them and reading these Sonnets, getting more from them than I ever imagined I'm almost thinking that will be a project to take on - just to read the plays - not even go deeply into them but just to learn the storyline and which plays some of the great Shakespearian quote come from. 

This has been such a great conversation mostly because we do not all think alike - I love this - who would have ever guessed these Sonnets would actually bring up topics to examine - this makes me smile - nothing better than getting a viewpoint you would never have thought of - OK onward - actually we have passed the half way point and haa... as of today there is 100 days till Christmas.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4474 on: September 17, 2016, 12:41:49 AM »
Barb, When I first started using the web I used Internet Explorer, I switched when I began using Facebook because most of the games I began playing worked best with Google Chrome.  I have continued using it since.  I do like it much better than any of the others.  It is the #1 web browser being used.

http://beebom.com/best-google-chrome-alternatives/

I actually think I would like to delve into Shakespeare's plays at some later date. I have not read any of his plays, but have been eyeing a book on sale at Barnes and Noble that contains all of his works.   I did not think I would like discussing his sonnets, but have been pleasantly surprised.  Yes, I agree, it would be no fun if we all thought alike.  100 days til Christmas!!!  Oh dear I don't want to even think of Christmas shopping. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4475 on: September 17, 2016, 01:25:18 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXXIX


Whilst I alone did call upon thy aid,
My verse alone had all thy gentle grace,
But now my gracious numbers are decay'd
And my sick Muse doth give another place.
I grant, sweet love, thy lovely argument
Deserves the travail of a worthier pen,
Yet what of thee thy poet doth invent
He robs thee of and pays it thee again.
He lends thee virtue and he stole that word
From thy behavior; beauty doth he give
And found it in thy cheek; he can afford
No praise to thee but what in thee doth live.
   Then thank him not for that which he doth say,
   Since what he owes thee thou thyself dost pay. 

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-j8eVnp91M
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4476 on: September 17, 2016, 09:59:24 AM »
Sonnet LXXIX

But now my gracious numbers are decay'd
And my sick Muse doth give another place.
I grant, sweet love, thy lovely argument
Deserves the travail of a worthier pen,


It seems Shakespeare is ready to move on, thinking writing about his muse is getting worse, and others who do write about her can not write anything other than what she is able to provide them with her beauty. Seems he feels all his best words have been written.  He says she deserves a worthier person to write of her. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4477 on: September 17, 2016, 11:10:19 AM »
Barb- still on Sonnet 78:
"even if he disguised his muse behind a male love figure - Not sure exactly how though since Muse is a goddess..."

Might there be a 'literary device' that describes that type of disguise? Giving consideration to the strict definition of 'muse' as well as the "commonly understood cultural or emotional association" is helpful. The denotation of "muse" is as you say, a woman or goddess, while the connotation could easily stretch to include any feminine type (like a 'pretty boy') or anything or anyone that inspires. I still have the sense that the muse in this case is the male youth rather than a woman.

In the 'muse' vein, there is this http://ryuc.info/common/creation_process/muse.htm

Bellamarie- The dedication and constancy you invested in compiling your numerous family memory albums is truly remarkable and inspiring. You have the quality of Muse!

My remark about the Catholic Church was born out of personal experience and so as you say, we have different views.
Blessed be.

Sonnet 79
Is the poet unable to see that another poet could have the same true depth of constant love - or at least admiration for the beloved that he has? "My verse alone had all thy gentle grace."

"Yet what of thee thy poet doth invent" - Might this be his way of drawing the distinction between his own verse and that of the other poet(s) - he does not need to invent anything about the beloved - what praise his verse contains is organically born of "thy gentle grace."



bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4478 on: September 17, 2016, 11:46:19 AM »
Leah,  You may be on to something with the muse being disguised, or as he sees his young male love as feminine.  The last few sonnets have felt as though he is speaking of a beautiful female figure, but who is to say it is not his young male love? 

Thank you, for the kind words, and yes, I completely understand your personal views come from your own experiences.  No offense taken.  Blessings to you as well. 👼

I get the sense Shakespeare is possibly tiring of writing, and is concerned his poems are not doing him or his muse justice by comparing them to other poets.  He does not seem to want to give other poets credit for their own works by saying they are but copies of his which come only from the inspiration of his muse.  It's as if no one could have the talent to create such poems without the muse's beauty.  For me I find him being a bit insolent. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4479 on: September 17, 2016, 01:34:58 PM »
I found this when searching for info about when the sonnets were published. Seems they might have been intended for a very private audience of friends.
http://www.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/shakespeare/sonnets.html